The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Bill Simmons on the Polarizing Rockets. Plus, CFB With Bruce Feldman. | The Ryen Russillo Podcast

Episode Date: December 4, 2019

Russillo sits down with Bill Simmons to discuss Rockets-Spurs, a blown call, and why the Rockets are so polarizing. They also talk about the Nets, Raptors, Heat, and 76ers (2:29). Then Ryen is joined by The Athletic’s Bruce Feldman to discuss USC’s coaching situation, Greg Schiano's return to Rutgers, Ryan Day’s success at Ohio State, Florida State speculations, the College Football Playoff, and more (56:40). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

really good show playing for you today stayed up watching hoops didn't realize the houston san antonio debacle so i was like all right i'll go back and watch that one whoa black rob we got bill simmons An emergency Bill Simmons. Why does everyone hate the Houston Rockets? I have pages of evidence for why that is the case. And let me tell you right now, people hate the Houston Rockets. So we dig deep into that one. About 45 minutes on that.

A little Miami Heat. A little Toronto. Maybe a little Jokic. Some games last night. And then Bruce Feldman on all of the stuff for college football. All the coaching stuff i think more than anything he's down at lsu uh right now getting ready for the sec title game so i don't even know if i'm gonna preview the sec title game i want to talk a lot about the

coaching stuff so we're gonna do that and we're fired up we have a great show for you today i feel like there's one other thing that i'm leaving out nope that's pretty much it all right state farm is our presenting sponsor. Today's episode of the Ryan Russillo Show from The Ringer is brought to you by State Farm. If you're fumbling with insurance, State Farm agents are here to help because with over 19,000 agents that are local to you and available to help, whether you connect in person by phone or through the State Farm mobile app, agents are here to help. So go with the one that has coverage and agents you can count on. State Farm.

Talk to an agent today. Also, Zorro. I get excited about the Zorro ads. I just start thinking about a yard, some edging. Zorro.com is where you'll find everything you need for business of any size in almost any industry. They have tools, equipment, and supplies for everything you need, whether you need stuff for industries like electrical, plumbing, manufacturing, or more. Zorro's got it from brands you know and trust. And Zorro.com offers amazing customer service from real people based in the U.S.

Visit Zorro.com forward slash dual, D-U-A-L, in all lowercase letters to sign up for Zmail and get 15% off your first order. I was watching a guy do some plumbing work where he was cornering the pipes, and just the way he fit it in. Look, if you get a home improvement video on Instagram, I could look up. It'd be a week later. Like, I can't believe the way they're doing this insulation. This is incredible.

I maybe want to get back into the insulation game. Okay. Bill Simmons is here. This had to be done. And actually, I think the argument can be made that we haven't done these as much as we probably thought we would when we joined up. You want people wanting more. Yeah. But what if you give them zero? Zero is not good. Yeah. Zero is not good. So we haven't done any NBA stuff. I was driving in. We were texting back and forth. And we're like, let's just do it. Let's share with the world.

After this Rockets loss, they blow this lead. And it's not just a blown loss and a loss to a Spurs team that hasn't been good this year. Then immediately after the game, I'm reading Tim McMahon's piece where it says a source, which we both know who it is. Now, look, I mean, I can figure this one out. And I wasn't told by anybody, but I would bet money I know who the source was. That was already getting the message out was like, yeah, we feel confident in the NBA, you know, review this and either, you know, declare us the winner or, you know, we'll replay the last 750. I've talked to some people that are like, that's absolutely ludicrous. I've loved the NBA since I was four years old.

I never remember them doing that ever in any game. So I was going back. Even during the cocaine era. I don't think it's ever happened. So to be, if we want to do the technical part of it, because I was asking, I was like, look, I'm going to talk about this. I need to know what's going on. And it's like, okay, the only way,

the Rockets have to protest it, which I imagine they will. And then it would have to be a misapplication of a rule. It's not just a bad call. And in this case, the hardened dunk is a bad call. And then there's a confusion of whether or not they wanted to challenge it. And the rest are like, well, you can't challenge it because they may have got it wrong. Look, they got the call wrong. They also blew a 20 plus point lead. They refs get a lot of calls wrong. You can't

replay a game. And what about the gambling implications? What about the fantasy implications? What do we do with all the points? What about rest? What if it messes up? There's no way. So I texted you and I think we've both been hearing the same thing we haven't really heard it that much publicly but i think the rockets are the most despised franchise within nba circles that i can ever remember okay well let's go over everybody hates them the resume um they they play the victim harder than any team in the league which is rule number one of how to get people to hate you is just whining bitch about and it's not even about this one the problem is they already have on the resume after that

warrior series two years ago where they released they they gave it to zach low they gave it to rachel nichols it was like here's our study our unbiased study of all the calls that were missed and all the points that we lost out on. And it's like, actually, you know, we would have won these games. And you go, well, first of all, all possessions are connected. And when I went through it, I was like, what is this? And they released it and they released it to try to get like the public opinion on their side. And that's what that quote was about last night. It wasn't that the Rockets were confident they were going to get a win or that the league would look into this and then reward them. It was, let's, let's get the message out there so that we can get in front of this.

And it's almost like a PR play, which to me is like, are you really like, to me, that's insulting. Right. And it also wasn't the reason they lost the game. They blew a 20 point lead. They had the ball at the end of, I think, regulation and overtime and the second overtime and got bad shots every time.

And they blew the game. And they lost to a team. I was watching it in disbelief. It was like, Lonnie Walker, Purtle. Lonnie Walker went crazy. Aldridge wasn't even playing. Lonnie Walker went nuts. DeRozan took a charge. DeRozan took a charge. So here'san took a charge.

So here's the thing. They have now positioned themselves as the annoying sport parent on a youth soccer team that's just complaining about everything all the time. And eventually during the games, everyone kind of moves away from them. And it really peaked last year. And we talked about it on my podcast after that first game in the Warriors series when they just went nuts for three days about the lack of calls. And I actually thought it really affected them for the second. They were so upset that game one didn't go their way.

I thought it threw them off their game for the rest of the series. And that, as I had mentioned before, was kind of like what I thought was this propaganda thing where they were going back and looking at the playoffs, but that was released after that Monday. Right. And the problem is for people like, look, here's who stick up for the Rockets, their staff, their fans and Russian assets. Okay. Because no one else likes it. And that's fine. You know what I mean? Like I, there are things that I want to get to here where I'm fair about the fact that they really should have a couple threes late. Like, they have that absurd stretch of not being able to make a three in game six and game seven against the Warriors. Like, they were going to win a title that year. They had home games where it's like, let's find a way to take down this insurmountable thing, which, you know, people saying, oh, the Warriors are going to win seven or eight titles like that stuff's stupid because it doesn't really work that way. But they were this thing that could not be toppled. And Houston is probably sitting around after the series going, you know, we actually were close like we should have if the math works out. Averagely, you know, we would have been able to figure this whole thing out.

But the problem is, is that it's awful to watch. Okay? Anybody that sits back and says, this is fun to watch, you're only a Rockets fan. And I've already done my rant where I can't stand it. I can't stand it. I hate watching them. I watch them less on TV because I know exactly what it's going to be. Well, now they've added Westbrook to even make it more unwatchable.

And with his triple-double, which you pointed out the history on that one last night. Yeah, because he was 7 for 29 for 19 points. And I was like, I don't really ever remember a box score like this. So I went in the play index on basketball reference, which is really fun. And only five guys since 1976 had taken 30 or more shots and scored less than 20 points, 20 points or less than a game ever. That's 44 years or something. So it was a historic Westbrook performance on top of Harden goes 24 for 24 in the, for the free throw line. Capella is a 2020 Lonnie Walker has 28 points in 30 minutes.

It was just a really weird game. I'm with you, though. I hate watching the Rockets. I respect what Harden's doing. I think it's amazing. I just don't personally like it. I don't like watching everybody stand around. It's the basketball I hate. I want you to respect it less. Here's my argument, okay?

Now, for them to bitch about calls is the ultimate irony because the league still hasn't figured out how to properly officiate Harden. And 1982 is the first year I remember a season. Okay. Seven years old. That's Sixers team into 82, 83. Yeah. The cover sports illustrated the Sixers are going for 70 and the faux faux faux thing.

I mean, that was an insane team. I did not chart games back then. You weren't charting games? I wasn't charting games. But I cannot think of, and I'll lean on you here, which player has ever been, or which player has ever benefited from the way he's officiated the way Harden is.

Can you think of one? I cannot think of one. There's like LeBron, Michael Jordan. Moments? Yeah, where it's just like at some point you get respect calls. Bird had it. I think you hit a certain level of greatness. To me, it's more like

a Shaq thing where they just don't know what to do game to game and every game seems to be interpreted differently. And that was the big thing of Shaq's career, right? If you're gonna if you were gonna give him the calls on the physicality where every single

team is just ramming an elbow in his back and hacking him, pulling his shoulders down. If you were going to give him those calls, then he could shoot 40 free throws in a game. And if you decide to look the other way, then the other, then the other team's like, oh, this is great. You basically have a two by four and you're killing Shaq. And so that's different than Harden, but it reminds me of it in that I don't think the refs have all agreed on how to handle it. So each game is different. That's totally fair.

Okay, now let me ask it a different way. Not because I'm trying to get the answer I want, because I think we're still very close on the same page. And the Shaq thing is always this funny argument. It's like, well, you could also argue there are charges all the time, but you can't do that to Shaq. But at the same time, like anybody swiping at the arm, like I don't't know that you can just call every one of those. Cause it's almost like against the rules. He was so powerful on the plus minus of life hardens plus. Okay. Like I'd like to think, do you think you're a plus on the plus minus of life? I hope so. Right. I'd like to think I am. I'd like to reach a Steph Curry level of plus, But Harden, for him to do some of this stuff where it's like, man, can't get any calls, can't get anything.

