The Ryen Russillo Podcast - James Harden to Brooklyn With Bill Simmons and Jackie MacMullan

Episode Date: January 13, 2021

Russillo is joined by Bill Simmons and Jackie MacMullan to discuss the Houston Rockets trading James Harden to the Brooklyn Nets, the Pacers trading Victor Oladipo to the Rockets for Caris LeVert, how the new Brooklyn team will mesh together, a plethora of pick swaps and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

it's an emergency edition of the ryan rusillo podcast james hart has been traded with brooklyn nets houston gets oladipo dante exum still holding out hope kuru's unprotected picks 22, 24, 26, a swap in 21 cares 23, 25, 27. The Cleveland pick from Milwaukee in 2023, Brooklyn gets Harden. Cleveland gets Jared Allen, Tayshaun Prince, who actually has 12, 13 million remaining next two years. And so now we're looking at a Nets team with the rant Kyrie Irving, we think, and James Harden. So to break it all down with Jack McMullen and Bill Simmons, an emergency edition of the Ryan Rosillo podcast. Emergency pod right here on the Ryan Rosillo feed. We have Jack McMullen who's going to join us here and Bill Simmons.

And this is incredible because we have breaking news. Finally, Harden has been traded. But this is a weird one, depending on where you were at and who you were talking to throughout this day because there's momentum that it was Harden to Philly there are reports it's Harden to Philly maybe it's to Brooklyn there are people around the league Bill Jackie texting kind of going look it sounds like it's Philly it sounds like it's done and then within an hour it was nope it's done it's the Brooklyn Nets so um let's start with you Jackie because I know you're working on a bunch of stuff, but the reaction to this thing that we all thought could happen at some point,

but I think there was a real last-minute switch here with Brooklyn. Yeah, and I always thought, Ryan, from the very, very beginning, it would be Brooklyn. But then when Dinwiddie went down, I thought that killed it because Spencer Dinwiddie, I feel terrible that he got hurt, but it probably saved him and kept him in Brooklyn, truthfully, because I think he was originally part of the deal. I think the Nets always wanted James Harden, and I think Spencer Dinwiddie would have been part of that package if he were healthy. So that's just a little twist to it all.

We know how much Darryl loves Harden. loves Harden. But I think Harden is a bit of a hard sell right now for someone that hasn't spent as many years and as much time with him as, as more. He has, if I'm doc rivers and I got this thing going and, and beats playing great. And, you know, Simmons's numbers aren't, they're not video game numbers, but I always just look at him on the defensive end of the floor and think he's worth it. So I, he ended up where I thought he was going to end up.

That's what I'm going to say. All right, Bill, help us understand the Philly part of this, because, you know, you've been kind of hinting at this, and you and I were talking a little bit earlier today. So help us understand kind of what happened here and maybe how it fell apart. Yeah, I would disagree with Jack. I thought it was Brooklyn initially.

Then you think it was, oh, Brooklyn's just being used because they really want to do the deal with Philly. But then when all the Kyrie stuff happened starting last week, to me, that was going to take Brooklyn off the table because you're trying to play this out. And I don't think we need to go deep into the Kyrie thing because I think it's complicated and maybe we don't know all the facts, but it just didn't seem like the right time to then

make this franchise altering trade for a superstar. I heard it was Philly. I heard last night it was headed toward Philly. I had heard Simmons and Maxie, but then after the trade found out that apparently Maxie was, was like kind of a untouchable for, for Philly. They're like, we're not putting in Simmons and Maxie there. They have a thigh ball. So it was Simmons thigh ball.

And then they're kind of going back and forth on the picks. And I honestly think Philly might've gotten too cute. If they, the question is, did they want hardened or were they trying to get hardened at a discount? Cause they did in a hundred percent one hardened. And that's the thing. If you're haggling over a one extra pick swap, whatever it To me, it's like, you just do it. Like if you really want the guy, Brooklyn clearly really wanted the guy. And then it gets to the point, what four pick swaps and three first, the first pick swap is bogus. Cause it's this year.

Houston's not going to have a, I love that. I love it. Yeah. That's stupid. They got Cleveland's first rounder. That is actually from Milwaukee next year. That's going to be probably a useless pick too, but it's still a lot of picks.

And then the Oladipo piece. So I think for what Harden looked like last night, remember, we're still in that. We're texting last night like, oh my God, this guy, he's gaining weight. He's not playing hard anymore. He sabotaged his teammates after. So to get this much for that guy is crazy to me.

What do you think, Priscilla? Look, I was hate-watching Houston all season because it was so bad, I actually enjoyed it. And I didn't even allow myself to get excited enough for Peek Boogie Cousins to be back because early on, and Bill and I have always joked about this, I think we both

watched way too many Sacramento games over the last decade because they always seem to be on some weird window by themselves. They used to always have that weird late one on the East Coast where I'd be in Connecticut in the basement at 1 a.m. watching the fourth quarter of a Sacramento game. And I always felt like I was kind of like, yeah, I know what Boogie does statistically, but it doesn't really make a ton of sense.

So then when you added it all together, where Boogie Cousins is the one that sounds responsible, where he looks like the leader going, you know, Harden's completely disrespecting us. I cannot emphasize this enough. I don't care what Harden's traditional stats were this year. He was so bad in those in-between moments where he would rotate bad.

He wouldn't even bother. If he could go over or under a screen, he would take the third option where it was like, I'm not even going to do any of those things. I'm just going to do this. Baseline cuts behind him, forget it. Transition, he would never get back. And he threw a pass to John Wall last night

where he got stuck and picked up his dribble at the top of the key, and he got mad that Wall didn't release to, like, come out and then let Harden reset. So then Harden just chucked it towards the half-court line. Yeah, it looked like he was throwing it out of bounds. He was doing it to, like, make Wall move, and then, like, Wall looked at him like,

what are you doing? And then Harden pouted and walked off to the side. So if Daryl truly wanted him, and he worked with the guy for years, and I wonder if Daryl's almost so statistically blinded by how efficient he was, which again, I think is a little fraudulent. Harden's really great,

but statistically who he's been, I think it's a little misleading because everything is around him. Every single decision by this franchise is about him getting buckets as good as he is. So when I watch this version of him, I know how the league works. I know it's about adding stars, Jackie. But I gotta tell you, it was so gross for three weeks. And the way he

actually physically looks, I don't know what I'm getting. Like, I'm a little worried about it. Well, and think of all the bodies left in his wake. Seriously, right? I mean, Karis LeVert, he didn't want to go anywhere. John Wall, all these guys,

everybody, you know, John Wall was traded. They made that trade in part because Harden and Westbrook were done. Like all these things that have happened that James Harden- Chris Paul. Yeah, all these things.

