The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Did the Bucks Punch Their Finals Ticket? What to Make of the Warriors' Historic Loss, Plus Ben Wallace on Today’s Best Defenders

Episode Date: May 12, 2022

Russillo shares his thoughts on the Bucks’ Game 5 win over the Celtics in Boston, the Warriors 134-95 loss to the Grizzlies, and Suns-Mavericks (0:39), before talking with Hall of Famer and NBA champion Ben Wallace about today's best defensive NBA players, game planning for Shaquille O’Neal and Kobe Bryant in the 2004 Finals, head coach Larry Brown, playing with LeBron James in Cleveland, the hardest players to defend, and more (18:53). Finally Ryen answers some listener-submitted Life Advice questions (42:37). Host: Ryen Russillo Guest: Ben Wallace Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

today on the podcast hall of fame four-time defensive player of the year ben wallace on today's best defensive players a little 2004 nba finals larry brown changing his role uh and that i'll leave a little open on the playoffs from last night, including an absolutely historic beatdown of Golden State Warriors by the Memphis Grizzlies. Hot night in the city in Memphis. Grind City, you know the deal. And Milwaukee, did they just punch their ticket to the NBA Finals? It's coming up right now. Game sixes, I guess, is the best way to get into this one. We could have game sevens all over the place on Sunday. But we start with game five. Which game do we do first?

I think we'll do the Milwaukee win first in Boston. So, a couple ways of looking at this one. Milwaukee never quits, which is true. Boston gave it away, which I feel like is also true. You know, one doesn't have to insult the other. There's a couple things that we need to get to, and then we'll talk Drew Holiday, right? Because his block, his save, the whole thing,

it was everything that I love about Drew Holiday. And the reason why I argue, you know, I just think over the course of watching, and maybe this season is the outlier. I just think Drew's a better defender than Marcus Smart. And we'll get into some of the stuff that drew said after the fact because i'd say even some of the storytelling of the block on marcus smart with 11 seconds left again eight seconds on the shot clock in about it at 11 that i would go yeah i don't know if i buy into that all right so boston um you know these are two really good teams and pretty evenly matched

uh without middleton. That's the way it feels. Almost at times, it feels like, okay, Giannis is going to have that quarter. There's nothing you can do. That's going to happen almost every single game. When you're watching it in that moment, you're like, all right, Milwaukee's better than them. Then when Boston could get Jalen going, could get Tatum going smart, actually hit a couple big threes in these Horford games that you had in game three and four. You're like, wait, does Boston have more options? Derek White's played better.

And Grant Williams, you know, I think they benched him. I don't know if it's because of his offense or they don't like some of the defensive matchup stuff, even though he's done really good, a great job, I think, ISO'd up against Giannis. All right, so Boston's up 14 with under 10 minutes to go. And you're like, all right, they're going to take a lead. This is going to be tough for Milwaukee to get two in a row against them.

It just is without Middleton, even though we have a status update, which tells us maybe, maybe, or maybe next series, because that's what it feels like it happened last night. It feels like Milwaukee not only punched their ticket to the Eastern Conference finals, they punched it to the NBA finals. And I'll get to that because of how just meh I am about Philly and Miami in the aftermath of that series five game set. All right, so 14-point lead, as we mentioned.

If we fast forward to the end, Giannis hits a three to make it 105-102 Boston. I would agree with Stan Van Gundy that every time Giannis takes a three, it's like a sigh, an exhale by the opposing team, being like, thank you for doing that. And of course, Giannis hits a three, it's like a sigh, an exhale by the opposing team. It's like, thank you for doing that. And of course, Giannis hits the biggest one. Drew had a big one. And then Giannis at the free throw line, down one, misses it. Bobby Portis gets in there.

And now all of a sudden, Milwaukee is up. And the TD Garden is like, all right, how did this happen? Now, inbounding 108-107 Milwaukee lead, 11.4 on the clock. Marcus gets the ball on the inbound. It immediately goes baseline because he thinks he has the angle on Pat Connaughton. And Drew just instinctively is like, you know what? I'm leaving Jalen Brown. Jalen's on the high side of the play.

So it's not really a passing angle. Maybe Marcus Smart is going to go for it. Much like Marcus Smart went to try to do like a hero drive after the Giannis three and turned it over. So now you have Smart in this position where it looks like he wanted to go immediately. He gets it blocked.

Drew keeps it in bounds, saves it, and then as he's going out of bounds, throws it off of Smart. Milwaukee basketball. Game blouses. throws it off of Smart, Milwaukee basketball, game blouses. Now, I read everything and listened to things after the fact. Smart said the play was for Tatum, and I guess it was.

Because after this happens to Smart, he waves his hands and starts pointing to other people being like, what did you guys do wrong? You guys did something wrong. Meanwhile, Smart just straight up got blocked by a help defender and then had it thrown off you. because anyone that's ever played basketball, when you have the ball thrown off of you after you get your shit stuffed and it's off of you, it's the worst feeling because you're like, all right, something didn't go great for me. And now I just get the ball thrown off my face and I'm humiliated, even though it wasn't off of smart space. That's another level of humiliation. Anyone that's ever had it,

you just stand in the baseline feeling worthless because you're like, right, and there's nothing you can do. Smart, however, started pointing at other people as if it was actually somebody else's fault that his shot was blocked. Now, apparently, again, like I said, the play was for Tatum and he was supposed to release, but nobody did anything. And by the way, Tatum was in the opposite corner. So I don't know if Horford didn't set a screen for him at the right time or Tatum did something wrong or whatever. I also know Smart well enough that, like I say all the time, we can't change our minds. I try to. I challenge myself to. But I'll admit when I saw Smart drive and turn over the layup attempt after the Giannis three, get it blocked, thrown off of him,

point to someone else. And then at the end, when Drew strips him, when he's trying to bring the ball up down three, which is a brilliant play again by Drew Holiday, because you're thinking, I can be aggressive and get after the basketball because if we foul him, great, we foul him up three, you're taking two free throws. That's a great strategy as well. Yes, I saw the screen grabs. It looked like Tatum was open over there, and I get back to the mind changing part of it. I feel like Marcus Maher always will have moments where he thinks he's the best player on this team, and that was one of their biggest problems.

And that's why I was so proud of him, that I felt like as his team turned things around, maybe he had moved on from that. I couldn't help but have those things creep back into my head going, this is him thinking in the moment. This is his time. This is his time. There were other plays.

Derek Wright brought the basketball up that worked into a tight three, and Smart was pissed that he didn't get the ball back to him. There was another play where Jalen was kind of cooking for a bit there, was feeling himself top of the three-point line. Marcus waving his hands, waving his hands, being like, over here, which guys will do. I mean, Grant Williams does it. Just waving his hands like a tight end down the seam against,

should we say, zero blitz? There we go. Football schedules. How excited are you for week four matchups oh my god football never sleeps stidham traded so yeah all of that smart stuff happened and i couldn't help but be home on the couch going yeah all right he had one of those games again and now there was a lot of things that should have happened they should have boxed out portis you know drew doesn't hit one of those shots, but it felt like that's it. It really does. It

feels like that's it. Now, if I do bring up some of the postgame stuff with Drew Holiday, he was talking about him having the strongest core in the NBA, that Andre Iguodala said that about him, and that he blocked the shot on purpose, cupping the ball with his other hand instead of the right hand to try to keep it in bounds because that's something he tries to do. I don't know if I'm buying all of that. I buy that he tries to do those things or thinks about it and the cord and the strength

and all those things. Sign me up, all right? But I think that block to then go, oh, I'm also going to process to be down on the ball instead of out on the ball in that moment. And if that's really, really what he did, that's nuts. All right.

So there you go. Milwaukee, probably moving on. Let's talk a little Golden State Memphis. Wait, can I interject there real quick? Yes. Because I actually was watching the play over and over again, and I thought he did it on purpose. I thought he intentionally it on purpose.

I thought he intentionally cupped his hand. I think he looked around, saw the scenario. I actually believe him. And I do not believe guys in these things. I think after the fact, it's very easy to be like, this is exactly what I wanted to do. I actually believe Drew in that saying, when he says he cupped the ball and didn't want to knock it out of bounds. Well, if he did it, I'm not saying he did it.

