The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Celtics Chaos Emergency Pod With Bill Simmons, Jackie MacMullan, and Kevin O’Connor

Episode Date: June 2, 2021

Russillo is joined by Bill Simmons, Jackie MacMullan, and Kevin O’Connor to discuss news on the heels of a first-round playoff exit: Celtics President of Basketball Ops Danny Ainge is retiring and Brad Stevens will be replacing him. They discuss off-season player movement, Celtics head coaching candidates, what could be next for Ainge, and more. Host: Ryen Russillo Guests: Bill Simmons, Jackie MacMullan, and Kevin O'Connor Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What If? The Len Bias Story, hosted by Jordan Ritter Kahn, is The Ringer's latest narrative podcast. Episodes 1 and 2 launch on June 9th, and you can find new episodes every Wednesday on the Book of Basketball 2.0 feed. Here's a quick trailer. You've heard his name, Len Bias. 1980s phenom, second pick in the NBA draft. And then, cocaine, pick in the NBA draft. And then, cocaine. Tragedy. One of the most shocking deaths in sports history. 35 years later, Bias' legacy is still making an impact. From Spotify and the Ringer Podcast Network, this is What If, the Lynn Bias story. I'm Jordan Ritter Kahn. The NAA stepping down as the man in charge of the Boston Celtics, which also means surprising Brad Stevens

moving on from coaching to run the organization. What does this mean? We have Jack McMullen, Kevin O'Connor, and Bill Simmons in Emergency Celtics front office and coaching change-up podcast here for the next hour. An emergency edition of the Ryan Rosillo podcast, and with the news that Danny Ainge stepping down and Brad Stevens stepping up to take over the front office,

we are joined by Bill Simmons, Kevin O'Connor, and the Hall of Famer, Jack McMullen. Jackie, I want to start with you because I think the oddity of this is there's two different ways you can do this. I want to get to the Ainge part second because the Stevens news, it was surprising when they got him in 13. This is even more surprising that he's replacing Ainge and is no longer going to coach the team. Where were you as far as that part of the story? I'm flummoxed by it. I didn't see this coming. I know we're getting to age

later, but that I don't think is super surprising. I think a bunch of us have sort of forecasted that in the last few months, nevermind weeks. But I will say this about Brad Stevens. Lots of coaches say they're a family man. Brad Stevens is one. I know how taxing this last two years has been on him. I've been told again and again by people close to him that this was tearing him apart, going from the bubble and then right to a season that they thought was going to start in January and started a month sooner.

And I think it just really took its toll mentally on Brad Stevens, on many coaches, I'm sure. But I think in particular, Brad, I think he's a little burnt out as a coach. Bill and I were talking before we came on, seven years is a lifetime to coach one team in the NBA. It's uncommon. And I think he was probably thinking, I don't know, what's next? I'm trying to get myself charged up to do this again.

Now, Brad Stevens is under contract for a long time for a lot of money. And I think they appreciate him as a figurehead of their program. And I'm not a figurehead because that makes it sound like he doesn't have power. And he's going to have a lot of power starting with the head coach. And so it's a gamble. Brian, it's a gamble. Brad Stevens has a lot of experience in basketball, but not running a team in the NBA. So this is's a gamble. Brad Stevens has a lot of experience in basketball, but not running a team in the NBA. So this is a big gamble. So I think it's actually three seasons, not two, because you have to throw the Kyrie,

the last Kyrie season in there as well, which was just a miserable experience for everybody involved. Then we go to the next season, which signs a promise followed by the quarantine and the pandemic. And all of a sudden, then we're back and we're in the promise followed by the quarantine and the pandemic. And all of a sudden, then we're back and we're in the bubble and that goes all the way. They make the conference finals. They go all the way through and then they're playing again,

eight months later or eight weeks later. I just think he's, I think he's burned out. And, um, I think that's, especially if you're a big family guy, like Jackie said, and you have those three seasons in a row and all the twists and turns. And then the fact that you've been the coach now for three-fourths of a decade, I just think he's burned out. And I was surprised. I did not think, especially because they had just signed him to a big deal, I think a year ago. year ago. Um, I, we knew Jackie and I, we were on the pod, I think what, six weeks ago, eight weeks ago. And we were like, this Celtics organization will not look the same after this season. It just won't. It's been too long with the same group, the same owners, the same front office people, um, even the same two coaches over the last 16 years, there's too much of the same. And I think that's really deadly. i had theo epstein on my podcast a month ago talking about he left the red sox after 10 years he left the cubs after 10 years

he really feels like 10 years is the max where you should be somewhere and for a and she was there since 2004 so you knew this was headed somewhere um ksc though the the stevens running the team part did you have any inclination to this? Because I was floored by that part. I did not have the Stevens part. It's like you guys said, the Ainge part, that's been floating out there for quite some time that he could either retire or eye another job.

And with Brad Stevens, though, this is fascinating to me because you're hiring somebody who, as you just said, seems burnt out as a head coach to take on you know the celtics job is appealing you have jason tatum and jalen brown but there's a lot of work to be done and a lot of tough decisions to be made and not you know the weeks to come in the months to come this coming off season like this is not a hard thing to turn this into the championship team that they aspire to be yeah the age part you know for for i think that there's probably some some stuff that we all have to come together on because

we've all heard like different parts of it and that's why like i started with the stevens thing just first and i think we should get to the challenges of the the front office part of it but you know whether it was age was going to get a weird promotion for another year and stay with the organization jackie i don't think anybody with with ownership wanted to fire Danny Ainge in Boston. Okay. But I think the other part of this was that there's an Austin Ainge element, Danny's son, who's been with the organization here for a while. And that that succession plan with the way things have gone the last few years, wasn't going to happen. Austin Ainge wasn't going to take over the Celtics. And the stuff that I had heard was that the next landing spot for Danny Ainge,

like I don't think he's done in a front office and that he would have to have an option. And that's where the Utah rumor comes in with new ownership, where apparently he is very close with this new young owner out there, which adds another wrinkle to it. But could Danny take over there

with some bigger promotion, keep the front office in place, but have Austin on a track to be running his own organization? But we also, we have, KFC, we have, we've all heard he's close to that owner. Yeah, well, we know that.

He could have some sort of role that's not even a major role. For sure. I mean, what I was told, you know, a couple of weeks back is that Utah, he has interest in Utah. It's just that Utah won't hire him.

