The Ryen Russillo Podcast - College Recruiting Stories With Rasheed Wallace, Robert Horry, Amar'e Stoudemire, James Posey, Jermaine O’Neal, and Jarrett Jack. Plus, Matt Taibbi on ‘Hate Inc.’

Episode Date: August 19, 2021

Russillo is joined by author Matt Taibbi to discuss his book ‘Hate Inc.: Why Today’s Media Makes Us Despise One Another’ (0:25). Then he talks to former NBA stars about their experiences with the college recruiting process (44:10). Finally Ryen answers some listener-submitted Life Advice questions (1:16:40). Host: Ryen Russillo Guests: Rasheed Wallace, Robert Horry, Amar'e Stoudemire, James Posey, Jermaine O’Neal, Jarrett Jack, and Matt Taibbi Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Matt Taibbi, the author of Hate Inc. How the Media Became What It Is. This is a terrific book, especially for somebody in the media, but I think you'll enjoy it as well. And recruiting stories. We got a bunch of basketball ones from some huge names and life advice. recruiting stories we got a bunch of basketball ones from some huge names and life advice this is somebody who i've been a huge fan of for a long time kind of surprised i didn't hook up with him earlier but matt taibi uh one of the great writers i think of our time with rolling stone you probably saw his work there now substack you get all the work i love grittopia when it first came out and then hate inc is the book that i kind of want to talk about we'll kind of just kick it around and useful idiots is also his is also his podcast. So Matt, what's up, man?

Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me on, Ryan. Big fan myself. Okay. So one of my favorite things about you is I think you're one of the great observers of our time. And I always love that line from Zero Effect where the movie where, and I think you even referenced this, but yeah, I love that reference because I love that movie. But another thing from it is like the detective is like, I'm just a great observer, you know? And it is, it is an, uh, I think it's an underrated skill because everybody could sit there and say, well, I observe things. And that's, that's what I've just always liked about you is that you just will see the world and you will see it in a way. And then're like okay let me try to explain to everybody what i'm seeing and why this is happening so what

were the observations to that really led to a book uh that's hating why today's media makes us despise one another yeah first just to flesh out the whole zero effect thing uh because i think it's an important point that the scene is from it's, who's the actor? Bill Pullman, right? Yeah. Yeah, so there's a scene where he's sort of like this Holmesian detective, and the line is if you're looking for

a specific thing, your chances of finding it are very small, because out of all the things in the world, there's only one of those. But if you go into a situation looking for anything, you're very likely to find it because there's this unlimited amount of things in the world. And so that's kind of my philosophy of journalism, which is, you know, I think in the current age, especially one of the things that happens is we get sent to the stories and we have a predetermined

thesis when we go in. You know, editors know what they want out of a topic and they'll send a reporter into some place and they kind of want them to get that. So reporters end up going in and trying to nudge sources and interviews in a certain direction because they want the right quotes. Whereas, you know, my philosophy is I think you should go in with a blank slate, you know, see what develops and then kind of write that up, you know, afterwards, because whatever you found is what you found, you know, and that's, I think, how journalists traditionally operated. We do it a different way now. And this is kinditized for specific political audiences. So if you're covering, let's say, immigration and you work for The Washington Post or The New York Times,

you're going to your take is basically pre-written because you know what your audience wants to hear. Same thing if you work for Fox, you're going to have a completely different take. Your take is going to be focusing on crimes committed by immigrants coming into the country or, you know, sort of other problems like that, right? And that's what I'm trying to get at with Hate Inc., which is that we've divided the business into essentially halves where we're not really reporting. We're just manufacturing a product that is designed to make audiences feel better about themselves by giving them what they want to hear. Yeah, the immigrant part that I thought is really interesting because I went back and read Losers, Michael Lewis's book about the 96 campaign. And you would hear Pat Buchanan basically saying word for word stuff Trump would be saying in his bid for reelection.

And it feels like it's so different and it's so heightened in ways it is. But I think anytime I'll read about anything that's happened with coverage, I mean, it happens in sports all the time. Like when I'd read Babe Bruce biography and I would hear a different column is crushing him for certain things. I'm like, this is straight from first take. Like this is unbelievable that we're a hundred years removed from this stuff. And it's almost the same way that it's covered.

So why do you think though, in observing all this, like, and I know you've gone back and, and looked at, um, you know, the way coverage has evolved.

Why do you think it feels so different now, even though a lot of the stuff tonally was the same subject matter wise as well? So it has a ton to do with kind of the commercial strategy of the business and structurally how we make money in media now has changed. If you go back to the 70s and 80s, 60s, 70s, and 80s, and again, I'm the son of a reporter, so I grew up watching this. The strategy of a network like NBC, CBS, ABC, they wanted to go for the whole audience. They were trying to get everybody. So they wanted both Republicans and Democrats to watch their programming because they wanted to sell the maximum number of ads to people. So they tended to have a very broad, non-confrontational, non-denominational approach to covering the news. And when the Internet came along, and especially after the development of the 24-hour news cycle, it just became impossible.

I think stations like Fox were the first to realize, with so much content out there, the way that you make money in modern media is you identify a demographic and you try to dominate it. So rather than just broadly going after everybody, let's identify, let's say, a conservative suburban district or a demographic and let's give them the hard stuff that they really like. And we know that they're going to come back to that because we're giving them content that is stronger in their direction than the news on ABC, NBC, CBS, whatever it is. Now everybody does that. Basically, every news organization does some version of that. The New York Times knows exactly who its audience is and they feed them news that they know that they like. Salon.com, even Rolling Stone, where I work for,

the strategies are different. We're doing what's called audience optimization. We're picking an audience and we're going backwards. We're starting with the audience and then developing the content to fit the audience. And that's what's different. And again, for 50 years or so, the strategy was completely opposite. I don't know what this says about me, so I'll just go ahead and share it. But I don't watch really much news at all. That's great for you. I watch. I mean, I know this sounds shitty, but here's a perfect example. A bunch of friends were emailing about Biden handing a do not hack list to Putin and to Russia and being like, hey, don't hack these.

And then my conservative friends were like, hey, what an idiot. Why would you tell him to not target these? Now they're going to target those. And then my more liberal friends were like, you're making too big of a deal out of this. And then, of course, it turned into, yeah, but if Trump had done this, you guys would have said he was an idiot and on and on and on. And I just kind of hang and go, whatever. And I just felt like whatever happened go whatever. And I just felt like

whatever happened, whatever today's news moment was, you're going to forget about it in five days. Exactly. It's probably not going to impact any day for the rest of your life unless, you know, there is a massive, massive hack. And I guess the back and forth, I find it so unimpressive. It's almost like a conservative friend tweeting out a picture of Bill Clinton and Jeffrey Epstein and thinking he won the argument or a Trump supporter tweeting out a picture. Or I would say, yeah, yeah. On the other side, like somebody else who hates Trump saying, hey, here's Trump and Harvey Weinstein and feeling like, OK, so now what? You tweeted out the pictures. Now what? And I find a lot of it very useless. Yeah, absolutely. It's absolutely useless.

It's entertainment, you know, and I think people think that they're resolving something or that they're going to win the argument. But the argument is the point. I mean, you brought up First Take before. The whole concept of those sports shows, and there's a chapter in the book about how the news is ripped off a lot from sports because they've figured out that it's a format that works. Arguing is fun for sports fans. The Yankees fans want to argue one thing. Red Sox fans want to argue another thing. People who like LeBron more than Michael Jordan, they want to have that debate. It's just entertainment, right? We do a different version of it with politics, but it's essentially the same idea. The people on NBC are arguing one thing and that's Max

Kellerman. And then over on Fox, they're arguing back and the argument never ends. The show would be impossible if they ever came to an accommodation about anything. And that's that's why, you know, political media has evolved in the direction it has, because the money making element of this whole thing is the constantly emotionally charged argument that underlies all of it. And that's no one will admit that. But that's that's what makes the money in political media. And that's why we have it. And I saw firsthand once Trump was in the lead up the year prior, and then once he was in office, and we would look at our daytime ratings on ESPN, and we were all whacked by like 30 something percent, if not more. Like the daytime chunk of it. Everybody's like going, well, wait a minute.

I mean, selfishly, if you were really selfish, everybody in sports would have wanted Trump out because we weren't on our daytime show ratings. Okay. I was gone from the daytime part of it by the, by the time he was still in office. But, um, I mean, there was like a half overlap and then I left ESPN the daytime part of it at the end of 17. Um, but we would see those and go, okay, this is like the easiest correlation ever. We're not trying to figure out, Hey, are you doing the topics wrong? Like, do we have the wrong host? We're like, no, everybody's over there because they can't get enough of the coverage, love him or hate him. How important was that in the business planning of these outlets, seeing it and then doubling down and realizing, okay, this is a cash cow right now?

Oh, absolutely. That was central. Like, you know, I talk about this a lot. If you look at the polls, there's this amazing set of numbers. One shows that the public believes the news media far less than they ever have before. It's a good constant downward graph. Every year it gets worse. On the other hand, they consume news media more than they ever have before, right? So they're watching us more, they believe us less. So what does that tell you? That tells you that news media is cutting in to the market share of entertainment

media. I mean, it's a simple one-to-one kind of zero-sum thing where we started to, especially in the Trump years, Trump came along and he was an entertainment phenomenon. There's no bones about it. He's a reality star. He's a former pro wrestling guy. He is extremely adept at generating audience. He turned the presidential campaign, which is essentially a reality show, we cover it that way, the presidential campaign, which is essentially a reality. Should we cover it that way? But he turned it from a bad one into a really interesting one. And we got tons and tons of audience that we never had before.

