The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Dan Hurley on the UConn Draft Prospects and NBA Flirtation, Plus a Big NBA Draft Preview With Sam Vecenie

Episode Date: June 20, 2024

Russillo is joined by UConn head coach Dan Hurley to learn more about UConn’s draft prospects and discuss the Lakers head-coaching job (0:35). Then, Sam Vecenie comes on to preview the lottery picks, talk about the strength of the class, and break down Bronny James (27:36). Finally, Life Advice with Ceruti and Kyle (88:50)! Can I hit on girls at the gym? Check us out on YouTube for exclusive clips, live streams, and more at https://www.youtube.com/@RyenRussilloPodcast The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out rg-help.com to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Host: Ryen Russillo Guest: Dan Hurley and Sam Vecenie Producers: Steve Ceruti, Kyle Crichton, and Mike Wargon Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's podcast is stacked. Danny Hurley, head coach of UConn. I want to talk about his draft prospects, two lottery picks in there as well. Also how he has things rolling at UConn and his Lakers flirtation. Sam Vassini and I are going to break down a bunch of the lottery picks. I think pretty much almost all of them all over the place and we'll also talk a little Brownie James as we get a week out from the NBA Draft and of course, life advice. Danny Early joins us. I'm really excited about doing this and I know that we can kind of pivot to some other things here despite the content that's going on. I probably will get to that a little bit later but thanks for doing, man. Good to see you.

No, my pleasure, Ryan. Great to be on this. All right. Let's get into the guys, the pre-draft stuff. When teams call you about Klingen, what are those conversations like? They're sad when he leaves. I mean, they're sad when he leaves the facility and the visits over and the workouts over. It just comes from a personality standpoint and from the human element, he's just so impressive and he's just so filled with life and he's got such an incredible personality.

So before you even get to the basketball background, you're just bringing somebody into your organization that just kind of blows you away with the charisma and the pop that he brings with him. Yeah, in today's NBA, we get real greedy. Whenever I'm doing draft prep, it's like, oh, Klingon's great at all these other things, but man, I wish he could kind of do these other things.

And then sometimes I'm wondering, do we screw that up? Do we get in our own way of like, not every guy's gonna check every single skill box. So do you think the teams that you talk to, because it seems like when I'll talk to teams, it's like, hey, you know who might just like go one, or maybe somebody will move up for them, it's Klingon. Do you think teams understand that,

okay, maybe he's not ever gonna be a stretch five, but all these other things are still super valuable in today's world. Yeah, I think so. I think a lot of teams I've talked to, I think they see it that way. I think a lot of the teams that are considering him or are really excited about him, they've been at multiple practices the last two years. They've not just shown up at games where we're playing to win. So we're really sticking to the script of things that are going to give Yukon the best chance of win, which he conformed to. But if you go and see summer practices

or you see a practice in October, you see maybe different elements to his game. You'd have a chance to maybe watch him handle the ball away from the basket more, shoot more threes, experiment a little bit more. And then you obviously get a chance to see his evolution of what he was when he came in the door here as a young player as a freshman and Then see you know what what he's leaving You know as a two-time, you know champion, but I think You know, he's he's shown You know a lot a lot of different things that he can do as a passer as a five out

as a five out center and in the as a five out center in the dribble handoff game where he could off the dribble pass cutters. I think he showed a great passing ability to feel for that. As a rim runner and as a lob guy and as a roller, he's shown that. As a short roll guy that can catch it and find cutters or spray it out to the three point line. And then obviously covering the entire court. The guy's an athlete. If you put him, if you played a baseball game, you'd play him at shortstop or center field.

If you threw him a football, Ryan, like he'd catch it clean and then he'd throw it like a quarterback. So it's rare that a seven foot two guy is like a real athlete. What I've loved about your offense at UConn, and I know you got into depth of kind of explaining it to JJ Reddick on his pod, which all of us as basketball junkies loved.

And when I watched you throughout this season, I go, you know, one of the things I always love about the Warriors is that they never really stop the possession. They always have like the next thing. And if you get shut off in your first thing, it's like, oh wait, but there's this other cutter, and then there's somebody else repositioning.

And I think what it does is it lets everybody feel involved. And when I'm thinking about different football people that I've talked to, I don't know if Piole's the first person I ever had say it, but he was like, if you want a smart team, draft smart players. When you're building out your roster each year, is it that you have more trust or you're recruiting the players that understand like, we don't just run a high ball screen and then hope it works.

Like we were going to ask you to keep playing and be engaged in the possession. Yeah, right. I tried that first thing you said, try to run the ball street and then pray it works. That got us eliminated in the first round of the tournament quickly. And I was a lot less popular then. So we changed a lot of just roster construction,

things we value in terms of giving up a little bit of athleticism for guys that could process the game, players that could think and pass and shoot and understand a complex offensive system. So for us, yeah, I mean, we have, you know, initial entries that we like to run, but we talk a lot about like, what do we do to keep the music playing? Yeah, like what types of cuts, you know, what types of split games?

We just give our players a lot of different options, you know, to play after that initial action doesn't work so that we can continue to stress the defense. If you continue to stress the defense, eventually, it's going to break down and you're either going to get that rim two that you want, that paint three that you want, that paint kick out three that you want, or eventually, the defense is going to get tired. They're going to foul you. You see when I watch you and I just was in love with this year because there's just a lot of teams. There's usually

two sometimes even three guys like well if the ball ends up in his hands like okay, whatever. I'm not that worried about it and I kept watching you going man if it ends up in his hands, he's fine obviously cam or castle or caravan and then Klingons passing and there was just like six, seven guys deep where I go, I actually not worried when this player has the ball. So was it a recruiting decision or are you perhaps more, more trusting? Cause I think a lot of coaches would be like, Hey, you never get to touch the ball unless it's desperation. Yeah, it's, it's, it's those two things without question. It's a philosophical shift

in terms of what you're going to value in terms of the trades. It's taking practice time. I was always a big culture. Culture and, all right, guys, let's go run through that brick wall right there. And we're going to win the game in rock, rock, fight, fashion., guys, let's go run through that brick wall right there. And we're going to win the game in rock, rock fight fashion. We're just going to bludgeon the other guy with culture and effort. So some of it was just taking a lot more of like on court time and video time of breaking down these offensive concepts. So you know, just taking time from defense and rebounding and,

and, uh, which is tough for a coach, especially a coach, uh, with my, with my history. Um, and, uh, and then also too, just like, you know, we're, we're going live all summer, like, uh, a lot of college programs, either, um, the, the workouts are optional or it's a lot of fundamental, you know, one on O or four on O. Like we're going live all summer long for eight weeks. In all of the offensive concepts that we imagine ourselves playing this summer,

obviously, you know, we're getting used to new personnel. So we're gonna tailor it to what this group looks like in their strengths and weaknesses, but like, you know, a lot of it is, when you have a high school coach's background, I'm not married to a system, so a lot of our summer we're gonna spend experimenting with a lot of concepts and see if it fits the group.

It's easy to say when you're running a program that you want to have a standard, okay? And I remember going to those games and stores and going to the Civic Center and watching UConn just get their heads kicked in by all these great NBA players. And then Calhoun shows up and you're like, wait, they're gonna be good?

And anybody that knows the area, and I've talked about this after all these titles, the program wins, it's like, it, they're gonna be good? And anybody that knows the area, and I've talked about this after all these titles, the program wins, it's like, it's still kinda, cause I've been everywhere in college, basketball and football. I've been to all these other campuses, all the other places. I'm like, stores, man, this is unbelievable.

So the standard is there because of what's happened. Prior to, do you still sense, and maybe it's easy cause it's still recent with the back to back titles that you've won, but that you're getting a kid that comes in that understands the history and understands that there is this kind of standard, as you just sort of expressed, like when you show up in the off season here, we're like, we're going live. Like we're not screwing around. Yeah.

I listen, you know, Ryan, I go back to, um, Tate George was, it was, it was, it was a really big deal as a high school player in Jersey. And when he committed to UConn, I remember like saying to my brother, like, what's UConn? Like, why is he not going to Carolina or, you know, or Villanova or, you know, or Kentucky or Kansas? Wait, what's UConn, Bob? And that's how quickly that,

you know, that whole thing that, that, that script flipped, um, cause in that, you know, not too far down the road, I was at the metal lands, you know, watching them, you know, beat Clemson and, uh, to go to the elite eight. And then, and then those, some of those, those Duke games, uh, the late nor side out of bounds shot to eliminate UConn. So yeah, I mean, like this basketball thing that's been built here has not been built on, hey, come here and be a high draft pick. And like we live off of just kind of this, these promises of just the brand of our program, this big blue blood brand

and hey, come here, you'll be a lottery pick. Like this UConn basketball thing has been built on like on winning and championships and and a relentless pursuit of championships with Geno's 11 and coach Calhoun's three. And Kevin Ali went in the fourth and then the sixth that now we have overall and they're all within the last 30 years. So just our basketball thing is different here. People don't pick UConn for the wrong reasons. You don't come here and go for 110,000 people at a football game or you don't pick it because you think,

you know, shit is all sweet here. You know, like this is like, you pick UConn basketball because you want to be compared to like great players. And then like, if you don't win a major championship, like maybe your career was underwhelming or maybe even a little bit of a failure and that's heavy. Yeah. Well, that's well said. Castle. So he's a big time recruit. He comes in and we know he's going to be a lottery pick.

I'll admit, I never thought of him as a point guard when I watched and I know that's kind of how he's being packaged, which is always part of my favorite pre-draft stuff. It's like, look, what he is right now is really, really good. And he wasn't going to have a ton of options offensively to initiate stuff because of the roster you had, you didn't need him to do those things, but what's the best way of, of all of us on the outside, understanding like the full capacities of his game that maybe didn't always see

it in game. Yeah. You know, Ryan, it's just Ryan, there's just so much there. And then I always like, you know, going to the person and to, you know, the inner circle. And you see it with, you know, with some of the young talent in the NBA, you could tell that there was maybe not a great inner circle

or maybe not enough old school values with the player. This guy's got just incredible people around him. He's a ball player. He's not a tick tocker or a social meet. That's not his deal. He's a ball player. He loves the game. He's a pleaser. He's a winner. He's a pleaser. You know, he's a winner. So all, you know, he's got a humility about him. He wants to be drafted by a great organization. I don't think it matters to him as much or even Donovan as much as where they go as to who they go to, because they want to go to an organization that resembles a little bit

of what their college experience was in terms of the structure and the organization. So I liken him to like a Drew Holliday type of guard in terms of like defensive stopper at one through four positions because of the size and the physical strength. A guy that when he's on ball can make all the right reads, has got the finishing ability at the rim. You also too, you saw Drew Holliday in those like quick rolls as a guard

and the havoc that that created with the Maverick defense in the finals. So he's an incredible competitor. He's a winner. I see a lot of similarities between him and probably a Drew Holliday. I'm always gonna root for guys like Cam Spencer because I know his story's all over the place.

The shooting numbers are great. I've gotten in arguments with other people about it because I know how much I like the draft, and I go, I'll tell you what he isn't. That guy's never been afraid in his life. And he's, look, he's bigger, you know, the prototypical like, wait, that guy's gonna be in the NBA. And I think he has a chance.

