The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Are the Warriors Really This Good? Plus, Saban and Masters Stories With Tom Rinaldi, and ‘Hightown’ Creator Rebecca Cutter.

Episode Date: November 17, 2021

Russillo shares his thoughts on the Warriors’ 12-2 start to the NBA season (0:33) before talking with legendary reporter Tom Rinaldi of Fox Sports about his long tenure at ESPN, ‘College GameDay,��� the U.S. Open and the Masters, Fox’s ‘Big Noon Kickoff,’ and more (12:17). Then, the creator of the Starz crime drama ‘Hightown,’ Rebecca Cutter, returns to discuss Season 2, balancing character arcs, leading a writers' room, and more (49:40). Finally Ryen answers some listener-submitted Life Advice questions (1:12:32). Host: Ryen Russillo Guests: Tom Rinaldi and Rebecca Cutter Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

today's podcast loaded a little on steph and the warriors the best team in the nba at least by record we'll get into that tom rinaldi on the business of interviewing people also his shift from espn to fox and some saving stories as as well. A lot of stories from Tom. And we've got Rebecca Cutter, the creator show runner of Hightown Season 2 on Stars right now. Love that show. And then Life Advice. I, like a lot of you, last night, as I

was trying to get myself coordinated, watching the Warriors at the Nets. You know, right? I mean, first half, tight. It looked like the Nets didn't want to play LaMarcus Aldridge because they were afraid of the small lineup that the Warriors have been thrown out there against teams. And then the Warriors absolutely put it on them. And the weird thing in that third quarter, too, is that Curry and Wiggins both had four fouls. So I thought there was a chance that we were going to see some sort of run there from the Nets. And that was not the case whatsoever. And this goes back to any of you that listen to me, I don't know, 11, 12, 13 years ago when I started doing podcasts at ESPN for the NBA Today deal. And I used to do Tales from the Couch back then where I would watch part of whatever it was. I think it was Tuesday night because it wasn't as stacked, but I would try to watch all seven games or something like that or at least a good chunk of them, and then tell you everything I did.

It was absurd how much time I put into that. The reason that I bring that up is that what was always one of the early rules on that podcast? It's like the best teams smash you in the third quarters. Right now, that's what the Warriors have been doing. big fans of the net rating by quarter right now for Golden State going into last night is plus 31.7. That's so dumb. It's such a dumb number. It doesn't make any sense. And so Golden State, I think 28, up 28, it could have gotten worse. The Nets shut everything down. And by the way, when you say you don't like the Nets and you want to dump on them and be like, oh, they waved the white flag.

Like, come on. It doesn't mean anything. They probably weren't coming back. Although Stan Van Gundy, I thought, made a good point, which also is one of the reasons why it feels like so many teams get sick of him. But he was like, you know, I really was late to let in the bench because I wanted to make sure we were definitely going to lose this game. And he's like, I know the end of the bench didn't really like me that much.

I'm like, I'm not sure a ton of starters loved you either. But Steve Nash, I think as a player who's still a little closer to it as a former player, is like, we just don't have it tonight. And that's what the Warriors are doing to teams. So let's run through some of the numbers. They're 12-2.

They've got the best point differential by a pretty good chunk in the NBA. They're the number one defensive team by two points compared to the second place defensive team. The other good defensive teams right now in the league, the Clippers, Denver, which when, you know, I almost thought the other night, because I was watching

one of the Nuggets games, and Aaron Gordon was invisible again offensively, and I go, you know, Aaron Gordon's the guy that once you get him in your house you're like, oh. Everybody wanted this guy really badly and then you immediately give him an extension. Now defensively, I'll give it to him because

you can switch. Cerruti's laughing in the background so I have to just let you say something. Are you laughing at but there's two types of people in the world. Those that have watched Aaron Gordon a bunch and those that haven't. And there's one group that likes him a lot better than the other one.

Yeah, I spent years talking myself into what Aaron Gordon could be. And the reality is he's just never going to be what you think or what you want him to be. He's still a valuable player. But when he's running any sort of offense, he's just not that dude. And that's all right.

Yeah, that's it. That's it. He didn't dramatically change who he's going to be offensively, which is the craziest thing because Denver with Jokic, it's it. That's it. He didn't dramatically change who he's going to be offensively, which is the craziest thing because Denver with Jokic, it's kind of the centerpiece of this whole thing.

And seeing him get exposed in certain matchups, which would happen, I think, to Chicago too. But I mean, we're talking about the top five defensive teams in the NBA. It's Golden State,

it's the Clippers, it's Denver, it's Washington, and it's Chicago. The Washington thing is fascinating because there's other people who would argue that Montrez is the reason why Doc Rivers doesn't have a job anymore because in certain matchups you can't have him defensively even though with his energy and his effort and his rebounding and some of the

stuff he does like you watch Montrez some nights you're like everybody would want this guy on the team I still think most teams would but there's going to be matchups where it doesn't really work out the same thing from Jokic certainly the same thing for Vucevic with Chicago but Chicago's backcourt is so good defensively especially when you throw Caruso into the mix. These numbers all make a lot of sense, but what Golden State is doing, this is all about effort and mindset. This is a remarkable basketball team. I'm not telling you they're the best team, and we're going to get to that. I know the record says they're the best team, But what they are doing, just with the way they approach night in and night out those 48 minutes, this is, you don't see this.

That's the story is you don't see this in the NBA, a team playing like this. They're jumping passing lanes. They're switching with focus and communication. They are cutting. And I'm telling you, if you're a basketball coach of young kids, you need to just have them all sit and watch a Warriors game together and focus on one thing. Don't focus on the shots going in or Steph doing his deal

or the Gary Payton second dunks or any of that stuff or Draymond. Focus strictly on if you keep cutting, good things will happen. And it's just not cool to keep cutting all the time in the NBA. You're like, I'm going to cut? Why would I do that? I don't want to do that. I'm awesome. I'm a max player.

I fight over a screen all night? I don't want to do that. And that's the people that don't love the NBA that point out that stuff. I'll tell you, I don't think every single defensive end is bringing it on all 70 snaps, and I have no problem with that. I've seen a few guys give away at bats, too. The NBA probably gets a little bit too much shit for some of the things that I don't love.

But again, if that's who you are as a player and all the habit, like it's a perfect example of the Nets. Bembry and Mills fighting like crazy over screens. The other guys, nah, I'm not going to do it. So when two of the five out there are busting it, and I still think Durant's really good defensively when he needs to be. Harden has no interest other than that one post-possession

where then the announcer's like, this guy defensively is much better than people realize. You're like, no he isn't. Golden State is showing up like this college team that watched Hoosiers three times and they're a 14 seed playing like a three or something. That's how Golden State goes into this. Because talent-wise, after Steph and certainly Draymond's effort has been great this year,

his passing and all that kind of stuff. But if you look at this roster, this is not the kind of roster that should have the best record in the NBA. So the biggest thing of this is, and I've told you what the numbers are, offensively as well, they're number three. Number one is Utah. Number two is Philly, where that number is going to, I don't know when that's going to start progressing more and more. They've lost five straight.

Their effort, they played 13 guys in the first half last night, and the game was actually close. I mean, they're bringing along Kaminga and trying to develop this lottery pick on top of a team that has the best record because here's the thing. Are they this good? If you're new to this podcast, I'm a bit of a Steph Curry fan. I'm a bit

of a Warriors fan for the sense that I love seeing Steph do well. I don't have shirts at home and stuff. I think I have a Chris Mullen jersey from back in the day. But I don't think they're this good. Are you kidding? Like, think of the teams. And this is when you're, if you're watching a talk show,

you say, all right, so does this make the Warriors the favorite to win the title? Are they the favorites in the West? I mean, let's not forget about who Brooklyn could be. We can also remind ourselves of how terrible some of those defensive numbers were for Brooklyn last year, and it meant nothing. I'm not writing off Milwaukee anytime soon. Phoenix doesn't get any love for a team that won the West last year.

I feel like they're completely under the radar. They started off bad. Have you watched them lately? They're good, and they've got a little bit more depth up front because I thought it was criminal. They didn't have a backup to Aiton last year. It might have changed the finals. If they'd had one guy who played center for like a couple million bucks, they could give you 20 minutes. Hell, 15 minutes a night in the finals. Utah, we've talked about Utah. We know the record is going to be really good. I'm actually disappointed the record is what it is.