Like, you know, what you're describing in sports media, the opposite happened in news media. In the fall of 2015 and early 2016, I was covering Trump. I was on the campaign trail and we were all talking about it. Like, you know, our clicks were up. Everybody, the TV ratings were up. Everybody was doing a booming business. And it didn't matter whether you were anti-Trump, pro-Trump, you know, as long as you had them on air, it was a cash cow. So absolutely, this was conscious. You know, we knew we were taking audience away from sports and entertainment and soap operas and everything else because we were the best soap opera in town.

It will be remembered historically as one of the worst calls by the media in general. Um, because I just remember, you know, everything I saw. And I think it has sometimes to do with that, like elitism in the, in the Northeast. And then, you know, people can joke about the coastal elite phrase you know i'm from the northeast i'm from massachusetts like you are um you know and you're like okay this is this is it like this isn't gonna last with trump this isn't gonna not to like keep bringing this stuff over and over again but it was one of the all-time worst calls by the media that there's no way he could ever win and it proved this disconnect which i think you jump into really well in the book of like the people that are on the coverage have maybe never been more disconnected from the people they think they know and then like the comical

thing of like all right well let's have new york times columnist go to upstate new york to just hang out and be regular for a week like like this stuff is it's it's comical that it'd be like all right you know what we need we got the trump thing wrong so let's go have some hot dogs in upstate new york and we're going to get to the root of this yeah it's it's like the gene goodale let's let's go live among the apes kind of a thing right like um the the call that you're you're mentioning it's way worse than we remember because not only was the media unanimous that he would never win the general election, they were absolutely unanimous that he would never win the nomination. And this was at a time when he was crushing the polls. I mean, I'm not talking about, you know, having a slight advantage over over jeb bush he was destroying

everybody and the the the predictions in at at sites that were supposedly professional about this like 538.com you know nate silver's site they were saying things like you know donald trump will play in the nba before he's the Republican nominee. And this was unanimous. There was almost nobody who thought otherwise. Now, I have a confession to make. I was one of the first people to take Trump seriously as a candidate. I wrote an article pretty early in the process saying, you know, essentially that there was a very viable path forward to him to winning the whole thing because I was traveling around and I was seeing the crowds. It was just unbelievable

and talking to people. But then I got sat down by a pollster at the Republican convention who, you know, sort of read me the riot act and said, it's not happening and sort of proved to me that the numbers just didn't add up, that there weren't enough non-college educated white people to elect Trump. And from that point forward, I made a mistake. I made the same mistake that all journalists made, saying that it was impossible. But that's a lesson for journalists is that you have to trust your eyes sometimes and not the so-called experts. Because what I was seeing in the campaign was that Trump was packing massive stadiums all over the country. There was standing

room only. People were left outside. I mean, I can tell you stories about things that I saw. And Hillary Clinton was having empty seats in the back of small halls you know and that should have been a big tell and we ignored it because what if somebody says hey well she won the popular vote though you don't know what you're talking about because i mean i'm imagining five minutes into this somebody's already mad that we're bringing up you know this unpredictable thing and it's not even political i just am fascinated and i think we always should be historically with the coverage of this but go ahead no she did win the popular vote and, and you know,

I don't dispute that she won it by a fairly significant margin, but what we saw on the campaign trail should have told us that this was going to be at least a close race. Right. Right. Yeah. I think that's it. I think that's the point.

And, and, and that there was some drama, you know, that, that, you know, I don't think even Trump expected to win. Like, if you look at his face on election night, you could tell he was kind of stunned by the whole thing. But there was no question that we were getting data throughout the campaign that was telling us, like, sort of directly that this was going to be kind of kind of a close thing and i remember even having conversations with journalists who were saying

things like you know i'm not sure i want to do the story about this poll because i'll be accused of helping trump by saying that the race is close like there was there was this perception that if if we said it was anything but a blowout, that it was going to be heightening his chances. And that's where I started. That was part of the impetus for this book is I was seeing this thing that was happening with journalists where they started to put their thumbs on the scale and saying, you know, we got to try to affect the outcome.

Whereas I see our jobs as being like, we'll just tell you what's happening. You figure it out, you know, and that's stopped during the Trump years, I think. That's a perfect segue then, because, you know, now he's in office and I've seen and read and probably felt at times, hey, we've never been more divided. But then sometimes I wonder, is it that or we've just never had more access to our division, which I think is probably part of it as well. But he's in office and now it's you've got to figure out which way you're going with it. And again, another sort of self-critical thing here is like when I watch, I wish I should say watch loosely.

When I come across a clip of a Sean Hannity, like my expectation was zero before the clip even started. All right. Like I already know, like I don't care. And Rachel Maddow, you also have on the cover. Maybe at some point I just sort of felt like I have a higher expectation for your coverage. And she, in her own way, was just as guilty of being as biased as Hannity was, which is why I love the book because you just kind of lay it all out there. I don't know why I would have higher expectations for her than Hannity, but I did. So therefore, when she screws shit up, it's almost like I was more disappointed where there was never any expectation with Hannity whatsoever. So again, I don't know what that says about me, but I'm just throwing it out there to you. No, you're absolutely right. I mean, I agree with you. And I knew Rachel going back to her Air America days.

I watched her whole career develop. We were friendly at one point. Does she hate you now, by the way, because she's on the cover of this book? I don't know. It's probably not good. But, you know, it's yeah, it is what it is. But, yeah, I had higher expectations for her, too. And I think up until up until 2016, I would have said that she, she did pretty smart television. I mean, for the most part,

and she's, she's extremely good on air, you know, as, as a broadcast broadcaster, she really knows what she's doing. She's very smart. But after 2016,

MSNBC's sort of mandate became almost ironclad predictable. Like in the same way that you talk about with Hannity, you don't have to watch the show because you know what he's going to say, basically. Like his take on everything is kind of pre-written. And that's what happened on MSNBC. And the first place where you saw this happening was right after the election, when there should have been this really intense soul-searching postmortem. Like, what happened to the Democratic Party? How could we possibly lose an election to this game show host who is like an Andy Kaufman act, basically, right?

Like, how did we lose to this guy and there should have been some reflection about that because the answer is extremely complicated you know it like race was clearly part of it there's no question about it like if you went into trump crowds you hear stuff that people say is no question that there's nativism racism all that stuff but there. But there were also lots of other factors that were really pertinent. I talked to a lot of union people in Trump crowns who said, I feel betrayed by the Democratic Party

because of NAFTA and other things. I heard a lot of people who said, I distrust politicians of all stripes because of after what happened in 2008. I think they're too close to Wall Street. Others would say things like, I just hate politicians generally because they always promise things. They never deliver. And Trump's just not a politician. And, you know, on the small chance that he might do something differently, I'll vote for him.

Like there were a million different reasons people voted for Trump. And what happened after 2000, after the election is it became mandatory just to say the only reason people voted for Trump was race, you know, or Russia or whatever it was. And we can't explore these other things. Now to explore those other things doesn't mean that you're saying you like Trump or that you believe that he was being sincere with his voters or any of those things. But you had to have some some recognition of what was going on in the minds of voters. And they just stopped doing it. They stopped doing journalism. You know, they started doing propaganda, which is, you know, he's bad because of this. And that's the end of it. That's the end of it. And, you know, I just disagree with that approach.

I don't know that anybody who's ever read your stuff would confuse you with somebody who's supportive of Trump. That would be inaccurate. But in your book, you take on the Russian accusations and you take them on pretty much straight on. So explain, you know, I don't want to tee you up and take you in the wrong direction. Explain that in the best way you can of like what it was, what was real and probably what was, I think a lot of people probably looked at you and say, well, why would you write this chapter if you don't like him? Because those are the rules. Right, right, right. Yeah. Oh, it's, and that's unfortunate because, you know,

it's, it's again, that's kind of a style of modern media which is sort of inability to separate sort of principles or issues

from the people involved. Right. But, yeah, when the Russian story first broke, I lived in Russia for 10 years.

So, I was, you you know very interested in the subject um but i you know like any reporter does i kind of had a little bit of a spider sense that there was something amiss with this story that almost all the sources were anonymous they were telling us things that we kind of had to take on faith that were unconfirmed that were coming from the intelligence services um you know they were telling us things that we kind of had to take on faith that were unconfirmable that were coming from the intelligence services. You know, they were using a technique that I had seen in the financial services industry. Like, you know, I covered a lot of instances of, you know, short sellers want to knock

down a stock. So they'll commission a study that says that a company is corrupt. They will hand it to the FBI, leak the news to a paper, and then the paper will say the company is under investigation. The stock goes down. Everybody wins, right? The Steele dossier was very much the same kind of story because what happened with that, if you were actually reading those stories early on, because what happened with that, if you were actually reading those stories early on, what you saw is mostly what reporters were reporting was that so-and-so took possession of this report, the Steele dossier, and the government was investigating it, but they weren't investigating whether or not the charges in them were true. They were just talking about

the fact that there was an investigation. And so I was frustrated from the start that there was no effort to try to prove a lot of these assertions that were going on, you know, that Putin had cultivated Trump for five years, that he had been, you know, engaged in a thing with prostitutes in a hotel. Like there was a lot of sort of reporting by inference that went on. And then obviously once the Mueller investigation ran its course, we found out that there just wasn't a whole lot there that they could really sink their teeth into. And they had promised us that this was going to be the end of his presidency.