I'm just saying that's incredibly hard. And I've watched it so many times last night and this morning because I was trying to figure did I'm just saying that's incredibly hard and I've watched it so many times last night and this morning because I was trying to figure out what the thing is that Smart was pointing to that he was mad about and it has to be Tatum not getting out of the corner I also think that he did it because he was mad that he got a shit block um maybe you're right I'm not going to say hey I disagree with you Saruti because I don't I just would say that watching it to then go all right by the way, people that wanted the ball to stay in bounds on blocks, like Bill Russell did it, I don't think they're being honest with how hard it is. it to then also direct the angle of where the basketball is going to go while you're challenging it and adding that into

the you know mental process. I think a lot of times they're blocking at the highest point because you can't even control it. You're just getting a fingertip on it. But I do think listen, I'm sure like I said, it's easy to say after the fact. I

watched it a couple times and I was like, I think he did that on purpose. I'm not there with you, but he might have. So there you go. I don't want to dismiss it. Got some Memphis takes for you. Might like some, might not like many. Um, this was a blood, a blooding. That's what they used to do.

Reading about that yellow fever, Philadelphia, late 1700s. Check it out. Just started. I don't know what was going on there with doctors. Ben Rush would just start, I don't know, being like, hey, can you throw up and do other stuff more and then we're going to bleed you. We're going to take a pint of blood out of you. of blood out of you. I'm like, that'll work. We don't do that much. You don't hear about that much anymore. All right. So that's what it felt like for Golden State last night. Ben Rush from Memphis just working on him. Again, he's from Philadelphia.

But they got down 55 points. Like at 30, you're going, all right, how bad is this going to get? You're like 55. Are they going to get this to under 40? They lost 134-95. They were down. Golden State was down 77-50 at the half. Think about this, though, too.

Golden State actually wasn't shooting that poorly. They were 46-38% overall from three in the first half, but they were negative 11 offensive rebounds. They were negative 11. So it was 22 extra possessions for Memphis at the half. So what does this mean? It means a few things. Golden State, even at their peak, turned the basketball over.

Are you sure, Rosillo? Yeah, let's give you a little refresher course here. Golden State turnover ranks 1 through 30 in the NBA, 30 teams here. This season, 29th. Last season, 28th. 2020, 19th. Hey, that was a weird season.

Yeah, it was actually their best. Let's keep going. Championship run, Golden State Warriors, 21st in turnovers, 27th in turnovers, 2017, 22nd. When they won 73 games, they were 25th in turnovers. In 2015, 21st in turnovers. They turned the ball over. They're also a team that can be very lazy. that Draymond was saying in Memphis, kind of like suggesting that the crowd and the whole thing was a bunch of frontrunners. Golden State is probably one of the most frontrunners teams I've ever seen.

They also, I don't know who has a blast losing. I'd love to know the arena that's like, you know what, when we lose, we're fucking into it though. Like we have a great time. So I don't, I always feel like that's kind of after the fact and people are just pissed off

and they say stuff, right? So Golden State used to, even when they were good, and we're still trying to figure this out, they were always a team that was a little lackadaisical. They were teams that kind of would play to the opponent. They would almost be so confident, which again, it's not a bad thing to be confident in basketball. And for them, they deserved it when they were rolling from 15 to 19. But you could see there'd be times when you're like, are you guys really locked in? Are you just expecting yourselves to shoot yourself into a quarter here where the other team can't do anything? And by the way,

that's kind of what happened most of the time, five straight NBA finals, right? But that's not what this team is. I mean, we're three years removed from them playing in really big playoff games. And I think they carry themselves a little bit like that group. So the things that you like about the experience that this group has had from the past, things that they can rely upon, which I thought we saw in game four, and it could be just playing the results. Team wins a close game. And if they have championship pedigree, we're like, oh, there they go. Same thing with Milwaukee. I mean, does Milwaukee win that game without a final? Like they still could have, but since they won the championship last year, we're like, oh,

they won that game in Boston because they were a championship team. Maybe, maybe it's all true. I don't know. But I think we just like to say these things. So Golden State can go back and feed off of that success. But they also remind me of a team that's like, you know, you're not like, it's been three years. We don't know if this group is that good and that you carry yourselves that way at certain times, because to go into Memphis and get your ass kicked like that without jaw, although we could probably start talking about the jaw thing, because it's happening again, 25 without him and now a couple of playoff games. Um, but I still can't get game two out of my head where he was spectacular 47.

So here's what I would expect. I think Golden State stomps them in game six. And there's part of me that wants it to happen because I would say as much as I love this Memphis team and I love the city, I love how they reflect like the whole thing for a long time. I've always really dug it. I thought last night was both. Hey, we're up 50. Screw these guys. Whoop that trick.

Steph talking. Draymond talking the whole time. Let's enjoy it. And you're supposed to. The arena is supposed to enjoy it and the whole thing. It felt a bit like the little brother deal last night. And I got to tell you, like, there's a part of me with John. It's not that he made up the reason for his injury and blamed it on Jordan Poole, went to Twitter, then deleted it, and then keeps tweeting cryptic weird shit.

None of those things. He seems to just be totally fine not playing and having a blast. But maybe that's just being younger and hanging out and getting to dress up. And then, you know, the whole place is going nuts. And you could say, oh, it's him being supportive of the thing. There were elements of last night with Memphis that I didn't love. And I kind of want to see Golden State smash them in game six. And game five will just be a moment, and it won't really mean anything other than it was just a great night in that arena because it was a historic

stomping of what we're still trying to figure out. Is this a really good team? Because here's another thing that's happened. Steph is 32% in the series from three. Poole started averaging 26 points per game the first three games. He's at eight and a half the last two. Draymond has 24 assists and 20 turnovers. And much like we had warned, they have gone full on, Draymond, go ahead and try to score.

And Klay's 29%. I went longer than I wanted to. Philly, Miami, enjoy. That's recapping that series. Phoenix, Dallas. I think Phoenix is going faster. I think they found some stuff in the middle, almost like going up against a zone

where they got a little soft behind the extended pressure of Dallas. The no campaign thing, thank God. Biambo over JaVale, I assume is because they feel like he's better in pick and roll coverage. Booker was the guy throughout game five. And yes, I'm a little worried about Chris Paul. I thought his first, if you look at Chris Paul and anybody in their substitution, starts the game, brought nothing. Second sub in, not much there. Third time in, that beginning of the

fourth quarter, I thought he was more assertive, more aggressive. He was very, very passive. And if they lose that game, it's brought up since they won and Booker was terrific. But yeah, a little worried. Not just in the fatherly way, just observational. The playoffs are heating

up and you can make every game feel like Game 7 on FanDuel Sportsbook, an official partner of the NBA. Throughout the playoffs, all customers can place a no-sweat same-game parlay each week, and you're going to get up to $20 in free bets if you don't win. FanDuel has so many ways to play, and best of all, when you do win, you'll get paid faster than a fast break. All right, let's talk same-game parlays. There appears to be

an odds boost here. Embiid, Jimmy Butler to score 50 combined points was minus 125, now plus 120. Another boost, we got this one. Devin Booker or Luka

to score the first basket of the game. That's plus 250 up from 175. So let's look at some same-game parlays on top of those odds boosts. If we go Miami and Philly, a series I didn't talk about a ton in the open because I can't figure it out. Philly's favored by two in this one.

You'd have to think effort-wise you might get a little bit of effort, but also Embiid just beat up in this thing. And I think the MVP trophy depression from Game 5 storyline was a little bit of effort, but also MB's just beat up in this thing. I think the MVP trophy depression from Game 5 storyline was a little ridiculous. Alright, so we've got made threes. Tyrese Maxey over under 2.5. I like the over in that one. To score 15 or more points. Bam is minus 186. Was better. Struess is plus 240.

And Bam over 10.5 points. Let's see if we can do a little bit better than that. Oh, yeah. 11.5 points, 12.5 points, minus 360 instead of minus 900. So let's go with Bam over 12.5 points. New to FanDuel, just download the FanDuel Sportsbook app and sign up with the promo code RYAN, R-Y-E-N. Once again, that's promo code RYAN.