Some of it's scheduling and that kind of stuff. Mitchell, I think, missed a game or two. And then the L.A. part of this, I'm holding off on all this until LeBron comes back because the Lakers right now are... I mean, if you hate the Lakers, then you're having a blast watching this team play because they're terrible. But I'm not ready to go without Klay. This team, NBA teams like this don't win titles. Now, if you're going to tell me with Clay back

and the uncertainty in the West that it's a foregone conclusion, I would say that that's even a little aggressive, but you could counter and say, hey, you know what? 16 years, or excuse me, 2015, 2016, we're not talking that many years ago, five, six years ago,

this team pre-Durant was pretty good with Clay, with Steph, and with Draymond. Yes, younger. Harrison Barnes, a decent enough fourth outlet if you needed somebody to make a shot, which was a huge problem because they didn't have enough depth after you max out guys like Draymond, Klay, Steph, and Durant, which again, you max

those guys out and you don't worry about depth. But there were some other pieces that were somewhat capable. Sean Livingston, Iguodala, maybe Iguodala back. As a guy that loves what he's seen from this organization over the last few years, I'm not. I'm not going to go there

and start picking this team as the undisputed champ because without Klay, Klay comes back, it's a different conversation. But without Klay, these are not the kinds of teams that win championships. And it also leads to the Steph stuff because the guys did it on TNT where it's like, hey, can we say he's the best in the world? Kenny Smith's like, I did this week.

And Charles is like, no, you didn't. I don't know who to believe on this one. We update this constantly. Steph is, I think without question, the best teammate you can have in the NBA over the last 20 years. The only thing that separates LeBron and Steph as best teammate

is that Steph probably isn't trying to get you traded every year to make his team better. So tiebreaker goes to Steph on that one. But as the biggest Steph fan ever, I'll admit even I am a little surprised that they are this good because even though I like the role pieces, after Draymond, and Draymond's kind of been that hybrid role star guy

because I don't think he's a star somewhere else. We're talking about like another eight role players who are all playing really intense focused fun great basketball what do you want to do but that is not the profile of a team where you should be on a tv show today saying they're going to win an nba title especially with the uncertainty of what clay will look like when he comes back he comes back then that's a different story. But this team right now, fun, but this is not a great basketball team. Football wouldn't be the game we know

and love without a few surprises. The surprise is this week, the bad teams. Now, this has been going on for a little while, going back to when Jacksonville beat the Buffalo Bills, which I still think, even though we see the Bills the two seed in the AFC behind 8-2 Tennessee, I think there's a lot of us that still maybe buy in the Bills

a little bit more than the Titans. And then they lose to a Jacksonville team that I don't think had won on American soil, which is an amazing stat to have. They're like, all right, is there anything going on here? And then we saw that continue just a week ago with Baltimore losing at Miami. A Miami team that looked like they were lost

as Baltimore felt like they were starting to figure some things out. Maybe not so much defensively, but you didn't think the Dolphins were going to light you up in prime time. And then we have a Monday night game where the L.A. Rams, another favorite for a Super Bowl spot out of the NFC, just getting blasted by San Francisco, who lost to all the backups with Arizona just a week prior at home. And San Francisco hadn't won a home game. So the surprisingly great performances have been the bad teams this season. And sometimes you just get a shout-out. I don't know that it means anything other than a bunch of good fan bases

are asking questions about their team this week. Since we're talking about all things surprisingly great, we've got to shout out to Good Neighbors of State Farm for offering surprisingly great rates. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Get a quote today. If you interview people for a living, he'll probably make you jealous. If you watch them on a Saturday morning, he might make you cry. And if you're lucky enough to meet him, he will definitely make you smile. Tom R watch them on a Saturday morning, he might make you cry. And if you're lucky enough to meet him, he will definitely make you smile. Tom Rinaldi is our guest. What's up?

Who wrote that? Who wrote that for you? Were you in touch with Hallmark there for that intro? Wow, Brian, I feel honored. I'm telling you, man, like this is one I'm a little more geared up for. I just want to, I want to give it that Rinaldi sauce on it. But it's all true. Or sap, some might suggest, right? Not me, but some. No, you're at Fox Sports now, and congratulations. I know that probably wasn't difficult.

Was that difficult for you? I mean, it's difficult to leave a place that you love and that you've been for 19 years. And I'll always love ESPN. But as I've said, to my family, to my friends, and to some others who asked, Ryan, I'm grateful for the next. There's so many wonderful things I had the opportunity to do at ESPN, not the least of which hang with Scotty every springtime in a house in Augusta. Him, Andy North, Mike McQuaid, and myself will let the mental picture form. And those were great experiences.

But now the chance to do not only Saturdays, but Sundays, the chance to do the World Cup, the chance to do some features to the World Series. I'm just so grateful. And I'll always love ESPN, but so far things have just been tremendous at Fox. How many years at ESPN for you? 19.

Wow. 19 years. Yeah. Okay. Let's do the Augusta experience because I was lucky enough to go once. And I have questions. But the housing part of it, because there's just limitations. Anybody's ever been there.

It's not easy to get a bunch of guys in a house. And essentially, you would rent a family's house and whoever was lowest on the totem pole got the bunk bed. So was that you and Van Pelt? No, no. So the homes, we were fortunate. We stayed in the same house, Ryan, for over a decade. By the way, we often believe when we came back and continued to see the endless improvements to the property, how much are we financing of this perennial improvement campaign at this residence? So we wondered about that. Those are just some of the great times I had. Not only Augusta National is extraordinary, the Masters is such an incredible event. The days are really long in golf, but then to come back after they're done, everybody hanging out,

just talking, having a drink, laughing, rehashing the day. With Scott, you never know where the conversation is going to go. Mike McQuaid, one of the most brilliant minds in all of TV. conversation's going to go. Mike McQuaid, one of the most brilliant minds in all of TV. You never know what you're going to get from him. Andy and his wife, Susan, who's fantastic. Andy North. Those are just great, great times. Like you said, you had one opportunity to come. What did you make of Augusta, Ryan, versus what did you think versus what you experienced? Okay. Well, you're a big part of that experience because I went with a college roommate who had been hounding me and he goes, Hey, is there any way? And I was never a big, you know, sometimes I hear stories about other people. I'm like, maybe I should just start asking for stuff all the time. Like I would hear about

something like, Oh, I'm going to the world series. I'm like, how'd you get world series tickets? And they go, I just asked somebody and you know, they gave them to me and you're like oh all right and then i don't know i just i don't like really asking favors and then my friend kept it was like three or four years he goes hey look um let's make this happen so he he found a house out in one of those lakes in one of those neighborhoods and we rented it with like four or five people and then uh espn did hook me up man um because i went to him said is there any way i can do this and they gave me the wednesday thursday friday saturday passes because van pelt was like that move is get out of there on saturday don't go to sunday because trying to

get out of there sunday monday is a disaster um and he goes on wednesday so much fun and they gave me the passes you can go in and out i, back then up to five times. And then on top of everything else, the Double Eagle Club, shout out, where you pull your car in. I mean, look, we got totally hooked up. I would never have paid for this on my own. And then they host you, and you just go and food and drink and video games and golf sims and all sorts of stuff going on. And it was great for us because we were the youngest people by like 30 years.

So we were like, oh, hey, what's up with these rowdy young guys? We're like, we're in our 40s. So anyway, to set the scene, you walk in and as high as your expectations are, they can't be high enough because it exceeds them all. And the no phone thing and how they treat everyone. Once you're through the gates, they want you to feel that special. It's almost like, Hey, you made it. You're here. And now that you're here, you're going to, we want you to have the ultimate experience. And I'm not even the biggest golf guy. And I didn't want to leave. I gave the Saturday passes to my college roommate. Cause I'd gotten a couple less. And I said, Hey, I know how important this is to you and some of the other guys. So I'm going to leave the Saturday passes to you.

When I left, I didn't want to leave. I was kind of like, man, I shouldn't have done that because this is that much fun. And the best part is what I'm building to here is as we're walking in, we go to the practice tees and there's Tom Rinaldi. And my friends, after we walked away, after Tom goes, OK, what you need to do first is you need to walk the course backwards and understand. And then you're going to want to, you know, and he just, Tom took us through this five minute thing and no one said a word. And then in particular, Sully, the one guy's like, was that real? Is that really what he's like?

