The Ryen Russillo Podcast - CFB Realignment: Which Fan Bases Are Actually Happy? With Bruce Feldman and Van Lathan. Plus Danny Ainge Does It Again.

Episode Date: July 5, 2022

Russillo shares his thoughts on the Rudy Gobert trade and what it means to make a deal with Danny Ainge (0:31), before a quick rant on College Football realignment (11:00). Then, Ryen talks with Bruce Feldman of Fox Sports and The Athletic about exactly how UCLA and USC secured a move to join the Big Ten conference in 2024, and what this means for the future of the PAC 12 (18:38). Next, Ryen is joined by Van Lathan to discuss how conference realignment in college football affects the regional aspect of the sport, Texas and Oklahoma’s aims to join the SEC, the idea of college football “super conferences,” and more (30:29). Finally Ryen answers some listener-submitted Life Advice questions (1:03:08). Host: Ryen Russillo Guests: Bruce Feldman and Van Lathan Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

today's podcast is loaded uh talk a little bit about who age is as an executive and how he's able to pull this deal off get to that i also want to do a rant on college football expansion has anyone actually enjoyed this any of these fan bases we've got bruce feldman on the news and notes and then van lathan and i chop it up and also talk a little toronto and life advice i spent a lot of time on sunday with simmons on our sunday pods talking about minnesota's deal for rudy gobert and as i said you know even though i don't like it um because i think you have to be a gobert guy to like it and i become less and less of a gobert guy we talked about it i think for almost 30 plus minutes so i don't need to recap all that stuff but there was still one part of

this that i did want to revisit that i didn't touch on there and i think is important when you're trying to understand what it's like to do a deal with danny age i do think it's funny that age is now kind of considered good again and after this deal happens they get all these picks and it wasn't really about the players it was all the unprotected picks they would get for a go bear who is a really expensive player who's not he may be all NBA, but that's more positionally than it is at any point. Has any of you have any of your friends, have you ever sat around going, Hey, who are the 15 best players in the NBA? Do you guys say Rudy Gobert? I guess if there's one guy that's completely married to the analytics, he would say that. Um, but it was kind of this

victory lap for age. And I thought, wait, this is weird. I thought everybody thought this guy sucked. I know I've gotten into arguments with people that are on the air about Ainge. I don't think he was likable as a player. So for an older generation, maybe that carried over as him as an executive. There were lean years.

I think any of you that have listened to me for a really long time, even though I am someone that is kind of called a Boston guy, I'm probably, I'd like to say the most fair. Others would say I might be one of the most anti-Boston guys. I'm not from Boston. I lived there. I spent a lot of time there, but I'm always a little cautious on trying to represent myself as some guy from Roxbury. That's just not who I am. But I mean, hell, this Celtics team, I couldn't stand watching in January,

and I still wasn't sure this entire time. So I think that track record there is very clear, but when I think somebody's being talked about unfairly or I just think everybody's off, I'm going to say it. And I always thought people were off on age. You can go through the draft picks that aren't very good. Lankford, doesn't look like it's going to be much.

Who knows what ends up happening with Neesmith as he gets traded in the Brogdon deal. They did the Desmond Bain deal where he ended up in Memphis when he could have been with the Celtics. The Fab Mello pick. I remember reading one piece that was like, Ainge is terrible at drafting. The guy that did the piece,

this is actually something that was online, available for consumption. He wasn't smart enough to realize that when you go to Basketball Reference and you look up a team's draft picks historically, they don't change them based on who you traded out. So he started writing this piece and he started blaming them for multiple guys that they didn't even draft. They technically had the pick, but it ended up being somewhere else. What I've always argued about with Ainge is that, okay, fine. He had some real lean years with the mid to later round picks. By the way, if you do it long enough, you're probably going to have a bad stretch,

but he's really good at the important stuff. He wins the trades and he's still somebody that found a way to do the Tatum deal when I don't think most people would have done that. He picked Jalen Brown, which I definitely couldn't believe at the time because I didn't really get it. Jalen Brown, I was wrong about Jalen Brown.

He also, before he bounced, Peyton Pritchard, Rob Williams. Pritchard was 26. Williams was 27. Grant was 22. That's three rotation players in the 20s, three finals rotation players. So it felt like he was kind of riding the ship there a little bit at the end.

But on his way out, it felt stale. It all felt stale. I don't think the Celtics are ever going to fire him. And he ends up being able to keep his son in place. The front office has stabilization. Brad Stevens moves up to the front office. They do the coach. And then he waits it out. Everybody knew he was always going to end up running this Utah team because Ryan Smith, who buys the Jazz, is like his close friend. And everybody had been talking about this for a couple of years. All right. So he pulls off this trade. I want to talk about personalities because I think

this can apply to a lot of us and a lot of stuff that we do. Like who is Ainge? Who is Ainge? What does he see when he looks in the mirror? Well, he sees a guy that, what, for 40 years was either a player in the NBA, a coach, a broadcaster, an executive now for almost 20. The guy also played baseball. So he probably likes what he sees when he thinks about his approach as a basketball person, a person whose life has been in athletics. When he looks in the mirror, he's probably thinking, like, I know what I'm doing. I'll tell you right now, in talking to guys for as many years as I have, there are very few that will ever say, I'm kind of not good at this. I've never heard anyone ever say that. Hey, what happened with this draft pick?

Oh, well, it was this, this, and this. Were you wrong about him? Like, nah, there's a bunch of other things going on. All right. Were you wrong about him? Nah, there's a bunch of other things going on. So when Ainge is talking to somebody else about basketball, there's a pretty good chance that Ainge thinks he's right.

And if you have that kind of personal resume, look, he's not one of the all-time greats. I'm not saying that. He's not some Hall of Fame player. But what you've accomplished in basketball, the game of basketball, what he has accomplished, there's a pretty good chance there's some entitlement there that at least in this case is more deserved than some of the other entitlement that we have

you know, this guy wins a title with the 86 Celts, he's almost a god in Utah, which is saying something alright, so now he's back running the Jazz there's another cop that I want to come up with here, that's Steve Nash, Steve Nash they're burning here, and that's Steve Nash. Steve Nash, they're burning the ships

on our guy Steve Nash right now. His roster's at mutiny level. It's been a mess. Steve Nash is a Hall of Famer who's banked about $150 million. He's going to be all right. And I would guarantee if you got Nash in a spot where it was like,

you know, how was again, how was he processing through all of this stuff? Is he completely stressed out, filled with anxiety? Or is he like, Hey, you know what?

Like I've accomplished some really big things. This is a challenge. We'll see what the next one is. Whereas if you were Kenny Atkinson, if you were still the Nets coach, there's a good chance Kenny Atkinson's probably handling this differently because he does not have the resume of the guys that we're just talking about. When I ask teams about interviewing coaches, there's a common theme that'll happen. And I'll use two examples that I was not used as examples stories-wise. But like,

if you're a Chauncey Billups or if you're a Jason Kidd and you go into interview for a job, you're interviewing as Jason Kidd or Chauncey Billups, right? And if you're, say, Mosley down in Orlando, a lifelong assistant, all these assistants that we've seen get gigs recently, Imei Yudoka as well, you're going to handle that interview probably a little bit differently because you know that when you're sitting down

across the desk from the decision makers, that they're viewing you as that lifelong assistant, which is much different than looking at a Jason kid. Or in this case, we're talking about somebody like Danny H. Now the other front office people are probably desensitized to it because they've been around it their whole lives. So it's not like who age played and Tim Conley,

Matt Lloyd didn't play. So that means that he's going to get over on. That's not what I'm saying, but I think it also, if you look at like how we react, like if you meet somebody who's either a pro athlete or a public figure or somebody that's in the spotlight. Hell, I remember when one of Jim Carrey's movies was being filmed in Burlington, Vermont back when I was still

bartending and Renee Zellweger came by and she asked for a glass, I think a white Zinn, and the owners just tell her it's for free. And we handed it to her and did this thank you thing. And I'm like, Renee Zellweger is just getting free drinks all night because of what? Jerry Maguire? All right, that's fine. Again, it wasn't my booze. Like, I don't give a shit.

But this is a very common thing that you carry yourself a certain way. You carry yourself a way that kind of reflects what you've accomplished. And again, there's plenty of people who've accomplished nothing that carry themselves in big grand ways, which is actually kind of impressive if you've accomplished. And again, there's plenty of people who've accomplished nothing that carry themselves in big grand ways, which is actually kind of impressive if you think about it. So the point that I'm trying to make here is that Ainge,

when he's on the phone with someone, he doesn't really give a shit because he doesn't really have to. And so he's going to ask for his price. You're going to get mad and he's going to hang up the phone and he's not going to sit by the phone. He's not going to call you back. He's not going to get mad, and he's going to hang up the phone. And he's not going to sit by the phone. He's not going to call you back.