And if you already have an account, you're all set to bet. No sweat. Either way, you'll get up to $20 in free bets if your same-game parlay during the playoffs doesn't win. FanDuel Sportsbook, an official partner of the NBA. Must be 21 or older in select states. Refund issued with non-withdrawable

free bets that expire 7 days after receipt. Max free bet $20 per week. Restrictions apply. See full terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-NEXT-STEP or text NEXTSTEP to 53342 in Arizona. 1-800-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org

forward slash chat in Connecticut. 1-800-GAMBLER or visit panduel.com forward slash RG in Colorado, Iowa, Indiana, Illinois, New Jersey, PA, Virginia, or 1-877-770-STOP in Louisiana. 1-800-270-7117 for confidential help. Michigan 1-877-8-HOPE-NEW-YORK or text HOPE-NEW-YORK 467-369-NEW-YORK Tennessee Red Line 1-800-889-9789 Tennessee

or visit 1-800-GAMBLER.NET West Virginia. Good time of the year to have this guy on. He's a Hall of Famer, but almost more impressive four-time Defensive Player

of the Year over a five-year stretch has been Wallace. What's up, man? Thanks for doing this. Thanks for having me. Do you care about the Defensive Player of the Year award arguments as much as maybe when you were

part of it as you do now? I wouldn't say as much. It's hard to be that involved when you're not participating in the game anymore. But I do watch it. I think it's exciting. I think it's the most exciting award that the league offers.

Really? Why is that? I mean, because it takes a different talent. You know, you can't go to the gym and get better at defense. You got to be willing and you got to have a part and you got to have a determination to um to work at it so for that i think it's the hardest award to win

i agree with the effort part of it man like i i still to this day get so upset when i go you know it's it's hard to play defense the way you play defense okay that takes a rare unbelievable amount of skill uh and a body type right right so actually before before i get to some of my complaints about defense when did you know did somebody tell you like hey do you know how special you can be being able to guard centers and switch on on guards because once i first learned like i remember that orlando series maybe not so much with washington but i remember the Orlando season where I'm like, this guy's kind of crazy, man. Like what he can do. When did it dawn on you how special you were? Um, you know, I knew I always have had a athletic gift. You know, I was always a freakish athlete, no matter what sports you put

me into, you know, I was going to excel. You know, I learned that at an early age. You know, growing up in a huge family, you know, seven brothers, you learn to work for, you know, everything that you get. So, you know, coming to the league, you know, Wes Unsell spelled it out for me.

He was like, you know, I got to have a ton of guys to go out there and score the basketball. I need somebody who's capable of rebounding and playing solid defense, setting good strength screens, good picks, and stuff like that. He spelled it out to me, so that's what I went about. That was my focus.

With the game of basketball, whatever you focus on, man, you're going to get better at it. When you went to Detroit, like, did you – what did they say when they grabbed you from Orlando? When I first got to Detroit, man, it was interesting, you know, because Grant Hill was leaving. So Grant Hill was part of the trade. And for me, I was a little stunned

because I didn't know what their fans was going to expect of me. I was hoping they didn't think I was going to come out there and play like Grant Hill, but I was with the same results, just in a different way. So when you watch now then, do you have a bias?

Who do you think is the best defensive player in the game today? I don't know, man. That's kind of tough, man. I try not to get caught up in who's the best or whatever. I just think at certain times, certain positions,

you're going to have different players show up. You know, Draymond is always solid on the defensive end. You know, Rudy Gobert, you know, great at protecting the basket. You know, Marcus Smart can guard a little bit of everybody, you know, at every position. And I like Patrick Beverly. You know, Patrick Beverly goes out and, you know,

get guys rattled and get them out of the game. What would you do to Patrick Beverly if he tried to grab the ball out of your hands after a turnover for inbound? Oh, man. I don't know, man. I try not to get too involved in that part of the game. You know, a lot of that stuff to me is, you know, it's funny. You know, guys out there, you know, it's entertaining.

So, you know, I love to see guys out there enjoying themselves and having fun with their career. Yeah, but you didn't, I wouldn't say you were a talker out there, right? I mean, you were just more of a doer. You weren't somebody that got caught up into that. And I don't know that many, I don't remember many guys talking to you either.

Yeah, I didn't do a whole lot of talking. For one, I didn't do a whole lot of talking you know for for one i didn't know anybody coming into the league so so i was sort of meeting guys as i as i played against them so you know i didn't know anything about their background where they from other than what school they played at so they really have a whole lot to talk about so i just went by my business and you had she who did enough for you anyway once she got there like what's the point because he's going to do it all for you anyway right yeah i mean she came and you know our communication level went you know

went sky high you know um a guy that's you know that knows the game you know great athlete you know can play the ball play the game shoot the ball from any spot on the floor. And he's a great communicator. That's what I'm calling him. I'm calling him trash talk. I'm calling him a great communicator. Great communicator. Okay. All right. That's cool. Um, we were actually talking about you, you know, I was doing a pod the other day and we were talking about great team defenses and what I just, once it dawned on me with what you had in Detroit, all those Eastern conference finals appearances in a row was just that I don't know that I've ever seen a team one through five that can switch. I think people talk about it with players.

You know, Garnett certainly had that as a player switching one through five. But I thought the most amazing thing is that you could switch on the perimeter and Chauncey could get caught and switch in the post. And it didn't really mean that the other team had an advantage. What was that like? Once you, once it all clicked and you realized, hey, we don't have to worry about some of this stuff the way other teams do? I mean, it was a great feeling, man.

You know, I pride myself on playing defense and being able to control the game from the defensive end or the floor. And to have those guys come in and buy into my style of play, you know, it was awesome for me because um you know i told those guys coming in you know if you're giving that effort on the defensive end you know all the shots of yours on the offensive end i crash the board offensive rebound kick out you know whatever y'all need just just bring the effort on the defensive end and to have a team a team buy into that type of that type of play or that style of play, you know,

it was amazing for me. Now I remember interviewing Larry Brown. He becomes your head coach in oh three Oh four, the year you guys won the championship. And it was, it was very early in my career to even get, you know, like to get Larry Brown.

And I remember I was like, Hey, you said something about Ben Wallace where you needed to get him more shots. And of course I'm thinking like, it's just a fan watching games going, wait, wait,

Ben isn't a score. Like, why do you want to get him more shots? And of course, I'm thinking like, it's just a fan watching games going, wait, Ben isn't a scorer. Like, why do you want to get him more shots? And from the 03 season to 04, you went from six shots a game to nine shots a game. And Larry Brown, because he knows way more about basketball than I do, was like, no, no, no, we need Ben to take more shots because of this, this, and this,

and all these different things. I always bring this up now because it was a lesson that, you know, it sucks to set screens and rebound the entire time and defend if you're never getting to touch the ball enough. What was that for you? What did that mean for you for Larry to go, look, we know you're not an offensive, you know, priority,

but we're going to get you more touches. We want you to touch the basketball more. What did that mean to you? I think that was one of the biggest keys to the reason we wanted, that we wanted championship. You know, not the fact that he ran plays for me, you know, and, you know, I scored the ball, you know, a couple of times. But the fact that he made sure that everybody on the team

know that I was still part of the team, even on an offensive end. So he put everybody on notice that, you know, we're going to use every guy we got in order to get this championship. I think he put the team on notice and didn't allow guys to forget about me on the offensive end of the floor. Now, does it make

you rebound? Does it make you defend tougher when you're getting more shots? No, not really. I think for some guys it does. Maybe not you. I think for some guys it does. Maybe not you. I think for some guys, during the course of the game, they get that rhythm and they get that feeling and they go

for it. Me, I walk on the floor like that when it comes to rebounding. There's nothing that's going to happen in the course of the game that's going to change the way I rebound on the basketball because that's the one thing I can do on both ends of the floor. Yeah. See, with you, you're just different. But I do think that that happens with a lot of guys. I think

a lot of big guys are like, so I'm never going to shoot? Like, all right, maybe I'm not going to box out. Maybe I'm not going to do this every time and show on a screen. Man, I'm pretty sure that happens quite often. On every level. I was watching game three of the 2004 nba finals this morning all right and this speaks to what we were just talking about uh you

bank in a shot from the left side remember that first bucket of the game all right and then you run down the court you got to get shack chasing you and he's chasing you because it's early and you actually turn it over. I think not you, the pass was over your head. Uh, feel free to correct me at any point if I get any of these wrong. And then you ran something where it looked like they had Shaq on sheet and you ran, it wasn't like a Spain, I don't think, but it was something where all of a sudden Shaq was Shaq thought he was showing on a screen, but really what you were doing was running that back cut behind him

and he was just toast at that point. Was that all part of it? I know what the plan was. You held him to 68 points. You wanted to tire him out. You beat him in five games, but can you take us through the very beginning of the game of what you guys were kind of looking to do?