I go, yep, that's what he's like. And it was unbelievable. So Tom, you were a big part of setting the tone for the entire week because my friends were just blown away by your presentation. It was as if you were on TV. And I was like, that's the difference between like some guys that are on TV and guys that are superstars like Rinaldi. The only signature thing about that experience in my sharing with your friends is it probably could have been said or 20 or 30 seconds. But with my hushed tone and over overly precious delivery it took five minutes so those are four and a half minutes you probably could have enjoyed

actually out on the course as opposed to talking to me i'm not bsing you it was one of my it's serious my friends still talk about it they're like that was one of the most amazing things it was like being on tv as rinaldi's explaining everything that's going on um i had another oh wait wasn't it wasn't it once green he did the masters he just refused to stay in the house he was like no i'm not staying with anyone else i i didn't i was unaware of that just as a quick as a quick follow-up um uh if people who are listening ever get the opportunity, I think you said it perfectly, Ryan, right? That people can build things up and anticipate them. And anticipation is a wonderful element in life, right? I'm a big believer in having the next flag planted on the horizon. And then when you get to that, get the next one out there on the horizon and work toward it.

get the next one out there on the horizon and work toward it. I've never met anybody from any walk of life who loves golf, doesn't love golf, likes sport, doesn't like sport, whose expectations were not exceeded by going. And whether that is the fact that for all the hard work that ESPN and CBS do to try to capture the grounds, the undulation still eludes all the great camera work. As soon as you see the valley off the opening tee and coming back up the hill and how narrow that landing area is, the fact that the sandwiches cost $2.50, that landing area is. The fact that the sandwiches cost $2.50. The fact that miraculously, somehow, you never see any squirrels around, despite all the trees. There's so many aspects of it that I just think are special. And I think it becomes a special experience that families can share and friends can share. And I know I love golf. I always will. It's one of the central

parts of my bond with Scott, who I absolutely love, but it just is a special place. I know that can sound hollow and it can ring hollow maybe to the cynic, but it would shake the rust even off a cynic, I think. Yeah. Look, I'm a perfect example of that because I'd be like, all right, this is going to be great. And then usually after two days, I'm like, all right, I'm good. I can move on. I mean, the fact that on Thursday and Friday, people put down their chairs, they put it right by the, what are we talking about? The dog leg there on 13. Is it 13 when you're coming back up and you walk up and the chairs are empty and you just sit in them. And if the owner of the chair comes back, you go, oh, okay, you're in my chair.

I'll be like, oh, great. Thanks for letting us sit here. Yeah, no problem. It's weird. It's not to be vulgar, but it's almost like, you know, whenever you have enough people in one area, there's eventually like 10% of them are just going to be assholes and selfish about everything. And it's almost as if once you get through those gates, everybody decides collectively, like, let's all be really nice to each other in attendance of this. So it's, it's, again, it's unlike anything I've ever been to. I'm not the biggest golf guy. I put it in the top five events. As far as your relationship with the tour, how different is it

being around individuals than say covering teams? Like you're great with college coaches, but you're with a team for the week. And I'm going to get to some of that stuff too. I love some of your tennis stuff, which I also want to touch on because there's one question you asked somebody that I thought was brilliant. But the golf world, the camaraderie of it is way beyond anything that I ever understood. And Scott would always explain it to me. And then I started to get to know it a little bit more. But how is it covering that? And I don't know that you were ever under the pressure of breaking stories, but you also knew what was going on. So how do you build those relationships and how is that different compared to just covering teams? You know, Ryan, there's no

approximation for experience, for time spent together. And a tour is a traveling circus. And while I certainly never did 25 events in a year or anything close, like somebody like our great friend Steve Sands does, who I think is unequaled in the business. spot, Ryan, where you're the guy that speaks to somebody in or near the lead, or even perhaps more challenging, who's lost the lead, or who's lost the championship late on a given day at a big event. They're just, if those, over time, those naturally create, not the bond, you've heard me use this line a hundred times. It's not like I'm going whitewater rafting next weekend with these guys, but there is something that happens in sharing those moments together year after year after year, not in terms of having it be a one-off. I also think covering individual sport is fascinating because of the dynamic, right? Yeah. You may have your team around you, physio, the people that support you,

your agent, your teacher, but you're the man in the arena. And when something goes wrong, uh, and when something goes right, you own it, right? You and your caddy. And I just think that golf is such a fascinating sport to cover because of how mental it is, right? The action is 2% of the time you're on the course, but the consequence that you have to live with the 98% of its aftermath or the anticipation of the next shot. I remember Paul Azinger using a great analogy and saying like holding the third round lead, Ryan, is like, okay, we seem like we're getting toward the end of the fourth quarter in an NBA game, very tight.

You're at the foul line. Referee comes and takes the ball from you and says, we're going to turn the lights out now. Come back tomorrow. Come back in 20 hours and take this shot. That's what golf is over four days. It's a fascinating dynamic, and it's filled with fascinating, quirky, really interesting athletes, I think.

Yeah, Scott would teach me that all the time, whether we were talking about on the air or off the air, and obviously we're pretty close, but he would just say just say hey anybody can shoot a number on a day and like you see thursday friday numbers and then it's like can you go to bed though can you go to bed and come back and do it for four and he's like that's why you see the same guys at the top although i would argue the depth of the last few years the number of guys that can win uh is probably beyond any time certainly that i can remember, I'm not locked into the sport the way you guys are, but I think the depth of options of,

of winners just with the talent across the board is probably unlike any other time we've seen her. Right. And it's got great young talent. It's got great young champions. You know, we're all potential is a word which has caused more coaches to be fired and more sports,

more GMs to lose their jobs, more people who surround teams and try to build them than any other word. That word at the end of the day in an individual sport, Ryan, that word is a totally different meaning. You either met it or you didn't. You last on tour or you don't. You're a journeyman or you're a champion or you lose your card. Potential has a different meaning in an individual game. And in golf, I think you see potential met a lot of times early. And if it's not met early, it becomes increasingly difficult, right?

You wear that terrible yoke. Best to never. Best to never. Brutal yoke to wear. And we're seeing a lot of these young guys, they shed that yoke fast. I mean, we can tick off the names easily. Great young players in their 20s

winning or vying for majors. Okay, different sport, tennis. I don't want to mess it up, but I was watching the Marty Fish doc, and we still plan on having Marty on. I would say he's, I don't want to call him a friend, but we're at least text-worthy friends. And I really enjoyed it. It kind of gave me a little bit more perspective on Marty and the Andy Roddick part of it.

Fascinating. Fascinating look. And there's a clip in there where Roddick's basically retiring at the U.S. Open. And that's your interview. I think I have it word for word but i'd rather you what was that question that you asked to rot it to set it up do you remember what it is because it's brilliant i i don't think i actually asked a question i think it was one of those times i think it's one of those times where and i know it violates the precepts that some teach i i never think anything is meant to be inviolable, right? It's a rule,

not a law, right? Big difference between the two. And I think I just said to him, it's your moment. It's your microphone. That's exactly what you did. Okay. So I, you're right. I shouldn't have prefaced it as a question, but you know, the setup to it. All right. When did it dawn on you? This is how I'm going to handle this. I think probably just in the moment right you know i i have screwed up so many interviews over time and it took me such a long time i think and i still do screw them up all the time but the tennis uh interviews are unique because they play to the house and that's different than than any other. I guess every once in a while,

Ryan, I don't know, maybe what's the last time you were in an NBA arena? Every once in a while, they're nimble enough to take the post-game interview right away to the house. But even there, people are leaving, they're streaming out. Most times in tennis, people have a real appetite, a desire to hear from the individual player. They've just devoted 90 minutes, two hours, three hours to watching. They want it, in a way, paid off by hearing the athlete speak, let alone the stakes of Roddick in that moment. So you're playing to the house as well as to millions more who are watching at home so you didn't have so good tom that you you didn't say like all right three days before when he's done you just were kind of like looking around and you're right to point out

the u.s open audience is you know as much as we're raving over the masters which it deserves the u.s open thing is completely different for a bunch of other awesome reasons where you know it's new york city it's it's tennis it's i you know i remember reading agassi's book which was incredible open and i you know i always kind of wonder like i'm not any good but i played and you just sit there and you're like all right i'm winning this fucking point i'm winning this point and you're like driving yourself crazy then you lose your point you're like okay all right that's it all right point. You're like, okay, all right, that's it. All right. Now there's nothing, no matter what I'm doing, I'm doing this and I'm just going to make sure I get it back and on and on. And again,

I'm not any good. And Andre Agassi is talking about it saying, um, that's why most tennis players are psychopaths because they spend the entire time talking to themselves for three something hours. And there's no one to share that, but there's no caddy. There's no teammates. And have you, have you noticed that? Did you notice that with tennis players that again, nobody's sitting here acting like they're middle linebackers, but there's this mental edge, this unpredictability about them that is, is kind of unlike a lot of other things that I'm sure you've covered. Oh, absolutely. And we could just go down. I'll share just one anecdote with you to show you how remarkable maybe the tennis mind is.

I would do these sit down interviews, Ryan, with tennis players at the, on the eve of the tournament. You would do it Saturday. If they were starting Monday, Sunday, if maybe they were playing Tuesday at the beginning of the US Open. One particular year, I was caught up with another obligation. I was supposed to interview Stan Wawrinka and I got there late. So the producer, great, great guy, Pete Holterman, who would help with the players and works the big events in tennis, started to do the interview. And he was almost done. I snuck in. And at the very end, Pete could sense that I was there over

his shoulder. And to sort of jab me, he said, you know, and finally, just one more question. I've been building up to this entire time, Stan, how much better was it to be interviewed by me versus Rinaldi? And so, Wawrinka, by the way, how mind-blowing, right? Multilingual, like so many of these players are from Europe and other parts of the world, doesn't even blink. And he says, sort of nods and waits a beat a beat and says different not better he goes on to win the u.s open that year he goes on to win it uh and i i don't know if i did the trophy that year the men's i only did the men's once i think i don't know if it was that year but i know i I was courtside. And he wins the U.S. Open. He's sitting like boxing, Ryan. It's the only event where you don't leave.