And that there'd also be some interest in Portland if Neil O'Shea were to move on from that franchise. And we'll see what happens there with the rest of that Nuggets Blazers series. But, you know,

Angel's from Portland. Maybe that could be an opportunity for him. But either way, there's no guarantees here that he gets another job immediately. Well, remember too now, guys, he's 62 years old

with a history of heart trouble. To me, this, I hope Danny Ainge retires and enjoys his life and his family and his grandchildren.. To me, I hope Danny Ainge retires and enjoys his life and his family and his grandchildren. That's what I hope for Danny Ainge, because it's a super stressful job. And I think the stress has taken it. So last year, Danny Ainge's physician told him, I don't think you should go to the bubble. I don't think it's safe for you to go to the bubble. So this is a guy who should just retire and enjoy his feeling.

And I just want to get back quickly to the idea of Brad Stevens in this front office. And we're talking about the stress of being a coach of the Celtics the last three years. The front office is pretty stressful too, guys. And it's pretty much a 24-7 job. I remember when Ainge was hired in 2003 in 03 and I was on, um, uh, an affiliate no one was listening to in Boston when we were the Celtics affiliate. And I was, I think at the station a month or two and I was like, Ainge, like, what has he done? Like, he's going to run the organization. Like, why would the new owners do this? And then I got yelled at in a commercial break by the,

by the programming director being like, idiot, this is good for business. Ainge is back in town. He's running the team. And he did a fantastic job. So I'm not just going to assume, hey, because Ainge and it worked out and they got a title that it's going to happen for Brad, because I think all of you that have brought up the point, like if you're burnout from coaching, it also, there could be a different burnout though, because if I just think it's hard to be a voice in any league for more than five years.

So if you've been Brad, who everybody thinks is a really good coach, and younger guys are just starting to tune you out because they've been hearing you for so many years, I don't think that's shocking. So the burnout can be the disconnect, not necessarily the hours put into it, because as you know, like anybody knows, it's a different amount of hours, but it's not an easier job. like anybody knows it's a different amount of hours, but it's not an easier job. For sure. More travel too, is the coach, at least if you're running the team, maybe you don't have to go on every single road trip. You can spend some time with family and strategically determine when you're leaving and when you're not. So for Stevens, you would hope that would help them help him in doing this. But ultimately though, as the general manager, you're going to make some really tough calls. And I think like you said, Jackie, he's been successful no matter what he's done, recruiting and coaching

at Butler, coaching in the NBA. And you'd bet on him having success as an NBA GM. With that said, though, when this news was announced, I was thinking about the first big move that Ainge made in 03 was trading Antoine Walker. That shook local sports talk, radio. People ripped A age for that if i remember correctly i was 13 i was so young i don't remember anything you know sure but but but but but i mean i just remember like thinking about how big of a move that was to trade a fan favorite will brad stevens be willing to make those tough choices like that i look forward to seeing his persona as a gm with him a coach. It's this balanced,

measured guy who's calm on the sidelines. What will he be like as a GM when for 18 years, it's been this guy who's tough, willing to make those tough decisions, doesn't care what the fans think. That'll be interesting to me. But I will say this, Kevin, if you think about Brad Stevens, he already made one of the toughest decisions, I think, that he made during his tenure last season when Gordon Haywood, who he adores like a son, and, you know, Gordon Haywood signed a free agent in Boston partly because of Brad Stevens. He made the decision, the correct one, I might add, that Gordon Haywood coming off injuries had to be the fourth option, not the third option, because those young guys had passed

him. And that couldn't have been easy for Brad Stevens. It couldn't have been, yet he knew it was right for the team and he did it. And then, by the way, still tried like hell to get him to come back. Brad Stevens wanted him back. And Charlotte threw a pile of money at him and that was the end of that. I think he's an exceptionally smart guy. And I think if you look at the history of the exceptionally smart coaches, you know, look at Riley in the late, in late eighties, right? If you read the Lakers books that were written about that, he, his voice had burned out with those guys. He had burned out with magic and he had burned out with worthy and Byron Scott, and they were just tired of him and he knew it and he sensed it. And that was when he made the

move and he went to do NBC, I think for one or two years, then jumped to the Knicks. Spolstra, for whatever reason, has never hit that point in Miami, right? Popovich never hit that point in San Antonio. You kind of know it when you feel like your voice has either lost a little bit of its luster, or maybe you have a little too much baggage, or maybe it's a situation where with very, very, very rare exceptions, this is a five to seven year job. I think these guys are harder to coach than ever. You have Tatum, who is 23 years old, who is magnificent, who got, you know, I think went up a level the last two months, but he's a super duper duper star now who has not yet produced on the level of, you know,

the five best players in the league, but is treated as such. I think it's, I think it's just a really hard league to coach. And, and he probably looks at this and goes, I'll refuel. I'll see if I like this front office thing. I'll do this for a couple of years. Would any of you rule out Brad coming back as the Celtics coach in like 2026 after his batteries have been recharged and his kids are older? Because I wouldn't. I think they want him to be like the Riley kind of figure in Boston where he just kind

of transcended it. And that would be the goal with this. I think they believe in him. I know the lack of experience and that's what everybody's going to jump on and that's fair. That is a fair criticism. But anyone that's been around you know what kind of man he is.

He's straightforward. I think he's been straightforward with these players. I know people say that the players tuned him out. I think it's a lot of what you were just talking about, Bill. Just general fatigue of what they've been through the last three years. And I think a new face is a good idea. Kerr hit this point in Golden State, right? And then for whatever reason, it flipped two months ago.

And he kind of realized what his team was. And I think he got re-energized by a new style of play, how to do this. But I, there was a moment two months ago where I thought Kerr was done at the end of the season. And now I don't think he is. And I think Brad never had that moment where the switch flipped.

I don't feel like he could reach the team that he had this year. I just don't feel like he ever had a handle on even the style, the way they played with all the one-on-one stuff. That's not how he coaches. That's not how he wants to play. The defensive numbers were atrocious. If there's one thing about a Brad Stevens team is they're going to defend. They're not going to turn the ball over and no one's going to get a three

point shot off. They were all for three this year in the Celtics on those. Yeah. I think the other thing though, back to like the Pat Riley part of that, that's, that's like the Pat Riley part of that, um, that's, that's like a cool idea,

but Riley just has the resume that he can pull that off. I mean, if, if Brad doesn't have a ring as an executive here, which is asking a lot because they're falling behind people as an organization and they're kind of stuck with the salary stuff, not to say that any of this is impossible, like Riley could float and do whatever he wants and replace a Stan Van Gundy because all of the players looked at Riley as the guy that

they not grew up with, but somebody that they looked at as this basketball icon. And Brad just isn't that. He just isn't. I think Brad's a really good coach. I thought he's had an incredible run. I thought he's a good coach who had a bad year. So if he has a good run as an executive, if he has a good run as an executive, that's fine. But I don't know, projecting out years from now and saying, well, maybe he'll come back and he'll do all these different things. I just think that's impossible to project because at least with Riley, we knew his resume was insane. What do you think, Casey? Well, by the way, Riley's resume after he left as Lakers coach, there was a lot of, you know, did he win those rings? Which is because he had Magic and Kareem and Worthy

and Byron Scott and he was in a West conference that where they were by far the best team every year I think when he went to the Knicks and he proved that he could match the coach slash I'm also kind of picking the players and who we have that was when we realized he was Riley and maybe I think Boston's betting

that Stevens can graduate and become that guy I don't know KOC do I think Boston's betting that Stevens can graduate and become that guy. I don't know. KOC, do you think he can become that guy? He seems skeptical. Yeah, I mean,

I think Brad Stevens can. You don't have to necessarily be cutthroat, you know, to do that job successfully. So I think he can. But, you know,

it's just interesting to me because, and I'm curious if you guys have heard this, there's the rumblings about Boston potentially having interest in a Sam Presti. I've heard that for like two years. Yeah, it's a natural thing.