And that in itself is a major media failure. So I saw a lot of similarities in this to the WMD episode, which I also lived through as a reporter, where, again, anonymous sources, intelligence sources, unconfirmable stuff, stories that fall apart because we can't get at the root of them you know we can't see the root issues and um and yeah like and add to that there was an advocacy part of this that a lot of reporters wanted this to be true because they hated trump and um yeah it was problematic from a number of angles for me what i really love too is that you brought up the facebook part of it and before i go to that because i want to have you share those stats because it was hilarious when you laid it out in the book.

Because I also understand because I've always argued for years like when somebody in sports would be like, oh, 2 million people watch my Facebook show. And I'm like, did they? Did really 2 million people stop what they were doing to watch your Facebook show? That seems to be. And so I want to get you ready for those numbers. But there's also something as I was reading the book, and on that topic alone, like if you ask just the random guy, depending on where they were aligned politically, hey, what do you think about Trump and Russia?

If they don't like Trump, they'd probably say something like, well, you know, look, something's going on, right? Like something, a very vague answer that kind of confirms your own doubt about it. Like, ah, something was going on. Because it happens to me all the time in sports. And I can tell within two seconds if the guy is really locked into sports or if he isn't. Because if, you know, say LeBron were to lose a big playoff game and, you know, I go to the gym or I pick up a sub. And the guy's like, oh, hey, how's it going?

Like, I'll be like, oh, LeBron, you know, he's no Jordan. And you're just like, okay, you know, he lost the game last night or whatever. So whatever it is, like nobody wants to feel left out. They always want to be a part of it, but there isn't a lot of digging. And the thing is, it's like, it's one thing if we on the outside don't do enough work on it, but when the people presenting it to us are doing it in a way that felt, um, at times, even if you hated Trump, you're like, wait a minute, like this doesn't seem to add up. And the Facebook part of it was hilarious because I think the Facebook one was a very great example of like a clickbaity thing oh facebook we don't

like them anymore and now russia and they got people on facebook and then um you know this is why trump is even in office like all this stuff was connected and then when you lay it all out you're like this is insanely wrong oh yeah what were the facebook things like with the whole idea that they were manipulating everything? Well, first of all, you know, the the actual number of ads. So the claim was that Russia, through the Internet Research Agency in St. Petersburg, which, by the way, they never established, was actually a government a government operation and wasn't just some kind of clickbait farm for money. They proved or the Senate said that they spent $46,000 worth of advertising that was designed to influence the vote in a handful of states, you know, sort of against Hillary Clinton. Now, a portion of that money was actually spent after the election. But when you listen to the Senate testimony, they put out these amazing numbers like, you know, that these Facebook ads,

I don't know if you've seen them, they're preposterous, right? They're like pictures of Bernie Sanders, you know, as a bodybuilder with multicolored, uh, you know, sort of rainbow, uh, gay rights things on him. I mean, it's, it's, there wasn't, there was another one that was actually, um, something about, uh, uh, Jesus being, uh, uh, against masturbation. Like there was a picture of Jesus and it's like, we're going to beat this together. It was the headline. That was one of the ads that they bought. Anyway, but in the Senate testimony, they said that 126 million people could have seen these ads. And what they were doing is abstract extrapolating some kind of number based on the possibility that people, you know, if if everybody who possibly encountered those ads over the course of their surfing had actually looked at those ads. That's how many people would have seen them. But I think when you actually dug down to the numbers, it was some insanely small fraction of that.

to the numbers. It was some insanely small fraction of that. I don't, I don't, I'm putting you on the spot here, but when you looked at the actual math of like, there's a headline number and then the real math behind it. And you were like, that's such an insignificant number. Like there's no way that you guys are rounding up with the possibility of coming across an ad and then using that as this is how many ads were bought. And like the headline of it seems scary. The reality of it is insignificant. I mean, again, $46,000 on Facebook is like, I mean, that's like the old Leon Spinks story about having a dollar and 50 cents worth of cocaine. It's like, it's not there. You know what I mean? It's, it's, it's so small as to not be visible compared to what, you know, the Trump campaign itself spent $50 million on Facebook ads. Right. So that was significant. Like that actually had an impact on the race. You know, $46,000, even if let's just say that they were actually doing that. It's nothing. it's not even theoretically impactful on this whole thing but you know they sold it very dishonestly as something that was a

major thing that happened because it was one of the only things that they could they could actually point to that was concrete do people dislike you in the business now you know I think look I have a lot of friends in the business? Uh, now I, you know, I, I think, look, I have a lot of friends in the business and, um, I've been working in journalism for 30 years and I get along with a lot of people. I think it's been more strained in the last five years. Um, you know, beginning with this, with the Russia business and with some other things lately. But yeah, I tend to get along with the kind of people who do the hardcore investigative journalism stuff because that's what I did for so long.

But the people who are manning the kind of the culture war type stories, um, yeah, I'm, I'm probably not as popular as maybe I might've been one time. I want to maybe, maybe close with this and I have something else I want to ask you about, but you know, I have friends cause being at ESPN almost 15 years, every time something would happen to ESPN, they, they'd call me or text me and be like, Hey, what do do you think or whatever? And look, I was in the building five days a week, if not more. So I look at it as for that many years, I wasn't just some guy that flew in to do hits for a couple of days and bounced out. I think I had a pretty good understanding of how the place worked. And Skip Bayless would always come up and everybody would always get pissed at him.

I don't like Skip at all. It actually is personal. He fucked me a couple of times. I don't like him. I didn't like him before. I think he has zero credibility and he makes a ton of money and it worked out for him. Great. All right. But what I don't like is when people will say, I can't believe he did this, or I can't believe he said this about LeBron or the person after LeBron wins or loses in a playoff game. They check his Twitter feed to see what his tweets are or want to watch him on TV. So what he's doing works. But the reason it works is really our fault. And when I read the book, I felt like at the same time, as much as you wish it were different and there were this overhaul of coverage or people took things more seriously or people cared about it or people had the ability to say, I don't know every now and then, which seems to be impossible to do on television. You're just not going to have a job that the reason Skip Bayless is successful or any of these media members on Fox or CNN or whatever, and the people, everybody gets mad at the reason it works is because of you. Like you're the reason, like it's your fault.

It's not even the presenter's fault. It's the consumer's fault. And this is actually what we'd like. We'd like to be motivated emotionally to get some sort of response. So like credit for Skip because it's worked and he's made a ton of money. But his success, you can't be mad at him because it's really your fault he has in the audience. You always have to think about what the audience's role is in causing or enabling a lot of these trends. There's no question that people became much more tribal in the way that they consume the news in the last 10 years, but especially in the last five years. A lot of people just started consuming it as entertainment. It became addictive for some people.

I mean, I'm sure you've run into, we've all run into people in our private lives who cannot stop talking about politics, right? Like you want them to be quiet and move on to someplace, you know, a topic that's more congenial for everybody. They can't leave it alone, right? So those people are out there. They're the ones who are kind of fueling this boom

in hyper-politicized, hyper-emotionalized political content. And look, the reality for news companies is they can't afford to do business any other way because it wouldn't make them money, right? Or I think they think that way. I think what we're finding out now with companies like Substack and some of the other alternative media spaces that there's actually a tremendous appetite for a different way of doing things. But a lot of people who are in traditional corporate media, they think this is the only way that they can earn. So they're not going to go and do 20-minute investigative pieces

about central banking or something like that. They're not going to get the audience for that. So I do understand it. And yeah, it's the audience's fault because they go for the lowest common denominator stuff. And it's a conundrum, right? Because you have to pay for journalism somehow. Uh, and if, and if people aren't buying it, you know, we can't sell it to

you. So it's, yeah, you're right. It's, it's, it's a thing that we have to look at kind of holistically as being the fault of everybody in the chain. Okay. Let's do some stuff. This is where I always like looking at guys resumes and you'll be like, are you 100? Like, how do you how do you have all these life experiences? So, all right, what did you go to Conquer Carlisle? No, Concord Academy. Concord Academy. I know, I know. It's embarrassing. But where are you from? From Martha's Vineyard. So don't worry about it. Yeah, the vineyard's cool.

vineyard so okay don't worry about it yeah the vineyard's cool no it's just um there's always a reaction that i get and i always know what it is even if the person doesn't say it out loud i worked on cuddy hunk for a couple of summers believe it or not well everybody thinks the vineyard is cuddy hunk in a way and you're like no it's like six towns there's 14 000 people year round you know i mean look i'm not telling you it's this this buzzing metropolis but cuddy hunk is like antarctica and new england as far as i'm exactly right exactly there's like six kids in the entire school it's a completely so that's that's not surprised you go to russia you do that all right so you go to nyu you bounce did you go there to play sports no or no it's all immediate okay you didn't what did you not like the city and that's why you ended up at bard yeah i i was not ready to go to school in the big city it turned out my high school had been a

really small place and i was more comfortable doing that so i transferred to bard which was more like where i went to high school okay so then as i was researching more stuff i didn't know this you ended up i know you played baseball where'd you play baseball for a little while uh in russia i played for uh tsai saka which is the the red army team um and i also played for a team called spartak uh you know they had this little little sort of semi-pro uh league when i was there in 96 and 97 so i played for both of those teams um and, and I also played, believe it or not, in Uzbekistan. Yeah. That's the one that surprised me. Yeah. I lived in Uzbekistan in 1991. Um, and I was walking past, uh, I think one of the universities at one point, I saw a bunch of

people playing baseball and I was so freaked out. I like who plays baseball in uzbekistan it turned out that they the school was full of cuban students because of the soviet union like there was that relationship and the cubans were playing baseball and they were they were awesome like i you know they were fielding like you know it was just beautiful to watch anyway i ended up on that team um and we played kind of like exhibition it was like the uzbek national baseball team believe it or not and we played exhibitions against countries like kyrgyzstan and stuff like that so i was the only i was the only guy on team there was like one other russian everybody else was cuban and it was me uh you know on that team okay but then you end up in mongolia and you play basketball and you're actually like a professional basketball player in Mongolia. So give me, give me a level of what

we're at here. Um, what year, what the hell was that? This was, uh, this was 1996. I was playing, I was, uh, working for a paper called the Moscow times in Moscow and I was playing street basketball at Moscow State University. I met a Mongolian kid. We were playing ball and he said, there's a pro league in Mongolia, the NBA, the Mongolian Basketball Association. And he said it had the

same rules as the NBA, 24 second clock, everything. I was just enthralled. I quit my job the next day. I went into my boss and I got a bag out of the Trans-Siberian Railroad and went to Mongolia, found the team, got a tryout. And my plan was to write a book about it. I did play for most of the season for this team called the Ulaanbaatar Mountain Eagles. And I was known as the Mongolian Rodman, believe it or not.

