The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Boston-Philly Reset, More NBA Playoffs With Gilbert Arenas, Author Steven Hyden on Pearl Jam, and Life Advice

Episode Date: May 4, 2023

Russillo shares his Tales From the Couch on Game 2 of Celtics-76ers (0:33), before talking with former NBA star Gilbert Arenas about the Lakers-Warriors series, the Suns' struggles in their series vs. the Nuggets, Playoff Jimmy Butler, stories from Gilbert's career, and more (22:35). Then Ryen talks with author Steven Hyden about his book 'Long Road: Pearl Jam and the Soundtrack of a Generation' (1:01:26), before answering some listener-submitted Life Advice questions (1:33:53). Host: Ryen Russillo Guests: Gilbert Arenas and Steven Hyden Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Loaded, loaded podcast. Going to break down game two, Philly-Boston. Going to break down the rest of the playoffs for the most part with Gilbert Arenas. We're also going to ask him about his nastiest exit ever from a team. And boy, did it get nasty with Stan Van Gundy in Orlando. We're going to talk a little Pearl Jam, new book out from Stephen Hyden. He joined us earlier in the podcast history talking Radiohead. So we'll do that and life advice. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Winter is here, so be prepared and get almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. What do I

mean by almost anything? Well, you can't get a ski slope, but dish soap, definitely doable. Sunshine, that's no. A bottle of wine, yeah. And a snow day, again, no. But blueberry muffins with the delicious crumb topping, total yes. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol and select markets. Product availability may vary by region.

See app for details. Tales from the Couch, one game in the East. Boston hosting Philadelphia. I will do more on Lakers, Warriors, and some of the other series as well with Gilbert arenas coming up. So don't feel left out. Anyway,

a great staff from TNT right at the start of the broadcast. And this is something that I always try to hammer on with everyone about every single playoff series and how games are connected. The result of the previous game influences the result of the next game. So the last 14 times, the road team won game one. The home team won game two. I was like, wow. Okay.

Let's talk about connected. All right. Right from the jump, we know Embiid is coming back. MVP. Rolex. Has anyone ever seen anyone get a watch before? Based on last night's content, that must have been the first time for millions of people. All right. So Horford immediately watching him,

I'm like, okay, he's away from the rim, takes two threes in the first 240. Those were purposeful threes. You could see it with his decision-making. He didn't make any last night, by the way. I think he had one. But the point was this was a proactive thing that he was going to do. I'm going to make Embiid have to respect me out here. I'm going to try to move him away from the rim. And that was obviously by design. I was curious of whether or not we would see the double bigs later on the Rob Al Horford deal. We did see it. Again, this game was such a blowout that I don't know that there's a ton of stuff that I go,

ooh, a little of this, a little of that, a little of that. So we're going to run through it all, obviously, but different things. I also feel like whenever something doesn't work, this is the mistake a lot of us make. We assume that you have to do something differently the next day. And as I've tried to remind, like I remember that Milwaukee-Atlanta series, certain things that were happening in drop coverage, although we do know the stubbornness of Milwaukee's approach in the past at times. But it's not even specific to that series. There are certain times something will look like, you can't do that anymore, or you shouldn't play him there, or you can't have that be the

defensive assignment. And then the next game, it's all the same. And the result is completely different. And that's why the coaches do not give in to this as much as maybe we would want them to, which is, again, another alarming thing about Phoenix that throughout all of this, I feel like they've just gone, oh, well, maybe we'll just do this or maybe we'll just do that. Adjustments are funny because we all want them. And then sometimes we get them and we're like, but with this case with Embiid,

you knew Boston was just going to play the game differently. You have to play the game differently. So I thought Embiid looked pretty good overall. Defensively, he looked great. The block, just influencing anything at the rim, you could tell immediately it was very different for Boston on some of the drives. Offensively,

I don't think any of us that would respect an opinion out there or anyone that's offering out opinions of people that we like or even if you don't like them, you just think, okay, at least this person is somebody who makes sense generally. Embiid not playing in game two because he did look rusty. He looked rusty offensively. I just, you know, I don't, I would not agree with wanting to do that

if he's going to go ahead and be cleared and we'll get to kind of his quote at the end of this whole thing. So yeah, he looked a little, look when he's healthy and scoring like 40 and looking like the best player in the world, there's times where it looks like he's laboring. So that's just the way he's going to look at times. But now we had like a visual excuse with the knee bandage and everything and him being out. So it wasn't great, but there was a bunch of this that wasn't great for Philadelphia. So another thing I was looking for is the free throw attempts because it wasn't likely you were going to have another game match what happened in game one with no free throw attempts in the first half of Philadelphia

and Harden got a call at 723 and I was like okay here we go there was also a play where Smart dove on PJ Tucker it was so dirty by Smart if you're a Philly fan he obviously would get payback on diving for loose balls a little bit later we will get to that play with Embiid. I just hate that play. I thought it was worse than the time smart Dovett Curry during the regular season of last year. You can sit there if you're a Celts fan and be like, oh, I just love that grit, Tommy Point, hustle and all that stuff. It's bullshit. It is because you kind of know, especially as one of these elite athletes, you know what you're doing with your body. And then the way he hit PJ, I thought like PJ, we were going to have a leg amputation situation.

So they were yelling on the broadcast, like, oh, PJ's down. And then it was away. So we didn't really get to see. And look, there are just certain players in the league now, as soon as they're dinged up at all physically, whether they're hurt and actually getting over it, or they're just a little theatrical

about it. And P.J. is a very demonstrative player, but I just kind of hated that play. Anyway, Celtics double bigs at 648 of the first, so very early with that one. First quarter, let's run through the summary. Boston's up 28-22. They're plus three on field goal attempts. They're plus six points on threes. Both teams only one turnover, but Philly's in this by not making any shots because they're 9-10 from the free throw line. Grant Williams, now a factor again. It feels like a real bonus for Boston because even though rotationally I thought there was a chance for him to get in in some of the games against Atlanta,

you can see matchup-wise why, because I just don't know that his defense was as good this year as it was last year. I think you could see defensively, maybe Missoula not trusting it as much, his offense dipping a bit. But man, if you watch Grant, and you're going to see him more in this series,

when he has the Embiid assignment, he was absolutely busting his ass to fight for position and also just try to get into the way of any kind of entry pass. Not saying he's cutting off the entry pass, but influencing the angle. It was incredible stuff watching him fight. Tons of credit for him coming right in and going, I have no chance physically against Embiid. I have to just work him and I have to change sides to the ball and fight and fight and fight. Like I'm not just going to sit behind him and let him get the catch. Not that Embiid's still not going to get the catch at times. And then on top of that, depending on who the primary ball handler was on some of the stuff where Embiid is set up at the free throw line, which we know is where he's going to live. You could have the defender on the ball, cheat a little bit, not too much, especially if it's Harden, because you can't give Harden any space. Then you'd have on the other side, whoever was playing on the perimeter, cheating towards Embiid. So it was almost like this mini three-man zone against Embiid,

trying to influence the catch. And then once he made the catch, make it tougher for him. So I thought that's not an adjustment. That's what they're going to do. It's just the difference between Embiid being in the game and not being in the game, which should open up things from the outside, but it didn't happen because Philly didn't make any threes. One of my favorite misses now of the 2023 season is Jalen Brown going in Embiid and trying to dunk on him. It was an all-time block from Embiid, but Jalen having that mindset to do it, being like, all right, whatever, I could miss it anyway. I thought that was just the, just those,

those are the things you want to see. You want to see those from your basketball players for the guys that are going to have the ball in their hands, the biggest moment showing absolutely no fear or, you know, just the ego part of like, oh, this guy rejected my shit.

All right. Who cares? Like, would you rather just have a miss? We throw it way off the top of the glass to avoid the block, which we can see sometimes too. Cause it's like, I don't care if I miss this. I'm just going to throw it up there and see what happens. At 50-38, Sixers call a timeout with 4-41. After that timeout, as Missoula is mic'd up saying, let's win the quarter, let's win the quarter. Philly went on a 6-0 run. It's

50-44. Honestly, even though there was like eight-point stretches and the halftime score wasn't insurmountable, it's only eight points, that 50-44 felt like the last time Philly really felt like a threat in the game. Halftime, as I said, 57-49. Boston is now plus 21 in threes. 8-22 versus 1 of 13 for Philadelphia from deep. This is usually

not an indication that the Celtics are leading. Smart had the most field goal attempts with 13 at the half. I think Jalen Brown had 12. You're wondering where this game is going to go. You're wondering where Tatum is. Tatum is having trouble with the fouls. We didn't get to see the replay on a charge,

which I do think it was a charge. And then he ended up, I thought, picking up a third foul, but they gave it to Grant. He got his fourth foul later on by trying to chase Harden around his screen and he reached, which you shouldn't do because Harden's going to jump back into the arm. But on this play, Tatum actually just got his arm caught into Embiid and then it just got stuck and then hit Harden. So Tatum had just a brutal night. We'll get to his final numbers a little bit later. The third quarter, as much as I felt like Boston was in control of the game, it's still only an eight-point game. Boston went

bananas in the third. They won it 35-16, and that was pretty much the game. You had an ugly pickup game phase in the fourth and then that was only replaced by even uglier. Somebody's going to get hurt last run of the day at the park. Ugly pickup game phase. Although Rob W. still in at the five-minute mark of the fourth. Don't quite get that one. Some criticism of Maxie today because of the loose ball stuff.

And now this is the second time I've noticed this in the series that when Doc says, hey, it's the loose balls, they're getting everything. That was part of it. I mean, the shooting's really not something you're going to be able to survive with. And we'll get to those final shooting numbers here in a bit. But if you notice the times where Maxie doesn't get a loose ball or is ball watching a bit. Like, I just don't like how consistently NBA players will lose somebody in a box out. Like, you're just supposed to find somebody. Put your arm out there.

But guys don't do it. Maxie's guilty of it because Maxie's waiting to get the outlet and go. So Maxie, who is such a problem in transition, like it's it's helpless. And it's not like he's the biggest. He's so quick and you can see the defender backpedaling. There are times I feel like he drives one on two, and he still has the advantage. That's how good he is at it.

So I'd say to Philly fans, there's some clips certainly that look like he could have given you more effort, but I don't know that you get those fast breakouts from him because as soon as the ball is up, he is dialed in of trying to get out on the break and give you something in transition, which I think is a really important part of their offense because they're just easy points and you have a huge advantage of it. So this game's over. Tatum won a 7-7 points. Each fan base can play the game of, well, hey, Boston's up, or excuse me,

Boston's tied 1-1 here. They win this one big. They were clearly more dominant, and B looks rusty, and Tatum's not going to go one for seven again, so this has to feel great. Okay, you could do that, but every box score has multiple examples of this being baked in where you would think, well, that's not going to happen again, where you want to keep all the positives and then think only the negatives will improve,

where Philly on the other side is going, wait, we shot it better than anybody from three all season long, 38.7% from distance, number one in the NBA, and they shot six of 30 last night. Boston was 20 of 51. So you can look at that and be like, hey, that's not going to happen again. And it's likely that wouldn't happen again. What's a little scary, though, if you're Philly,

is 20 of 51, as good as that number is. Man, were they wide open last night. These are wide open. Like, this could have been worse. Another probably not going to repeat itself. I'm not a big when somebody doesn't play well in the playoffs and has an awesome game like Harden did. We gave him his credit, but the Flowers bullshit. Don't quite get that.

hours bullshit. Don't quite get that. Harden 2 of 14, 0 of 6 from 3, 4 assists, 8 of 10 free throws. I tracked the Harden bullshit foul counter at my house. It's not an officially recognized stat. You won't see it anywhere else. I told myself, don't share, don't share. I'm going to share it. I had five. Could be be wrong tnt is not showing replays of fouls like is it zero no the number's not zero they're not showing them uh it's very frustrating because sometimes i need to see these and so then i have to rewind it but i like that slow motion different angle kind of thing they did have the uh the drone flying and that sucked. No one liked that very much. Maybe we're overreacting. So if you ask about the Harden part of this, you go,

is there a real issue here of the eight days off versus only one day off? I'd imagine for Harden at this stage, yeah. But you know what? He's probably going to have another big game at some point because he is good enough to do it. It's just sustaining it and then what he will look like in a game six or a game seven if this series goes that far, which probably feels like it will, because you're going to get something better from Embiid.