Well, Sam grew up in Concord, so that makes perfect sense. And it seems like he'll be staying in Oklahoma City, but I do wonder how seriously Boston ownership considered going with a proven candidate, someone who's done it for years rather than a newcomer in Brad Stevensvens and there's always questions i mean i i would bet on brad stevens having success as running the boston celtics but there's a lot to be done like the boston is about to be pushing against the luxury tax depending on the decisions that they make this offseason there's big deals that need to be made but brad stevens does know intimately more than anybody else

every potential issue within the locker room to help improve chemistry he's there every day he understands it so i look forward to seeing what he does this offseason i really do because i would not shock me one bit if this entire team aside for maybe tatum and maybe brown look dramatically different than what we just saw in the last two years. It could look totally new. It would be hilarious if he traded Marcus within like five seconds of getting the job. Marcus is out.

He's on another team. Oh, I guess we know how Brad feels about Marcus. Honestly, it's probably more likely he is traded now. I mean, he's the best chip they have really. Think about it.

I mean, you know, they, Kimball Walker's. I think that bill, that bill joke was actually a little bit more honest than, than I think. Think about it. Kemba Walker's... I think that Bill joke was actually a little bit more honest than... I think you're right, Ryan. What we did on Sunday,

Russell and I talked about I thought that was Marcus Smart's last home game on Sunday. I didn't think he was going to be on the team next season. And honestly, he's their only trade piece. And I'm sure I was thinking about Brad just an hour when all this broke, like he had to be looking at that 2019 draft, which I think

is where it falls apart for range, right? That whole summer where you have 14, 20, and 22, you trade Tybalt of the Sixers who ends up being better than anybody you actually took with those picks. You trade back so you can get Carson Edwards and a future something that turns out to be nothing. And then on top of it, you lose Kyrie. And the thing that shocked me was like, if you're panic marriage in Kemba, basically, how do you not know about the knee stuff

when everybody in Charlotte knew that that was the number one reason they didn't want to resign him? I just don't feel like they put a lot of intelligence into it. Jackie's hopping off for one second. She's going to hop back. But KOC, did you know that Kemba stuff before they actually signed him? The Kemba injury stuff is definitely known.

And that's the criticism that some people have of Ainge. I think publicly, a lot of people say, why wasn't Danny Ainge more aggressive in making these moves and going all in the the pushback I've heard against that is was Ainge too aggressive a couple years ago you know trading for Kyrie trading for Kemba Walker should he have taken more of a step back with this younger roster when Tatum was actually only 19 when Jalen was only 21 and played it slow with their development and And I don't necessarily agree with that.

They went to three out of the last four Eastern Conference Finals. They had a chance to go to the NBA Finals multiple times. They had a lot of great success. But I get it. Maybe things were rushed a little bit. And that Kemba deal might have been the one that he pushed too hard. And really, maybe he should have just let him go and just go with a younger team. Because that Kemba deal, two years left on his contract including a player option for over 70 million

dollars that's going to be the tough part for brad stevens is like how do you build around that now that you have jalen brown and jason tatum with their big deals kicking in like it is not going to be easy for brad to build this. Ryan, we both feel like it's actually unfair to say, hey, he blew it. Because I do feel like, and this is not making excuses because I don't think you can excuse

any of the offseason in 2019. I think it's an F-minus looking back. They had those three picks. They didn't trade up. They didn't use any leverage to try to even move up one spot or two spots. And then the Kemba thing and not realizing Horford was going to leave, all that stuff. But before that, everything they did was leading to the super team

they had built that on paper was incredible, where they had Tatum and Brown on rookie contracts. They had Smart on an awesome contract. And then they had the cap space and the draft pick capital to go get somebody awesome. And they did. They got Kyrie Irving. That trade was great. They still had enough cap space to get another free agent, whoever that was. And on paper, all the stuff made sense. I think they had bad luck with Kyrie. And I think, you know, the Davis signing with Clutch was the other murder, right? Clutch was never sending Davis to the Celtics. Once those two things happened, all of a sudden it went away fast. But I really think like up to 2018, that's one of the better front office jobs we've had in the last 10 years. Russel, you agree with that, right? Yeah, I mean, this anti-Ainge bullshit is so out of control. Now, the fact that he's no longer in charge of it,

I have no problem. They needed a change. Everybody wanted to move on, figure some new things out. I have no issue with it. I'm not sitting here enraged that Ainge is out of a job. But the way he is discussed

is so incredibly incomplete and at times just inaccurate that it blows my mind. And I think a lot of it has to do with just this anti- times just inaccurate that it blows my mind. And I think a lot of it has to do with just this anti-Boston phase that we're in now. And it's been stronger more so for a lot of reasons the last couple of years. But when you go through the track record of stuff, all right, so fine, we'll go all the way through the Garnett deal and pulling that off because he pulled that off because of a relationship. All right. So it's one finals win, two finals appearances. The 2019

was the best team of any of those three years. And then KG gets hurt. So you're in position to compete for a title for three straight years. They look like they're rebuilding. All right. As they get rid of KG and Pierce in this absurd trade that never should have happened. And while they're supposedly rebuilding, Isaiah Thomas comes in and another trade where he flees somebody and they're actually competing. Now they may have been one of the worst one seeds I've ever seen, but that's kind of been my point where people look at the more recent years and go, well, they can't break through. They can't break through. And it's like, when did you ever think any of these three Eastern Conference Finals team were that great? They got smashed by the Cavs the

year Isaiah and those guys beat Washington when I can't believe the Wizards lost that series. They lose to LeBron in game seven when Kyrie doesn't even show up to the arena and you've got like basically teenagers out there running around. And then last year against Miami, like, yeah, I could have gone either way, but I looked at that series and like, I feel like Miami's the better team. Now, another part of this, why do people keep saying like, well, that Nets trade didn't really do anything. Are you kidding? that Nets trade didn't really do anything. Are you kidding? Yeah.