He's not going to double check. He's not going to tweak the offer. He's going to see how desperate you are because he has the patience of someone that not only has the resume that we've covered, he also has the personality of somebody that is so revered in Utah. He doesn't have to do anything that he doesn't want to. Why do I know this? Because I asked somebody years ago about the Nets trade. I'm like,

how the hell did he do that? How did he do that? The way it was told to me was that the Nets made an offer for Garnett, Pierce, and all the pieces. Remember, they wanted to move off of Wallace's contract. They wanted to throw in some draft picks. And Ainge was like, all right. Ainge shared that offer with everybody else

with the Celtics. People were like, oh my God, that's amazing. Those guys are kind of washed. Do it. And he's just like, I don't think I want to do it now. Let's see what happens. He waited. He waited when everybody else probably wouldn't have.

He waited because of who he's been. He waited and he ended up getting an absurd price because he got all the swaps on top of the unprotected picks. I don't know how many other people would have done that. And maybe you have to have that kind of resume. Not that Daryl Morey isn't difficult and doesn't ask for everything. It's not like all the non-players, but there's something in it. There's this comfort that you have when you have accomplished really impressive things. It's the reason why Magic will always have a gig.

Pat Riley isn't necessarily on every single trade call, but Pat Riley has a presence about him where he is being almost consumed differently from the person across the desk than just a guy whose grinder started video and worked his way up for 20 years. This isn't to say that Ainge is better than everybody else. That's not what it is. He was always better than he was being talked about. He wasn't getting enough credit on the way out of Boston, but that's just the way it works. The thing isn't working out. Hey, I thought this team was supposed to be better.

All right, you're to blame. You had some bad drafts, on and on and on. He was never that bad. But this guy wins a lot of trades. He wins almost all of them. And I think most of us all have to admit that there's something about him and everything he's accomplished

where he goes into negotiation thinking, yeah, well, I could also not do this and it's not going to be as big of a deal because it's me, especially now in the state that he's working. One little bonus piece here. I've seen this a lot with Nash as well, who we mentioned earlier.

And Bill even brought up some of it too with Sean Marks as well. It's like, hey, there's some in the gap stuff. They could have done this deal. Maybe they should have done that one. All this stuff. Not disagreeing with any of it. All right. Nash could have been a coach. Okay, fine. Fine. But you know what? We wouldn't be here if the players just fucking play.

You see that roster? You see what it looks like on paper? I'm not sure TJ Warren's even healthy right now. But when you look at that roster and you go, you know what would have solved a lot of problems? If everybody played. So I don't really want to hear about the Sean Mark stuff and I don't want to hear about the Nash stuff.

Hold on. There's more. I want to talk college football. Realignment. You think players not playing pisses me off. All right, so let's do a little timeline for you because there was something in this exercise of researching all of this that I thought was important to share with everyone apparently. And as I went through the little work on this, I'm like, wait, should I

not be mad about any of this? There's a good argument that says maybe I shouldn't be. Let's go back in history here. It depends on where you want to start. We could talk about the WAC being ruined by the Mountain West. We go way back to when the SWAC was infiltrated. Army was

independent football for 107 years at one point, then did join a conference. Maybe I'll get some of that other stuff. It always felt like for me is when the big east was first mortally wounded but not exactly killed yet um virginia tech and miami left in 04 boston college leaving in 05 was the one they were like wait a minute you know miami and virginia tech we were okay with as a hardcore big east guy bc was the one that felt like, okay, this stings. Nebraska left the Big 12. They went 29-12 in their last five years in the Big 12. They went 28-12

in their first five years in the Big 10. I'm telling you, Nebraska fans thought based on the reaction I got as a national host talking about this stuff all the time, they thought they were going to run into the Big 10 and roll. Finally, get these other teams out of the way. It has not happened. We'll get more to that later on. Larry Scott, new Pac-12 commissioner,

innovation, tech, coastal. We're going to get Texas and Oklahoma. Nope, you're going to get Colorado who goes 8-29 in their first five years and then Utah who went from 33-6 in their last five years in the Mountain West as opposed to 18-19, but definitely show progress later on.

So Utah has actually made that transition work. 2012, Texas A&M, they leave for the SEC with Missouri. The record actually did get a little bit better for A&M and this was also, I'll never forget the Missouri stuff and I'm going to get a little more detail as well, but

they went to the SEC and had immediate success and nobody loved that more than Danny Connell. The Big East officially dies probably when Cuse and Pitt left after West Virginia left in 2012. So Pitt and Cuse leave in 2013. The Big East Football Conference becomes the AAC. They split up the basketball part of it. And you're like, all right, this thing's over. But when I look back even further, I'm like, you know, Florida State and Miami were independents when all that SWAC stuff was going on and the SEC was looking to expand. The SEC

wanted Texas A&M back in the early 90s. They also wanted Arkansas. Arkansas was thrilled to get away from the Texas part of the SWAC. And then state legislators in Texas were like, there's no way we're letting A&M and the Longhorns both go to the SEC. So that actually got all blocked. So then the SEC was like, well, maybe we should go after Florida State, Miami. Miami was like, we don't want to go to the SEC because we're a private school. And Florida State decided, you know what? We don't want to be the little brother to Florida. So we'll just go to the ACC.

So all this stuff happened back then. We're talking 30 years ago. So as I was doing it all, I'm like, wait, am I getting mad about something that's been happening for three decades? Yes, I am. Yes, I am. I am getting mad. Does it mean that I'm losing perspective of the historic stuff that I always like to bring

up to take down other arguments that I'm ignoring the things that I would usually use? I guess I am. Here's why. It's because I fucking hate it. All right. I want to ask some questions here to different fan bases. A&M, has this been awesome for you? I know the revenue, but it's not like you're not rich anyway. You might be in the playoffs by now if it weren't for you moving to the SEC. And you haven't played Texas since 2011. One of my favorite games, Thanksgiving tradition, watching A&M and the Longhorns go at it. You haven't played that since 2011. One of my favorite games, Thanksgiving tradition, watching A&M and the Longhorns go at it. You haven't played that game in 10 years.

Mizzou, has this been fun? All right, the early SEC title game appearances, again, surprising. Again, Danny Cannell's favorite single talking point ever, being like, ah, the SEC sucks. Look at Mizzou roll right in there. The SEC East kind of sucked, and Missouri actually was a decent football team for a long time.

But they've won more than seven games once in the last seven years, and we talked about that immediate success. Nebraska's had, you having a good time? They've had one 10-win season in 11 years. Zero bowl games in the last five. Nebraska is in the Big Ten West and has been to zero bowl games. Sometimes you get to like eight or nine wins in the Big Ten West just if the schedule hits right. Here are their finishes the last few years in the Big Ten West. Last, fifth, sixth, tied for sixth,

fifth, third, fourth, third. When they were in the East, remember how weird that got? They finished third. They actually won their division and played a Big Ten championship game, but lost to Wisconsin 70-31. Utah, slow start, as we mentioned before. But two good years around a weird five-game COVID season. It's worked out for Utah. But what if they told their fan base saying, hey, hey, the TV money, we can't play BYU anymore? Because that's what a lot of these other schools have done.

Could that even happen? Could you even propose that in the state of Utah? Be like, hey, holy war over TV money. Who knows? Maybe it would happen one day. I don't think I'd want to see that happen. I know plenty of fans would hate that idea. How about Colorado? Since you joined the

Pac-12, you've had four coaches and nine losing seasons. And the only rivalry you have with anyone in California is people coming up to buy up your property. Maryland, you get your ass kicked. I know your last record was fine, but let's face it. Do you feel good about playing in the Big Ten in football? No, because all you care about is basketball. And instead of playing Duke and UNC in conference or a conference championship game or just a conference tournament, you're playing Nebraska and Minnesota in basketball. Big East hoops. Q stopped playing UConn or Georgetown. No Pitt anymore because BC left 17 years ago. How about Pitt, West Virginia? No backyard brawl in football. No border war,

Kansas and Missouri. We could have a situation if Washington or Oregon were to leave. No Apple Cup or no Civil War between Oregon and Oregon State. UConn's back in the Big East as I pivot back to basketball. Instead of St. John's in Georgetown, which is still a possibility, at least in the basketball version of this,

I'm supposed to go, wait, who are the Johnnies playing tonight? Oh, I got Creighton at a 4 o'clock Pacific time tip. Notre Dame hasn't played Michigan in football since 2019 and it's not on the books again until 2033. Texas and Oklahoma leave the SEC. USC and UCLA move on.

And it's only getting worse. Yes, I know about the TV money. We've covered this. And I know traditionalists are usually like, oh, really? You're one of those? A lot of things I'm not. A lot of times I think it's a waste of time.

A lot of times I think it's hanging on to something that doesn't really seem relevant. But I'd love to know from all the fan bases, and we'll be able to figure this out in another 10 years, how many fan bases actually go, this has been awesome. I love this. Losing rivalries,

playing in divisions that are way deeper, never having a chance. I mean, hell, I didn't like the automatic conference champion bid that we used to have. I'm all for it now because now you can have 20-something teams playing in two different conferences,

which may be rebranded as television networks, and the game is going to miss something. And I think it's okay to be pissed off by that. Bruce Feldman, as plugged in as it gets when it comes to college football, the athletic, also Fox Sports. Okay, so we know the announcement recently, just days ago, Big Ten saying yes to USC and UCLA. What's the timeline of events?