I really do think he has a chance. What are the conversations like with him on his potential to be drafted? Yeah, I think, you know, from that 30 to 40, that, you know, that 30 to 45 range where there's guaranteed contracts to players in that range, I think there's several teams that really value the level that he shoots the ball at. I mean, he was a hair away from that exclusive 50,

45, 90 club, which not a lot of guys hit at the college level. You know, he obviously it looks slow and it probably is slow. Yes, it is slow looking. And then like when you see it, it's slow in terms of way he moves, but he gets to all of his spots against, whether that was Devin Carter this year in the Big East, who's gonna be a high draft pick, or other players that he destroyed in a mound conference or the NCAA tournament. So the shooting you could see for yourself, the competitiveness, the fire,

what he brings to an organization that way, I think, you know, is a real plus for him. But I know it looks slow and I know it looks unathletic, but against the best teams and the best players that are all going to play in the NBA, he got to his spots. He was able to get to the rim. He got to the mid-range. And he's the exact type of guy you want to bring to your organization and bet on. I was at the Stetson tournament game and I was sitting kind of like, you know, a few rows behind

you guys and you're up 30. I mean, look, it's the kind of game that's supposed to happen. You're supposed to dominate that game. And I was watching Castle play defense off the ball when you're up 30 and I went, you've got to be kidding me. OK, like he is playing and we could get into the hole like you owe it to your teammate thing and you're prideful on stuff. And I was like, whatever Hurley does with these dudes to get them to care that much about not like giving up an easy bucket when this game was over at the tip. How do you get there? How do you get, it's, it's not,

I don't want to frame it as like they're afraid of letting you down, but how do you get guys to do that? Because I actually don't think it's that common. Yeah. Um, you bring, you, you bring in, um, just these guys, Ryan, that, you know, like their families, that they've got enough of those kind of old school values, accountability, responsibility. But is it your intensity? Sorry to interrupt, but is there? Yeah, because it's not like if they were brutal, like if these

guys were selfish, narcissistic, you know, they're doing me a favor by coming to you kind of type of mentality, like we would look like, you know, we'd look like a clown show that you see. I'm sure you've seen some other operations that don't look like that. So, I mean, but it starts in that process of recruiting by just evaluating like who still wants to be a part of something like this in college, or aspect to it too, where like, what human beings still don't want to be part of like a super connected, you know, community, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you

know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, And then there's a tribal aspect to it too, where like what human beings still don't want to be part of like a super connected, highly efficient, high achieving group of, you know, cult. I don't want to say cult. I got trouble for that. But, you know, like who doesn't want to be part of like the absolute highest functioning group of people in your sport that are dominant

and putting on incredible performances, winning all the trophies, and then players are going on and getting drafted in a lottery or, or, or become an NBA. Like who doesn't want to be part of that? Would you prefer to be part of a locker room of selfish assholes? I, you know, like what would you, I don't know if I could curse on here. I don't know. You can. All right. But yeah, I mean, it seems like what would you rather be a part of? And I think right now that's where we've got to be careful in recruiting.

I think we have access now to a higher level of prospect. There's a lot more interested in UConn basketball because of what we're doing. But we've got to be true to what's kind of gotten us here. The types of people, uh, players on the way up players that are, uh, that have some sense of humility and want to be coached. Okay. So I think that's a great transition and probably what's going to be your least enjoyable part of the interview in that when I think about your approach,

the buy-in, the intensity and all that stuff. And then when all the Lakers rumors were happening, I went, I love this guy's approach. I love the program, but I've been around the NBA a really long time. Did you ever think, okay, if I actually do this, how much do I need to adjust considering we're talking about older men in a longer season? Yeah, absolutely. Well, when I think of, you know, when I think of, you know, my future and eventually coaching at that level,

if that's something that, you know, continues to be something I aspire to do, you know, I think about that a lot and whether, um, you know, whether that would be effective for me, whether, um, whether that makes, whether that makes sense for me, I would say, uh, I've considered, I consider that a great deal. I think incredibly well suited to coach players that are 18, 19, 20 years old. I love being part of that process. I feel like my strengths as a coach and where I could be at my best right now

is certainly it's best suited to the college game and the impact I can have and still, like you said before, Ryan, I could still create a culture and a mindset with my team, an all out effort that may be hard to replicate in the NBA, in an organization that doesn't value those types of things. In the however many day window

where the Laker story was a story, was there ever a moment where you thought to yourself, I'm actually doing this? I think, yeah, absolutely. I think I wouldn't have considered it unless I thought it was something real for me. I don't like distractions. I don't like them in my program.

We keep our distractions limited. It was a very uncomfortable situation for me. I would much prefer to just be in the gym. I'm a pretty simple guy. Even though I draw a lot of attention, because of the way I coach and the way I may interact with the fan post game, particularly on the road, if I don't like what they're saying,

I bring a lot of, the way we show up, how hard we play, just a lot of the way we go about the way we do our Basketball draws a lot of attention, but I don't really I'm not I was not comfortable Really in that whole situation when it became public it made it much more difficult for me to To process everything, but I mean I thought long and hard about it, and it just, it wasn't the right moment for me to go coach in the NBA.

All right, last thing on this, I promise, but when your offensive video broke out with JJ, right? Then everybody knows JJ and LeBron's relationship, and then, I mean, that's a whole nother element of this story. We're like, wait, what's going on here? Did JJ just convince LeBron that Danny would be the better head coach than JJ? In your information gathering process,

did you actually ever talk to LeBron? We had some, we shared some text messages and I think it's just, LeBron, I think, just wanted me to know that, that he would support me and that, you know, he paid attention to, you know, what I've accomplished in my career. Obviously we shared the court together when he was a high school player as a junior. And I was in my first year as a high school coach and he beat my ass in Delaware and slammed dunk to the beach. It was a close game, but he walked me down in the fourth quarter and got us there. I'm a lot better coach since then.

Yeah, but I think just the whole thing, some of the strengths of what we do, you're considering like bringing my offensive philosophy to the NBA. Okay, it's great. I mean, what we're doing in college is great. Can I get NBA players to move? Can I get them to move and cut the way we are getting our team to move and cut? Would my star players be willing to share the ball,

to allow others to handle it. And at times be a screener, at times be a cutter, at times be a roller, at times be a slipper. Maybe you're the first screener in a jet. A lot of those things are what you're considering as, I think what we do would be incredibly effective at the professional level, but you do wonder, can you get NBA players to actually do it?

I remember Van Pelt and I back in the day, we had Coach Cal on after like five players were drafted in the first round, and it's an unbelievable accomplishment. And he may not even done the quote with us, but Cal was always fun, he would come on, he was always good to us. And the quote, and I don't know if it was specific to our show or maybe he followed up after already saying it like, Hey, this is one of the biggest nights in the history

of Kentucky basketball. And of course, Kentucky fans are like, we'd actually rather have another title Cal. You have the titles, but what is draft night like for you? The investment in these people, the realization of dreams that only a few people ever get to complete when the first time they touch a basketball and they you know you get to turn a certain age you realize hey this isn't gonna happen for me but it's happening to your guys in your world. What's that night like for you? Incredible night. You know it's up there with the championship

nights and those championship nights are incredible moments that you get to share with the boys and the staff. And it's that feeling of love that you have for each other and that you'll have forever when you're part of the net cutting and the big championships and just everything that these guys have been a part of. But, you know, like with with with a Jordan Hawkins who or Donovan, you know, these guys that maybe like Steph's a little different. Steph came in as McDonald's. Steph came in as a top 10 player in the country. And I think he may have improved his draft stock a little bit, but I think he came into this year as a as a likely one and done.

But when you sit at the table with Jordan Hawkins, who was a top 75 player, Donovan Klingon, who was maybe a top 50 player, and now these guys go lottery or potentially first pick, and you see the emotion with the family because this wasn't some preordained thing that they feel like they were entitled to because they've always been ranked the number three player in the country. Like you'll see in the green room, which I saw last year, there'll be a uniqueness to like a Hawkins or a Klingon where like not too long ago he was just playing at Bristol High on a non-sneaker affiliated AAU team, just no one knowing that this was gonna be

how his story plays out. So it's just awesome to be part of families' trajectories and families changing in an incredible way. This was a real pleasure, man. I know how busy you are and looking forward to next week and that night for you and the program. And I don't need to wish you luck moving forward because you have this thing dialed in.

But UConn fans that grew up with it, know what it was like, appreciate it, so thanks. Yeah, I got you, I got you. I'll hold Glastonbury down too for you. All right, I got it. Yeah, let them know, let them know. I looked at real estate there, but I don't know if it's in the future.

But if you flirt with the Lakers again, I'm your guy in Manhattan Beach, all right? I got you. Later, brother. We are one week out from the NBA draft, one of my favorite times of the year, and a guy I love talking to from The Athletic. He is great on the draft.

All of his stuff is up right now at San Vecini. What's up, man? Good to see you. Ryan, it's so good to see you this time of year, man. I'm so happy that we're doing this. I mean, how do you feel about this two-day draft? That's where I'm at. Like this feels like insane to me

that we're doing this on two days. Yeah, I blame the NFL. I blame the NFL for a lot of the programming choices that we have where you're just like, hey, is there any way to get some kind of live audience number on another night? And look, I get it. It's business maximizing all of your potential income

earning possibilities, but it's just, I don't know. If there was ever a year to not have to do it, it would be this year with this class. So let's start at the top. I really want to focus on the lottery. You have a mockup. You know, I was going through it this morning. And so I've even touched on this with Bill

going back a couple of weeks ago where it felt like teams were just hinting at, and it's easy when you don't have the pickup there, but hinting at like, hey, a lot of teams have very different orders of who like one, two, three, four, or five are. I'd imagine you've heard a lot of the same thing, which again, to emphasize,

it is also very easy to say you would do something different when you have nothing to do with a pick in that range. Yes, that is accurate. Look, so the mock you probably looked at, I would imagine is from like early June, right? So I just literally an hour before we started recording this, like updated and like finalized a mock and sent it off. Right. So we'll kind of talk through this live. So I don't know about you, but like the name that I continue to get like most connected with Atlanta is Donovan Klingon. Like, I don't know if you're getting that as well. I'm not saying that that's exactly what happens.

I'm not even saying Donovan Klingon goes number one, but the name I get most connected with Atlanta right now seems to be Donovan at this point. Okay. Klingon has been somebody I would say weeks leading up to this where it's like, hey, this team would like Klingon. This team would like to move up. This team would like, and then it was kind of getting like, I don't know how high you're going to have to go up for him. And then you have to have the internal debate of like, well, is Klingon worth the number one pick this year?

Like as I'm watching SAR and Risa Shea, I'm just like, okay, well in this year, these guys are part of that conversation, uh, depending on how you feel about it. So I know you've done, I think you had a note, you do different tiers for just ranking the prospects historically. What was different about this year at the top of the class? Sure. So I always rank out tiers in terms of not by year. Like I don't have Alex Saar, who is my number one player as a tier

one player this year, right? Um, I don't have any tier one or tier two players in this class. Uh, that is very abnormal for me. I am not stingy with those grades. Like over the last four years, I think I've had 16 of those guys in the way that I consider, you know, these tiers are tier one, like very high degree of likelihood. This person is an all NBA player tier two, like very high degree of likelihood, this person is an all NBA player tier two, like very high degree of likelihood. This person is an all star. And then like tier

three is, okay, there's some all star upside here. Like I can see a world where Donovan Klingon makes a Jared Alani all star game. Right. But I can't, you know, I can't sit here and tell you that I think Donovan Klingon is going to be an all star either. You know what I mean? Like I think he's going to be a good starting center in the NBA that plays elite level drop coverage and screens at an elite level and does all of those things well, right? Like I don't think he's going to average 20 points a game. So I look at this class and I think that it is entirely an eye of the beholder draft.

And it's almost not dependent on how you evaluate player. It's almost more dependent upon how you see the league like moving forward and how you see like the shape of the league. Like, for instance, we just watched Boston put Jason Tatum on Daniel Gafford and Derek Lively for minutes on end, right? Well, like would Boston just be able to do that with Donovan Klingon or would Klingon be able to like kind of manhandle him in the post potentially? I don't know. Like teams have different opinions on that, but ultimately where you're going to fall on Donovan Klingon,

I think is going to be dependent more on like what your philosophy of like modern basketball is. And if you think that, you know, you need a five out look to be able to be successful in the NBA and where you fall on Alex R is how much potential you think he has to actually be a real five out center as opposed to a theoretical one down the road. Yeah. The Klingon conversation, we all saw all the great parts of it, whether it's the job coverage that you mentioned,

the help defense where he just swallows it up, Illinois trying to attack him, thinking they were gonna expose him a bit or get him into foul trouble. You're like, nope, this isn't gonna work. But then I think all of us that love basketball love how UConn plays out every second of every shot clock Not that they're running the clock down, but that when the first thing is cut off, they'll keep running their offense and

Klingon became a part of that. Like I liked it Hurley. I think it's a very simple approach to basketball It's like let everybody touch the basketball because then everyone's gonna be more engaged Throughout the entire game and I think Klingon had some moments where you go, okay, you know, you may be able to throw it down at him and then he'll make some sort of read, but it's kind of like the ED conversation. You can love him in the post, but who's actually doing that? So when you look at Klingon's offense, you're never going to be looking at him as like a primary option unless you get some kind of small mismatch that you were alluding to there with Tatum. And then the shooting history, you know, I think we all want all these big guys to be able to space the floor.