Dwight Howard. Right. I mean, we can list them all. Chris Paul. Yeah. All these things. Right. I mean, we can list them all. Kevin McHale. Oh, wow. There you go. Yeah. Kevin McHale.

Clint Capella. Clint Capella. Clint. Jeff Green. Right. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going.

And that's sort of my point. So we were on what? I don't know. It was a couple of weeks ago, Bill. We were talking with Ryan and about Harden in the Celtics, which I don't think any of us ever felt was really going to happen. You don't think they wanted him, right, Jackie? They kicked the tires on it, though. No, Danny Ainge always is intrigued by talent.

This is what I said on that pod a couple weeks ago. He just – you don't get a chance at scores like Harden very often. But remember, they're just coming off Kyrie when a transcendent talent isn't quite enough because other things need to be correct. And so I think in the end, no, I don't think they were willing. They weren't going to give up Jalen Brown for him. And I would give up Jalen.

Well, the greatest thing that happened was Jalen comes out of the gate and he's just kicking ass. Boy, does he ever. Yeah, he does ever. I mean, I said this on the pod with Priscilla yesterday. I think they should just come out and be like, we're not trading Brown and Tatum.

These are our two guys. We are building around them the same way we build around Bird, McKayla, and Parrish once upon a time. Like, this is our team. Like, stop throwing them in trade rumors.

They won't do that. But anyway, I interrupted you. Well, that's right. That's half the fun of pods is because I think also too, they just think Kemba, they really think Kemba

is going to be okay. Now they may be blowing smoke, but they really do Kemba is going to be okay. Now they, they may be blowing smoke, but they really do. So then you have those three and you live or die with that. And you know what? You'll be able to sleep at night living with those three. Right. And I think that matters at this moment for that franchise. Well, and what they mean off the court too. Like I think that matters in this day and age,

these three guys that are going to be ambassadors on and off the court and could really affect change in the city and in the state. I think that matters. You know, if Jalen Brown was picked player or person of the year from the Boston Globe, the Boston Globe picked like three game changers for social activism and Jalen Brown was one of them. Right. So Boston

was out. I think it was down to these two teams. I don't think Denver could figure out any sort of scenario. Portland too risky. They didn't guarantee them in title anyway. And I think with Philly, I think Philly just felt like this is, we're going to be able to get this guy at 75 cents in the dollar. Right. The stuff with Harden, you know, Jackie, you were, where were you working in 2004? Was that Sports Illustrated or were you ESPN at that point?

I was back at the Globe. Okay. Back at the Globe. So did you catch any Vince Carter games during that 20 game stretch when he just quit? Yeah, that was bad. And he was playing and he was out there as like zombie Vince Carter, basically. Right. And such a blemish too on an otherwise great career. Too bad.

And he went to the Nets and he immediately started averaging 27, 28 a game again. And it's a real you look at it even on basketball reference and you're like, man, that guy really tanked on his team. That's what's wrong with the league, though. That's what's wrong with the league. James Harden gets to go where he wanted to go. There's something

wrong when that happens. When you're behaving the way you behave. The Harden thing, to me, was worse than the Vince thing. I actually think it was way worse, Bill. It wasn't like Vince was in Toronto for five years saying, hey, trade for this guy. Actually

get him out of here. No, trade for this guy. No, get him out of here. The amount of assets they gave up for Westbrook where Paul ended up becoming the more valuable asset just 12 months later. That magic trick is incredible. They did everything for Harden. Harden is a very good offensive player. Statistically, he's great,

but they set up everything, system and roster and the way that they change the culture because they just don't want to upset these guys and then they still are pissed off and they decide they want out with two years left on the contract. So, yeah, I mean, I'm going to be honest. Like when Vegas has Brooklyn go from fourth to second best odds to win the title.

Can we see how the basketball part of this fits when we already have an MIA guy in Kyrie on top of it all? Like there's a there's a lot of assuming going on here from a basketball standpoint that now everybody's just going to start rolling in Brooklyn for the next 55 games. Yeah, thank goodness I got rid of that Jared Allen, huh? That real problem. He's good, yeah. No kidding. What is Cleveland doing, by the way?

Are they just trying to get every available center known to man on their roster? Yeah, that was weird. That made me think maybe they're planning on shopping Drummond. Drummond's playing great. Drummond's been really good. They might be a little down on the 17 shots a game for Andre Drummond, though. I understand.

Back to the Harden thing for one. The difference, I think, between Harden and Vince, when Vince was doing it, the basketball wasn't covered the way it is now. We didn't have any social media. We had League Pass. We had dickheads like me on the internet who were going to make fun of you if you started tanking games. That's about it.

And make every college kid think they can do what you do. I still hold you responsible. I know. I know you hold me responsible. I hold you responsible for Carl Malone's MVP, so that's where we're even. But in 2021, to do what Harden was doing, to what he did

last night against the Lakers, the league's signature team, and I'm not sure LeBron what Harden was doing, like to what he did last night against the Lakers, the league signature team. And I'm not sure LeBron loves Harden. So I think LeBron was really enjoying it and was like, Hey, let's put Harden in a pick and roll. And he's like, he's,

he's doing things to it. But I mean, how about that shot in the corner where the guy from the bench was like, Hey, yeah, I think it was Dennis who was like, Hey, I'll bet you a hundred bucks.

And he's like, yeah, it turns around. Like, think about how much they don't give a shit about your team if that's the stuff they're doing in an nba game it's so true that was so birdlike though wasn't it he was like it's embarrassing balls in the air he's like you owe me whatever oh i mean so you know if you're gonna look to like defend harden which is hard i we don't know how awful of an owner for, for Tita is. He's definitely has the reputation in the league. It's like, if you're going to pick, all right, who are your craziest loose cannon owners in the league? He would be one of the top three people mentioned. We don't know what the Harden relationship was. We don't

know what promises were made. I've also heard that Harden was having a lot of issues the last like 10, 12 days with all this stuff. He was really genuinely unhappy. The pandemic ties into some of that. And you know, that's why like he gained weight over the last week. And it's like when somebody is sometimes they're unhappy, they eat. So I don't know what was going on with him mentally, but last night was the night. I think we all realized this is not sustainable. They can't put him out on a basketball court again. Jackie, that's only happened a couple times in NBA history that I can remember thinking, like, they literally can't play this guy anymore. Yeah, and I don't like it, you know?