How did this happen? Were they playing football there in 2024? In two years from now, it's going to start up. We'll see how it's going to work out logistically. It's interesting. I feel like this part of it hasn't been talked much. It's one thing for USC to go play Notre Dame once a year and, you know,

and fly over two time zones or play a long trip. It's another thing to do it numerous times over a year. Same thing with UCLA is going to deal with, but really at this point, the financials were just so overwhelming that they had to do it. From my understanding, from talking to people involved at both schools, the idea really bubbled up about six to eight weeks ago, but it took on a lot more momentum in just the last couple of weeks. It was a well-kept secret, but right now,

I think everybody else is in scramble mode to see what happens to the rest of the Pac-12. think everybody else is in scramble mode to see what happens to the rest of the Pac-12. How much more additions are the Big Ten looking to do because they have a Big Ten TV deal coming up. So it's a really fascinating time just in college football beyond just college athletics. So what else could they do here? What's the end game? Who else could they pick off? Are they going to go after ACC schools? Possible. Now, the ACC has a grant of rights deal, which really locks in. It becomes financially a really hard situation for some of these schools to get out. Notre Dame is obviously the biggest fish out there.

Notre Dame has a grant of rights with the ACC, but not in football. So that's not prohibitive. And Notre Dame obviously has a huge TV audience. If Notre Dame wanted to go, geographically, it makes sense. Academically, I think it makes a lot of sense. They love the independent branding that they have to be unique.

But yeah, and Greg Sankey, the SEC commissioner, talked about this a few weeks ago, about possibly, well, maybe the SEC will have its own football tournament. And, you know, people are like, well, you really can't have that because there's still the rest of college football. But if an expanded Big Ten and perhaps even a more expanded SEC do it, if they went to Notre Dame, because Notre Dame has always had a seat

in the postseason in the playoff, if they said to Notre Dame, we're not going to carve out space for you as an independent. You either join one of us or you're going to be left outside. I think that would be something that they would have to consider. My understanding is right now Notre Dame is hesitant to do anything, but I would not be surprised if that changed in the not-too-distant future just because financially it would make a lot of sense. You already have USC, SEC, Notre Dame's big rival already in there. So a lot of things have lined up already

that could work out for the Irish. What happened to the alliance, man? It was the Pac-12, ACC, Big Ten. After Texas and Oklahoma went to the SEC, those other three conferences said, okay, we are now forming the alliance. We will not poach from each other.

That didn't even make it, what, a year? Didn't even make it a year. I remember when the thing got announced, we were all on a Zoom call with the three commissioners of the ACC, the Big Ten, and the Pac-12. And I had asked the question, and remember, in the backdrop, this is only about a couple of weeks after the Big 12 got raided by the SEC. And so I brought up that Wednesday had said that there was no binding contract. I asked each of the commissioners, I said, you know, for people who are going to be really cynical about this, and it doesn't take much to be cynical after what happened with the Big 12 in Texas and OU,

this and it doesn't take much to be cynical after what happened with the big 12 in texas and ou why should anybody feel like have confidence this is going to hold up and no one's going to do an end run and jim phillips the acc commissioner that said well we looked at each other in the eye and then it went and i was kind of like cringing as he was saying it it looks even worse now right i mean you can find the video of of George Klyavkov, who's been the commissioner of the PAC for all the grand total of the year. He was really new to it. And I could see him feeling comfortable. I was like, I don't know why you would have any confidence that this would hold up. And obviously it didn't.

USC and UCLA had to do what's in their own best interest. And look, you and I both live in the West Coast. And look, you and I both live in the West Coast. It makes a lot of sense for USC, especially that for a long time, as long as I've lived out on the West Coast for just close to 20 years, USC people always said, how come we're only making the same amount revenue-wise, Oregon State and Washington State? We're the ones who drive the bus financially for the Pac-12. On the UCLA side, they're about $100 million in debt just from the last couple of years, especially coming out of the pandemic. This was a move that all their

leadership was very open to. It was a hard move, but at the end of the day, because it's money, money makes things a lot easier. And so I think when you look at that and you look at how the alliance lined up, the alliance was kind of a joke. I mean, people snickered at it in the SEC and they had reason to because at the end of the day, the TV money drives everything. And it makes people, loyalty only lasts so far. Yeah. So I was looking at some of the fiscal numbers where post-COVID, a lot of this stuff is, you know, it's a little, I wouldn't say it's misleading because the number is the number,

but normally if you're the Big Ten and you're projecting, okay, we're at 53 million per team a couple of years ago, and then there's a dip down. If everything had been normal, we're probably looking at a Big Ten deal pre the new TV rights at like 65 million per team. Whereas if you look at the last year of the PAC 12 payout, it was actually less than 20 million per. So I understand all of that. And I don't know, like, do you believe the new TV deal? We're going to eclipse easily over a hundred million per team for new teams in the big tent. Correct. Good. You know, I mean, remember, you know, this Ohio state, Michigan, those are huge TV polls. Penn State as well.

Even the schools that are seen as lesser than in terms of that, they're still kind of blue bloods, though. Nebraska has a loyal fan following. Michigan State is strong. You start getting into that. And I think when you have that many schools, now you're going to add USC to it, that's a half dozen schools. So it's not just their games.

schools. Now you're going to add USC to it. That's a half dozen schools. So it's not just their games. It's the games that they raise the level of, the Indianas and the Minnesotas and the Purdue's. And I think it's a big deal, that TV money. I don't think a lot of people get just how that part of the business works. Think about it. I mean, I have the Big Ten Network already just because I do some work for them. I've always kind of made it a priority to have it. If you're a USC and UCLA fan, you have to get it. And I think that changes some viewing habits.

And I think what's really unique here is when people say that the Big 10 has the New York market. Well, they have Rutgers and, you know, like, look, that's not having the New York market. You do have a lot of other alums from big schools who live there. But when you have USC and UCLA, you really do have Los Angeles. I mean, there is a lot of diehard Trojan fans out there who care about USC football. There is a lot of diehard Trojan fans out there who care about USC football, no different than Ohio State fans care about the Buckeyes or how SEC fans care about their teams. And I think that is a huge sell to get the second biggest market and really the most engaged college football market in terms of the top ones where, you know, New York doesn't have a home team school like USC is to Los Angeles. How much is Larry Scott to blame?

What? Yeah. Like, I don't know. That tenure looks worse and worse by the, by the week. I mean, you know, he talked about innovation and all the things. The thing I always go back to with Larry Scott was the cliche I heard a lot in college sports, which is like, keep the main thing the main thing. Larry Scott never knew what the main thing was. And because of that, his conference backslid at a time when everybody else who was on you know who was at the top of the food chain prioritized and he did not know how to do it or he just looked the shiny object too long i'll never forget being on the sideline once of a big game you know how it is because it's all these espn top guys on air not on the air larry comes over, says hello, holds court for a few minutes,

because that's what you're supposed to do as a commissioner. And he walked away. And one of the guys looked at me and was like, he's so full of shit. And I was like, all of these guys, to a certain extent, are selling something. And it was unbelievable how dismissive this person, who was very important, was just like that guy like i was like blown away and it wasn't like i was some guy that was like the executives are saying hey make sure rossillo's around us and hanging out with us but it was it was very telling like i was like wow and honestly you're right the tenure i don't know well we've already done the larry scott rants here two quick things here um one maybe not as quick quickly though on the pac 12 what are they doing now scrambling but what's

the plan i think the biggest plan has got to be try to make sure we can keep phil knight happy or get him happy um you have washington and oregon which have attractive you know they're sizable tv markets they're both strong brands with good history the thing is does the big 12 try to poach whatever they can from the Pac-12 at this point where there's vulnerability? I don't know how much the Big 10 is going to be jumping on those two schools right now. I think if anything, Notre Dame is a priority. Perhaps some of the ACC schools, if they can untangle them from the ground, right? So if you're the Pac-12, do you sit there and I think you have to have all options on the table, including like the,

I don't want to say the doomsday one, but like, do you have schools that are looking like, hey, we may be the Mountain West. Do we look and see what happened to the, if worse comes to worse, do we try to salvage some version of a basketball heavy league where you have the Gonzagas and try to approach that side of it. I think you have to look at all your alternatives because the Pac-12 without USC and UCLA is nothing like what the Pac-12 identity has always been. Those were the iconic programs.

To not have the LATV market, you sit there and say, well, we can try to get Boise state, which has, you know, a decent size following. Do we try to get San Diego state? Do we try, like, there are no really attractive, uh, fallback plans. Now you're just in survival mode at this point. And I think that's the challenge. And like I said, I think they have to open up everything from, is there a possible merger with the big 12 or some kind of hybrid or do we look at you know do we try to approach the mountain west or worse comes to worse we try to look at a basketball model just like the old big east you know when it was a I mean it's a completely different brand

but when one point the big east had was in the power six and had miami and then that went away and now all of a sudden it's this basketball bunch of schools and a lot of them are smaller schools it's very different from the big east as we knew it before the other question i'm going to save for later because it is longer and uh i want you to get back to watching your son play football. So thanks, man. I appreciate the help. Van Lathan joins us today. We have a lot to do today. And Van and I like to chop it up every now and then. We both love college football.