Uh, it's a bit like the football evaluation where you'd hear some coaches say, don't tell me all the things he can't do. Tell me the things that he can do and the things that Klingon can do are really good, but I think we get greedy with bigs now where you're like, oh, he doesn't make his free throws. The three points shooting isn't a threat whatsoever. So what am I drafting here? Am I drafting a help side drop coverage center number one overall, where if

you're watching SAR, you could probably, if you were in a good mood that day, talk yourself into what the best version of his, of him is offensively knowing that the shot part of it, the him is offensively knowing that the shot part of it to pull up the spot up stuff, um, is far more developed than anything because Klingon doesn't even have to do any of those things. So it's just two different players. Yeah. Like, like Donovan Klingon is a better basketball player right now than Alex are by like a fairly real margin. I think like I, you know,

I watched Alex here in Australia for, you know, I watched Alex here in Australia for, you know, all season this year. Donovan Klingon would like dominate this league in a real way. Alex Saar came off the bench in this league. It was effective when he came off the bench, but he came off the bench in this league. Now it's exactly what you're saying in terms of Alex Saar. And again, this is where we get into like

that modern basketball discussion. Like Alex Saar, for the most part this year was like a pick and pop big and like a pick and short roll big. Like he slipped all of his screens. Like I don't think he's a particularly good screener yet, right? He's more of a perimeter player, but man, like when you watch the flashes of him putting the ball on the deck and you watch him shoot the basketball. Yeah. He shot like 29%, but he clearly has like pretty real touch and like the ball comes out of his hand softly. That's what makes it all theoretical with Alex R. But if you think about basketball, kind of the way that I think about

basketball now, especially in light of the Celtics winning the NBA title, I think that every team in the NBA from now on, like to win a title is going to have some sort of five outlook. It doesn't have to be necessarily your bread and butter necessarily, but I think that they have to at least have it as a counter to what defenses are going to present because otherwise it's just going to be too hard to score. I think given how good coaches are now at scheming against that. So when I look at Alex R I just see him as the big in this class that has a chance to actually be like a dribble pass shoot big who covers an

immense amount of space on the court and help side coverage who, you know, is an elite level shot blocker. Like I just think he kind of, he brings more in like a modern basketball sense to me, even if he's worse at basketball than Donovan Klingon does, and that's where the projection side of it comes in. Yeah. He had to play against the Hawks. There was a block shot, so it kind of leads to like a turnover and he gathers the ball at like the opposite free throw line and he brings it up.

He crosses over a defender in transition. I'm not saying it was like Iverson, but for somebody his size to do that. But then he gets into the paint. He kind of hits this and one floater. And when I watch him and granted James Wiseman is going to haunt me for the rest of my life. But when Wiseman didn't think about what he was doing and his natural athleticism took over in the very limited amount of games that we had from him.

You could see the special qualities of projecting of what he could be. But once Wiseman had to think, you could see it was like a bad internet connection of just slowly going like, oh, and then you're like, hey man, whatever you were contemplating, now everything's over and now you're kind of stuck. Even though you have this amazing frame and athleticism and this really soft

touch, like I could see with Wiseman, okay, the bust version of him is this, but the high side version of all these things, even with Saur who for his size, it looks like this seven foot wing. And this is again being greedy. The flashiness is really cool, but you could tell it's still just not fluid. Like this is not some fluid seven footer who you're like, oh, I'm going to be able to do all these incredible things with them. I think the pick and pop part of it is probably the most bankable thing right now.

Yeah. Like the level to which Chet Holmgren is ahead of him and like was ahead of him at Gonzaga is like staggering. Like I don't even think it's remotely close. Like Chet is, Chet was leaps and bounds ahead as a shooter. I thought he was better as a driver and as a ball handler. He played with better bend I felt like. With Alex, you know, there are moments where like,

he'll try and like jab step like crossover in the mid range and get creative and like, I kind of love seeing the creativity with him, but it's just like not, like you said, it's not fluid yet, it's not there. He got called for like three or four travels doing the same move this year and just failing on some level. So I agree, I think that another thing

that makes it difficult with him is watching you know, watching him on a less condensed court or a more condensed court, I'm sorry, than like some of the G league guys. Like we actually got like a really cool opportunity to see him play the G league Ignite earlier this year. And, you know, we can talk about like what it actually meant being a better prospect than Ron Holland and Matas Bozelis. But he was very clearly the best player on the court in those games.

And having that extra space, having that like little extra driving lane, we actually saw him like short roll to pass a little bit more in those two games that I think I saw him do all year in Perth. So these guys that are so big and so skilled, like I do think that the space matters, but you really need him to fill out physically to be able to play the five too. He really is just truly like an eye of the beholder player. And like, if you want to buy into development, like I do, I buy into him and I kind of buy into the person. Like he's like a super mature kid, like all the Intel like checks out at a really high level,

but it's a hard conversation. If you're a team like Atlanta who thinks, Hey, we were just the 10th overall pick and we got lucky and jumped up to number one, we might not be that far away. Maybe let's just go get the guy that's good. You know what I mean? Yeah. It feels like if he goes one, I'll sit there and go like, all right, yeah. Like I totally get it.

And you know, teams will tell you that they may have a guy graded a little bit higher, but it's so hard to add that elite level talent. Like what if this guy actually works out? Or like some GMs know they're making the mistake while they're making the mistake, but the rationale is just, you know, okay, this guy actually works out? Or like, some GMs know they're making the mistake while they're making the mistake, but the rationale is just, you know,

okay, this is somebody that least though, if it were to work out, like we know what the high side of him is, and ultimately getting back to that word of upside. Where's the rest of- Let me, yeah, be clear on Atlanta too. Like they're having like Zach Rissachet in for a workout this week, right?

Like this could all, all of this could change. Like they might end up just like taking research and things are fine. But, you know, again, like people around the league like seem to think they like going in, in some way, and you know, maybe they'll try and trade down. Maybe they'll try and just take them at one, but, you know, I don't, I don't know what they're going to do yet. That's what makes this fun. Okay.

Let's talk research then. Okay. So what are your thoughts? Cause I'm curious. I'm always very curious to see what people think the first time they watch him. Because I'll give you mine real quick. I watched him last year at hoop summit and thought he was like terrible, like point blank, I thought he was really bad, but he couldn't shoot then.

And he shot this like weird, like a flat trajectory shot and look terrible. But then this year he comes out and shoots 45% for the first like four months of the year and then shoots 22% from three for the next three months. And then has this like unbelievable stretch to finish the season. Like I'm, I'm curious, like I really want to know what you think of him. He doesn't suck at all. I think that would be. Yeah.

Missing the mark on him. Um, he doesn't. I agree. No. And I liked the shot that I saw in the Euro stuff. Um, the way he's like ready to go off of the catch. He does a really good job, like upfake and resetting himself. Now, some guys, like I've mentioned this with Drew Holiday, like if Drew Holiday gets an open catch in the corner,

he actually wants to get a dribble down to be able to reset himself. And sometimes I actually think it's a harder shot for him, but Zach is so big, it's not the same challenge on the reset after the upfake. And so when I'm watching him, I think a lot of these guys like, I'll go, okay, let's watch him as if he's bad and let's watch him as if he's good. Like I'll try to do that with different players. If you think he's bad, you'll be like, okay, so this guy's got all this size and somebody like this that's potentially in the conversation for the number one pick, like I got to see more ball creation and he's a spot up guy this past season

on 40% of his possessions and it's a lot of catch and shoot. So like, so what am I drafting? Am I drafting a guy who's just anchored to the corner and he hits enough threes that he's providing spacing, but like, can I take somebody like that number one? But I think when I watch him, when I'm like, okay, he is good because he is really athletic. He's obviously, maybe I shouldn't say really athletic, because it's not, whenever I think like really athletic, I always think of like a Westbrook,

and I'm not trying to sell you on that, but he moves really well for his size. I think he goes up into traffic really well for rebounds, and then some shot contests that show like an aggression with him that maybe people wouldn't see right away, because there's not much definition in his body. He obviously needs to get stronger in all those different things. The problem that I have is like there's some glimpses at times of him wanting to do something with the ball, but for the most part, like he doesn't seem like he's doing much on-ball creation at all. And then there's stuff in transition where it looks like

he has the physical advantage as somebody's trying to meet him at the rim and then he doesn't finish a lot. So I was like, what the fuck is going on with that? Like you're huge, like get up there and finish this on him. So like a lot of these guys, there's some things I really like, I do like the shooting despite the up and down nature of it because I just think he's, he's a very, I think he's a very confident shooter it because I just think he's he he's a very

I think he's a very confident shooter I don't think he's necessarily taking awful shots by the way too like I think with the young players their shot selection stuff I'm like what are you doing I always think of Jayden Hardy in the G League where it was some of the worst shot selection I've seen of anyone I've ever don't think about that anymore Ryan maybe don't. I'll tell you what though. It actually translates in a good way in the NBA because when he checks into a game, my man is not afraid. So yeah, that's my, uh, that's my Zach breakdown. Your thoughts. Yeah, I don't think any of that's wrong, but like what you just described to me,

and look, I say this is somebody like I have Rissa Shea in the top five and I have them in this top group of players. But like what you just described to me is like the Nick Batume that we saw this year for the 70, 76ers who's like 39 years old. Right. He moves better. I think than Batume does. Would you agree? Would you give me that? Yeah, he does. Like, and, but he doesn't move like Batume did when he was younger either. You know what I mean? Like Nick was a freak athlete who was like in a dunk contest and like could really go and like doesn't pass like Nick does there did either like in Charlotte and places like that. So, man, I go so back and

forth with them. Like there are times where I think he is such an awesome like third or fourth player to have out there just because of that shooting. I think he's really sharp in terms of help side defense too. Like I think that you kind of look at the way he takes up space on that weak side plays one on two really well. Like those are very real NBA style situations where he'll be tasked with responsibilities like that and be successful at them. But man, like it would, I would just feel bad drafting a player where like, I don't feel like there's a lot of on-ball upside or like a lot of on-ball juice.

Cause like, I think with you- The on-ball part of it is the thing that gets in the way of like being excited about him. I completely agree. So go keep going. Yeah. Like with him, like it's just like Franz Wagner was so far ahead of him in terms of like flexibility and like bend out of ball screens at Michigan. Right. Like, and like, I guess the, like Rissa Shay doesn't run a lot of ball screens, but like even in transition, right.

You'll see him like just get out of control in like a weird way too to where I don't know. Like I think he's going to be a good NBA player. Like I think he's definitely going to be a, you know, a guy that you could have out there as your fourth or fifth option. Who's going to knock down corner threes, but I just like wouldn't love taking that guy. It like two or one or like even three really. Yeah, I'd love him at nine.

Whenever I watch him, I'm like, man, if he was going ninth, I'd be like, hey, nice, nice work here. But when you look at some of the pick and roll ball handling stuff, they barely did any of that with him. I think it's only 4% of his possessions. The numbers clearly aren't gonna be very good because he wasn't really comfortable because they never really let him do it.

But he's not a jerk of a player. Like he's very good with like knowing when he's supposed to be spacing and then there would be time stretches where I'm like, is he doing anything? And then he actually showed some good instincts of like what they were doing in their half court sets of getting involved.

And I love young players like setting a back screen that's not in the play to be like, hey, you know, this guy's not paying attention. So there was some awareness stuff with him that I went, okay, these are all like really good signs, but I think we're on the same page here. So let me ask you this, because if Bozellas could shoot threes

with his on ball stuff that is the opposite, like when you get the right stretch of a zealous, it's really impressive, but he hasn't had any history of hitting shots. Would you think he would go one if he was like 36% from three? I think he probably would, but like, I don't love the shot. And I'm like a little bit lower on the on ball stuff

than other people. Like I get it. Like if you think there's like on ball juice there, like we've seen it in transition particularly. And one of my personal like flaws as an evaluator, right? Like I'm cognizant enough to like understand it on some level is that I struggle at times with these like bigger dudes who tend not to have a lot of space to create, but like have shown latent ball handling ability in the past. Like I struggled with like Scotty Barnes, right? Scotty was like weird and stiff and likes that is like kind of weird and stiff

bizarrely, but it works on some level because he's so big and he covers so much ground so quickly, right? He was also like incredibly advanced of like, it didn't make any sense. Cause it was funny. we were talking about it and he popped it in my head for a different reason, but his awareness of what they were supposed to be doing as the freshmen, I went, oh my God. So yeah, back to your point though.