If you've lost, you stay in the arena. And there's so much drama there, right? I mean, if your emotions are getting the best of you, you're burying your head in your towel. Everyone is looking at the winner and the loser. Vavrinka gestures me over. As we're waiting for the stage to be constructed or whatever, it takes two, three minutes. I go and I say, congratulations. All he does is he pulls me inside and he just says, different, not better.

What a time to not be like, where's that? Just sit back and enjoy it, man. You're not even one of the main guys. I mean, I'm not like that's an incredible accomplishment. And he didn't know he, he was joyful and happy. Oh, so he was joking and referencing back when he was... He was joking and referencing back to there. Just to say, the way that these guys think

and the fact that he would even remember that at that pinnacle moment is astounding. That's okay. That's crazy. I was in your defense sort of reading it the wrong way. Not at all. No, that's pretty funny. That's funny that it would dawn on you that way. All right.

I have an industry question. It's something as a college game day radio host, it was certainly a different level of success than the host of the actual TV show. I traveled for six years. I'd see you guys out on the road. And I would, before our seven-hour radio show, a lot of times same location in a different setup,

I would go over to watch a TV show and I would do it to kind of get my adrenaline up, knowing I got to carry seven hours of a radio show, right? And I like everybody on the show. You know, peak Fowler years. I just don't know if people truly understand what this guy was doing as a television host. He's different. You want to talk, people throw around built different all the time.

Fowler is just different than everyone. And he is, he's a monster in the best possible way. So then I feel like the show is, as somebody who watched it in college, it was my Saturday routine. And then I'm on the road again. It's like my little radio gig over there but i would go and you know i'd be around everybody all the time to then after i was done with the radio part of it and then i found myself consuming it a little differently because i was like hey i can't do another extra two hours while i'm going to be here on my couch

for 13 watching games but i felt like there was a push for the longer form storytelling. And I think others would agree. I'm sure you would, too, is that the storytelling veered towards sadness a lot. And I'm wondering, was that a conscious programming decision? Because the data told you not that these stories weren't worth telling. So please don't take this the wrong way. I just felt like there's a lot of this now in the rundown for a three-hour show. There has to be some research that says time spent watching is longer because you have to see the payoff, the redemptive arc of these stories,

because it went from maybe one a week to what felt like a lot of it. And a lot of those stories were things you did an amazing job with, but I felt like that had to be partly a programming decision as well. Just a theory. I don't. It's a fascinating theory. But I think it gives those architects of the show. Lee Fitting at the time was brilliant. Respectfully, that was never brought up.

Wow. Features are brought up. Here's what I would respectfully submit to you, that if you actually took a season's worth of storytelling content, whether it be a big noon kickoff where we're telling the stories now, we certainly hope people watch from 10 to noon on Fox or on game day, you would see, Ryan, that there's a balance of the he's good, the she's good, the lighter story, and the heavier story. I would submit that what people perhaps fail to recognize is that it's that heavier story that is more memorable. And even though by volume, there's an equality, there is a disproportion of meaning

and memorability to those stories. And I realized it's become, I guess, I'm not on any social media. I don't really traffic in, I think, what critics have to say or what have you, but I think there is at times a thought, Ryan, that, you know, that these stories are wrong to tell or there are too many of them. Or I hear terrible terms suggested to me like, you know, tragedy porn or things of that nature. And I would just suggest you always have the right not to watch. You always have the right to click away. Yeah, I'm not going there. At the end of the day, there's many, many ways for a story to reach the metric that matters most, which is given that it's accurate and fair, that it's memorable, that the story is memorable. And one of them without question, Ryan, is

did it move you? Sitting in a chair with nothing else happening other than consuming something on a screen, did it stir you? Did it touch you? Did it move you? you? Did it move you? Much more difficult, by the way, in this troika are, did it surprise you very hard? And then the hardest, did it shift your lens? Did it change the way you look at something? Did it give you a different understanding of something? That's the hardest. They're all of great value. And so being moved by a story, I would suggest that creates a memorable moment for the viewer. And even though there are many good stories that are happy or that are about a player being terrific or that, like you said, have a redemptive arc stories with i think sometimes with a gravity or loss in them tend to be memorable and powerful yeah it's a great point the retention of something

like that is going to be far different than say minnesota illinois breakdown which is you know why i you know but i know what i like and i think it's a really good, because I don't want to sit here and spend the time about the past, because I love the big noon show on Fox. I look at that show as, look, I'm a meat and potatoes guy when it comes to sports. I want to know what you think. I want you to either change my mind or teach me, or I want you to, you know, I, I don't, I don't care about the bullshit shows. I don't like the clown shows. Um, and certainly college game day isn't any of those things, but I feel like college game day for 25 years has gotten bigger and bigger, bigger. It's like the mega show that's never going anywhere, but it's like, Hey, can we throw in,

you know, let's, let's have, let's have Webster stop by, you know what I mean? Like let's, we're, we're throwing so many things. It's hard to get your arms around it now where I feel like when I look at the Big Noon show, Big Noon kickoff show, this is what game day was in its beginning. And I kind of miss that. And I hope no one thinks I'm being necessarily

critical, but that's why I'm kind of I'm back and probably I'm probably a little bit closer with a bunch of guys from the Fox show, so maybe that's what it is. But do you see that? Do you see what I'm talking about on I'm probably a little bit closer with a bunch of guys from the Fox show. So maybe that's what it is. But do you see that? Do you see what I'm talking about on the timeline of shows where I feel like the Fox show is a very, very straightforward show and game day has so much money put into it and the sponsorship part of it.

So it's, there's a lot of moving pieces, which I get are by design for profit for the company, which I'm not, you know, obviously I'm not an idiot. I get what the whole point of all this stuff is. Listen, I loved my time at Game Day.

It's a tremendous show. It's an institution on Saturday mornings. I'm thrilled to be at Big Noon. In so many ways, there's an excitement to the show. It's building. It's building its place and its identity. Here's an example when it comes to story. I don't know how many people are actually watching the end, not the highlight now, in real time, watching the end of Kansas, Texas. And so here you have, right? Cause it's so mind blowing to think that Kansas

at Texas, I don't care how down Texas is, is going to beat Texas. And then, you know, Lance decides, you know what? We're, we're, we're defense is gas. We're going for two. They go for two and the kid that catches the pass, Ryan, I know you know this story already now. It's his first catch of his career after getting his first snaps on offense as a walk-on redshirt freshman from Plainville, Kansas, town of 1800. And his parents have driven 10-plus hours, not knowing if he'll get on the field other than for punt coverage. And they're on the other end of the stadium.

And the mom films it, and it's seen by 1.2 million viewers or something like that now. So we go to Kansas to do that story. All right. And that'll be on big noon. And all I'll say is in asking, in asking that player, Jared Casey to watch the video that his parents filmed on their cell phone. Just watch it. That's a reason to tell stories in college for the fall. I just want people to see if they tune into Big Noon, this player's reaction to his parents' reaction to his moment.

Catching that pass. There's just something magical about the aspiration of college football. Of course it's got challenges, Ryan. We know that, right? I mean, it's a massive institution with huge, huge dollars attached. But there's aspiration at its core. And sign me up for that. Hey, I'm with you. I have a lot of problems with some of the stuff.

I have problems with these buyouts. I have a problem with all the TV money. I have a problem with everybody telling the kids there's not enough money, there's not enough money. I have a problem with almost all of it, but it doesn't mean I want it gone. And that's where I think it got weird the last couple of years

where I kept hearing people talk about college sports. I'm like, you don't even like it. It's so clear you like, you want it to be just destroyed to prove some point. And I would just like it to improve because I still think there's incredible opportunities, not only for young kids, but there's also incredible opportunities

for what you just described. That's a wholesome moment. Like you can't be cynical about that moment. And that's you. That's like, again, brand, whatever. I know this is all real from you. I know that it moves you. I remember the first time we met,

I think it was in Chicago and we were checking into like, I think it was Big Ten week or something. And I don't know, I was just around and I ran into you and I was like, how's it going? And it was like, great. And then I just went right in.

I was like, fucking place. And then you just listened to me and you went, Ryan, it's going to be okay. You're like, Ryan, you're, you're in Chicago for the week. You have friends that care about you. Your family. Yeah. Can you stop please you were you were i'm i'm summarizing in a way that we had sort of we had known each other through what we did but we didn't

know each other and in that moment you were like you just were earnest tom earnest we're not and i mean these if you're looking at me right now, like these are insults, these are compliments. I almost feel like your personality profile is a rarity in a business that after a while, most people go, ah, you know, this place, you know, most people kind of look at the world the way I do. And I think that your storytelling is a direct representation of the way you see the world. I'm serious about that. I don't think that that's very common. way you see the world i'm serious about that i don't think that that's very common you know we did a we did a uh we had a sit down with nick saban last week that aired right and so yeah people have strong opinions about nick saban i get it and here's one i mean here's one story that he tells one and again i know the story because i story because I've been around him and covered him for 15

and 17 years, whatever it may be. You probably get criticism. I think Dabo doesn't like how close you are with it. Dabo, I'm going to give you a hard time. He used to call it the Alabama show. So I know the story as I ask him the question. I said, there's still

a lot that people don't necessarily know about you. When's the last time you were in the bottom of a coal mine? You grew up in coal mining country in West Virginia. And sure enough, he tells the story. He's in eighth grade. He remembers the name of the teacher. It's music class. And Ryan, he refuses to get up and sing in front of the class, which is an assignment. Every student is expected to get up and sing. And he refuses. And he gets a D.