And to me, it flies in the face of everything that's like, you know, say what you want about LeBron James switching teams. He always waited until he was a free agent. He never held a franchise hostage. He waited until his contract was up and he moved. And even with Anthony Davis, I think that was done maybe near the end, not so much, but Anthony Davis gave it a good go in New Orleans. I mean, you know, it's hard to be too angry at Anthony Davis for finally saying, hey, I'd like to move on. But this is just, you know, because he hasn't earned the right to behave this way, in my opinion.

You know, you were talking about the stats, Ryan, and you're so right, because when we talk about clutch stats, when the game's on the line, when it really matters, where does Harden fit in there? In playoff stats, when the game's on the line, he fades. I mean, the one game I can't get out of my head, and I was there as a spectator. I was with my family. It was Christmastime. Houston was at the Boston Garden. I was with my family. It was Christmas time. Houston was at the Boston garden. You probably remember this game. Yeah. And, and they're the Celtics are

losing. They're not going to win the game. And then Marcus smart decides to like mess with, I know I'm allowed to swear on podcasts, but I still can't do it yet. If I kid, I would use the F word just now. And he's going to mess with James Harden and he convinces James Harden. He literally goads him into back-to-back offensive fouls. On the inbound, right? Remember that? You, Ryan, you know this. I'm looking at going, how would you ever, I'm just thinking,

how would you ever build your franchise around a guy like that? It never left my mind. Never. Ryan, maybe this is the sneaky part of this trade. You have this guy who's an incredible stats guy who basically for the first 44 minutes of a game is an all-time great,

but where he gets suspected is the last four minutes and in playoff situation. Now on a team where he doesn't have to be the guy in the last four minutes. That's the whole point. He's got Kevin Durant. No, I'm not saying this won't work. But I just...

I got to know where his head's at. That's what I'm, that's what I'm worried. Don't we want to know that? But you know what, Jack, let's actually, I'm glad you brought it up because we kind of went around it. You're better equipped to deal with this than Bill and I ever could be because you know, you're around the Celtics so much. You, you understand this. Jack is the league psychologist. She knows more about this stuff than anybody.

What would you do for the league? Like, help us understand the Kyrie part of it without just being a bunch of jerks on podcasts that can't figure out how anyone can do this. Well, so I will tell you this. I was thinking about all the conversations I've had with Kyrie through the years. One of them I had, I don't know, two years ago.

We got into an argument about, you know, something. And he's like, well, there shouldn't be an NBA draft. Players should be able to go wherever they want to go. We're not, you know, someone's property. And I'm like, yeah, you are, dude. That's the way it works. That's why you get paid all these millions. And so I really think in Kyrie's mind, I think the effects of the Capitol, I think the effects of the Jacob Blake shooting, I genuinely believe those things affected him.

They bothered him. He felt like this. We are not putting importance where it belongs. These things are more important. I really believe that now. And I would you know what? I would have been OK with that. And if you said, you know what, I just right now, if you're if you're making a protest or you need that mental, whatever, I would be on board with that. The problem is if that's your message, no one knows it because you haven't said that first of all. And second of all, now you're at a birthday party with your sister and maybe someone's saying, well, that's to get himself to mentally heal or whatever. But the, we can't ignore optics. We just can't. And if the nets, if I'm the nets, I'm like, what are you doing? And you've got to find him. And there's got to be repercussions because if you don't make repercussions,

then the rest of the team is like, you just took on James Harden. Are you going to have repercussions for him? So I, you know, I want to understand Kyrie and where he's coming from. Obviously, I have not spoken with him or anybody close to him because I don't even know who that is anymore. Was there somebody that you felt like was close to him before, like when he was in Boston, Jackie? Well, one of the guys, you know, Robin that used to train him, Robin, I felt like was someone that could tell him they worked really well together. They worked really hard together. And I don't know Robin Pound. I don't know why. And I don't know Robin Pound.

I don't know why he, I don't know why they, I think it was Robin's decision to move on. I don't know why he decided to do that. But he was one of the guys that I knew that could say to Kyrie, like, cut it out. You're being a jerk, you know? Like, come on, man. This is bad.

Don't do this, you know? And I don't know who that person is. Everything Jackie laid out makes a ton of sense, right? If the Capitol and Jacob Blake and some other stuff affected Kyrie, Everything Jackie laid out makes a ton of sense, right? If the Capitol and Jacob Blake and some other stuff affected Kyrie, and he's like, I don't want to play basketball right now. I'm going to take a break. You take a leave of absence from your team.

You tell your coach. You tell the organization. I think what's missing with him and what was definitely missing from him from the experience I had from following him for two years in Boston is he never understood cause and effect. He never He never understood. Like if I say this publicly, people will now remember this. If, if I act this way on a Friday and then on a Saturday, I'm doing a one 80 from that. I'm saying this instead, that would become a new story. People follow the team every day on message boards. They follow them on podcasts and blogs and internet sites. And when I say things, when I do things, those things get dissected. So how I message those things, I need, maybe need to be more careful. He just doesn't understand that.

And I think we saw it last week. Or he doesn't care. Or he doesn't care. One or the other. And we saw it last week. He didn't tell Steve Nash, I'm not going to play. If you're in a team or you could be an eighth grade team, you could be my daughter's club soccer team, a high school team, a college team. You still have to communicate with the people who run the team. And he just seems like he feels like, it seems like he feels like he could just make up his own rules.

I'm not saying what happened last week wasn't 100% genuine to him, but he still doesn't understand the concept of team and cause and effect. And I wonder, part of this, Russo, with the Harden trade is, are the Nets thinking we might not have Kyrie this year and we don't want to waste year two of Durant? We have to contend. This isn't salvageable the way it is. We got to go all in on this.

Okay, well, this is the part that's now been happening for years. And I remember first talking about this going, you really look at the math on these these second half of the first round picks they're they're totally overvalued like everybody's freaking out about this role player like oh i need a first i need a first and it was hard to get them because it was kind of fun to tell your fan base like oh we have two firsts this year it's like oh cool 26 and 29 you know and like you're not even gonna you've already declined the third year option on the 29th pick before you even drafted him and so whenever whenever we started to talk about that and it's weird because a lot like the league overnight has turned into a three-point barrage the league

overnight decided i guess we don't care about first round picks at all anymore so on paper like the pieces coming out like okay you ended up with lavert you ended up with exum who i couldn't believe was nine million think about that he had a nine million dollar a year you just can't stay healthy that guy he just can't although i love him in this system i'm just kidding um and kurutsu's you know a couple million expiring as well so you've got it you've got expirings you get to make your decision on oladipo who i actually believe in still from a health standpoint but bill and i've been arguing about like did he i have five i have five minutes of Oladipo content for both of you. Ready later.