I'm like, dude, okay, first of all, by the way, the last play was a travel that the Houston broadcast was saying he was fouled on his side where he dribbled in to initiate the contact. And that DeRozan was moving a little bit. And the broadcast is like, yeah, they'll probably overturn this one. Like, they're not going to overturn this one. I gotta say, the Houston broadcast team is the funniest part of this whole Harden experience. It's like Pravda. They're like, oh, he

got killed! And then they show the replay. It's like worse than Tommy Heidsen. Where Harden's just lurching into people. And then he has this

way of, because he's lefty, everyone always forgets he's lefty as he's coming at them full speed like a bull. And then he lurches into them, he puts his left hand out. And then the refs just kind of go

ah, ah, ah, foul on the other team. They don't know what to do. The Houston broadcast, if they were on a boat heading down the Niagara Falls, they'd be like, look at this view. You know? This is incredible. Look at that. Sun is out. We get a nice little rainbow mist coming off. We've talked

about how we don't like the Houston thing. I think it's important. We laid out one thing of why the league and the other teams don't like the Rockets. It's the whining, the bitching, all that stuff. Daryl's my friend. And I've said this to him. It's nothing I haven't said to him before. That's one piece.

The second piece is the China thing, which is still simmering and still not only makes the owners mad because there's real money at stake that they might lose, but the players like LeBron, who's gone to China 15 years in a row. And now all this money that's been jeopardized. Everybody's pissed about that. And then the third thing I think is just that he is a famous GM. And he does stuff like he comes on my podcast to do the book of basketball and he does Michael Lewis profiles. And most GMs are just behind the scenes and the other GMs know they're good, but they don't. And I think people feel like Daryl's a self promoter and they've felt that way since last decade. So you put all these three things together.

It's funny knowing him and I've known him longer and I don't pretend to know him even close. Like I know, I mean, it's not debatable. You know him far better than I do. You're much closer with him than I am. I've always liked him and respected him a ton. I've just known him longer from his first days. When he was helping with the bank that was doing the Celtics purchase. Right, 2002.

The owners that were buying Wick and Steve and those guys were like, this guy's so impressive, can we have him? Right. And then he was like. He got thrown into the deal. You're going to understand, like, Daryl wanted to be a GM so bad that he was like, all right, there's no way I'll ever be a GM because all this numbers stuff. We wanted to be an MLB GM. He didn't know how to get in there.

Yeah, so he was like, I'll just make a billion dollars instead and buy a team. That was his way. That's the origin of Daryl. Like, I'll run a team. Oh, I can't get a GM job because of my background. All right, let me just go make a billion dollars quick and I'll do it that way. I don't think the self promoter thing is fair. I don't think it is at all. Here's why I'm just telling you why I'm telling you that's a thing for him. Okay. But the reason GM's bitch to me about Daryl is because there's bad trade offers. And then there's a guy in your fantasy league who every single Monday

is offering you like Rex Burkhead for Saquon Barkley. Okay. And that's like, Daryl hit it so hard on the hardened trade that I think sometimes when you have one of these epic franchise altering trades where you really didn't give up that much, it didn't set you back all that much, that you'll be like, well, I'll just keep offering a million of these hoping somebody says yes once. He's playing the odds.

But the thing is, I've talked to him about this. He actually believes he calls everybody. He's constantly talking about how to improve his team with all the other GMs. He doesn't want to be the guy in the fantasy league who trades Saquon Barkley, but only talk to one of his buddy and the other eight teams go, wait a second, you're trading Saquon Barkley.

Why didn't you call me? Right. When you email me, why don't you tell us where you're trading? I wasn't a league like that. Just quit it. So he's the opposite of that, where he's just like, I'm talking to everybody all the time. And if anybody is available, I want to know, and i want to talk and i'm ready to trade right but they are like hey man daniel house is a nice fucking story but but you're not getting aaron

gordon for right like i'm you know just stop stop with it so that drives people the self-promoter thing i think is is inaccurate i always think that there's an there's an anti-numbers thing as much as it's accepted in every single front office. But like, that was always the hinky thing. Well, it made people's job harder. It did. Because they went from this whole eye test scouting, I've been in the league to, this guy just figured out a new way to, to evaluate players and all these new wrinkles. And then those guys have their owners who are all rich guys who want to think like their head. And they're like, why aren't we doing this shit? Why?

I just read that Michael Lewis piece. What's our advanced metric situation. So all of that stuff just leads to resentment. And I think the Sloan conference also leads to resentment for him too. Yeah. But for he's the only GM who has his own conference. Right. But that's him.

Like, look, he was one of the guys at the forefront of this whole thing. So he deserves credit for all this stuff. And I hope people that listen to this, like, understand, like, this is, this is the part where it's admiration for Daryl. And like, to think it's self-promoting because he goes on with you, you've known him a long time. He's a really likable guy.

He's actually awesome to talk to, but I'm not that close with him. But the Sloan thing to act like that's some sort of negative. It's like, hey, everybody, you were behind. We were advanced. We figured out some of this stuff. It's like anything else. I think it's like hey everybody you were behind we were advanced we figured out some of this stuff it's like anything else i think it's the trades i think it's the the bitching well that that's the stuff that's pushed it to another level is the whining and the bitching okay back to hard because this is the other thing i struggle with right we watch it we don't like it i don't know why anybody would like it did you see the stat that in 2019, the top like 12 point performances, highest point totals in a game?

And I think he had 11 of the 12. It was something like that. It was like hard in 61, hard in 60, hard in 59. So we're just talking calendar year? Hard in 58. Yeah, just in 2019. Because of that stretch when everybody was hurt. And that was the other thing too.

Like when he was putting up those absurd numbers last season, I gave him credit. Like I didn't like watching it necessarily, but they had to do it and they won those games and he kept that injury riddled team afloat. So that's something where I go, Hey, they deserve credit. I went through it this morning. His last like high usage rate before like Uber usage rate was 16, 17, the third season, 55 win team since that time 17, 18 18, 19 19, 20 he's absolutely cranked up the usage rate and guess what

they've won more games so I watch it I hate it I look at these absurd shooting performances but Westbrook has the all time usage season in 16, 17

where it was like hey Russ is great this is amazing and then you look back on it and you go we weren't saying that okay I know you weren't because you voted for Harden

that year which is even funnier. I just thought. Just funnier now the way we're talking about these guys. I was on the right side of history with that one. I know you've talked about the t-shirt. So the top four right now, top four, four of the top five usage seasons are Westbrook 16-17, Harden last year, Harden this year. Okay. The Kobe season 15 years ago where people actually kind of lost their minds that year. And that ended up being the all-timer.

And then Westbrook. So you have teammates now with four of the top five usage rates ever, ever in NBA history. And I look at Harden's numbers and go, okay, the calls absolutely drive me crazy, but it is a skill for him, and he benefits from it. He's an incredible, some of the threes that he makes, although I'd argue some of the threes he's been allowed to take

is leading to some of these shots that are so difficult that you're like, maybe this is why you're having some of these bad shooting nights. It's been bad for Trae Young. Yeah, definitely. Trae Young's like, oh, cool, a 32-footer, I'll take it.

It's like your team's 4-16. The grown-ups are doing it. Yeah, people are like, Trae Young, watch out for this guy It's like, your team's 4-16. The grown-ups are doing it. Yeah. People are like, Trey, watch out for this guy. It's like, his team's 4-16. Settle down. They do some special where he looks at Harden and goes, I learned it from watching you.

So when I think of these offensive numbers, and I'll see these things and be like, Harden's doing things you've never done before, I'll be like, okay, but there's more space, the way he's called, and it's almost like saying Luke Falk or Connor Halladay or Gardner Minshew are the greatest quarterbacks in college football history

because of the way Washington State plays. Can we at least admit that as great as Harden is, and he is great, that you've almost got to cut off 20% of it because of the absurdity of how isolated it is what they do. And here's what kills the case for him.

Luka is doing basically the same thing right now, but in a better and more efficient way where he's not hogging the ball as much. And I wonder if this is just where the league is headed because all of these rules have shifted toward just having one ball-dominant guy. Luka has the ball all the time. If you're watching Dallas versus Houston.

Yeah, there's like possession numbers, like tracking of how much you have the ball. I'll look it up as you're talking, but I think he's number one. Yeah, if you watch Dallas and you watch Houston and you're just like, how often do these guys have the ball? Luka probably has it as much as Harden does.

The difference is it's more fun to watch him because he's using his teammates way more and he's trying to do pick and rolls and slashing kicks, stuff like that. The thing I hate about Houston, how many times have you done this where it's like, Oh, I'm flicking channels. Oh, I wonder what the score of the Rockets game on. You go to the Rockets game. It takes two seconds for the direct TV feed to goes black. And then the Rockets come on. And Harden's just at midcourt dribbling. I would say 75% of the time I flip to a Rockets game,

that's the first sight you see is just Harden dribbling and the other four guys standing around. And I know it works, and I know he's historically amazing. I just don't personally enjoy it. I just don't. So I haven't watched a lot of the Rockets this year. And I'll come in when he has 50 points in the third quarter. Like, all right, maybe he'll score 70. I'll watch this. I watched last night because I want to see if he could break the free throw record. That's why I came on in the fourth quarter. You wanted to see the free throw record broken? I want to see if he could make 25 for 25. I was excited for that. I like shit like that.