You'd think he's going to be better unless this injury is as bad as maybe he was hinting at afterwards. Again, I don't know. I don't know. His quote was, the way we saw it with what I have, it's supposed to be out four to six weeks or something like that. So if you're a Boston fan, you're like, well, what are you talking about? He's hurt. He's not playing well. Rosillo, you talk about Harden's playoff history all the time. So maybe game one's a fluke like Boston all the way. I don't know. Maybe I've also watched this

Boston team who I do think at times like this is what they're capable of, but I'm not in love with them. You know, there was no dominant team this year. It's playing out that way in the playoffs. And for those that are newer listeners, okay. And shout out to a record-breaking episode, I think six weeks ago, 1.3 million listeners. million listeners for new listeners if i had you know in robes and tiva days a stone mason write up my commandments i would i would say like this is the most important thing you have to understand about playoff basketball and i said it at the top because I thought it was a really interesting stat now with game one losers at home now 15 and 0 in the last 15. Every game is connected. You cannot pretend you're down 0-1 when you're up 1-0. Especially when the teams, there's not some massive gap between them.

Yes, I think Boston's better. I thought we saw some stuff in the regular season. Sure, you could argue Tatum hits the game winner. That doesn't go in. Maybe the whole thing is split. The Embiid toss. You know what I mean? I know we can all do these things all day.

I do think Boston's better. Atlanta was alarming at times. So I wonder about the closing toughness. Maybe this is just their individual series of tests, and they'll be stronger for it. I would have thought that would have happened in the finals last year, whether letting Atlanta get back into some of those games where it felt like Boston was in control. It's like, how many times can you do that

if you think you're actually going to be playing in the NBA finals? This also for both fan bases as you watch Miami and New York, or who knows, good luck with that one. I have no idea how Miami was still competitive. Although the lack of a on-ball creator late, like an elite guy, the guys we all freak out about, the guys we always want to trade for, or the guys that always demand the trades. The reason why we talked and spent so much time on those dudes is because they are so incredibly important in these games the last two or three minutes when everything is kind of breaking down. And when the Heat all of a sudden didn't have one,

that I thought was the difference in game two was New York evens that series. But if you're a Philly fan or you're a Boston fan, you're probably looking at a series going, this second round matchup kind of feels like the Easter Conference Finals. Dismissive? Yes. Honest? Also yes. So, back to my tenant here of everything being connected. We fall for it all the time. We see the game win results. The only result we have to look

at and we go, alright, wait, what's going on here? No, these things are not going to happen because you can't fake being desperate. The reason why if two teams are matched and it's 0-2, there's no way, despite all the pregame routine and all the mic'd up coaching stuff and all the timeouts, all the cliche shit that it said over and over and over again, if the other team that's down 0-2 is close to you in ability and talent, they're just going to play harder unless they have no soul whatsoever. And there's all sorts of things going on behind the scenes

that we don't know about. So to see this series evened up, you know, look, if it went the other way, right? What if Boston held on to game one? Philly comes back. They're more energized. They're more desperate. This series is 1-1 going back.

It's the same 1-1 finality of the two games in Boston. But, you know, it's probably just more of a bummer today if you're in Philadelphia. If you were down 0-2, you'd probably get game three in Philly, looking at how this Boston team doesn't really seem to have that ultimate killer instinct that you'd want. Maybe we overrate or assume every team that wins an NBA title has that thing. Again, all games are connected. Last thought here on Embiid, because he didn't look great on offense last night, an alarming play to the third quarter

where he got smart back for diving at P.J. Tucker where he just flattened him. That's the play with Embiid that drives me fucking crazy. He's got smart on him. And smart's probably better against post players than he is some of the quickest guards, although nobody's great against the quickest guards in the league. So Smart actually has the Embiid assignment. He's fighting with him. He's fighting with him. Embiid gets it down to just be on the right block. And Embiid has to realize at that

point, like Horford's kind of roaming a bit, depending on who he's defending and who the sub pattern or what the sub patterns are for Philadelphia. And Embiid turns baseline as if he, like, did you really think you were going to have a clear look at it? I don't get why he seems, because he actually can be a really good passer. And I know he had that bad turnover on that pass. I mean, he forced it, whatever, not a big deal. That's one of the things where you don't play. I think he was gone for 12 days. Worst hit, whatever. Not a big deal. That's one of the things where you don't play.

I think he was gone for 12 days. You know, stupid stuff like that will happen when you don't play for a while. But he turned into Horford. And those are the moments where I'm like, how can you not,

like, did you think no one was going to be coming over to help defend on you? Especially when Horford's been kind of helping a little bit anyway. So he crunched smart,

whatever. That wasn't the game. The game was a million missed threes. Boston going crazy, having a good defensive approach to Embiid, and Embiid looking a little rusty. I would not have... If you tell me,

hey, they shouldn't have even played Embiid, give them the extra couple days, I disagree. Because you also never know what's going to happen. Some of the thoughts on punting on individual playoff games to be ready for the next playoff game, you only have seven of these you have no I like weird shit

happens so I would never if my guys cleared and yes going to be a little hurt I go let's let's get them out there and see if can't take two of these in Boston then go back to Philadelphia that's not what happened but I have no issue with a coming guy complaining. The NBA playoffs are here, and you can turn crossovers into cash

with FanDuel. Just visit fanduel.com slash Ryan, R-Y-E-N, right now and place a $5 bet, and you'll get an instant $150 in bonus bets. All right, I have a bet I love, and I knew it was going to happen. I wanted to see what the number would be on FanDuel. And this is a heavy advice.

I don't know that I've ever done that in the history of this segment. All right. So the Celtics series odds were pretty bad before the series started. And then when Philly got game one, you were getting it. It wasn't even, but like what you'd have to pay out to get back your hundred one, you were getting it. It wasn't even, but what you'd have to pay out to get back your a hundred bucks wasn't great because Boston was so heavily favored on some of the FanDuel stuff. And then it kind of flattened out a little bit after the first game. I'm not even proposing that one. I'm not even proposing laying the point, point and a half on FanDuel right now for game

three of Boston, Philadelphia. What I'm proposing is Al Horford over one and a half made threes. As I mentioned during the breakdown of game two, Horford taking threes and making Embiid have to respect that and defend it is a big part of what Boston is going to try to do. I don't think his eight attempts are a fluke. Eight is high, but it's also him going one for eight is more of a fluke than him actually taking eight. So I say game three, the bet is minus 130 over one and a half on made threes for Al Horford.

So there you go. Very specific. Need to do that more often. Enjoy. I'm not even worried about the result. Enjoy. Start spending that money before you have it. There's no better place to bet all the playoff action than America's number one sportsbook.

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in New York. 1-800-522-4700 in Wyoming or visit 1-800-GAMBLER.NET in West Virginia. Gilbert Arenas joins us again. Excited about this. He and Josiah Johnson host Gills Arena, which airs live Tuesday through Thursday, 1130 a.m. Pacific Time.

That's 2.30 Eastern. It's part of the Underdog Content Network and available on YouTube, the iHeartRadio app, and everywhere podcasts are heard. I was watching some of the clips of Gilbert last night, so he joins us. What's up, man? Good to see you. Thank you for having me.

Thank you for having me. All right, so I kind of just ended the clips of Gilbert last night. So he joins us. What's up, man? Good to see you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me. All right. So I kind of just ended the start of the pod talking about Embiid and the decision there of bringing him back. Certainly he was rusty. He knows he's not going to be 100%. What did you see last night? Same thing.

You know, with Embiid, I always understood when it comes to certain team schemes, they're planning for certain guys. When it comes to the playoffs, the playoffs is really tricky because you get this big old playbook of what everyone can do and team structures defensively is around certain players. And Embiid coming back rusty, still a little injured, just winning a big award, right? All those emotions, you know, coming in, playing against a team that has his number, that's

had his number in the past in the playoffs. I felt that he should have waited a little more for that home game where the crowd is behind him a little bit more so he can really feel that home love and come out and perform. Yeah, Boston was definitely geared up and losing, feeling like they probably let game one get away from them too, so you knew they were going to come back. It's something that, again, I talked about at the top that I believe in, in that if the teams are pretty even,

I always feel like the team that lost just comes back with something that the team that won can't replicate. Can you think back to some of the series that you'd played in? I know the playoff history. I love that Cleveland series so much in 2006. What was the back and forth like that? Because you would actually even it up at two apiece through the first four. Yes.

For a road team, the easiest game to win is game one. So you really try to throw all your eggs on game one because that team, they have the home crowd advantage. They have more emotions than you do. You just got to withstand any type of, you know, run that they're going to throw at you. So game one is usually the easiest one to steal. Game two, everyone's locked in. You can usually give that to the home team, unless you're just a dominant team. You know, when it came to Cleveland,

they outsmarted. We didn't understand as a group how brilliant LeBron was. How tactical he was back then. I'm watching him pregame.

I'm watching him the night before, you know, we're hanging out and, you know, watching him study film and, you know, like, ah, you know, that's, yeah, that's, you know, I've seen people watch film on me and still get the ass whooped, right? But to understand our defense and understand his ability to tell his coach to sub out a player. So we sub out a player. Now LeBron has the advantage. I didn't catch on to it until it was too late. Okay, so what did you need to catch on to earlier? Okay, so the way our lineup was is we had Brendan Haywood at the five.

Jared Jeffries, who guarded him, was our four man, but guarded him at the five. Jared Jeffries, who guarded him, was our four man, but guarded him at the three. We had Antoine, who couldn't guard LeBron at the time, guarding Eric Snow. But what happened was, because we have a longer guy on him,

who's 6'11", plus a seven footer waiting for him it was hard for him to finish at the rim like he wanted to so what he'll do is when he was ready to attack he'll sub out elgowskis he'll have he'll give the signal have elgowskis subbed out we sub out brendan now our backup is smaller than lebron so So once LeBron got past Jared Jeffries, he had a 6'8 guy waiting for him. So when you look at all the game winners he made, our center was never there. And that's just one of those things that,

you know, when coaches sub a player and then you sub yours to make it match, the one who's doing the subbing for you to move your guy is the one who has the game plan. You're just reacting to it. Yeah, and for those that need a reminder here, Gilbert averaged 47 minutes a game in that series, 34, 5, and 5,

and lit it up from 3 on 8 attempts a game. Is there a favorite memory? Because they got the last two. LeBron had the game winner. That was kind of like the first playoff moment for him in a game. What's your, is there a favorite memory? Because they got the last two. LeBron had the game winner. That was kind of like the first playoff moment for him in a way. It was just such a fun series

and it felt personal and as him being a young player, although it's not like you were that old when you were going back and forth, it felt like it was just, I know what everybody thinks about the tiers

of where I am versus him, but that series was kind of a reminder of like the top scorers, the guys like you at that time. You'd be like, everybody else can say whatever they think, but I'm not going into these games thinking that. Yeah, when you think about playoff, what makes a great playoff match

is the two stars everyone coming to see are performing. And we both did that for that series. He just made bigger plays at the end of that game, you know, that put them over the top, you know. He didn't fail. And, you know, when players, when they talk about clutch, right, I'm a clutch player, right? So I understand what they're saying when they're talking about clutch. He's not clutch, but they're not understanding.

Clutch also works with making the right decision also. That is still clutch too. Making the right decision that ends in the same results. He has that gene. He might not want to be the one that will take a desperate shot to finish it. He might make the right pass. Right? So it falls under the same category.

And he just made just a little bit more plays than me. My favorite moment was when I hit the, I think it was game five, game six, when I hit the three to put it to overtime. And then the worst, my worst moment is missing the two free throws in that overtime to get put out of the playoffs. So the same, within the five minutes, I became a hero and a villain. Right. Clutch and then not clutch within a short amount of time. When I'm watching that Lakers-Golden State series, I know when Golden State went small, that might be the thing people

are looking for them to do. I don't know if that's an answer over 48 minutes. Look, it's the first time Golden State lost a game where they made 15 more threes than their opponents. The free throw edge, which we knew was going to be a problem for Golden State, was pretty dramatic, 29-6. What did you think of the series before it started and after game one? Has anything changed? I broke it down back to LeBron and his Cleveland days.

