The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Best and Worst Signings of NBA Free Agency, Plus Jermaine O’Neal on Untold Stories From the “Malice at the Palace”

Episode Date: August 5, 2021

Ryen opens with the best and worst signings from the early part of NBA free agency, including moves by the Bulls, Knicks, Heat and others (00:40). Then he chats with former Indiana Pacer Jermaine O’Neal about the new Netflix documentary 'Untold,' revisiting the “Malice at the Palace,” what people still don’t understand about that night, and how it changed the league and players involved forever (16:51). Finally, he closes it out reacting to some listener-submitted Life Advice questions (47:34). Host: Ryen Russillo Guests: Jermaine O’Neal Producers: Steve Ceruti and Stefan Anderson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

today's podcast is awesome all right i'm gonna do a big free agency recap thing with i think the most important things to go over including assigning that i still can't figure out you got life advice but we have jermaine o'neal, former NBA All-Star and also producer of a new series on Netflix about the Malice in the Palace. So he's the producer of that movie, which is part of a series of movies. And we're going to get into it with him. And he was terrific. So looking forward to it. I want to start today's podcast going over some of the free agency stuff. I could go forever on it. I'm probably going to still go a little too long on this,

but I'm going to run through it anyway. Just some of the teams, the observations that I want to make sure that I go over here. And like I said, there's a million different options. But I think the first one that jumps out at me, your Chicago Bulls. So the Bulls did some things. And this is really a carryover where they were at last year, moving a couple first for Vooch.

I liked it. I'll say this too. I want to tell you that I respect the teams that are like, hey, how about this idea? How about this concept? Let's just be better. Do we want to add better players and try to be a better team? Yeah. Okay, cool. Let's do that. Everybody that does this championship driven bullshit, it just doesn't exist. There aren't that many options out there for most of these teams. We went over the cap space stuff a little bit earlier. We mentioned how the top 10 draft picks have a recent history here of flaming out. I had a front office guy who texted me after he heard that. He said, I did a study on it and I hope he's okay. I'm not going to say who did it, but he was like 28% of first round picks over a 15 year study didn't even make it to a second contract.

That's out of the league, a third of the picks. And that's why I think more of the GMs and, you know, look, Daryl Morey and I even talked about this one time. He's like, you're actually, I think he thinks most of the stuff I say is wrong, but he was like, you're right about the first round draft pick thing. He's like, they're a little overrated. And so anyway, now as we continue to sift through all of these challenges that you have in an NBA offseason, because there's so many teams being like,

well, what about us? What happened with us? I don't know what offers are real or not. Some I feel better about with the information. Some of the stuff I just go, hey, I know I'm not going to know a good chunk of some of the things that never actually happened because nobody wants to go, hey, here's how close on all the misses that we had. Although some teams do like talking to you about that. All right. So the Bulls, they did get better. They have Zoe, which I like. I mean, Lonzo is a... I think he's an acquired taste, and also you have to recalibrate what your expectations were for him

coming out as a second overall pick. I do like Vooch. I don't love him defensively, but I think he's always been a little underrated. That's what I meant to say. Then you add with Zach Levine, and then Patrick Williams, which is asking a lot for a second-year kid to be like, alright, you're our power forward. But this team should be good enough to make the playoffs.

And I'm talking about a top eight seed. They were two games out of the 10th spot last year. How did that happen? Well, Zach Levine missed about three weeks and the whole Levine thing got kind of weird. We're going to get to that again later. But then that leads me to like, hey, you're leaving somebody out. Not Alex Caruso, which I really like that signing. If you look at any of his defensive numbers and the impact he makes in the game, it's

the DeMar DeRozan deal. I kept waiting to find more information on this. A lot like the Evan Fournier deal, we find out the fourth year's a team option. The Chris Paul deal, we find out there aren't even full guarantees in that third year. Again, I understand that some of this information, we may not even have all the details until a month from now on what some of the real, real numbers not even have all the details until a month from now on what some of the real, real numbers are. It's still not as bad as the NFL,

which are almost always fake numbers. You just look at the bonus. But with DeRozan, I kept waiting. I kept wondering, is this really a full three years and 85 million guaranteed for 32-year-old DeMar DeRozan? And it appears to be. So yes, are you better? You're better.

That's not bad. That's a playoff starting five. It has to be. So yes, are you better? You're better. That's not bad. That's a playoff starting five. It has to be a playoff starting five. If you're not making the playoffs with that team, something's wrong. But this is where the, hey, let's get better, but then let's also do something. I think it's borderline alarming

that you would give this deal to DeRozan, so let's examine it. You moved out of first and two seconds to do the deal on this one and also Thaddeus Young and another expiring contract. It'd be one thing in a vacuum just to sign to Rosen for 385, which I still think would be wrong, to then go, let's give up assets. And I always wonder, as most of us will never know, how those conversations go. Did the Spurs ask for two firsts and two seconds? Why the two seconds?

I don't love second rounders, whatever, but San Antonio was going to say no to this? And who were you bidding against? I think that's the part that should scare you. The Knicks had spent all their cap space. They tried for Chris Paul. They weren't going to get him. We're going to get to the Knicks.

Oklahoma City probably wasn't going to give a multi-year deal to DeMar DeRozan. The Heat were probably in play, but if you look at what their room was below the tax threshold, we're talking about a contract that starts at less than $15 million a year. And the Bulls decided to get close to $30 million for DeRozan, who is very skilled. I liked him coming out of the draft. Like, hey, this guy's got a little of that mid-range. Maybe the mid-range is back after Phoenix's run.

But he doesn't hit any threes. And there are a lot of alarming numbers about DeRozan that tell you for all the raw stuff, hey, scores, the assists are pretty good. He's a good player. He's a good player. But does he actually make your teams better? Because there have been plus minus stuff with DeMar DeRozan over the years. You're like, how come every time it's like a DeRozan season, you go,

plus minus impact isn't really what you would expect for this. So I can understand the Bulls saying, hey, let's get a five. Let's be better. Okay, check, check. But then to bid against who to get to this kind of deal where DeRozan's 35 making 30 million a year, that's, like I said, alarming. I'd have to be talked into what this means and then why you felt you had to go this high for him. And again, you could say, well, look, the Spurs could have used their own rights to keep them and go high. I don't know. Do you think the Spurs would have given that kind of contract? Maybe somebody will tell me that they would have. I also think there's a certain number

you go, okay, fine. Yes, we would be better in the short term, but now we're actually giving up assets for what is the biggest question. I would say of all the deals done so far this first week of NBA free agency, that was the one where I was like, I can't believe the number on that. And I also wondered if there was a weird Zach Levine part of it. Are they worried about Levine's future? He's got one year deal left, one year on his contract, 19.5. That means he's eligible for like a lesser extension working off of that number.