We both hate the expansion stuff. We feel like we age 20 years when we talk about it. So not much disagreement on this one. Let's just try to kind of get where we're at with all this stuff, which is all inevitable, but it doesn't mean we like it. Yeah. Look, I go out to the basketball court. I run around.

I hit sky hooks. I hit hook shots. I shoot the ball, turn around jumpers, and I post people up. I think, hey, I'm young. I'm still young. I can still go. I still got it. I'm feeling spry, jump, touch the backboard.

Not bad. Then I come back into the house and I realize I'm old. How do I realize I'm old? Because I get disgusted at the thought of USC playing Purdue in conference. I can't stomach it.

I can't stomach a conference game between UCLA and Indiana. I can't bring myself to deal with it. We're in Evanston today, where USC is taking on Northwest. I can't, you know what I mean? And so I understand the dynamics, and everybody's going to talk about it, and we understand the way the economics are influencing the sport. And what we're going to get is these massive super conferences, and you just got to be ready for it.

And you got to kind of let the change wash over you. But I had a little bit of sickness in my stomach when Oklahoma and Texas announced they were joining the SEC. They're not a part of our conference. Okay. They played. The thing about me is, look. And the UCLA, USC thing was even worse. Growing up and watching college football,

there were styles everywhere. Styles like in boxing styles, make fights. That's what made a bowl game. Fantastic. Cause the styles clash. That's what made some of the BCS National Champion fantastic. That's what made these big out-of-conference

games fantastic. We didn't know these teams because they represented a different part of the country, a different culture. The Pac-12, pretty boy football. Big 12, shootout football. You know, Pac-12, all of these amazing skill position players, quarterbacks and all of that. The SEC,

we're winning in the trenches and running the ball down your throat and the six foot six 270 pound dns that run a 4 3 40 you know you only get those guys in the south like all of that you know um and so to see that go is and i know that it it seems like i'm harping on it but to see that go is, and I know that it seems like I'm harping on it, but to see that go is to see a large part of not only my initiation into loving college football, but the reason why the sport has stood out from the NFL for so long for me. And there is a little bit of a mourning for that, to know that that's not going to be a thing going forward. Yeah, I totally agree with you on that. that i mean that's why i love college football i do like it more than the nfl because i feel like each area is is like each geographic footprint represents whatever different culture we have in this country like you can see it play out and the southern part of the sec and maybe it's just that you know you're from there and i've got to travel and i've gone to i don't know maybe 60 stadiums and i've got to see it and like every time i go to a new place it'd be like i love that

this feels different even though it's supposed to be the same product and i love that there's that unknown like when oklahoma's's playing Florida in the national championship, you're like Oklahoma is putting together. It felt like they were the first team that said, okay, we have all the five stars, but we're going to run the stuff that all you guys are running just to try to find a way to compete with us. And now we're going to see. Now, granted, there could be another better example of it.

I remember Saban was a little reluctant. There were other teams. Jimbo was – Kevin Sumlin was doing it with a and m um but it just it felt like i don't know what's gonna happen because we don't really get to visit you guys that often you know what i mean like hey i think i know who's gonna win this game i think i know what's gonna happen here but i'm just not sure because there is this separation. And it felt like each conference played whatever reflection of style that they either could recruit to. I mean, the Pac-12, they just don't have the bodies the way the SEC does. And sometimes ACC, depending on which program we're talking about, it's not like Pac-12 game. I knew when it was like those early shootout Big 12 days where it felt like they were doing stuff that was different than others. And Leach is finding a way to win nine games with guys that are getting to Lubbock that just probably wouldn't even be on the radar at other programs. And then the Big 10, which I think is a few different things, but this traditional sense of like the first time I go to Wisconsin, I'm like man i feel like i'm in a time machine here and i go this is this is like going back into the best possible

like going to michigan state felt like going back in time madison felt like going back in time in a way that just now it doesn't mean that when you're in madison on a saturday that it's going to be different but it's just i don't know i don't know if in five years I'll go, oh, you know, actually it wasn't that big of a deal. I don't really care. We're getting further and further away from the things that we loved about the sport. And I'm scared of what that means. Like, what if I told an Alabama fan,

like, you can't, like Auburn, you and Auburn won't play each other for 10 years. Now, granted, that's not going to happen in this case, but like, that's what's starting to happen when you have SC and UCLA moving on a year after Texas and Oklahoma are moving on. I just don't like any of this shit and I don't want to be told I was, I'm wrong about it. So, so here's the thing. One thing that is happening in culture and is part of the connectivity of everything. And part of the, uh everything and part of the internet's effect on our lives

is homogenization. It used to be that as a kid in Louisiana, I would go to California and the kids dressed totally different. Visit my cousins out there, they dress different. They got the dickies on and all of that stuff. I go home now and the kids here are just like the kids where I'm from. They have the Dickies on and all of that stuff. I go home now and the kids here are just like the kids where I'm from.

They have the same haircuts. You know, I remember one time the Duke haircut took over the world. Remember the Duke haircut where you got the Duke starting five haircut where they got the curly fur on top. And you know what I mean? You know, I'm talking about the Jalil, Okafor. Everybody had that cut. Yeah.

I'm looking around. I'm looking around. I was like, you got to stop getting hair cut like you're going to Duke. Everyone, like, relax. It's the same haircut. Or when the Mohawk. Everywhere I go, everyone had a Mohawk. I'm like, what the hell?

When is it going to stop? Or when girls were shaving half of their head off and leaving their hair on top. All of these different waves were everywhere. Not just like in one place. I'll say all that to say it's hard for me to believe that the homogenization of college football isn't coming. It has to, to a degree, if this expansion, like if it, if it's going to be successful, it like what, what happens is familiarity in teams breeds some similarity and breeds you kind of understanding what it is that a team does, right? And for me, I remember some of the biggest wild moments of watching

college football to me, and it was because it was the unexpected that the unknown breed. Like I remember when Ohio State took on Florida. I think that was the 07 National Championship. 06 National Championship. I can't remember. It was Troy Smith and Hartline and all of those guys. They were up against the Chris Leak Florida team.

He was on his way marching to the Heisman Trophy winner. All of that stuff. Take in, yeah. Yeah, take in, yeah. And Florida blew their doors off, right? It's something that most people weren't expecting. They had been watching the SEC the whole year.

They didn't understand that team. And for me, knowing that this expansion means that these guys are going to be more interconnected, I don't see how in the long run. In the short term, I'm sure. I don't see how in the long run that this doesn't, to a degree, take away some of the mystique of the sport. I could be wrong. Like, I could definitely be wrong. Like I could definitely be wrong. I don't see how it doesn't take away some of that. That infrequency that I don't know if I'm finding the right word that that that sort of mystery that we're talking about. If you have two 20 team conferences, it's just to me, it would have to leave.

It would have to go away. And I find myself very afraid of that. Yeah, and then there's a bunch of different parts of this. But when I think about Nebraska football, I used to think a certain thing. I don't even know what is it. You know what I mean? What is it? What's its identifiable trait other than losing games recently? When I think about A&M and Texas not playing each other around Thanksgiving every year

and that game, they even try to get it back in the books. They're like, hey, the schedule's full. There's different ADs now. Now it's going to come back once they're in the same conference. But if anybody says, well, this is the future and you won't care in five years and it's too important and the money and all these different things, I'm like, well, then I lose. I lose every argument. I'm not arguing against what it means for revenue. I'm arguing against if you go through all of the movements, like, do you end up at the end of it with every fan base going? I'm glad I'm glad this happened.

I'm glad we did this. Or I actually ended up missing what we used to have. And then maybe it just takes years to move on from that. I also think there's another part of it that's selfishly motivated, but it's survival where you'll have a lot of fan bases that just have apathy, but they're thrilled that they're at least connected to the Big Ten and the SEC where it's like, well, as much as I don't like this or it's not my preference, this isn't anything I necessarily wanted,

at least I'll be in one of those conferences that is still considered. What we look like we're going to have here very soon is is an ESPN versus Fox and multimedia partners oh that's gonna be that's what it is yeah we're careening towards that it's the networks themselves that are at war not even so much the teams on the field anymore look everybody got to get money bro I get it I get everybody got to get money I'm not even I'm not even doing that. You know what? We need the Pac-12. The Pac-12 is an important football conference. It represents an entire coast.

It represents an entire sensibility. And to know that, and I'm not dissing any of these schools, the Pac-12 is about to have to look at some schools to enter the conference that aren't traditional Pac-12 powers, and it's just going to be less relevant football. Oregon's going to look for a way out. You're going to look for other teams that might possibly look for ways to get to some of this money. They're not going to stand pat. Oregon has too much, they have too rich of a booster base,

too much tradition, too big of a national imprint. They're not going to stay. And now that's totally changed. Look, there's something to be said with all of the X's and O's, the dollars and cents notwithstanding. There's something to be said to where, like, we talk about change and we normally attribute change with, you know, something progressing or evolving or whatever. I don't think right now, the era of college football that we're in, I don't think anybody knows whether or not the sport is changing for the better. And that's everything. It doesn't matter.