I know. I actually, you do like stuff like that. That's where I go. Like, cause I was excited for that. I like shit like that. I know. Actually, you do like stuff like that. That's where I go. Because I was all in on Miami and Toronto. Yeah, that was a great game. And honestly, left impressed. Toronto's better than I thought they'd be. Wrong about Toronto. Wrong before the season started. Miami, though,

is so unique. But I don't want to move off of the Harden thing yet. Because I know, I know kind of like if you're listening right now, you're thinking, okay, you guys are leaving out a big part of this. And this is always my anti-hardened part of it where I give them credit for

doing what they seemed unthinkable. The usage thing as bad as it is to watch works. And Daryl is looking at this going, Hey, Priscilla, you idiot. This is the math and we're better. So shut up.

You know, and that's where I can't really give him a counter to that. No, you can because the inside of the NBA guys did it yesterday. It's the playoffs. It's the playoffs and it's the rhythm of the other guys. And I thought Kenny and Charles did a really good job last night talking about how hard it is to just stand there, not have the ball a lot, and just be expected, especially in tight games

when the defense really ramps up and they're doubling hard. It's the Westbrook in the playoffs thing. Like I watched you for 82 games, ignore the rest of us and get every single stat. And now I need you. Now you want me to make a 17 footer off a double? On command.

With two minutes left on the road, I know you haven't touched the ball more than 10 times in the last hour, but make this 22-footer for me. I think it's really hard. I completely agree with you there. They were talking about how Robert Horry was one of the few people

who could just not touch the ball and make the biggest shots of a game. It's a really rare skill. Not a lot of people can do it. Okay, hold on, Bill. More on the Rockets here in a second. Yes, this Rockets segment's still going. Bill knows when he came after me, he was like, can we get Russillo? Because he was like, hiring is challenging. And I was like, yeah, I think it'll

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All right, more on the Rockets. So if you go play off flame outs, I've got a bunch for you here. And this is the problem for Harden. And he did that sit down with Stephen A. And Stephen is like, hey, you know, people say you search for calls and this, this. And Harden's like, I just let my game do the talking. And you're like, can't you lie this time? I want you to lie. I think I just did a shack on that Harden.

But it was, it was like, you like, what are you talking about? Like, just, I don't know. But maybe he's like, yeah, no, what are you talking about? Like, just, I don't know, but maybe he's like, yeah, no shit, I search for calls. And,

you know, so, 16-17, three seed, right? They lose to the Spurs in the second round in six games.

Remember, they blew out the Spurs in game one, and you're like, oh, man, the Spurs thing is done. Game six,

elimination game, hardened two for 11, 10 points. Was that the game after they lost an OT and it seemed like he got a concussion in the game five, remember? Yeah. He got hit in the head in the fourth quarter.

It seemed like they were going to put the Spurs away. And then from that point on was awful the rest of the way. But yeah, that's on his resume. He was terrible. It is on his resume. And I just want to double check what the game five. Game five went into OT and they could have won

and he was really bad and I think he had a concussion. And he also had a concussion when our test elbowed him in the head that time. Remember that? I do remember that one. He had 33.

But see, that was one of those deals where maybe. He had most of the points Are you telling me he had a concussion or are you doing speculation concussion right now? I am reasonably sure he had a concussion. All right.

All right. So I guess that one doesn't count. No, it counts because they've never came out and said he had a concussion. So it's on his resume. He was terrible down the stretch of game five and he sucked in game six. One seed against Golden State, 17-18. That's when they missed all those three throws. If Chris Paul doesn't have the hamstring problem,

you're probably looking at a ring for Harden in this group. We did this when Zach and I did the Harden pod. You can't leave out 2015 in this because Game 6 against the Clippers. I'm not there yet. Well, Game 6 against the Clippers got benched. He got benched. I went to that game. They fucking benched him in a do-or-die game.

He was out. You got to start there. The great Clippers comeback game for houston he's not in the game not only is he not in the game he's sitting on the bench with a towel over his head as his teammates are getting into the comeback i was watching it going like wow if are they gonna trade him what's gonna happen and then in the last four minutes he got more involved so we've got that one you've got that one. We've got the Spurs one. Concussion, TBD. Game six, he goes 10 of 24, 4 of 12 from three, 32 points. So the overall stats were good, but that's when they had that stretch where they didn't,

they weren't going to win that game at Golden State. But they got game seven at home. He goes 12 of 29. So yeah, it's 32, 6 and 6. It's 12 of 29 when you're supposed to be an MVP, not like a top five guy like an arguably arguably top three guy and you say hey whatever guys had bad games kobe's game 2010 against the celtics he was terrible our test bailed him out but harden's got too many of them well you you

skipped over game six they had a big lead at the half remember golden state got hot in the second half yeah i think houston was gonna lose that game at home but i think houston was up like 17 in that game 17 18 something like that was was a third quarter dominant think they were going to lose that game at home. But I think Houston was up like 17 in that game. 17, 18, something like that. Golden State was a third quarter dominant team back then. I'm just saying, that wasn't a blowout. All right, so 2015 Western Conference Finals, they got smoked in that series when he was at Houston. Against the Warriors.

Elimination game, though, 2 of 11, and that's when he was on the ground. Remember that? Like, he was on the ground. So whether it's the Spurs, the non-comeback comeback against the Clippers, that game where they didn't have a chance. The all-timer, my favorite Steph game ever is last year, game six, second round. They're at home. Duran is done. Curry has the terrible first half, then goes ballistic. And Twitter has to delete everything

from the previous two hours. And he was 11-25. So my point is, it's like, despite how great the history is for all of this stuff, we have a lot of evidence here that something's wrong with this dude when all the chips are on the table. And I don't know what the counter to that is other than you're going to tell me it's random math. Cause I'm not going to buy that. Zach said on the Harden pod, we did that.

He's guard Carl Malone. Where everything he does during the regular season, during the playoffs, didn't totally transfer, and he never really had that moment where he came through. I thought that was a good analogy. I was jealous of it. Because Carl Malone, 50 years from now, will be remembered as the sixth best player of all time.

Because all of us will be dead. We won't be able to argue it. And there's going to be stat nerds in 2072 who are going to be like Karl Malone I have him ranked fourth yeah the Karl Malone

stuff unfortunately we were there so we saw it yeah he was really good but you didn't want him in a big game if you had

John Stockton passing you the ball as the first option down the floor for 15 years in regular season games you're going to put up monster numbers

and it was it was a weird era I don't know what he would be like now years in regular season games, you're going to put up monster numbers. And it was, it was a weird era. I don't know what he would be like now. He's the pace was a lot slower. So Jack Paul Millsap post prime, the teams are shooting 65 field goals a game. You know, everything is slow, 20 seconds. And if you had like this Stockton Malone pick and roll thing, that could be your entire offense. like this Stockton Malone pick and roll thing,

that could be your entire offense. And if he scored 29 points and you won 75 to 70, it would be like scoring 50 points now. I don't know how you would translate it. As much as we get really nasty sometimes, the disrespect of previous generations, and I could almost do an entire pod on what's fair and how we compare all these different eras. I don't like, what are you going to do? Watchary poppins and go the fucking cgi dude umbrella doesn't

really hold forrest gump yeah the cgi and forrest gump that movie won an oscar it's brutal now when you watch it like oh my god this is terrible yeah but like mary poppins shouldn't be messed with you know agree you know like forrest gump i'll allow it a little bit but what were you supposed to do you know what i mean jurassic park the same we had i mean people thought jurassic park was like jude i had a i had a roommate from norwell south shore yeah and we came back to college that summer after jurassic park had been out and i'll never forget he was like did you see jurassic pack and i was like no i didn't see it he's like dude you not seeing jurassic pack in the theater is the biggest mistake of your life. And that movie has not aged great.

No, but it's still Jurassic Park. You can still watch it a little. But it's kind of what I do. That's my whole point of Southern. I think we have so many of these ball-dominant isolation players that are playing in an era with absurd spacing compared to what we saw before with officiating which you know isn't everything and sometimes I'll see a clip of Jordan getting tackled by the Pistons you're like that wasn't every time down the court guys okay so relax on that one but I think we need to just like the college quarterbacks not every college quarterback right now is the best college quarterback in the history of the game the clock clock is different. The play calling is different. Everybody's spread out all over

the place. You're throwing it more on first down. You're doing all the seven on seven, these elite camps for quarterbacks. Quarterbacking is like ramped right up. And I think some of that is happening with still very special players at the top of the NBA, but putting up some of these stat lines where I go, am I really supposed to believe that this is the same as it would have been 20 years ago? And that's actually being, I think, more respectful to some of the previous players. And the rule changes matter because, so I'm researching this Dr. J podcast I'm going to do with Brian Koppelman this week. Oh, no way. And yeah, who saw him at Nassau. Are you serious? Nassau? Why did I say Nassau?

Nassau. It's the old world. Nassau. The Coliseum. Yeah, some in the Coliseum. I'll be honest right there. I didn't know what you were talking about, and I just wanted to keep it moving.

So I was like, wow. Nassau. I thought it was Nassau Coliseum. I can't put it in common. But I thought there was a chance there that I was like, is he talking about something I have no idea? Another league? Yeah, just keep moving. So the league 79, 80, 81,

culminating in that Sixers Celtics epic bloodbath where game seven, if you watch that on ESPN Classic, it's basically rugby crossed with basketball and nobody is taking a shot for more than 17 feet. All 10 guys are in the paint. It was really hurting some of the athletic guys they had, like Julius Irving, David Thompson, guys that, you know, they wanted to open things up.