There was another way Chicago could have given him more, but they would have had to use cap space of their own, which is something a team doesn't really want to do. And I don't want to get too bogged down in this,

but I just think 85 million for DeRozan and giving up pieces didn't make a lot of sense. OK, let's get to Kemba Walker. He's 31 years old. If you go by Kemba's traditional stats, you're going to say, hey, 19 points last year, five assists, four boards, 42 and 36% from the floor, 36 from three. Okay, this guy, there's some really good... I saw that

happening this week. If you look at the traditional numbers, I think that's a pretty big mistake. He played 43 and 56 games in each of the last two seasons, and that was with rest. He got shut down in the playoffs, and there's a real physical problem here with Kemba that goes all the way back to Charlotte. And I think the rest of the league knew that, and that's why the Celtics ended up having to throw a first-rounder just to get him

out the door so that Oklahoma City could absorb the contract and take Horford back. I also think the Celtics wanted Horford. We'll get to them for a little bit here in a second. But as far as who Kemba is, I'm just not sure because there's a version of Kemba where I go, okay, does he attack his rehab in a different way than he did when he was with Boston? Can he figure out a way to turn this thing around at 31 years old? Can he actually be dependent on to be there at the finish line?

Is he somebody who you can have in the playoffs? Because even with some of the numbers, traditional raw numbers that look good, as somebody who watched a lot of it, I think anybody that watched Kemba the last two years, you'd have this moment of hope

and then he wouldn't play for a game. And then, you know, he just couldn't hit a shot to save his life. And he was just getting worked by everybody on the other end of the floor. I have no problem.

Again, I repeat, I like this deal for the Knicks. Maybe there's some turnaround here that makes sense, but the fact that he was a buyout after the trade tells you the market for Kemba just didn't exist. And that's why the Celtics had to attach some kind of asset to it, most likely. Now, for the Knicks, they wanted Chris Paul. He didn't want to go back and lose. He stays with Phoenix. I'm sure they would have loved Lowry, the bigger ticket item.

He ends up in Miami. Even Conley staying with the Jazz, that's not a shock there. They give Fournier four years and $78 million, but it's a team option on the fourth year on the $20 million, so it's really like three years, a little less than $60.

I don't think Fournier solves all your problems, but the rule about cap space, we always get it, right? You got to kind of use it. They couldn't use it in some of these bigger guys. They also re-signed Rose. They re-signed Nerlens and Alec Burks. So the Knicks may have been a great story last year, but as we saw in that Atlanta series,

there's just not enough scoring, and they had nothing defensively to handle Trey Young at all. They just didn't. It was a bad, bad matchup for them and Randall re-signs as well. So I think the team has a chance to be a little bit better,

but considering some of the East teams around them, the Knicks could end up having a worse record and I'm not going to sit here and tell you in the beginning of August what I think the Knicks are going to do in the playoffs

because I just don't know. But the Kemba part of it, I love it for the Knicks, but I would temper my expectations unless he finds a way to approach his rehab in a different way because I think that's also part of the story for Kemba in that whatever he was trying to do wasn't working because physically he was a mess again at the end of the Celtics run. Speaking of the Celtics, it was boring as hell, but I think it was necessity. They bring in Josh Richardson, expiring Chris Dunn, short money, canter one year. I was a little surprised by the canter thing because I always felt like Ainge is more of a canter guy than Brad Stevens was. You could probably tell that based on the minutes when Stevens was the coach,

but if you look at it under three million for one year for Kanter, hey, can he actually play the position during the regular season and cover us? Does he stay healthy? Yeah. All right, fine. Let's go ahead and do that. They get Tristan's deal out of there. Fournier, I can see.

I don't have a problem with the Knicks necessarily, but I also can see a team being like, you know what? I don't think I want to go to $60 million for him. And then moving Kemba out. None of it is exciting. Celtics fans everywhere are bored to death. But I actually think it's kind of a good sign with Stevens because I think these were like seasoned front office guy moves

for a guy who's doing it for the first time. And it suggests that Stevens walks into a front office office room and is like, all right, how's this work? That wasn't what it was going to be like for him. He's still got a staff that was there with Ainge. But all of these moves were basically pretty boring. But I think they it was going to be like for him. He still got a staff that was there with Ainge, but all of these moves were basically pretty boring, but I think they kind of had to be boring, as I think their longer-term

plan would be to reinvent the team around Tatum and Brown and see what their options are instead of doing something else. I don't think Lowry was going to go. I don't think the sign-in trades, the Dinwiddie stuff, all that kind of stuff, I don't really know that Boston was in play for as much of that stuff. Maybe Lonzo, but I could see Lonzo wanting to go to Chicago instead of Boston.

I mean, Boston's just not a destination for a lot of these younger guys. You've got to admit it if you're from the area. By the way, the Lonzo to Chicago thing now ends the longest active rumor that hadn't happened in recent NBA history. Lonzo to Chicago, I think it's over two years now. I had heard something like that. And he finally ends up there with a completely different administration, by the way. So, you know, the Heat, they're better.

Lowry, it's a lot of money. He ended up getting more than I thought he was even asking for at the trade deadline when I was saying it was two for 50 and it ends up even beyond that. They do the Butler extension, which, you you know just kind of the way it works yeah that's a lot of money we can make fun of it I mean Lowry's going to be 31 and a half million at 37 years old Butler is going to be double check this Butler's going to be 51.6 million at 36 years old. And we can laugh and say, oh, that's big. But yeah, it's kind of the way the business is done. And speaking of that, I have two more things that I want to finish up here quickly. As business has done stuff,

is this Dinwiddie trade just started multiplying all week, adding more and more teams and trying to figure it all out. And you're like, well, Brooklyn doesn't want to take any money back because of the tax. And that's why Dinwiddie's out in the first place. We can pretend that now Beal's really happy because Spencer Dinwiddie's there. I don't know.

I don't know if that makes a ton of sense. Yes, the Wizards have more depth. Maybe they like their team better. They have more flexibility moving in the future because they're off the Westbrook number. All of these things make sense. But I'm not buying like a,

hey, you know, I've read Beal was very interested in dinwiddie they they asked about okay fine i believe all of that stuff but i still think people just end up doing what they want to do and ultimately beal isn't super happy at some point although he's been fine with this he's not hitting the panic button so wizards fans i don't think that nuclear option is happening with beal anytime soon maybe later towards the deadline but i don't think there'll be a moment where beal would like, oh, I'm not feeling this, but man, we got Dinwiddie, so I'm sticking around.