I mean, other than Tatum and Brown, okay? Other than getting the anchors of your franchise for a decade, other than those two guys, you're right. They didn't get anything in that trade. And when you look at the fact that the other pick was the Sexton pick that was the Kyrie trade, to trade Jay Crowder, Isaiah Thomas, Zizic, and the eighth pick in Colin Sexton for even two years of Kyrie, there trade Drake, Jay Crowder, Isaiah Thomas, Zizic, and the eighth pick in Colin Sexton for even two years of Kyrie, there was a disaster. Everybody would do that trade.

So that also helped you gain another asset. But this is where I think the Kyrie part of it is important because they were convinced Kyrie was staying. And Kyrie can do whatever he wants, but he definitely made it nastier by being like, I'm staying, I'm staying. And they were willing to trade, I think at one point, the Anthony Davis deal, which you're right, Bill. As soon as it was with Clutch, there's no way Anthony Davis signs with Clutch and is like, oh, by the way, I'm not going to go to LA and help out LeBron. And Clutch doesn't like Boston.

He was never going to end up there, even if it wasn't the LeBron factor in LA. So the other part of this, you can't have it both ways discussion, which I'm still just blown away by is that you wanted Ainge to put all these chips in because you didn't feel like he did it enough. All right. He did it with Kyrie, Kyrie bailed. That's fine. So does that mean that you would have rather he had also done it for Anthony Davis?

Because that trade could have happened. Like, would you have wanted Tate? Because if you say like, oh, they should have traded for Kawhi. They should have traded for this guy. I'd rather have guys for at least seven years than somebody who may not be here in two. And when you're running the Celtics, you have to worry about that and how desirable the city is. So when I hear people say they should have done this, they should have done that, they should have done this for Kawhi, then that means then you think they also should have traded a Tatum or a Jalen Brown for an Anthony Davis because that shows that Ainge at least is willing to go for it. And that's just stupid when you say it out loud. Well, and the other, you left out two things that he did that were great. I mean, you listed all of the good. I

didn't, I still have more stuff. You left out two things. You left out, they had the first pick in the draft, and he smartly assessed that Tatum was the best guy in the draft, which he gets no credit for now. By the way, I don't know if there are three GMs that would have had the balls to have done it. And he also was going to take Durant. He would have taken Durant in 07. Fultz was absolutely the consensus number one mock guy.

So usually GMs are like, look, if I get, if I get weird with this, if Fultz doesn't work out, then at least I can say, Hey, everybody had them. Number one, that's what GMs are going to do. That's like the Carol Anthony towns, Przingis thing that I've always said, there were teams that thought Przingis was right there with Carl Anthony towns. It's like, yeah, but if Przingis is a bust, I'm fired. If towns is a bust, maybe I can stick it out another couple years that's what the tatum draft pick is most gms would have gone well i may like to hate him a little bit more but i'm just going to take faults because he's number one on everyone's well mocks and that's why go ahead no i was gonna say the thing with angels when it came to top talent he nailed it almost every single time. His problems were in the later rounds.

And Stevens too. Stevens was the other thing that he nailed, which he never gets credit for. That's a great hire. Nobody saw it coming. Right. And so I think it's the later rounds. You mentioned the 219 draft. That was a really, really tough one. I think that's where Danny ran into problems. And the other thing, Ryan, I think the reason people talk about the Brooklyn Nets and the Celtics and that deal is that you have to give credit to the Brooklyn Nets, to Sean Marks, what he has done. I was there. I did a story on them when they were winning like 15 games and he and Kenny Atkinson are

just like trying to hold it together with hardly any talent at all. So what they did is just remarkable. It's remarkable. Now they have Brooklyn as a selling point and that's, that makes a big difference. If Boston were cool and Durant wanted to go there, then the Celtics would be awesome too. Well,

that's, but that's my point. So that's why people compare because it does look like now the Brooklyn Nets might win a championship before the Celtics do. That's all. That's just, that's the narrative you're going to have to get used to. See, but I can't hang the Celtics

on that. KFC, like... No, of course not. If they're going to the Knicks instead of the Nets, we're not even talking about the Nets right now. The bottom line is James Dolan completely botched that to the point that Durant Kyrie wanted to play in New York, didn't want to play for the Knicks. But again, you can't have it both ways, any of you. If we're

going to play this game, they ended up in Brooklyn, okay? If we're going to play for the Knicks. But again, you can't have it both ways, any of you. If we're going to play this game, they ended up in Brooklyn, okay? If we're going to play this game, let's be fair. Brooklyn ended up with those guys. And they, and talk about- I don't understand how they're connected. Well, because they're connected because it was a huge trade.

Again, the Nets hired someone that had never coached before that everybody was like, I don't know if this is going to work. And Steve Nash has been fantastic. And then they got Harden to come there. And everyone's like, well, how know if this is going to work. And Steve Nash has been fantastic. And then they got hardened to come there. And everyone's like, well, how are they going to get these three guys to share the ball? And they have.

So all I'm saying is you can't have it both ways. That's all. And that's why Jackie's point, like you have to give credit to the Nets for building in the way that they did from the hellhole that they were in. Like it's credit. It's not it's not both. It's two independent organizations that have just gone down different paths.

I do feel like it's a little apples and oranges with the Celtics-Nets team because the trade was the trade. The Nets did what they had to do to rebuild. And, you know, the most important thing for them was just that the Knicks hired Rose and West basically a year

late. If they were able to get those guys two years earlier, they would have created the culture and time and Durant Kyrie would run. I mean, you saw it with the Knicks crowds just in the two playoff games. It's a whole different level. KOC, what do you see with the

organization? What does it look like? Because I think both, we can all agree, maybe both ages leave. Um, Mike Zarin, who was the hot GM candidate for years and years there, um, could add the Philly job, I think could have had two or three jobs. And now Brad basically vaulted him, but I could see him staying as GM maybe, but we also, I think we all feel like they need more diversity in the front office. And they probably need diversity with the head coach position as well.

Wait, have you heard anything? I haven't heard anything about the head coach position or what will happen with Mike Zarin. I would assume like you do, that Austin Ainge will also be leaving. I'd be surprised if he wasn't. But I would bet that with Stevens as a new general general manager here like

you would be with the new head coaches it'll be a collaborative process i would expect that you would want mike zarin to stay to be your salary cap guy especially with some of the cap challenges that they're going to have as soon as this offseason pushing against the tax so we'll see what happens there um like is there any noise still at all about zarin taking other jobs because i haven't heard a peep about it in recent months about him. I've asked Mike Zarin about it a million times and he says all the time

to me, if I left for another job and we won, meaning the Celtics, because the Celtics are we. He grew up wearing, he still wears the green jacket, sits in the rafters with his dad at every game. I admire his loyalty. I think he just thought I wouldn't be able to live with that. I wanted to win here.