Well, and like Scotty as well was like this amazing passer, kind of like what you're saying here, like he could run point guard for them. Like, I don't think Modus can really do any of that. Like I don't, I've never really seen modest as like a passer or a playmaker, even at lower levels. Uh, it's been a lot of like, I'm getting up and down in transition. I'm going to try and dunk on people's faces.

Like I'm going to have these creative finishing packages whenever I have some space to go and that stuff like can translate once you get wider driving lanes. But look, this Ignite team was like a catastrophe and we can just like admit it and call it out for what it was. But they did play on like an NBA space court, even if they were like the worst shooting team in that league this year. So I go back and forth on modest. I do like, I ended up with them outside of the top 10. Cause like, I just don't know like what it exactly is, but like, I think there are like floor outcomes for him.

They're pretty rough. Uh, at the end of the day. Yeah. Uh, the numbers would back you up because the ISO stuff is good. The pick and roll ball handler stuff isn't good. But when I look at some of these big guys where I go, what are you doing on those drives? With Modest, there's no hesitation. The aggressiveness from him is something

that I really appreciated, and I felt like he was just entirely engaged the entire time, where some of these other guys are still overwhelmed by everything and float a little bit too much. So I know teams have basically written them off because of the shooting. And, and I'm not even talking about the teams that are drafting, but like when they're ranking them, I think more people agree with you on the downside of it, but I can't help.

It's like, again, if you're projecting, you're going to holy shit, can this guy handle at six 10 and he's like a real athlete. But then it'll have a tendency to where a lot of these younger players too. I'll be like, do you even have any idea what you're doing on your drive, or are you just kind of doing it because you have the ball right now? And he'll get a little like, derkish,

where he'll back you down and fall in love with this kind of like one foot turnaround stuff, and it's like, hey, that's a really difficult shot. You may not wanna keep going to that unless it's going down, but there's no hesitate right? Yeah, right, but they're with him like the fluidity stuff that we're talking about. He's fluid. There's no hesitation He's really aggressive. He legit can handle for that size in comparison to some of these other guys, but the shooting thing Definitely definitely hurts the stock. All right, so who else?

To your point on modest to like I'll say like the Intel super positive like everything I've gotten on Modest is like, work ethic is incredible. Like, you know, he looks skinny right now, but like really has like tried to embrace getting in the gym, right? And like, he looked so much bigger at the combine comparatively to what he looked like

even during the G League season. So to your point, like I think that there is real reason to believe in that as a real potential growth outcome. People buy him as a human. Well, that's great to know that as a human, because you never know, right? Yeah, it's not always there. There's so few guys though that you'll hear about

and be like, disaster. You just don't hear it as much as you used to. So I don't know if these younger guys, maybe we should give them all a little bit more credit. Because I feel like when I first started doing this, I'd be like, did you hear about this guy or like what's going on with this or whatever? And there's always I remember you got all the shit for New Orleans Noel, right? Yeah, that was fun. No, it wasn't. It ended up on the front page USA Today.

And then the funny thing is, is then I think his agent said something like, oh, he just believed another agent and he got worked. I was like, well, that's not what happened. But sometimes in fairness to Neuralyns, it was more about what was around him that people were freaked out by. And look, there's another player

that was recently drafted really high. I heard the exact same thing and has not been an issue. And this player is awesome. So, but I'm not going to name him. I did a big Reed Shepherd thing with Bill on Sunday because the shooting numbers, I don't think it's even close to like hyperbole to say he's one of the best shooters I've ever seen

coming into the draft. Every single number you'd go, wait, what is he on catch shoot? Wait, what is he on unguarded? Wait, guarded? He's at like 99th percentile? Like, are you, every single number is like the best number you could possibly have. But he's six, one and a half.

And I, as we're going through all these guys, I've like, man, I would be so scared to be Atlanta because you're likely just going to get it wrong. And then of course, one of these guys that we don't like is going to end up being the best player of this draft and he's going to go eighth and everybody's going to say, you guys didn't see it and all that stuff because that's just the way the draft is. But I just can't fathom even with the questions that we have about other people and Shepard translating the gap of like, is he really going to be your point guard or is but I just can't fathom even with the questions that we have about other people in Shepherd translating the gap of like, is he really going to be your point guard

or is he going to be coming off the bench knocking down some shots to give you some spacing? Yeah. Yeah, I have read it too in this class. I love them, like I'm in. I feel like bad about it. Let's be clear, like Reed would not be a top five guy like last year at all. But like I, on some level, it's just like, this guy's really fucking good at basketball, right? Like you just watch him play and it's just like, oh,

holy shit. He's like the best transition passer in the class. Oh, well he's like the best shooter. You know, I've evaluated in, you know, I don't know, five years at least. Right. He is like capable of taking ball screens. He has like a real floater game. I, you know, he's unbelievable. Like the thing that we haven't seen him do a lot of is like coming off of screens and shooting right. Cause Kentucky did that with like Antonio Reeves all year really. And that was really the only guy that they had like run those actions. But I don't know. I feel pretty good about him coming off screens, probably given the shot, right? So there's just like a lot of ways that his game translates to the NBA. And when you can shoot from 32 feet away from the rim,

I almost think that like, Iris Halliburton here is like somewhat instructive. It just opens up the floor in so many ways for you to wear. Like you don't need this unbelievable handle where you're, you know, breaking down guys with like six crossovers strung together back to back to back. Right. You just have to be able to change pace and be able to play off of a live dribble. And I think he can do that to a real level. The defense is fascinating. Like his defensive tape is some of

the most complicated defensive tape I've ever had to evaluate because he'll make these unbelievable anticipatory defensive plays where he'll come from the weak side and figure out that the ball is going to the lob man out of ball screens before the lob man, like even starts his role. It feels like, and he'll just be there. But then like any blocks 0.7 shots per game as a guy that's six foot one, right? His closeouts are awesome. Like he gets to spots way quicker than what I think people like understand. But then kind of goes like space cadet, eat at times off the ball. And then like on the ball, obviously there are real concerns. And he gave up like

a ton of straight line drives this year. And like, like, do you just buy the playmaking and the instincts on some level? I think he's just like a special basketball mind on top of being a special shooter. And I just like always kind of bet on those guys figuring it out. Like it's almost like he's like a small Derek White to me kind of like, but like a better shooter, but like the size off puts it. I don't know. Like I think he's going to be that level player. I guess though is like probably not an all star, but like somebody that's just really good and really useful to a team winning basketball games. The transition passing was the thing that like made me look at him in an entirely different

level because that will always show me like with a basketball player where you go, okay, just because you have the ball and you're probably the best option crossing half court, like you want to get. That's like a team thing for me. It's really, really important when I see that, especially with a young player that as soon as he crosses half core, if he gets that high screen and the lower defender isn't there to meet him to contest or whatever, it's a layup for him. Like watching teams lose him as he repositions himself as well, which is another thing I loved about him, where it's kind of that warrior's deal of like,

Hey, just move a little bit around the perimeter as all this chaos is happening in the pain around the rim. Because if the ball comes loose or somebody's cut off, if you're just moving a little left to right, you're just gonna get a wide open shot. And then you can see the opposing teams in the SEC being like, I can't believe I lost track of them again. Because Dillingham would run so much

of what they were doing on offense too. And then there's the times where I'm like, can you really draft a guy who's like, I can't see him right now. Like he's lost in the trees because he is that small, but he is a really good athlete, um, and the high side of it is if you could really trust him to kind of run your offense, but I think there's some passing stuff in there, even though he can get a little turnover, happy.

Uh, I don't know if that's not seeing it. I don't know if that size. Sometimes I think it's just his risk where he'll go, I don't know if that's not seeing it. I don't know if that's size. Sometimes I think it's just his risk where he'll go. I don't care. Like, let me see if this will work. Which sometimes I'd rather see that. I don't want to see it all the time. I'd like you to kind of outgrow it a little bit

with a younger player that he's even thinking about some of those passes. Like at this stage, I can go, all right, you know what? Like that's better than never ever seeing any of this stuff or never even wanting to do it. But you have them too. God, this draft is so Oh, look, I don't feel again, like I don't feel great about having him at two. Like I'm somebody that like, I really struggle with guys that are that small.

Like I was like losing my mind when Peyton Pritchard was on the court for the Celtics. I was like, okay, he's just like way too small. Like he's just getting attacked every time by Lucas. Yeah. Yeah. So like, look, Reed is not much bigger than Peyton Pritchard, but he's way better, obviously. But like, I just, I don't know. It's this draft, man. Like, like I have Devin Carter at seven. Devin Carter's like 22, man. Okay. You said you weren't good. Who was it? A Bezelis? Those types of players you said you weren't good with.

I already know that Devin Carter, like I'm already ready to be wrong about this. And I know he's not as high as some of these other guys that are talking about. Well, you just had him seven. Give us your Devin Carter sales job. So like the way that I would explain it is he's the guy, do you remember hearing last year about like Jaime Hawkins? He just like going to workouts and just like kill people. Like every single like workout he went in, he was the best player on the court.

It's like that except like times two this year with Devin Carter. He is just like completely like obliterated every workout I've been told. I've been told by like multiple teams that he went in there and was like the best workout they've seen since they've like been in place at that job, basically. So he is six foot two with like a six foot nine wingspan. So like not super big, but super strong. And I think the guys that tend to overplay that height issue tend to be the ones that are like physically strong, like think like Fred Van Vliet, Chris Paul, guys that are like physical and capable of like dealing with contact, uh, has the length to

be able to make up for it. He's also not just like the most explosive athlete in this class. He's like functional in the way he uses it on the court. He is exceptionally quick with his first step as a ball handler. He is exceptionally quick with like his first slide defensively. He blocked like a shot per game this year, mostly on closeouts because he's a 42 inch vertical leap and a nine, you're a specific six, nine state or six, nine wingspan, you know, he is so unbelievably vertical at the basket as a dunker where I think he had like 35 dunks this year.

It's six foot two with a bunch of those being like half court dunks where he's just like rising up and going. The question that people have is the jumper. I'll just be honest with you. Like I've like met the kid. I've watched him work out the job. He's going to figure met the kid. I've watched him work out the John. He's going to figure out the jumper like that. That kid's like not going to stop working until he figures out the jumper.

And we saw it this year. He made 39% or whatever he did on seven three-point attempts per game. So I get the concern. Oh, by the way, like half of those three-point attempts for from 25 feet or beyond. So like already from NBA range and he made them at 37%. So he has the range already to be able to account for the NBA line, to be able to make up for the space that he's going to give up and has the slower release on the jumper. So like it might take him a second, but I just think he's, I think the world of his competitiveness, I think he's an elite level defender. I think he is a guy that will score points in the NBA and be able to pass and play make.

I thought his issue this year was like he overdrove and you know, kind of got in trouble a little bit because they relied upon him for so much. But yeah, like they just needed him to do everything. It felt like, and man, when I watch him, I think he's, I just think he is a guy that's going to help a lot of teams win basketball games at the end of the day. So just so people that are listening, maybe going like, who are you talking about? Um, played at Providence, led the big East in scoring, was the biggest player of the year. And as Sam mentions, just a shade over six to he was third in rebounding in

the league this year at nine boards a game, he started South Carolina. Uh, he was kind of between 27, 30% from three, those first few seasons. And then this year, as you point out 38% is dad's Anthony Carter played in the league for over a decade. So he's not a point card, but he was tasked with kind of figuring everything out for Providence. And you said something too, that I went ahead and I need to look up with the final numbers, watching his tape, the number of times he's given the ball back

at the end of the shot clock to be like, please just save us. Like, I think the shooting numbers are way better with better players because I, I can't, he may have led the Big East with grenades and how many shots he had to take where you're like, I can't I can't believe you guys just gave me back the basketball. He also has he's not Lowry the point guard, but he already has all the Lowry bullshit down not as egregious as Lowry who again should be banned from the league, but he he does things I'm like, okay, well, no kidding.