And, like, it's a fucked up situation to be in because I'm in support with the kids getting paid, right? It's too long that they were getting their asses kicked. But NIL has been handled so terribly that every single time I can't even look at college football recruiting anymore because every single time I try to look at recruiting these recruiting wars used to be great I'm hearing talk about rumors about how much money some kid is getting and it's changing the whole fucking thing and it's not I can't blame the kid and their parents I don't know who to blame I don't know who to blame for any of this and it's like it's just weird you know getting on and growing up and just kind of figuring out, stomping my foot, barking at the moon, whatever us old guys do. Maybe I'll start playing Pinochle.

Maybe I'll start doing lawn bowling, you know, since I'm doing this much complaining. You ever see those guys lawn bowling? I've seen some videos, yeah. Yeah, Ryan, maybe me and you should start. Look, we're going to have our Saturdays, you know. We're going to still watch college football, but maybe Rosillo and Latham, lawn bowlers.

That's something I can get behind as an old guy who likes to complain because I sound like such a bitch right now. We both do. I mean, we were laughing on the phone. I go, this conversation immediately ages both of us 20 years. But the NIL thing is good. There's a dichotomy there because you had all of the people that were in charge screaming that the NIL would ruin a college football and their own

movements, their own expansion, realignment, whatever you want to call it anymore is ruining it. Or the version of it that I love far more than a kid getting paid. And by the way, some of these NIL deals, when you dig in and you start to really ask around,

there's a, it's almost NFL free agency. There's a sticker shock number that makes it out publicly. A lot of these kids are not, this isn't some check that's getting cut for 9 million or 10 million. There's a lot of like chances.

But here's another good comparison. I went to Elite 11, right, last week. Shout out to Elite 11 for inviting me again this year. It's one of my favorite things I get to do. I see the high school kids throw. I see the college kids throw. You just kind of bullshit and talk about stuff. One of the coaches was like, pay attention

when the high school kids introduce themselves. I was like, all right. He goes, half of them will say and I'll just pick LSU because there wasn't a kid throwing that was going to LSU. So I don't want to cause any shit. But kid steps up and be like, I'm currently committed to LSU. Currently committed.

You never know. You're supposed to be there. And it's just understood in the way they describe their situation that it's like, well, I am currently. And it's like, man, does LSU know that this is the phrasing on this thing? And so here the kids always get beat up. The adults always are worried about like we have a hard time. And I don't even think it's specific to this country. But adults have a real hard time with kids winning.

They just do. Okay. country but adults have a real hard time with kids winning they just of course okay and or especially if they have the power and the leveraging in it they like obviously that's not that's completely that's that's counterintuitive to the way we've like exactly this is right this is not new this is not this is not uh me pretending that this is insightful i'm just saying like we don't like... Whenever I... Transferring, not that long ago, I remember working with a bunch of people and they would just be like,

are these kids transferring? And then I kind of was like, are they right? Am I right? Do I just have an open mind? Am I undecided and all this stuff? But back to the original point, the NIL is the devil, right? The NIL is the devil?

No, man. This whole conference shuffling thing and what the end game... Your TV deals are going to be massive. Big Ten's going to be renegotiating now, adding in UCLA and USC. I do wonder in the mold of what the super conferences could look like

if we have two 20-team conferences. First of all, you're going to have to change the entire playoff voting committee conversation because I'm going to be arguing some three lost teams over some undefeated champs. We have to expand the playoff, which they did not want to do. They're going to anyway. So let's get ourselves right. So they're going to have, well, if you have the two 2010 conferences, you have to expand the playoff, man.

There's just no way around it, right? So the question is, at the end of it, how big does the playoff get there's just no way around it right so the question is how big at the end of it how big does the playoff get to ron rossillo how many teams are in the college football playoff i never i didn't even want to expand it in the first place because i felt like it was important this is my little riff here when you start opening up to eight plus teams and they start saying like what did we just play a season for like what's the point of this and you say well in the nfl i actually don't like it in the nfl when a team's barely over 500 then has a one and done chance to win a super bowl i don't really understand the point of that but

again i know i'm on the losing side of the argument and nobody wants to agree with me on that one what i wonder is like there's a big 10 go wait a minute how the fuck is rutgers in here like do we do we realign and then also sort of they're going to kick Rutgers out. Relegate this too. Rutgers being in the Big Ten, if they get to stay through, this will be one of the most strategic, one of the smartest and how the hell did that happen?

The people from Rutgers should be running more important things than a college. There's a bunch of people in New Jersey right now who a couple of days ago were like yeah baby we got here right at the right time exactly for the money and now they're freaking out you know what i mean they're freaking out it's like the time my dad told me about nuclear war when i was seven don't know why he shared it with me not sure not sure why he shared it with me we Not sure. Not sure why he shared it with me. We're watching Silverado. Great movie. Kevin Costner, Danny Glover,

Jeff Goldblum, you know, Lawrence Kasdan, Kevin Kline. We're watching Silverado. My father looks at me. God rest his soul. My dad goes, the world's going to be just like that one day. I'm like, what? What do you mean? The world's going to be just like that again. Just like what? It's like horses and

carriages and all of that, saloons and stuff. I'm like, why? That's like a long time ago. He goes, oh, because Reagan going to drop that bomb. I was like, what? Who's going to drop what? I never forget it. His face lights up.

He goes, oh, you didn't know this. Okay, cool. So, you know, the Russians, they got bombs right and then like we got bombs and if they shoot all of their bombs and we shoot all of our bombs it'll cause like a chain reaction and everything on earth will be destroyed and i don't know what he thought I was going to think of this, but I'm like, God, damn. Like my anxiety was born that day. You just did that to the people in New Jersey. You just did that to Rutgers. Rutgers wasn't even thinking about the nuclear explosion of their team being kicked out the Big Ten.

Now they're about to text the Big Ten commissioner like, yo, you up? How are things? I didn't mean to do that as a kid of the 80s as well. Although, when I grew up, we were blaming Gorbachev. So I don't know why your dad went with Reagan. No, no, no, no, no, no.

I think he went with Reagan because it wasn't a political thing. I think he went with Reagan just because he was talking about just the way that it would happen he was just letting me know like my dad like i don't think he my dad didn't give a fuck about any of that shit so i don't think i don't think i don't think he was i don't think he meant it as a political thing i think he was just saying he didn't fucking care about that do you think do you think we'll get to this and more people will just get over it like we do

with so many other things where it's like you know the patches on jerseys and you're like oh like that can't happen and then you don't even notice them anymore um this is bigger because you're going to be reminded of it every saturday uh where i don't even think you see the patches and there's plenty of other examples I could use to be like, as soon as something's announced, be like, Oh, that's terrible.

It's terrible. It's terrible. But I felt really strongly about this. I felt strongly about this 10 years ago. I feel strongly about it now. Yeah. And you know, I would ask around like if,

if Oregon ends up leaving. Okay. So that Oregon state rivalry is done. If Washington were to leave, okay. Washington state rivalry is done. We've had all these other things that I'm going to mention on the podcast today.

All of these fan bases that go, this one game that I cared about, this thing that I love, it doesn't mean anything anymore. And we're all just supposed to be okay with it. I don't know. I don't know if there'll ever be a moment going, hey, maybe this wasn't really worth it.

If all the money was out there, why did we have to package up as the same thing? If all the money was out there, why couldn't we figure out a way to do this? And the problem is that there's never going to be one person that's in charge of college sports. It's never going to be one person that's in charge of just say college football because no universities would say, yeah, let's elect somebody to be in charge of all the stuff that we want to do selfishly. If we have something to sell, no one does that. Yeah. So that's an interesting question.

Cause I think about other sports. I think about how this affects basketball. We talked a little bit about this, uh, of all the conferences, the conferences I enjoy watching PAC 12 basketball the most, you know what I mean? Um,

UCLA, Arizona, you know, I, I love watching the, the way that plays out in the history behind that and you know just how the sports played uh i think the it'll be a testament to just our love for the sport how quickly we you know move on from hating this idea you know uh saturday's coming i'm watching college football in part.

I'm not just watching the LSU game, I'm watching every single game that I can watch, okay? That's not going to change. And I wonder what kind of fan I'll be going forward. Like at the end of eight men out, when the guy sitting in the stands watching Shulish Joe Jackson play, and he's bemoaning how great Shulis Joe Jackson was. Is that how I'm going to watch UCLA-Purdue?

That didn't used to happen. There used to be these amazing conferences on the West Coast where people went back and forth and scored 50 points and all of that. I wonder if that's going to be the thing. I wonder if I'm going to care, but I do know one thing. I know definitively, definitively that college football in the near future will not be the college football of my youth. And sometimes part of growing up is understanding that things are not the things of your youth. Hey, Bill Cosby is not the Bill Cosby of my youth, you know? And there's an ugly part to all of this. And like, I wonder if just to be honest with you and not to get, not go too far with it i wonder if i can enjoy it the same if it looks totally different now i won't love it any less but just i wonder if every time

an argument's brought up or if every time now when we're talking about the playoff because we talk about three lost team getting in the playoff i'm an lsu right? You're bringing two powerhouses into our conference. You're making the SEC West, which is arguably the toughest place to play in the entire country. And you're bringing Texas into it, you know? And we have to deal with all of their shit. And the fact that they just got a five-star out of New Iberia to come to their school. So things are even tougher. And the conference that, like, where you get your bones beat in, you know what I mean?