Because it looked like it was about you and trying to challenge Shaq defensively. Yeah, I mean, to start every game off, you know, Larry Brown ran the first two or three plays for me. You know, and everybody on the team knew it. Well, everybody in the gym knew it. You know, but he also knew Shaq wasn't going to step off the block to guard me.

And he knew I was capable of knocking down that 15 footer. So that first shot, you know, everybody look at it and be like, oh, he banked it. Oh, it was luck. Like, no, that was my shot. And, you know, I told the guards, if I get two steps on, you know, throw the ball ahead, you know, because what I want them to do is chase me all night. And I want him to start early, with a leg down early. And I was going to be tough nose on the defensive end.

So we're going to give him a break. He was going to have to run, and he was going to have to bang. So that was my game plan. Yeah, because he was, was you know whenever people talk about Shaq today and yeah I mean physically it's different you wouldn't have the extra guy in the block defensively you know if you played four out with him he'd have even more room and he would he would score more points but it would be weird to see I think that was like a glimpse of of just going actually we think we can exploit this guy a little bit defensively in

today's game it would, it would be challenging. It would be very challenging for him. It's challenging for any really good center, and that's why I actually think about your style and there's teams that, like, you'd be perfect. You'd be better today, I think, because of the way they play in five out and you being able to chase everybody.

Like, they wouldn't be able to bring you out on high screen thinking they have an advantage. Yeah, I mean, the game is open now. The game is leaning more toward freedom of movement. And now it's a lot of space on the floor. You know, like you say, they've got full out, you know, one in. You know, but like you say, there's more room in the paint, more room to operate.

You know, I tell people that one of my defensive scheme or one of my defensive skills was I learned to play football from, you know, my first position was safety. And I learned to see and control a football field and make plays on the football field. So in basketball, it was just, everything was just dumbed down to a small scale. So when you open a floor like that, it made me feel right at home.

During that series, and I got to know Chauncey a little bit when he was at ESPN and we were working together, I think from the outside, it was kind of like, wait, because it's the Lakers, right? And I know you've talked about it a million times, but I'm always trying to get more info on it. Because it was, you know, because it's the Lakers, right? And I know you've talked about it a million times, but I'm always trying to get more info on it because it was, you know, after that game three, Lakers scored 68.

Nobody does anything offensive. You're like, wait, is Detroit going to beat them? It felt like you, the entire team, like none of that was surprising. And I know teams always feel that way, like, hey, where nobody can beat us and all these different things. But there wasn't this epiphany, right? You went into it watching a film going,

no, we're going to do these things to them that like tell me about the confidence going into it because it didn't really feel like it was oh maybe game four now we really can beat these guys it wasn't like that was it no it wasn't it wasn't really like that you know going into the game you know we was a team that had great confidence man we had a we're a great group of guys and and the fact that we relied on everybody is what made us so strong. We had guys that came off the

bench that went on to get millions and millions of dollars contract. So we knew that with our defense and our style of play that it was just going to take a moment of time for us to wear them down

because we watched how they played. And, you know, with Shaq and Kobe, it's sort of a two-man system. So with our defensive scheme, we're playing everybody, you know, man up. So that's going to eliminate Shaq and Kobe and it's going to force the other guys to make plays. So that was our goal was to eliminate Shaq and Kobe and it's going to force the other guys to make plays. So that was our goal was to contain Shaq and Kobe

or let them do their thing and shut down everybody else. How miserable were you in Chicago? Man, I had fun in Chicago. And Chicago, I wasn't miserable in Chicago. You know, it was just, it was just, I found myself back in like my rookie situation, but as a veteran, because I was looking at a group of young, young players trying to find their way through the league.

And I was watching them go through growing pains that I already had went through and was trying to, you know, coach them through it. And, and, you know, so, so it was more of a, I say in Detroit, Chauncey was the talker. You know, I relay a message to Chauncey, you know, Chauncey, you know, talk to the team or whatever. We did it like that. But in Chicago, it was a little bit different.

But I wasn't married. It was just a young team. I had to do both. I had to do a little coaching and a little player. It just looked like at times you didn't like it. And so I think that is, again, I wasn't hanging out with you, so I don't know if you were happy or sad the whole time. It just looked like at times you missed Detroit.

You're taking even less shots. Skiles doesn't vibe with everybody, I think it's fair to say. And it felt like there was just a lot of frustration for you. And maybe, and look, I don't blame you. That was a huge contract. It was awesome for you. I was happy for you because I really liked you so much as a player. But I just wondered if you're having moments being like, damn, I miss Detroit.

I miss my guys. I mean, of course, you're always going to miss the camaraderie of the locker room when you win a championship with a team. You know, in Chicago, I say that my first year in Chicago, you know, was, you know, we had the team rolling. We was really good. We was playing, connecting really well. And the second year, man, we just had some guys get hurt early in the season

that we couldn't bounce back from. And we lost a couple of veteran players that we could have used probably for a little more leadership on the team. But, you know, and like you say, Scott Skiles is a hard-nosed coach. You know, I mean, he don't care if your back hurts. We losing. You know, come on, let's figure it out.

You know what I mean? And, you know, I can appreciate that about it, you know, about a guy who's going to who's going to stand his ground, whatever. But having a young team going through them growing pains with 12 years of NBA experience under your belt is tough. I always felt like when you got flipped to Cleveland, that Cleveland towards the end, like they were worried about LeBron, right? And they had reason to worry. And I've always made this point, like people would get mad at Cleveland management

saying they didn't do enough around him. And I go, actually, if you look at it, like they had the Larry Hughes deal, they had the Drew Gooden deal, and then they brought in Wally and then they traded for your money. So I felt like they were actually showing LeBron, like, look what we're willing to invest in.

Like, we're trying to do this. Did you get the sense that, like, how different was the Cleveland experience from, you know, post Detroit and then Chicago where it's like, hey, we're actually competing here. But it felt a little bit like it was proving to LeBron that they would spare no dollar and taking on your contract and bringing you in to try to help to compete. and taking on your contract and bringing you in to try to help to compete? I mean, I don't really know what the situation between Braun and the team was, but we were starting to win the championship in Cleveland. And I think we were definitely on pace. And for the organization to get criticized as they wasn't doing enough around Braun, I don't think that's fair either because we either because we, we had a pretty good run, you know,

the two, the two seasons I was there, we, we, we was there. We was, we was probably one play away from, from it being a LeBron James and a Kobe Bryant finals when the,

when the Celtics beat us in the East and conference final. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Um, the 2010, well, 2009, 2009 was, was the Orlando series. Uh, right. Yeah. The 2010, well, 2009. 2009 was the Orlando series. Last one before I ask you about what you're doing here. When you watch, I always feel like the competitive guys, I know the answer I'm going to get here. Tougher for you to guard Giannis or Doncic?

tougher for you to guard, Giannis or Doncic? I mean, I don't know. Both of them would be tough to guard. But it would be tough for me to guard Luka with his ball-having skill. I think Giannis will sort of play into my favor sometimes when he attacks the paint.

That's where I make my living at. So I think it would be tough to guard Luka with, with his ball handling skill. When you watch Giannis, he initiates so much contact, right?

And the post play used to be just, can I, can I push like the physicality was allowed like in that area. And now it's like, if you, I always feel like if you hit the guy a second time and he goes down, it's always going to be an offensive foul. I think Giannis has 18 offensive fouls on him right now,

which also I think speaks to the fact that he does it so often. How did you handle the moment of, all right, if I fall down, I'm more likely to get this call than holding my ground? I know it's not something you like doing, but do you remember one in particular where you're like, ah, screw it, I'm just going to fall down here? I mean, you set yourself up, man. You take charges.

You know, that's part of the game. You know, that's what we call sacrificing your body. That's part of that work of attitude. You know, not afraid to step in. Now you see a guy out of control, you step in there and take the charge. You got to get your body up.