Is that what they called you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I used to, when I had hair, I dyed it and had like a red hair and a blonde goatee for a while, stuff like that. I used to get in fights. And I was leading league and rebounding believe it or not at one point so um how good was the league like part of me this is

this was probably a dream of mine in the like in the 30s where you're like could you find the worst professional league in the world and go play and get shorts and stuff yeah yeah exactly yeah i would say it was um maybe II level, right? So you're a pretty good player then, is what you're telling us. Oh, yeah, it was okay. I played for Bard College, which is not a great... But you played in college. There's a difference, right?

Right, yeah. I mean, I could play a little bit. I mean, I wasn't terribly good, but I could at least hold my own with these guys. We had a couple of players in the league who I would say were good. There was one guy who I think played, who was seven feet tall, and he ended up playing somewhere in Europe, I think, maybe even against the Globetrotters at one point, or with the Globetrotters.

And we had another kid who i think would have been a pretty good division one player uh he was actually on our team but the rest of everybody else we were just kind of you know putzers basically it was but it was fun you know okay yeah i mean look this is an incredible life experience to be able to even say you did this is impressive what's the best story from it? Is there a moment where you were scared? Maybe a place in the road that you went to for 24 hours and it's never been the same. What's the best story that you tell your buddies from that year?

Okay, well, there were a bunch of things. Number one, my teammates and I were walking down the street one day and we looked across the street and I saw the biggest person I've ever seen in my entire life. And he was this wrestler. Mongolians are like amazing wrestlers. They have this culture. They're completely obsessed with it. Actually, but they were obsessed with basketball by the time I got there as well for different reasons. But it was a wrestler, this guy named Orgil Bold. And was like seven to maybe 350 pounds just like a massive person right and I said why is that guy not in the league you know and they said well you know

he's a wrestler he doesn't know how to play basketball like who cares like you know just put him under the basket and have him hold his hands up and you know will it'll will never be scored on you know is that that was sort of my idea. So we, we, I convinced this guy, me, this was my fault. I went up to him and I convinced him to come in for, to try to work out. And, um, it was, it was a disaster. Like this guy, we were throwing the ball off his nose. Like he literally could not catch the ball. Um, couldn't, you know, even if we put them on a stool, like he couldn't get it in the basket. It was, it the ball. Couldn't, you know, even if we put them on a stool, like he couldn't get it in the basket.

It was, it was unbelievable. It was, it was really funny though. Like I had these dreams in my head of like discovering the Asian shack and it didn't, it didn't work out that way. But yeah,

there were, there were a lot, there were lots of funny scenes. You know, I, I, I, I,

I, I, I, I, I, I, I, my owner,

the owner of the team wanted to drum up interest in the sport. So he actually instructed me to get into fights with the opposition so that there would be stories in the newspaper. So I would do stuff like pull the shorts down of the guys I was covering. And like, you know, it was hilarious. It was like the Bad News Bears or some bad sports movie. It was really funny. It was like the Bad News Bears or some bad sports movie. It was really funny.

Somebody must have clocked you pretty good once, because that had to be really annoying, especially considering you're an American, too. Who's this fucking guy? Yeah, there were a couple that I didn't end up on the best end of a little bit of a melee. Yeah, there were a few scenes like that, but mostly it was in good fun. Like the guys,

Mongolians have this kind of way about them where it's very normal for everybody to go out, guys to go out. Everybody gets drunk on the stuff they call Arah, which is like a really kind of rot-gut vodka. And it's like a rule that friends must get in some kind of serious fight by the end of the night and then they forget about it by morning.

So that was sort of part of the culture there is you end up beating each other up at some point. It was a really fun time. I should someday write a book about it probably. It's something. I want to know more. Hey, that is Matt Taibbi again for those that joined us for this book about it probably. It's something. I want to know more. Hey, that is Matt Taibbi again for those that joined us for this.

Check it out. Hey, Inc. I love the book because I just think that you're just trying to like, hey, this is what's happening. And there's no leading the witness on the way in here, man. We're just telling you what's up. So, and again, check out Useful Idiots podcast as well. So thanks, man. Excellent.

Thanks so much, Ryan. Take care. I'd go to Wallace. I would go to Wallace. I'd say, Rasheed, take me home, big fella. Take me home. Take me home, big fella. 106 to go.

Wojciechowski for three. Not to Shavaric. What a play by Rasheed Walsh. That's Rasheed Wallace taking over late on both ends of the floor in a win for UNC over Duke. That's back at Cameron in 1995. Dick Vitale on the ESPN call. Okay, so let's go back to Philly. Rashid, everybody wants you.

What's your favorite story of that time in the recruiting process and basically leading to the decision of you going to UNC? Oh man, it's actually, I got two. I can wrap up in one. So when, here I am,

I was blessed enough to be wanted by a majority of colleges in the country, D1, 2, 3, NAIA, JUCO, all of that. Because at the time, SATs were 700. And my senior year, I didn't take the SAT up until like spring of that year. So, you know, that's why I had all the school. And so here I am, I'm watching North Carolina play Michigan and, you know, the infamous Seaware timeout and all that stuff.

Right. So Carolina wins. Boom. I get up the next morning, I go to school, normal day, you know, class, practice, workouts, all of that. I come home and, you know, my mom and I, we were living in an apartment. So I just kept walking straight to my room. I had my headphones on. I kept walking straight to my room, but out of my peripheral, I seen, you know, some figures in a living room. So I stepped back and I gave a look back like, and who was it sitting there? It was my mom, Coach Smith, and Coach Phil Ford, who I think is the greatest basketball player in Carolina history, but that's another story. They're sitting in my living room, so I take my headphones off. I'm like, man, hello, Coach. What's up? I'm like, what y'all doing here? Y'all should be saying y'all just won a championship last night. Y'all should be celebrating or whatever. He's like,

no, we celebrated last night. Now itall should be celebrating or whatever. You know, he's like, no, we celebrated last night. Now it's back to business. That right there stuck in my head. All right, I said, okay. Because, you know, I was used to that championship mentality with playing in high school at Simon Gratz, winning three city championships, two national championships. So I understood what he was saying.

But I never had a coach outside of my coach, Bill Ellerby, tell me that. And, you know, that stuck with me. So, boom, all right. A couple weeks later, I'm taking my visit. So I'm going to get down to Carolina. So one of my guys, he's my host, right? And so we get there. He's like, yeah, you know, we're going to do this.

We're going to go to this party, you know, take you around campus, this and that. So I'm like, all right, bet. So we go in here and there. So here comes party time. So I'm like, all right. He's like, yo, he said, where are you staying at? I said, you know, they got me in a little hotel right around the corner from campus. He's like, let me borrow your key for a second and I'll be right back. I said, all right, cool. You know, I ain't thinking nothing of it. So I was in the room with one of his cousins,

right? So, you know, we just chilling and we playing a game, me and him playing a game. I look up. Three, four hours passed by the party. Well, for me, the party was over, but he had a party and all of this stuff, right? You know, did what he did in the room. Went to the party on campus and everything, so I'm sitting in and all of this stuff, right? You know, did what he did in the room, went to

the party on campus and everything, so I'm sitting in the room playing video games, right? So I'm like, dude, what happened? He's like, oh man, my bad. You know, just got caught up with some stuff. I was like, oh! So ever since then, but it was cool, though. I still have fun that whole visit down there to Carolina.

Wait, wait, so he didn't... He... He was... The host is supposed to show you a good time to get you to want to go there. Imagine if the coaching staff knew what he had done. Were you guys playing the same position or something? Did he not want you there?

No, no, we wasn't. But no, it was my man. It was funny. I was there for like about three days. So it was just that one day. But it was still funny. So I always kill him to this day. I'm like, damn, man, you know, you ain't trust me enough to come out with you.

Left me in a room. So I always kill him to this day. But no, we still brothers. Was there ever a chance you were going somewhere else in the process? Maybe you thought you were. To be honest, I gave real, real heavy consideration with going to Georgetown and Coach Thompson. Coach Big John Thompson.

Because growing up, Patrick Ewing was one of my favorite players to watch because he was so tall. And I didn't start out playing basketball my my first love was track and field but watching Pat Ewing when I actually got into basketball him being so tall and he coming with the hook and you know how he curled up for his jump shot I'm like man this guy's man he's just running the floor so he was boom became one of my favorite players to watch so then I started okay, college basketball with my older brother and Georgetown and this and that.