It'll be interesting to see what happens, but you mentioned his cap knowledge, and Brad Stevens needs that. He needs that. I think everyone can attest that Mike Zarin's a very trustworthy guy in that front office. We talked about the coaching job. I would like to present Chauncey Billups to the committee

as a possibility as a coach job, because doing a great job with the Clippers. And the reason people weren't hiring him before was he doesn't have any coaching experience, right? We all know Chauncey is that level that we're talking about, the instant respect among players and GMs. I think his resume speaks for itself, a former Celtic for a very brief amount of time, as we all know. I think he'd be an excellent candidate for them. I don't know if they've contacted him. I'm not reporting this other than just saying he makes perfect sense to me as someone they should look at. Look, I love Chauncey uh i got to know him pretty well at espn um he's he's somebody that you know

i've kept in contact with over the years and whenever he tells stories like first of all he has a presence okay he does he has he has this kind of like we're just talking about hey younger guys and trying to reach them i'd be shocked if chauncey couldn't. And I remember the story he was telling me. I was like, well, give me an example of you figuring something out because you played for a million different teams, a million different coaches. He's like, I was with this one team because he actually was a really good coach. So I don't know if the story's out there. I'm not going to say exactly who the coach was. And he goes, it was out of bounds. I just started playing. He's like, I think it was my first game with them. And he goes, I wanted to inbound on the baseline.

And I was like, what do we run? And we're like, ah, you know, we'll just, I'll shade towards the middle. I'll get there. He was like, no, fuck that. Time out. He was like, we're not just baseline. We'll figure it out on the inbounds. And he had just gotten to this team.

And he was like, we're doing this, this. He goes, these are the calls. He's like like and this is the second one or whatever it was and it was just it's those little little things where he just looked around was like wait what do you guys do like well i'm here now we're not doing that anymore and they were like oh okay now yeah again now is he going to be an awesome head coach i love his personality i think the resume is there i still think he's connected enough to today's generation that it's not going to be like a who is this guy. And he has a real command. Like when you sit in a room with him, he's a little soft spoken, but he's got this real way of speaking that it feels like it's always important.

So I love the idea of it. I didn't know him and I did TV with him when I was doing Countdown. And these two things relate with each other one is he he developed a relationship with Bob Iger when Iger was running Disney

and that was how we ended up on TV because Iger just loved him Iger rarely sends notes and Iger sent a note to the TV guys like can we put Chauncey on TV

and I think he just had like a friendship that they built because he thought Chauncey had like a special quality thought Chauncey had like a special quality. So Chauncey comes on, does TV and you know, he wasn't great on TV because he was so measured. Um, and so thoughtful, which isn't really how it works when you're doing a

studio show and you got the hands going and the whole thing. But when you're in the room with that dude, as you, as Rosilla said, there's a real presence to him. And it's a hard thing to explain, but especially like you're in those rooms, you're doing the meeting and whatever, and it goes around, people say what they think. And there was a thoughtfulness to him and a leadership piece to him that was just really interesting to experience. And it was like the whole Chauncey thing made sense to me, like why that Pistons team that was so goofy, right? You have Rasheed, who's a loose cannon. You have Ben Wallace, who's, you know, at that point was just- A hall of famer.

A hall of famer, Ben Wallace, who's this rebounding maniac. He got rips, got to get his shots. Tayshaun, you got to basically pull out him giving a shit and really trying to assert himself offensively. And then on top of it, Larry Brown, who's a maniac and Chauncey was the rudder to that team. And, you know,

it just made sense spending a couple of times with them doing TV. I was like, I get it. So I think that would be a great choice. You know, I covered him as rookie year at, with the Celtics and he wasn't there. It was quick.

50 games. I took him to lunch. I. It was a quick one. It was quick. 50 games. I took him to lunch. I think I was working for Sports Illustrated at the time. I took him to lunch. And it was one of the most remarkable interviews I've ever done. And I'm not going to... We had a conversation about something that I later said to him,

I don't think you should say that. I think it would hurt you if you say this. And I didn't... I just liked him so I think it would hurt you if you say this. And I didn't, I just liked him so much. He was young. He was, you know, energetic. And so years later, I mean, I forgot about it years later as I watched him grow. And, you know, he went from team to team, reminded me of Steve Nash a little bit. You just felt like if you could just get in the right place, it was going to be gangbusters, you know, because Steve Nash, remember early on, people forget how much he struggled early on in his career. And I felt the same way about Chauncey

and just in terms, the leadership was there, the intelligence was there. They just, but just figuring it out, like your story, Ryan, is perfect. That's Chauncey Billups in a nutshell. And I think this team could use everything that Chauncey Billups has. So I guess I'm like running a poster campaign

for him right now on this podcast. Well, and he also, he got the experience too, where that was the rub on him is like, well, he hasn't done it now. Nash hadn't done it before. Doc Rivers hadn't done it before, but I think Chauncey was smart enough to talk to different people and say, oh, I got to actually put in some, some bench reps. I got to see this, you know, before I actually take this on. I want to offer up another name, potential head coach, Kyrie Irving.

We know these young guys in this team love him. Hugs after every game. Maybe he can get Robert Williams to play, you know, more than a quarter, right? How did they all hug him after he stomped on the leprechaun? Game five, it's like, oh, hugs galore.

Great to see you, Kyrie. Thanks for kicking our ass. But that's the world today. Kyrie Irving, players respect him so much because he is such a gifted player. And he really is. I mean, he's got the most incredible handle. And that's what players care about, guys.

You know this. Kyle, you know. You've covered the league long enough. That's what players care about, guys. You know this. Kyle, you know. You've covered the league long enough. That's what players care about. They care about street cred. And Kyrie Irving has basketball street cred. What is the least likely Brad Stevens hire? Jason

Kidd? Mark Jackson? Oh, God. Mark Jackson. Kevin, no. Mark Jackson's not getting hired. Jason Kidd, I can't imagine. I don't know. I suppose it's possible. I mean, you know, would they, it feels to me like there has to be a name attached. This is why, again, why I think Chauncey makes sense.

We're talking about the idea of a diversity hire. I mean, there's great, like Darvin Ham to me. I would, someday, someone should, very soon, someone should give Darvin Ham a chance. He's a really good coach and he commands instant respect also. He's just not a big name. You know, David Van Der Poel, we've heard that name a million times.