So that's when they put in the illegal defense for the 81-82 season. And if you look at Dr. J's stats and the Lakers stats and people like that, the field goal percentages just go up. And the scoring goes up. And then that Lakers team that people like that, the field goal percentages just go up and the scoring goes up. And then that Lakers team that actually won the title, which is kind of, if you had the greatest team of all time tournament, it's, it's my sleeper, the 82 Lakers. Cause they could go,

they could go Kareem McAdoo, Jamal Wilkes, Nixon magic and go small ball. And they had a press and they did this whole thing, but they use what the new rules were. And the fact that, you know, pace made more sense, slicing into the lane, you had more room. There weren't just big bodies in there. And it changed the course of the rest of the decade. Nobody remembers this now, but then we saw the same thing happen with Nash and the sons in 04. And now I feel like the last couple of years, we're seeing this other shift where the math, everybody has figured out the spacing

and the corner threes and all of these different things. I think we're going to see more of this stuff, not less of it. I think like, I actually think Luka is the future of this stuff, not James Harden. How they use Luka,

the team they put around him, what their offense is, it's the smart version of what Houston's Houston's with Harden is just like just hog the ball, dude. We'll space the floor. Do your thing. Dallas is like, how can you hog the ball and then also use everybody that's on your team? How do we

take advantage of the fact that you're a really good defensive rebounder, which makes no sense. He had 18 rebounds last night. And they don't have totally the right players yet, but they figured out a lot like Lamar Jackson and the Ravens how to maximize this guy's talents with the right kind of roster around him. I don't know if Houston has ever totally figured that out with Harden.

Well, the crazy thing about Doncic, and I remember saying this when I was doing my draft prep for it, I was on a TV show and I got laughed off the set when I said Doncic reminds me of Harden. Yeah, and then it's, you know, three ex-players looking at you like you took a hit a crack before you went out and get up. And, you know, they're like, you know, but I'm looking at them being like, I know not one of you guys watched a second of this dude. So, you know, and it wasn't it was the way he read kind of the high screen. It was the way he had a little bit of a step back. And, you know, some of Luca's

shooting numbers I had worried about a little bit, he's just he's kind of like seeing everything but still look i never thought he was going to be this and that's one of the things that i look at with with houston is is the other version of them a center that can shoot threes because as good as capella has been you know capella's all cleanup capella's off everything like i think the reason why we're seeing a little resurgence from dwight here a quarter way into the season is watching that Denver game last night. Him playing with LeBron is incredible. LeBron's finding

him on every one of those roles. Anytime the help comes up, he's like, all right, whatever. I'm LeBron. I already figured out what we were going to do before you even knew what you were going to do. I don't trust Harden. I certainly don't trust Westbrook in the playoffs. I expect they're going to win a ton of games.

Westbrook's going to kill them in the playoffs. Because the problem is he can't shoot. And his shooting has somehow gotten way worse. Not even just worse, like dramatically worse, where when he shoots now, not only does he miss the shot, but it'll hit the backboard and shit like that will happen. And when they get to the playoffs, teams are just going to force him to shoot.

They're going to double harden, and they're going to beg Russell Westbrook to be the guy who decides games for Houston, and he's going to fail. He's shooting now. I mean, this is... His shooting's... They're wide open shots.

Right. So he maximized... I mean, it's actually amazing he even did this in 16-17, but he took seven threes a game, hit 34%, then 30% on four threes a game, then back to six threes a game, 29% last year. He's at five threes a game, and he's shooting 23%. And most of those threes are open. That's the thing. It was like the Ray Allen thing when he first got to Boston in 08.

Right. And we thought, oh my gosh, Ray Allen is going to be unbelievable. And it's like, you know what? Ray has never been a stand over there and shoot guy. So it's harder for some shooters to not have the ball in their hand. And so as bad as Russ's numbers were, this is even weirder for him where he's like, I'm supposed to shoot and I'd have to go track it and see like, you know, maybe I could be, be a little misleading here. So I should double-check it. But a guy that's used to having the ball in his hands all the time

is still a better shooter when he's in control of it as opposed to having to play off of somebody else. And they stagger those guys and all that stuff. But closing with those two guys, good luck. You know, Ryan, we both play basketball. Play tomorrow night. Really hard for anybody who's used to having the ball a lot to suddenly not have the ball a lot.

Tell me about it. I think situations matter so much more than we give it credit for. Your situation, especially in the NBA, like I look at that Miami team. I enjoy watching Miami. It's this weird quirky team where night to night Kendrick Nunn might go two for 17.

But- It feels more off now. But Duncan Robinson might go eight for 11. Or Kelly Olenek might hit five threes. Are you looking at the box score from last night? Your number two? How about your number two seed Heat Miami now? No, it's just, I think they've calibrated that team.

So they know two guys are probably going to suck. And they know two other guys are probably going to be really good. And it's just night to night. It doesn't really seem to matter to them. As long as Butler and Winslow are good, they know they're going to get two other guys who are going to do something. Because they have this weird quirky team of heat check guys and guys who are just up and down.

I don't know how that's going to translate in the playoffs, but I think they're going to be a really hard team to play in the playoffs because you're going to be like, oh yeah, we got Miami. We're up 2-1. And then you go Miami game four and Kelly Olenek has 30 points, you know?

Or Tyler Harrow hits eight threes. And you're like, fuck, how did we lose that game? I think they're going to be hard to play in a playoff series. And Butler... You haven't even mentioned Bam yet. Bam is everything to that team. Bam is... Defensive player of the year candidate.

Look, Kevin O'Connor deserves all sorts. I hate the player comp stuff, okay? I'm not... I don't know if it's because I'm not good at it or I just see too many differences in players to like, whenever you explain, I'm like, oh, this guy's just like Stromal Swift you're like what does that mean um you know think about that it's true tough run all right tough one for all of us so when I watch Bam and O'Connor was like

you know it's a little Draymond-ish and you're like it is on offense the way they already trust him and I was I was actually DMing with O'Connor last night I go can you imagine how many coaches would never trust Bam to be like, hey, off the screen, you're the role man. You catch at the elbow. You catch at the free throw line. And now you're going to make the read on the help. And it's exactly what they did with Draymond all the time at Golden State.

And the fact that Bam, and look, it's a couple games for Siakam where he went up against some length, the Isaac game with Orlando. Siakam was awful. Also, he took one shot combined fourth quarter overtime. That was the point I was going to make. He wasn't guarding Siakam, but he took Siakam out of the game, which reminded me of Draymond. Where Draymond can take guys

out of the game and he's not even guarding them. He was guarding them though. No, but sometimes he would come over for the help and stuff like that. Siakam was aware of where he was, whether he was on him or not. I don't know. It felt Draymond-y to me. But then if it doesn't work,

because, you know, as Toronto got back into that game last night, by the way, Lowry back 0 for 11. So I don't know if that meant... Tough one. Like, I wonder how much... He's got to play himself back into shape like Jokic.

He had a stretch where I was like, it's good to see you back, Lowry. He complained four straight possessions about a call he didn't get. Well, what's interesting is Van Vliet's just been a revelation continuing back to round three last year where I actually like their offense when they run it through him.

The running stuff through him and Siakam, it makes more sense to Larry. The Van Vliet part of this is like another part I got wrong. And like, I still like, like OG Ananobi is my Jimmy V award. Like, I'm never going to give up on him. Right. Right. So when we do NBA support group.

Yeah. Just as Winslow could also be a finalist for the. Van Vliet is like if Brad Wanamaker all of a sudden started averaging 19 points a game. It really makes no sense at all. That would be weird. Yeah. Yeah. It would be weird if Fred Van Vliet's averaging 19 points a game, which he is.

Or he's your go-to guy in the NBA finals in certain spots. He's just slicing and dicing dudes in these fourth quarters. The Butler thing, though, like Butler, the reason Toronto back in is Butler went iso-heavy and then was like stalling possessions. He had a horrible last possession of regulation. Eight seconds to go

and I'm like, what are you doing? Okay, so he didn't go. He went late. We see that stuff all the time. Then he scores the first eight points of overtime and then that's the game. And he actually, I think, outscored Toronto. If I want to go ahead and double-check We see that stuff all the time. Then he scores the first eight points of overtime, and then that's the game. And he actually, I think, outscored Toronto. If I want to go ahead and double-check it, it doesn't really matter. None has been slipping a little bit here lately. But they can do Duncan Robinson, Olenek, as you mentioned.

Myers Leonard can beat up with some other guys. They go small with Bam, who's already one of the most versatile big men in the league. And they did it all without Dragic. So I think that he can throw all these different combinations at you where i look at them and go okay the downside would be butler doesn't have the number two guy in a playoff series against the other two teams best players and that's why i always get back to the sixers when i watch the number two guy for them is the quirky it's the fact that can that happen i feel like that is a number two guy is that night tonight you don't know. I think to me, none is the guy that they need to address

because I'm going way back here. It's a little Flip Murray potential with him. Oh. Yeah. Flip gets mine, Murray. Remember Flip Murray, that one Seattle year? Yeah, of course.

In fantasy leagues where it's like, holy fuck, this guy's going to win me my fantasy league. And he was just really good for six weeks and then it kind of tailed off. And I think the league has kind of figured out none in a couple of different ways because he was really bad last night.

And it wasn't just that he was really bad. I thought the Raptors just kind of knew what he was going to do. I don't think he's going to be the long-term answer. But he's also one of those dudes, too, that's like, okay, I haven't made any buckets. I'm going for this here a little bit. He's a shoot for his point guard.