I just don't believe in that stuff. But what I do believe in, which is something that not only people, fans miss, I think us in the media miss all the time, is how many times GMs will do deals to help the agent, to help the player. Hey, do you guys want to get in on this? All right, well, it doesn't really make any sense for us. We don't have an immediate win on this. Maybe there's a long-term little piece or whatever. It's so difficult for these transactions. I think a big part of the NBA world and understanding

these jobs is that there will be deals that will be done where teams are doing the agent a favor, which doesn't sacrifice a ton here. It's not like, hey, I don't want to give you a first, but I will so your client can get a contract with some other team that we're competing with here. I'm just saying like, I think a lot of this stuff where we'll try to understand why that happened. I think this, this world is so tight knit and there's going to be a time when somebody else needs a favor down the road and teams can burn an agent, an agent can burn a team. I'm not saying that obviously it doesn't happen, but I think that that's something that you always need to pay attention to when you're like, well, why would anyone go out of their way to do this when there isn't any cap space to all these

different things? It's like, look, let's try to find a way to get this deal done and I'm going to owe you one down the road. The last thing, do you remember when the Nets added LaMarcus Aldridge and Blake Griffin? Of course you do, right? So the headline became the Nets now have a combined 41 all-star appearances. And I saw a media member say this that are big LeBron fans. They said, hey, look what the Nets had to do, what they had to put together to try to take down LeBron.

That's a real thing. It exists. It's out there. Go ahead. Look it up. First of all, it's irrelevant because LaMarcus and Blake at that point were no longer all-stars, but you're just trying to throw something together. It's kind of like if Tom Brady tweeted out that he saw Space Jam SportsCenter's feed would be like, hey, everybody

chill out for a second. Brady just tweeted about Space Jam. Do we change? Should we have a special show for this? All right. It looks good in a tweet. Hey, 41 all-star appearances. That's amazing. But it looked even funnier, and it was honestly stupid, to say that this was some attempt now to take down. It spoke to, I'm going to argue, LeBron's greatness because the Nets added two irrelevant all-stars. of that conclusion.

When most teams are just trying to get better other than the ones that want to be worse, right? Like, I don't know. I don't know that teams go, hey, do you want to get better? Yeah, let's get better. And then some other team gets better and you're like, hey, do you want to get really better?

Like, I didn't Wednesday, but on Thursday I do. Yeah. So as I say that, the Lakers now have 55 all-star game appearances total lebron 17 ad8 mellow 10 russell westbrook 9 dwight howard 8 marcus soul 3 so we could just chop off 23 of those in relevance um and you know what it doesn't mean anything so if you're arguing actually against lebron or against the Lakers would be like, he needed

55 all-star appearances combined for MVPs for defensive player of the year, 17, all defense for scoring champs, eight gold medals combined to try to win more. It's also totally reasonable for me to say, Hey, at this stage, Mello, Dwight and Marcus all are not exactly all-star caliber players. From Netflix, a new series that looks incredible. I can't wait for this. It's Untold. It's five different stories, but the first one coming out

August 10th is Malice at the Palace. As NBA fans know, the fight between the Troy Pistons and the Impacers and Jermaine O'Neal, who's not only a Pacers star, he's the producer of this. And I've got to imagine, Jermaine, it feels great as we're just about a week away from this thing of getting it done and showing a story from angles that I'm sure most of us have never seen, despite the fact that NBA guys like myself have probably seen and talked about this for hours on end.

Yeah, it's been a long time coming. I've sat down with a lot of producers and directors. I wanted to be able to tell a story, not to the avid NBA fan, but to the average human that saw what happened, but doesn't follow the NBA, right? There's been a lot of information excuse the people to try to you know take stabs at this and and nobody's ever been put it all together for me personally I never really want to talk about it because it was such a bitter spot for me and people

just really didn't have all the information and it was important for me to you know tell a story. And I got to say a big thank you to Netflix, the Way Brothers, Floyd Russ, who was director, who did a phenomenal job in capturing that vision. And for those three believing in the vision, because to be quite honest, I'm actually tired of hearing about it, the anniversaries every year.

I was in Vegas two weekends ago and about 10, 12 people came up to me asking me about it. And that's pretty typical. Um, so we wanted to put all of, you know, as many people that were involved in that night, um, you know, into the dock and have people speak candidly, uh, about, you know, what happened that particular night. Yeah. I can't imagine.

I cannot imagine how often people come up to you and want to talk about it. So maybe now when this is out there. So, hey, let's bother you some more and talk about that night. So November 2004, I remember watching the game. I think I was covering a Celtics game in Boston. And then I went out a little bit afterwards and I was, I was watching everything that happened and I was like, Oh my God,

but it had been brewing. I mean, you took the two teams didn't like each other. The 45 seconds left. Ben Wallace drives off, off of a weird play. I mean, the game's over.

And then our test at the time, you weren't in the game, right? You were, you had been taken out at that point, correct? Yeah. You know,

I still, to this point, I'm, I'm and Rick Carlisle are great friends. I have not been able to ask him that question as well. Was I the first one taken out of the game? You know, I probably should have been the last taken out of the game, you know, in a situation like that. But that did happen. I have to say this. Back then, here's what people don't realize. We hated each other on the court, but we were all friends off

the court. We were in the era back then where it was either me or you when those lights turned on. And then when we were away, me and Rip came out. We were in the same high school class. I've known Rip for a long time. She, now I play with him in Portland. Tight friends since

then. Chauncey, all you know, tight friends since then. You know, Chauncey, all those guys, we're all friends. But nobody never knew that, right? And so when we were on the court, it's like this battle and, you know, things just, you know, went from, you know, one thing to another and it ended up into, you know, as we know, the malice

and the balance. And, you know, then Ron Artest, he, you know, he pushes Ben, he goes to the scorer's table, and at one point even puts on a headset. You know what I mean? It's kind of like he's going, and then Steven Jackson's like screaming at everybody. What were you seeing at that point? Because as I've gone back and watched it again in preparation for the interview, when Sheed is kind of peacemaker, but yelling, Lindsey Hunter's yelling a little bit, Derek Coleman comes over and Steven Jackson's like, he's just waiting for anybody who wants to go.

And this is all before the cup is thrown. What are you thinking? What are you seeing at this point? Cause you've looked like you were like, I don't, you know, like you guys are going to just hash it out and I'm going to be over here. Uh, what was going on with you at that point? over here. What was going on with you at that point? It's the typical NBA stuff. Guys in the chirp. Obviously, it was

no love between the two teams. They beat us the year before in the conference finals. We felt like we were the better team and we had just disposed of them on national television. Emotions was hot right never did i think that it was gonna end up to where it ended up at uh but it was typical back and forth right

um yeah i thought that the situation like you know the rest allowed the confrontation to go too long right because when it really ignited was when Ben started throwing the headbands and arm bands right and so that the crowd started reacting and what you didn't really see in the doc is that it was other things being thrown on the court it just so happened that you know the cup of beer which I feel like that guy chose the wrong occupations he should have been a pitcher. The accuracy that he had on that pitch from where he was was tremendous. But I'm sitting there thinking that it's going to clear up.