He brings the D home. And his father says to his mother, get his basketball uniform, turn it in. He's done with basketball for the season. And the next day he takes Nick. His dad doesn't work in a coal mine. He owns a filling station, but he knows people. That's the town. And he goes to a coal mine and he goes to the bottom of the mine with his son.

And he goes to the bottom of the mine with his son. And he says to him, this is where you're going to spend the rest of your life if you don't care enough about school. And a D means you don't care. Take a look around. They eventually come up. He never went back in a coal mine ever again. Stories are great. How about this?

We ended. I didn't even get it in. We didn't get it in. I know that some people who know him know this do you know that after every game after he gets someone addressing the team the media handling the recruits everything else when he gets in the car to drive home he listens to the same song same song give me shelter by the stones it's just i i can't i love the anecdotes i love the stories i just i was gonna get slammed by by onyx but that makes a little bit more sense um you know what's funny is i just had a massive flashback i remember my first bad grade i got in grade school my dad we filled up we were filling up his truck and he pointed at the guys pumping our gas was like

that's gonna be fucking you if you keep getting these kinds of grades he's like you want to pump gas for the rest of your life he's like that's gonna be you i was i was like well i'll never forget it we were in the truck i was like jeez i was like i don't know you're outside he's like you say hi to people you know no no no god no i i was i was just like please drop me off at school this sucks this sucks right now. I was pretty young, but I'd never forget it. I'm still sitting here now thinking about it as you started telling that story. I was like, that's the same.

We didn't have any coal mines to check out back then. No, same thing. There'll be these moments. Is there anyone that doesn't like you? Is there someone in the business that you've interviewed where you're like, you know what? Probably assign somebody else here. I don't know how much you want to share the story. You're a top professional, but I'd love to dig into that if you have it.

Definitely. That's a great question. And I do think there were folks certainly earlier on in my career and maybe right now there were coaches, certainly some NBA coaches. Jerry Sloan did not like me. Barry Sloan did not like me. When I was working at CNNSI, Ryan, I remember I covered a playoff game. He got thrown out of the game for double technicals. And Thurl Bailey, God bless him, said to me in the locker room, I think that coach just did that to get us fired up. We were lethargic and he wanted to give us

a spark and he showed he was fighting for us and and so it was a lockout shortened season i believe and i went back and you know he's out of the presser and i'm standing there and he doesn't know me from adam and i related i said coach i was talking to Thorbelli and he said that he thought maybe there was some theatrics involved in getting the second technical to try to spark the team. And he looked at me and he said, you don't watch us all 82 games, do you? Like you're not around this team or around me, are you? Something like that. That's not exactly what he said, but something like that. And I said

something like, well, coach, there were only 50 games in the regular season. That sealed it. So I don't think Jerry Sloan appreciated me very much. Tom's got Chiefs and Cowboys, which should be fun. And make sure you give the big new kickoff show on Fox a chance,

starting at 10 Eastern every Saturday. You may remember from last year, Hightown came out on Starz, and I immediately loved it because uh it reminded me of home uh i'm from martha's vineyard a little different than anywhere on the cape but there are some real similarities and rebecca cutter is the creator showrunner and uh incredible incredible person behind this show we're in season two it's on stars about five episodes in and uh let's talk about it so it's good to talk to you again how are you i'm great thank you so much for having me and you know thanks for watching this yeah well

look i mean it it's whatever we covered the first time around i was like this is exactly what it's like it's back to that thing like exactly the target audience like a guy yeah his vineyard so perfect um the the un like the part of it that is not on brand the off-season blue collar element that nobody seems to get unless you're from there where it's not just people walking around in dock siders uh arguing over their yachts and where they're going to park them so um what i love immediately about it is i feel like everybody's even a better version of themselves in season two i'm not sure you get that with every show, especially some of the premium shows like this one. Have you, I'm sure you noticed it.

You wouldn't disagree with me here, but whether it's Jackie, whether it's Ray, whether it's Renee, all of the characters are like a very comfortable version of who they've become off of what they built in season one. Yeah, well, I think every character switched positions. Like, you know, Ray was like this cocky cop season one, and now he's down in the dumps.

And Jackie was this hot mess season one. Now she kind of has her shit together, and she's getting into a real relationship, and she's a cop. But these actors are so good that they just took these changes into stride and built it into what they'd already built. And it feels so real,

and they all feel like, oh shit, this depth of character. So that's the acting for sure. And I think Ray's nailing the kind of dirtbag state trooper. He's nailing it now in a way where it feels like he's more comfortable. I mean, it's not just the accent and everything else. He feels like a lot of guys I know. Yeah. And James Badge Dale to his part.

I mean, he's like, you know, he's arguably one of the more famous actors on the show and he's has such a long career, but like, he's a real dude in real life. I mean,

he's just like, so not down and dirty, like in a bad way, but like, he's just, he's a real guy. And I think he's really comfortable doing that lived in that's not an act so i think that's a really great melding of character and and actor how much did

you have um i don't know if it worked from a pitch i know we talked before you wrote the pilot and an agent was like hey we could probably get this done um so i don't know what the pitch process let me just go back to that what What was the pitch process for this? So I wrote it, like you said, I wrote it on my own. CAA was like, I was like, it's just a sample. Don't get any high hopes. And they're like, no, I think we can sell this. So we went out and J.B.

Jerry Bruckheimer TV came on board and we went out. And we basically, we did a very small pitch. It's called a drop-off pitch. It's when you already have a script script so you're just basically like going in and doing a little razzle dazzle to make them read the script um so it's like a 10-15 minute pitch kind of pretty much just me saying like how you know why am i the person to write this you know what what should make what makes me passionate about it what should make you passionate it? Why is this a good idea for a show? And then let the script speak for itself.

How much of season two, season three did you already have down? At that time? Yeah. Not very much. But early on in the writer's room of season one, I knew where it was going. And therefore, season two has to be X. early on in the writer's room of season one, I knew where it was going and like,

therefore season two has to be X, you know, if the, if the grass is going up for this character in season one, it has to be going down in season two. So you kind of know automatically that that leads you to certain places. Is there, you know,

I'm not going to ask if there's an equation for it, but how do you balance knowing who's, who's going in the in the right direction who's like not everybody can be doing awesome but then it also can't be an hour-long bummer where nothing is working out for anyone so how do you balance that no it's weird writing is math i mean especially well like breaking i mean i'm not mathematical or logical in any way but in real life life, like ask my husband, I can't even like use a remote. But like there is a legit sort of mathematical equation to breaking a season. And there's a balance of highs and lows

and wins and losses. And you just kind of instinctively know how to balance things out. You're taking people on arcs. So everyone should be hitting a different part of their arc at different times in a way that balances out and there's just i don't know how to describe it but there's a there's a math to it when you're on you have a whiteboard and you're like writing

out the stories there is a way to kind of see that something is working or not working well this is like once you create the world i think is when you can start to say hey maybe we do a little with this or maybe this goes this way. And you're kind of talking all this stuff out where I always felt like when you looked at Mare of Easttown and I don't know if you get a chance to watch it on HBO. Right. You were and we had Brad on the show and it was so much about that one thing. Whereas what you've done is you've kind of strengthened everybody's storyline where I feel I'm more interested in. I love that we have more Osito because I felt like he was always awesome on the screen in season one, but there wasn't very much of him. And now, like, did you, you know, I'm veering off on kind of my point here because I want to get to the Osito thing. Did you just see how great he was in every scene and go, we have to build on him. We have to figure out a way to have him on TV more in season two. Yes, absolutely.

He was a fan favorite. I mean, we were already writing season two before season one had aired. So I didn't know for sure he was going to be a fan favorite. But like, I knew that I loved him and that the actor was amazing and that he was something really special. And then it worked out, you know, the audience goes bananas for him. I mean,

he's great. Yeah. It was, it was actually very, I don't know if you did it by design, but you almost made him so mysterious and so cold and dark. And now that we have this other side of him where we're learning more about him,

it it's clear that he wasn't exactly who we thought he was, but that mystery led to us all probably wanting to know more about him because he was just so good. Every time he was on the camera in season one, I was like, oh, all right, this guy's awesome. He doesn't even say anything. That's perfect. Yeah.