Yeah. So they, without Dragic in that game, though, like Butler ran it, and then Winslow had this incredible stretch where you're like, ah, that's the Justice Winslow I fell in love with, where they let those guys run the point and everything. He's an NBA support group positive story to me. Winslow? Yeah, I think he made it.

I think he's like Bubbles in the beginning of Season 5 of The Wire. He kind of got through and he made it to the other side. Should have Bubbles on. I've hung out with Bubbles twice. My hottest Wire take is a little too much Bubbles. Would have scaled it back 15%.

He's like, I get it. He's got a drug problem. He was, he, we talk about this. Yeah. Your boy,

uh, Jonathan Abrams, right? Yeah. Who wrote the book, the oral history of the wire and like bubbles was like, dude, I can't even go to David Simon and be like,

this, this role is bumming me out. Like which part, the missing tooth CGI like, dude, I can't. He would go to David Simon and be like, this role is bumming me out. Like, which part? The missing tooth? CGI? Hey, Kendrick Nunn, last six games. No, they're bad. I was looking at it last night.

11 points a game. 34% shooting. One free throw game. The free throws are what worried me with him. Because you got to shoot first point guard who also doesn't get to the line. It's tough. I don't know if that's,

I think it was a nice story, but ultimately they're going to have to address the point guard situation. It's going to be really interesting to me because Chris Paul has nowhere to go basically. Miami is the one kind of cross your fingers destination, but it would fucking kill their 2021 cap space

because the Giannis stuff is already starting with them. Do you want to expand on that? What do you mean? Giannis, Heat? Well, that's already starting. Do they have billboards made already? No, but the stuff's getting floated out already. And as always with this stuff,

you just got to take it with an entire salt shaker, but it's clear they're going to have cap space in 2021. We know who the guys are. Right, but the only time that heat cap space ever worked was when LeBron liked Dwayne Wade. Yeah. So, I mean, all the other years it's like... But it did work. No, it did. They have to be taken seriously.

But remember Durant, LeBron coming back. Yeah. Like if you had to sit there and invest in a position of them being successful with their cap space every time, although, you know, what's success? Missing out four times

and winning titles and going to four straight finals obviously was success. But there's been a lot of Miami cap space stories written over the years and it only worked one time and had nothing to do

with Pat Riley. It had everything to do with Dwayne Wade already being there. I have one important question for you before I go. No, I got to finish this though. What do you got to finish?

Just because as much as we both seem to like Miami right now, and I think we both still like Toronto because we're just like, this is incredible. My hottest take is I like the top six East teams more than the top six West teams. I really do. Open a window. Yeah.

This is unbelievable. Oh my God. Priscilla's passed out. I'm glad I didn't bring a jacket today. I think the two LA teams have a higher ceiling than any team in the East, but I think the top six in the East are better than the top six in the West. It's my hot take. What if?

Because when Indiana gets Oladipo back, the East goes six deep, period. Okay. As I watch all those teams in the East, and then I watch Philadelphia I go how can I pick any of these teams against Philadelphia's talent we're still on the same page there that talent wise

talent wise it's absurd defensively they can them and the Clippers can take out the other team's offense period in the last three minutes do you want the five worst teams in the NBA offensive efficiency in the fourth quarter? Sure.

Because this is something I've been tracking since day one. Let me guess, Philly's in there. Denver at 26. Jokic, what workout program did he do this offseason that I don't want to order on DVD? I tweeted about it this morning. I'd been holding off, but he just looks fat and slow.

That's it. He looks fat and slow. He stepped in front of the inbounder after a make, in front of the guard who's going to get the inbound, and in the middle of the play, he was like, it was a weird, you're the best player on the team. What are you doing? He didn't look this slow last year.

No, and the way they went in Anthony Davis last year at the rim, or last night, was terrible. Okay, all right. So Denver 26. The Knicks, your New York Knicks, 27. The Charlotte Hornets, who have more wins. I thought they maybe have 10 wins all season. It's a frisky crunch time team.

Very. Devontae Graham. Devontae Graham is like the MVP of league pass for shitty teams. 29, the Brooklyn Nets. Yeah. The Sixers are 30th in offensive efficiency in the fourth quarter. And that's the team that I want to pick over everybody else.

But like, I've watched too many of the games. I'm like, what are you guys doing? I know you're going to run. No, that Indiana game on Saturday night, it was like watching a football game. It was like watching the 92 Eagles or the 2000 Ravens where you're like, they got to get back on defense. That's the only way they're going to score.

Like they should just throw the ball back to Indiana so then they can get a fast break on defense. Don't even try it. Just take a 28 footer so you can go back because you have a better chance to score that way. Here's my question for you. I'm an NBA GM. You're running the nets. Yes. I call you and say,

Hey, can we talk about Kyrie? What would it take? Do you say, I got to call you back? Do you say no way we're not trading them? Or do you start texting the other people that work for you and go, we might have a bite? You're always going to, I still think you're going to be able to trade Kyrie, but I don't think you can.

I don't think you can do that. I don't think you can do that to Durant where you're like, hey, the whole reason why you came here, we traded him. Player empowerment era. Maybe now we're shifting into the team empowerment era. That would be great. Hey man, sorry, traded him. Player empowerment era. Maybe now we're shifting into the team empowerment era. That would be great. Hey man, sorry, under contract.

You're gone. Fake super teams. Didn't Orlando try that with Big Baby Davis and Dwight Howard? Like we have Glenn Davis now, Dwight. Yeah. It'll be great.

Yeah. You guys will bang the boards. They're better with Spencer Dinwiddie. The team, they look like the Nets again. And it's like undeniable. When you watched Dinwiddie. I watched two Celtic games against them Wednesday and Friday. And it's like, they're really hard to stop.

The team runs better. Everybody is being used now. Jared Allen, Joe Harris, all this stuff. And they just play better. And Kyrie's going to come back and he's going to take 30 shots a game. And they're going to play worse. It's going to happen. I got to go ahead and let you go on this one just I don't want to mess your day up but um like Dinwiddie who I love I know you love him but I'm also fair I'm I'm stern

but I'm fair Bill and he seems every possession where he's it it's like a, I'm pissed Kyrie is here possession. Yeah. And he had a really bad close to a game last week where, you know, he just wasn't interested in getting anybody else going. And like, I worry about him a little bit in that the stuff I loved about him is that he could kind of get to where he wanted to get to. Yeah. But I wonder, you know, there's, there's a really, like we've talked about this whole

time, there's a very delicate line of like production and usage where it's awesome. And then you can cross into this isn't actually awesome to play with. And it may not lead to the wins that you think you're going to get just because the numbers are so absurd. That's when Kyrie comes back. That's one of the most fun stories in the league.

Because Dinwiddie is clearly, and I could see in both of those South Dakota games, this is my team now. Yeah, right. I think that's what it's like when he comes in off the bench. These are my guys. I was here when we had the glorious 42-40 season that is now being romanticized like they were the 77 Blazers.

And then Kyrie, I don't know. Can't wait to see it. Russell, this was a blast as always. All right, man. Spencer did what he fourth in usage rate for bench players. Actually, no, he's no, no. Wait a minute.

What am I talking about? I'm second. I got two non qualifiers in there. So he's behind only Derek Rose in usage rate for bench players. I knew I was onto something. Derek Rose. See that layup the other night? Derek Rose looks borderline unstoppable. Are the Pistons back? We'll do that next time. They might I was onto something. Derek Rose. See that layup the other night.

Derek Rose looks borderline unstoppable. Are the Pistons back? We'll do that next time. They might be a little back. Coming up next. Hey, Bill Simmons has a podcast. It's the Bill Simmons podcast.

Check it out on ringer. Before we get to Bruce Feldman and all the college football stuff that I want to get to want to tell you about drink works because our podcast is brought to you by drink works home bar by Keurig, much like a premium espresso machine, but it makes cocktails instead. That sounds way more fun. There are over two dozen different drinks to choose from.

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With more states available for presale today. So that means if you don't live in one of the six best states in the country, and I'm kidding. Am I, though? PA? Drinkworks.com. Go there and make it work. And now it's time for the State Farm Safe Bet of the Week. The Kansas City Chiefs going into New England, you can count on.

That sentence sounds dangerous out loud. It doesn't feel very safe, and that's what State Farm is asking for here. They're asking for a safe bet. They don't want to be involved with anything dangerous. And it feels a little dangerous, but I'm feeling dangerous right now. All right, let's go over some facts. Everybody's off the Patri feels a little dangerous, but I'm feeling dangerous right now. All right, let's go over some facts. Everybody's off the Patriots. That's not why I'm doing this right now.

I'm telling you right now, if I could have a spectacular down-the-field threat offense versus a great defense, I think in today's NFL, I'd rather be able to hit on big plays, the threat of big plays. And Mahomes, who, if you go through this right now, and I went through all of his games, his game logs, QB rating's not necessarily the best thing, but his back-to-back ratings in the last two games haven't been that great. They lost against Tennessee on that field goal issue, but they've won two games since against the Chargers and Oakland. They were dominant against the Raiders, but if you look at his numbers overall, not very impressive. Under 200 yards in both games, under 60% completion

percentage. He's had five games this year where he's actually been under 60%. So what's going on with Mahomes? He only did that three times in games that I even count from all of last season when he was the MVP. So he's actually had some statistical stuff that you could dig in. And if you actually watch against the Oakland game, you go, you know what? I don't see it being that crisp. So why am I picking him against this awesome New England secondary? I think Houston did some things, not necessarily just against one guy in the secondary for New England, but did a really good job in getting some of the linebackers into coverage. I think Kansas City will do that, looking at their tape.