So I was heavily considering Georgetown. But the only thing is my freshman year, I wouldn't have had no guard. You know, nobody knew that Allen Iverson was coming. You know, he was because he was playing football at the time and, you know, going through other things. But the great basketball player he was, you know, nobody got wind that he was going to go to Georgetown. So I was like, man, I got, I need a guard because at the time I think my skillset wasn't good enough for me to bring the ball up the court and, you know, do a lot of the things that you see a lot of the power forwards do today.

So I said, I need a guard to be able to bring this ball up and give me this rock and, you know, vice versa. And at the time, Georgetown didn't have one. So looking at it, I'm like, Carolina is my best option because Derek Phelps, there it is. He's coming off of the NCAA championship. And I think the only, they were only missing two guys, two or three guys.

But one that was a significant player was George Lynch. So, but everybody else on that team was coming back. Eric Montrose, Eric Bell, Brian Reeves, Donald Williams, they all were coming back. So I'm like, damn, you can't get no better than that. So along with, you know. Stackhouse too, right? And Stackhouse coming in. Yeah, he was my,

he was my brother coming in with me in that freshman class, him and Jeff McGinnis. So that's, that's other, two other guards that I trusted. So I'm like, damn, it's a no brainer.

And boom, ended up going down there to Carolina and the rest was history with that. So it would have been because you were two years and who knows, I mean, it's the same thing as Georgetown. Your second year, Iverson would have been a you were two years and who knows i mean it's the same thing as georgetown your second year iverson would have been a freshman right right just like just like my if i would have stayed for my junior year um vince carter and antoine jameson would have been

a freshman yeah because that was right imagine that five you had the back-to-back drafts well not back-to-back drafts but you had not back-to-back drafts, but you had the class gap there where a couple years after you guys, then those guys went top five. Yeah. Hey, Rasheed, a lot of respect. Really appreciate it. And hopefully we'll catch up again. All right?

Oh, no problem at all. Anytime, man. Just send out the invite. I'm here. Ryan on the drive. Gets inside. Misses. Garnett nearly tips it in.

As is posing. He falls down but gets the outlet pass Do you know how many loose balls James Posey has had tonight, how many difficult plays he's made, it's not going to show in the statutes other than he is a winning type of player That's Jeff Van Gundy the abc call during the 2008 nba finals of the celtics and lakers talking about all the things james posey brings to a team that impacts winning so let's talk with james

before you became an nba champion twice you're coming out of twinsburg ohio you had a plan for skip prosser xavier did you have any other offers, though, from bigger schools? You know, you get letters from everybody, for the most part, if you're good. So when it came down to it was my grades. I ended up being a Prop 48. So once, you know, teams realized, those schools realized that, they fell off for the most part. So it was only three schools.

It was Xavier, it was most part so it was only uh three schools it was Xavier it was Dayton and it was Indiana and Indiana uh only reason like I took a visit there uh and that was because my high school coach coach Casey and Bob Knight had a little you know had a friendship and so you know I was able to take that visit up there to Indiana and I was like man you know Indiana you know Bob Knight you know at the time how he was I was like man I don't even know, I was able to take that visit up there to Indiana. And I was like, man, you know, Indiana, you know, Bob Knight, you know, at the time how he was. I was like, man, I don't even know if I could play for Bob Knight. But those were my only options, you know, my senior year. And I took the visit to Dayton as well. Coach Purnell, he was there.

Dayton, they were on the rise. And then a black coach in Dayton, I was like, okay, that would be cool. And then Xavier, I took that visit down to Xavier with my high school coach. And it was, you know, they kept saying it was a small school and a big-time basketball program. a small school and a big time basketball program. And, you know, I went to, it was Xavier and, um, Ohio, uh, you basketball game and you have, uh, Gary Trent, you know what I'm saying? Uh, the shack of the Mac, uh, the shack of the Mac,

I think they used to call them that. And I seen that game. And it was just something about being on that small campus at the time, watching the style of play, and then also with Coach Prosser and Coach Battle just trusting me and thinking I could just help them change that program around. And so knowing my situation, they told me that they wanted me to come there regardless of my grades. They still wanted me there. And so in doing so, I had my freshman year.

I couldn't practice with the team. I was around the team at study hall, and I had to maintain a 2.5 just to get my scholarship for my sophomore year. And so during that time, it was a lot of growing up on my end as far as being a young man, dedicating myself to actually doing schoolwork and making sure I maintained or get my 2.5. And basketball-wise, I had to work on my game outside of the team.

I played the intramural league. What was that like, James Posey intramural savior? That must have been horrifying. Well, yeah, thanks to a good friend of mine. His name is Chuck Crocker. We call him Chuck Chillout um he drafted me he played baseball at Xavier and so he wanted me to play on his team so I'm in the in the murals I'm averaging like 45 points and stuff like that we winning I'm ducking shooting threes and everything and so that was my season and that was my approach to it that was the only way I was able to get some some burn you know up

and down run and some type of competition. And like I said, I was just doing the competition. But for me, that was my season. And that's the only thing I could, you know, to lean on to help me get through that first year. So, like I said, being at Prop 48, just that one year was just like lessons. You know, I found out a little bit about myself more so on both ends,

basketball wise and academically. James, I really appreciate it. Again, you can check them out. The pose cast basketball news.com. James Posey. Thanks.

Thanks for having me. Anderson comes back to the hall. What's O'Neal? Chip Jam Jermaine O'Neal. 18 year old man child. Jermaine O'Neal. 18-year-old man-child, Jermaine O'Neal with a two-handed chip jab, and the Blazers take the lead. Jermaine O'Neal during his rookie season in the NBA coming right out of high school, courtesy of KSTW. He was the 17th pick in 1996.

Jermaine, I can't imagine all the options that you had coming out of high school, but what's your best story out of that time? Was there any chance that you were going to go to college? Man, I don't know if I had any funny things. I remember, yeah, I'm from Columbia, South Carolina, so the University of South Carolina was literally like 10 minutes, you know, from my house. And I remember going to the game and they had like this, like this, like Stigman or from Wizard of Oz. It was the guy with the...

The Tin Man? Not Tin Man, but... Scarecrow? Scarecrow. Scarecrow. He's running around with a sign saying, with Jermaine is no place like home. And it's like became a slogan, right?

They started putting it up on billboards and we have bumper stickers. And it became crazy because obviously people don't realize myself, Ray Allen, Garnett, were all playing basketball in South Carolina. Garnett left to go to Malden his senior year. Obviously, Ray played throughout and then went to Connecticut. So they had this crazy pitch to create this, like, new, like, fab five.

You know, they got B.J. Mackey, and they got another player, and they were waiting on the three of us. But obviously, the two left, and I was the last one, so they were all in with it. And it was just like this crazy hysteria. But at the same time, Maryland has Joe Smith recruiting. And so at the time, Joe Smith was my favorite college player. So I'm on the phone with him and I'm like, damn, like this Joe on the phone. Right. I'm watching him just murder people in college.

And so it made it crazy. And then you got Patino coming down sitting in my living room and it's like, it's like, damn, what am I, what am I supposed to do? Right. And it just, it became so crazy, you know, with the recruitment that, you know, it was like, it was like a, it was like overload, you know, and the NBA and the NBA was like okay well we know if he comes out you know and shout out to Arne Tellem who was my agent um in my entire career he did a great job on information Sonny DeCaro as well was phenomenal for me as well on on uh you know keeping me up to

date with what was going on and I just so happened to come out and probably maybe the top two if not the best draft class in 96. And that was probably the funniest thing because when I did make a decision to go pro, everybody hadn't declared yet. So every week, I'm like, holy shit. Like, will I still be in the top, you know, 10, top 17? I mean, like every week it was like somebody coming out and I'm like, because back then people got to understand when you made yourself eligible

for the draft, you gave up your college eligibility. Like it's over, right? I had to go find, I'm thinking like, okay, well, damn, this don't go right. And I'm going to have to go find me a job somewhere, you know, because this is, you know, this is kind of the nature of what it is. But it was an intense time, man. And, you know, if I had a chance to do it all over again,

I'd probably do the same thing, man, because I learned lot and it really helped me as as as the person i am today how much did you talk to kg about him coming out the year prior you know what i didn't have one conversation with him the person that i did talk to a lot um it was interesting because tim thomas um myself kobe bryant the late great kobe b Kobe Bryant, and a guy named Lester Earl and Ronnie Fields were like the five guys that were, you know, we're having a lot of conversation about coming out and in particular, Tim Thomas and Kobe Bryant, right? So we were really tight and we're talking about the process and we're like, man, what are you going to do?

And it became more and more of a reality the closer we got to it uh we all knew you know cobes and the whole time he wasn't going to school right so we knew he wasn't going to school so it was more me and tim by the way can i jump in because it's just so funny how much better your information was like because these were your friends and the rest of us on the outside be like man kobe might go to du Duke. Kobe might do this. KG might do this. And like, even the idea, like Ray Allen in South Carolina, like, yeah, it's probably going to UConn. I can't imagine how much more honest you guys were with each other because

you got a bunch of adults trying to get in your business the whole time. Listen, and we're trying to, we're trying to keep all options on the table, but we know exactly, you know, and again, for me, I didn't necessarily know towards until like the end. I was really shocked that Tim didn't go because Tim probably physically was probably the one that was ready the most physically, right? 6'9 guy, 220, 230, did it all. He was almost too good for high school, to be completely honest. And then Kobe the whole time, you know, saying, you know, I'm going pro, right? And they did a phenomenal job on keeping things quiet.