This is also a testament to why you hire other people to write your show too, besides just yourself. Because the writer who wrote episode 105 season one where he has a big speech about the first time he killed someone and it was like that writer pitched me he's like i want to give us you know this huge ass speech about the first time he killed you know and like it changed everyone was like it just changed everyone's view of that guy and it's like so i give credit where credit's due like that wasn't my. And I'm so glad it exists because it was the moment where everybody was, oh, this isn't just a big, you know, just a killer.

All right. You just touched on something. This is perfect. All right. How many writers are on, let's just say season one versus season two. I imagine the number's pretty much similar, right? Yeah. I think it's me plus seven or eight.

I'd have to like count on my fingers. Everybody's different. And certainly when you're driving around in the Cape and this is all, the seeds are being planted and you're mapping out in your head and you get home whiteboard right out the pilot. And now you're inviting in these other people. You've read their work. How much do you have to go, hey, I got to make sure everybody feels appreciated, but I still have a vision for where season one, where season two, where season three, where this story is going. How do you handle allowing somebody to be more creative in a spot with something that you created? You know, I mean, that's a big part of me becoming a showrunner is like learning how to be a boss.

And especially like in a creative field, like you can't be a dick and shut somebody down because you're going to lose, you you know you might shut down something that's annoying about them but you might then lose the thing that you like about them because you've made them feel scared and unsafe so there's definitely like a magic to letting people feel safe but also like keeping the conversation on point you know like i don't let us go down a road where i know i'm like if i'm not feeling it or like it doesn't jive with like my instinct i have to speak up early and like it's not going to be that guys but then they'll pitch something that like you know there's been things that have been pitched where at first i'm like oh that's scary or that

doesn't seem right and then i'm like actually that's brilliant and then so you know you have to let other people's voices in and also know when to like redirect so does that mean though at some point you have to let maybe something get in a line or a scene or a development that you don't love because you don't want to lose that person the rest of the season i don't know i don't think i mean you're like actually i still shut everything no no i mean no well okay how do i put it there's obviously storylines that i love more than others but that's not because of it's the person or i'm being nice it's like sometimes you don't come up with the best version of something and that's that's you know sometimes it's You just got to like make a decision and keep moving. But I don't think I would do it like to be nice. But there's a way to redirect that's kind and doesn't stifle people's creativity.

Hopefully, hopefully I've found that balance. Yeah, that's good. That was a good way. I just think that's interesting to people that, you know, it's interesting to me. And I don't think that people always understand that all the time. Because like when you look at the White Lotus, and Mike White just wrote every single episode. He just wrote every one. And I think some people think like, hey, this is amazing.

I don't have to give in. I've got my vision. But then other writers are like, that's horrifying. I wouldn't want to do that. It's literally horrifying. I don't understand. I love to have somebody hand me a script and I get to rewrite it. It's like I get to take everything that was good that they did and let it exist.

And then I get to fix the thing. I don't know. I just don't, I don't understand the need to not employ people. Which, which seeds are you kind of most proud of that you and the room had planted and the things that, I mean,

I have my own list of things that I've loved through, you know, the first few episodes. Again, I'm not all the way to where we get to some really heavy story changes because just by necessity, like some real things happen here. So if you're jumping on late, get caught up because some of the stuff that's happened in the middle of the season has been terrific. But what are you most proud of? Like, you know what, we did this, we weren't sure the payoff and now it's paid off even better than before well i don't want to spoil anything but episode five is really a huge explosive episode and somebody on twitter compared it to the red wedding of game of thrones and i was like

fuck yeah i made it i've arrived um so you know i it's interesting like there's um there's like episodes or storylines that have like really big really big, like, moves, big, like, plot explosions, and there's a lot of that in episode five. And then there's episodes that have, like, much sort of really much smaller kind of character scenes that I might be really proud of. I don't know. I mean, some of, I, I really love Leslie and Jackie together this season. The,

the two caught the lead and the sort of romance with the straight girl. I think it's like really, they have great chemistry and there's really interesting character moments of that developing. I can't think of us. I, I'm just drawing a blank. I can't think of a scene,

but, um, this is very minor. I'll help. I, I think Riley a scene, but, um, this is very minor. I'll help. I think Riley who plays Renee. Oh God. Very defranking. Yeah.

Um, she's cast perfectly. Yeah. And she, I don't know what the makeup routine is on her, but you guys do a really good job of like, here's this, this beautiful woman,

but you still, you want her to be a little bit of like rough around the edges. There's everything that she's been through. So you don't like overdo it make her you know a 10 every single scene um but i think the because some of you guys have clearly hung out at strip clubs because the the way that you have like wait remember strippers jobs are to get you to think that they like you and she's not that anymore professionally but she's absolutely that in her personal life and again i you know i haven't seen the fifth episode yet so i don't want to be or anybody but i don't even know if you guys did it intentionally or whatever but it actually backs it all up where

now i've seen some of the early stuff with Frankie, her husband, and Ray's obsessed with her still. And I'm like, you know what? That was actually really smart because that's what she has essentially professionally done so she'd be brilliant at it in her own personal life with her husband. So I'm sure there had to be some design behind it.

Well, I'll spoil it because it's in episode three and you've already seen it, but she's pregnant this season with Ray's baby. I don't know should maybe i shouldn't spill anything but um and she's and she has basically made the decision to kind of like i mean for the time being she's just kind of waiting it out and see where it's going to go and so she is living this lie with her husband and yes you absolutely see her playing him you know yes she absolutely I think everything she does is she's always thinking like how is this going to affect me how is this going to like how can I use this to my advantage and how can or like how can I keep this safe for me and my son like she always is playing the angles on things um and I just think she's just a brilliant actress.

And I love that you talked about her looks because we have a very distinct, like she'll have a stripper look. She has a work look. She has a mom look. And that woman is like a chameleon. Like she can really, like if you look at even the pilot,

when Ray comes over and brings the donuts over and she's just like in her like white lion and her sweats like her this rock t-shirt and like no makeup and like she just looks like oh you're like oh that's a cape cod woman i buy that and then you put on the club look and you're like oh my god she's a supermodel so yeah she must be from hyannis or something. Big city. The Jackie part of this, you know, where she's lesbian and now she's dating a straight woman who's, you know, clearly kind of you know challenge some of the traditional roles that are whether it's character whether it's relationships whether it's like in today's world of getting things picked up or the stuff that seems the momentum behind non i look i don't i'm sorry if i sound old or whatever i don't want to say non-traditional as a way that that makes it sound like i'm outdated here but I think it's very real that

we are seeing more and more starring roles representing so many different kinds of people. And it's almost like that seems to be, I don't know if preference is the right word, but how do you see kind of the market and the way things are kind of being bought and what seems to be getting priority now? Well, I mean, that's been Starz's jam for a long time. Like they are like, we are here to serve underserved audiences. Like, you know, they definitely focus their programming towards women, people of color, sort of marginalized groups. So that was like, I'm sure that's why they are the ones that ended up buying it.

But I, yeah, i do think it's like that has definitely opened up in the last few years and there's a lot more diversity on television diversity not just race but like every thing um but from like what i hear from a lot of lesbians and queer women is like what they love about the show is that this she is gay as the day is long jackie but like that's not what the show is about like that is a facet of her character that's not what the show is about and like i guess i guess that's still like unusual at this stage that we're in so you know that's a great that's about that like i don't that's not my story

to tell no that's actually a great way of putting it it's like here's this element here's the world and you know part of provincetown which you know anybody who's spent time there understand that summer it's it's a gay destination and it has been for i mean i don't know how long um you know i mean back to when i was in high school you know people talk about it but it you're right it, you're right. It's not necessarily like every scene. Oh, Hey, by the way, we're reminding you that because you don't, you almost forget at times throughout it. You compare Jackie to Don Draper after season one, uh, Mad Men, like everybody else, probably one of my favorite TV shows ever. I can't imagine it ever being replaced by anything else. Um, why, what connection there? Well, like, well, there? Well, how do you see that connection playing out? Because I hadn't thought about it until I heard you talk about it in an interview.

Like his rapacious appetite for women that like that you don't feel sorry for him. You know, it's not they don't play it sad. Like, oh, he's a sad sex addict. Like it's joyful and sexy and fun,

but they very much show the dark side of his personality too. And like, they totally lean into like, oh, he's like filling some hole in himself too. So I think that's very much how you could describe Jackie, but I wanted to make sure that there was like the fun, sexy side of that too. And not just to be, and I think especially when it's a woman having a lot of sex, like

I think when we've seen that on TV, it's always been kind of pathologized. Like, oh, something's wrong with her. She's broken. And like, yeah, there might be something wrong with her and she might be broken, but like, let's make it sexy and fun like it was with Don Draper. So that to me was the connection between those two. There's definitely more sex, right? I mean, did you guys get research departments coming back being like, all right, you know,

let's, let's get a couple, whether it's Ray for a neuter or, which is, you nail, you nail like just guys like, ah, you know, can I pull this off in the middle of the day? So congrats to anybody, whether it was your editor, your original or somebody else. That was Cape winner off season. Can I pull this off? I know I shouldn't do it. We both bartend together. I don't know. That was probably hit a little too close to home, but go ahead. I don't know if there's more sex this season. If you tell me there is, I'll believe you. I didn't, I never did like a quant,

like I never had like, never had to run the numbers on like- Somebody did. Maybe. But I love writing. I mean, it's funny because I'll see somebody say like, this show is like soft core porn. I want to be like, you're welcome. Like, hello.