Nobody's healthy. We're all the walking wounded by the end. It's tougher. It's like that in the Big Ten as well, you know? So don't we deserve? If we have three losses, if we have two losses, now, before losses now before it's like hey we're out except for that one fluke year but don't we deserve to be in the playoff being that you added all this firepower to where we're going so everything changes I don't know if I'll care uh but I know

I'll care now and I know that I'll always know that college football is going to be basically different forever. And we're in the great unknown with all of this stuff. And it just, it just depends on how they execute it. But you know, everybody's getting paid, man. Can we finish on something else?

Sure. Do black guys that play basketball not want to play in Toronto? Oh, it just is so interesting. So let me tell you something. The way you just looked at me, you were like, where's this going? I let it inward slip

because I didn't know where the fuck this was going. I didn't know where this was going. You know, this is what I'll say about that. Because there's been a discourse. So this is, I'm going to get serious for a second. Some of my friends in Canada, there's been a discourse here.

And the discourse is, in a diaspora, black people from all over, In a diaspora, black people from all over, there are sometimes disagreements. There are intense cultural differences that exist between black people that exist not only from Africa to the islands to wherever black people exist to Canada. There are cultural differences hugely between where I'm from, even though things are becoming more homogenized and in New York, talk different, whatever, whatever. Those differences are becoming less every day,

but they still exist. So when Chris Broussard said what he said, there were people that took what Chris Broussard said and took it as a value judgment on how black Americans view Toronto. A friend of mine who I went back and forth with on Twitter about it said that sometimes American exceptionalism taints Black Americans' understanding of other black people's experiences all over the world um i haven't experienced that but i don't want to take that experience from him i don't want to

say that that's not true because i don't want to like uh in any way yeah take away from this life experience or minimize it at all but i will say this the The culture in Toronto is different than the culture in New York City. It is like like there are. I don't know whether or not black guys like Toronto. I've never heard that. We don't like it. I like, you know, I've never heard that. Like, that's not a place we want to live. I'm not sure, you know, who's telling Broussard. Maybe Broussard is maybe KD is telling them that when they text or when they don't text. I don't know. But I like I don't like I don't know what's going on there. But I will say that saying that things are different for black Americans and that black Americans might have to adjust to the culture in Toronto is not insulting in and of itself.

Toronto is not insulting in and of itself. It's when, when he said it's not America, I think people took that as him saying, Hey, in some way it's less than Toronto is fucking dope as hell. It is, it is an amazing place to visit. It is an amazing place to party.

It's an amazing place to be. If you're saying that, like as a, as a black dude from Silver Springs, Maryland, that's been living in Oklahoma City or Brooklyn or San Francisco, that there might be an adjustment period, then there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with that at all. There would be an adjustment period if he had to play in London.

There'd be an adjustment period if he had to play in Mexico City. There'd be an adjustment period. And if you're saying that not all spoiled NBA stars that might happen to be black want to go through an adjustment period at 34, that might also be true. I don't know. I haven't had those conversations. But I've never heard it. I don't know that it's a thing, but I do know that I don't think that Chris Broussard, not to living in a foreign country. And Canada is a foreign country. Things are going to be just a tick different. And when you go to Toronto, they are just a tick different. They're great. They're amazing. I spent some time up there, but they're a little bit different. But i think one trip to caravana if you've never been uh can change any

brothers uh opinion of toronto because in august baby if you're up there if katie's up there for caravana he's never gonna leave we're gonna want to leave man but um you you you'd be surprised the diaspora war it was some it was some black on black canadian on american violence on twitter yesterday i was kind of getting kind of pissed well look broussard didn't do a good job of making his point yeah so there was that and then it turns into did he just insult toronto and then person from toronto says how can somebody say toronto isn't awesome because anybody's spent time in toronto's gonna tell you it's awesome and it's also arguably like the most diverse city is on the continent. So it is amazing. But I also don't think it was a total reach for Broussard to suggest that some

black American players without having any understanding of, of what it is in Toronto of going like, well, maybe I'd rather just stay in the States. I don't think that that is some make-believe hurdle, despite the fact that Masai is one of the best five GMs, if not higher. Their development is terrific. They continue to find a way to... It's a really well-run basketball team. But I think it would be dismissive to the reality that there's probably plenty of players like i don't play in canada black players white players that might just for whatever reason just don't want to live in canada and that's not to say that can they may

not even have a good reason other than just like i don't want to do that you know so i i think that's kind of what he was trying to say and maybe it was durant specific i don't know the relationship between the two i don't i don't know i don't know but it was weird and what it turned into so i didn't want you to speak for all of black america but i don't know i'm not speaking i'm not speaking for all black americans because i you know i got got my ass kicked for that enough but what i what i was like well like what what i've already been down that road my friend um but what i will say is like like, you know, it's a little further. It's a little – it's cold.

You know what I mean? So I'm not in any way saying – like, there's some brothers that – some people, should I say, that probably would rather play in, I don't know, even in – someplace here in America. It's not that big of a deal. I think what Broussard said, it ain't America. That made it seem like he was saying it was something less than, and I don't know that that's the overall takeaway of what he was trying to say.

Well said. Van Lathan, Ringer, Higher Learning Podcast, two days a week, and Midnight Boys. What else is going on with that? The Midnight Boys is out. We're doing all kinds of different things. Geek, Marvel, fandom, Higher Learning is on. We are really going up. But I found a name for our duo.

Okay. We're the Lawn Bowlers. The Lawn Bowlers. Let's workshop that a bit. Lawn Bowlers. Come on, man. Priscilla, Lathan, the Lawn Bowlers. the lawn bowlers let's workshop that a bit lawn come on man rassilo lathan the lawn bowlers we're the lawn bowlers think about first of all i gotta do more research on this i'm not signing off on anything i'm just not signing you know i love you but i'm just not signing off on anything without further research all right my man. All right. Thanks, man. Peace.

You want details? Bye. I drive a Ferrari 355 Cabriolet. What's up? I have a ridiculous house in the South Fork. I have every toy you can possibly imagine. And best of all, kids, I am liquid. So now you know what's possible.

Let me tell you what's required. Life advice. Life advice, rr at gmail.com. Just want to check in with the gang post 4th of July. I tried not to call Saruti during the holiday week, but we ended up on the phone about something, which I think was fine. You didn't have a lot going on, right, Saruti? No, I went to dinner. We were talking about what our plans were.

And I don't know. It was actually the perfect timing, though, because it's not a monday you get this awesome long weekend but i don't know i didn't have a lot of buddies doing so we just kind of went out to dinner and hung out i think you did the same right yeah very low key i mean look i had to work friday night sunday morning and then ready for today so it's not like i don't love america but you know i just had other stuff on. Although we had fireworks outside the house and then they kept going off. I was doing one of those weird, you know, I fell asleep, you know, whatever. I don't stay up as late now on the West Coast as I used to back in the East Coast, uh, just for the way my clock works and schedule. And I kind of like to get up early and get my shit done before I even start the pod.

But, uh, I was having one of those like fall asleep for an hour and a half and then thinking you'd already slept six hours, which kind of good but also not because then you're like wait now what do i do and then guys started letting off fireworks at 1 a.m and then 3 a.m but i gotta tell you though i try to i try to always have a bit of a like hey i would have done the exact same thing so i'm not gonna freak out about this you know although although in my 20s i would have not lived in this neighborhood i think that's pretty that's true that's fair 3am fireworks though i don't know if i could you can't justify that that's stupid no i'm not saying it's right but i'm not calling the cops yeah oh yeah i mean

come on what what narcs come on it's once a year i don't know i'm not reading any of the 10 reasons why you should never light out fireworks because it makes squirrels sad and dogs don't know what's going on. It's once a year. I get it if it's Christmas or something. It's like, all right, this isn't really a fireworks holiday, but this is the fireworks holiday. So it's fine. It's all fine on July 4th for me. Kyle being pro fireworks was one of the least surprising things on the pod today.

I'm with you, though, Kyle. The what about the dog tweets? A lot of what about the dogs? I think there's some cautious, some helpful hey, don't forget about our little furry friends and stuff, but then when it starts turning and there's going to be something else that freaks your

dog out. Big time. They don't just sit around totally calm for 364 and then you know the nation's birthday is like oh you know they get together and dog read it being like oh this fucking day again coming up so yeah uh you got any good firework stories for us kyle i'd imagine oh just some scary ones you know i pretty much won't light fireworks myself anymore um you know got got out of there by the skin of my teeth a couple times. Be careful with the mortars because sometimes that little plastic tube they come in, it blows right apart for some reason.

I don't know why they give you a plastic tube and then you got to make a tube and then the tube's not right and then it doesn't go high enough and everybody's ducking for cover. So it's been a year since I've lit a firework. So I'll stay with that. I don't like messing around. Although I will have a Roman candle war if that's ever on the table. But other than that, I pretty much just stay away from the big booms. Let somebody else do that.

We used to stick bottle rockets into the end of wiffle ball bats and just fire them at each other when we were junior high. I think it was. It turned out great. Yeah. I think one person was like, hey, if you're going to do that, put goggles on. Loser.