Like your dad played in the league this whole time. So whether it's the contest at three where he'll get you, he'll get you deep, he'll up fake you. Like I have respect for upfaking contact around the rim because that's part of the defense. But there's all these other little tricks that this dude has that you go, what is this guy, like 32?

But because he's six, I'm like, okay, well maybe he's not gonna rebound that that way, but the gems keys rebounding translated, um, but again, he's bigger, but not like dramatically bigger, but you get the point is, I don't know if he's functionally bigger, like, yeah, with the wingspan part of it, you're probably right. Yeah. And again, Devin Clark, I think, or not Devin Clark. Good God.

Uh, Devin Carter is the best athlete in the draft class. Like I think point blank. If you look at any of the explosiveness scores at the combine, if you watch like the tape, like he's just a sick, sick athlete. And I think I agree with you. Like, I don't know if he's going to be like a nine rebound per game guy. I don't think he's going to be like Josh Hart is a rebounder, but man, like I think he might be like one of the three or four best rebounding guards in the league.

Yeah, but Jamsky is almost two inches taller, but his wingspan is four inches shorter. Yeah. But I'm like, okay, so you've taken Devin Carter, you know, seventh or eighth, and it's going to take, I think it's going to take a while because he, sometimes he doesn't even look like he's as athletic as he tested. So then when I went back, watched, like I watched him. And then I went back and looked at the testing stuff, like even to the Reed Shepherd point, like I think Reed was right

there among the leaders in vert, but Devin technically had the highest max vert of anybody, right? At the combine. Yeah. I have some, I don't want to accuse anybody of anything. Anytime that I look at the vert number, I look at the standing reach number and see if it is commensurate with everybody else

who is around that person's size. That's how I'll phrase that. Reed Shepherd, seven foot nine standing reach when he's the same size as Jared McCain basically gave me some questions maybe. I don't know if these are unfair. I'm just asking questions. Like this is the ringer.

This is the Bill Simmons Network. I'm allowed to go conspiracy bill here for a minute, right? It's encouraged. It's encouraged. All right. Let's try to get some of these other guys cause we still haven't haven't hit on everybody. Uh, Dalton connect, another guy who is a real athlete tested really well on all that stuff.

We know the story of how, how much he grew from high school, Juko on and on and on. Uh, I know he's older, which is going to scare some teams away. That should not scare you this year. Should not scare you this year. I think he's, he which is going to scare some teams away. That should not scare you this year. Should not scare you this year. I think he's, he's a pretty easy plug and play guy, uh, right away. Yeah. Awesome shooter. Like he's going to be able to step in and knock down shots immediately.

The question is, if you're taking him in the top 10, like what is the upside? Right. I think that the way to like access his upside is to put him in a scheme where. You're running all sorts of movement. You're going to run them off of like a bunch of floppy sets. You're going to run them off of like flares and you're going to get him into the action early, right? To be able to kind of move him around like a chest piece. Like if I was like kind of dreaming, if Miami could like find a way

to move up to, you know, eight, 10, wherever Dalton's going to go. And just like somehow get him as an upgraded athlete of like Duncan Robinson. That'd be like pretty sick to me in that offense. But, you know, as long as, you know, there's no way he's like a no fail guy because of the shooting, like he's just going to knock down shots and he's confident. The defense is a concern. He's not a great defender, but has athletic tools to maybe be able to overcome it at some point. Uh, but plug and play kind of like you said,

like I think he's going to be able to go in and knock down shots, which is incredibly important in today's NBA. Where are you on castle? I would be comfortable taking the bet maybe is the way to put it. Like I have him in that top tier of players. I do go like back and forth on is he three is he four is he five, right? I Think where I'm at is I would just be comfortable making the bet and seeing if it works I think if he shoots he has a chance to be potentially the best player in this class

Because he's a great defender. He's like a very versatile defender You can give him a ton of different assignments. Like he chased Baylor Shireman off of screens, you know, in multiple games this year and dealt with Mark Sears at the point of attack defensively in the final four, right? Like you can put him on anybody like one through four and he's going to do a good job. I don't think he's, you know, all defense guy, but he's going to do a good job at least showed real ball screen upside, you know, in high school, uh, showed some upside as a passer this year at Connecticut, you know, three assists

versus like 1.8 turnovers, something like that. The key really is like, do you think he will ever have shooting gravity? And, you know, I think it just depends on how you evaluate the shot and, you know, I think he has touched. It's just, I think mechanically it's a little bit messy right now. So I feel great if I had a great shooting coach, you know, I would be a little bit more questionable maybe if I didn't. Yeah.

I wouldn't say it's like mechanically fluid or anything. I think he, he's thinking about it a little bit. Um, and that's kind of a perfect transition in a Ron Holland who I like. At Ignite, but I always love the aggressive guys. When you want to talk about like different drivers of, okay, like here's a perfect example. When I watched Cody Williams at Colorado, I'm like, okay, you've got this size, you've got a little bit of this handle. And I get it.

Like you're probably gonna go in the lottery, but you don't really know what you're doing on a lot of these drives. You seem to be in love with this like catch on the side, slow back down, and then you take like a 17 foot turnaround and the other team should be like, awesome. Like, thank you for doing that. And then when you go to the Cody Williams tape to the Ron Holland tape, you're

like, okay, I know Holland can't shoot. And I know that there's turnovers. And I mean, look, some of the metrics alone, like Bezelis, when you start looking at some of the metrics for like, what happened to those guys at ignite, like, like there's some horrifying numbers baked into all this stuff. And I know Holland definitely has ones that'll scare you, but it's a bit like Matheran. You know, I even felt this way with Whitmore in the past

where I'd watch Cam and I'd go, is he just gonna drive by everybody every single time? And like, I guess he is. And some of that's actually translated in the NBA. Matheran will not be denied. Matheran will get to the rim and it's up to you to like just watch because he's not going to get cut off. And Holland has some of that. I'm not comparing him directly to those guys And it's up to you to like just watch because he's not going to get cut off.

And Holland has some of that. I'm not comparing him directly to those guys because some of the on ball stuff, but I just, I really like, I love and he's ready to go. Like when he steps on the court for somebody that young going through the ignite process, you know, decommitting from Texas after beardard, there's something that stands out in comparison to some of the other lottery guys, because I'm like, this guy's ready for a fight, and I'm always going to like those guys, because at least I know they care. Yeah, I think that's a great way to put it. He's super competitive, right?

And I really appreciate that. That's why I still have him in the top 10. I really respect the fact that he, I know he's going to go a hundred percent every single game. I know what he's going to bring me every single night and that's valuable. Oh boy. Uh, so you mentioned like him Whitmore and Ben Mather and like both those guys were, you know, 38 to 40% three point shooters. Right.

I just don't buy the shot with Ron. It all is my issue. Like I've seen it in person. I've seen it, you know, every three he's taken this year probably. And it's just inconsistent. And I don't love like the way like he gets into the shot. I think it's just like a total rewrite in terms of like how he's going to have to fix his mechanics. Once he gets to the league,

the decision-making tree seems like kind of off, right? But you could say that about a lot of young guys, like with, that's one with like Whitmore where it was like so clear where like he just didn't have that, you know, vision looking out. It was all, I'm going to try and put guys in the basket. Once he had the ball, the ball was came with more. A hundred percent. So that's, I think like fixable. I hope I think that as a guy gets older, you know, Jalen Brown's a great example of this, right? Like Jalen Brown, like never looked

outward once he started driving, but figured it out as he got older. The thing that disappointed me most about Ron Holland this year. And again, I say this as somebody like I'm like shitting on him and, you know, like talking about like every part of his game that I don't like, right. Uh, I really thought he struggled on defense this year was my issue. Like was not nearly as good of a scrambled defender is what you would hope for. I thought he closed out super high. I thought his technique was like terrible.

Uh, and like you would see moments where he's great on the ball, like just for most, like if he gets a matchup, like he's going to be able to like put that guy in a real issue because he's six, seven with a six, 11 wingspan and plays hard and is disruptive and is like super strong through his core. But again, like it was the processing again, like off the ball, it was just like, man, I just want, I want you to be better because I love watching you play. But then I look at the way that the league is going. Like I want these guys that like think through it quicker and react better and can shoot. Like it's, he goes against like everything I want in

the modern NBA right now almost, but I just respect the shit out of how hard he plays and I can't get past that all. Both. Uh, yeah, look, that's, that's all fair. Um, cause when I, when I watch some of the best defensive stuff, it's his aggressiveness, right? Yeah. And the problem is is that same aggressiveness leads to like, what are you doing out here by you going into the passing lane or like, you know, across

half court, the other team wants to swing it to the other side. And like, when, when you get that play, when you pick that one off and then it leads out to the break and you throw down this great dunk and all this stuff, it like, it looks really, really good. But there's just the other times you're like, why are you trying to do this right now? Because you're compromising everything else that we're doing. I guess there was just one play with him

where there's two big guys on the other team, right at the rim, the shot goes up, the ball's kind of loose, and they're both kind of expecting, oh, one of us is going to get this. And Holland just comes in from the baseline, grabs the ball right away from him and fucking finishes. And nobody even knew the other two guys weren't even aware of what had just happened

because Holland had decided like this. So you're at least with me on the Holland, Cody Williams thing, because I've seen it reversed. I have Cody ahead of Ron, but maybe you're where I saw it reversed. No, like I've gone w o y oed on Cody the whole year. Like it was so funny. Like I was just finalizing rankings today really. And I was just like, well, you know, I guess I'm moving Cody up again. I guess like it was just like ended up there. Like Cody like slid up the board to six.

And I was like, well, do I really believe this? I don't know, but I know that like he is a worker. I know that he is somebody who's like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I really believe this? I don't know. But I know that like, he is a worker. I know that he is somebody that I think he thinks the game at a high level. Like I do. I know that you're saying like you hated the way that he would like back down and like end up driving and like posting these dudes and taking these like bullshit, like 17 footers, right?

But I thought that he actually put like real pressure on the rim in a college setting that was like very, very difficult to do so, even though Colorado had like a very well spaced court. Like it's just always difficult to put pressure on the rim. If you're six foot six with seven foot one wing span in college basketball, you just naturally take up more space on the court than what these other guys do. And it's harder to drive. So I like that he put pressure on the rim. I thought that from like basically mid January

onward after he, I think he broke his nose and then had the ankle stuff happen. I thought we just like, didn't see the best of them. Basically. Like if you go and you watch the tournament games, like compared to the games that he played in December, November, right? He just looked compromised to me at the end of the day. Like he just didn't look like the same guy in terms of first step and in terms of, uh, you know, being able to like drive off of that ankle in any way. So maybe I'm just giving him too much credit, honestly.

Like maybe I'm like giving him credit, you know, in the face of, well, I know we didn't see the best of him because he has, he has an excuse for why we didn't see the best of him. Whereas like some of these other guys, like they don't have the excuse necessarily. Maybe that's unfair, but, you know, I've liked the passing going back to when he was younger.

I think that defensively, like he showed, you know, some signs signs of being able to play within a scheme this year. But yeah, he was one that just kept sliding up the board. I don't have a good excuse for it. I can just tell you that. Yeah, I need to go back and watch more of him because the second half of the season, I think to your point, there's just, I think there's guys that get the ball, they have the resume and they just go, well, I guess I'm going to drive. And it's like, okay, but there has to be some hope on the drive. There has to be like some moment where you feel like, okay, this is something that could potentially work.

And there's just a lot of plays and because he's slight and I know it'll get bigger, he gets kind of rerouted a little bit as he's on his way to the rim okay I think there's somebody we left out though that we need to make sure we get to and is that your number two guy right now? No I've read it too. Who are you talking about? Topic? So I ended up with Topic a little bit lower but I look he's like the big question right now.

Like I get asked the question, like, what do you think Nicole Topic is ranges right now more than anybody else by NBA teams? Cause no, nobody has a real great feel for it. It feels like after the, he has a partially torn ACL for people who don't know, um, six foot, six point guard can really pass and play make played for mega the prospect factory over in Serbia to start the year. And then decided to, he's owned his rights are owned, not he's owned originally by red star, which is this, you know, Euro league power over in Serbia. And he decided to go

back there for the rest of his season in January. And he sprained his knee after like four games, came back, played like four more games and ended up partially tearing his ACL. So it's a complicated conversation with him. I almost don't care that he's like good guy. I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy.

I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy.

I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy.