And most of the time, you know, in a game of basketball, if you don't hit the floor, you're probably not likely to get the charge, which technically you probably could take the charge by standing up and still take the charge. But if you don't hit the ground, you usually don't get the call.

So you got to really sacrifice. Was there someone that you knew, like who gave you actually the most trouble as a defensive player of the year? Was there one guy you were like, this guy's tougher for me to figure out? Um, my style to play.

Yeah. I mean, it's more of a size style thing too, than it is. This guy's the best player, but was there somebody that you felt like, you know what, as good as I am,

this guy, it's a little harder for me. I mean, it was, it was a couple of bigs, you know, I wouldn't say I couldn't figure them out. You know,

they was just that talented that, you know, sometimes when you, you throw your best defense at them, you know, I wouldn't say I couldn't figure them out. You know, they was just that talented that, you know, sometimes when you throw your best defense at them, you know, they still able to, you know, score the basketball. But, you know, I go into the game, I go into the game with a study of everybody game, every player, not just big, but every player. And the one player that was, I think the hardest for me to figure out with his style of play, and I would have liked to have seen him play more, but he ended up getting hurt early in his career, was Brandon Roy. He's just always made the right read?

Man, it was just something about his game. He was always out of control. He changed pace. He goes slow, back fast. You know, had the mid-range, you know, can shoot it from deep. And we'll dog on you. So his game was a little tough for me to figure out. Man, he had a couple years there where he was nice.

I mean, he was lighting it up. And it's such a great answer. God, Ben, I hadn't even thought of that. Because you're right. He'd come off that screen and you would be like, some guys just go. They're very predictable. He'd stop. You know what I mean?

He'd mix it up. He'd mix up those gears on you. And I'm just thinking about it in my head right now going, what a great answer. That's a tough thing to switch on to if the guy is unpredictable all the time. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. All right. Then here's the better answer.

Give me the guy that you just knew, like Rasheed and Chauncey and those guys. I'd be like, this guy hates playing against you, Ben. Like, he just sees already this game's over before we even tipped it. Who hates? I think that was a little bit of everybody. You know, I had a couple of guys just come out here to tell me. I won't call no names. Come on.

You can't give us one name? No. I mean, I had a couple of guys who was like, oh, shit, I got to work for everything tonight, huh? So I'm like, hell yeah, you got to work. Aha. What about Dwight? Was Dwight excited when he got to play against you?

Yeah. I mean, I think early in his career, you know, anytime he played against me and Sheed, you know, you can see him bring a little extra juice. And me and Sheed love it. We expected it. We love to see guys come out there and take that challenge. Knowing that by the end of the game,

we're well now. I see you wearing that hoodie undrafted. I know you're working with a cannabis company now, so tell us a little bit more about what you've got going on. I teamed up with this cannabis company called Rare. R-A-I-R. We do our own cannabis brand

called Undrafted. We toured around to a couple of couple of our defenses we've been to muskegon kalamazoo and got a couple more appearance you know coming up this weekend or whatever and um we're just trying to get it out there and let people know that um you know this this cannabis thing you know something that we should take a closer look at to try to um kind of this thing, you know,

something that we should take a closer look at to try to, um, try to help with some of our aches and pains. And that's undrafted and you can just look that up

as far as, you know, finding out the information on that? Yeah. Website is, um, is at BW

undrafted and, you know, you can find out a lot more information to do that. This is a lot of fun, especially in a year where the Defensive Player of the Year

was a debated topic. I appreciate your insight on it, man. So thank you. Thank you. You want details? Fine. I drive a Ferrari 355 Cabriolet. What's up?

I have a ridiculous house in the South Fork. I have every toy you could possibly imagine. And best of all, kids, I am liquid. So, now you know what's possible. Let me tell you what's required. Life advice. Lifeadvice.rr.gmail.com. A couple things that we'll get to.

But I feel like I haven't talked to the guys in a while, even though we all talked just on Tuesday. Some Nikki Glaser post game. I don't know if I want to touch that one. We had a lot of tweets about it. A lot of very specific tweets about, you know, both of you potentially being single,

what's going on with there were good vibes there. So, yeah, listen, it was just it was out in the ether. I didn't say it, but the Internet's talking. The Internet is talking, Kyle. It felt really smooth. If I'm just watching you two kids

get together like that, I thought it was really nice. I didn't have to talk much. Yeah, I noticed. So, that was good. No, a lot of guys asking if we vibed. You definitely vibed. Here's the thing is... She really liked that email joke.

So, the Nate Bargatze thing, like, were there a couple of pity laughs? He even should have told you that like, it's not that great. She genuinely laughed at a couple of things. You said a couple of jokes. She made, she's like, oh, that's actually really funny. Yeah. And sometimes it felt genuine.

I could be wrong. Like maybe she was just doing that. She wanted to be nice, but it actually kind of felt genuine. So maybe it worked out more than the Nate one did. It definitely went better than the Nate one. Cause I thought I would be like, Nate would go, ah, we should have them on my podcast. But I've watched Nate's podcast a few times and he just kind of bullies the other two guys the whole time. And I was like, oh wait, is Nate like one of those funny guys? And he is really like Bergazzi is probably one of my favorite

guys going right now. But I'd be like, after the podcast, I'm not sure. Like, he's just sort of like, Hey, you're stupid. And no, Hey, you're stupid. And then it just, and then Nate gets guy's going right now but i'll be like after the podcast i'm not sure like he's just sort of like hey you're stupid and no hey you're stupid and then it's just and then nate gets some zingers in there but god nate's so funny i can't really get mad at him for being a bully but he feels a little bullyish which is totally opposite of early nate where you know he had the puka shell going right so although in the 80s guys that wore the puka shell, those were kind of like badass dudes. Believe it or not. Were the guys that wore the puka shells in the early 2000s not badass dudes?

I think that's exactly right. That's exactly right. I'm not sure. Scholars have argued this for years. But yeah, because I had a couple other things. I had some lines to even throw in there, and I didn't get to him because uh she was on a roll yeah yeah she just was going for it but no she's dating somebody guys so i appreciate people people checking in well i was confused because she was she told the person she was dating that she was

going to date on the show correct i was like oh whoa that's uh it's kind of interesting now i can't quite figure it out i think she had like like, yeah, I think, you know what? It's okay. I was all right, but I do appreciate a lot of people checking in. People wanted it. But I feel like we haven't talked. Anything else going on? Anybody have a kid or get married again or anything?

It feels like it's been forever. I missed you guys. No, no. I got a tractor. Really? Free tractor. Yeah. Start mowing the lawn, doing some yard work.

Free tractor? Yeah. Yeah, free tractor. I would never buy one. So probably not a great turn radius set on it, probably. Yeah, it came over, changed the oil. No, it doesn't have power steering, so it's kind of a pain in the ass. Oh, wow.

I think it's like a 2003, so not the newest model, but it beats the push mower. So we're testing it out. We're seeing. Just trying to embarrass them, trying to show up the neighbors and be like, look at this guy riding around my yard, but more stories later. That's fun. That's a fun toy.

We had an incredible amount of Dick Carter followup stories. I did not expect this. Uh, if you missed that episode, um, I don't think I was, I think it was just talking about it last week. The Dick Harder philosophy of defensive basketball, where the refs can't call everything.

And the reason I brought it up is that we've had some fouls. I think we've broken two records for the season of first quarter fouls called. And as I prep for the draft, I may have a whole new category where I just start saying, how good is this guy at falling down? Jalen Brunson in game five flopped so hard with fake face contact that he convinced himself that he was actually assaulted and then got the team to review something. And then a review, no one ever touched his face. No one ever touched his face. So I almost lost it the other night, No one ever touched his face. So I'm,

I almost lost it the other night, but I don't want to be that guy, but I'm going to be that guy at some point. The league has to stop letting God, like it just, if guys want to fall down, let them fall down. If you want to fall down around a screen. Okay.

And the other team has a two on one. Cause you're on the ground. Even if the screen was kind of illegal, it's there's so much towards the offense right now. I think you're just going to let guys fall down. Oh, you fell down during a box out? I didn't really see the push, but you're on the ground? I'm not calling it.