But in those locker rooms and in those hotels, you know, he told us what he was doing. So there wasn't one school that you were, like, this close to going to? Kentucky. Kentucky. It would have been Kentucky. I'm going to tell you, the ceiling deal was the last recruitment period. And Rick Pitino came down. He sat in my living room with me and my mom.

And at the time, as a single parent, we don't have a lot of real information outside of what's been given to us. So we don't know. We've got to take in what everybody's telling us. We've got to hope that the information is true. But there's no guarantee at the same time. So I'm sitting in, I'm sitting in the living room and Patino sitting there and he said, Hey, he said, Jermaine, look, you know, we're going to be good with you,

but we're going to be good without you. We'd love to have you, but I think you should go pro. And I was like, I was like, Oh, because I had some challenges, you know, I had a little situation my senior year. And he, the thing that I really respected and he was the one that really kind of, you know, put me over the top on deciding to go pro. He said, look, I have a ton of relationships in the NBA, you know, you for sure, or it can be a first round of you for sure. I think he said, you won't fall past 15, right.

You know, going 17. And then once, you know, once we did And then once we got the information, everything else started coming in to those same numbers between 10 and 17 pick in that draft, which was still pretty phenomenal because it was some killers out there coming out of college. That's the same thing I hear from every guy that had dealings with Rick, played for Rick or didn't, is that he would always be like, all right, go pro. It's crazy. It's crazy. And I think that's why he actually got a lot. I mean, not only is he a great coach,

but he would be pretty straight with a lot of guys. Because then the other guys would be like, oh, he didn't want Donovan Mitchell to leave. I'm like, dude, I got like 20 stories of other guys. Rick was saying, don't come back next year. You can't come back. Right. You know, if you were selfish, you'd be telling you guys, Hey, you're probably not good

enough, which I'm sure some other coaches definitely would do with guys. Cause you're like, yeah, you're not ready. You're not ready. And it's like, what do you mean? I'm like lottery, man. What do you mean? I'm not ready. So, um, anyway, he got it. I mean, he, he, I think he really understood. And the thing that really, um, I really respected that he did the work, right. He was in the stands, you know, he was in, you know, in the community, he was, he was doing where he, I think he needed to see people's environment, right. He needs, he needed to understand, he needed to feel it. And I thought he did a phenomenal job on that.

And I was able to talk to, you know, Antoine and some other guys that are at the school. And everybody said the same thing. It's like, look, you know, he's a tough, hard-nosed coach. He's going to scream. He's going to yell. But he's going to be honest. And that's all.

You know, when somebody tells you, look, we're going to be good with you, without you, you know, how much more honest can you get, you know, in a situation like that in the recruiting process? You know what? He was right, too. They wanted him what he was right too they wanted that's right jermaine thanks a lot man all right thanks for having me amari stoudemire 610 245 he's not sure where he's going next year could be memphis could be right to the nba that says he's got got a little Chris Webber Kevin Garnett combination in his game oh that's a beauty that's a big one tens all around let's see that's is that a perfect 80 the first perfect score Amari Stoudemire at the 2002 high school dunk contest.

Audio courtesy of ESPN. Amari, you're another guy straight out of high school, but what was the process like? What's the best recruiting story you can remember before you decided to turn pro? What a lot of people don't know is that I was aiming on going to the NBA from high school since my freshman year.

So I was, I used to, I used to write with a sharpie, which I think was, I wasn't supposed to play vandalizing nowadays, but I used to write with a sharpie on this, on the bleachers in school and in the stadiums, you know, straight out of high school. And I would sign my signature and I I would do that, like, in five different places. And that was just my freshman year in high school. And so my mindset was always, like, to, you know, to go out of high school and be a force throughout my career. And so when it all happened and when I was focusing on my senior year

decision, whether I'm going to high school or to college, I actually thought about going to college then. I was like, you know what? I like this campus. I like the college environment. I know a lot of the players that are going to be there. And so I verbally committed to Memphis, but I had my mind set on the NBA.

So had you gone to college, though, you still would have gone to Memphis? It all depended on if DeJuan Wagner would have stayed, if Quintel Woods would have gone to memphis it all depended on if the one wagner would have stayed if quintel woods would have you know went to memphis and we had a nice solid team to to contend for a championship yes i would have went to memphis what was it like then telling coach cal like hey you know i know i committed but i'm not coming to memphis yeah i actually sat down with with the coach i sat down uh uh down with Coach Calipari at the time, and I was like, you know, I'm not verbally committed to you guys,

but I'm going to take my chance at the NBA. I verbally committed to Memphis before the McDonald's game and before the Jordan-Calvin Classic. I got the MVP of Jordan-Calvin Classic, but my mind was set on the NBA, and once I felt very confident to make the announcement, that's when I spoke to Memphis and told them I was going to go to the NBA. What did Cal say?

Cal said, I knew it the whole time, kid. At guard for Georgia Tech, a 6'3 sophomore from Port Washington, Maryland, number three, Jarrett Jack. That's Jarrett Jack getting announced for Georgia Tech at the 2004 national title game against UConn on CBS. Okay, so let's go back to your younger days, a bunch of different high schools. What was your process like

that led to the decision ultimately landed you at Georgia Tech? To be honest, man, I started out at DeMatha. So, you know, they have three teams there. They have freshman, JV, varsity.

So they were the number one team in the country that year. And at DeMatha, no freshman plays varsity. I think it was maybe one in the history of the school or maybe two. So I was able to leapfrog over the freshman team. I played JV, played well, started, had a strong season.

And then coming back the following year, they thought I should play JV again. And I thought that was kind of stunting my growth to a degree. So I decided to transfer and left there. Came across a program in Mount Zion, nationally ranked program. Obviously, that's attractive to a young kid when you're opening up the USA Today or you're reading the rankings and these high profile schools and teams and they're playing all over the place. So I jumped at the opportunity. Stayed there for two years.

The coach and the pastor who kind of butted heads a little bit and the team and kind of dissipated. And that next year, you know, I kind of had a meeting with my mom and some other people that was kind of advising us. And I was like, look, I need to go somewhere that's really going to challenge me kind of had a meeting with my mom and some other people that was kind of advising us. And I was like, look, I need to go somewhere that's really going to challenge me kind of on the academic side. Like I'm about to go to college. And that's how I found myself at Worcester Academy. You know, and that was where I spent my last year. You know, some of the craziest winners I've ever been a part of. But, you know, all in all uh the basketball program up there uh with coach

moca sarah and the whole staff they they did a hell of a job man helping me with my transition going into my freshman year yeah for anybody that knows the scene and you know me being from massachusetts we know it's a factory you know there's there's a handful of the schools up in the northeast and you mentioned a couple of ones the mid-atlantic and all that kind of stuff but you're coming out 2000 2001 you're the number nine point guard in the class. So what is the most memorable moment you have during that recruiting process?

Probably the most memorable, man. It's kind of not the best story. It's kind of an eye-opening situation. So my last two schools, I was trying to figure out if I was going to go to Georgia Tech, obviously where I ended up going, and then it was Michigan State.

So the day when, so I think Darren Williams was about to go. So I was all set about to go on my visit to Michigan State. And then I think Darren Williams was about to go visit Georgia Tech. And my coach pulled me aside. He's like, yo, that kid is going to Georgia Tech today. And I'm like, okay, so what? He's like, yo, but what if he commits on the visit? He was like, they told you they like you the most.

But what if that kid commits? Then, you know, whatever. So now I was sitting there. And I'm like, I said, said man Georgia Tech is really where I want to go I was just going to go to Michigan State see the place check it out I was a big fan of Tom Izzo um just to check it out though like I didn't you know didn't want to rush my decision whatever so I called them I think it was like a Thursday, something like that, because I was supposed to leave the next day to go to Michigan State. I called and committed, told coach, called Coach Izzo, you know, thank you for everything.

But I think I know where I'm going. I want to say that next day, 9-11 happens. 9-11 happens. And I think we all, if you're of a certain age, I think we all are aware of the effects of, everybody knows where they were when that took place. And for me,

finding out that the plane that did the damage, it left out of Boston Logan Airport. That's the airport I was supposed to be flying out of going to Michigan State. So when I found that out, I'm thinking like, maybe not, I'm on the plane, obviously, but what if I was in line with the guys that did all this terrible, terrible stuff? What if we were in

security line together or, you know, just weird. Like what if I actually interacted with somebody that put this whole country or the world in, in, in this crazy, crazy thing that they thought to do for whatever reason. And that, that part of it, that was like the probably the biggest part of my recruitment process that was like crazy. And so, yeah, I mean, I guess on top of everything else,

if you hadn't committed to Georgia Tech, then maybe, you know, maybe a bunch of chain reaction things happen. Obviously not. Who knows, right? Yeah. Who knows? Weird, weird.

Because at first, you know, I wasn't as familiar with the names of airports at the time. So when they kept left out of Logan Airport and I'm like, I don't know. I only knew the airport from, you know, D.C. or Maryland where I'm from. So, you know, I wasn't familiar with it like that. So then when I found out it was it left out of the and I was like, oh, wow. Like that was like a crazy, crazy, crazy moment for me. Robert Ory had three blocked shots in the first half.

Watch Wallace go in. Ory blocks it by reaching back. Day gets the rebound. Ory's back again, slaps it away. Now watch him come up with the ball, takes it, goes to the other end, brings it down. What's he do? Delivers the ball to Sprewell on the break.