I feel he has a better cast than he did when he was facing them. If you take out Kyrie, who's just a difference maker, when you think about the rest of the lineup, the role players, the role players for the Lakers, they're better than what he was working with Cleveland. And the fact that Golden State is not the same team. Yeah, they have the same three players, but they're not the same three players they used to be. The only player that's really better than he was then is Steph.

Draymond is half himself of then. Klay, you know, he's still trying to figure out who he is, what type of player he is in today's game with the knee injuries and all of that. So he's not the same clay. But with Anthony Davis and you have Reeves and all these role players, they're better than that Cavs team that Golden State was going against. So I have Lakers in five and six.

I just don't think Golden State is that equipped these days. you know, LeBron and Steph is going to be LeBron and Steph. It's everyone else. Can everyone else still pull their weight? And I don't think Golden State has the bench they used to have to do that. Yeah, you know, you go

back and look at it, because I pulled it up as you said it, because I kind of was like, hmm? You know, did one of those on you. This version of AD versus Kyrie actually is debatable. It's just that Kyrie, what he did in those last three games, very few players could ever do in the NBA Finals, which is why I think we still talk about the guy. Kevin Love was, if you look at the numbers, they're okay.

If you watched it, it was worse than probably what the numbers feel like today because it was a really weird time for Kevin Love where it wasn't happening all the time for him. So as you said it, I honestly, at first, I was like, okay, here we go. We got him warmed up um it might it might not be crazy but like I the AD part like if you're telling me this is what AD is going to be the rest of the playoffs then yeah I could see the Lakers capable of doing anything and it's it's the irony for me is a little bit with him where I felt like I was still defending him all the time.

I remember I went on with Colin Cowherd and he's like, isn't he just basically Rasheed Wallace? And I was like, oh, or he has like the third highest PR and playoff history behind Jordan LeBron prior to, you know, some of the more recent stuff, perhaps. So I've defended him and defended him, but I just couldn't imagine him staying healthy the whole time. But when he's engaged and when he's doing what he, like forget the block numbers, like Golden State would try and it wasn't happening, which is also a reason why they're not going to get as many free throws because then you just start abandoning the entire deal of finishing at the rim against him, even if I think a plus 23 is a little absurd in a playoff game.

Yeah, you know, defensively, if he's engaged, I mean, you know, when it comes to Kyrie, you're not going to, that last two-minute guy, you're going to lose that. You know, so you're going to lose the guy who can just make great shots in the last two minutes of a game to put you over top. But when it comes to defense, when it comes to just, you know, offensive rebound or something like that if Anthony Davidson give them a solid 25 and 15 and then you have Reeves and you have a better squad um with Golden State no one played bad you know we can't go into game two and I give these guys a speech and say hey right you know you know just play a right. You know, you know, just play a little bit, you know, better. Are you guys played well, all the key players I need

played well enough for us to win this game and we still lost. Um, so it's, it's one of those things like, like, it's not like, you know, Steph played well and Clay didn't or pool didn't everyone did their thing. Right. Reasonably. And you know, you, well and Klay didn't or Poole didn't. Everyone did their thing, right? Reasonably. And, you know, you take a loss. So inside that kind of hurts a little bit. So going out there saying, oh, you know, if we make 30 threes, you know, we can pull it out. Well, shit, if they make 10 threes, they can pull it out. So it's one of those things where you look at it from afar and say, I don't see them getting to the free throw line 20 times. I don't see them abandoning what they do great is shoot shots before they get fouled. I mean, so it's one of those things.

It's not like they have a James Harden, someone who knows how to collect free throws. It's not like Steph plays like Trey Young, where he understands how to get fouled you know you know that's the difference between him and Trey that Trey understands the the how to get fouled and do a lot of flopping which would help Steph get to the free throw line more in this series um but Steph respects the game too much to do that look you're you we haven't ever hung out so like you're not realizing that you're hitting on like two real sore spots with me between the harden and the tray free throw hunting because if everybody played that way then nobody would watch and the podcast would suck

what's so funny if everyone if everyone had the ability to play that way they would uh if everyone had to remember jordan come on jordan made it famous when he drove and used to do this to make it seem like he was getting slapped right you bring the arm up into the defender's arm above you like duncan used to do it like in a big spot when he needed it if the post player had his arms up he would he would rip it you know he would only do it like when he felt like he needed to but i'm just telling you i hate it but you know whatever like if they are going to call it it's one of those things where imagine finding a glitch right i like the word glitch that's good it's a glitch in the game where human nature over exceeds a rule. Like I know if I'm driving this way, you're going to have to cut me off when you cut me off.

I'm just going to pull up. Right. It's just a it's just a glitch. It's just a glitch that, you know, the smarter you have to be. You have to be intelligent. You have to understand rules to figure out some of these glitch moves. Right. So we're not talking about, you know, when you're talking about Tim Duncan, you're talking about intelligence, you know, Steve Nash, his intelligence on picking roles. It's, you know, the great ones really do understand the loopholes inside the NBA. It was funny too, with Steph, as I thought he went foul hunting more last year towards the end when

he felt like he needed like he'd have stretches where it was like all right i i know i need to do this a little bit more again this is just you're right i'm just complaining about it so i don't want to spend too much time on it let's let's play the teammate game who would you rather be teammates within a playoff series right now step Steph or LeBron? Oh. Wow. Jesus Christ. That's like saying, like, Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers. Like, come on.

I think you were going to go somewhere else there, and I appreciate the edit. No, no, no. I'm just trying to say, like can like these two just make a... Yeah, sure. You can't go wrong, right? Wait, wait. Am I a player?

Yeah, it's you. It's Gilbert Arenas playing. Oh, man. I'll say Steph. Just because you feel like he's going to give you some more spacing, right? Spacing, he moves. The way he plays the game, you're going to get a lot more tips. You know, with LeBron, you know, that fourth quarter,

game shortens, score shortens. I mean, he's the only guy in history that probably has in a quarter. In that half, he's averaging about 90-something in today's game. You can take the under on any halftime score that's like 105 and under. Yeah, he's going to go under no matter what. Yeah, and i think he had

some late drives there too where he was like okay i'm going to that energy reservoir here and i'm gonna like there's no one at the rim i'm afraid of so you know it was funny because as the lakers switch out pool for looney and looney's had this amazing run it was like okay lebron's gonna be looking for that because i feel like some golden state side of it is, oh, they found something with that run by going small. I don't think you're going to go small the whole time. It's not realistic. Looney still is too good in certain ways. You've got to at least have somebody physically matching up

with Anthony Davis, almost like running the football where you're like, it may not be the best version of us, but we have to get these minutes where he has somebody who's at least close to his size in there. But LeBron, knowing that that wasn't happening, then D'Angelo Russell had the big basket there too. Okay, I have another one for you then. Tatum or Booker?

Come on. You know, Tatum wears zero because of me. So I got to go Tatum. All right. I got to go Tatum. I got to go Tatum. I got to go Tatum. But, you know, they're both great.

The way... There's just different realms. The way Tatum plays the game is way different than Booker. Booker is one to get to a spot. He doesn't do a lot of dribbling. He doesn't do a lot of messing with the ball. He's just going to get to a spot. So he's going to have

more opportunities to play. When you're thinking about trying to be a second starter to someone, you have to look at the possessions that those guys are playing at. I'd rather be a second guy behind a guy who just quick shoots

because there's more possessions in that game. So I'd rather be a one-two combo with Devin Booker knowing that there's more possessions in that game right so i'd rather be you know a one-two combo with devin booker knowing that there's still going to be a i can still get my my 16 to 18 shots with him there's an aggressiveness with booker that i don't think tatum has and it's more of credit to just how you as you said booker's not screwing around yeah like i'm going like he's he's trying to get he's trying to get to his 40. He doesn't care about

the sports center type of plays. He's just going to get to what he needs to get to. Booker also mixes it up with a lot of guys and I don't know

that he's looking for it but then sometimes he is. I don't know. It's weird. Like at the end of game two you know you got a little shoving match

there was was Brown I believe and I was like oh. It's weird. Like at the end of game two, you know, you got a little shoving match. There was was Brown, I believe. And I was like, oh, that's right. And then he had the Luka thing. But I almost feel like a lot of times when Booker is getting into it with somebody, I'm like, oh, I think this one's actually justified. Where other players are, you know, other guys that are always mixing it up with everybody. I'm like, what are you doing with Booker? He's in this. I don't know if there's ever been another player where every time he's into it with somebody else.

I'm like, yeah, I actually could see his point on this one. Maybe I just like this, I don't know if there's ever been another player where every time he's into it with somebody else, I'm like, yeah, I actually could see his point on this one. Maybe I just like him. I don't know. No, usually he's because he's quiet, you know. Yeah. So when he does get the going, it's because you're messing with him a little bit too much.

What do you think the problem is for Phoenix in this series against Denver? Probably they underestimate it. And I think all of us are underestimating how good Denver is. If you go back last three, four years, Denver in the playoffs have lost to either a team that won the championship or a team that went to the championship.

So with 80% of their team, right? So they haven't had a full team when they've taken these L's. So now that you gave them everyone back, we're not understanding what that really looked like. And, you know, with the full team, Joker playing, you know, the way he's been playing for the last three years, full-team Joker playing, you know, the way he's been playing for the last three years, and Murray back, that gives them that guy who can finish shots and the potential of 40 and 50.

You know, he can carry a squad. It makes them, it really heightens their chances of actually taking it to the championship. And they move too much for Phoenix. You know, this is a game where Phoenix has to play solid defense. When you have someone like Joker, when you're thinking about Joker, you're thinking about Steve Nash. You're thinking about John Stockton.

You're thinking about Magic Johnson visual. The visual, he's finding players that you're not paying attention to back door. And so when you're talking about Booker and KD, you might not be guarding a great player defensively but Joker is looking for your weakness defensively you turn your head you know you look tired he's looking for those guys so that puts a whole nother element into your defensive um strategy when you're guarding Denver and I don't know if they're disciplined enough okay so that's a good segue in um who would you rather well see if I say who would you rather play with Giannis or Jokic you're gonna say Jokic I mean because you're gonna your life is gonna be

easier in passing uh speaking of Giannis you caught an epic amount of shit um when you said he doesn't really know how to play basketball i'm paraphrasing a bit and then you you've since changed your position on that the timing was on your side with him exiting look just to be fair i i was like what the hell is he talking about um do you think american players have a harder time or perhaps more critical of the international players? No, not really, because usually the international players have the advantage of being more well-rounded in the game of basketball. So there's this thing like everyone here glorifies Hoopers, right? Hoopers is not basketball. There's a difference.

Hooper and a basketball player are two different people, right? A basketball player understands basketball. Like Dion Waiters, Hooper. Yes. Yeah, you know, Jordan Poole is a Hooper. No, I get it. Yeah, right. You know what a Hooper is. It's a guy at a pickup

game that you're like, is he a Hall of Famer? Yes, Right? So the Lucas and the Jokic and the Steve Nash and those guys, the Dirks, those are basketball players. So international are bringing basketball players. Giannis is a hooper. Right? And the difference between him is he has this heart that just is unstoppable.

Has nothing to do with his ability. So when I say he's not, he doesn't understand basketball. He doesn't understand. And I said, like, give him Tim Duncan's mentality. Basketball wise.

Oh, he would be the greatest thing. That's all I'm fucking saying. I'm not saying that the kid can't play. Obviously, he knows how to play the game, but does he know, does he understand how to play the game? Because if he did, he

wouldn't know that you're 16 out of 107 or 120 from jump shots and threes against Miami. They're doing something that you're 16 out of 107 or 120 from jump shots and threes against Miami. They're doing something that you're not paying attention to, and you haven't understood that yet, or you would have cleaned this part of your game up. You will understand at some point,

you just can't keep driving full court, trying to do a year on everybody. You're going to have to evolve this game. So when I look at his weaknesses and strengths from when he was getting drafted and say, okay, what is it now? Oh, same weaknesses, same strength. All he had done has gotten bigger,

meaner, and nastier as just a human, right? And, you know, it's, has he understood the elements, where the double team is is coming from what is a pull up, right? You know, I don't need to, and I need to save my body, save my energy for the fourth quarter. And right now he's like, he's like a young Westbrook. He's just playing this game. He's just that gifted where he's just playing the game hard. And when you say, go out there, just play hard, that's what he's doing. Okay, I have a lot there because there's a lot of it that I agree with. And the problem for your argument, though, is that he won, right? And because he won, it means you can't be right.