We're going to go back to the locker room and get ready for our next game. And obviously, it didn't end that way. I would have actually preferred for the teams to actually, if it was going to be a fight or anything, that the teams fight, and that's like a three to five game suspension, right? Right. Not losing a player for an entire year or one for, you know, 30 plus games. And then obviously my suspension, you know,

we could talk a little bit about later, that was basically stopped and I was reinstated. But, you know, it was just one of those things where you're just like, wow, we went from being up, beating the world champions with all the positivity going in our direction to all hell breaking loose. Yeah, the cup. I've seen the interview of the guy that's thrown it a million times. I was watching it again.

He seems oddly positive about the whole transaction, which is still, it bothers the shit out of me. And you're right. He was like, I told my buddy, I bet I could hit him from here. He's like, I didn't expect to hit him. He hits, we'll just call him Artest because he's changed his name back to Artest here

for the standard of the podcast. But he runs up and he goes at the kid who has maybe the most horrified look on a human being's face I've ever seen and runs past the guy that threw the cup. And then the guy that throws the cup starts throwing sucker punches at our test head, which again, he's not even going to feel him at that point. Um, what, what's going through your mind now that it's now crossed over into, okay, this is way more than just a normal NBA altercation. Well, you know, when you see something like that happen, it's like,

it's like a wow moment. And I remember, you know, looking at, you know, because each arena has 26 to 28 camera angles and we're able to see all of the camera angles when we're going through all the criminal stuff. And obviously we were able to use that too in this doc, but I'm just sitting watching. I'm like, man, it's crazy. Right. Like it's almost like a quick, you know, like a quick like flash in front of your eyes. And then the next thing you're looking at is the amount of people that are rushing towards us. Because at that point, it wasn't,

it wasn't just rushing toward Ron and Jack. They started rushing on the court right and then that was one of the situations that didn't really do me for a loop because it goes from being a professional basketball player playing the professional game to absolutely defending your way of life right and so i always tell people like when like people always see me with the slide and punch right um one thing it was immense amounts of beer on the floor, right? From people throwing cups and drinks and everything. What people did not know, and this had a part to do with my reinstatement,

because people don't know that I actually went to court against the NBA and got reinstated, and the federal judge said I had the right to do what I did. But that was never even spoke about. I just, before I slid over there and hit the guy, a person came up to me. I'm six foot 11. This guy had to be five,

eight, five, nine jumps up and grabs me around my neck. Now from behind. Now in a situation like that, it's like kill, kill, kill at that point,

because now it's like, you see people throwing stuff, grabbing chairs. I mean, literally trying to rock chairs loose in stands. And so I actually slammed the guy on the score table, which by the way, try to sue me later,

uh, the loss. And then I looked to my left and I seen Anthony Johnson, which if you look at the slide and punch, he's the guy in the brown suit. He's on the floor with the book. He has a cast on his hand and he's in that guy that I hit is actually standing over. Right. And so being a leader comes in many different forms. Right. And it's protect yourself

and others and so at that point i'm getting i'm going from getting somebody off my neck fans that we were on the court to going over here to protect my teammate and that's why i end up getting a bad guy i remember the first thing i'm not just bullshitting you here because you're on the podcast you know i don't think we've i've interviewed you before but in the moment when i was watching everything happens like a lot of people, I'm like, I can't believe this guy did this. I can't believe this guy did this. And then when I see Anthony Johnson, because at that point, our test is in front of your bench, it's still the craziest thing ever. I mean, again, I was watching it this morning. All the Pistons fans are like, all right, let's go down there and try

to sort this out. And you're like, what were you guys thinking? And our test goes at the two guys in Pistons jersey. Then he's down. Then you're right. Anthony Johnson is down. And then there's another pretty, like he's heavy standing over him. And that's kind of when you come in,

there's another point where a guy chases, like on the baseline to come to our test. And he's a little guy. And I'm thinking like, as crazy as stuff is, what were these guys thinking? Like, all right, let me go down there and try to like,

let me get one of these guys. So as you load up on, on, on the dude that's standing over Anthony and you slip, did you go, all right, like that to me was so justified. And I know it ended up being that later on. And we'll get to the, some of the court stuff. Cause I thought that was really important. Your thought, like, can you remember what was going on in your head where you're like, all right, I'm absolutely unloading on this guy because he's standing over one of the

Pacers. I knew I went from, I mean, and it was like, it was like this, it was captured and I got to send it to you. Um, I was just,

when it, when the guys went in the stand, so I had a security guard that traveled with us all the time. And so he was, I never got into the stands to even go separated because he was holding, right? And so he's like, he's talking to me. He's like, Jermaine, just relax, relax, relax.

And then I, you know, I finally, it was like, I was shocked, right? Because you got to imagine the Pistons at the time, the Palace at the time was, I think, the largest. Maybe Chicago was, you know, and the Rose Garden in Portland were the three was, I think, the largest. Maybe Chicago was in the Rose Garden in Portland were the three largest 20,000 seat arenas.

And it was a bunch of angry people in there. And I'm sitting and watching this, and it's like a movie because people are jumping over chairs, and it is no security. No security. So I go from wow to I'm about to tear up everything that comes near me and others.

Right. I'm about to put hands on everything because I could not believe that we were left. And here's the catch. They started blocking the exits. So they were waiting on us. Right. so they were waiting on us right and this went on for 10 plus minutes without a police officer being in a professional basketball game arena right and then when they actually finally get in there they're ready to pepper spray the players with the uniforms right and so it goes to show

you the environment that it was and you know it's nothing it's nothing that you can use to describe being in an environment because you go from being you excited about where we're going as a team to being really nervous and afraid that somebody's going to hurt you. And you cannot, I mean, you're like this because there's so many people around you and you're trying to protect yourself. And at that point, I mean, people were lining us up with water bottles. I mean, people were lining us up with water bottles. So by the time, I know we got so much to cover, but just to kind of give you a vision of it, is by the time we got back to the locker room,

we had knots, scrapes, cuts, bleeding, jerseys torn. I remember I had a big line over my neck because people were snatching on my jersey, right? And they had cut my neck, right? And so these are all elements that wasn't wasn't wasn't told in that night and we can get to that point and i understood why from a business standpoint this may be weird but you brought it up when you slam the guy over your back before you punch the guy and you said later on he sued you did the guy you punched try to sue you was there any correspondence ever yeah yeah you know, this brawl situation,

this is why I wanted to tell the story because people have a, a particular idea because of a narrative that was actually made, you know, by the media of the players, right? Again, you have to talk to Ron on why he moved and I thought he did a phenomenal job on talking about that. And just so you know, when we filmed this film, we never filmed it together. Everybody was filmed separately in different locations. This particular guy, a dad guy, I didn't know he was the guy that got into Iran as well. Right. And he had already had a history of plotting to do things. He had this yet. He was already documented leading into that season because he tried to start something with Yao Ming.