Robert Ory with a great effort. Robert Ory at Alabama showing a little bit of everything against Arkansas in the SEC tournament back in 1992 courtesy of JP Sports. So I want to go back to your high school career, Robert. You were the player of the year in Alabama. You go to to go back to your high school career, Robert. You were the player of the year

in Alabama. You go to Alabama. Give me your best story and all the stuff that went into that decision. I think for me, the one memory that stands out the most is I used to be in ROTC because my dad was in the military. So I used to do ROTC. So one day I'm giving cadence. I'm out and they made me mad about someone. I said, okay, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to lay down in the shade and y'all going to get out there in the sun and march. And so I'm laying there. I just happened to look over. I see this head full of white hair. I'm like, is that Bobby Cremins? And I look, I said, oh shit, that's Bobby Cremins. So I jump up and I act like I'm running the cage, right?

But he didn't see me. And I think, because coming out of high school, I really, really wanted to go to Georgia Tech. Because you know how it is in Alabama. It's football first, football second, football third. I was like, I want to go somewhere where all they care about is basketball. And so I was really wanting to go to Georgia Tech, but he started recruiting me too late. And I had already fell in love with Wimpsanis in the Alabama program. And the other crazy thing, we used to have, this is going to sound crazy. We used to have the world championship of dominoes held in my town, Andalusia, Alabama. And I'm like, what? And so Wimp and Sonny Smith came to that tournament just to sit down and play

dominoes. so they have a chance to talk to me. So I'm like, really, dude, you guys don't even play dominoes. What are y'all doing here? But I think those two stories are the stories that stand out in my mind because, you know, recruiting was a little bit different back then. And those were the three, my top three schools that I was thinking about outside of Wake Forest. And it hurt my heart when I signed with Alabama because, you know, growing up, you wanted to be, just to hear them say, the rambling wreck of Georgia Tech, I wanted to say that so much. But, hey, it turned out well.

I went to Alabama. I had a great time, four years there. And I'm very happy that I chose them because Wim Sanderson made a, him and Kevin Gray were huge inspiration guys in my life. And they took a country boy and turned him into a country man. Was there anyone else that was like, you had a moment as a young kid where you're like, man, maybe I go to the Big East or maybe I would go to India.

I'm just trying to think of all the guys that I talked to. A lot of guys will have this brief, immature moment where they start daydreaming about a completely different experience. I thought about it when they had the three amigos at Georgia Tech. And I said, man, I could have been the fourth amigo. I couldn't have been the four amigos. I used to think about that. But then I look over there, Keith Askins, David Benoit, Spree Will, James Robinson.

I'm like, man, we got a ton of pros up in here. All I'm going to do is get better. Also, guys like Derek McKee used to come back and play with us in the summertime to try to get us ready. I was just very happy after you sit back and think about it. This was

a perfect choice for me because they actually helped me grow up. They still have the love for me. They stayed on my butt about graduating, which I just did, you know, a couple of months ago. So they stayed on me. Think about it. I'm 20 years removed from college. They were still on my butt about graduating. So I'm glad I went there. That's really cool. And I'm happy for you. So congrats on that story. You want details? Bye. I drive a Ferrari.

355 Cabriolet. What's up? I have a ridiculous house in the South Fork. I have every toy you could possibly imagine. And best of all, kids, I am liquid. So, now you know what's possible. Let me tell you what's required. Life advice is lifeadvicerr at gmail.com.

Our guy checking in. Love the show. 31 years old. Six foot even. 190 pounds. Can do 40 straight solid non-CrossFit push-ups. And run a mile and a half in 10 minutes. What's a CrossFit push-up?

Like a fake one? No, those are CrossFit pull-ups or fake ones. How those ever developed into a thing that counted for anything. People really are like, man, did you see that guy? He did 100 pull-ups in a row. I'm like, which kind? Because there's

a big difference. People look at box jumps and then they're like, that guy has a 70-inch vert. You're like, no, he doesn't. It's different. Wait, what's a CrossFit pull-up or push-up then? I don't get it. I don't even know. I've never even heard of it.

I'm not knocking CrossFit. Good for everybody that's in there. I think your pull-ups are fucking lame, have been from the get-go. I've got to tell you, a mile and a half in 10 minutes. All right. I don't think that's... but you know what i like about this guy is that he said mile and a half and 10 minutes i don't think he was doing it to brag i think he was just doing a baseline so let's let me uh let's not be critical he's just sharing it with us hey what's up 40 push-ups sounds pretty good all right let's get to the fucking email sorry this email is about my

longtime buddy met him in high school, who has slash had Orlando Magic season tickets. Hey, Cerruti, that's your squad. Nice. He's got himself in a bit of a situation. My buddy, let's call him George, not his real name. Thank you, emailer.

Split season tickets with a coworker the past three years. Each year, he would just Venmo the guy for his share of the tickets. So the other guy had the tickets in his name. He would Venmo his share. George found out last month his coworker has now tragically passed away from cancer.

This took a turn. George had no idea that the guy that he'd bought the tickets with was even sick. The coworker didn't share it with anyone. He left behind a grieving wife. The dilemma is, can George reach out about the tickets? Well, the first answer right away here is no. So let's keep going to the email.

My initial reaction was just to go to the Alerno Magic, call, explain the situation, but George has no paper trail, nothing with his name on it. He would just Venmo the coworker the money. After he explained that to me, I think George is out the 2,000. No way to confront a widow about some NBA season tickets.

I think you're answering your own question here, man. George countered with, what if he reached out to the widow? This guy likes the match is this george costanza who is this i think it sounds like a george costanza it does sound like a george costanza but if he's 31 seinfeld i don't know i mean you guys are younger so maybe you watch the reruns but uh yeah it does. Look, every now and then, some of these will happen. I came across another one the other day that was like a Melrose Place plot,

and I just figured it out. I was like, all right. Even though it's a great email, I'm like, I'm not doing this. George countered with, what if he reaches out to the widow, offers his condolences, and to pay for her late husband's share of the tickets? That way she doesn't have to worry about selling them individually or getting a refund. I think you should just let this one go.

Thoughts? Your instincts are right on this one. I don't know how you do that. I don't know how you reach out. I mean, look, is there a small, if we want to just look at every angle of this, is there a small, small percentage that if you reached out? I love that George was like,

first I'll say I'm sorry, then I'll follow with. So about those magic tickets, chances are, let's go this way. First, the bigger percentage play. She's going to think your friend is a horrible human being. Losing two grand sucks. It sucks. Sometimes you're just going to lose the two grand though.

I wouldn't want to do it, but I also would like to think I have a decent enough of a heart and instincts to be like, you know, even whatever, I mean, losing two grand apps. Some of you guys are probably listening. It's been like,

dude, I'm not just going to eat the two grand. I think you kind of have to eat the two grand now to the small percentage thing that I was just mentioning a minute ago. I mean, could there be some weird win in this where you give this some time or you offer your condolences, then don't say anything about the tickets and then give it a few a burden to you and you're you have to like sell those tickets because you've already bought them to the team you know is there any way that i can help and then i don't know i mean but then it's like you can't be asking her for like what

if she says no or she doesn't know anything about it and then it's like well hey by the way he owed me two grand because i paid for the tickets i mean mean, that's really, really tough to pull off. I mean, you could try to explain it through Orlando Magic, but I just don't know that any institution at that level is going to go like, hey, we'll take your word for it without any evidence whatsoever that you're connected to this other guy's season tickets. So this does not sound like an easy one. I would lean towards probably not saying anything. And the magic aren't really that good. That's a good point. Yeah.

Maybe you saved. Was it only two grand for the season tickets? Did you have to kick in more a little bit later? So you could look at it that way. I lost two, but I saved four. So you just made two grand. Do you think Venmo could help out? Probably not, right?

No. You can't like stop payment on a check like you can on a Venmo thing? I don't think so. But remember when I did my app rant about how these tech companies invent stuff that can never help you when something goes wrong? I don't.

Have you ever dealt with Venmo customer service? No. I actually have. I Venmo'd the wrong person like 200 bucks once. Whoa. So what happened, Suri? They, so I reached out to the person who I sent the wrong money to and they didn't get back to me, obviously.

Yeah. So then I hit up Venmo and they were actually kind of, to give them credit, they were actually kind of cool about it and refunded my 200 bucks a couple weeks later. Hey, look at that. Interesting. Venmo. Worked out. Yeah.

Pretty stupid move by me, but yeah, worked out. So were you concise is, or I guess there wasn't that much to, to like tell it, this would be a little bit more of a complicated story to tell. I mean, there was also a wrong person. They clearly knew,

like I reached out to them right after I did it. Like there seems, how do they know that this $2,000 was for magic tickets? Like what would they know it's for? You know, they don't know exactly what it's for. Maybe he wrote magic tickets in the memo. Who knows? But even so, I don't know. It's tough. I don't know exactly what maybe he wrote magic tickets in the memo who knows but even so i don't know stuff i don't know i don't know if

it's the same sort of uh if he's been doing it for years maybe there's like a year year to the date on the last four two thousand dollars and he's like listen the guy isn't alive anymore like what do you can we do anything about this i mean maybe not but i mean it's probably a lot easier than uh talking to a widow that's all i'm saying yeah i have no problem with the emailer's friend who's actually not named george starting with the magic i mean i don't know but this is just i don't i don't see i mean the fact that we're talking this through is actually making me feel guilty so i don't i'm not going to keep going with this one. The question I have for you guys, though, is that people Venmo money to the wrong people all the time, right?