But that's not a great argument. Well, or maybe it's the best argument, which again, I would push back because I think as soon as you win, it's like best start which again i would push back because i think you know as soon as you win it's like oh no no like everything you do works because i forever held fast on durant is better than janice like give me a break he's just better like the handle the size i know i can get a jumper from him if everybody loads up to that side like janice can't do those things one durant got hurt all the time.

And then two, what Giannis did, not only in the finals run and winning, but, you know, for listeners know how much I loved him after the Milwaukee lost to Boston last year in the second round where I went. I think he's the rare player who physically, you know, it's very shackish where I don't need all those extra skills. Physically, there's nothing you can do with me because of how my body type and, as you point out, the determination, the nastiness, the meanness to him, which is what I love.

But the Westbrook part of it's funny because I'm not a huge Westbrook guy because I'll be like, well, look, some of those teams are pretty good. Like that Jazz series loss, where it was he and Paul George, there's no way you should lose the young Donovan Mitchell against that Jazz roster. And I feel like the Westbrook approach is great for stats.

And over the course of the regular season, he wins some games because he does have more energy than anyone ever. I think he's on a very short list of the greatest athletes that have ever played in this game. But I don't know if the teammates enjoy it as much. And when your teammates aren't as enjoying it as much, they're not going to be as engaged. And then I think the teammates around Westbrook felt like they now all of a

sudden it's like, wait, you're asking me to take this shot after six months of never like me, never getting this. So the difference, I still think Giannis is more of a willing teammate than Westbrook ever was. Despite me, like I totally get it because this

kind of one-mindedness full throttle the entire time um I get the comp there I get what you're saying yeah no when when it comes to Giannis and just on the court his work I would never question like as a teammate there's nothing you can, I would never second guess nothing he does because, you know, his personality, his work ethic, his determination, just to see his body transform, just the way, you know, he just gives it a thousand percent every night. I would never question that, right? That is not what the question is. My thing is, you have this gift here right so this is this is how i look at when i look at greatness and you know we have michael jordan we know what the elements of talent body and you know dedication looks like right and when i look at yannis and and I'm like, if you just thought the game and slowed the game down in moments like Tim Duncan, who would you be, right? Embiid,

if you had Giannis' engine, who would you be, right? What Giannis possessed, that's just effort for you. Skill-wise, you're way more talented. This guy, when it comes to just pure basketball, if you had his, his love for this game, what it will be, it will be a whole different player. And then it's like, well, you know what? If I can just give Janice your skill, just give them your skill, work on your skill. Like, you know, and be, who would you be? And that's, that's what I ended up doing. Right. just give Janice your skill. Just give him your skill. Work on your skill. And B, who would you be? And that's what I end up doing.

So I look for what can make you the ultimate guy because that's who you're supposed to be trying to be like. Okay, so this is a good pivot into something else. And I have a few more things before we say goodbye to you today. But when I watch Jimmy Butler in the playoffs, like everybody else, you go, okay, are are we because I think like any of us even though it can be obsessive and repetitive and maybe not that original all the time like I'm always thinking about okay that first tier group right that first year how many players could you actually say this guy could be the single best player in the league and it's not a crazy statement right so whether it's Giannis at times, Durant certainly, some nights with Embiid,

you know, I'm not going to just start writing off Luka here all of a sudden despite the problems they had at the end of that year. And then it kind of, you know, it pivots into some other guys, although I feel like I'm forgetting somebody right now. But then you watch Jimmy Butler and like, okay, well, I know I'm not supposed to say

he's like top three in the league, but then it's like okay well I know I'm not supposed to say he's like top three in the league but then it's like well should I be saying this more often about him when Jokic obviously Jokic who has the two MVPs I apologize for not having that up the top of my head what do you do with Jimmy Butler when you're talking to your buddies about who he is in this game. Jimmy Butler is the guy that will cringe your starting fives when you're trying to make up starting fives

and someone throws in Jimmy Butler and it makes you think, what do you know that I don't know? Because when you think about Jimmy Butler, you think about regular season, just like anything. And he's never going to go on anybody's radar during the regular season, you know, just like anything. And he's never going to go on anybody's radar

during the regular season because he reminds me of a more advanced Scottie Pippen offensively to Jordan, where he's like a third or second option to very, very dominant guys. And in the playoffs, he becomes this number one option that no one is prepared for. No one's ever prepared for playoff Jimmy Butler. I told on a scouting report, there will never be a scouting report on what Jimmy does during the regular season.

be a scouting report on what Jimmy does during the regular season. I will go every year, his playoff stats, his playoff... All Synergy reports on Jimmy will be just from the playoffs to prepare for him for the playoffs. Forget his regular season numbers because these numbers do not match the play. It's like

really with Kent Clark and Superman. Two different human beings. Jimmy Butler regular season, top 20. Top 20 regular and Superman. Two different human beings. Jimmy Butler, regular season. Top 20. Top 20, regular season. Playoff?

Playoff, Jimmy Butler, top five. Right. And look, Steph could potentially be back in that, you know, LeBron. There'll be some weird, if LeBron's in the finals, there's going to be some weird, like, why do we have six guys ahead of this dude? We all know the game and how it works all right last two things this dylan brooks story is is weird for a bunch of different reasons like he asked for the attention

he got it and he didn't want it um then we had the weird quote about the team saying under no circumstance as soon as i saw that quote the first time, I was a little dubious of it because I thought that's a pretty buttoned up front office. I don't feel like there's a lot of wild cards there. Why would they say that so specifically? So then it became everybody likes Dylan Brooks in defending him because they were mad at the team. And now there's basically some questioning on where that quote actually came from and who said it and how it was sourced. So I don't know. I thought the whole thing was kind of weird. I want to ask you, because I bet you there's a good story in there. What was your nastiest exit from a team? It was, it was, um, it was Orlando, right? We're having, um, the exit meeting. We're having um the exit meeting we're having an exit meeting and you know i just got

off you know i just got in trouble you know with the locker room stuff so and i got traded to orlando so i'm on my best behavior right you know i'm on my best behavior so i'm not trying to ruffle no feathers here with and you know just watching stan just you know, just watching Stan just, you know, eat up, he just eating up the self-esteem of all the players. And I'm sitting like, how are you guys just letting this, come on, Dwight, just tell him, like, you're the captain, shut the fuck up over there.

Like, just do something because, like, I have the, you know, I got JJ Red Egg, I got Turk, and I'm trying to pep these guys up and Stan is like, yes, what are you doing? How do you have a girlfriend and you play like this? And it's just one of those things like, oh my God. So at the end of the, at the end of the season, and I have an ex-meet in, like I had to,

I had to really just, cause you know, Stan is, he's an amazing person until it's time to go. When it's time to go, he turns into a whole nother, he's an a-hole for real. Like it's like, like he's laughing with you. Hey guys, how you doing Gil? As soon as the horn comes, he pretends he don't even know you anymore. And it just, he just goes into just demon time. He pretends he don't even know you anymore. And it just, he just goes into just demon time. So I have him now in his element, right? And I just been loading up,

just loading up like, like just one liners and stuff. So, so he, you know, so we start talking and I just start just cutting, just cutting deep. But yeah, you're a very great X's and O's coach. Horrible people person. It was just a horrible fucking, I guarantee your neighbors don't like you.

You're just that type of guy where your neighbors don't like you. You probably don't get along with any of your kids because you're just that type of person. And I'm just going, I was like, you know, I'm probably not going to be here next year. After I finished it, I was like, that felt good.

That felt good. And you know, Stan, and the problem with Stan is, you're right. Yeah, you're right. He knows that he has problems. He just don't want to change. So your exit interview, you got to the point where you told Stan Van Gundy his kids probably don't like him. It was one of those, like, you're just a horrible like just people person like how are you this great exes of the like he will draw up like when it comes to plays top three top threes

on getting a open shot you're talking about like last second. You got 0.6 to two seconds on a clock. Besides Phil Jackson, I'm like, uh, Stan, draw this up, right? I trust Stan. Draw this last play up. He's going to get you a play. When it comes to talking to human beings, you do not want him as a therapist. You don't want him as a therapist. is you don't want him as a therapist how impressionable was dwight to you coming into this and then going like wait maybe arenas is right here so me and me and dwight we were on usa basketball um together you know we were adidas guys together so we already like um you know we already had a bond so you so me and him clicked better. And I know with him, it was more, you say something.

You say something. Me and Jermaine Nelson, I have Jason Richardson over there. So I'm cool with the guys because I go fishing there in the summer. So I think it was one of those times where they wanted me to really like challenge Stan, but I wasn't really mentally in that space to really, you know, physically, I'm not who I used to be. So I can't back it up with play. All right. I can't back up my, my barking back with the coach. Like, come on, you can't talk to the teammates like this. Right. You know, you are talking to him. I need him. So you got to stop that shit.

Like, the only time I'm going to get, you know, with the coaching staff is to protect the player. So me and my high school coach, like we had that debate. Look, if I don't yell at him as a player, don't yell at him as a coach, right? Right. But that's how we do it. There's time and places where you talk to players like, you know, this crowd stuff, embarrassing them. Everyone can't take that. You know, I was big on, do not embarrass the player in front of everyone, just like a referee don't, they don't want to be embarrassed in front of the

world. You know? So, you know, when he's yelling at Ryan and, you know, calling, you know, everyone names, like I have to pass these guys a ball. So if they're mentally not there in the game, like you're doing a just justice you're hurting the team you're hurting me as a player because i need these guys so i i really didn't like that part of stan wow okay so i have another then little quick follow because i remember when the deal for you and rashard lewis went through and i was like well yeah i guess, I guess. Like, did you go, yeah, if I'm going to get traded, it's because of these contracts. The contract, you just got John Wall, right?

You know, Ted, you know, Leonis, you know, he was in that pickle, right? What do I do? Like, you know, I think there was a fan vote and the fans said bring him back so he's like oh I gotta bring him back right and you know it was me it was like I think if I mentally was like okay I'm here this is where I want to be Ted with it they would have never traded me because you know I was the heart of the city at that time but but i wasn't mentally there i was doing ted a disjustice you know um my you know me and john wall was you know me and

john wall were tight anything he needed you know i was going to give it to him you know any game but when it came to just the the whole outfit of the i even grew the facial hair out so they couldn't put me on the posters anymore like that that, that's how mentally. So when you see that picture of me with the hair is because I don't want you to put me on the posters. I'm good. I'm done. So when I got traded, it was more of, I get to be myself. I was in Orlando before the trade even, I heard that I was going to get traded. I booked my own, I took a pair of shoes, booked my own flight, and I was in the arena working out in their practice facility before the trade happened.

They were just going to have to kick me out and say, yeah, we didn't pull it out and I was going to have to fly back. I didn't care. I just wanted a fresh start, right? It's just like, I know it was like, no. Hey, that's, look, that's you though. I mean, let's not like, that is not a surprising story. You'd be like, you know, in a way you could spin it positively. That's how committed I was to magic. Right. You're the man. I love this. This was great.

Say hi to Josiah for me and we'll catch up again. All right. Thanks a lot. All right. Thank you. Thank you. I know we went a little longer than I thought, but thanks, dude. I hope you had fun. No problem. Thank you. Bye.