The other one, and again, his name came up again because I just did this story with Donovan. Johnny Bryant, who worked with Donovan at the Jazz, is now the associate head coach in New York. He is very well-respected. You've heard the same thing, right, Kev? So, I mean, like, he's someone that's just... But I just don't think that's... Just knowing the Celtics the way

I do, it feels to me like if you're going to do this, you've got to get someone that has some name recognition. I might be wrong. Can Conspiracy Bill come in here for a second? Sure. If Chauncey's a leading candidate, which I think we all think, who is his best

friend in the world? You? I don't know. Kevin Garnett. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's interesting. Could KG come in as like advisor to Brad Stevens or whatever? Could they give him some ceremonial thing just to get him in the front office?

But more importantly, just to kind of be around the team because that was what was supposed to happen in Minnesota and then they fucked that up. Right, right. KG seems like he's, I don't know, in limbo a little bit. Yeah, what his next career thing is

and could KG be a piece of that if Billups is involved? Because I do feel like that's a possibility. And he was the first one to get on the mall for stomping on the logo. He did not like that. He made that clear. So that would be the first one to get on the mall for stomping on the logo. He did not like that. He made that clear. So that would be the first order of business, I'm guessing. Hey, you know, just don't step on the logo. There would have been a speech for Grant Williams.

Hey, Grant, feel free to hit one of these dudes on a drive. Feel free to knock Kyrie down once. Or, you know, same thing for, who is the starting center? Not Robert Williams. The, who? Oh, Tristan Thompson. Hey, Tristan, feel free to throw an elbow at somebody. Like we're in a playoff series. Tristan Thompson played with Kyrie Irving,

won a championship with him. You know, he's not going to do that. I just think that toughness has to be a piece of wherever this Celtics thing goes. Because it was the softest Celtics team of any good team. I've think that toughness has to be a piece of wherever this Celtics thing goes because it was the softest Celtics team of any good team I've seen in a while. So KFC, we think Jalen and Tatum

are back. Is there any lock for any other Celtic to be back in your mind? Did you see one? We have to bring this back. Well, Kemba's back. You know, through some of this stuff though. We've learned, we've been taught too many times to ever say that any transaction is impossible. And with the amount of cap space that's out there for not great player options, I would never say never, but yeah, the 70 plus million for Kemba and the need that it's going to be, I would say at this point, I would never say never, but yeah, the 70 plus million for Kemba and the need that

it's going to be, I would say at this point, I mean, it's going to be part of the Kemba story. I don't imagine it's all of a sudden going to be way better for a full season and he's going to be terrific. But yeah, I mean, because of the number of KOC, I'll defer to you and kick it back to you. I just kind of thrown that one in there. No, I mean, I think you're right. And I would also just say Tatum's the only guarantee. I mean, could you guarantee that Jalen Brown would be back if there's a big move available? If Bradley Beal decides he wants to team up

with his friend of over a decade and Jason Tatum? I mean, I'm just saying like, I think that's something that could be a possibility if it were to present itself. But I'm not sure the guarantee. Look, this is back to my original rule for the people that rip on age for not going all in it's like I'd rather have somebody for seven years than two or one

and a half and if you're Boston and you know Jalen is cool with the city then I'm not trading him for Beal honestly I don't know look I'll just say it too I don't think the gap between Beal and Jalen Brown is as significant as the NBA world thinks it is. Jalen Brown's a two-way player. Jalen Brown's a two-way player who has a chance to be an elite two-way player, I think. But are we sure? What I don't know, because I couldn't spend any time with these guys because we can't get near them because we can't talk to them in person. And we have to talk to them over Zoom or over the phone or over text is, what was the vibe of that locker room? None of them could be happy with how the season went,

but is the vibe of the locker room whole? Was it guys supporting each other, but it didn't work out? Are they all cool with Brad Stevens? I think they respect him. It seems to me that they do. I've seen nothing to indicate to the contrary. But what is the vibe of that room? And how do they all interchange with one another? Because as one of you said, I think maybe it was you, Ken. That's I mean, Brad Stevens knows that better than anybody. So what are the inner workings of that team?

And I think this is one of those years that for journalists, we've been at just a horrendous disadvantage because we find all that stuff out before the game, right? You show up three hours before the game and you sit on the sidelines and you watch guys warm up and you watch guys interact and you talk with the assistant coaches and you talk with the opposing assistant coaches. And that's how we get our pulse on what's happening, right? What is the feeling of this team? And it's how we get our pulse on what's happening, right? What is the feeling of this team? And it's been impossible to do this year. Well, unless, I don't know, maybe you guys

have done a better job of it. It's been impossible for me. I know that. I mean, it seemed like it was split. I mean, I had reported earlier in the season that because of the COVID protocols, they were one of those teams where they had to have two separate locker rooms. You know, they had to have like a lot of the younger guys to have a lot of the younger guys in a separate locker room, and then a lot of the veterans in the main locker room, which is small as is. And that just kind of created a divide, like it did for other organizations and other teams.

It wasn't unique to the Celtics, but it was a challenging year for everybody. But no doubt about it that the chemistry for this team was not right all season long. And whether it's individuals or just a bad mix that's you know i'm excited to see what brad stevens does like what will be the first big move will it be a market smart trade will it be a shocking you know blockbuster deal or is this team going to stay pretty much the same with just some minor tweaks around the edges um but brad stevens knows more than anybody else like you just said jackie what does need to change for the

chemistry to be right? Because it was undoubtedly wrong the entire season. That's what made it a nightmare to watch, despite some young guys getting better. It still was a nightmare. I got to say, I think Jalen is untradeable for me because of what he means off the court and on the court. And having lost Mookie Betts

and what he could have meant to the city and what he did mean to the city and, you know, having lost Mookie Betts, um, and what he could have meant to the city and what he did mean to the city when he was there. Um, and then to lose Jalen too with, you know, the country at the point it is as a country with Boston at the point it's at with this stuff. And I think athletes can make such a big difference on and off the court. And it's weird to say that should factor in with how you build a team. But I really think in this day and age, you have to think about that. I think Jalen's one of the most special guys in the league.

So if it's like, I'm going to trade that for the slight upgrade of Bradley Beal because he's from St. Louis with Tatum. To me, that's not a reason to make a trade. If you're telling me I'm trading Jalen for Dame Lillard or one of the other 10 best guys in the league, now I'm willing to have the conversation. But Jalen and Bradley Beal, that to me is not a trade. I would much rather build around Tatum and Jalen, two guys who really seem

to like playing with each other and who I think have a chance to be special off the court. I think that has to matter. And look, were Beal and Tatum roommates? I mean, my God with that story. It's a St. Louis thing. It's the new Clayton Kershaw-Matthew Stafford deal. It's just, you can't go five minutes without mentioning it. And there's plenty of guys that like each other.