Obviously, having a guy like Andy Reid being able to do that. And on the other side, as much as I'm, look, still respectful of New England's defense, and I have to be, you have to look at the fact that New England had real issues getting any separation with the receivers, but that was covered up last year at times in their passing game with this ground attack that they started using more and more successfully at the end of the last year and into the playoffs, and that has not shown up whatsoever. Some of the Sonny Michel numbers are really scary when you look at his elusiveness rating and missed tackles

or yards after contact. They're all pretty bad. So if New England were to beat a team like Kansas City, who I know you're thinking, hey, Ryan, their defense isn't that good. Well, guess what? They're bad against the run, one of the three worst teams in the league, but the Patriots don't run the football. And that's the whole point. So that's why I'm going with Kansas City Chiefs as my State Farm Safe Bet of the Week. If you're fumbling with insurance, State Farm agents are here to help because with over 19,000 agents that are local to you and available to help, whether you connect in person, by phone, or through the State Farm mobile app,

agents are here to help. So go with the one that has coverage and agents that you can count on. State Farm. Talk to an agent today. Okay, let's talk some college football. We used to do that. Remember we would go, the Bruce? I haven't done that in a while. That's what we used to do, and maybe you don't enjoy it. Bruce Feldman from Fox and the Athletic. Was that not funny to you? I guess not. I apologize.

It's always funny, Ron. I'm just laughing on the inside. Yeah, that's right. I think that's why we stopped doing it is because you didn't like it. That's a Braveheart reference, and apparently Bruce is a gladiator guy. So let's keep it moving. Okay. What happened? What happened with Clay Helton here in USC? Because, you know, there's a tweet, he was gone. And then it was a real cleanup there. And you've had the latest and you're honestly my guy to go to on the coaching stuff. And it looks like he's staying at USC. the coaching stuff and looks like he's staying at USC. So really this started getting some momentum early last week. And so you have a new president, Carol Foltz and a new AD, even newer than her, Mike Bone. And I think they were very comfortable with Clay Helton, what he had done. I think they looked at what he had done this year and saw that he may feel like, and a lot of

people around USC feel like he's grown as a head coach. I think there's a couple other things that factor into this. The deal that Lynn Swan, the old AD, did for Clay Heltman and his staff, from what I'm told, it's even more money that they were on the hook for than had been reported. I remember USC is a private school, so some of those figures don't normally get out. So you factor that in. I also think you factor in the school that is coming out of all sorts of scandals at the university level. So the new administration is going to be very cautious in the kind of person they want to

bring in as the face of the football program. And I think on top of that, they're sitting there going, do we have a surefire guy who we would think could do better than what we have in Clay Helton? And I'm not sure they're convinced of that because I think the last thing anybody wants to do is be in a position where they're going to have another buyout situation three or four years from now because they've whiffed on some big hires before. So I think when you come, you know, put all that together, it was trending in this direction. And then, you know, as we reported last night, the people internally, you know, around Clay Helton had felt like, okay, we're getting signs that we're getting retained. And on top of that, as we're talking about this on Wednesday,

a lot of stuff, they had to dot some I's and cross some T's, but everything has been pointing in that direction unless there's going to be significant blowback to the idea. And even if there is, I feel like the understanding was they're not going to have change just for change's sake. Okay. How big is the buyout then? It's massive?

It's bigger than people think it is? Yeah. Yeah. My understanding is it's significantly bigger than $20 million. Okay. And that's already big. Right. Okay.

So, especially when we're not talking like SEC Big Ten money on the TV deal, right? I mean, that's always one of the things. Like, it's a get-out-of-j of jail free card for some of these other conferences. Yeah. And I think from talking to people inside the business, I think what's been conveyed to me is people don't realize, people in the media like us, and certainly a lot of fans don't realize, they just think there's some rich person's going to be on the hook and write a check and get everybody out of that. It's not always that simple. And to get somebody to bring that money back, it's just, it's a lot more involved than that. And so, you know, right now I think USC

looked at the landscape and, you know, there's some things when you talk to some, some folks, you know, inside USC, they'll say, you know, they hate the criticism where somebody go, oh, Clay Helton's record is, you know, this when he doesn't have Sam Darnold, but that's not really right because he was the one who recruited Sam Darnold and he was the one who developed Sam Darnold, you know? So it's almost like saying, oh, this guy ran for 150 yards, but he had 80 up among one carry. So they try to dismiss it. And I think there's a lot of people there who are very supportive of what, you know, what they think like he's doing. But I think you're, you know, in order to do that, you probably will see more changes

that he's going to have to make to continue to grow that program. Okay. So before we move on from the USC thing, then you, you brought up something and this is always the thing that like Scott and I would do on the radio show all the time is like, you know, programs look in the mirror. USC is certainly one of those that looks in the mirror and sees a 10 and thinks, okay, well, you know, why doesn't urban Meyer want the job? I mean, give me your urban thought. And then ultimately, like how many actual home run names even exist as possibilities for USC? Because I don't think Jeff Fisher gets anybody excited.

No, that's a, that's a ground ball to hit that, that bangs into the third base coach. That's not a home run hire. I mean, I think that urban Meyer on a couple of levels is, is worth talking about here. One, I think, and look, full disclosure, I work at Fox, but I'm on those calls with him every Monday. Urban Meyer seems like he's really fired up about doing TV and the direction it's going. I'm not saying Urban Meyer is never going to coach again, but he had significant health issues. I did a couple of those games last year where he's on one knee and agonizing pain because of the brain cyst he deals with and the stress of being a college football coach and his world of being it always fourth and inches, 24-7-365. That's a rough way to go. On the flip side of it, given the issues that USC has dealt with,

from what my understanding is, I'm not sure how receptive Errol Folt, the president, was going to be to have an Urban Meyer as the face of the football program anyway. So I think it might have been a non-starter. Going past that, it's USC. And while there's a handful of coaches, whether you want to say Lincoln Riley or Ryan Day, who are heading at the top of their game or some other guys, I'm not sure that many guys are going to jump into it and say, hey, I'm going to leave what I got to go to USC because it just takes a little bit of a different kind of personality to want to be in the middle of Los Angeles. So, you know, I had thought James Franklin was one of those guys who I thought would fit

there as a guy who, you know, did a great job at Vanderbilt at a really tough place. He revitalized Penn State and recruits well, but I'm not sure that the USC power brokers necessarily see it that way. But after him, I'd say maybe Matt Rule, that he's done a terrific job at Baylor. Every time he's in front of a podium, he always comes away very impressive and seems to say the right thing.

But I can't tell you beyond those guys that I'd say, okay, that's a definite, you're going to hire him. And he's going to have, he's going to elevate the program because we've seen a lot of examples of guys you would have thought would have done great who aren't always doing that great, you know? And it's just, it's not, it's not just a plug and play situation, I think. And there's bigger factors when you're dealing with a program and a university that's coming out of all sorts of scandals, as USC has been right now.

Okay, James Franklin, what's a better job, Penn State or Florida State today? I think Penn State is at this point because he's already done a lot of the heavy lifting. I think Penn State, yeah, there's more recruiting base in Florida State. But Florida State, on one hand, is the positive because there's only Clemson in that conference. The negative is you have real instability in the leadership. Your AD may not be your AD for much longer and your president may not be your AD for much longer, and your president may not be your president much longer. So if you jump into that job, which I don't think he would, you're taking a lot of uncertainty, whereas at Penn State, he knows some of what he's dealing with. So in that regard, I think Penn State is a more stable environment, and he's already, yeah, there's

some challenges with it that are unique to the place, but I just think in terms of the environment he's working in is a little more of a known thing, and I think that's probably better for where he's at right now. You think he's staying, though? I don't think he's going to Florida State. You don't think he's going to Florida State? No, I don't think he's going to Florida State. I think if he were to go anywhere, if it wasn't USC down the road,

I think it would probably be to the NFL. Yeah, all right. That makes sense. Okay, so... I mean, if I was guessing, I'd say right now the guy who I would think probably ends up at Florida State would be Mike Norvell from Memphis.

I mean, just as a hunch. I think he's somebody who has been high on their list early on. He's done really well. He has a game this weekend, but I think he's a real candidate there. Norvell is a good example of, look, solid, lesser program. They've competed in games against Power 5 teams. I don't ever look at the Norvell thing and go, oh, but that would be one of those things with Florida State. I'm like, oh, this is kind of a letdown where it felt like Willie

Taggart, you get him out of Oregon that quickly that it all made sense and he wanted to go back to Florida. But the more I read about the Florida thing, and I'm not just doing this because the AD has admitted himself that he doesn't have a sports background. And I read the really good piece about, was Nicole, was it Nicole that did the piece on the search

firms for the athletic? Chris Vanini. Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to discredit anybody there, but it was really good because it also gave you sense, but part of the problem with the article, though, is when you're interviewing search firms about the importance of

search firms, they're not going to tell you that they're not important. And Florida State also has the facility issue where they stopped doing the upgrade to the facility, and that tagger check was huge. So I don't know that they could even could they go as big game hunting as Florida State fans expect because it is a lot like USC like any one of those programs that feels like one of the 10 to maybe five destination programs of a 2030 year stretch. programs of a 20, 30 year stretch. Like, I don't know if that's even good enough for them, at least to win the press conference. Not saying that Mike isn't a great coach, but you just know how these people are and how the boosters are and they're all predictable and they all want the shiny thing. And a lot of times when they get what they want, it doesn't even work out.