Bye. The Long Road is written by Steve Hyden, who also did the book on Radiohead. We had him on in the past. We're fired up to have him on again. The Long Road is about Pearl Jam, which is not at the same tier. It's a little Jimmy Butler to my Steph Curry as far as bands go. But I remember where I was when 10 came out. I remember being at the CD shop that I worked at in high school and listening to it on repeat over and over and over again. It's the only kind of moment you can have with a band, I think, when you're younger. But that moment was there for me,

even though there were other bands that I liked a little bit more. So Steve, good to see you again, man. Thanks for doing this. Well, thank you for having me. It's always great to be on the show. Okay. Just even though I know you've done other stuff, I love the way you kind of tell the story, which is odd for me. Cause when you sent me the book, I was like, I don't know if I'm going to get into it that much. I don't think I care about Pearl Jam all that much. And then after I got done with it, it took me back. It took me back all these memories and how I used to think about all these different bands and all this great music. then after I got done with it, it took me back. It took me back all these memories and how I used to think about all these different bands

and all this great music. So let's go back to those early days. Eddie Vedder's in San Diego kind of working just at like a music venue. Give me the origin of him getting linked up with the members of Pearl Jam. Well, it's a big part of their origin story. Like in the book, I joke about how

whenever you see a Batman movie, you always have to see Bruce Wayne'sne's parents get killed uh and the the tape story it's it's called the mama son tape it's the bruce wayne's parents getting killed part of the pearl jam story basically uh stone gossard and jeff amitt were in this band called mother lovebone that was uh really positioned to be like the next big thing in rock music in 1990. And then their lead singer, Andrew Wood, dies of a heroin overdose. So they are basically stranded. They feel like their career, their career music is over.

There's a funny Jeff Amitt line where he talks about I forget, I think it's like the Washington Bullets or something. He likens his music career to that team because they just could never get it together. And he felt like that was true for him. But Stone Gossard,

he starts woodshedding all this material that ends up being the big songs, basically on the first Pearl Jam record. And all they need is a lead singer. And they're trying to find someone that they can plug into the band. And they end up hearing about this guy, Eddie Better, who, as you said, was working in San Diego

and was languishing in obscurity down there. They get hooked up with him. They send him these instrumentals. He goes surfing, comes back, and he ends up writing a live, the song Once, which is the first song on 10, and another song called Footsteps. And that's basically the beginning of the band. Like they hear his voice and, you know, the lightning crashes and all the sort of magical

things that you see in music biopics occur. And, you know, from there, they're pretty much off and running. Seattle at the time, you know, it was a very, it's just so weird to go back to remember just kind of how we felt about it all. It's like you were a kid and you go like, oh man, Seattle, like people were going, yeah, I want to go to Seattle now because of the music scene. Um, which sounds kind of crazy, but also not that weird. I mean, maybe his generation did it with San Francisco, right? But Eddie's not a Seattle guy. And it seems like the Seattle people with all the roots and all the different musicians that came out of there, it's kind of like, well, who's this guy? He's not from Seattle. Now he's kind of representing the Seattle sound. It seemed like there was a lot of pushback maybe from him, but then others, whether it was Cornell, were like really supportive of him because he was so talented.

The Seattle thing is really interesting because, like you said, there are other instances of that in music history where all these bands are associated with a particular town in a moment in time. And really, that's something that doesn't happen anymore. Basically, in the post-internet era, it kind of feels like everyone is from nowhere in at least in terms of like indie music or rock music. Um, but yeah, Seattle, I think was a big part of Pearl jam's appeal. And it's interesting with them.

Cause you're right. They weren't in the city looked at as like the standard bears of, of, of the local music scene. In a lot of ways, they were kind of seen as like carpetbaggers. I mean, at least like that's how like Kurt Cobain talked about them,

even though, again, Stone Gossard and Jeff Amitt had this long history of making music in Seattle in the 1980s. But like if you watch the early videos, not just for Pearl Jam,

but like a Temple of the Dog, that whole era, that feeling of community, I think is really put forward. Like the early Pearl Jam, but like a temple of the dog, that whole era, that feeling of community, I think is really put forward. Like, like the early Pearl Jam videos are, are like live performance videos. And I think, you know, I could say this for myself, like part of the appeal of the band was that like, you wanted to be in the audience for, for these shows, you know, like they would show the, like if you watch the video for even flow. You know, like they would show the if you watch the video for Evenflow, for instance, like they show the crowd almost

as much as the band. And this might be hard for people to wrap their heads around now because media is so omnipresent. And if you like an artist, you can go on their Instagram, you can go on YouTube. It's really easy to see your favorite artists now. But back then,

you know, you'd watch the video for Evenflow, and it was like an advertisement for their live show. And the live show being representative of a certain kind of community that, for someone like me, living in the middle of Wisconsin, was so enticing and so different from what was going on in my own backyard so it was about the music but it was also about i think again like this kind of world that was foreign to like a lot of people uh in the middle of the country i'm glad you brought up um jeff and stone in their background because like you described it really well and i want to get to the nirvana piece here in a second but it was this animosity because they're blowing up it's happening so fast right it's all together 10 is a brilliant album start to finish it flows you talking about how the who had influenced eddie vetter when i think about like i'm always surprised like there's not somebody that's

not doing more concept albums you know whether it was me listening to joe's garage because at first like i hated zappa i was like like, this is so weird, so stupid. And then I started understanding what he was doing. And I would still say there's some Zappa that I go, no thanks, not for me. But Zappa at his best, I can't get enough of it. But it felt cool to be a teenager, to be sitting there with the liner notes

and listening to Joe's Garage start to finish, understanding what Tommy was, understanding Quadrophenia. you know, and I know that other people have had concept albums. I don't, you know, whether it's the Smashing Pumpkins deal of, but it's when it's done right, it's great. And 10, was it more, it was more of a concept album than I think we even realized at the time. I was just, I couldn't get enough of it. It felt different, but it was also, you know, depending on your age, I'm like 16, 15 going into 16. Like every year is so important at that time. Cause you feel like, Oh, this is the year I'm like this. And this year I'm like, now I'm understanding this. And now there's this music kind of outlining these, these thoughts and

everything going kind of fast for me of like the things that I like and the things that I don't like. So there's, there's no other band that would, whether it was Nirvana, whether it was Pearl Jam, and then obviously my love of hip hop, but there wasn't anything that was ever going to be as important to me, uh, at a different age as it was at that age. And so as impressed as I was with it all. And as I mentioned, as, as fast as it was happening, there seemed to be, I don't know, was there resentment towards Eddie where it's like, wait, he's the face of all of this.

And so many of these songs were our songs. Well, I, you know, the thing with Pearl jam in terms of like the backlash, and this is one of the things I was really interested in and writing about this band is that Pearl jam was popular in a way that like no rock band now is even close to being like they were a band that could sell a million records in one week you know they were doing

Taylor Swift numbers and I think they achieved a level of ubiquity in the early 90s that not even like a band like Nirvana I think achieved. Nirvana was a big band, and there were a lot of people inspired by Nirvana. But Pearl Jam, as a radio band and as an MTV band, there was almost like a genre created that was based on ripping off Pearl Jam's first record. There's so many bands, like that post-grunge era, where you've got, you know,

First Creed, the Nickelback, and then bands like Fuel and Days of the New. And there's so many other bands like that that we could mention, many of which have been forgotten over time, you know, thankfully. But, you know, they all had huge hits at the time, and they were all kind of based on doing, like pearl jam did on that first record you know especially after pearl

jam kind of backed away from that a little bit on their subsequent work and got a little stranger and a little less commercial uh so not only do you have these like really popular pearl jam songs but you have so many bands that sound like that and it just creates a level of exposure where at some point people are just like enough like enough like grumbly lead singers enough like people who act like they don't want to be famous you know it almost became a cliche like super quickly and for reasons that weren't entirely their fault or even like mostly their fault all right there's a million things i i can't just i could do 30 minutes maybe just on everything you were talking about because the yarling eddie vetter thing inspired so many terrible singers to think they could be singers that i don't know that we'll ever see another

moment like that in the history of music like Like the number of the guys were like, if I could just impersonate that, like maybe I can pull this off. And I'm not even talking about guys that got record deals. I'm talking about like people I knew. I got this. Exactly. And it's like,

look, I like Nirvana more. And it may have only been because the first time i heard teen spirit i went okay like what is this right it was it was you know it made me think of like the first time my dad told me walking around the the village and hearing about this band led zeppelin and they're just walking in off the street to go see led zeppelin and being like are you fucking kidding? And I was in the back of a car. Somebody was driving. It came on.

I had to have it. I ordered it the next day. The guy made fun of me at the record store because it was a naked kid in a pool. He was like, you like this stuff? And I was like, I can't believe what I heard. And then I thought they were a little weirder, maybe a little edgier.

But maybe I give Nirvana credit retroactively for not having the later stage of their career where their songs weren't going to be as good or their songs weren't going to be as important to me as pearl jam you know like in a weird way how we judge bands the longer your window could go which should speak to your success can be held against you, which doesn't make any sense. Yeah, it's an interesting thing. I mean, and I'm trying to think of like a good sports analogy with this, because in sports, if an athlete puts together a long career, I mean, that is a good thing. I mean, we judge athletes by do you win a championship?

Do you win multiple championships? Like putting together a resume is really important in music. However, having a long career can hurt your credibility a little bit because, you know, the thing about Kurt Cobain is that he will always be 27 years old. You know, he's always going to be this really good looking,

cool, mysterious figure who only put out classic albums. There's not a lot of blemishes on his record and there never will be. He's always going to be the most iconic person of that time. And I have a similar thing to you. I remember the first time I saw the video for Smells Like Teen Spirit. It's like a lightning bolt moment for people our age. It's the equivalent of baby boomers when they talk about seeing the Beatles on Ed Sullivan. That's our Ed Sullivan moment hearing Smells Like Teen Spirit for the first time. And Pearl Jam doesn't have that. They just don't. They've had a longer career. Even 10 was a record.

It blew up relatively early in their life. I mean, they'd only been a band for a couple of years by the time that album was really big. But that album had like a relatively slow build. Like it came out 91 about a month before Nevermind did. But it didn't really blow up until about a year later. Like 92 was when... That summer, 92 and a 93. Right. That was like Pearl Jam mania.

And again, going back to what I was saying before, I mean, there was less media back then, but the media that was around, I think, was more impactful. Like the fact that the Jeremy video was on MTV all the time. I don't think you can approximate that kind of impact now, just in the more diffuse media that we have now. It's like with MTV, if you were a kid and you were watching that all the time, like you could not avoid that, you know, and it's implanted in your brain, whether you like Pearl jam or not, you know,

and like nowadays it's so easy to avoid stuff you don't like, you know, but back then it'd be like, well, I don't like this Jeremy video, but there's nothing else to watch. So I'll just wait four minutes until this is over. And then maybe something else will come on that I like,

you know, people don't need to do that anymore. You don't need to sit through things you don't like anymore. Uh, so it just changes. I think the level of kind of impact that things like that have. Why was Cobain so lame about it? Cause you know,

at the time I probably, cause I liked Nirvana would be like, yeah, good for him. Like Pearl Jam 10 is good, but they're not they're not as cool as nirvana is where you know look kurt cobain was dealing with clearly a lot of stuff but it was also looking back on it kind of dickheadish of him to say some of the stuff he said about those guys like it just wasn't cool especially when as you point out jeff and stoner like, dude, are you serious? Like we've been we've already been doing this in this town and you run the town now.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a combination of things. I think, you know, there was a legitimate. Antipathy that he had towards their music, he just wasn't a fan of what they were doing. And, you know, Pearl Jam, you know, to compare them again to Nirvana, like you were saying earlier, Nirvana was a little weirder, a little edgier, a little more punk rock, whereas Pearl Jam essentially is like a 70s rock band in a 90s context. They look like The Who or Aerosmith or Led Zeppelin. They kind of are structured that way. You've got the cool lead singer, you have the hot shot guitar player, you know, all the sort of conventions

of like classic rocker and Pearl Jam. So like if you are a punk rock person who feels like I have to be against that kind of thing, like Pearl Jam was an easy target. I think some of it too was that Pearl Jam quickly became more successful than Nirvana, you know? So there was probably a little bit of, you know, like rivalry thing going on. There's also like another thing where more successful than Nirvana. So there was probably a little bit of rivalry

thing going on. There's also another thing where this is a thing that I don't think exists anymore, but it was true back then that Jeff Amitt in particular, I think Cobain had a problem

with Amitt because Amitt was a jock, basically. He liked to play basketball he was this athletic guy and back then I think there was more of a separation between the jocks and like the artistic people like you couldn't be both you had to choose a side which is so dumb now I mean I don't think that exists these days. I don't get that sense. But back then, I think that was more of a thing. Jeff Amitt was like this jock guy in the local scene, and I think that just kind of triggered something in Cobain that he didn't like.