Because I do think he's healthy. I do hold out hope, but I don't know that I want to argue with Bill on the point because we both are watching at the same time. I want to ask you this, Ryan. Straight up, if you had a choice between Karras, Levert, and Oladipo right now, which one would you take? You guys are going to kill me for this,

but I'd still stay with Oladipo. Okay. And that's with LaVert under contract. Yeah, he's locked up. I was going to say. As a score at around $18 million a year, the two years after this, that's not bad. And look, he can get buckets.

He has a little... I feel like D'Angelo Russell hypnotized Dinwiddie and Karis LaVert and was like, this is the way you want to play. Like, I'm a little afraid. So, you know what? Why don't we do this? I feel like D'Angelo Russell hypnotized Dinwiddie and Karis LeVert and was like, this is the way you want to play. I'm a little afraid. So you know what? Why don't we do this?

Bill, give me your Oladipo. Then I have to talk about all these picks because I think this is a really important part of this because it's another one of these more recent last couple of years trades where it's like, all right, can I give you 12 picks? And people are like, yeah, fine, you can have 12 because we're talking about on paper eight picks even though it's really only seven. I think we should do the picks things now.

It's four pick swaps, but the one this year is nullified because it's not going to come into play. It's 22, 24, 26, all unprotected. It's 23, 25, 27 swaps. It's the 23 Cleveland pick that's the Milwaukee pick. The scary thing about this is if you're the Nets, guess who's under contract for the next two years? It's Harden for one more year after this.

It's Durant and Kyrie for two more years. You're talking about picks, three or four of these picks, when all of these guys, with the way this league works, they could be gone. I'm telling you, there are going to be picks that happen six, seven years from now where the next LeBron James is going to go because he was part of a salary dump for David Nwaba.

Dude, it happened. It happened with Tatum and Brown. It did. 16 and 17. That was from a trade from three years before. Let's see, who was it? Oh, and it was the Brooklyn Nets. Absolutely. Right. So, I just thought coming out of that, teams would be a little more careful with the picks way on down the road. If I'm a Nets fan that teams would be a little more careful with the

picks way on down the road. If I'm a Nets fan, first of all, I'd be asking myself, how am I a Nets fan? Secondly, I would be asking, I'm not, I don't care about the stuff the next couple of years, but once we get into 2024 and beyond, and I am now back in this KG Pierce situation again, potentially, where I've just watched my house burn down, and now we built the house up again, and now I'm watching the construction guy smoking next to the house where all the leaves are, and I'm like, hey, man, this house burned. That's how I would feel.

I don't think this guaranteed them a title, which is the other piece of this. The Anthony Davis trade, they gave up an incredible amount for him. Probably the biggest haul anybody's given up in a trade. And you still do it. And you do it again. You do it every time. Because they won the title. I don't know if this guarantees the title for them.

Also, Anthony Davis was in his prime and we hadn't seen the best of Anthony Davis yet, and we all knew that. Anthony Davis was hungry to win a championship. He was in perfect shape. And we all knew that Anthony Davis was hungry to win a championship. He was in perfect shape and he was a willing sidekick to LeBron. So, and what I mean by that is Anthony Davis could be the closer for sure. Anthony Davis could have been an MVP candidate, but he was going to be okay with whatever LeBron wanted. So those are all the differences between him and James Hart.

it. So those are all the differences between him and James Harden. Well, and the other pieces, they were aligned from a clutch standpoint, right? Of course, they were aligned from a big brother, little brother standpoint, the Harden thing, my fear with trading for Harden, and this is, I was comfortable with the Celtics not doing it, but my fear with anyone trading for him is it reminded me of 2006 when Iverson was getting shopped. And it seemed like Boston had a chance. Remember, it was going to be Al Jefferson, two future picks, all that stuff. And I wanted them to do it.

I'm like, this guy's a star. You always do the three quarters for a dollar trade. But the piece we missed was that Iverson had two years left of being a star because of the way he lived his life and the conditioning, the practice stuff. Well, how hard he played in his stature, too, you know, or lack of stature. So my question with Harden would, how many real prime years does Harden have left considering the way he lives his life, the way he looked last night? I don't know.

Is that somebody who's going to be playing until his late 30s? That's the part of this that I've always wondered is that when you've had a lifestyle, and I think this is almost a human nature thing but when you've had a basketball lifestyle where every single thing has been catered around you and this is kind of the way you have to do it now like think about the celtics even with kairi back when he missed 2018 in game seven he had the deviated septum thing but a lot of people around it were like wait you couldn't find a way to you know show up for game seven against the calves it just looks bad and then i was defending him at the time not knowing any better i'm like no no you know and you know issues and maybe it was jack you know maybe it was the whole deal is age made the joke about hey

he's worried about he's not going to look good enough so he doesn't want to show up he doesn't want to be seen in public but it sounded really bad but guess what the celtics were cool with it and maybe it was true okay so i'm not even calling them out but what you do as an organization is you constantly enable and you defend because you're so worried about these guys wanting to bounce even when they're under contract, nevermind when they're up as free agents. So you were doing everything the same way Oklahoma city did it with Westbrook. Like you can't even really get mad at Oklahoma, it's the home of city because they were afraid they were going to lose them to LA. And then he signs their extension and they're so excited. And now he's one of the

least tradable players in the league. And, you know, Houston did it with Harden. And yet he got traded. Yeah, for the only other guy that's like the least tradable guy in the league and wall. But you do all of these things. And I wonder if Harden, and I would just say my guess would be no. But can you sit him down if you're Nash? You'd hope so if you were Durant. But we just tried it with Westbrook.

Kyrie is a complete X factor in this. I have no idea because on Tuesday he's going to say it's awesome and on Wednesday he's going to say I want more shots. Can Harden be reprogrammed as a player? Does he sit down and go, you know what, I've gotten all these numbers, I've gotten an MVP, and it just hasn't really worked out. Let's figure this out because he's a great enough shooter and a passer to be able to probably work with anybody. That's why Golden State was actually still interested in him as a player,

because there are versions of him that are incredible, but night in and night out, especially in the playoffs. I don't know if I would believe him if he would tell me the answers I want to hear because everything has been catered to him a style that I wonder if these habits are even breakable for him anymore as an offensive player. That was the sleeping giant of this whole heart and sweepstakes was Golden State. And I don't think they were in it. But if they had decided

to get into it. I heard he he was not he and Durant are close and Durant wanted to leave there. So I think there was some communication about

there was some Steve Kerr stuff. Yeah. Yeah. The Kerr was like he might not want to play for him which again it sounds insane that Durant could complain about anything

with Golden State, but it sounds like he did. But the only complaint that Kevin Durant had about Golden State was he wasn't Steph Curry, and he was never going to be Steph Curry in that market. And no matter what he did

and how many championships they won, Steph Curry was still the guy. And that was never going to change. And beyond that, Curry was Kerr's guy. And that was never going to change. And beyond that, Curry was Kerr's guy. And KD knew that.