Hey, the bat is the precaution. It's four feet away from me. That's about as good as you're going to get with kids. Those things would fly out of a wiffle ball bat and you'd just be sitting there. You might have done it at night so it was a little safer. Okay. Sure.

Yeah. That's excellent. Yeah. Keep telling yourself that. So here's what we got. We got a lot of follow-ups to the dad, the realtor. A lot of follow-ups.

I like to share them because there could be just a spinoff called The Community. Although I think that TV show had its run. We could just read other responses. I don't know. I don't know how well they'll do. Maybe top five.

All right. Anyway. That was a joke for very, very few people. Okay. We got a guy checking in. No stats. My mom's a realtor as well. I'm promised to buy my wife and I new fans. We bought her a new home.

For those that don't know, if you buy a house, a lot of times a realtor will buy you a gift off the commission they made. I don't feel like debating that. Sometimes it happens. Sometimes it doesn't. I think it happens a lot. It depends. Does your wife buy gifts for a buyer? I don't feel like debating that. Sometimes it happens. Sometimes it doesn't. I think it happens a lot. Depends. Yeah.

Does your wife buy gifts for a buyer? Saruti? Definitely. Yep. Yeah. There we go. Almost all the time. Yep.

Usually gift cards, but yeah. We got a realtor husband here. Kind of like girl dad. Hashtag realtor husband. You see, we get that one trending. Just a huge month of closures be like realtor husband and just a picture of you outside like a with like touching a sign or pointing to it get that going let us know how that goes all right so uh mom was supposed to buy him fans

never followed through it was always let me know what fans you want when i would send a fan, you would send her pictures of the fan. I would like, oh yeah, I guess so. It never felt super authentic or that she actually wanted to buy them. It was also a new build that we had to wait for. So she didn't exactly show us all the options. Oh, I see. New build, probably a ceiling fan. So he'd be like, hey, this is the one that I want.

Granted, houses were in limited supply, but we felt like we got lower quality service. To add on to this, my friends bought a house through her and she promised a finder's fee that she also never followed through with. All while bragging about how much money she has in the bank. $100,000.

It is sometimes better to separate business and family. All right. There's just a lot of problems with this email, how it was written. So he wasn't asking for any advice. It's just his mom doesn't follow through with shit. Sometimes it's sex to say that. There's people in our lives.

They're not going to follow through. Sometimes it's your mom. I'm not sure. Okay. This one annoyed me, so that's why I hit it. Love the segment. Felt like you guys screwed over the wife on that realtor one. No, they can't use his dad if he's going to cost them 50K,

but your feedback made it seem like blaming his wife is the other option. Ultimately, it's his dad. He needs to address it as soft as he can be, but make it like 100% his decision. You can't let your dislike for confrontation be the reason why your wife's relationship with her in-laws is strained any more than it already needs to be with his decision. You can't let her, you can't let your dislike for confrontation be the reason why your wife's relationship with her in-laws is strained any more than it already

needs to be with this decision. I don't think we were blaming the wife here. Correct. I think we were just providing an out through the wife, a wife who would probably

love the idea because she's like anything to not use your dad. And if it softens the blow, yeah, so we weren't wife blaming here. All right, last one. This was actually the only one that's actually blow. Yeah, so we weren't wife-blaming here. All right, last one. This was actually the only one that's actually important.

Pete checking in. This is smart. This is smart. I should have thought of this, but we don't cover it all. We never promise to cover 100% of your options, whether it be college football or life advice. I double-checked the original paperwork and make sure he didn't just take it out at closing.

Normally, real estate agents get 3% for 6% total. So if it's below that, it means he took it out and they were not paying interest on that as well. Double win. It is worth checking the closing docs. My guess is he either did or he knew he didn't or why would his dad be like, hey, just so you saw on the closing doc, my guess is he either did or he knew he didn't. Or why would his dad be like, hey, just so you saw on the closing doc, I didn't take out. Yes, when you look through every

piece of closing doc, you look through all of it, you're like, okay, I'm good. I'm good. One time, randomly, a place sent me double on the paperwork, not the check. And it was a quick win for your boy. I was like, oh, wait. I was like, that's sick. But I knew it was wrong because I was pretty on top of it. I was like, that doesn't make it. And then she calls back. She's like, hey, actually, it's half. I was like, you shouldn't do that.

You shouldn't send out closing docs with double the money coming back to the owner. She's like, yeah, but it was a mistake, whatever. Yeah, so the closing doc thing, we're only bringing it up, but I think we already probably know. Suri wants to chomp on this one, so go for it. No, it's a good observation.

I would bet a lot of money that did not a lot of money in this case yeah yeah yeah yeah but it was brought up numerous times so just in case you hadn't thought of it because we didn't say it but um i think it'd be weird to do that if you're the dad and then never bring it up like you'd want to be like hey did you see that but yeah just to be safe let us know how that goes okay let's get back to what we do all right uh our guys from toronto i guess uh turn 30 city in the news yeah city in the news that city's been in the crosshairs the last couple days uh i was in a serious relationship for four and a half years that I can probably report

ended very amicably. I've been single for about a year now. Proud of my last relationship. Very single, very active and extremely shallow. Wow. Okay. I'll start. I actually love the start of this email. In my defense,

I was clubbing, bar hopping, not exactly looking for my future wife. Although I have plenty of faults, I can say that treating people well and not being an asshole is something I can stay claimed to. Congrats to you. This landed well with girls, hence very active. All right, dude. I was like, dude, dude, we get it. Now, I think this guy's going to be all right. So, I've never even thought of breaking a core tenant, which is being good to people, to play the prick card when trying to get it. Now, I think this guy's going to be alright. So, I've never even thought of breaking a core tenet,

which is being good to people, to play the prick card when trying to get girls. After a lot of fun single years, I met a girl. We had a really great run. And ultimately, there just wasn't enough spark left to make sense of continuing on. So, I became single, luckily with no painful memories

or ex-girlfriend hardships to get over. I don't mean for that piece to sound casual. More than aware that it's a fucking miracle occurrence these days. Before we get to the current single phase, I wanted to call out, I heard your recent comment about how guys my age should know whether or not they're generally attractive to other people. Because I heard that. I feel comfortable sharing that I'm lucky to say that I fall into the generally attracted to bucket and acknowledge that had a lot to do with the success in the jungle. How much do you guys hate this guy

right now? I mean, this is a rough start. Were they all nines and tens, dude? I mean, Jesus Christ. I'm happy you're happy. You're like, no, wait. It gets better. I think you like this guy. He's super hot. Okay, cool. Also, I took a long, hard look in the mirror and I look pretty great

uh that's perfect so rudy just the fact that it's like no no you're gonna be fine like oh on top of that um uh yeah one sentence like hey i do really well pretty hot all right i i don't know he's treating people nice let's give him credit for that and there's some self-awareness in here. Golden rule. Right now, he says these are the early days being back out there. When I first got back out there, I knew it was going to be rusty. Four and a half years out of the game

will put anyone a bit on edge. Again, this guy's 30 now. I'm in a bar all of a sudden with much younger girls, 23, 27. By the way, if you're 30, 27 is not much younger. Don't worry about it, pal. I don't want to hear shit about 27. 23s. I don't know. It just depends on how you feel.

I quickly got to jitters, but it's obviously very different now since I'm not trying to be as much of an idiot as I was the last time I was single. I started seeing a very attractive shocking 25 year old, and as we got to the second month of seeing each other she basically ghosted me oh kyle's like yes this obviously stung more out of ego than me being upset about losing the

person but nonetheless as i forged ahead i continued to keep my mo of just being good to people and treating them right i met another girl who's a little bit older 27 the hottest girl i've ever met just kidding uh and i kid you fucking not the exact same thing happened keep in mind there was no dramatic event or significant conversation that went badly etc in either case uh at this point i started to think fuck me if i lost it the fuck is going on i head back out i tell myself okay just do your thing and don't stress out about finding this is perfect just have fun continuing my approach of being a good guy etc i am finding absolutely zero luck even when gunning for a lowly one night stand all right so the problem is that now your

ego's dented after the previous two and then you know you just don't have the same confidence right now and i'm just telling you they the women know they just know all right so i now have a decision to make should i try the whole asshole approach? These girls seem so different now. Maybe it's the only move. No, you're different now. Remember that. It's like when my friends go, Vegas is different. It's like, no, you're different.