So I think that was part of it. I think it had more to do with Amitt, really, than it had to do with Eddie Vedder. Those two guys are kind of put against each other, but it seems like better and cobain got along pretty well right i think it's pretty clear what eddie better thinks of kurt cobain like with great reverence oh yeah yeah it's all one way like yeah he would never diss cobain it was always cobain trashing pearl jam and interviews okay i like what you talked about though like just understanding I mean whether it's a younger age you can be like all right

we're all impressionable but look it even happens when you're older I don't know if it ever truly goes away but like deciding on what's cool and what isn't so if I was like okay I really like Nirvana because I think they're the coolest I'm like look I got to admit I love Pearl Jam because well I'm going back to like my teenage self where i was like i thought pro jam was a little too poppy a little too polished and then it also becomes like who likes them versus who likes the other bands right so then i would be like i don't know but i just 10 was undeniable it was this awesome up and down musical journey the whole thing hit after hit after hit the way it closes like it was a if you it was a lineup in baseball you'd be like that's the best lineup not because of the talent but like how it complements each other too

so there was that uh and then there's stone temple pilots which you get into in the book because speaking of like i remember when purple came out and the guy who i thought was a loser bought the cd and made us listen to it in the car and i was like these guys suck i went back and listened by the way after reading the book as i was reading the book i would go back and listen to all of these albums it was a lot of fun so thanks for that i'm listening to purple and i'm like this is a good album it's good like if there's some real highs here and maybe they try some other weird shit but so does everybody else i mean hell we both love radiohead and we give them a pass for some of the stuff they try to pull off so right i'm listening to stone temple pilots and i'm going i fell for the classic like it just wasn't if if you were

the guy that likes stone temple pilots the most out of all these groups of out of all the options back then then we would be like what's wrong with that guy like he's a stone temple pilots guy like pearl jam was okay nirvana was okay sound Soundgarden, I think, was okay. But you couldn't have Stone Temple Pilots first, which seems unfair. But I'm like, wait, are they just ripping off Pearl Jam? What are they doing? Again, I go back and listen to this album that's almost 30 years old. I was like, this is a good album. And yet their lead singer, Scott, is no longer with us. Really, it felt like he had the worst time out of all of these guys trying to figure out like where he fit in. Yeah. You know, like I was really interested in writing about Stone Temple Pilots in this book because they were, like you say, dismissed as a Pearl Jam ripoff band.

And you have this dynamic between Pearl Jam and STP, which is similar to the dynamic between Nirvana and Pearl Jam, where Nirvana is slagging Pearl Jam for being this sort of inauthentic band. And then STP is being slagged as being inauthentic version in comparison to Pearl Jam. And Pearl Jam did not throw them a lifeline, by the way. There's an interview in Rolling Stone where STP comes up and Eddie Vedder essentially says that these guys are jacking what we do. And I think really with the STP thing, it really comes down to that song plush from the first record core. Like if you listen to that song, I think that is the song that sounds the most like Pearl Jam. And if you watch the video and I go in depth in this in the book, I'm going like

super analytical with music videos. But the same guy who directed the first two Pearl Jam videos directed the first two Stone Temple Pilots videos and in the video for Plush, the way his camera is positioned, it's like slightly above Scott Weiland's head and it emphasizes his cheekbones in a way that makes him look more like Eddie better than he really does and you just get the impression watching that video that like okay they're trying to make this band the most Pearl Jam like substitute that you can have and also you know like Pearl Jam like this was by the time STP got rolling like 10 had Pearl Jam, like this was by the time STP got rolling, like 10 had finally started to peter out.

So there weren't any new Pearl Jam videos on MTV. STP seemed like they were sort of like filling a void at that time. But like, you know, they were recording that record at the time that 10 came out. There's no way they could have ripped off Pearl Jam because it wouldn't have been on their radar yet. But because of the timing issue early on, it really became this sort of unfortunate thing that they could not shake afterward, even as their records, I think, got a lot different

from what Pearl Jam was doing. STP, if you listen to Purple or Tiny Music, there's sort of like a David Bowie Beatles thing going on that like is totally unlike anything Pearl jam does. Uh, but yeah,

it really changed the way that Ben was talked about. And it is unfortunate with Scott Wiley because, you know, people would talk about him being a poser all the time. And he was like a legitimately tortured guy. I mean, if you look at the end of his life, you know, he died by himself on a tour bus, you know, in the parking lot of the mall of America,

you know, a horrible way to die, you know, but in a way it's like, okay, if you thought this guy was a poser, you know, look at how he ended up. I mean, he clearly was not pretending to be something that he wasn't in his records. Yeah, going back and listening to Purple, although it's not like it's the first time I've gone back and listened to it. At moments, it's harder, heavier than anything Pearl Jam would be regularly doing back then, too. Right. But they just kind of drafted into that uncool space because of marketing, because of just the way we are, you know, the way we consume things where it's like, well, I can't like this and then also like this. And then if I don't like this, I have to be offended that this exists because it's not this. And I mean, look, welcome to media.

Welcome to anything that's being consumed by anybody, whether it's books. It's not even that clothing and on and on and on. All right. So I remember the third album with Pearl Jam where I was like, oh, wait, there's like something happening here, which, you know, that's why I always kind of make the 311 joke. Like, at least I knew every time I was like, I know exactly what I'm getting. Right. But that's not what we always want either so uh i know no code came out and i was still in college and my roommate loved him still so i didn't have to buy it i bought yield i was kind of like you know what i didn't buy no code

because blasco had it so i'll buy no code or I'll buy Yield a 98 Yield is awesome Yield is an awesome CD and yet at that point they are transitioning away from whatever they were at the beginning of the decade which is not unique to them

but their second act is strange in that it's like wait what's the last Pearl Jam song what's the last like how often are you going back to any of the CDs after maybe the third one? Or sometimes even for some people, the second one. It's both a compliment and then also like a legitimate question about who they are over these 30 years.

Yeah. You know, Yield is an interesting record because, and it sounds like you had a similar experience. You know, because like this book, it's really written from my perspective and my perceptions of it. It's not a biography. It's sort of like a work of music criticism. It works, Steve. It's really good. A lot of personal stuff.

But Yield was the last Pearl Jam record that I bought when it came out at the time. After that, I checked out for a while and I ended up coming back to them in my 30s when I started listening to a lot of the bootlegs and stuff. But there was a feeling with Pearl Jam, I think in the 90s, like in 98, 99, that maybe they're finished. Because that seven-year span

from 91 when 10 comes out to 98, it was definitely a big change in my life. Cause I went from being 14 to 21, but it was also just a huge change in culture. You know, uh, music was totally different. Just pop culture was totally different. You basically went from like alternative rock to new metal and boy bands. It was like night and day. And it did seem like, okay, how is this band going to make it?

It just seemed like the music that they were making was totally out of fashion by then. And really for me, I feel like the more interesting part of their story comes after that moment and how they were able to reinvent themselves. I think as a live band, first and foremost, that the focus was going to be less on records and more on playing adventurous live shows. Like never repeat a set list, play for a long time and just be super reliable in a way that they weren't in the 90s in part because of like the Ticketmaster thing for instance that made it really difficult to see Pearl Jam in the mid-90s they didn't play very much and when they did they played at these sort of fly-by-night venues like the only places that were not Ticketmaster affiliated like I didn't see Pearl

Jam in person until 98. Just because again, it was hard to see them. And then in the 2000s and beyond, they become the band, almost like what Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers used to be. Like they're going to be in your town, you know, every other year, at least. I mean, not lately because of COVID and all that,

but like in the 2000, 2010s, it'd be like, we're going to be in your town. It's going to be a phenomenal show. And we're just going to be the best live band you've ever seen. It seems like that's their identity now. And it's been a really fascinating career arc. You know, like they went from being this radio band to being a live band.

And I think that's what has enabled them to survive. If they had been trying to make 10 over and over again, I think they would have been finished long ago. I mean, I'll pose this question to you. I think it's interesting because I know you're a Radiohead fan, comparing Radiohead and Pearl Jam

because Radiohead, one thing that they were able to do that Pearl Jam wasn't was have a record like In Rainbows. That's a beloved album. A lot lot of people that's their favorite radiohead record and it's like outside of the 90s you know so like that record and like kid a and stuff it made it ensured that they were not going to just be a 90s band and like pearl jam in terms of albums wasn't really able to do that in the same way

i just can't compare anyone to Radiohead. I just can't. No, I mean, I'm serious about it. You know, I saw the smile in LA at the end of the year last year, which I know it's not, you know, member for member the same thing. I would say that show at its highs was everything I love about Tom York and what they were doing. At its lows, I felt like it would kind of, I was like, I don't

know that I'm ready for this. So that would separate the smile from radio. Radio could do pretty much anything. And I'm going to find something that they're doing with sound that's going to be appealing to me. So it can be defending the thing you like, but I legitimately believe that there's such geniuses at creating new sounds as simple as that sounds and making it work in a way that feels like there's a melody even when the melody isn't obvious right or how they change it within the song um most bands almost very few bands can continue to do that and pearl jam didn't even seem interested so i what i like about the pearl jam story is that they went cliche rock star where eddie vetter gets his gets his wish and

then he kind of hates it and i think he legitimately hated it at times and i think at other times it was maybe you know part of the deal and yet they were making great music the music is not to the same standard. To me, they couldn't hang with a group like Radiohead. But they appreciated who they were later on, which balanced the lack of creative growth. I think they appreciate their thing. Eddie Vedder seems like a good dude. Right.

Just breathe. The point that you make about the song, Just Breathe, is somebody going like, hey, you know what? I'm different in life. I'm not going to have the same perspectives. I'm not going to have this angst. You know, I think that's another reason why, like when we're younger, we relate to these bands so much because it's like, man, that guy's saying he's pissed off about it, too. And then it's like, oh, 20 years later, like, hey, you got over some stuff like it's not the same. It doesn't have the same kind of appeal. So despite both bands having a really long, long run, I think they're both appreciated for two entirely different things, at least for me. Yeah. I mean, I think I mean, I think with Radiohead is that they're sort of a band name only at this point. Like they haven't done anything in a while. And now you have Tom York and Shining Green greenwood doing their own thing and it's it's its own thing but it's like pretty radiohead like it is i always wonder like are they gonna even do anything i i don't think they would ever say we're broken up but i also wouldn't be shocked

that they never made another record you know you don't know but if they did make another record and this is a difference i think with pearl jam is that fans would expect that it would be great and maybe even their best record like there's an expectation with radiohead that the new album could be one of their best and most bands of their you know status or how long they've been around like that's a pretty rare thing you know usually you don't expect a band in their 50s to still be making great music with with pearl jam however again i do go back to the live band thing i think they are one of the great american live bands of all time especially on the arena level and there is a sense of how they always bring it that feels like a core part of their legacy, you know, that they are a band. I mean, they get compared to the Grateful Dead. They're not really anything like the dead musically, but there's a similar ethos there of we're performing musicians and we do a unique show every time and it's going to be great for people. show every time and it's going to be great for people.

Just circling back to what you were saying before about Eddie Vedder, how he seems now. There is a sort of joy to Eddie Vedder in middle age that he did not have as a younger man. And my theory about that is that when Eddie Vedder was in his 20s, he wanted to be a musician in his 50s. I think he always wanted to be like Neil Young or Joe Strummer or Pete Townsend. He wanted to be like one of those guys who had been around for a long time, like a veteran. And when he was a young, hot rock star who didn't have that kind of experience, I think he was miserable at that.

But now he is a guy in his 50ies who's been around a long time. And it just feels like he has a level of comfortability with himself now because of that. That's me psychoanalyzing Eddie better. That's my theory on him. But I think that, I think that that holds a lot of water. I really enjoyed the book again.

It's out now. The paperback be out later this week. There's some good Springsteen stuff in there as well, so there's a lot more in here that wouldn't even come close to covering. Thanks as always. Thanks for the work on this and good to catch up. Stephen Hyden. Thank you, Ryan.

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Kyle Cerruti, what's up? Let's get right to it. Life advice, rr at gmail.com. Okay, this one is titled, Am I the P-Word? I don't know why I'm not going to say it right now. I don't know. I'm not going to say it. I'm going to get warmed up.