People don't know that. Right. He literally was trying to start fights and issues with players so you can try to sue them. And you heard the lady talk about him and his friends talking in the back, talking about suing the players now. So it was one of those things where we went through a long list of civil cases and we won all of them, to be honest. So I'm glad you brought up everything that was happening to you guys after the fact,

because as bad as it was in going into the stands, and I'm not, I'm not excusing Ron. I'm not excusing Steven Jackson. You know, I'm not, but you and some of the other teammates, you guys get destroyed in that tunnel. It's so intense. It's almost like a choreographed movie scene where it's like, okay, no more water, more throw things. There's a chair it's almost like a choreographed movie scene where it's like okay no more water more throw things there's a chair that's thrown at you and so it seems like you snap the most of any

moment that you have during that tunnel and we're like you almost want to go back out so what's going on then because you guys were getting worked I felt threatened you know I am a I've always been a no sense type of guy but I'm about the right thing right you know I you know I will I will protect you know by any means but when you go through a

situation like that I mean you never expect to be life-threatening, you know, in a situation where you're severely outnumbered. We had people spitting on us, right? And you go from just angry to, I am trying to destroy everything that comes near me, right? People had the little dustpans and you see it like they're swinging down with, with the, with the brooms and the dust pan, the dust pan with the stick on it. They're swinging it over the top. Yeah. It's crazy.

Some of the angles they're causing, they're trying to cause real damage to us. So at that point I had, I had just flipped out. Like, you know, it was just like, I'm already a very intense guy.

People don't really realize that until you actually be with me. But, um, I had crossed a level that I, I haven't actually seen before. And it led all the way back into, you know, um,

the locker room, uh, which at the time, you know, it's interesting that all of that stuff happened. Um, the police come rushing into the locker room and the first person they asked for was me.

I'm like, wait, what? Right. And I'm like, wait, what? And I'm like, look, I'm not going with y'all. I don't care what you say. I'm getting on this bus, getting on this plane, I'm going home. Reach out to my attorney. And then it led into me and Ron getting into it because he had said something at that point.

What did he say? He had asked, did he think that we were getting in trouble? And I ended up just rushing, right? Like I would just, at that point, I was just, I was really upset. So you fought our test in the locker room? No, the players jumped on me and grabbed. Because I was, at that point, I was really upset. And I think to understand that moment,

you have to understand leading up to it, right? It's like well-documented about my relationship with Ron and everything over the previous two years because of, you know, his ability to want to rap one weekend, his ability to want to retire or just don't even show up, right? Or, you know, go down to the Source Awards on the season and we don't know where he is. But to be honest,

knowing what I know today about mental health, I feel like if I was more educated about that, because remember back then, if you talk about being crazy, you know, it's like a torn, blown out Achilles, right? Or ACL, right? That's like the death of a career. And I thought the Pacers did a really good job on protecting that notion because people started talking about it when Ron was doing some of these things, but nobody never really knew. Like, we never knew what was wrong with him, right? We knew he had a

psychiatrist that was with him all the time, on the road with us, meet with him all the time, but we wasn't educated. And I feel like if I was educated more, I could have been a better teammate. I could have been a better brother. I could have put him in a foxhole, but we didn't understand. It was more like, hey, you're wasting our time. We're trying to win a championship here. We can't defend him. Not knowing that he's really, really struggling. And so that's what led up into that action that night where I was like, look, I'm trying to get after him. Because at that point, I just felt like I knew, like right away, you knew it was over.

And he also admitted, I think a couple of years ago in something he did where he admits, and to his credit, he was like, I was really jealous of Jermaine. I was really jealous of him. It was, it was his team. He was the star. And I think in those moments, that's when our test can be very endearing where you're like, oh, you know what I mean? Like a lot of people wouldn't say that. And I know you guys didn't talk what, like 14 years? years yeah honestly we talked for the first time since that night the first time since the brawl night because we didn't really talk very much after that brawl night was that the big three in California decided to go have lunch we sat down and it shows the maturity of us as men. I had our first real conversation about everything and I really respected it. I think

he really respected it. We put it on the line. We both talked about things that I thought was well needed and it took 14, 15 years to do so. Is there anything from, I mean, I could go forever on this,

but I don't want to, I don't want to take up your entire day. Is there anything from, I mean, the cops asking you to come with them, you're like, no. And then the back and forth with our tests, what was it like to the bus? What was it like to the plane? Is there a memory that you have from that that's a great story? I think the amount of text messages. You know, it was almost quiet.

You know, it was like this crazy, it's like just yelling and screaming, right? When all of us got into the locker room. I remember walking to the shower and it was just like

a funeral. Like it was just like a funeral. You walk out and guys are just kind of sitting there in their daze. You see everybody's on the phone texting and some guys on the phone talking. It was like the spirit left the team. And you almost knew right away that it was going to be some severe penalties that came with it. And I think to a point right from the soul, from anybody that was involved, right? The thing that I did not like, and this is one of the biggest reasons why I wanted to do the doc. the doc.

There's so many respected people that, and to this day, I respect as media analysts was quick to judge. Right?

It's all quick to judge. Right? We as professionals, as athletes, we have a job when we come out and perform a course.

It's preparation. It's hard work put in as dedication to our craft. Right? And so we illustrate that when we come onto the playing surfaces. I was distraught on the amount of people that took an

opportunity to create a narrative that wasn't just about basketball, wasn't even about the event. You started talking about our league like we were out of control thugs, right? You started talking about our hair, braids, tattoos, chains, hip hop, right? It's a cultural attack over an event, right?

A cultural attack, right? And it was personal to me and it's been personal to me because it allowed my league that has awarded me to live out a dream. Right. It took it out. People to take shots at us. Right. And that was that was disheartening in many ways. I mean, you know, Bob Costas. Right. I think he's one of the most iconic figures in, you know, in media history.

And it was thug, thug, thug, thug this, thug that, right? And not even knowing the real information, right? You're taking clips and snippets of things that you saw or somebody told you, right? Versus waiting a little bit to say, let me get my information, right?

That's your job. When you come on television and you start speaking about people and their livelihoods and things like that, you have to do the work. Right. And so we were labeled thugs. A league was labeled out of control. You know, one one media member said it was a league full of criminals. media member said it was a league full of criminals. Yeah, that's, I mean, look, if you said thug now, you'd be done.