I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy. 13 game sample with mega when if you look at like what happened with Nikola Juricich, who I would bet is definitely a Vercillo guy based off of what I know about you, if you watch him, Juricich came in and averaged like 18 points and had like a 59 true shooting percentage after Topic went out. So I think like part of it can be attributed to the scheme a little bit but then he does stuff as a passer and playmaker where he's like clearly manipulating like old men in the Adriatic League and it's like well, this is super impressive, but Then he's like 6'6 with a 6'6 wingspan. I ended up with him at 13. Like I just don't feel super

Confident one way or another about him because the sample is is just too small. Oh wow. Okay. So you, you've dropped him quite a bit then from where you were at in May. If I... Well on the mock, yeah. I think I had him at like six on the board, but I've dropped him a good amount. Yeah.

I just never got comfortable with the sample size is my issue. I want to finish with Ronnie James. Now this is going to seem like unfair because we're comparing Ronnie to lottery picks. We're not, we're just adding in the highlight headline like any show would have like, okay, let's talk about Ronnie James.

So I did a deep dive this week and I can't believe we're even doing this. There's almost nothing that stands out. There's almost nothing that stands out. He, you forget he's on the floor in college. Yeah. The shooting numbers are not good. Cool screen here or there. I think he's a really engaged, like half court guy.

There'll be a nice pass here or there. But the idea that a team is going to spend a first round pick on this kind of player makes zero sense to me. It would have to simply be they want to do Clutch the favor or be able to say that Clutch was able to get Bronnie James drafted in the first round because we would never ever talk about a player that plays like him at his size without the shooting. There's no good numbers. There's just like, I looked at all the catch and shoot stuff

and like, you just go, what am I supposed to do with this? And if people can take this however they want, but like we're talking about draft prospects, the good and the bad. And if we went 60 players deep, Sam and I would have all sorts of players even take this however they want. But like we're talking about draft prospects, the good and the bad. And if we went 60 players deep, Sam and I would have all sorts of players that we couldn't stand. Um, but now after I've done the real like digging in and watching him play,

no NBA team would you be drafting a six, two glue guy that put up no numbers in college in the first round, but somehow we're going to debate this. Well, I can, I mean, I can tell even go more baseline than that. Like you're bringing up, like catch shoot numbers and all this stuff. I've done, you know, a dive back to like 2008 or so. And I believe that Brawny would be the only one and done like ever drafted point blank that is six foot one that averaged under five points per game. Like it's just like an uncommonly small, you know, player that didn't have production that's in the draft. And look, I would be staggered if somebody used a first round pick on him.

I don't think that's going to happen for what it's worth. I mean, like, I guess Phoenix has had him in for a workout and maybe they're going to have him in for a second one, but like, I can't. I can't see it. Honestly. I think that this is just setting up every step of the way, like Rich Paul went on that interview tour, you know, talk to Chris Haynes, talk to Woj and the folks at ESPN, right?

And strategically, everything that he did there, in my opinion, and like, I don't say this, having talked to Rich Paul, like this is just my opinion on like the strategy of the whole situation. Everything that he did there was in my opinion, in a goal to get him to fall to a certain spot, which my guess is 55 to the Lakers, right? Saying that he won't do a two way saying that he's going to be very specific with where he goes to work out, right? Turns down a bunch of workouts from teams.

To me, that's just how you set it up for somebody to drop to a certain level. So where, you know, he's able to end up in the situation that he wants to end up in. I don't have Brawny James in my top 70. I don't, I'm with you. I don't see it. Like I have Riley Minix from Morehead State ahead of him, right? Who's like a 23 year old kid that played four years at Nova Southeastern, not Nova Southeastern, Southeastern at the NAIA level, right? So I don't get it. I'm with you. I can't believe that we're doing this on some level. I can't believe that we're doing the media tour and look like I'm not going to lie to you. Like I'm guilty of it on some level. I've written, I've been asked to write like a bunch of stories on it and the stories click like undeniably the stories do incredibly well because he

is somebody people are curious about like in a real way. And I think that they're curious because of the leverage piece of it with LeBron, obviously this summer is a free agent and they're curious because of, uh, you know, the father son dynamic and everything. But look, I, he, he is a six foot one player. This is kind of what it comes down to for me. He's a six foot one player that like, I don't think can dribble well. Like everyone's like, Oh yeah, he can be like this three and D player. Do you know how fucking good Avery Bradley was at basketball? He was like a top five recruit in the country and averaged like 10 points

a game at Texas was all freshmen in that year and was like incredible defensively. He was like, Bronnie James is a good defensive basketball player as a freshman and as a teenager. He's not like Avery Bradley. It was like the best on ball defender in college basketball that year. Like it's yeah. Like I, in my opinion, it would have been better for Bronnie James. Like the, the best thing that was suggested to me by people around, you know, uh, like let's say the basketball world was Bronnie should go back to college, go to Duquesne and transfer where Drew Joyce is there. Drew Joyce obviously played with LeBron in high school, just got the job from Keith Danbrot who coached LeBron in high school.

Uh, that's a place where like, you needed a trust factor. If you feel like, you know, USC didn't go well, you know, I can't imagine them not trusting Drew Joyce to like really take care of Brawny and just letting him develop like guys are so good in the NBA. It's it's silly, but like I went through this earlier with somebody. Do you remember how good Tony Allen was in college? Oh yeah. Tony Allen won the big 12 player of the year. He won the big 12 tournament MVP. He was the best player on a 31 in four final four team at Oklahoma state that beat the Jameer Nelson, Delante West team that like everybody loved.

And like this guy ended up being like a defensive specialist in the NBA. Yeah. He was the D without the three. Yeah. And it was funny because the Celtics, the Celtics like tried him at point guard for a little while. I remember that. I was like, wait, I don't know about this deal.

Look, I think it's all fair. You're talking about players and whether or not we think they can be guys. And the more I dug into it, I just was watching it going like, that we would never, there's no player that's ever played like this that put up such little production.

And then when you look at like the catch and shoot, points per shot, and you look at like the guarded catch and shoot points per shot, and you just go, this is, uh, I actually feel bad for him. I feel bad because if he is drafted to a team that is not connected to his father in that first year, it's going to be fans that are really excited about it. And they're, they're just, they're just going to be like, well, they're going to have a

weird set of expectations on them. Well, like I've seen, I've seen too, like the idea of, Oh no, like he'll help like juice the G league team. Like he'll help, you know, get us like merchandising things. Okay. Like maybe they might sell like G league jerseys of Ronnie James, but like nobody, here's the thing. So like, let's say that you get better TV ratings.

You're not actually selling like the, you know, TV, you know, nobody, no advertisers are going to, no providers are going to take G league games because Brawny James is there without like a proof of concept. And the problem there is that, okay, let's say Brawny is good, right? And he becomes a show for the G league. He's just going to get called up and let's say that he's bad. Nobody's going to care if he's bad. So it's like USC this year, like USC, I think that their average attendance was

like 65% this year or something while Brawny was there, like it wasn't very good. Like it's any of the like marketing things I've seen, like I just think that they fall apart on any sort of closer scrutiny. Um, no, yeah. Like to me, it's all about like you mentioned, like feeling bad for him. Like it's all about the kids and like all about just like making sure these kids like get developed in the right way. And I truly think that like the best circumstance for him would have just been like going to

a smaller school and becoming more comfortable just handling the ball and you know being a better on ball player. When's the newest mockout? You're out today you're saying? I don't whenever it gets edited today or tomorrow I would hope. Yeah, because what is this? Is this going live Thursday? Live Thursday.

So yeah, hopefully Thursday it'll be out. And then the full draft guide will be out on Thursday or Friday is the idea. So you guys will have a lot of words from me over the course of the next little while. Looking forward to it. Uh, you can check out Sam's work on the athletic, uh, as I do religiously, uh, Sam Vassini. Thanks man. Yeah, of course, anytime. You want details?

Fine. I drive a Ferrari, 355 Cabriolet. What's up? I have a ridiculous house in the South Fork. I have every toy you could possibly imagine. And best of all kids, I am liquid. So now you know what's possible. Let me tell you what's required.

Life advice, the email address, lifeadvicerr at gmail.com. Before we get to some of the emails, we'll get to other emails. I don't know if the nation has ever been less divided on a topic, then our guy wondering if he should build a van to live in. What's that? I didn't know that would be that controversial. I thought that was, no, I said less divided. Okay. Okay. I thought, yeah, no, we are, we are unified on this one rare for us.

But, uh, when it comes to just a guy going, I'm not good at this stuff. I think I'm going to build a van to live in and drive around. Uh, the nation unites is maybe a better way to phrase it. So, um, yeah, it's kind of like the, you know, Hey, I suck at cooking, but I'm thinking about opening up my own restaurant. That would make more sense. What it, the hope is just to end up on bar rescue and get free stuff. It's the one in a million shot.

Whip you into shape. Oh my God. I love it. Whenever the advertisers are based on the culture of the town, just like, I would just want people to feel like they're, they're more connected to Tucson. Mesa fries. Yeah, there you go.

What's when you're in Rutland, what do you think about? It's a blue collar town, right? People are spending their paychecks. It's a blue collar town, right? People are spending their paychecks. And when he's in the SUV and the other person just has to say yes to like every idea. Like Rutland, I'm thinking logging, mud, traffic, brown snow. What slides? And then the other expert is just sitting there,

shotgun going, yeah, makes a lot of sense. Like construction guys getting off of work, railroad workers, you know, they're going to walk in and think mudslide. Okay. I, I don't know how many of these van ones I even want to read. I think there were just a couple of good ones. Okay, here we go. Six foot, 220, bench, 225, leading into that dad bod life. I have an important response to the 20 something guy considering a van build.

Do not do it. My wife caught the van life fever at the beginning of COVID and I was ultimately forced to agree to the project. Here's the thing. I'm decently handy having worked for several subcontractors, done a fair amount of home renovations over the years. And this project is way over my head. Our guys should expect this project to be five times more expensive than

the expense than he expects and 10 times more time consuming. I stupidly thought I could knock this thing out in six months, but here I am four years later with the project 60% done. I was able to do all the framing and cabinetry, but I'm a complete loss, at a complete loss when it comes to electrical power, plumbing, et cetera. Our van now sits on the side of the house collecting dust. Our guy would be better off yoloing on GameStop with Roaring Kitty. Thanks for the show, guys.

All right. Wow. Living in a van down by the river. Not as, not as easy as it seems. It's hard. Not fully referenced for you. Yeah. Nope.

We got it. All right. We got it. Appreciate it. So we skew younger lately. So I just wanted to throw it out there. Yep. That's fair.

Uh, this guy said to the guy who wanted to get a van to go see the national parks Don't do that You're over your skis assuming you'll have the time tools and skills you need to build out a van the way you want get a Four-by-four slap on a rooftop tent buy yourself a small diesel heater and some cheap camp gear and you're set cheaper more efficient Easier side bonus. You'll also have a car Good one have a car. That's a good one. I admire your goal to build something to see the parks but building a van will take all that desire out of you almost like buying a boat. The second best day is when you get rid of it. Yep, we've heard the joke

a thousand times. But my C-mail is really good. I don't think we have anything else to add. Although yeah I did have somebody follow up and be like, Hey, you, people get so mad about, I've noticed this over the years of like, whenever I reference any of the construction days, people get really mad about it. Like I'm fucking lying about it. Yeah. Like, I don't know what to tell you.

Um, but yeah, mostly the, the framers don't know how to do any of the other stuff and the electrical people don't know how to do any of the other stuff. And the electrical people don't know how to frame and the finished carpenters want nothing to do with the framers and the framers don't have the delicate touch of the finished carpenters. I mean, you know, look, it's a team. It's a team. There's rebounders, there's screensetters, there's shooters, defenders.

Who's the star player on the con, who's the little brawn up the construction site? Well, that's the star where on the con who's little brawn up the construction site. Well, that's the GC. But it just becomes a collection of everybody thinking everybody else sucks at what they do, which is really funny. It is a lot like a basketball team. It's almost like a Paul George podcast. We're like after the house is done, you just do a pod. GC's like, well, our insulation guys, we're not great. It's like, well, isn't that really your call?