And is it pretty much just understood that if you're on the other side of it, people are just telling everybody to go fuck themselves and not Venmoing the money back? I seem to hear that all the time. It only happened to me once. And it was a big amount of money. Shocker. Nothing. They didn't respond. That's why I had to reach out all the time. It only happened to me once. And it was a big amount of money. Shocker. Nothing. They didn't respond.

That's why I had to reach out to Venmo. But... And it was an active account of this other person or that they didn't ever... It was like one letter off. I sent it. It was stupid. And they...

I think I gave it a couple of days. They didn't respond. And Venmo was like, sure, we'll just... I don't know. See, here's what I don't know, though. I don't know if Venmo took the money from their account or Venmo just paid me $200 because they have some sort of like Here's what I don't know though. I don't know if Venmo took the money from their account or Venmo just paid

me $200 because they have some sort of insurance thing. I don't know. Kyle, you get Venmo'd $500 by the wrong guy. What do you do? That's your answer. That's fine. You don't have to say anything else. That's enough. That was enough. Let's see. We got one more. Let's do a wedding. One guys have a hard times wedding. I mean, you could start an entire wedding help podcast.

Uh, I will not host it, but there's, uh, there's a lot of people out there that need and honestly i always think the wedding shit is really simple here but um all right anyone uh as anyone who writes a big fan okay we got a potentially awkward wedding moment love your thoughts on a guy i work with is getting married in october he's someone i'm fairly close with he's getting married in another state though and so i'm only going to know four or five people invited. All right. So just right out of the jump here, there are already, there are already like little mental roadblocks that you've put up. You put up two. It's like, yeah, it's in another state. A lot of weddings in our other states, man, they've been doing it for a long time. Um, and then he follows immediately with like, I'm going to know four or five people.

I can already tell you don't want to go to this. All right, no biggie. Here's the catch. One of the people is someone who's pissed at me that's going to be at the wedding. Me, the person who's... Wait a minute, wait a minute. Me, the person whose wedding it is,

and her actually worked on a team together. Oh, okay, So it's you, the person getting married, and then this female, you all work together on a team together. And I had to let her go nine months ago and we basically haven't spoken since. So you fired her and now she's going to be at the wedding nine months ago. She's not the most mature person. What if she's telling everybody this asshole that fired me is way too mature i don't want to see him at the wedding anyway so uh while nobody would take that news with a smile she was probably less in the right space than most when i was initially invited she wasn't on the invite list so i told

my buddy i would go fast forward a couple months still pre-official rsvp and now she's invited my buddy claims it'll be fine but he's also clueless to these types of things the way i see it i've got a few options shoot the girl a text and check in on how she's feeling about things, letting her know that if it'll be weird for me to be there, I won't go. I've been told she won't ever initiate this conversation. Just make life easy for everyone and don't go. This isn't a wedding I've been waiting for for years. Number three, what I presume to be Kyle's option, full send and go without checking ahead of time. He's right.

He's fucking right. I feel like if I knew dozens of folks going, it'd be fine, but the small circle of people I actually know makes this potentially awkward, and I'm just trying to avoid making these things weird on someone's wedding day. Kyle, let's actually go with you first because he offered up Kyle option three,

and he didn't just name it the Kyle option. That's what you would do in this. He's absolutely right. I will say I've never fired anyone. That does not surprise me. I don't. Every once in a while, you just say stuff that hurts. So I'm going to stop there. Wait, you're a young guy, Kyle. I don't think you'd be in charge of anything at any point that's all i was the treasurer for a fraternity that i almost joined wait they were gonna make you you were gonna make you treasure before you it was an expansion group of actually was a latino fraternity and it just for one reason or another it just didn't it didn't work out but i was the treasurer for the expansion group. I ended up actually,

we raised a bunch of money from throwing parties. And then, um, I actually spent all the money on the summer that I went home and then spent the rest of the summer getting it back. But I, I, I returned with all the money,

but I never had anyone under me. All right. Back up, back up. Kyle is so like, they were like, we don't care. Or do they find out you weren't latino and that's why it didn't work out no i mean they were like are you sure and i was like yeah i think so like

i think this is cooler than all the other fraternities that are currently around and the idea of setting it up was fun we basically got like a year of um you know just basically acting like a fraternity before we actually got to like go do the thing and then i kind of dropped out before we did the thing but for a year there was like or maybe it before we actually got to like go do the thing. And then I kind of dropped out before we did the thing. But for a year there was like, or maybe it was a semester. It seemed like it was going to happen. But the more that I was going in it,

I was like, I don't know if this is for me. But you weren't even going to get haze. They were just going to let you in and be in charge of all the money. I didn't like it. No, it was, it wasn't their money.

It was like the money that the expansion group was like collecting by like throwing parties and stuff. I don't know. This is confusing to me. So the fraternity was Latino. It wasn't. Yeah, pretty much. Okay. And then there was they decided to throw an addition on here. Like, exactly. All like a lot of my buddies were like New York, Dominicans and Puerto Ricans in Potsdam, New York. And they had like ties to people at like Oswego and Penn State where all these where these this fraternity was. And they were like, been trying to bring it for a while. And they were like, we're finally doing it. And I was like, well, I like you guys. And I don't know, I just kind of ran with it. And they were like, before we do this thing, we got to go by the book to the school, but you're an expansion group this

semester. So, you know, we need you to do the book through the school, but you're an expansion group this semester. So, you know, we need you to do some community service. I guess that's part of being a fraternity. And also, like, we need you to come up with some money. So they, like, drafted you into this, basically, into this new frat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You were part of the inaugural draft class. Came up with, like, $1,500, honestly. But then you spent the money that you well you know when you go back sometimes you you know you

missed the first paycheck for summer and then it's like oh shit i was already broke so it's like you missed the first paycheck and it's a two-week cycle so it's like a month before you get paid what am i supposed to do and i got 1500 in my in a little bankroll so it turns out you could spend 1500 in a month pretty easily so i spent the rest of the summer getting it back. I'm just speechless. I don't. It's not because it's so unbelievable. It's just that it's another layer to you that we're learning about.

I thought that would have been cool on the resume. Latino fraternity member. Almost. The thing is, you're like the least surprising. Yeah. Rudy adds in. Sketchy treasurer, but a treasurer who made mistakes and figured out a way to get things right.

Yeah, I atoned. I feel like this is a Netflix movie waiting to be made. It does. I don't know. It might be a limited series. I don't know if it's a movie, but I don't know what season two is. This guy's got wedding problems, though. Yeah. All right. So back to the wedding guy.

He doesn't want to go to this wedding. So I think you reward yourself with a good excuse to not go. I mean, you could reach out to her ahead of time. I mean, I would be more inclined to reach out to the person ahead of time, but it sounds like what's actually going to happen. Think of all the times you go, oh man, this person's there. I'm not going to want to see this person. Then you run into each other and everybody's fake for five minutes and then it's over. Then it doesn't matter. That's what I would do if I thought you wanted to go to the wedding, but just a bunch of the descriptions on this deal, I think it's fairly obvious. You don't even want to go and now you have a decent enough excuse and i think it's kind of a lame reason to not go to the wedding and you

have to think about like the guy that invited you does he really really want you there he must you know you guys work together or whatever but uh these these things this anxiety this pre-anxiety about all these interactions and stuff where it's like oh you know how's this gonna go although i may be weird because i sort of oddly get off on it i'm like oh cool this would be a little confrontation be interesting see what happens here what if i add this to the to the equation though there's a good chance he said he only knows a few people there so it's a good chance that they're going to be at the same table right i mean good question but i would have huge bummer you'd have to think though that like she's not gonna be dumb enough to put them at the same table

right and then yes okay so now you end up at a table maybe you don't know anyone that's another reason you may not want to go or maybe you just decide hey i'm gonna be somebody completely different i'm gonna tell everybody i'm a bounty hunter we met and we met in a latino fraternity i knew that was coming up right you know like be like, how do you know the groom? Well, you know, I don't share this with a lot of people. You just make up a whole character the entire night, play it out, try different lines, throw an accent in there. It'd be a huge adventure. You'd be a chapter in your book.

I don't have experience with not wanting to go to weddings, so I really don't know how he feels. It seems like you do. So if he really doesn't want to go, I guess, would your buddy be heartbroken is the question, but I wanted to go to every wedding I've ever been invited to. And now it's been two that have been canceled. So, you know, I'm ready to go. But if he's like, doesn't interested in a wedding, then I guess I didn't go to Saruti's wedding. And I think that's still harsh. Yeah. But the thing is I knew how little Saruti cared and it was a really, really tough time for me to pull it off and there's other people

that have still kind of given me shit about it but Saruti knows that I took care of him so I don't think he cares at all so that's why I'm more okay with it but I probably should have found a way to step up and go.

I don't care. I was stressed out at my own wedding so I don't know. I know you didn't care. Other people were disappointed in me though which is fine.

I will live with disappointment. Yeah. All right. That's life advice. Thanks to Mac Taibbi and all the guys in the recruiting stories. Check out his work. Coming up next week though, we have part two of

the Muhammad Ali podcast here. We're going to finish up with Sugar Ray. He's going to talk a little bit more about his career. Did he actually think he beat Hagler, but then come in full circle? Do fighters talk to each other about their health? And then Bob Arum, who has all sorts of Muhammad Ali stories. So part two of the Ali podcast, that's next week.

Thanks to Sruti. And of course, this close to being a Latino fraternity slash treasurer, except it didn't work out. Thank you. you