You just didn't say it. But it's weird because I remember working for the station that was covering the NBA and we had lost a couple sponsorships. And it was like, whoa, what's going on there because of the stigma around the league. And I think if I have the timeline right here, wasn't like the dress code installed right after. So it was like, Hey, we want to,

let's see everybody in blazers. Like it was now, you know, now it's not even like a thing, but that was a really weird time because it was like this corporate correction to try to get the image of it. And, you know,

I remember there was a fight a couple of years later. I think it was that Nick's fight might've been Nate Robinson, Carmelo, and those guys with his MSG. It was only a couple of years after that. And I was working with somebody on radio and he was like, oh, another black guy for the NBA. And I went, this is the part where it's totally unfair. And I'm sure as a white guy, I'll try to remind myself of how am I looking at things. And I remember being pissed about it because the guy was like another black guy. I'm like, we run baseball brawl bullshit all the time.

We laugh about it. We laugh about it all the time. And that Mellow Nate thing wasn't even that big of a deal. Now again, I'm not absolving the decisions that some of your teammates or other guys in that spot made. I saw what you did. I've seen all the different angles.

I've never had a problem with it. And I'm saying that to you now. I'd say it if I weren't talking to you. I wouldn't want to be dismissive of the mistakes the other guys have made, but it's just a really tough thing to do. And there's also a weird time element of it too, Jermaine, where we kind of glorify some shit we'll hear about the 70s and 80s with guys going into the stands and thinking it's funny.

And wherever we were at as a country or whatever that moment was in 2004, it was a combination of a lot of things where it just was how it was consumed, how it was processed. No one was ever going to have an open mind about any element of that night at all. You're absolutely right on that. And it was interesting when I was going through the arbitration to get reinstated, I wasn't... I got

educated quickly on it, right? About everything that's going on in the other leagues, right? You were 100% right. People have been rushing the mounds and fighting and fans chanting and all this other stuff. And it's almost glorified. You watch NHL and they've been beating the hell out of each other for years.

They take gloves off and they line it up. Nobody's questioning their culture. Nobody's questioning their thugs. Nobody's questioning who they are based off the music that they listen to. That is not a thing.

When you look at it, it's people's opportunity to try to tear down our culture and so when you look at it, it's like, okay, well, it's people's opportunity to try to tear down our culture, which is all, to be completely honest, it's a black culture, right? And so, but I will say this, the NBA is a special place, right? And I am incredibly proud to be a part of that alumni, right? Very few get a chance to do the planning. And I understood that at the end of the day, it's the bottom line, you know, business scenario, right? And there's some things that has to happen.

And I was okay with that. People also don't understand we had a muzzle for this. We could not speak about it, right? And so people are creating these narratives on television and talking about Thug This and out of control players and criminals and all this other stuff. And we couldn't say a word because we had criminal and civil pending. Right. And so we had to we had to sit back and take the narrative. So when people think about, you know, even to a point with me, you know, people think about, OK, well, this guy, I'm just beating up fans.

I'm not knowing that we were fighting for our life in there. And Jack, you got to know Jack. Jack is a guy that is pro-family. He will go sacrifice everything and sometimes to a fault. I've been knowing Jack since we were like 14 years old.

And that's who he's been the entire time. So you can have the conversation with each one of them to ask them what their mindsets were. But for me, when I look at, I understood we were toxic at the time, right? And we needed to go on the island and wait till everything cooled down. But it was opportunities, you know, for the lead to come back or the Pacers. Like, I was a little bit disappointed the Pacers never even spoke about it again.

Even from my perspective, where you knew that I won, right? You knew that I got, people thought I served out my whole suspension and came back. No, the judge said, look, if you would have got to me earlier, you would have never even been suspended. Yeah, for those to remind them, you were suspended 25 games, then you had missed 15. And it was like, no federal judge says he protected himself. He was in the right. We've looked at all of this. And I mean, I think everybody just kind of looks at the bigger picture and there's going to be people listening to this and be like, Hey, our

test, Jack, they went in the stands. Like, I don't want to hear it from you guys. And that part of it, it's, it's kind of tough to push back on. Cause it was like, all right. But, um, you get lumped into that because the Pacers thing was over, you know, the suspensions, the money lost and all that stuff. What was, I have to imagine it happened. What was it like when Stern called you? Um, it was, it was intense, right? It was intense. It was intense. It was one of those things where I don't think anybody can really have a real conversation and understand it at that time because it came right after,

like the day after. And people were upset. I think everybody was upset about this because I'm sitting up I'm up all night watching television and watching people just throw incredible darts at everything about the NBA and us personally. So it was one of those things where we had a conversation, understood where I stood in the deal. I then still chose to support my teammates. And I think it's important, too, for everybody that watches this doc, it is to have you understand the people that is involved. Ron, right, and I say this because people can come to a conclusion on,

on why he didn't, you know, why did he go in the stands and this, that, and that, but we don't understand, you don't understand his level of reaction. When you have mental health issues, right? It's easy for us that don't have mental health issues to come to a conclusion, right? He was already being pushed to a level that he wasn't going to be able to control himself.

And I thought, again, look at this doc. He explains exactly, and I never even heard him say that, right? Even when we played together, his five count, right? What he's taught to do and how he's had to take a deep breath and try to put his mind back into a certain area. And those are one of the things I think when you come to a conclusion after you watch this doc, you got to ask yourself, hey, what would I do in those situations? It comes out again. That's August 10th on Netflix. Netflix series, Untold, Jermaine O'Neill, the producer, and a guy that I really

appreciate talking to, man. So thank you. Thanks for having me on. They say money can't buy happiness. Look at the fucking smile on my face. Ear to ear, baby. You want details? Fine. I drive a Ferrari. 355 Cabriolet.'s up i have a ridiculous house in the south fork i have every toy you could possibly imagine and best of all kids i am

liquid so now you know what's possible let me tell you what's required life advice the address is lifeadvicerr at gmail.com we have a million uh here so all right i don't think i'm going to do a million today that'd be a long long podcast all right hey ryan thanks for reading 64 180 turning 30 in a couple days shout out i enjoyed your last uh i enjoyed your story last week about answering the door shirtless when kilbourne came over craig kilbourne it resonated with me as i'm dealing with a situation with my neighbor. I'm hoping you have some advice for me. I'm working from home full time.

I live in a townhouse complex where the units are pretty close by and people can see into each other's windows. Totally get it. I had that kind of deal in Connecticut. On hot summer days, I don't always wear a shirt around the house. I also keep the blinds open during the day like most people. About three weeks ago, one of my neighbors came to my door asking if I would draw my blinds when not wearing a shirt because they have small kids who can see into my place from theirs. She was perfectly polite, but I was put off by the request. I told her sorry, but no, and she left.