But there was a reason Curry was Kerr's guy. Because it was his team. Well, not only that, he's one of the most accommodating superstars I've ever seen. I've ever been around.

And I think that's the KD-Kerr thing definitely fell apart the last year. I think that was a piece of it. Like, even, we got a puppy last month and watch the dynamic of the puppies competing for our attention.

And this, our one dog, Willie, who was kind of the apple of everyone's eye. And then this new puppy comes in and he was just so resentful. The first, not to compare NBA players to dogs. Did you name the dog Kyrie? But it's just funny with egos and resentment. It's just human nature. It's dog nature. And it's like, if you feel like this is always going to be Curry's team, he's always going to be the apple of this coach's eye. Why am I here? I really do think that was a huge piece of the KD thing. And now you go to the Brooklyn piece. It's KD's team. Now you have Harden here. Like whose team is it? Whose city? Who's running the

show? You have Nash, who's a new coach. You have an organization that's never been there before. It just seems like a mess to me. And Kyrie. Right. But they're so talented. So the question is, so what I'm most interested in is what does Kevin Durant do now? How does Kevin Durant feel about what's happened with Kyrie? Maybe he's totally in concert with him. I'm sure he's been talking with him. Maybe he's like, you all don't understand what it's like to be an NBA player,

to be a black man in this country, to deal with everything we're dealing with. And that very well, I mean, that's true. I'll say it's true. That is true. I have no idea what that's like. And so maybe for most NBA players, they understand it. You know, they understand where Kyrie's coming from in a way we never will.

That's entirely possible. It really is. And so KD can say, I know when he's back, he's my brother. We got this. We're going to go moving forward. But that's different than what's going on with Harden. They need to know from Harden, you're going to show up, you're going to defend, you're going to play. You're not going to get as many shots. I can report now, he's not going to defend.

Yeah. So, I mean, what's going to happen, you know? Rosillo, can you do 20 seconds on how bad Harden is if he doesn't have the ball in a possession, just even at his peak when he was at his all-time prime? Well, we know that he never wanted to have anything to do with the play once he was disengaged from it, which then Houston media members described as basketball genius because he was spreading the floor

until people immediately figured out you can help off of him every single time, which is one of Chris Paul's big frustrations because he's like, even if I beat my guy, I know he's always in it, but he's so far removed he's not even a good option anymore. But it's not even any of that. We know he's going to get his numbers. The guy can get 25 with his eyes closed. It is all the little defensive stuff where he picks the wrong assignment. He decides to stay at home to double a guy that's not the threat

and leave the threat open because it's just an effort thing. Baseline, forget it. He won't box out. If somebody else is crashing the boards, he boxes out the guy that's already boxed out because he's closer because he knows the other one's going to take more effort. There are so many sneaky, horrible plays in his game right now that you've got to fix all of this stuff

if you actually think you're going to win a championship. And how are you going to do it in season? How do you do it in season? How do you lose weight and get fit and do all these things in season? Caring. That's it. One word, care. Yeah.

Yeah, but don't eat as much. Do you think this move will single-handedly revitalize the strip club industry in New York City? That's a joke for Mel and Yang. We have Harden in New York City. This is...

I don't know how that plays out. Here's my question from a basketball standpoint, because I thought about this during the couple of games, KD and Kyrie played together. There's a moment at the end of one game, they came out of a timeout, they needed a basket and they ran a play for Kyrie. And KD stood on the side and watched it.

And I was watching it thinking, KD's the most gifted scoring forward of all time. I think even Larry Bird would admit that. I don't know if he's the best offensive forward all the time, but if you picked any forward in the history of the league to get two points, it would be Kevin Durant. And he's watching Kyrie. Kyrie missed. Durant got the rebound.

And then Durant had to go at it with seven set. And he missed like his little leaner from 12 feet away and they lost. But watching that was weird because Katie was on the side. Now you're also going to have hardened on the side in these situations. There's never been anything like this in the history of basketball where you have three guys with the kind of usage rate they have kind of offensive talent they have. We've just never seen this before.

Never, not three guys like this. No, I don't think so. It's funny. You're talking about usage rate when Kyi or when one of them went out durant went out first right for protocol reasons yeah i just looked i think i looked up their usage rate it was almost identical it was like 32.6 percent like it was almost identical their usage rate. And I'm like, ugh, I want Kevin Durant now that I know he's healthy

because, boy, think about how well he's come back from what he came back from. And we know historically people don't come back from this in the way that he has, especially with this kind of accuracy and dedication. I mean, I can't say enough about the star he had coming back. And yet his usage rate was almost the same as Kyrie's, right off the top. Yeah, you're right about that. Durant's had two significant injuries that he's come back from. Yeah, yeah, the broken leg, the weird thing where the hockey stick feet and all that.

I mean, it's unbelievable what he's gone through. He's played eight games, and he's averaging 38-6, which is where he was when he left. So I test, he looks the same. Wait, no, he's averaging 38 and six, which is where he was when he left. So I test, he looks, no, he's 28 and six, right?

You say 38. Durant's eight games, 30 a game. Oh, I thought you were like 38. And I was like, wait, what's going on? I'm sorry.

This should be a bigger deal. Nobody's scoring. 30 hyphen, eight hyphen and six hyphen. Yeah. 38 and six. Got it. Yeah.

Yeah. And I test like he's looked where he was a year and a half ago right that's how i feel do you feel like you feel like he's any lesser because i do not i don't either no i don't either when guys will say like hey he's 85 percent of what he was i'm fascinated by people that can say that because i'll be like how where's the 15 percent that's missing bill's a big 15% guy. I love percentages. Just most of them annoy you. I love that.

Brady's 96% where he was three years ago. I honestly don't even get annoyed. I sit there in awe going, I hope I'm a percent guy one day. Hey, one thing on this Brooklyn thing. So they lose Jared Allen. I love Jared Allen. I just think he's really good. Me too.