But until I know more about what Beal really wants, I'm going to guess it's probably not Boston. So I hate that trade. I want to hearken back to something you just said, Bill, about Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum really liking playing together. They don't play as well together as they should. As much as I like them both as individual, talented, two-way players, their symmetry on the court I don't always like.

I think there's a lot of, okay, your turn. I'll stand and watch over here. But how much does that have to do with the point guard, the fact that they've never had their version of a Chris Paul? I mean, granted, there's no Chris Pauls in the league other than Chris Paul, but if they had somebody that looked out for them, would that make a difference? I hear you.

And I think the other thing about Jalen Brown, the reason I wouldn't trade him is we haven't even seen close to his ceiling. Yeah, and he's gotten better every year. He's making huge jumps every year. And he made a huge jump this year. And it's gotten lost in the sauce because the team was so disappointing.

And he got hurt. Yeah, I'm hanging on to Jalen Brown too, if it's up to me. And that's why I present that thought. But I agree with you guys that that is probably not a deal that you make because Jalen Brown not necessarily at his peak here. He just became a 25-point program scorer. And I'm also not sure that Bradley Beal solves that playmaking issue.

Beal is a score-first player like Tatum is a score-first player. They can pass. They can make guys around them better. But what the team needs is somebody who can pass and create next to Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum. And trading Brown for Beal doesn't solve that. You mean like Gordon Hayward?

You mean like Gordon Hayward? Yeah, there you go. Somebody like that. I think the biggest mistake they made from a team construct standpoint the last couple years was they just had so many draft picks and you're taking these rookies and you feel obligated to throw them out and try them out and see what you have. And, you know, we could list eight of them. Um, and the reality is when, when you have role players, especially when you kind of know who your nucleus is, you don't really want young, unproven guys in those spots. Like look at,

look at Denver last night, Austin rivers, who's been on six teams, but I think we all kind of like Austin rivers as at least he's not going to be afraid. You can throw them out in a playoff game. He'll never be that. He'll never be afraid. He will at least feel like he belongs.

And you like, just think about the difference in him and Romeo Lankford, who might be talented. I don't know, but over and over again, they're throwing Romeo Lankford. It's Romeo Langford, who might be talented. I don't know. But over and over again, they're throwing Romeo Langford. It's like, Hey,

guard James Harden. Romeo Langford is not going to be able to do that. Austin rivers. And there's guys like this every year who get claimed, who, you know, they switch teams, late deadlines,

February, March range. Austin rivers would be like, yeah, I'll fucking guard James Harden. I'm as good as that guy, even though he's not, he will think that he is. And I think, the big mistake they made they felt like they had all

these picks i would have packaged five of the picks for one guy i think they could have had it they could add halliburton last year they could add here before they tried on the halliburton deal phoenix was in a spot there where phoenix actually i think screwed it up because phoenix could have dropped back and taken But they never overpowered anyone with a trade, though. But like Hero, Hero's the one. Tyler Hero's the one.

Just trade five first round picks for him. Who cares? Give him whatever. Well, not that many. Not that many. Not that many, though. Just trade up a little bit.

Just get somebody good instead of just, let's Okay, but now you're being silly. All right. Three first round picks. My issue with some of the Ainge stuff is that

there's some gaps there where you're like, oh, okay, this draft wasn't good. This draft wasn't good. But the analogy I would use here is if I hire a guy to build me a home and the foundation's incredible, it's energy efficient, great materials, he cared about all the finish work he finished the punch list that's what age is but then people are bitching that they don't like the color of the house yeah because when i think about the important moves that he pulled off the important moves that he got right were so much bigger than the smaller moves that he got wrong he's the only guy that probably taken

jalen brown and when he took jalen brown if you watch him at Cal, you were kind of like, I don't know. Like, I don't know what's going to go on here. I mean, I don't know, KFC, if you had other people that had other teams that had him ranked number three jump in. But the Tatum deal, I'll say again, most guys wouldn't have the stones to do that. You know, people wanted him to not lose Horford, Kyrie, and Gordon Hayward. And when you say it that way, you're like, yeah, what the hell are you doing? Horford was immediately one of the worst contracts in the NBA Gordon Hayward may be one of those you know Kyrie

had his own plans and again that's fine that Kyrie went ahead and did it and I think the Kemba deal was out of desperation to fill in the slot that Kyrie was you know they were afraid if we don't do the Kemba deal that we actually kind of lose that that transactional spot so if I ever wrap a bow on the Ainge part of it yeah yeah, I'll hear some of the criticism. Apparently nothing prior to the Nets trade counts anyway anymore. But if you go over all of the transactions and if you are fair and also compare it

to other great organizations that have some lean runs for two or three years where it didn't look like the Spurs can do anything right here for a bunch of years in a row, but you never hear it brought up i would just say like anybody that's giving anything to age lower than a b at this point is just being completely unfair and if you talk to people around the league other executives other gms who are the best people you know who are the toughest people to negotiate with who are the best gms many of them say danny age and many

of them don't like him you know for a reason reason. That's what you hear, right? He's so arrogant. Well, whatever. I will say this, though, Ryan. The only thing that gave me pause on Danny over the last three years was Kyrie, okay. Kyrie, who knows, man? He's Kyrie. He left. That's fine. Horford leaving, yes, what you said was true about him, but that's because 90% of the guys in the NBA, it's all about fit, right? I think we agree with that. The superstars can play anywhere. It was the worst fit possible for Al Horford in Philly.

It was a good fit for Al Horford in Boston, and he was important to what they were trying to do. And the fact that he left, and I know it was for more money. It turns out it wasn't for as much as we thought. Almost immediately afterwards, we found out that third year was only partially guaranteed. Yeah, that last year had some really odd incentives too. So, but my point there was that was a warning flag to me. Like Kyrie, okay. But that was a little bit of a warning flag. So why does this guy want to move on? And then you do your intel and you hear the Kyrie year for him was too much. The whole thing was, he was ready to move on. But then Gordon Hayward leaves too. And again, Charlotte

comes up with that money. But I think there was a time, had the Celtics played it right, they could have taken care of that and they didn't so those are the warning flags for me there seemed to be near the end of Danny's time a little bit too much of a disconnect with the players and his relationship with them I think that's a criticism right but I think the Gordon thing had more to do with the way Gordon looked around because you mentioned it earlier like yeah Gordon didn't like that he was a fourth option. Do you blame him? I don't blame him. I don't blame him, but unfortunately, you were hurt.