Right. It's come, Hey, we're going to get Bob Stoops. Bob Stoops won a national title. He's, he has a big, he has, he has a lot of cachet. Well, Bob Stoops left a job where he worked for the best AD in college sports, and now he's out. Florida State has so much uncertainty. That's a head scratcher that people would think Bob Stoops would want to jump in the middle of that. But I think what you have is a lot of people who see it on one side of things, at the top is what it was and what they think it what it could be like in the case of Mike Norvell his buyout's like five hundred thousand dollars like that

makes a lot of sense for a program that has you know has got some financial challenges at this point yeah it was Minnesota's the all-time favorite one ever it was before PJ Fleck I forget might have been before Jerry Kill but whatever the the rumor, the offseason rumor list of coaches that were potentially. I mean, it was everybody south of Belichick for the Minnesota Gophers. And it was the most comical rumor page I've ever seen. And I don't expect you to remember that. That would be one of those things that I would get excited about. Okay, you had the story.

Chris Peterson leaves Washington. Everybody expects, well, wait a minute. Why would that happen? What's going on there? This doesn't seem to be as much of a mystery as he just didn't want to coach anymore. Yeah. I mean, this is something just from knowing Jimmy Lake, the guy who's taken over, it's not a shock because Jimmy Lake had kind of been the unofficial or de facto coach in waiting. He turned down the Colorado job last year. He's turned down some big coordinator jobs for a lot more money and he loves it there. They really like him. And Chris Peterson,

anybody who spent much time with him does not see him as a guy who's going to be coaching when he's 70. I mean, in a lot of ways, I feel like it, for people who watch the Chris Peterson, Jimmy Lake press conference on Tuesday, I think there's a lot of football coaches who stand up and look in the mirror and they think they see what Chris Peterson is. And he's, he's a deep thinker. And he's about like, people were like, Oh, he's, he'd be great at TV. It was like, he doesn't want to do TV. He didn't want to like, you know,

all those things were just not an interest in him. And I don't see him going to be an NFL coach because he loves the development part of this. And it's not that you can't develop NFL players, but I think he likes, he likes, you know, kind of where people are at at a certain stage of their life. But what you got from him, I think as a guy who, you know, he burned out at Boise State. He burned out and Washington was a good change for him. And he did a great job and he obviously elevated it compared to what it was under Steve Sarkeesian.

It wasn't was before. I mean, he turned it into a top 20 program and I don't know what he's going to do. I don't think he knows where he's going to be two years from now. I mean, maybe he'll, he'll get re-energized and get different ideas. He wants to do it,

but he's not urban Meyer where it's like he's consumed with winning football games and getting an edge on other people. I think he has some bigger interests. He's extremely well-read, and I just think he has a real kind of curiosity. And so I'm interested to see where this leads him. But for people who know what it's like around Washington, I don't think they were shocked by this. I just think they were surprised that it didn't happen maybe a year or two from now, that it happened now.

But credit for him to recognize it and making it happen. Shiano goes to Rutgers. I don't understand how anybody is making fun of this. And I'm not even telling you I'm the biggest Shiano fan. He was one of the toughest guys. And I don't mean it like he was a bad guy or anything like that. But when he came to do the analyst work stuff at ESPN, he didn't have any interest in wanting to do it. He was already he would do these hits where you come by and be like, dude, you're not coaching right now. Like you can you can talk about some of the stuff. But a lot of guys, as you know, when they know they want to get right back into the coaching, they do the media thing to keep themselves busy, maybe some side money, but they're not really going to break anything down because they know they're going to go right back to it. And it's Rutgers, you know, despite the value of Rutgers footprint of New York city for the big 10 brand, which I'm saying with complete sarcasm, you know, why not? Like, I think, I think it's weird that Shiano and I'd heard stuff from out of Ohio state last year,

but like, yeah, whatever he's trying to do, like it's not working. The kids aren't listening to him. Like there's some issues there. He goes to new England for two months, then doesn't start the season with him.

I don't really know what that was about. And whenever a coach says like, I want to spend more time with my family. Does that mean that when you decide to get back into coaching, you got sick of your family? Cause we don't really ever hear that in a press conference. but like ultimately like everybody can, I can make jokes. Everybody can do all these things and ask all these different questions.

It's Rutgers. It's the worst power five school going. And if Shiana wants to go back there and go back home and come close, I don't even know that's, that's not possible, but you know, give you any level of respectability. What's the problem? Even though it was weird that he turned it down at first, but if he did it for more money, then good for him. Yeah, I think for the people who are mocking it,

they have no concept of what Rutgers was before Greg Sciano was there. I mean, I think a lot of the people who probably mock it are the ones who are like the Tennessee fans, who are like, you know, just thought he was the worst thing in the world. And they don't realize that, you know, towards the end of his run there, I mean, he really made Rutgers a nationally relevant program. At least they were really relevant in the Northeast. And I think where Chris Ash, the guy you followed really struggled is he had no connections in New Jersey. And that is a state which produces a lot of NFL talent.

And you're not going to keep a lot of it at home. The best players are going to end up getting plucked to go someplace else. But if you can keep some of it, at least have a chance. Because right now, Rutgers has been abysmal. And so he gives them a presence. He will give some alignment or have some alignment with the state high school coaches, which is bigger in that state than it is almost any place else, because so many of these kids have just bailed. And the steam or the image of Rutgers football

in the state of New Jersey with a lot of these people is a punchline. And so I think Greg Sciano will help remedy that to some extent. And my understanding, Ryan, is he really didn't get, you know, there was about a week lag in between the talks broke off and then they circled back. And obviously there was a huge amount of support from fans and former players. I don't, my understanding was similar deal, $32 million, eight years, $25.2 million, I think guaranteed money. I think there were some, some, some, uh, resource things in terms of facilities that he really felt like they needed if they were seriously going to compete in the big 10. And I don't

think these are out of line. Uh, if you're going to try to compete in the big 10 to at least have similar resources in, in what you're doing. So I'm totally with you. I think it's, you know, look, it's a lot of this stuff we're seeing is on Twitter and people on Twitter like to mock everything. And so here's Greg Shiano, but you know what? Not like he ain't Derek Dooley. I mean, he actually was a successful coach there. So some of the Tennessee fans can mock him all they want. But he did a really nice job there when he was there the first time. And I know it's a harder job now because they're in the Big Ten

and they're not in the Big East. But who else are you going to get to go in there? I mean, I think he's about as well as they could have hoped to do. Yeah, exactly. That's the point. You're right, though. You just said it a couple sentences ago. Look, it's Shiano.

People are going to make fun of it and all these different things. Did you know Ryan Day was going to be this good? I know they're talented, but this feels different than just, hey, I'm the one year after Urban Meyer thing, especially with their defense, too. No, I thought he would be good. Look, you and I both know Chip Kelly pretty well

and Chip is a mentor to Ryan. And I think we both think pretty highly of him. Here's where I think the situation was really ripe, which is last year, first of all, you have the dynamic with Urban, which is it's always fourth and inches around him constantly on Tuesday, on Thursday, on Saturday morning, all the time.

And that wears on people. I think what also wore on them was he had last year, he had that Zach Smith scandal with the disgraced receivers coach and everything that was going on with that. That's hovering over the program. Urban gets suspended three games for it. Then you have the issues with Urban's health that were constant, it seemed like, and whether he was going to come back or not.

I mean, you had a really talented team that almost lost to Maryland, that almost lost to Indiana, that almost lost to Nebraska. You know, they seldom seemed like they were at their best until they played Michigan and then in the bowl game. So there was a lot of that. And certainly they, you know, they got bumped by Purdue and everything. Well, Ryan Day comes in and I just feel like you had a team that's playing free and, and fast. And I think he's made some smart moves. Ryan Day kept the best parts of Urban Meyer's regime, which were Mickey Mirati, who was the strength and conditioning,

the real development guy, kind of the heartbeat of the program. He kept the recruiting machine in place. He kept Larry Johnson on the D-line. Brian Hartline's a good receivers coach. I think he made some really smart moves. And then he added in Jeff Hathaway, who's been a great addition running the defense. And so I think with his temperament, we did one of their games.

I mean, they feed off the energy of Chase Young. They have some real dynamic leaders. And that's why they are playing at a high level where it seems like every week out, you're getting their A game, which I didn't feel like you were getting that last year. Yeah, it's absolutely true because defensively, I mean, when Purdue beat them last year, that wasn't a mistake. Like Purdue ran over an Ohio State front. And it was just, it was like at will.

And you're like, how the hell, how does that, you know, again, like Purdue was better and at least perception-wise better last year. All right, so a couple more things. Is there any other coaching stuff newsworthy that I should ask you about that I'm not thinking about that that's worth mentioning? No, I think we talked, we covered Florida state. You got, you got the Ole Miss job. We'll see what happens. I know Mike Norvell is somebody he's up the road in Memphis. Ole Miss really likes him. My guess is, you know, he probably picks prefer Florida state if he can get it over that one.

He'd probably prefer Florida State if he can get it over that one. So we'll see what direction Ole Miss and Missouri go. Could Lane Kiffin end up back in the SEC at Arkansas? I think that's a possibility. So there's those, I don't want to call them second-tier jobs. They're obviously not Florida State. They weren't USC. Yeah, we get what you're saying.