Poor guy. I mean, another body in Harden's wake also. You know? Another one. And then they lose Levert, and I thought when Kyrie came back, I thought the thing that kind of made this team special potentially was their depth and their ability to just...

Yeah, and Levert and their ability to just, yeah. And Levert and their ability to extend leads with their bench, which other teams don't like now they have no bench at all. Like if you look at their team, it's Durant Kyrie, Joe Harris, who went to the bench, who went to the bench because they remember they put it on the bench right before all this happened. They're paying a ton of money for Harris. I'm not sure you can play Durant Irving, Joe Harris and Harden all together as your crunch time guys. So they got those four. And then it's like the Jeff green Prince was in that trade TLC.

They still have, um, I'm sure they'll sign. TLC was playing a lot of sort of buyout, dude. They were doing some closing minutes with him a lot too. I mean, I don't know if he was closing every single game,

but I always try to track the closing five and i'm like man you know this is somebody they really trust and talk up and really he's more defensively a guy that you'd want some bruce brown you know like there's a version if they do all get on the same page that it actually makes sense because duran can shoot from everywhere he's not we saw with golden state that he can actually play with other guys and even if you would said a few minutes ago like have we ever seen anything like this i would put steph and clay and durant up against this version of this it's just but not a not from a usage rate standpoint though from no because but not from right yeah clay was such a good two-way player too his 60 point game i think he had 17 dribbles and then Steph had like 800 or something.

It's completely different. Different skill sets. We saw Durant the first Warriors season, which I still think is probably the best team I've ever seen. My ties to the 86 Celtics notwithstanding. Wow. Durant was so unselfish

and awesome that year. So we know he can do it. Kyrie, Kyrie, we've seen him with LeBron as the number two guy who can float in and out of quarters, but then immediately take over and be devastating. And we saw him defer. We saw Kyrie defer a lot in the Milwaukee series where they lost in five. He was deferring on both ends.

The guy we haven't seen do anything other than when he was at OKC, which is now a million years ago, is Harden. We saw Harden as like this six-man awesome guy, but since then he's been a one-man show and I don't know how he turned that off. We better learn in a hurry. He wants this to work.

Can we do Willow Depot? Yeah, go for it. If we must. So, Rasella and I have, we did, we talked about this yesterday. He did my podcast

and we both really enjoy The Pacers. And one of the fun things about The Pacers was, well, and Sabonis and I love both holidays. I enjoy McDermott.

But Malcolm Brogdon, Malcolm Brogdon, he should be on the Milwaukee Bucks right now. Eric Bledsoe never should have been there. Don't even get me started. Wait, why are you putting your hands behind your neck? Because I'm the only one that disagrees

with you guys. I know Bill probably feels stronger about this than you. I don't know who between the two of you. My position has always been this. Malcolm Brogdon, if you ask teams before the draft, has one of the historically worst medicals ever and that okay Milwaukee if Milwaukee had him and was like even though we took him in the second round he's been really good we just don't know about 80 million when we have him in

our house I defer to the med team from the incumbent team if they moved on from it he may be perfect for this Pacers you know the whole thing he's been awesome I get it and you guys I totally get where you're coming from but I've always felt like Milwaukee gets too much criticism because they had him in house and they just didn't feel as good about his medicals but they also had Eric Bledsoe in house and they saw Eric Bledsoe on breakaway jams when they're up by 30 grabbing his crutch and slam crotch and slamming the ball through they saw his the way he behaved in Phoenix it's not like he's this model citizen. Brogdon's nickname is El Presidente. I'll take my chances with that kind of guy and his health and history,

as opposed to Bledsoe who just disappeared, evaporated into thin air in postseason after postseason. Come on, dude. I just like Brogdon. I like Brogdon's game. I like the cerebral. It's so fun with him and Sabonis because it's almost like watching a European team or like a mid-2010 Spurs team, stuff like that. How about how he stayed in front of Curry

in the corner last night? Did you see that play where Curry dribbled into the corner and kind of screwed himself up? Brogdon was staying in front of him. Curry was throwing everything at him and he stayed right in front. It's pretty impressive. You know what I was wondering? Remember when the Celtics wanted a sign and trade with, with the patients,

do you think they asked for Brogdon? Sure. At some point, Ainge asked for Brogdon. He probably asked for everybody, you know? Right. Well,

they lit a fire under Miles Turner because Miles Turner is like Bill Russell now defensively. Yeah. So we would watch this Indiana team. It was clear. They didn't like Oladipo. And when Oladipo would do well, it was kind of like, hey, good shot, dude.

And it's just the vibe was off. And watching them last night, I was texting Rassil about this this morning, about they didn't have Oladipo last night, and they were really fired up to win the game, and both holidays are playing. And it was just like, oh, I wonder what they can get for Oladipo. It's clear they don't need him. Now they turn him into Levert,

who's basically the TJ Warren replacement, because it seems like TJ Warren's going to be out two down months. But I'm really down with this Pacers team. I said to Rossell in a text today, I thought they had slim but not unrealistic Miami Heat 2020 bubble potential as just kind of a wild card that I'm not sure i want to see in a playoff series if they can figure out all their pieces i think it's gonna be good for them who's

your closer like who's your closer is it lavert i think so i think it's a bonus is so good i you know bill and i are working on this top 30 top 40 and i was like why am i hesitating on this at all i mean sabonis is so clearly i love love Sabonis, but it's funny. When I was doing a straw poll among players way back in the good old days when we were actually in gyms talking to guys. And it was because, you know, Tatum was going to, I was pretty sure Tatum was going to be an all-star, you know? And I was asking him, and I said to him,

I don't think Jalen Brown is going to be an all-star. And Tatum's like, why not? And I'm going through all the players. And he's like, this player,'t think Jalen Brown is going to be an all-star. And Tatum's like, why not? And I'm going through all the players. And he's like, this player, no, Jalen's better than him. I go, well, he's your teammate. You're biased. But anyway, it just gave me the idea to start every time a team came through saying, all right, who would your East all-star see?

Asking the players. And it was so funny how many of them just didn't think as much about Sabonis as I did. The players themselves just really didn't, for whatever reason, give him the cred that I thought he deserved, you know, because he is.

I like that he can, I like that he can actually create for other people, especially like in the last couple of minutes, because they, you can run a little screen with them or he can end up with it and he could actually like, not, it's not just like, Oh, I'll just get my jump hook. There's five different things he can do.