And the other guys all got better. So when you're out and then you come back and then you're like, hey, I don't like my role on the team, so I'm going to start. Gordon Hayward wanted out. So I don't know how Ainge could have prevented Hayward from dropping as an option offensively when he wasn't around. Well, but I don't think it's as simple as that. I think there were some things, promises made, things said like, all right, can we just talk about, just for one second,

I know I'm digressing here, but Andre Drummond starting for the Lakers. Does everybody agree that they made him some promise when they signed him that you're going to get to start or whatever? Right? And so when you make promises like that, and I don't know what promises they made to Gordon Hayward, I have no idea, but I do think some things, there were some things said that maybe weren't followed through on. And then I think what happened was ownership went to Danny and to Brad Stevens said, okay, I want to keep this going. We want to keep this going. Who do we need? Like, who do we need to go out and get? And I think they both said, no, we need Gordon. We got to bring Gordon back.

Well, up to that point, I don't think Gordon Hayward had any idea that the Celtics were even interested in taking him back if he didn't pick up that option. And that's a disconnect. That's a disconnect. There's a previous piece to that, too, that complicated it. Because the year that he came back after the ankle injury and Brad was really loyal to him, right? Gave him big minutes and, you know,

basically was giving him credit for abilities that he just didn't have. His confidence wasn't back. Right. Right. Um, he just wasn't very good. And from what I was heard in KOC, you were on that team a lot more than I was,

but this is what I had always heard is like, there was a little bit of resentment on the player side. Like, why the fuck is he playing Hayward so much? Why does he trust Hayward so much? Hayward's not even one of our best five guys so that caused a little bit of an issue too and i think the hayward thing just it couldn't have gone worse from the moment he breaks his ankle right 17 minutes into the season yeah you know what though like that's that's been brought up so many times that like oh that team fell apart that was the team that was

advertising to us like look out once we get into the playoffs, it's on. And it was like, really? Because I haven't seen it in the regular season, and you guys have never done anything collectively as a group. And then as soon as they lose to the Bucs, then it was let's blame Gordon Hayward's minutes time. Brad Stevens has a former All-Star on a max contract that's cleared medically.

That guy in every situation for 29 other teams gets minutes, gets minutes. They played him for like 13 games and people keep bringing that up as that's the downfall of everything. But maybe that's the seed that was planted that maybe these guys are mentally soft. That if you're going to let Gordon Hayward's minutes to see if he's healthy derail you, which again, it was just excuse making. So that's really what it was a lot of those guys a lot of those guys aren't even around anymore but i saw other talking heads on television cite that be like oh that was a disconnect in the locker room and you go there is no scenario where the player with that profile at gordon hayward's age at that time medically cleared that all of a sudden is a sixth man but you also you had rogier in there you had morris in there you had guys obviously one of the guys entitled for playing time yeah was just, it was a mess. And it's kind of hard to believe. Like, so Morris

was in the Kyrie camp. You were talking about camps before. KOC? Is that what they're calling you? Are they calling you K? I keep hearing KFC, like fried chicken. This is bothering me.

KOC. KOC. But you both make it sound like it's KFC. And I'm like, gross. We call it KFC too. KOC is good. Potential sponsor. Yeah. Not gross. We call it KFC too. It's the right sponsor money.

Potential sponsor. Well, perhaps I've done something for you, Kevin. I hope I have. I hope KFC comes calling. Thank you, Jackie. That whole thing to me was just weird. This team has been weird for a while. Toughness,

Marcus Morris, Kyrie, and Jason Tatum over here, definitely. They were threesome. Marcus Morris got so irritated with Jalen Brown because he thought Jalen Brown was a know-it-all. But guess what? Jalen Brown is a really smart kid that was learning on the fly, that was very, very important. But Jalen Brown, the best thing about him was he stood up to those guys. He said, I don't like the way you're doing that. When Kyrie was like all these young guys, Jalen Brown was the first one to say, well, wait, now hold on a minute. What about the veterans too? And so that's another reason why Jalen Brown's one of the guys I want around. Because whether you liked Marcus Morris or not, or you didn't appreciate

or appreciate or didn't appreciate his time in Boston, He was one tough son of a gun. And they don't have enough Marcus Morrises on their team now with that same kind of... Like, Bill, to your point, if Marcus Morris was still playing for the Celtics, what do you think he would have done? Oh, clothesline. Somebody would have been clothesline. And I'm not promoting violence,

but I am saying that there's a lack of toughness among... And as much as I like Gordon Hayward, and I do a lot, he's not that guy either. And Jason Tatum isn't that guy. Jason Tatum at the end of the season said, and he's a brilliant player, jaw-dropping player. He's going to be, you know,

but he's not the guy that's going to get in someone's face. That's not who he is. And you can't ask a player to be something he's not. So then you got to go out and get players like Kendrick Perkins who are like that.

And they might not be the most talented guys, but you need guys like that in your locker room. And they don't have them. Might as well just hire Kendrick Perkins' head coach. Throw his name out there too.

Oh, goodness gracious, no. Kendrick Perkins has thrown a flamethrower in every single player in that team's locker. I don't think he's welcome. Anyway. All right, an hour.

I think we got it. All right, let's go around and get predictions quick. We'll start with Jackie. All right. Chauncey Billups is the next head coach of the Boston Celtics. I don't know if that's true, but I like it. That's a good one. I think it would be Billups or somebody like him.

Somebody who played in the league, um, would, would be very surprised if it was not a black head coach. Um, I think that would be important for a variety of reasons. Um, and I think there will be some sort of hire for the front office that will, uh, improve the diversity of the organization. I will say, yeah, I think a former player would make a lot of sense, um, for this team. And I think John C. think a former player would make a lot of sense for this team. And I think John C. Billings makes a heck of a lot of sense.

Somebody who can serve as a bridge between the coaching staff and the players and the front office. I've been able to confirm Uri Welch will not be the head coach. I don't think Stoico Vrankovic will be either just to help you out. That was the first Ainge trade.

And I kind of sneaky was like, I think Uri Welch is the key to this deal. And it was not the key to the deal. Remember, Ainge got a number one for Uri Welch from Cleveland. Remember that? Yeah. I loved Uri Welch. I was like, oh, this guy's got a chance.

Sneaky great Ainge trade. Just got a first round pick randomly for somebody who couldn't play. How many people did Danny Ainge trade? Somebody should count those up and write a little story about that. That would be super fun. I do feel like Ainge won most of the trades. I would say at least 70 to 75% of them. And that was part of his problem the last few years was he always wanted to win the trade.

And there's sometimes, especially when you have a team where you need that one last guy, sometimes it's okay to pay 120 cents on the dollar if you have the three picks to move up a couple spots. Things like that. And he was never willing to lose a trade. He wasn't going to trade 14, 20, and 22 for Tyler Hero.

He just wasn't. But in retrospect, maybe he should have. Okay. Please subscribe to the Ryan Russillo podcast. We will be back tomorrow. Rashid, Wallace, and a couple other things planned as well. you