Then last week, I heard from one of my other neighbors that she's been shit-talking me on the community Facebook page. Yes, she was because that's what this kind of person would do. And telling people with kids to be quote mindful. Seriously? Because I don't wear a shirt around my house in the summer? It's got me pretty demoralized, to be honest. I have no clue how to respond to this. And since I found out, it just feels uncomfortable being around the complex. I'm not on Facebook, even if I was. I'm not sure responding a community page is the right response. I'm probably making too much of this, but what are my options? Am I the asshole for not

drawing my blinds while shirtless? All right. Well, I think we all know where I'm going to come down on this one. It's your house. If you want to walk around with a shirt off, go ahead. I don't know. Are we actually going to get... I don't want to turn this into its own community of

response here, Saruti, to the life advice. Although there are certain topics that we do seem to get, like the mystery of the stain, the whiskey thief guy. There's a couple of relationships, ones where people were just kept firing in. I, look, I can only speak to like living in a, in a complex like this, which for the most part was, was fine. There were no issues. Um, my neighbors, believe it or not, liked me. They knew I was a good neighbor. And most of the time I'm just seriously like, you know, watching games. So I'm not really that exciting, um, to be a neighbor. Right. Right. Right. Yeah.

I mean, every now and then, every now, every maybe six months or something, there could be some people that come over and you're like, what's going on over there? But as you get older, it would be more of an issue if you were like the weekend guy. You're like, what's going on with weekend guy again? But, well, the one time I had a party when I had that Kentucky Derby party, which I'm not going to tell a long, belabored story about this. Like, I went for it. I was like, all right, I'm doing a full party.

Cerruti was there. It was a good party. I was proud of myself. It was catered. We had a bartender. We rented a pony. We had a red velvet rope deal. We had carpet, I guess. I mean,

we went for it. And then we did a whole area where all the women could take pictures over and over and over and over and over again. And when we brought the pony, there was a guy that kind of likes to complain about everybody else who complained about the pony. And then he started going around to other community members to be like, aren't you mad about the pony too? So he was trying to like get this army enlisted. And the whole thing was stupid because it was like, hey, the pony's gone. It was here for like a couple hours. And here's why he was mad about the pony is because we didn't invite other kids to come over from the community to pet the pony. Because I knew once I did that, then the vibe of the party is because we didn't invite other kids to come over from the community to pet the pony because I knew once I did that and the vibe of the party is a completely different party. And then there's, you can't then tell, Hey kids, time to walk away from the pony. Like now we want

to be adults at this thing. Like, it's just like, it was an invite only we rented a pony. It was there for an hour or two and the pony left because it was a Kentucky Derby thing. So the fact that I don't think I invited neighborhood kids to come check out the pony was an also weird thing because parents can be really really weird about their kids and I'm sorry for most of the parents that are listening here but you there are times when it's like all you're thinking about is oh and again I can also understand it's just parents like great this asshole brought a pony in and I gotta tell my kid he can't go over and pet the pony. Like, I didn't do them any favors, but I'm sorry. Like, you know, it wasn't about your kids, especially when I'm not even that close with almost everybody in the entire complex because I'm not great at making friends.

So you have to understand the mindset of the person that decides to ask you to put a shirt on inside of your own house. I mean, maybe you could pull a blind down on her side, but I also think it's kind of ridiculous to ask you to do it. You're just a guy with a shirt off. Like what does she do when they go to the beach? You know, she'd have never been to a pool. I mean, unless you're doing something weird, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here. Um, so I, I don't, you know what I mean? Like there's no real solution here, but I wouldn't feel demoralized. That's ridiculous. Like, don't be that hard on yourself. And all I can tell you is those Facebook communities for those kinds of living arrangements. That's also what you're, you got an HOA, you snow plowing, maybe there's a little fitness area. Maybe there's a place where kids can

play. You know, they make sure the leaves are gone and they're just going to shit talk you on Facebook. All right. That's part of what you signed up for. And I got shit talked about the pony and I just, I was like, whatever. I'm like, I don't, do you think when I wake up today, I'm going to worry about the pony discussion on the Facebook page of a West Hartford townhouse community? Like I got, we got Jake Gyllenhaal coming in today, folks. I got bigger things. I just don't understand why they would be that offended by the shirt thing.

What's so weird about you wearing no shirt around kids in your own apartment? It's not like you're walking around the complex with no shirt. Maybe like if you're just in boxer briefs and it's kind of weird and you're outside of your apartment. It's just no shirt. It's not that weird uh i don't understand i would hope that

people in the facebook community are roasting her for even being upset about this so if you're not maybe you should create a burner account and start shit talking her on facebook as well because that doesn't make any sense um but i i think there is a difference too by the way between you because i need more context on the kilbourne you answering the door without the shirt on because did you know he was coming over did you did you not know who was at the door and you just answered it shirtless because that to me is a little weird like if if she came over to your place to like ask you for something or you know i don't know hey do you want to trim the hedges i don't know something random and you

didn't have a shirt on that might be a little bit weird if you didn't know someone's coming over but if you're in your own apartment minding your own business, she needs to mind her own damn business. I just think some people, not all parents, but I think some parents can be obsessively protective or just have these thoughts like, no, this isn't good for little kids to see a man with a shirt on. But again, what do you do when you go to the pool? And again, he's in his own house. So I don't really have... I'd have to...

This story would have to take a real turn with new evidence for me to feel sympathetic towards her side of it. But yeah, I knew Kilborn was coming over. I just don't have a shirt on ever. It's just a hot day. That's on me.

That's on me. I get it. It's a great line from Kilborn though. The funny thing about you is people would be like, oh, Ryan Classic, he's just flexing because he works out. I get it. It's a great line from Kilbourne, though. The funny thing about you is people would be like, oh, Ryan Classic, he's just flexing because he works out. I don't even think that was... That probably had nothing to do with the decision

of you not wearing a shirt. No, I just... I don't know. I just always take my shirt off. It's just comfortable. Now it's a pretty good opportunity for me to take off my shirt. You know what I missed? Why you still always think it was hilarious?

It was when we were working construction, taking your shirt off to go pick up subs and then putting your shirt on to go in and get the subs and then taking your shirts off again once you would go out to like eat your subs these dudes were hot dudes were hot all the time and i just always think it's funny so every now and then like if i if i when i was playing pickup hoops um you know if there's no shirt on i just love driving around in my car with no shirt on because i just thought it was funny i just thought it was like i was comfortable i was more comfortable but like i

had an old piece of shit pickup truck with rusted fenders above the wheel well and my buddies would be like oh there goes fucking hillbilly rossillo on his way to pick up. I think usually dudes grow out of that stage, but you're still, listen, you're still doing it. Respect. Yep. Just trying. It's just a number, dude. Yeah. All right. Let's get one more in here. 6'1", 60, 20-year-old guy, runner body. I'm going to

give our emailer here, but I'm catching a lot of guys below 180 or so saying runner body. And I'm telling you, if you're running, if you're putting in the miles, that's great. Don't say runner body if you're not running. I'm going to go ahead and say that this guy's doing it. I've just seen a lot of those lately.

I'm a junior at a Big Ten school who started a casual thing with one of my best friends earlier this summer. We had been friends for most of last year. We started hooking up towards the end of the school year. We both confessed that we had strong feelings for each other, but we were in different cities this summer and didn't want to commit to anything.