By the way, Paul George sharing that Harden said that a player's talk and Darrell Morey and the Sixers and all this stuff. Do you realize how insane Paul George sharing that while he's sharing the ultimate leverage that he has to get the extra year from the Clippers? All right, that's more of an open. It's not really life advice.

I won't entertain this here. Yeah, no, I feel like we're, I need to warm us up here. So let's just get to an email. Okay, picking up girls at the gym. Good luck. 25, five, seven, 173. Precise dude. Player comp, late career Raymond Felton.

Not at 173, dude. Decent passer, might hit a three, but that's about it. I live in Brooklyn, originally from New Jersey. I've never been much of a ladies man. Stems from self-confidence issues, lack of putting myself out there and kind of not wanting to get out of my own comfort zone. Moved to Brooklyn back in October. I went on a bunch of dates for a while,

mainly through online dating. I've always kind of hated the guy that hits on girls at the gym, but recently I was thinking of sparking a conversation. I figure someone who gets to the gym could potentially be worth pursuing. The question is, is there a good way to go about this or have you ever done it? I love the pod. Not gonna lie, it's a tough one. Yeah, if you're not a

ladies man and you're primarily interacting with women via online, this is not the place to try out your skills. You know, maybe try a farmers market first or something. God damn. You think a farmer's market is easier? That's AAA? No, I actually don't think so either, but I just, I wouldn't. Yeah, I don't know if that's. The summer league is not, it's definitely not the gym.

I mean, I feel like. What's the summer league, what's the summer league of meeting people? College? Amusement park? Well, college, obviously, yeah, totally, totally. 1000% College is, cause it's just, there's that great line in the swingers. College is like college, obviously. Yeah, totally. Totally. 1000 colleges. Cause it's just, there's that great long and college is like a skills camp. It's like a summer skills camp.

Yeah. I almost feel like it's kind of like a lower. Is it like D three hoops? We're like, well, that shit's not going to work when you go to the next level. Like you think you can dribble past this guy and you think that's a good shot but once the competition gets a little bit better that that moves not gonna work it's been dribble. Yeah that's good. I think the major leagues is just maybe meing district in its prime. I would probably name like five different LA hangs. Yeah.

But like, if you walk into there, you will be exposed immediately. Uh, or you just, you just hang and cheer, you know, Hey, made another three. Happy to be here, guy. Yeah, right. Like I didn't. Free, hey, made another three. Happy to be here, guy. Yeah, right. Like I didn't. Free shirts guy, free gear guy. Yeah. Uh, okay.

The gym, the gym, um, I think the only way it really works at the gym. And you've already said like, by the way, first of all, uh, very basic thing that I believe in is that I too don't like the guy that hits on everybody at the gym. Cause I'm just like, here you go. But in a way, I think there's a little baked in, is it jealousy? Is it, is it, I wouldn't do that, but I kind of wish I could or good for him. Like who gives a shit.

Now the guy who hits on everybody at the gym falls into a bunch of different categories. Like one guy is just that good of a ladies man and he's good looking and he looks great at the gym and he's just had a very, right. He's had a very, very blessed life and he is the number one option when women are out and they see him with his group of friends, like he's the number one option and congrats to those fucking guys because you're just going to have a different life than the rest of us. The, the other guy is the guy that just doesn't care. He knows he has no chance, but he's still just going to do it.

And I think that guy trends a little bit older or maybe he's divorced and he's like, fuck it, fuck everything. Just firing on everybody everywhere. Cause I don't care. And he's just, he's playing a volume game and it eventually might even work out for him. Yeah. Kind of like the Nick Young of, of Jim guys, but older,

who won the first time he gambled. And now he's just like, fuck, remember that one time that was awesome. Because at some point it works, right? At some point, some of this works. But if anyone, if it's a woman that's at the gym, that is. Let's say a certain tier of desirability. Careful. Yeah. I mean, she's dealt with this her whole life. Um, and look, everybody wants

attention, but they usually wanted from the people they want attention from. So for somebody who was really into the gym, who's a woman, you know, in a way it's, it's kind of like, seriously, like this is going to happen fucking here too. Um, you know, I know some people are listening like, Oh, you poor thing that everybody's always chasing after you, but like you get the point. You go to the gym. You hope you could kind of escape it. Although some gyms almost are catered to like, you feel like, is this

about meeting people or whatever? Like I've rolled into some places when I've been traveling, I'm like, what the fuck is going on here? So the only thing I can tell you, the only thing that I think ever works. And the trainer things like a whole nother level that's like, that's, that's the NBA finals, if it's not the league. Because the trainer is like, Oh cool. Another guy's hitting on me because the trainer is a bit like the cocktail

waitress where like, she kind of has to say hi to you more so than just another patron and then you think like, Oh, this is great. Like she's engaging with me a little bit. It's like, yeah, well, she kind of has to because she fucking works there. Um, so it really felt, yeah. Right. So don't start thinking that you're actually making any headway. The only thing I can tell you is just the long game.

It is the long game, uh, scenario because you're going to probably see this person again if you're on the same gym routine. Whereas if you see a girl out, I don't know, you might not ever see that person again. So you'll think like, okay, I have to, there's pressures on. Yeah. I've got to figure out how to make a great first impression. I have to seem interested. I have to ask good follow-ups. I have to listen more than I'm talking. I have to do all these things. I have to maybe somehow impress her in a way that doesn't seem listen more than I'm talking, I have to do all these things, I have to maybe somehow impress her in a way that doesn't seem arrogant, but I am talking myself up a little bit.

So, you're like all these things that you have to do in a very short amount of time in a difficult setting, the gym, the bonus is that you're probably gonna see that person again. So, if I'm advising you here on this one, although I appreciate you wanting to go, hey, I need to be a little different, I'm gonna have to change. I think those are really good things. The self-awareness that you're talking about, but it's tough. It's going to be really tough. And I think you have to

go at it from a, make some sort of connection, whether it's, hey, are you done with that rope pull down? Okay. And then, you know, you don't want to shoot see her a week later be like yeah wrote pull-down girl. What's going on? but you know what I mean like yeah, you need a little bit of of that because you'll If you're aware of any of the cues of this stuff like there's times in all of our lives and I think the men listening To this go actually I don't think it, I can only speak from a man's perspective, but all of us will notice like, Oh, okay. That was a slightly different reaction or there's a, there's a follow up there or somebody's like talking to you. Right. Like I thought about wearing the walking boot for the rest of my life.

Once I was walking around at the gym and that thing. Oh my God. Yeah. I was like, maybe I just keep this thing on forever and join like five gyms. This is incredible. But you have to plant a seed in a way that seems like you're not planting it.

And then progressively move forward. Maybe it's a catch up for a couple minutes. Hey, where are you originally from? So now you're actually having that conversation granted much later than you would have the timeline of randomly meeting this person at a bar or first date or any of that kind of stuff. Um, so that you are presenting yourself as like not a friend first, but somebody that wasn't so eager that you were asking for your phone number while

you're on the fucking elliptical. Yeah. Also, it's not just like, this isn't like a hunting ground, which I think he's like talking about. Like there isn't like some girl, this isn't an email about a girl that he saw. He's like, should I just start firing shots? So yeah, this is, you're not invested in anyone it sounds like. So yeah, I think start, start the long game now.

And, and you know, as long as you're not writing in with a gym altercation thing, you won't have to switch gyms and start from scratch again. So that'll be good. But yeah, I agree with you. It's like be cool over a long period of time. Don't be like desperate or annoying or whatever. Just like, you know what it takes to be cool. We've all been in high school, right? Even if you weren't that guy, you know what it looks like to be cool in those situations. So just, yeah, I agree, long game, that's all I have. My question would be why, you know, we all have our things, we're all good at what we're good at.

Why is this like where he's just trying to step out and just like, hey, let me flex this muscle that I don't normally flex by talking to people at the gym or talking to girls at the gym? Because like, there's nothing wrong with, you know, if you're not like Rico Suave and somebody who's going to go up or just physically impress someone or impress them with conversation, there's nothing wrong with the online dating scene or just doing stuff the normal way.

So I'm just interested in why he wants to do this. Does he just feel like he needs to as a man of, hey, I need to talk to girls in person and do it the old fashioned way. Because I don't, if he's not comfortable with it and it's kind of awkward for him, you don't have to do it. So I guess that would be my advice. It's like, you don't have to do this if you don't want to do it. So I don't know why he wants to so bad. Maybe he's just like riled up on the treadmill and he sees all these people and he's like, should I do something about this or do I just have to let it go? I don't know. See, I like that. I like that he's looking around going,

all right, I need to be more in the mix here, but it's just very difficult. Like guys that'll write in and be like, I'm having a tough time meeting women, and you just go, well, okay, all right. And we're like, what do we say? Probably say the same stuff over and over again. Like join the local yoga spot.

But the problem is, if you're like a really- I never say that, by the way. I never said that. No, but if you went into like a yoga class regularly and you're probably one of the few men in there, but then you still, your access has changed, but if you haven't really changed your mindset about it, then it just means that you're not going to talk to anybody, talk to anybody in this setting, right? The same as the farmer's market or any other thing.

I think the farmer's market or any other thing. I think the farmer's market is like insane town, by the way. Just like, no, that's wrong. Like, Hey, I got to tell you the raspberries down there are way better. Is that your kid? Oh, how sitting. So, uh, cause I like, we, we talked about the breakup with the guy who just broke up earlier this week and the realization is you get older where, you know, you

don't want to spend a ton of time of relitigating the past, but there'll be these moments once you get out of that heartbreak scenario of like, I can't believe I spent this much time feeling this way, right? But it's just hard to get yourself out of that sooner, even with everyone around you telling you that time is going to fix it. And it really does. This is not the same thing, but there's similarities in that you'll probably hit a certain age of being single.

If you end up being single older, where you'll think, what was the hangup with this? Or why didn't I do this? Or why wasn't I more outgoing when I lived here? Or I actually had better, you know, like there's just a lot of stuff that you get a little older. And that's why I think older guys that are single, um, I'll see some of them. I'm like, these guys don't give a shit. They just fire on everybody because they've worked

themselves either. They've always been that way. They've't give a shit. They just fire on everybody because they've worked themselves. Either they've always been that way or they've worked through that reluctancy, that apprehension of caring about rejection or how other people will perceive them. Because they're just thinking like, God, I don't see that most of that shit was a complete waste of time. So I actually like that the emailers aware of some of these things saying, I would like to change this up a little bit. I'm just telling you. Just just plant those friend seeds, man. See where it goes. Okay, this is a weird one. So let's let's end on this because it almost seems fake.

Should we do a fake check? We'll copy paste. Yeah, whatever. We'll go for it. Player cop Marcus Mara do all the right things, but teams are still probably better off without me. One year into becoming a gym guy, to which I partially credit this podcast for, we'll

pass on sharing my rookie year stats though. All right, man. Good view. I'm looking for advice on what to do about a supposed neighbor who honks a repetitive jingle in our parking lot at random times, often in the middle of the night, roughly about once per week to set the stage. We're in a 15-story high-rise in Detroit with an uncovered parking lot at the ground level.

All right. So everybody following along? All right. It makes sense. Yep. It began about six months ago around 3 a.m. on a weeknight, someone laid on the horn in a pattern that lasted seemingly 30 seconds. I'm sure it woke everybody up.

It started to happen more frequently and I've stood at the window to see if I could spot who it was. They clearly hang out in their vehicle for a long period of time. I've watched for over 10 minutes, making sure everyone watching out their window gives up and, or they've parked in the spots directly up against the building where no one can see them. I'm obsessed with the idea of finding out who this person is. On one hand, there's six month dedication to the bit and ability to evade

the HOA militias outstanding When the hawker attacks in the daytime hours, I kind of dig it It's familiar and it makes me laugh on the other hand our building has plenty of young couples with newborns and dozens of seniors Who I'm surprised haven't thrown a fit over it yet. I'm pretty severe Antisocial behavior at this point and I'm a little worried about this person's's mindset is clearly living among us i've come to the conclusion i've come to the conclusion the only way to discover the culprit would be run downstairs the moment the hockey begins and stake out by the vending machine for as long as it takes my question is what do i do when i see them come to the door approach i'm extremely anti conflict i don't want problems with the stress person where I live. Of course, I could just check out who it is and continue to scan the vending machine like nothing's going on. The issue there is my wife will demand I rat on him to the association.