Is that okay with everybody? A little too early for that. Yeah. I don't know. For the record, I'd be fine if you said it, but yeah, I get it. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe I am the P-Word for not saying the P-Word right now because it's not like I'm afraid to swear at times, although I'm trying to dial it back on bills. I don't know. Maybe I am the P word for not saying the P word right now. Because it's not like I'm afraid to swear at times.

Although I'm trying to dial it back on Bills. I don't know what's going on. Maybe I'm a little delirious after 20 hours. It's that. That one Sunday, I was swearing like crazy because it was late Sunday. I'd watched 20 plus hours of basketball. Anyway, here we go. All right, long time listener, big fan. Quick thank you for helping with the bet. Took Devin Witherspoon to go to the top of the draft.

Plus 1,100. Whoa. Only reason he was even on my radar was the draft pod with McShay and Daniel Jeremiah. So shout out to the help. 63235. Decent sized guy. Mid-20s. Living in Chicago.

Grew up in Naperville. Suburb outside of the city. I know Rosillo's given us a shout out in the past in this pod. Yes, I have. Shout out to Naperville, a suburb outside of the city. I know Priscilla's given us a shout out in the past in this pod. Yes, I have. Shout out to Naperville. I give my current location because I think it's relevant. The other day, I went to an overpriced latte to get an overpriced latte down the street as I was walking out of the coffee shop. There were some people with backpacks on walking past and ahead of me. I live in an area of the city with a few city colleges around. So I figured they're all just college kids going to class or what have you. Someone walking the side of the group turns around and looks in my direction. And I thought he was looking past me, but I was wrong. I get ahead of him as he stops. And then all of a sudden he comes up from my side and smacks the coffee out of my hand. I was shocked, but then saw that the coffee hadn't really spilled. So I reached down to grab it and then he kicks it and goes,

and it goes all over the sidewalk. Apologies for the language coming up. But this is what he said. This is what was said. I look at him and incredulously and say, what the fuck is your problem? That's all right. No problem.

I messed up. Reasonable. Yeah. He says, fuck you and your coffee. This guy hates a grounded bean. Huh? I go on it again with what the fuck is your problem his response fuck you and your coffee i saw what you were gonna do

i knew it get the fuck out of here okay you know what we're just reading the script though so i'm making up for the not swearing i was so shocked and confused by what was going on i asked him what the hell he's talking about he just keeps keeps saying he knew what I was going to do, which makes no sense. I've never seen this guy before in my life. I start sizing this guy up. He's a few inches shorter, clearly. He isn't a college student. He just had a backpack on. I'm pretty upset. So I started taking a step towards him and he starts to reach for his bag. At that point, I remember this is Chicago, not the suburbs I grew up in. So I backed down and started walking home. I'll be honest, towards him and he starts to reach for his bag. At that point, I remember this is Chicago, not the suburbs I grew up in. So I backed down and started walking home. I'll be honest.

I feel like I kind of wimped out here. He was definitely crazy and maybe high on something. I see a lot of crackheads in the city and he didn't really fit that description, which threw me off. I don't know. I feel like I should have at least gone back to the shop to ask for another coffee to let them know what happened in case his plan is just to hang outside all afternoon and smack coffees down like dikembe in the 90s should i try to strong arm this weirdo or i do the right thing and back down and uh back down in my eyes pretty quickly thanks for reading guys all right um pretty standard pretty standard on this one What's our rule about everybody being a tough guy in everybody else's situation? We don't do that here. I think if you tell that story, there's people who are like, no way, bro.

Fucking smash that guy. You don't know. The shock of a rando who you don't know slapping down your coffee, then kicking it out, going immediately into Chuck Norris. You know, most of us are not built that way. So I will tell you, don't feel like the P word. You're totally thrown off. All right. Now, if this is a long running problem where you think you feel like you have other men

dominating you, then maybe there's something else to address. But it's 6-3-2-35. You know, I don't know what your deal is, right? There's a lot of size there. Maybe you never had to use it. So you're not really sure. Maybe deep down, you're kind of questioning yourself. You're wondering, how would this go?

How would this go? Maybe you need that answer. We're not endorsing it, but you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, everybody's kind of got their different thing here. I think it's just so shocking. And then when you add in the fact that he didn't fit the description, which I'm sure we're going to get one email saying, like, you know, I think you guys are a little insensitive crackheads. I sorry. He didn't even describe him, though.

He said he thought he might have been a student because I could also like there's been a couple of times like late little fracas 7-Eleven guys going in for darts. been a couple times like late little fracas 7-11 guys going in for darts somebody starts giving you a hard time and you're like i don't even want to physically put my hands on this person like i don't want the jacket shit getting on my stuff like you know like i'm not dealing with this you know look it's just the reality of the situation like i don't want to get into some sort of physical altercation with him i wonder if this is all part of a setup i don't know if this guy's like is this his routine and he does something and he's hoping and maybe he picked you because you are big. And then it's some other play where he thinks he's going to then file assault charges on

you for it. And then this is his deal. Maybe this is his whole scam. So I have, I think you did the right thing. I wouldn't tell too many people about the story because you're just going to get a ton of dudes telling you that all the moves that they would have done I would have fainted with

the right hook but then spinning back fist and then I would have done this then I would have watched Roadhouse and jerked off to it and then I would have gone back outside you know so like I don't have it take it easy on yourself the only you know other thing where i can make it worse is

like is this a continuing pattern where you feel like you get taken my guess is at 6 3 2 35 this probably doesn't happen to you very often chances are you've probably been in a fight uh your mid 20s you're probably a little bit more geared up to want to fight um even though the fighting saws everything shirt is really funny almost ordered one didn't because i'm just not tough enough to even wear it uh i i like what you did here take it easy on yourself but don't tell a ton of people about it because they're just going to be annoying uh because that's what men do they all are like action heroes in their own version of events of the thing that you didn't do right yeah i mean i think my my policy would be um kyle you would smoke this fool no no if there's even a hint of a weapon i'm out you know what i mean those yeah you know those even though you're

a knife guy aren't you yeah but i don't want to be i don't want to be a knife guy i just you gotta have it you know i mean i and so if there's reaching for a bag i don't think there's any problem you know uh and sometimes the knife is just a deterrent i'm not one of those guys who wears and i don't even wear it all the time no i don't like wear it with that you know a lot of a lot of the white dudes at poughkeepsie can we get an can we get just an idea of like how often you were carrying a knife while you were in new york uh i think everywhere i was allowed in with um but i mean but i never like it's not like a flash it just i feel better with it uh but it wasn't like't like a lot of the white dudes at Poughkeepsie will have the clip on the outside of their stupid fucking cargo shorts or something. So it's like, well, that guy's got a knife because you can just see the little clip of it.

So that's that's a deterrent for me. I'm like, I'm not that guy can call me whatever he wants. I'm not really interested in seeing if you know how fast he can pull that out because he's got to do it. He's got it clipped. But I guess my point is like I I go to 7-eleven a lot there's one right by my house um and and i'm on foot a lot i don't like to drive if i uh if i if there's a chance i might be stopping in for a reeb somewhere so i'm on foot a lot and and 7-eleven a lot of dudes hanging outside don't really have a ton to do they're there a lot they like to say stuff they like to ask for stuff uh and sometimes they get

pretty fucking aggressive and um you know i i'm usually like like what you said it's like i'm like this guy's crazy he stinks uh i don't want to touch him whatever i'm gonna keep moving but it's still in my head as i'm walking like god one of these days i'm really just not gonna take this shit anymore so it's not it's not crazy that you have the thought like should i have done something but it's good that you did it like i deal with that probably once twice a week where i'm like this motherfucker i know he's gonna say something hey dude you don't got anything once twice a week well i go to 7-eleven a lot so the guy that much is 7-eleven he's different guys oh dude it's like i don't know oh yeah cycle of them different guys they're like taking shifts it's like rarely do i see the same dude uh but i

guess my point is and i'm walking in holly i walk from my place in hollywood to the frolic room that's like a war zone down you know down hollywood and vine it's fucking crazy there kyle's in the streets man i'm just telling you like people say stuff but i you keep walking and it's not crazy in your head to be like god should i've done something the answer is no you shouldn't have done anything but when somebody talks to you in a crazy manner it's not crazy in your head to be like god should i've done something the answer is no you shouldn't have done anything but when somebody talks to you in a crazy manner it's not crazy for you to be like you know am i respecting myself enough today you are it's good don't put your hands on the crazy guy if you can help him look i didn't i didn't get into a fight at a pickup basketball game 21 years ago and it still bothers me because i was like you should

have just cracked that fucking guy but i couldn't i just started a new job i didn't have any insurance i also wasn't sure how i was going to go like i wasn't 100 sure i was going to win so i was like i don't want to lose this and i'm cooking right now so i want to keep playing hoops keep the flow of the game going right and the guys it's you know you just get i've mentioned this one like he just got super pissed and i was being a little bitchy too you know i wasn't i wasn't without blame but then he went to me and i was just like all right and then you know i guys at work were kind of looking at me differently because i think they thought i would have and i just was like i want to keep playing man i don't really want to get a fight and uh he was like well i've about fucking had it with you next time we're going and we didn't and

uh it's 21 years ago and I still think about it sometimes. So I don't know. That's my problem. Why did I just say that out loud? So Rudy, go ahead. Yeah. I mean, I don't have a ton of experience with being berated at, you know, seven 11s or coffee shops, but I will say made much.

Yeah. I mean, listen, sorry. This is what it is, but that was really harsh. I was just trying to make a joke, and then it came out. I don't know. Maybe I'm being more aggressive now that I'm thinking about this. The fight got you. Yeah, I apologize to Saruti.

That wasn't a good joke. No, it's fine. It's fine. I'm also a non-fighter, really, mostly because of my physique. I mean, I'm not big, and I don't lift. So I just kind of know how it's going to end in that situation. But is it really worth it? The good thing is you were alone, right?

So nobody really saw this. It's not like you were with a right? So nobody really saw this. It's not like you were with a girl, you weren't with a buddy that probably would have made it worse. Cause then you would have maybe tried to do something at the end of the day. I know coffees are like five, six bucks. Like it sucks.

But is that worth like the guy pulls a knife out on you or even worse? Like, I don't, I just, I don't see the, I know it's annoying. Cause you'd be like, yeah,

fuck this guy. I'm just going to clock him in the face, but you never know. Like maybe this guy is like an actual fighter or he's just a total i mean he has to be a total wild card considering the fact that he just spiked your coffee for no reason i just don't think you fuck with that guy i just kind of i'm like hey like you're just gonna have to just this is you take the l on this one i don't know what to say and again nobody saw it so you don't look like a bitch or you don't like the p word like the guy said like it's not like you know your girlfriend was there or whatever and

now like she's gonna remember she's gonna tell her friends like nobody really knows what happened so I kind of think you made the right decision because yeah is there a chance that you could just beat this guy's ass and felt better sure but is there also a chance you could have like gotten stabbed yeah so maybe maybe I don't know I would just I would proceed with caution I think

you did the right thing yeah the other part of this too man let's not forget uh the backpack that the guy went for the backpack so whatever you know right another great point by saruti is that uh you know if it had happened with a female friend or a woman a bunch of your buddies or whatever but he probably wouldn't have done it. One, you don't understand his intent. He went to grab for a bag. He knocked

over a coffee. It's really not that big of a deal. Nobody else has to know. You don't have to fight every person that fucks with you. Think about this. Today, you're a little bummed out because you're like, did I pee out here, man? Did I pee out

a bit? That's going to mess with you. The gender You're like, did I pee out here, man? Did I pee out of it? So that's going to mess with you. You know, the gender part of this is that, you know, as men, you want to know that you're going to be able to defend yourself in a situation like this. But you didn't even attempt to defend yourself. Right. So you're out of coffee. You're questioning yourself a little bit. The other alternative is when you get shot or stabbed um this guy's actually a good fighter

and this is why he's doing all this stuff so now he you know it's like when your girlfriend cheats on you and you go to beat up the guy and then he kicks your ass you're like great my girlfriend cheated on me and i got my ass kicked in the guy's driveway. Not the best day. That would be just a story. You got at least. You at least have to try. The driveway was specific. What'd you do this week?