All right, pretty standard here. Breakup, summer breakups. We kept talking about this past week, and we kept talking, and this past week she came to visit me. We had a great time. Once again, she told me she has very strong feelings for me. However, she only got out of the relationship

with a toxic ex a few months ago and says she isn't ready for anything serious yet. The most thing she's ready for is to just keep hooking up casually and that she doesn't see herself getting a relationship anytime soon to complicate things. We both are also going to be working

in the same company starting next summer. So we're talking, what, a 2022 summer job? Okay. Now they're planning ahead. It's large enough that we won't have to work together, but we'd still be in the same office every day. How do I move forward with this? She's the best girl I've ever had a thing with, and I think down the road

or down the line we could have something special. And at the same time, I don't want this to impact my work situation, especially if we aren't engaging in a more meaningful relationship. Is there a good way to move forward that's not either giving up on her or moving forward in something that I'll inevitably feel is too casual? Here's the first thing. Let's not worry about 2022 summer. You're a junior in college. It's like a year away here. Technically, in 10 months or whatever, if you want to get weird

about it. Let's not worry about 2022. Let's not do that. You guys are in college. I know I can sound a little dismissive of college relationships at some point, but I'm just telling you, like, most of them aren't going anywhere, man. All right? Most of them aren't. And, you know, a real relationship, you don't break up every Christmas and every summer. All right? Because, and the problem with any of these college deals is there's always, and it's not always male or female. I think it's it's very um

split on this other guys are probably bigger jerks about that age than women are um there's usually one person that actually doesn't want to take the break right and it sounds like you're the guy that doesn't really want to take the break and it sounds like she may be being completely honest or she's running around a little bit because the whole toxic x thing i've used that to not be serious and really it's it's kind of up to you to like she's she's deciding this thing that has nothing to do to do with you is now a barrier to you and it's that's i mean look it's true in some cases um i think there's other times where it's just an excuse and mechanism to be able to say like hey i'm just getting out of something and i'm i'm you know i'm not i'm not ready and again i'm not dismissing the times where it is accurate because it can be i do think there are

other people that use it to be like hey this is kind of a good out so it sounds like she likes the convenience of it she obviously likes you she came to visit you you know what i mean um you seem like you want a little bit more i mean there's only really two ways to go with this thing uh you can pretend you're not interested at all and lie to yourself and kind of blow her off a little bit Because if you've only been like awesome and accommodating and all of these things over and over again, and then she still is like, I'm not sure about you. Then you might be getting played a little bit here. But it doesn't sound like you even have that in you because you're already worried about 2022 work summer. Other than that, I would say like we could do the whole, hey, talk to her about your feelings, which we've definitely thrown out at times. This one, I don't think it I don't think it matters.

I think you need because if I had said like hey when you were 27 all right and you're like hey remember that girl that you kind of hung out with and it didn't really work out when you were 20 and you were all worked up about it you're thinking about it all the time which is normal to have it happen in the moment 99 out of 100 times you're going to be like oh yeah that thing like it's just none of this is really going to matter as much as you think it is in the moment, which I know is a really hard thing to understand in the moment.

But I just, I would say, instead of the blow off avenue, I would just relax about the whole situation because you're clearly a worrier and you're worried about 2022. I would just relax. If she wants to hang out with you, and she's not hanging out with a million other dudes in the meantime, maybe you have some

scaled-down version of a college relationship. And the less you're stressed about it, actually, the less stressful the relationship will be. I don't know. Both of those could also not work. So I don't know what to tell you on this one, other than the last 10 minutes we've just been on. What it sounds like to me is that she probably got out of a toxic relationship i don't think she's obviously not lying to you but i think she likes you but she also wants to see what else is out there like she's dating out for the first time she doesn't want to you know be exclusive with someone right off the bat and she wants to see what else is out there so i think you have to just kind of accept that and if you are still interested in her i think ryan the two options that you put forward do make sense although

i will say like if he he seems like too nice of a guy to play the dick i'm i don't care about you move like that reminds me of like remember when lebron went to miami and he was like all of a sudden a villain but he like that's not his personality he doesn't want to be the villain he's like oh no i'm a villain like it doesn't work like i don't think if you're not that guy it's just not going to work for you so i think you just stick around if you know you can keep hooking up that's totally fine as long as it doesn't like mess you up mentally and then stick around you know what they say hang around the basket and like you'll find buckets like i think that's what you got to do in this situation like maybe she'll come around and finally be like

actually no this guy's awesome and i want to date him and then the the issue will kind of solve itself eventually yeah if not you should keep doing your own thing yeah you could go on a date or one of her friends is going to see you too that might yeah well you know he should 100 date other people as well though because then that could actually make her jealous if you i mean you know not trying to be a dick about it but yeah like all right go out maybe she'd be like actually i need to lock this guy down yeah wow this guy's a real player and a runner body and he's like lebron of dating in college Okay, I am taking some time off, but don't worry.

Don't worry. We have you covered. We have a string of podcasts that we've been putting together over the last couple weeks, so I want to thank Kyle and Saruti for all of their work, and also Stefan for the work on today's pod.

But we have a bunch of stuff, maybe like six or seven episodes depending on how it all plays out because i do want to do a college football preview thing as we get closer um to that start date but it depends on kind of where i'm going to be or what's because honestly like to be more transparent there was a bigger trip planned and now with everything that's going on all over the world uh i don't i don't know how viable this deal is, but I am going to finally take some time off. But you're not going to miss any podcasts. So next week we have Malcolm Gladwell, Saruti.

I know there's a big Muhammad Ali two-parter that we're doing with Sugar Ray Leonard, Bob Arum, and Jonathan Ige, who wrote the most recent Ali book that's terrific. We've got Matt Taibbi on this book about media, which is just fascinating. And it's so honest and true. Honestly, I thought it was so good. So we had him on. We also have Peter Stark on who wrote Astoria. He was terrific. And then we're also going to leave Montville on who did Tall Men Short Shorts, who I was lucky enough to get a quote on the back of the book. His guy asked me to do it and read the book, and the book was great. We've got a bunch of life advices in there with Kyle as well. However, we're going to two a week for the rest of August.

There will be two Ryan Russillo podcasts every week. Then once I'm back and I do a football thing, we're just going to be back to normal three a week and good to go. You're not going to miss any episodes. I want to thank everybody for all the hard work that they put in on all of this to make sure we'd have it covered for the audience. So there wasn't just some two week gap for me taking a normal vacation. I'm not saying I'm always going to do it, but in two years, we haven't missed a week. And it's been two years since I left ESPN.

So we've had podcasts for you every single week since then. So I hope you enjoy, subscribe, rate, review, all that stuff. We will talk to you live when we're back. Thank you.