I've never considered myself a rat. Would exposing the honker to the HOA militia make me one? Do I just learn to enjoy being woken up in the middle of the night to a familiar jingle? Okay. I wonder what the jingle is. I know. I wish she had told us.

This is dedication. It's one thing to call it. Probably should realign your enthusiasm somewhere else, but yeah. I'm sure I wouldn't love it, but I wouldn't want to help out the HOA no matter what. Yeah. What am I paying you for? You should be finding this fucking guy. So, all right, Kyle, you can go first. Kyle's looking to me. I wouldn't consider it snitching

if you find this guy that everyone hates. Maybe what you could do is go vigilante, like a little, you could just like make a, make a printout and be like, found the honker, do with it what you will. And like you, I think you want to know if this guy lives here or not. Right. You, I can't imagine the dude lives there like does that. And then, you know, either on his way to work in the morning. I don't, yeah, well, cause it's gated.

I don't know how this happens, but there's so many questions. I think, I think your instincts to run downstairs as soon as this thing starts, so you can catch a glimpse of Santa Claus. I think that's great. I think you should do it. Uh, what you do with it. I think there's a couple of ways you, it could go. Um, I wouldn't feel bad about turning this information over to somebody who

could fucking ruin this guy's day. I wouldn't, I actually wouldn't feel bad about turning this information over to somebody who could fucking ruin this guy's day. I wouldn't, I actually wouldn't mind that. He's like, he's not doing something to better himself. And it's like, it's not like, oh, he's winning and we have to lose cause he's winning, he's just doing something that sucks. Um, so I would be okay. I'd be okay with that. If, if, but if you don't want to do it, maybe you just post it on the bulletin

board, be like, I found the guy. You guys want to do anything that's on you. Um, but yeah, I think totally go, go after it. Find this guy. Even if nothing happens, you'll feel good that you solve this one. Even if nothing bad happens, I think it's good to have a dream. It's good to have a goal. So, uh, this is attainable.

I think you should do it. That's what that was my thought. It like if the HOA and nobody else in the building is like really, I'm sure maybe every individually is talking about it, but they haven't shared their displeasure with other people in an effort to find this person. This could be like a nice little side project for you, you know, just if you're trying to kill some time.

Like, I don't know, I don't know what your life is like, if you're super busy, but you know, sometimes dudes are bored out there. And if you wanna, you know, maybe you stake out, maybe you like, do you sleep in your car one night in the garage to see if you can kind of do it that way it's not gonna be easy but it could be kind of like a fun side thing and then yeah when you actually do find the guy confronting him and be like hey I know it's you and I have a number I have

fun over you yeah so that that's kind of what I would do and I mean you can snitch I don't think stitching would be I mean as Kyle said like it's you're being the guys being asked you're like Robin Hood you're not really think snitching would be, I mean, as Kyle said, like it's, you're being, the guy's being an asshole. You're like Robin Hood. You're not really a fucking snitch at that point. So I think you can kind of play it whatever way you want. Don't feel like being, you're not being a dick by tattletaling on this guy, but I would, I would kind of make it, I would, I would be like a PI. I would just kind of stake out different places,

maybe set up some cameras. I don't know if that's legal or not. So maybe check that first, but I would do this on my own. Yeah. I think maybe I would put the, if I found it, I'd like make some flyers and put the information up in the like, sort of like Batman dropping off like the files at the courthouse or something, be like, do it this what you will.

And maybe there is a crazier bastard in the building that will actually do this. And there's no blood on your hands. That way you can sleep at night. You know, this guy's getting his and you're the guy who solved the crime. So I think that's what we call a win, win, win. A couple of things.

If the guy's getting home from work at 3 a.m., what does he do? And what's this guy made of? Train operator maybe. Wasn't my first guess, but could be. Cabby. Can't rule it out. Uh, I'm just wondering if, if this person might be a, yeah, it might be a little rough around the edges. I think you're more person might be a little rough around the edges. I think you're more likely to be a little rough around the edges when

you're coming home from work at 3 a.m. Um, yes, I understand there's other jobs that have different timelines, but I think the odds are, so I mean, this guy's like security somewhere. Yeah, maybe he's working radio. Absolutely. Layup. Like, Oh, what are you doing? Some local lamb stuff. You running the board.

All right. It's on. So yeah, you never know. Never know. You could, you could find out who he is, know who he is, not confront him. Go with the vending machine thing. Kind of like nod, try not to give it away, because you don't want to, you said you're anti-conflict.

And then just maybe leave a note. Maybe you make it your own little game and you just anonymously write a note and put it on his car and say, I know who you are. Okay. Maybe you find out. Start a little distortion thing. Once you see who he is, find out what unit he's in,

maybe a little 4 a.m., just Boat Horn right outside of his door and then leave a note, be like, you wanna play games? This is all of course, if he's not a bouncer coming home at three in the morning, right? In Detroit. So the other thing I think is the person that does this, the person that honks the horn to a jingle

in the middle of the night is dedicated to this routine. A lot of people do stuff for laughs to get the approval of their friends. They're like, I'm going to do this, but I'm getting a reward. It's a completely different person. Their makeup is very different. When you have that friend, it's like, why are you doing this? Like I'm doing it for my own enjoyment with no one knowing that it's happening.

I don't want to call that person psychotic because that's a broad term, but like we had a friend that did a prank, which I'm not going to get specific about. It was disgusting. And it was, we were all living in college and he just, like the prank went on and on and nobody could really figure out what's going on. Dudes were getting pumped out by it.

And the guy that was doing it was so excited about talking about it. He'd be like, what do you think this guy's deal is? And then one of the other guys is like, dude, it's you then. Like you just three times that you can't. I'm asking about it. Right, you just were like, man, did everybody see what happened? And then they were like, no way that you can't. Stop asking about it. Right. You just like, man, did everybody see what happened? And then they were like, no way. I can't believe this keeps happening.

That guy's awesome. God, yeah. Genius. This guy's a real wild card, huh? And then finally, he just broke. And then the guy was like, somebody told, somebody told. And we're like, no, you fucking weirdo. What is wrong with you? So No, you, what are you fucking weirdo? What is, what is wrong with you? So there's one thing to do it for the approval of many. There's one thing to do it for the approval of none.

And him just laughing, doing this little jingle by himself. Like I think it adds to the fear factor just a little bit. Sure. Just a little. Don't, don't, I don't, don't get the HOA involved. I love how the first thing is it well first thing I would never want to help out the HOA in any situation We should have someone on from an HOA that would be great would they do it How honest do we have to be about what we want to talk about yeah Well, I know what they would do. Is that violating it?

Is that right? I know how they would position. I guess they'd say justify their positions over time. All right, I guess we didn't have enough on that. That's a tough one. I mean, we get a bunch of emails where they're like, I can't believe you didn't think of this. We're like, all right, well, I think we got it, but don't

have it. Do you have any thoughts on leaving notes around an apartment complex? My mom, I was embarrassed when I was younger, but she was a big note-leaver. She put stuff on her truck. She was driving around with stuff on her truck like about stuff that happened to her shout out Arlington Auto and tire a couple years. She just had like her bad experience in like decal letters on her truck We got I think we got a apartment Wait, what what what are you talking about? I'm saying, well, my first thing was gonna be, what do you, do you have thoughts about like

leaving notes around an apartment building? Like, are you guys mad about this too? The only experience I've ever had with it was, I guess, seeing like movies and TV. And then my mom was just like, her and I lived in an apartment, well, for most of our time together, but the last apartment we were in,

she was just like a note-leaver. She was like, they put up these like posts around, we had like a circular, like a, what do you call it? It was a circular like drive around and the apartments were in the middle of this circle. And somebody put- Coldestack? Posts, somebody, no, it wasn't,

Coldestack's just a straight up like circle of road this was like a road around the apartments yeah sure exactly a donut I don't know if that's the technical term but anyway somebody the manager put posts around because people were driving too fast so if you lived in the back and you wanted to drive your groceries to the back you had to get out take these posts out of the ground and she was really upset and she went on like a tirade about it and left notes all over the place we're like trapped the back. I think that was her slogan. Wow. She had a slogan. Yeah. Traps in the back.

Yeah. Conoroy enough already. But she started this whole thing and then the manager was leaving notes about like a trouble causing tenant and it was like, I was a little embarrassed. Like my mom's a trapped in the back lady, but she's a signs on her truck, posting things type of lady. I just want to know if you guys have thoughts about people who try to start a revolution in their apartment. I gotta be honest with you,

that post in the road thing, fucking up your grocery delivery, initiated by the HOA, I'm on your mom's side. I get it. There was, we live next to an old lady, it's like, what is she gonna do? She's gonna get out and take this post out and then get back in her Buick.

Come on. Yeah, I mean, I couldn't be more anti-HWA, so I'm taking your mom's side on that one. But general rise up notes in the living community, I would probably not put a ton of time into those. I would read it and go. I was a little embarrassed, I gotta be honest. Yeah. I was a little embarrassed. I gotta be honest. Yeah. I was a little embarrassed. Yeah. We had the Facebook groups going on.

That's the new. When I was in West Hartford. That's the new bulletin board notes. Yeah, that was the new note taking. Because it was like, hey, this dog. And then that started kind of like a war. And then somebody patio went further than it was supposed to. When I had the Kentucky Derby party and brought a pony,

and it was an adult party., when I had the Kentucky Derby party and brought a pony and it was an adult party, it wasn't for swingers, but there was no kids. And when you bring a pony to a condo community, and there's a bunch of kids watching, asking their parents why they can't go over and touch the pony. And by the way, we didn't like turn any kids away. We just didn't invite our neighbors.

It was a work thing. I invited the people right next to me and the other people on the other side, but I didn't invite people I've never interacted with socially nor had any goals to ever be friends with. And so when it's the middle of the day and I could see all the decks of the other units across the green and it was kids, kids, kids, kids, all like pointing and looking at the pony.

And again, if a kid had come over and said, can I pet the pony? I would have happily, I love kids. I would have been like, go ahead, but I'm not inviting your dad. So, um, and then you could turn into like a lingering kid pony thing. So because none of the parents were invited then I've mentioned this before

and Cerruti knows cause he was at the party. That guy started like a Facebook war against like, do we think that that's right to have a live animal, a pony at this house in the common area? And it wasn't even the case, it was my back area, but technically like another 10 feet from There's no fences, right? Yeah, right. It's just kind of those like fake back porches that you have in those kinds of condos

where there's a plastic divider and then you see the back of everybody else's back porches. So the funny thing was is he started up this whole thing of like, hey, shouldn't we have been more mad about this? Or what does he think he's doing? Like, what do you think I'm doing? Having a pony over here next fucking week, man? Like this isn't a thing.

Do you have to fill out some forms to get that pony in into your, uh, you think I was going to ask anybody ahead of time? It's more of an ask forgiveness than permission situation. No, I wasn't. I wasn't. Cause then a neighbor came over and she's like, are you on Facebook? I'm not. And I've got some news for you.

Yeah, she's like, the guy across the thing is like trying to start like a thing with you. I was like, well, I guess that if I have a pony over here again soon, he'll get me. Yeah, next time I'm screwed. I will say those, I've tried to quit Facebook like multiple times, but those town groups, man, like the drama that is in those things,

it is better than like Netflix shows. It incredible like they should just make episodes there's somebody should do like a black mirror thing just based off of town drama like every episode is a new town drama thing because there was one yesterday and ours that was like I'm married to a prominent member of the you know member of the town and I'm looking for a divorce lawyer anybody in Connecticut and we're like whoa who is this? Like this is incredible. And there's just always these bombs that get dropped in there

and some of it is just like petty bullshit and some of it's like real shit. I cannot, I can't quit it. I can't quit it. I'm like addicted. I kind of need to know what's going on in Poughkeepsie then. Yeah, I look, there's one on the vineyard apparently that is unhinged.

It's incredible. So I don't need that in my life, but I understand it. I understand why people will be involved. Okay. This is a super long podcast episode, so I'm ending it right now. Thanks to war gone. Thanks to Kyle. Thanks to Saruti.

Today was a lot of fun. Please check out our YouTube page and subscribe. And as always, Ryan Rossela podcast, Ringer and Spotify. Must be 21 and older, 18 plus in DC and present in select states. Fandual is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit FDuel.com forward slash RG in Colorado, DC, Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, and Vermont.

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