But I know there's a lot, but I always try to make it be like story or, you know, it's like, it's revealing of character. It's never just to have a sex scene. It is always revealing somebody's motivations or somebody's character. you know,

we used to have really sexy movies like in the eighties and nineties, like basic instinct and i think the sort of marvelization of everything is made like there's not not a lot of sex in movies and television anymore so i'm single-handedly combating that all right well you're bringing it back um luis guzman season two here that's this is just to kind of guess but i've noticed it before season one does well it's established and then it's like all right hey you know what does somebody does a name and he's a scene stealer he has been every single thing he's ever been in so he's terrific um what is that like

going all right now we're adding this piece we get to write for him here a little bit but it almost feels like it's another confirmation of how well the show's going. Yeah. I mean, isn't like, I, I knew I wanted to bring that character in. I immediately pitched Louise, like in the writer's room, I was like, I think this is Louise Guzman. I wrote it in my mind for Louise Guzman. Cause I've worked on a show with him before. So I really had his voice in my head and I just went ahead and wrote it. And then as it happened, COVID hit, we went into lockdown. There was a long time before we were shooting season two. And I just wrote him a letter and said, hey, I remember you. I worked with you on Code Black. And I wrote this entire season with your voice in my head. What do you think about coming out and doing this? and you know it was his first show

back from covid and he was really excited to do it so but yes that is a common thing to bring in a big piece of casting in a second season i mean that is that's the oldest trick in the book right yeah but i almost feel like it feels good because it means this star has watched your your first season and gone all right i'm i'm in yeah on this um i mean does it feel how different is it to be on a season two versus one where you're like all right we're gonna make it through this whole thing and i don't know if it was picked up for season two before season you know i know every show is kind of different on that but i mean does it does it feel i mean clearly the show's getting more attention you're getting more attention this is kind of the goal of anyone that wants to write like hey i get

to run my own thing here it doesn't happen for everybody. And here you are. How does it feel, at least personally for you, to kind of whatever your goals were or the goalpost to hit something like this and have something that people are paying attention to? It's really nice to hear you say that because I feel the opposite. Great. I feel like it's really hard to get people to pay attention to a season two show because season one, they put so much into promoting it and you don't know if it's going to be a huge hit. So before it comes out, it's like, it's still a huge hit in my mind, maybe because you haven't proven me that it's not yet. So then the reality sits in. And then season two, it's just harder to get people to write about it. But the flip side of that is like, I love these characters more.

Everything is deepened and grown and the fans really see the difference and really, really appreciate the depth of it. So it goes both ways. I'm proud, obviously, to have two seasons, but it's also harder to get people to be like, oh, there's this new show. So here I am.

All right. Well, let's try to help. You can see any of the episodes of Hightown on Starz. I believe it's also on the Hulu feed. It's also on Amazon Prime. But in the moment, live, nine Eastern Sunday nights on Starz. But all of the episodes are on demand

and I would suggest you check it out so thanks again to Rebecca time thank you you want details bye I drive a Ferrari 355 cabriolet what's up I have a ridiculous house in the South Fork. I have every toy you could possibly imagine. And best of all, kids, I am liquid. So, now you know what's possible. Let me tell you what's required. Life advice is lifeadvicerr at gmail.

We got a couple follow-up ones here. Our guy is checking in. He's a little late to this. Hey, guys, big fan on the shorter side and decent enough shape, but I have a friend who can 8-rep my max bench. That's a little late to this. Hey guys, big fan on the shorter side and decent enough shape but I have a friend who can eight rep my max bench. That's a real confidence booster. I don't think we want this to start turning into what

your buddy's numbers are. I love the intel. It helps us really set the stage for your comment but we don't. I like what you're doing but we don't need it. That's good. All right.

I've been listening about a year now and heard references about Kyle embezzling from a Mexican cartel, but have not actually heard the story. Wondering if you could reiterate or send me a link. Thanks a lot. So, Kyle, this has turned into

a real Ozark situation for you that people now think perhaps you embezzled from a Mexican cartel. I, Kyle, this has turned into a real Ozark situation for you that people now think perhaps you embezzled from a Mexican cartel. I can promise you this. If Kyle did, I don't know that we would broadcast that part of the story. Yeah, my camera definitely wouldn't be on if that was the case. Right. Kyle did not embezzle from a Mexican cartel. It may have been a Hispanic fraternity, but we're still not sure.

Sometimes those fraternities are gangs in themselves, though. I mean, not the one in question, but I've seen a couple that it's like, man, you guys are just a gang, huh? Well, that is definitely not the case at UVM. No one would ever confuse us with a gang. Okay, another follow-up. The Mellow Boys. Oh, let's go. Per popular demand, Ryan, we're back. Just to clarify,

I did fix my ACL. Surgery was back in February of 2020. Yes, I'm definitely washed up compared to what I used to be. You'll get it back, man. If you decide you're washed up, then you are. Anyway, after listening to the pod and consulting with friends, we never left a bottle of tequila

or a note for Carmelo Anthony. We thought the only way this relationship could be a success is if we naturally ran into each other and built up a rapport, just like Sir Rudy said. So we were waiting for a moment, but unfortunately,

the opportunity never presented itself as we think Melo moved out in the past week or two. He must be a fan of the pod i'm gonna say that's that was in the email i'm not saying that i can promise you mellow does not download this podcast all right which makes sense because although we live next to him this is definitely not a mellow caliber type of neighborhood on the follow-up episode you mentioned that you consider hanging out with some 24 year olds when convenient well here's your chance we'd love to have you over your choice of grilling, beer games, jacuzzi, sun, or all the above. Or we could all hit a happy hour

together in Manhattan Beach. Let us know. I'm not a big happy hour guy because it interferes with the game watching. But there's a lot of adults, again, I'm technically one, that would tell you that happy hour is the way to go because you know you get a little early start but you get home earlier you're sleeping longer and I don't know that's what I hear

from the happy hour people I think we're going to have a lot of happy hour you like a happy hour Kyle? I bet you do. I do sometimes I'll get a headache though if I stop if I stop like after after a full happy hour which is like a full three hours I think I'll get a headache, though. If I stop, after a full happy hour, which is like a full three hours, you're like, I think I'm getting a headache.

Because you get hung over. Yeah, you get hung over while you're awake. Weird. And then I think the only thing naturally to do is to just keep this train rolling, right? The hair of the dog the next day actually never seemed to work for me. I was just like, I feel like shit,. Now I'm putting alcohol on top of it.

But during the day, I think I've at least convinced myself that's the move to keep from the midday hangovers. Just keep going. Hair of the dog is one of the worst calls ever. I mean, it just totally right. There was a bunch of guys from Australia that used to convince us that he figured out the cures to hangover. It are cured hangovers. And they'd be like, again, this is back like the late teens, early 20s. And they'd be like again this is back in like the late teens early 20s and they'd be like oh dude here's what you do mate just do a quick snip of uh jagermeister and i'd be like wait what like i'm i'm hung over and you want me to fucking drink

jagermeister at nine in the morning like no thank you and i of course we tried it and i was just like wait so then the guy did like he's's like, you probably need two there, brother. And you're like, all right. So let's just get drunk again is your solution. You're still drunk. There's a continuous effort here. Did you go to sleep last night? Hey, this guy has an amazing cure for hangovers.

He just drinks Jägermeister the entire next morning. It's unbelievable. I don't know what to think of this. Yeah. Does Jägermeister know this? This could completely change their business profile. Enough of that.

Just the thought. Honestly, my whole torso just shriveled up thinking about the taste of that. I don't think I've been drinking Jaeger since high school. We didn't do that in college. It was like Jaeger. We used to combine that with Vault.

Remember that soda that was kind of like Surge, but it was called Vault? We used to do Vault bombs with Jaeger, and it was probably the dumbest thing you could ever do, and I was just off Jaeger right after that, probably at age 18. Didn't they run into some legal trouble, Vault? I'm pretty sure they were.

Did you drink Vault, Kyle? Vault was underrated. No. No, I didn't. I didn't. I just remember thinking that there was something going on with them. I think maybe they had some ingredient problems. I think they just ripped off Surge, and that was kind of the problem, too. They just brought back Surge. That's a bummer. You're missing out.

I was strictly Red Bull as a Kyle. As one of the Kyles running around out there. I never want to be caught with a monster can in my hand, so I'm pretty much Red Bull. The big jug Red Bull. That's about it. Big jug Red Bull? How many grams of caffeine are we talking there?