Oh, you got in front of a big who decided to set up on the elbow off a miss in transition but not a full fast break. They're setting up their half court, and you just stood in front of them and got run over because it happened. I think it happened in Dallas-Phoenix. It usually happens. It doesn't get called on time, but there's just so much falling down

that I think it's almost, if you're a college guy, you're like, hey, 6'6", can't shoot, moves all right, but falls down great. So good at falling down. Suri, it seems like you want to jump in here no i i it's off the point you made before about the jaylen brunson thing where he gets hit in the face but doesn't actually get hit in the face and then he immediately goes for the like review it review it he didn't get hit in the face and held his face for five minutes i think we should implement some sort of like nhl penalty box for that situation like if you're wrong you get put in timeout for two minutes because it's just absurd.

Like every time like a foul is put the right way, they do the hand signal thing. And then the coaches, they talk to the coach and they talk to their staff. And obviously they have video of it. So you don't need to do that. Like they're going to tell you if it's,

you know, you're going to know if it's. It's a competitive part of it though. It is, but I'm sorry I jumped you, but there is the competitive nature of any, any guy like at this level where something doesn't work out. And you're like, oh, I mean, it's the same thing as the out of bounds. Guys strip somebody else and then you're just like, hey, it's the other way.

And you're like, there's no way. I can't even believe you did this. But a big reason why these guys are even out there running around is that they're just never off. They're always on. But I love their being like Pat Beverly on the opening tip, if it went out of bounds, he would turn back to finish and be like, let's review it. We're like, we're four seconds into the fucking game, Pat.

We're four seconds in. Don't know that we want to burn it right now, bud. Did you see Marcus Smart after the game ceiling steal from Drew? He flailed backwards and he threw his hands up in the air. I understand why you're trying to sell the call.

There was a still shot going around on Twitter. I was dying last night looking at the picture. Yeah, it wasn't close. It was totally clean. It was a great play by Drew. It was a great risk. We already went over that in the open. I don't blame Smart for trying to figure out some way, but you get your shit taken from you.

Anyway, that was a lot of stuff there before we get to this dick harter story the other thing on the dick harter deal is uh apparently dick enright was the head coach of the football team at oregon when dick harter was the head coach of the basketball team and there were t-shirts during the 70s apparently that said if you want to get your dick in right, you got to get your dick hard turned. Oh, man. Yeah. So back to back. We're risque.

Nikki Glaser. We're making dick jokes here on the pod. Who knows what's going to happen next Tuesday? Yeah. Somebody also pointed out Dick Pound was a good one. Yeah. He was a swimming champer, lawyers, something like that. Yeah.

He's like the drug guy for the Olympics. Not taper, but sort of oversaw things. I don't know if it's USADA. Yeah, yeah, Dick Pound. What's up? Okay, all right. So let's tell another Dick Carter story from our guy Tyler63180. And the reason

I wanted to read this one too, Kyle, is that he said he grew up in the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont and spends his summers at Lake Willoughby in Westmore, Vermont. I, too, have spent time during the summer in Lake Willoughby. Very deep lake. Deep lake. Used to hike the mountain and canoe. And that's talking Vermont.

All right. So anyway, each summer between the ages of 10 and 18, I would attend a summer basketball camp run by the local basketball coaches. Harder was friends with two of the retired coaches who ran the camp, and he would always come by for a few hours one day. During the weekend, the week-long camp, he would run a defensive clinic during his time at the camp. It was never anything too complex, usually the importance of health defense,

and showing how each defender would be positioned while the ball rotated around each player on offense. Ball, you man, right? A big talking point for him. All right. By the way, still holds up today. It was awesome. Although looking back, I know I did not appreciate how cool it was to have a top level NBA assistant visit our tiny basketball camp in northern Vermont. It is actually amazing that this is where Dick Carter found an escape, I guess you would say. All right, so why are you reading this email? Here's why. One of my last years attending the camp,

Harder told us a story about coaching the 98 All-Star game. He was on first staff with the Pacers. He told us the winning staff would get a bonus. He goes, I can't remember the amount, maybe $10,000 if their team won. Apparently, Harder's wife had already spent the money. Again, I can't remember exactly what. Either new carpets or window drapes.

At halftime, the East was only up nine and Harder was stressed. He said he went over to Michael Jordan and told Jordan that he needed the bonus money from the win since his wife had already spent the cash. The East ended up winning by 20 and MJ was MVP in the tunnel after the game. Harder said MJ came up to him

and said, was that good enough for you, Dick? And of course it was. Harder was the best. All right. I may just do this one because we get this one all the time. And there are some things from this email that made me just sort of want to go and i i want everybody kind of to be involved so we might just

do this because i could do a whole thing on this but starting a podcast is the uh email title and you can hear kyle and steve their excitement about this at the end. All right, here we go. 25 years old, 5'10", 190. Former college athlete. Passes prime at this point, but still in decent shape. Why would you submit to the idea

that you're past your prime physically at 25 years old? I haven't. I still think there's some peak coming. Just something to think about. And that's for everybody listening right now. Not just this guy. Here's why I'm writing in.

My friends and I recently started a podcast together, not looking for free pub or anything, just real advice. There are five of us, which is a real challenge. No shit. Yeah. Wow.

Kyle, keep down, keep track, keep track of all your notes. And it's Rudy is like a, the hybrid producer behind the scenes on air guy, maybe better equipped for this than I am. We all grew up together. we have a great rapport i think it's translated really well to the podcast i also think hope it makes us different enough to catch on my instincts are no people aren't

gonna go wait there's five guys i'm in this is different It's five of them. All right. And by the way, I'm going to sound a little harsh here at times. You're going to need to hear this because there's other people that just either don't know and are giving you bad advice or they just love you so much

they give you bad advice or they love you so much they give you bad advice and tell you not to do it anymore. I'm just going to be a little bit more authentic with it here. Our podcast is sports with some humor and gambling.

No way. We talked about... Yep. God, Kyle might be meaner than I am. We talked about starting the pod for over a year, strategize and practice a few times before publishing our first episode.

So far, our greatest challenges have been developing a rhythm within the group that allows for witty banter, humor, and still lets people get their full takes off, finding an editing software that's easy, semi-affordable, and has all the features we need. One of our five is essentially a producer who sometimes chimes in while the other four of us

do the majority of the talking he's started having some problems with the editing okay you got anything on that you want to just answer that one now i don't know the answer to that one at all i mean you know kyle we use tools. It's probably a little complicated for the, for the beginner. I think I tinker. It's fine. Yeah. I mean, here's the thing. You could teach yourself how to do anything on YouTube.

That's how I taught myself. I use Photoshop. So like, I don't know, pick a, pick an, I mean, pick Adobe audition process, whatever, and just teach yourself if you really want to get good at it. Yeah. And I felt like he would have led with, we've got to, we've like, I think nobody's going to notice if, uh, it doesn't come out so great. Cause I think he would have led with, uh, to we like i think nobody's gonna notice if uh it doesn't come out so great because i think he would have led with uh we're getting some traction now but

we haven't heard that yet so i think it'd be okay to for the next couple weeks to just mess around with different things and it's okay if it doesn't work out well because i think it's probably just you guys listening anyway okay all right so all right so pro tools youtube videos learn how to do it that is that's how much what's that like 500 bucks for pro tools i think it's like seven if you want more plugins it's going to get a little more expensive but it's like a one-time deal you can pay by the month but it's annoying there are cheaper programs that'll correct a decent enough job logic's fine all right more importantly growing our audience we have social media accounts and do the breakout videos, teases, etc. Using the most efficient equipment that maximizes our sound.

We're balling on a budget right now, but we're definitely putting real time and effort into making this sound good. We have a bunch of fun together once a week to record. We're one episode a week for now, about one, one and a half hours an episode. Haven't worried about monetizing yet because we're still figuring out. That's good that you're not worried about monetizing it yet. That's great. We're still trying to figure out our brand and just trying to make it sound good. To be honest, we wanted to monetize down the road if we think we're going to.

No, to be totally honest, that's why you're doing this because you think, hey, I can fucking do it. I watch games. We're funny. We all like talking. Let's do this and have it be a career. That's what you really want to say, but you're apprehensive to say it in the email, which is totally fine, by the way. I'm going to be harsh and I'm going to be nice in this. And it's not specific to our guy that's emailing here because it's just a kind of covers everything for everybody.