Well, yeah, look, I think you should. You should feel good about yourself. You did the adult feel good about yourself you did the adult thing yeah you did the adult thing that's a great uh like magnet you don't have to fight anyone that fucks with you i like that sruti it's a good succinct it makes a lot of sense and it's a good thing it's like a daily affirmation some people count to 10 you should just say you don't have to fight everybody that fucks with you i like it print the shirts idaho i saw stanford steve sent me a picture of what looked like freshman football saruti

yesterday uh that guy would have done something that guy would have done something fresh wait wait out of the blue he just texted you i don't know why he did but he just said it to me i i don't think he i don't think i knew i don't think he knew that i knew it was you and i just texted was like it looks like that kid's about to call me a pussy that's actually what i said to him and he was like nah saruti gets all the girls or something i was like yeah i know it's saruti but uh yeah you just look like you wanted trouble so maybe that guy would have done something no i think when i well yeah he would he would have said something i don't know if he would have done something sure sure, sure. He looked like he would have done something. He would have definitely used the P word. I'll tell you that right now.

Sanford Steve loves that picture for some reason, but for me, when I was a freshman in football, I'm wearing these giant shoulder pads, and I was probably like 5'2 at the time, 1'10 dripping wet. But I would give it to you. I would say something. It was probably a terrible decision.

I've learned since then, but for some reason, Stanford Steve, I think he posted that on Instagram when I left ESPN. That was like the goodbye post for me. Yeah, is he just saying that? Is that like he keeps that in his like, like keeping like pictures of your grandkids in your pocket, just ready to whip them out whenever the time is right. I don't know why he sent me that,

but I'm so glad he did. Thanks, man. You played football, Saruti. You went out there, you strapped on the pads so i'm serious you know what i mean the guy that's got you're weighing 110 going i'm playing football that means you got a little wiring in you that i like i look back at that and i go how did that make any sense like well i didn't play soccer i love soccer now for some reason i played tackle football i played defensive back i was actually decent i was a good ball hawk but obviously i couldn't tackle anybody because i was tiny but you played four years right i did yeah yeah see yeah did you wear

a letterman jacket i i'd have my letterman jacket actually somewhere around here i actually have my jersey right next to me because i just cleaned out my parents house um but nice yeah i was kind of like a shithead high school football player but again i wasn't i wasn't good i just was like i was i was the kid that was better like in flag football i like the passing camp leagues because i just didn't have to hit anybody and i was like good at catching and running yeah but you're out there i mean you got guys blasting you the guys are coming around blocking you probably some tight ends that murdered you some running backs that won the war at the point of attack but You played four years. You got the

jacket. You're probably having a couple beers in the woods. I made out with Steve Cerruti last night. Oh my God, he's the hottest senior. It was a big deal. You're a lot cooler than I was in high school. I love it. I love all that stuff. I'd wear your jersey to an event.

Did you guys have last names? Were you that kind of school or were you just I love it. I love all that stuff. I'd wear your jersey to an event. I have. Did you guys have last names? Were you that kind of school or were you just, it's all about the name on the front? Oh, we had last names. We had last names. Oh, yeah. We played in some state. I mean, we played against Aaron Hernandez in high school. Connecticut's a sneaky

decent football state. You would think it's terrible because it's so small. Tabucky Jones. I think Will Levis is from Connecticut. I didn't even know's terrible because it's so small. Tabucky Jones. Tabucky Jones, yep. I think Will Levis is from Connecticut. I didn't even know that until recently he's from Connecticut, so there you go. All right, all good stuff here. We have a time zone one on Idaho.

Does anyone care? I do not care at all. I think that, yeah, I think the decision's done. People love the time zone content. Yeah, they do. My God. Whatever. Let's get a little cleanup, yeah, I think the decision's done. People love the time zone content. Yeah, they do. My God. Whatever. Let's get a little cleanup, though, in case anybody's visiting Idaho this summer.

First off, Mountain Time Zone is the absolute best for watching sports. NFL Sunday started at 11. EPL morning, 637. You must have a family, dude. That's right. Yeah. There's plenty of dudes who don't want to be up at 630. NBA playoffs getting over around 11 at the latest perfection.

Secondly, most importantly, you're right. Idaho time zones are funky and absolutely fucked. Good. I currently live in Boise and went to school up in northern Idaho. Same state, two different time zones. Northern Idaho, specific time, but the climate is more suitable for mountain times because we are so north. Summers are amazing. Winters are brutal.

But games are on earlier in the day, so we always had an excuse to start drinking. There you go. Anyway, long story short, I've lived in the two best time zones for watching sports, and mountain time is by far the best. Look, I agree. Other than that EPL note there, I think that's a little early there.

I think mountain time zone is the call. I really do think it is for the United States. South of France. I've got guys DMing me right now going, this is a little more challenging. Maybe not in the summer. Okay. Okay, this one's a little quicker,

but I love it. I work in an accounting firm in the Midwest. We have a new intern, or we had a new intern who joined our team that has serious Dirk Diggler energy.

That was a great laugh. I'm not sure if I should bring it up or if he would even understand the reference he wears big 70 shades he'll have his shirt with like three of the top buttons on button he wears a big gold chain to me the look he's going for is so yeah there you go it's so clearly cribbed from boogie nights that it can't be an accident my fear is that if i bring it up to him that he looks like Dirk Diggler and he has no idea what I'm talking about, I'll then have to explain Boogie Nights to him. And out of context, I think it would be awkward in a work setting. Then I'm the weirdo that thinks an

intern looks like a porn star. Well, not a real porn star though. An actor playing a porn star. And it's also fucking Mark Wahlberg kid. You could do a lot worse. My question is, should I bring it up and see if he's pumped because that's the style he's been going for? Or should I leave it and just laugh about it with my friends that have seen Boogie Nights? I would say don't say anything because you don't want to ruin it. Right? I think the instincts of the emailer here kyle are really good like that's one of those things about when you get old you're like are you fucking serious you haven't seen the firm like what's wrong with you like i'll be like i'm just four you know like well

you didn't you didn't no one gave you a list at age 10 you didn't get on it right like think about all the movies that came out when you were four you me anyone listening to this right now like have you gone back and done the work of course not all right not so rudy not so rudy fucking hates movies hates going backwards guy doesn't go backwards it's like dune doesn't really hold up the new one incredible right so although he's a huge chalamet guy so so he would never do that. He would never do that to Timothy. So, I wouldn't say anything in fear of risk losing this amazing entertainment. Like, where are we? May 4th?

Intern? I can't wait to see where this goes because there's a good chance that he hasn't seen it. What if he has and goes, you're wrong and points out all the intricate differences yeah yeah cold chain he's like dude this is a rope dude not a link uh i mean do you have anything on this do you think the kids going for that look I mean that would be pretty crazy 20 plus years later right Boogie Nights is it's an odd choice it's an odd it's

an odd choice of like emulating um I 98 I mean it's just tough when it's like I think if you're gonna say something you should say like, you look like Mark Wahlberg in boogie nights. Maybe. I mean, basically like, cause if you have to explain it, like there's all,

you know, I know it's just dudes talking here. It's just dudes being dudes, but there is like an HR aspect to it. Right. It's like, well, basically the,

the, the premise is blah, blah, blah. It's like, uh, I could see why, like in this day and age,

it might be better to just like, not say Dirk Diggler. And I'd say say nothing. I think inside jokes are great. And it's one of my favorite things. Hope to be a part of one someday. And I think I think that's fine. You should keep keep them when you got them as long as it doesn't get like too mean. But yeah, I wouldn't be like chomping at the bit to be like, hey, hey dude you know what you look like you look like blah blah blah

because he might not like that I worked with one dude at the ringer who had like an issue with me wearing like black and blue or something together and he was like well interesting outfit and I just fucking flamed him and I was like I never looked at him the same I never looked at him that guy's gone

but but I don't even know if I'll know who it. That guy's gone. Wait, can we... I don't even know if I'll know who it was because I wasn't up there at the time. Do I not like this person? Do I even know who this person is? I'm not sure.

They might have been on your radar. Yeah, I think so. I don't know. I just... So they just said straight up to you one day... They were like, well, that's a choice. They were like, that's a choice or something like that. And I was like, wait, what?

And I got him really good i think i said his legs look like two christmas hams or something because he was wearing the skinniest uh skinniest of skinny jeans and a little beyond that too but uh i i just i never looked at him the same i was like i hate that guy no i didn't i i was just shocked i was like it's like i like took my headphones i was like are you talking to me and then he like said it again i was like what the hell i was like and so uh i'm just thinking you knock your coffee over some some people aren't aren't into um comments on their looks i'm fine with it i mean i would like that you guys noticed my cool shirts and my gold chains and stuff so uh i'd be into that but uh i don't know it just depends on how somebody's gonna take it so i would say nothing uh i'm leaning towards saying nothing for a bunch of reasons

i'm glad you brought the hr one because that's a good one because even if it was all harmless but you don't read the kid all that well and then he researches it and then goes back to hr which is pretty unlikely i would imagine but what you don't want to do what you probably always want to avoid at work is trying to describe to an hr rep why you thought somebody looks like the guy in a movie that again isn't a porn movie but it's a movie about porn and with the heightened sensibility of a bunch of just stupid shit people have to deal with in the corporate world some fair some not um i don't think you ever want to be in that chair because it's a losing spot like the hr rep is going to be like, oh, yeah. Oh, my God.

That guy looks just like him. Great call. You'd be filling out forms. You'd be sitting there. There'd be some sensitivity Zoom that you're going to have to check off your corporate to-do list box, which all the on-air people at ESPN would have like an assistant do. But I'm not all on air. But I just remember like there's no way this guy is doing this thing and be sitting there having to do all these checklists it's just annoying but you know you said intern so i say young they might just have different things and be like what he's so i look like the guy with the huge piece that's what

you're saying like i don't know maybe yeah right because if the email here by the way the emailer could be wrong the emailer could be like hey this kid just unbuttons his shirt a little bit and has a look yeah he's like oh he looks just like this totally because jim cunningham uh who i used to work with we would we would always smoke cigarettes outside uh the gower building yeah and every time he pointed somebody out to me he was like that there goes kevin costner it's not kevin costner it's like there goes uh whatever it's just every time they said a guy looked like somebody be like you're totally wrong it's like no of course we would argue think he was right that it was like costner because it was a major studio in hollywood so i know impossible but i know no he was wrong on purpose because i always like to do like you know he was wrong on purpose but he was saying

that guy looks like this guy oh and he looks like that guy i'm like no just bad just bad that's what i mean yeah and he would and he would fight me on it and i'd be like you know we don't have a we don't have a bunch of time here we got to go in after the cigarette i don't want to spend the whole time arguing why that's not fucking jim carrey but uh it just doesn't look like him man and he's like you're crazy so there are people out there that just have a bad compass for that stuff there you go bad compass because that could be it right you could be the in maryland you could just be like, oh, hey, I think this guy looks like this guy. I mean, think about it. He's an intern. So that means he is 22.

He could be 18 anywhere to 23 if he's on the Rosillo program. So the movie likely came out three to five years before he was born. It's not likely that now a movie made in late 97. This kid loved the movie so much that he's like,

I want to do that, and I want to give off porn star vibes at the office. He may just be the most confident dude ever. He also could be totally off socially and doesn't realize how stupid it looks as an intern making this kind of impression on everybody else. But I don't think it's your spot. It also depends kind of how much of an alpha you are because you know there's a guy, if you're working in a certain spot,

maybe even a financial place, a lot of dudes that played lax where the guy's 35 and he's like, Hey, Dirk Diggler, first day does it to the intern and nobody knows his name. And his name's Dirk for the entire summer. And the kid fucking hates all of you because nobody knows his name anymore. You know,

Hey, George Jr. Huge. Yeah. Big dong, huge dong. What's your deal? You know. You know, Hey, Joy Jr. Huge. Yeah. Big dong. Huge dong. What's your deal? You know?

And then, uh, so I say you just enjoy it with your friends. Enjoy it by yourself. Yeah. Fish. It's special that way. That's life advice.

Thanks to Kyle. Thanks to Steve. Uh, thanks to our guests. Please subscribe and download the Ryan Rossella podcast. Bring your spotlight. Outro Music