He had two drives where he got completely cut off. Because, you know, when Golden State goes with this big thing, Wiseman's like a one and a half human being. I know, he is, isn't he? He's so fun to watch. He has a couple moments every night where you're like, oh my God. And then he has some other ones that you're going, what? Oh, you're 19. Yeah, right uh but sabonis completely shut off and i don't know how many other guys playing you know look we have an incredible group of mobile bigs who have vision and all that kind

of stuff but sabonis is making these he's making guard like drive to the rim kick out passes where he already knows what he's doing and it's it's catching people off guard because they're just not expecting a four to make these drives. They can play him at the five. His post work, I'd put him, I don't know who's better than him in the post. Foot work, the up and under stuff. Durant. Durant.

Durant's really good in the post. He just doesn't do it often. He just doesn't have to. And Embiid still has incredible post stuff. I would say Sabonis has the best menu. Yeah, he just doesn't have to. And Embiid still has incredible post stuff. Sabonis has the best menu. I think he has the most moves on his diner menu. He can throw you a sandwich, soup, a little salad.

But the reason I think it was such an important trade for Indiana was I do think they needed to do something about the Oladipo thing because two years ago, he was the guy on that team. And once that's happened, you're always going to think you're the guy, regardless of what has happened since. And you could feel the tension in it where it's clear, like Brogdon and Sabonis, these,

this is the engine of this team with all these role players. So now they flip the old Depot piece. They bring in Levert. Who's not as good as Sabonis and old Depot, but can be a really good. Yeah. We don't know what really good sixth, seventh man for them. I think he'd be better than that.

He's better than that. Could be. I'm saying worst case scenario. And then if you're Houston, you get to take a flyer on Oladipo, who two years ago was one of the top 20 guys in the league. And if you don't like him, you can let him go. So I actually really like that piece for both teams. Ryan, are, you, are you pro Oladipo at this point or where are you? I am. I'm still

holding out hope. Like you were throwing me some trades that were terrible this morning and I loved them though. I loved them all. Like you had one. I had, what was my Dallas trade? Josh, Josh Green and Josh Green and James Johnson for Oladipo. And I just, and i just i know you know it sucks and i'm going i i love that you put josh green in there as like a first round out as a multiple defender yeah he was the sweetener on that and i just go i had a pick in there too you know you guys need to find some hobbies for two of you this is what we do in the mornings apparently i start every day with going every day i start i go no basketball just for a day turn the phone off don't text with anybody and then you know it comes

six o'clock west coast time there i am charting the calves rotations i just can't i don't know i mean look there's not a lot going on so i'm not going to complain about any of it or any that kind of stuff but i'm i thought Oladipo, for all of the, hey, what's he look like post-injury, he looks bad at basketball, but healthy.

So I'm hoping. Yeah, totally agree. That's a great way to put it. He looks fine, but he's not playing well. So let's take this forward then. So if you're Houston, you had to get rid of Harden

and you got these picks and you got, you know, Oladipo is the centerpiece for you, right? Is that enough? Well, you have all the picks and now you're buying time, but you're buying time to kind of figure out who you are and what you want to be. There's still a P.J. Tucker trade. There's an Eric Gordon trade. Or if I told you two and a half years ago, hey, there's going to be a team.J. Tucker trade. There's an Eric Gordon trade. Or if I told you two and a half years ago... Well, if I told you two and a half years ago,

hey, there's going to be a team in the 2020-21 season. They're backwards. John Wall and Victor Oladipo in their center's boogie cousins. You'd have been like, oh, is that a five seed? Is that the Washington Wizards? Oladipo, look, I've defended Wall. I've definitely defended Wall more than i've ever

criticized him i think you look back a few years ago jackie i mean he was he was a really good player he's he was on top of the table i was there man they had just beaten the celtics in game six and he is up on the table and he was awesome yeah yeah so i don't what what beef should anyone have with john wall then dude got hurt and he's fought like hell to get back. And think about him through all this noise. He was a superstar, and he's just sat back and tried to be a voice of reason and not to inflame it. I've been impressed with John since he got back. I mean, I don't know what people want.

That's what was funny about watching, especially last night's game. But this is not new. People are making out to be like, oh, it couldn't be any uglier than last night. It's actually been pretty ugly like a bunch of different times just happened to be that it was the lakers maybe more people were watching it right i mean cousins almost got ejected again and i was like is he getting ejected and then he sounds like the voice the reason of those i just loved when it was different guys who were probably going to be in

the g league in normal circumstances once they start looking at harden being like what the fuck are you doing i'm like this is hilarious like you never never see this in the NBA where the guy who's on a two-way is looking at a future Hall of Famer being like, what are you doing here? So I think from the Oladipo part of this and all of those different pieces, I think you'd rather had had Simmons. And I'm not the biggest Simmons guy, but this is where I think GMs can get really cute. You know, it really is about the one piece. And that's why, you know, for years, GMs will tell you, hey, you got to win the trade.

If you're getting the best player, I know that sounds stupid and simplistic, like, oh, hey, thanks insiders for telling me you want the best player in this. But that's a lot of times where you can get really cute with all these swaps and all these future picks and everybody's excited about this. And clearly Houston had to restock the shelves here with the picks

because of all the stuff that they had moved out in the Westbrook deal. So I don't blame them for that. But if Simmons were on the table the way a lot of us believe that he was, and this came down to like a Tyrese Maxey thing, I'd rather have Simmons than Oladipo, who's a free agent at the end of the year. See, I'm a big Simmons fan. Yeah, I'm a big Simmons fan. Yeah, I'm a big Simmons fan. I still think in the right situation.

And I don't know, maybe this isn't the right situation. We'll see. They're winning. I just don't ever look at Simmons and want him. I don't care about his stats as much as I do other things. The way he can go downhill and change a game. For me, when I watch Simmons, I'm looking situationally, which sounds dumb.

So let's just say he's got the ball in his hands and he's going downhill. I want to see him do what I think he should do every game, which is drive through everybody. Nobody can stop him and finish. He's like LeBron. Yeah, and I want to see more of that. Right, and I want to see more of that. I want to see him defend at a level where,

like he's Pat Beverly only with all the tools, you know? And I don't get that every night from him, but I think he's still young, and I still think he's going to get there. I really do. Well, as a basketball fan, I think it would have been more fun if Simmons was the trade and Brooklyn kept the team they had

and the Kyrie thing sorted itself out and it worked. Because I did like watching that Brooklyn team. I liked the idea of Simmons with his own team in Houston where he could do the downhill stuff and just basically try to do a late 2000s LeBron impersonation.