But for now, we're just doing it. Literally any advice you have, some of the challenges, monetizing, anything else would be greatly appreciated. Multiple members of the team listen to the pod regularly and look at yours as a model of success. Okay, yeah, I'm older now. and look at yours as a model of success. Okay, yeah, I'm older now. And when I hear this, and I don't want you to take this personally here,

but I think there's a generational thing because the jobs are so different now, right? I've always talked about the line being longer and thinner. When I started, the line is shorter but wider today because of the path to being on. You can buy a computer program, a couple of microphones, and you and your buddy can be on the air by the end of the day today. When I started, you had to have somebody say, I want to hear you talk on our air

through a microphone and have people listen to it as you represent us. And for me, I got my start because they tricked me into a sales job and then put me on the air doing baseball. And again, I wasn't very good at it because I'd never done play by play, but I still, to get through as frustrating as that was trying to figure out, like, if I want to be on the air, how the hell am I going to get that first part of it? And it was such a roadblock to even, you know, there's plenty of people that probably wish to have, they gotten that one chance 20 years ago that their life would have been different. They could never get on the air and now they're not doing it. Maybe there's resent or whatever. Like, have I just gotten that break?

You know, maybe their careers are different. I think if you're older and you're me and then you look back to like what's going on now it's like you're on the air by the end of the day and then you're kind of like where's my check that my generation's always going to have a problem with that but the funny thing too is like this is not like elitist thing like i have famous friends who don't podcast that see what everybody's getting paid and then go, where, where can I start my podcast? I'm like, okay, but have you ever hosted anything before? Remember, I'm not just some guy that like, I don't know. It's not like my social media is insane, but I wasn't just some guy that were like, Hey, that guy's interesting. Let's give him a podcast. I was hosting shows every day from 2003 until 2017.

Every day, hosting radio shows, 2003 to 2017. So whatever your hours are of learning how to do this, that's part of it. And I think because the access to being on the air, there isn't that roadblock that so many people my age had that I don't want to, I don't know, maybe I'll just say it doesn't feel like it's as appreciated as much. It's just kind of like, hey, I'm on the air. Me and my buddies are doing a podcast.

We're doing a six months. Like where are checks? And it doesn't work that way is my point. So first of all, you got to figure out what it is about your podcast. Nobody else is listening. Why is anyone going to listen to this? Why is anyone going to listen to what you're doing? else is listening. Why is anyone going to listen to this? Why is anyone going to listen to what you're doing? When I have to write a script, the first thing I have to ask myself is like,

why would anyone watch this? What is interesting about it? What's different about it? Describe it in a sentence. What is the story that you're trying to tell? And if I can't do those things, I don't write that script. And on the other side of like, if I had no agent, no contacts, hadn't been in the air for 20 years, I don't write a script and go, Hey, who wants to buy this? Because no one wants to buy it because nobody knows who I am and nobody cares what I have to say. And I'm not saying that to be harsh. I'm saying it to tell you the truth, because I think the podcasting thing has fucked up a lot of people. And I'm not talking about just people that are getting started that are younger. I'm talking about, again, the famous people that I know that are like, wait, who got that check?

How much did this person get paid? I'm famous. I should have a podcast. And guess what happens? They do it for three months and they're like, this is fucking way harder than I thought it would be. I have to have a point. I have to have a segment. I can't just bullshit because I thought it'd be hilarious. I think about all the times too. And this relates to writing where, where you work, you go, Oh my God,

this place should be a TV show. This place is a TV show. Oh my God. We got that guy. He's over there. And then that guy does that. This would be, Oh my God,

we should, we got, this is a show. This is a show. Everybody thinks that everybody thinks that okay fine write it but what's the point of the show is there a point it's the same thing with podcasting you're hanging out with your buddies one guy's really funny one guy's loves gambling one guy's always getting into trouble one guy's got a bad relationship you're like hey this is a

podcast we're all hilarious we're all best friends we all like each other and then you do it and you go okay but why now? Because of that line that I talked about that was so wide now, you're competing with so many people that buy a microphone and a program and go, I'm going to do this. And by the way, there's the positive part. I love this. I can also think it screws people up because there's an entitlement, but I also love that it's even a possibility that you can be this breakout person.

You can be somebody that comes from almost no support and finds a lane and builds your own thing. It usually doesn't happen though by itself. You usually need your platform. Bill needed ESPN. I needed ESPN. Part of my take needed Barstool. Levitar needed ESPN. Colin needed ESPN, needs Fox. you know, Levitar needed ESPN, Colin needed ESPN, needs Fox. So all of us kind of needed somebody. So just to organically start it out of nowhere with no attachment to anything, not impossible, but it's pretty much impossible. So I would tell anyone when you're starting this, if the only reason you did it is because you were like, I want this as a career and I want to make money, your patience, you might have to be looking at like a four or five-year plan from that point on. And I think when people see the

headlines about the money, know how easy it is to once get on the air, there's a real entitlement that I'll hear with younger people being like, hey, how do I get this to break through? So I'd finish this way before I ask Kyle and Steve to jump in here. do I get this to break through? So I'd finish this way before I asked Kyle and Steve to jump in here. Back to the point, is this about, you know, Pac-12 football? Okay. All right. So now I have, now I have an idea. Hey, we all went to different Pac-12 schools. It's about Pac-12 football. We're going to go to like four games and rank. Okay. So now we've got some built in segment ideas. Okay. Now I kind of, and I know this is bullshit,

but like, man, when I was getting started at ESPN, I had this one executive. Yeah, it was Horowitz. And he would sit down the first time I met with him. And he was like,

what is Ryan Russillo? What is, what is a Ryan Russillo? I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? We're like the same age. He's like, I just ignored what he was like.

Well, I don't know like what was like well i don't know like what a ryan russo is i'm like i'm good at my fucking job and i'm like that's it why do i need to be something it was like well colin's like this and beatles like this and this is this as much as i hated that i got his point even though i personally thought it was fucking stupid but what is your podcast because if if you're just going to say, hey, I'm like, I'm just good at this. Most people are going to go, what? And that was my problem. I'm like, how do you not just get that I'm good at it? Got to figure out some sort of lane to live

in. Because then, all right, the MacTac12 example, maybe you link up with the school. Maybe you talk to the SID and say, hey, we've been doing this for a year plus. And that's the other thing is like, congrats on your six month mark for whoever's listening to this part of the podcast. Hey, we've been doing it six months. Do it three more years and then start thinking about it. Seriously. It doesn't happen as fast as you want it to. Nothing I've accomplished has ever happened as fast as I want it to.

Some shit is taking forever. All right. The rest of the world is not on your schedule. So summarize, you're starting a podcast and nobody knows who you are. Figure out what the thing is. Figure why is, why is there a chance? If I hear a one sentence synopsis of what you're doing, what would it be that what you're doing actually gets me to say, oh, okay. All right. That's interesting. It's almost impossible to do it on your own. If you do come up with a thing, back to my Pac-12 example, call the schools, call the SIDs, say, hey, we're doing this, but don't call them after three episodes. Call them after doing a year. Maybe ask if you can do a live broadcast, ask if you can get credential just to be around it. Doesn't mean you have to start asking awesome

questions, but maybe that SID gets you a better guest. And then you get that athlete from say Utah, he comes on, right? And now the Utah blogs are talking about Utah football and they're linking to your podcast because the quarterback went on your podcast because you started some kind of relationship with somebody. All right. You have to be thinking about stuff that way all the time, especially when you're starting your own. I was relentless. I called every team. I called everybody. I used to book the radio show. I mean, it was obsessive, but that's the other thing. Do you really want to do this or do you want all the cool shit that comes with supposedly doing it? Because you're going to learn, especially if it's five guys, there's going to be a couple

of guys that are like, eh, I kind of can't do this all the time. And a lot of dudes out there are doing the hobby podcast, wondering why it's not taking off when they have other real world, real life stuff going on that makes it really hard to do the other thing. And for me, I just didn't give a shit about anything else and only did the radio thing. Not saying you have to do it that way, but that's also another very difficult dance that you're going to have to play. All right. So I made that one really long on purpose, but I also love, like I said, the positive part of this is that this is even possible. Okay. This whole concept impossible when I like, you didn't even think this way.