Right, and there's also, look, there's also something to be like, I'd rather not be in the SEC West.'m if i'm available to a few different programs and the money's about right i would probably pick the sec west last like you know i don't feel like doing that for all this you know i heard the bama thing is over i heard that segment in 2013 um you know bama is outdated auburn is technology auburn is is this Auburn's and all these different things um I'll wait until as I tweeted out like for Saban to lose to a below average team more than zero times in a decade before I'm ready to start thinking that things are turning there and they had a ridiculously young defense with all their defensive um injuries to that linebacking all that stuff I just look if I'm Mike Norvell and it's like Ole Miss Florida State there's no

comparison but I'm not exactly telling my agent that, Hey, I definitely want to be in a second tier sec West program. Cause that just seems like, all right, just make sure you rent and have a plan in three years when you get fired. Yeah. You're basically in the deep end of the pool then. I mean, that's what it is. And I mean, I'm, as we're doing this, I'm at LSU, but I got a, you know, like the state of the art facility they just moved into. The hot school with the new offense that everybody's buzzing about with Joe Brady and Joe Burrow.

And they're going to be recruiting well off that. I just think there's a lot of pieces in place. But, you know, here's when I know it'll be over. You know, Alabama is going to start to fall apart. When Nick Saban leaves, then I'll believe that Nick Saban is not going to be winning championships and everything else. I mean, as long as he's there, there's still going to be a problem for people. You know, the staff may change and it's probably going to change again. They still have players.

They may not have that many more than everybody else anymore, but they're still going to be a big problem. It's not going to all of a sudden turn into, he's going to turn into the Larry Coker era in Tuscaloosa. While you're down in Baton Rouge, you know Coach O, I think, as well as anybody. Your great book, Meat Market, which I would recommend to anybody who's a college football fan or just a fan of kind of how all the recruiting stuff works. Do you think Coach O is getting sick of every article that starts with the premise of,

isn't it weird how stupid everyone thinks you are? I don't know how many I've read. And there was a really good one on The Athletic. And I love that Coach Moffitt, my guy down there, the strength coach, who didn't talk to his friend anymore after he suggested that Coach O could be fired after a few weeks. But give me your best, you know Coach O better than anybody. Can you do like some good storytelling here? The Coach O thing, why it works, why this guy's awesome. And knowing that you've,

I would imagine he's going to be one of the guys you're the closest with in college football, correct? Yeah, we still talk a lot. And I think one of the things that I give him a ton of credit for, this is an incredibly stubborn business. I mean, the most stubborn guy I know is Mike Leach and he never changes anything. Right. And he's had success with it. And most of these guys are stubborn as can be. You would think, I think people kind of profile a lot, you know, it's like, it's easy to do it. And so they look and say, okay, here's this big gruff defensive line guy. He talks differently. You know, it's from part of the, part of the, the state, part of the country, or sometimes it doesn't get much respect.

People look at it, you know, almost look down their nose at it. And I think there's even people in the sec who kind of look down their nose, nose at him. And, you know, the joke's kind of on them at this point, because that guy is way different. And I've said this for years. I started, you know, really realized that when he got back to USC, he's way different than the guy that I spent two years around working on meat market. And rarely do coaches get as open to change and go against maybe their instincts or how they came up and different things.

And he does. And he's about as different from that guy as anybody. And he's probably one of the more innovative. And I know, you know, some of the guys, you know, here, Tommy Moffitt, Jack Marucci, these are guys who are not position coaches, but they're, you know some of the guys you know here tommy moffitt jack marucci these are guys who are not position coaches but they're you know strength coaches trainers these are people who are critical and in the development part and they will talk about how innovative of a thinker he is and that's the part that probably would blow people's mind if they actually kind of stopped and really you know instead of the snark that comes with it. Cause I think really until the Alabama game, I think what you had for the first couple

of years when he was got to 10 wins, it was like, okay, well they're paying Dave Aranda $2.5 million. So it's, you know, Dave Aranda's doing it or what, you know, and it's like, and now he's like, he hired Joe Brady to help run the offense. And okay, so the assistants get credit. But you know what? Davos Sweeney hired really good assistants, too. He's not calling plays.

He's not an X and O's guru, right? Urban Meyer was never an X and O's guru. They were smart enough to hire really good assistants around them. And I think it took to the Alabama win for a lot of people to finally kind of come to grips with, okay, maybe this guy is different than the guy we've been mocking for the Coach O song or whatever that was in Memphis and all this other stuff that had been just kind of the, you know, the Hummer commercial and all these things that were really easy for people to kind of poke fun at. And as far as, you know, I don't think he reads any of these stories.

I mean, the guy I covered a couple, you know, 10 years ago or 12 years ago, you know, he did read a lot of that stuff or it would get back to him this time. I don't think he has the time or I don't think he cares at this point much about that. Cause I don't, I just don't think, I think he knows better that, you know what, that stuff's not going to help me win games. It's not going to help my team any. So I don't really care what those people think. Those people don't, those people who are making those jokes, they don't matter.

They don't get it. So why am I going to concern myself about what they think? Right. It's any of this stuff. It's hard enough, but you get to a point where you go, this is such a waste of time worrying about all this stuff. Um, especially when you are talking about something as important as maybe winning a national championship.

Uh, who's your fourth team? If everybody wins. No, I, this might be a, being a creature of haven't seen Oklahoma last week at their best. Oklahoma just played a really complete game and bedlam.

Their defense has been inconsistent, but they played well. I mean, I think at this point, it's a toss-up right now. I mean, to me, I think Utah's been more consistent. I think Oklahoma has a slightly better resume. I think it comes down to who looks more impressive and what happens over this weekend. Because I think Utah's got the better defense, and I think Oklahoma's got the more explosive offense.

But if Oklahoma goes in there and thumps Baylor, I think the committee is going to look a little more favorably on Oklahoma than they will on Utah. I just have that hunch on it just because I feel like when you get those, and this is from talking to some people who've been on the committee before, those football coaches, the old football coaches have a lot of clout when it comes to these discussions. And I think they lean towards the eye test. And one of the things that comes with the eye test is familiarity.

And I think it's going to be, at the end of the day, I think it's going to be hard for Utah, for some of those old coaches to look at Utah and see it as a playoff team because they haven't been there. They've seen, granted it was Baker-Maketh, but they've seen Oklahoma go toe-to-toe with Georgia and almost beat them in a playoff game at the Rose Bowl. I just think there's a little more familiarity, a little more comfort with them.

So if Oklahoma plays really well, I think that will be the reason, maybe not the excuse, the reason for the committee to prop them up at the expense of Utah, unless Utah dominates Oregon and Oklahoma doesn't look impressive on Saturday. Yeah, I really don't think Ohio State would have jumped Oklahoma a couple years ago if it weren't, you know, it was TCU and Baylor. I just think there's this hard human nature reflex of, oh, Oklahoma smashed Baylor. Okay.

nature reflex of, Oh, Oklahoma smashed Baylor. Okay. And then where Baylor beats Oklahoma, we were like, Hey, you know, maybe we give Utah a shot here. And I know it sucks. I know it's unfair. I know it's not what people want to hear that are in Utah. I like this, Ryan, this would be the analogy. Like, you know, we're talking, I'm sitting here in, you know, my old meat marketplace kind of, and you're, you know, you do a lot of NBA evaluation kind of stuff. What's one of the things that a lot of people always like to do when they evaluate, oh,

he kind of reminds me of this player. It's always got to get back to like a familiarity place. You know, this guy's a poor man's, you know, whoever you pick your player. And that's how that stuff kind of, I think it's just a little bit of human nature. And that's, that's what I think will happen with that committee when they when they see it especially when hey we know jalen hurts has played in three national title games heiler huntley i'm not sure what i think about him you know that i think that stuff i hope i you know i hope it doesn't come down as simple as that i don't know because i don't know if that's the fair thing to do but i feel like that's how they think because that's what i've

heard how the coaches kind of are. Yeah, that makes sense. But it's really, really brutal for Utah fans to hear. But, you know, whatever. And when I look at their defense and I go, you know, if I put Utah in the group with the other three, there's no way I like Huntley as much as other quarterbacks. But from an efficiency standpoint, you know, he's been incredible. It's just Burrow is off the charts.

All right, do this for me. Say hello to Stringfellow, Louis Bourgeois, Moffitt, and all the guys down at Baton Rouge. Enjoy. Do you want any signature baseball bats? From Rucci? Say hi to him. Make sure you say hi to him too because I haven't talked to him

and I didn't, you know, I was in Tuscaloosa for the game. Let's just put it this way. Hopefully I'll be lining up at a further date. I just don't think I can make Atlantacaloosa for the game. So let's just put it this way. Hopefully, uh, I'll be, I'll be lining up to, uh, at a further date. I just don't think I can make Atlanta this weekend.

That's all. Hey, come on down. I'm going to be there. I got a couple of beers with your name on them. Well, if it's the LSU people, it's going to be,

it's usually more than two, but, uh, yeah, I know. And it's usually probably more than, more than 8% alcohol. Right.

Right. They're just, they're just built different. built different the sec should do instead of it just means more lsu should just do an ad where it's like we're just genetically engineered to to handle a tailgate and a late kickoff better than any other fan base except for maybe wisconsin i would i would always i never want to slight them because they've stepped up in the past. All right. You can read all of Bruce's stuff at The Athletic, at Bruce Feldman CFB. And, of course, you see him on all the Fox coverage. And he is one of the best to do it. Thanks, man. Always a pleasure, Ryan. By the way, Derek says hi.

Okay. That's your Wednesday pod. We'll talk to you on Friday. Please subscribe, rate rate review if you're bored feel free to kick it around a little bit um have a great next two days Thank you.