You're different, which is what's supposed to happen. You were supposed to be different. So it's back to the question. Can I take on the approach? Context, I appreciate you're probably thinking, who the fuck is this psycho who can just become an asshole to snap up his fingers? But I work in an industry and have a role if i shared i'd immediately outed all right so never mind we're not going to do that uh that he doesn't share it anyway uh this requires me to become quite prickly at times this guy ninja and i've learned how to

apply that mindset when needed in specific situations outside work i immediately have a ton of success using this. And basically every girl I've gone out with has wanted to be more long-term. This royally fucks with me as I'm currently sitting here thinking, do I want to continue seeing something who seemingly likes me when I act like the person I strive not to be? Well-written email, by the way. I definitely don't enjoy taking on this approach, but I also don't love the idea of being ghosted again. I can easily just run into an odd stretch. I realize people are timing elusive and unpredictable, but here

I am pondering, should I just be an asshole? All right. This is one of the all-timers here. Not the email itself, but yes, this is something a lot of guys, you're younger, you try to be nice to people, you see people acting like assholes the cool guys and then you're like maybe i'll try to do this you want to know why i know because this is what i did all right i got burned a couple times i was super nice to everybody i got burned and then i was like it seems like all these girls like all the guys that are like the meanest or aloof or don't pay attention to them because we do have some weird thing this is specific to men or women it's both of us wanting something we can't have So if you try to give off that vibe while also sort of just sprinkling in little bits of interest,

you can make it work to your advantage. And that's what I ended up doing and it fucking worked. But the weird thing is you start to get into the real world and then you find somebody who actually cares for you and loves you unconditionally, which is what happened to me 20 years ago and i'm still like i've got this sort of college guy mode still hanging on and you know eventually she snaps out of the the the fog and it's like this guy's kind of a dick and then she doesn't like you anymore and you know then you realize okay some fucking german guy's sneaking in all right i'm not gonna do that rant but the point is is i get the dilemma because it seems like there's so many times where you go it feels like all these guys are winning that are actually not trying to be nice guys and i don't know how everybody feels

about karma i feel like karma is kind of like s Claus for adults. If it were totally true, sometimes I want to believe in it, but man, in my business, I see so many assholes win that I'm like, I don't know if I believe in it, man. I don't know that I believe in karma. enough to think, hey, if I just treat people the right way, not try to play all these games, not do all this different shit, then it's all going to work out. And here's the thing, it's probably going to work out for you because you are super hot apparently. All right. So you're also talking to, you know, this is where the age thing can be like when you said much younger, when you're 30, it's 27 to me. I'm like, what are you talking about? But you could, you could also, if you're starting to talk to 23-year-old girls who are just out of college and you're 30 and you're thinking about long-term and they're still thinking about Todd from lacrosse, there's going to be an emotional disconnect that's probably there that could be greater than just, say, 40 to 30 years old, 30 to 23. than just say like 40 to 30 years old, 30 to 23. Like that's a year out of college.

Whatever you're doing is not what you're going to be doing. And you obviously are a little bit more established. So there's probably a bit of a disconnect there with you that you may not even realize. So I'm not telling you to be a dick. I'm not. I would just say you need to kind of re-evaluate what it is you want out of this and not put so much pressure on yourself.

Because if these other two girls have one, if they've both ghosted you, I don't know what it is that you could be doing. By the way, the girl that you dated, is she dating anyone now? Is that guy awesome or is he terrible? Are you overvaluing your own market worth on this one? Just all the things you kind of have to ask yourself. You know what I'm saying? Look, I looked at myself the other day in a mirror. I was like, dude, you aren't hot. It wasn't great. It wasn't great. But I was like, all right.

You know what I mean? Like, I had to deal with it. I had to accept it. Was it the ankle? Was this like a, I mean, come on. Just having a bad day. Just having a bad day. And so, I don't know that we've really, I want get kyle and steven here because i'm starting to ramble

anyway so go ahead kyle you go first thing ryan you got nice eyes and you got a boat so don't ever let that hold you down and two i'm glad this guy has a little bit of a story arc at least it sounded like for the first i don't know 55 of that email it's like everything's been going great i've i even thought about it and yeah i'm i'm actually hot too it's not just that i'm nice like it's actually i really i really kind of wanted to fight this guy for the first paragraph well i didn't realize it was going to be like i've actually hit a rough patch and i mean for whatever reason you hit a rough patch when i came to la i was like what am i doing this wrong but like i don't know it just felt like i didn't know anybody and everyone i was talking to was always like oh and and this is what i've been doing and this is

what i know and this is what i'm working on i And this is what I know. And this is what I'm working on. I was like, I don't know. I, I drive around and pick up coffee and drop off equipment. Like that's kind of my deal. I don't really have any. So I, I had a, I had a, like a rough, probably six months when I got here, I was like, am I doing this wrong? I thought it was doing pretty well, you know, in college and whatever. But I mean, it sounds like it doesn't really matter the reason you just having a rough patch and it builds character. And I mean, I think it's important for you to be able to sleep at night and it sounds like the another positive to put in your positives bucket is that you actually don't want to be an asshole just because it might work out you know for you to get a girl so i think i think everything's fine this this

can't last forever especially if you're 30s and a self-proclaimed hottie so i think you're fine dude i would i would say just kind of stop thinking about it now that's the advice all of us can give everybody else it's super easy to do that hey stop thinking about it but we're not that person which is always one of my biggest problems with people giving everybody like telling you know hey this is how i feel emotionally and it's like oh you're gonna tell me how i'm supposed to feel like you don't have the same emotional attachment that i do so all of your words words, like with good meaning and they might be the right ones. Like I can't get through it, but it sounds like, Hey man, a lot of things are working out for you. Build the confidence back up. Don't worry about these things. None of it mattered. You didn't

care about these other two girls. You admitted it. It's more of an ego thing. I've lost relationships where I was like, wait, do I care about the person or do I care about myself and i was like yeah the l and it was like oh wait this has nothing even to do with this literally has nothing to do with her this has everything to do with me and so when you start going through all those things like if you're going out having to talk yourself in like there's two guys on in a tie game in the eighth inning you're already fucked yeah all right go out there and not think about any of this stuff and stop. Like, are you meeting somebody then going like, okay, well, could I marry her? Oh, I wonder if she'd be a good mom.

What's her dad do? Oh, does she have cool brothers or shitty brothers? What town do they have? Beach house. You know what I mean? Like, if you start doing all these things and you first start meeting people, you can work yourself up into this thing that you put off a vibe that's not all that attractive. I know you're going to jump in here real quick. I'll tell you, I don't know.

It was like a year or so ago. I think things are just starting to open up a little bit. People were kind of milling around. I was standing next to this guy who's not a friend, but I sort of know who he is. He's just one of those dudes that he's not thinking about anything when he goes out. He's a good looking guy. He's not the hottest dude ever. Just doesn't think about anything. I can just tell because he'll talk to me and he'll just say stuff. And there was this really attractive woman that was there and everybody was looking at her. And the guy could have been lying but i don't

think he was lying and he was just like basically the guy had no concept that he was supposed to think about anything other than trying to meet this girl and he ended up meeting her because he didn't care about anything else he didn't think about any of these other things he wasn't second guessing himself he was so delusional And I would say arguably not that smart to even come up with the idea that he was supposed to question anything he was doing. Fucking magician, man. Yeah. I would just say you have to know who you are too. Like I was never the guy that could be a dick or, you know, I wasn't very mysterious. I was just like kind of a nice guy. I tried to be a nice guy. And like that works for some girls. It doesn't work for all the girls. So if you're

like, Hey, I need to be more of a dick and that's not who you are as a person that's not going to be good for you so i i would i i would recommend not doing that if it doesn't if it's not like a natural thing for you but the confidence thing is wow because i mean it reminds me it's like it's like derrick white in the finals because look like what happens like he he looks awesome he looks like he's a game changer for the celtics he has a couple bad games and he's like he cannot even play in the series like You don't want to be Derek White in this situation. Go back to the basics. What do you do? You said this.

You're a good looking dude. Be the good looking dude who's nice. A lot of girls are still going to be into that. Be confident in that lane. You don't have to change who you are just because you had two girls potentially ghost you. It's not like a huge sample size either. It might have just been two girls that were on a completely different page than you.

And it doesn't mean anything for you long term. So I don't know why you have to... I understand why you're kind of questioning what your move is or what your go-to approach is. I'll use another NBA analogy. Remember in Miami when LeBron went there and all of a sudden he was a villain? He's like, I'm going to be the villain. I'm going to be the villain.

LeBron never wanted to be a villain. LeBron wants to be liked. That's who he is in his core. And if you are a guy in your core who good looking dude, who's really nice to other people and people like you because you're nice. I wouldn't deviate from that plan, man. I just like some girls are gonna like that.

Some girls aren't, but a longterm, you're going to be happier because you're going to meet somebody who likes you because you're nice. So I would say don't change yourself too much and just, just, just stay the course, stay who you are and trust.

It's not to be saying hinky on everybody here, but trust the process. Wow. That's three NBA analogies. Incredible. Sorry. That was free, guys. Do you have any friends that you can trust that are honest with you? Like if you have a friend that you can say, hey, do I have bad breath?

Your friend's like, actually, yeah, we talk about it. And I don't mean like this guy, but just saying like in general, maybe you can even ask your friends, be like, is there anything I'm doing? Any vibe I'm putting off? And what if they say, no, man,

your money and you'll feel great. And you could just turn back to them and be like, Broncos country. Let's ride. Let me just say some guys couldn't even get the number. So the fact that you're like a month goes by or whatever, just be happy. You're even,

you even got to take it, pal. That's all I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. And I also, this guy, I don't know, five years ago, I mean, it's not like ghosting was invented in the last three years,

but all right, we spent enough time on this and it took up the whole thing because we have a massive pod for you. So please subscribe, rate, and review. Thanks to Kyle and Steve, as always. Ryan Russo, The Podcast, we're on your Spotify. Thank you. you