I love that people are thinking this way, but I think everybody needs to be a little bit more realistic. Yeah, I think, you know, the hobby podcast thing is like, the thing about it is sometimes it does work, right? And sometimes you hear the story. It's like, yeah, I don't know. We were just deciding we actually had to, like, get a studio. And, like, you know, we actually had to get our shit together because it was taking off. Like, that does happen. And there's like probably what a hundred million podcasts now or more than that. Right. Wasn't it like 900? I don't know. I think there's like,

I think I heard like 900 million last year just in the world. So, I mean, that's still, but, um, so there are China, including China. I think we're including China there. Um, I think so just because of that sheer number, it works out enough. So yeah, like that's a, that's a fun dream to have. I'd say like, I listened in my free time and listen to like, you know, comedian podcasts or news and stuff like that. Just like where people are kind of kicking around having a good time. And it seems like if you're not a part of these networks that acquire these little niche podcasts and stuff. And if you're not in that, I think what you have to do is you end up having to go on other people's podcasts or having other people on yours. And I think what's hard about yours specifically is that there's five of you.

And I think to add one more person into that would be insane. But I think when you're on that like lower level, you have to basically get other people that have a podcast with 5,000 Twitter followers and hope that you can steal just a couple listeners. I like what you're doing here. So I just think it's going to be hard to do that when you're on that grassroots level, when you got five people already talking and you want to add one or two more. So I'd maybe try to find a way to have people rotate in and out of that. If you could, you know, if you're going to try to go that route of growing it organically. Yeah, I would agree. Five is too many. You also, Ron, you kind of alluded to this. You just have to, it can't be, you have to just like doing it first it first. You have, it has to be a hobby. It has to be,

that's the first thing it has to be. And if you don't like doing it, then you probably shouldn't do it long-term. You're probably not going to wait it out until it ever becomes successful. So you just have to like doing it, even if it isn't successful, even if it takes your, if you're, you're doing a hundred episodes before any, you get like, you know, I don't know, a thousand listens or whatever it is. Um, but you just have to keep doing it because you said that's how you get better. But here's the thing. There are famous people, and Ron, you alluded to this too, who have audiences who have even been on the air before,

who are like, yeah, I'll start a podcast. And they bomb because it's just hard. You need an idea. You need something that sets you apart from everybody else. I'm going to be honest. I know you were trying not to be too harsh, the whole like yeah we're five guys we think we have good chemistry like the amount of times that me and my friends were like oh yeah we should just like put a microphone in front of us while we're sitting around watching games like people would

watch this like every friend group says that about their friend group so it's usually not true like and and here's the thing too is like dudes just sitting around chatting also isn't that entertaining because there's a lot of inside jokes and bullshit. Like you have to become a broadcaster like Ryan. You do segments and you know when you're going too long and you know you're not making the right point that you want to make. Not everybody has those instincts. Not everybody knows that. And the only reason you get good at it is by doing it and listening to other people.

So I would just say you got to keep doing it and do not. It's got to be a hobby. It really has to be a hobby until it isn't and kyle to your point i think early on in podcasting like it was okay to come out of nowhere and just start something and be on your own and like get discovered and like get you build an audience and it's fine i don't know if it's true anymore i just don't i think i think you kind of have to be a part of a thing um you have to get you have to help with promotion you know not saying it's like the ringer or someplace, but there are places that scoop up pods. But those pods have also been around for probably years

and have done hundreds of episodes. And they're trying to do the grind too. So they're already ahead of you. So, I mean, at the end of the day, you have to love it. And if you don't love it, it's never going to work out. And then work your ass off and see where you get. But, you know, like for me specifically, when I did the pod with Scal,

that was a live and a pod thing. So it was a little confusing. And there are a million reasons it didn't work out. But I kept thinking every day, like, okay, there are a million NBA pods. What is setting us apart? So I would try different things, try doing different stuff. And even that didn't end up working out. And there's a million reasons why it didn't.

But it's just fucking hard, man. It's really fucking hard. And you have to put the work in. And hopefully, somebody discovers you. Hopefully, you can build an audience hopefully hopefully you can you know find somebody who is in power who kind of says hey i think this is good i like this and then they start giving you help and giving you pointers and then maybe can go on your pod and you can do some cross-pollination there but first and foremost has to be a hobby and you have to love it yeah look i i don't want

to be discouraging and maybe this was discouraging but i just don't like people that are delusional and i'm not even speaking specifically to the emailer the podcasting thing is so unimpressive right it speaks to sports broadcasting in general why no one's ever taking our side and more and more people don't like the media uh which i totally get i'm you know whatever because what we do on the surface doesn't really seem that impressive you're like oh wait you just watch games and then you talk about it and sometimes i don't even think it's that impressive to be honest with you you know i'm not super impressed with anything i've accomplished and i've talked to people about this but there is a level of skill that because

podcasting is so like you can reach it and touch it and you're like that's all you have to do you know like when i was trying to write when i first was getting into that you know i'd read different stuff about it and there was this one writer i think it was david mamet was like who would ever just pick up a guitar without any lessons and that's what somebody trying to write who's never written before would try to do but like writing feels like well wait i can just write i can but if i don't write for a while and then i'll try to go back to it and mess with things, I'll look at sentences the next day going, what the hell was that? Like, that was awful. And screenwriting is different than just straight up writing, writing.

But you'll go, oh, you know, and you're almost out of practice. Like, I wish I were better at it. I wish there were times where I felt like I would have a few lines where I'm like, that's so amazing. That was great. that's so amazing. That was great. But it's something that anybody can just sit down and do and open up their laptop and feel like, Hey, I'm writing where it's a little different than just saying you expect to pick up a guitar and start playing a song. Like nobody would think that. So not saying like standing by my microphone and recapping last night's game is the same as picking up a guitar with never taking any lessons, but there is some similarity to,

well, I can just do this the same way someone who would want to write for the first time could be like, well, I could just figure this out. way someone who would want to write for the first time could be like, well, I could just figure this out. And you're like, chances are, you're not going to just figure it out. Um, so there you go. Look, man, uh, it's awesome that you can do this because like I said, it didn't exist. It didn't exist when I started, but because it exists, I think there are a lot of, and I just talked to so many people about it. That'll just go like, well, hey, I should do that. And I'm not talking about somebody that's never been on the air, people that are on the air. And then after a couple, like that used to be the joke on the radio show, guys would fill in on the radio show. And then it'd be day three and they would be like, holy shit, I can't believe you do this every single day. Podcasting is way easier than that was. And this still has its moments where you go, all right, what do you have to say today? What do you

have to say? And I'm not a great example because I had all the years of ESPN already built into this stuff. But to just buy the mics, buy the software and say, let's go, you got to put the hours into it. You really have to put it in and then figure the software and say, let's go. And you got to put the hours into it. You really have to put it in and then figure out who you are, figure out your identity before you even think about getting paid. And I think the headlines get people thinking that like, there's just these companies out there be like, we love to pay for podcasts. We don't care if anybody's listening to them. And that's not really how it works. Yeah. I think the two things that I would say positive to end on is a, the nice thing is this podcast you're doing doesn't have to keep the lights on.

The stakes are low. And two, you're so early on into it that all the learning you're doing could be what you make it. You still have so much to like, to learn and observe that you can get as much out of these early ones as you can, because there's still so much you should just do shit. Yeah, right. Exactly. Kyle, just come up with ideas different segments look at segments on a tv show that you think good think of something that's terrible you know you've got to hope that one of those guys out of that group has some creative part to him that's like all right are we just talking for 40 minutes are we trying some different things i mean shit go out on the street do fake interviews with people in front of a game you know like are the orioles in town and you don't like the Orioles. All right. Interview Orioles fans that you see and ask them questions. You know what I mean? Like, again, none of this is brand new. Most stuff is some way of tweaking something else. It's already existed. Then you have people that just straight up rip off shit from everybody else. But figure out what you are before you start thinking about money and get better at it.

Because you keep doing it consistently enough. It's amazing. Once you keep doing something long enough, you actually do get better. Thanks to Steve and Kyle as always. Ryan Russillo Podcast, Ringer, Spotify, Sundays with Bill. We could have an all-timer on that one. But you know what? Even if we don't, it'll still be pretty good.

So please subscribe and we'll talk to you on this podcast next Tuesday. Thank you.