We don't look. We just look at the price because it's like $5.99 for the big one and it's $4.59 for the one that's half as as big so you might as well just go big or go home I love that I love when guys say go big or go home that's what I know that's what I know they mean business

um alright I'm gonna do a blind one here blind totally blind please leave my name out of this he says okay early 20s new zealand oh he's gonna love that jaeger message thing we just did although completely different country look at a globe gonna say aren't they rivals i probably love it new zealand with them once every six months ryan you just say something to get them going who new zealand yeah yeah but they still like me

they were just they were super pissed about the Steven Adams thing. It led the local news down there when Bill and I were like, yeah, I don't know. I think he's... My biggest thing is I think Steven Adams plays smaller than he is. He seems like an awesome guy.

I've never heard really a bad story about him. I love what he brings to the team, but I actually just always think he should be better. And I thought when they played the Rockets in that playoff series where Houston beat OKC in seven, I was consistently underwhelmed by Adams. But that's because I care, man.

That's why I brought it up. All right, last one here. I have no idea if today's episode was any good or not. All right. Recently out of a relationship that lasted five years and the subsequent year being on and off. All right, so we're five years plus a year of hanging out. I found out she'd been talking to someone quite seriously during this time.

Therefore, I cut all ties and thought I would try my hand at Tinder. It has been a while being in the dating chatting game. I think I jumped in too quickly. There are now a few girls that I'm talking to every day, constantly wanting to chat and meet up. This is nice for time as the attention was a good distraction or being upset about the breakup. However, I've realized I'm not attracted to these people or nor do I want to talk to them anymore. These girls are acting like they have genuine feelings after only talking for two weeks and I feel like I jumped in the deep end too

quickly. How do I cut all ties with them? Do I just stop relying or do I just stop replying and delete them on all socials do i tell them i'm not interested after talking to them 24 7 for two weeks i feel like i've led them on a bit unwillingly any suggestions would be appreciated poor fucking you you went on some dating apps and people liked you and now you're afraid you've ruined their lives because you don't want to keep texting with them after a couple of weeks. There's two ways of looking at this. But in his defense, though, he hold on, hold on. He went through a breakup after five years.

He's probably in a rough spot. And then he jumps back in the dating scene. That is a harsh sort of reality to be thrown back into. I'm not saying I should feel sympathetic for him because all these girls want to talk to him. But all right. You know, he went through a rough situation. Agree. sympathetic for him because all these girls want to talk to him but all right he you know he went through a rough situation agree and it's actually you could say it's commendable that he has a decent enough of a heart to care but like there's also a part of this too you're like who do you think you are like is your ego so big that you think that if you just tell somebody you don't

really want to talk to them after just texting on a fucking dating app for a couple weeks that you're going to ruin their lives. You know, that's, that feels a little narcissistic. It just does. Um, if you were not from New Zealand, I would definitely think that,

but I don't know. Maybe I just, does New Zealand have narcissists? I don't know. It seems like a generalization to say there'd be zero there, but I've, I've met some guys from the area and I'm like, I don't know.

That narcissism isn't the first thing that jumps out at me. I just think about the people that have almost zero chance with women that email into the show and then this guy is like, oh, what do I do? How do I ghost them respectively? You could just say,

hey, I'm not interested and they're not going to have to check into a therapist the next day. All right? You could do that. You could blow off a couple texts. Um, and that's fine. Like you're, you're in a weird spot, but you know what you shouldn't do?

Maybe the lesson, all of this is if you're not interested in them because it's really about the X, then that's a mistake, right? If you're deciding that, well, this isn't the person that I'm, that I want to be with. This is out of my comfort zone. They're all not her and all that kind of stuff. That's where you can be making a mistake and messing yourself up. But if you've just got it like that, where girls just like you left and right, and you're like, oh man, I think, you know, I don't want to let them down. Just get over yourself a little bit and realize that they're probably going to keep on living and making it

to their job on time. And then they'll meet somebody else at some other point. Cause you can get real self-centered one way street-ish, uh, when you're younger about this kind of stuff. Um, but as you get older, you start to realize like, you know what, maybe I'm, um, you know, like maybe I don't need to give this person permission to stop caring about me as if I'm so great. Kyle. Yeah. It's one word. It's don't. Don't answer. Don't block. Don't unfollow. Don't reply. Don't emoji. Don't. Just don't. Just don't. See what happens. Everything's fine. And if you are that guy, what I think you should do is try to ruin your ex's new relationship because she still wants to talk to you anyway. Wait a minute. What's going on there? That sounds

a little revenge-ish. No, not revenge because if I'm reading this right, right listen i just wanted to have something to say here all i had was don't i really wanted to add another thing was the only other thing was i like don't though by the way kyle it was direct it was concise everyone's gonna people are anything that you're thinking about doing don't do it yeah people are gonna remember that more than anything else we said during life advice so well well done um so what in in his setup he was like, I just I found out that my girlfriend was seeing somebody kind of heavily in our talking stage. And I decided to cut everything off like in a hurtful way, even though it was like that year of talking. Right. Yeah. Obviously, that bums him out.

But I mean, those are the rules. That's another thing that I think is very self-centered. I'm telling you because I was the guy where I could be doing stuff when I wasn't dating somebody and then I would hear that they did something and I'd be like, what the fuck is wrong with that person? And there was no accountability. I was completely selfish about it and thinking, well, wait, I can do what I'm doing, but why would she do that? And it's bullshit. It's total bullshit. And the reason I'm telling you is because I know who that guy is because it was me for a long time. But now you can be the other guy is what I'm saying.

Now that the new thing's going well, now you can be the other guy that's got nothing to lose but also has pretty good chemistry and history. Yeah, I just think with this case, it's like, all right, if you're still bummed about her the other thing you you do wrong is is make every move about this person that you're not with and yes you know if it's your person and you think this is part of the strategy and you're going to figure it out you're going to end up back together and you're still talking and you're okay with getting over you will eventually get over some of the stuff that she may have done or may

have not done or she talked to this other person. Okay, fine, fine. But waiting around for this reconciliation while you're also apparently charming enough where all of these people are interested in you, but you don't want to spend any time with them. Like I understand going through a phase, but that's not a long-term fix to any of this stuff. Is that totally, that's the beauty of it is you can do, you can be the other version of the guy that you are on your own time, which is nice. Especially if he's finding every one of these women to be just he can't.

He just doesn't want to even reply to them as far as conversations are concerned. So I don't know. I'm just saying if you're thinking about what to do and you got no plans, just maybe because then you could you can at that point you can hit her up every once in a while or if she even was hitting you up. It's just like this way, your eyes are open now and you can just do it on your own time. That's what I mean. Sometimes it's fun to dip your toe in that pool and then be able to just run away and everything's fine because it was never that serious.

Sure. Do you regret being married ever? No, but I think to your advice uh wow that's an incredible question um when i so i dated this girl for a long time before i was married like going way back and you to your point about like not getting hung up on that person or trying to look for that person other people that you date when you're post breakup it's 100 true because you get in your own head and then nobody's good enough and then you don't date anybody for a long time, which is what happened to me.

And so that's what I would, that's the advice I would give to this person is don't do that. But here's the one thing I want to say about his like trepidation of like breaking people's hearts

on Tinder. There's a good chance that they're also talking to a bunch of other dudes too. Like the fact that you have, you're talking to two to three, four girls, they're probably talking

to three, three, four guys. So like if you, if you drop out, they're probably not going to cry over four girls, they're probably talking to three, three, four guys. So if you drop out, they're probably not going to cry over it. Yes, that's a very, very good point. You can get really caught up in your own ego where you're like, oh, well, I have to let this one girl down.

And you're like, no, actually, she's talking to seven guys. You're just one of the seven guys. If you're on eHarmony or Match or Christian Mingle and it was a little more serious, I'd be like, all right, maybe don't ghost them. But it's freaking Tinder, dude. So you're saying don't ghost on. Yeah, like a more serious dating website.

Like Tinder's not a serious dating website. eHarmony, be nicer. Tinder, just stop replying. Wild West. Tinder, Bumble, do whatever you want. We should have a dating person on to answer these because I'm getting sick of answering the dating ones.

I just am. I've hit a creative peak. I shouldn't even call it a peak. Or a plateau. Yeah. We've plateaued, Kyle. Well said. And you already asked. You recycled the question to Cerruti if you were getting married.

Who was that, Kohlhauser? You recycled that question. You've got nothing left. You're recycling questions out. Well, Cerruti reminds me of Rip a lot. Good jawlines. To answer the question, no, I don't. Previously on Yellowstone.

All right, we'll talk to you guys on Friday. We've got Vilma and a replacing quarterback. We're not going to make it a draft, but I did some research on this. It's going to be pretty interesting. So we'll be back. Please subscribe.

Thanks to Kyle and Steve for running us through the podcast. Ring the spot. Thank you. you