And then from a Philly standpoint, Harden and Embiid together, I was just kind of excited for I, the Brooklyn thing, it feels like it's going to be either. We're going to be going, wow. How did we ever doubt this with having these three scores on the court? They're unstoppable, or it's going to be a disaster. And I don't think there's a middle ground for this. It really does feel like one of the all-time either or moves like you could talk

me into either side i would probably lean more toward the disaster um but i care about what it looks like game 50 not game 10 because when things are new everyone's saying the right things in the relationship we all know the right things to say when you're first talking to somebody that you don't want to piss them off you're hiding hiding your weirdness, you know, and then you start moving in. And now it's now, you know, we're talking about February and March. And then you start sharing real tendencies. My favorite, my favorite ever was in Jackie knows this well. When Antoine Walker came back to the Celtics for that weird stretch,

he was, he was so intent on getting back on defense, trying not to take threes. He was inbounding the ball as quick as he possibly could because he wanted another contract. And look, to Twan's credit, he loved Boston, never wanted to leave. So he was doing it to try to convince them like, hey, keep me around. And those first couple of weeks, it was hilarious. It was like the guy that was the most polite ever opening doors when he shouldn't even been opening doors. And then it slowly starts to creep back to like, Oh wait,

this is why he's not here anymore. And I, I don't know. I can't help, but go wait. So I'm supposed to bet on the personalities of Harden and Kyrie and Durant who signed up for the Kyrie part of it, which still doesn't make a ton of sense that it's all just going to work

out. But then I think about the basketball part, which I think what the GMs do, cause they just go, Hey, these guys are so hard to get. We just got one. We just got one. We just got a hall of famer who's a great shooter a great passer who

plays every game who holds up physically gets the free throw line all the time uh we all know the playoff resume um i think there's a way to think of it this way they have to buy in and they're not buying guys except for one of them in durant that's the problem it's two non-buying guys the buying guy and all three have to buy in. And who's convincing them to buy in? A first-year coach who I have great respect for. How can you not love Steve Nash? And, you know, I got to an argument with some of my colleagues at ESPN about when he said, well, twice, he said,

well, I haven't talked to Kyrie. You know, I didn't hear from him or whatever. And everyone's like, well, he threw Kyrie under the bus. And my take on it was, he didn't throw him under the bus. He's like, well, he threw Kyrie under the bus. And my take on it was he didn't throw him under the bus. He's just an honest guy. You guys have been around Steve. You've been around him half the time. He's just so true.

The last thing he was doing. Was he supposed to cover for him because the guy stopped showing up to work? No, like he just told the truth. And what he doesn't realize is you can't tell the truth if you're an NBA coach. Yeah, no, it's a good point. No, really. And he will learn that, unfortunately, because it's part of your survival skills. But, you know, he is such a good

guy and such a stand-up guy. And I just can't picture him getting in Harden's face and saying, you've got to lose 25 pounds and you've got to lose 15 shots a game from your resume. I can't see it. Like, who's going to do that? If we do this over again,

and we're in that last 2019 playoffs and Durant doesn't get hurt and he's the best player in the league he's better than LeBron the way he was playing. I thought that was the best I've ever seen Durant play. He was

clearly the best guy in the league and they go through and they win another title. And I know it got super sour and weird, but maybe at that point you just go, maybe I should stay. We have a chance to be a dynasty versus I know he wasn't going to, but there's this,

there's this right. If where it's just like, man, it's too bad. Cause I did the pod with him that first season. We did like four pods. The first year is the worst. He was genuinely happy there.

He loved it. He loved the basketball. And there's this world where it's like man that just could have been unbelievable for like eight that could that team could have been eight nine years together and it lasted three but i really kevin to me is so interesting and i i just i still think it at heart he's like a good guy i really believe that but he's thin-skinned we know this and that draymond thing you cannot underplay that that that was like the final thing that did it for him i really think yeah and i think draymond draymond knows that too you know and and i'm not faulting draymond i'm not faulting either one like that stuff happens every night in the locker room you You got to shake that off and move on. So people say stuff like that all the time, but Kevin Durant was never staying.

I mean, I think they knew, I think Steve Kerr knew it almost the whole year. I was there for that game sitting about 50 feet away from it. And I knew, I didn't know what was going on, but it was like one of the ugliest things. I was there for Horry throwing the towel at Danny Ainge. I was there for the tower at Danny Ainge.

I was there for the Doc Bird fight like you were too. That was one of the ugliest things I've seen. I was there at that game too, actually. The Warriors game. They were playing the Lakers, right? Weren't they? Clippers. Yeah, because I know I was in LA for work and I was at the game

just visiting and I needed to get Draymond for something else entirely. Nothing to do with that. So he did his the game just visiting and I needed to get Draymond for something else entirely. Like, nothing to do with that. And so he did his little quick thing and then I'm like, eh, screw it. And I followed him and I'm like, hey, I don't want to talk to you. I go, no, I need to talk to you about something completely different. He's like, oh, great. So he talked to me for my 10 minutes

and off he went, you know. I love Draymond Green. Well, the other what if is the 2016 if he just goes to a different team other than Golden State. I don't like how I think this played out in a really weird way for Durant. We're now he's on this team. He's basically on the island of misfit toys. Him, Kyrene Harden. It might go great.

It might be a disaster. And he also missed all of last year. And this is like one of the best 15 players of all time. I just, it makes me nervous. But on the other hand, when you have a team where you definitely have two of the best eight guys in the league, it's a 30 team league. You have two of the best eight.

That's plus Kyrie, whatever they get. I was going to say, you might have three of the top 30. You know, when Kyrie's- Oh, yeah. Yeah, Kyrie, you have to put him in. I was trying to leave him out, and I go, I can't leave him out of the top 30. Like, that's nuts.

And even with Harden at his very worst, that's why I always push back on the Harden's number four, he's number five, because I just think that group is different. I think it's LeBron, it's KD, it's Kawhi. I would take Sturridge. Look, yeah, Giannis, Doncic probably at this point I'd rather have him over Harden only because even though the games are so similar,

Harden is the better shooter, but Doncic, we just have less bullshit. Although he's getting a little mouthy, Bill, in year three. He's getting a little mouthy. Well, that's who he always was though, right? It's to your point. The more comfortable you get, the more you become who you are. And I don't think it's necessarily bad either. Well, he's like the more comfortable you get the more you become who you are and i don't think it's necessarily bad either well he's from the same country as dragoch and that's a country that just produces badasses dragoch is dragoch is like a closet badass no shack gets in get on

the tnt show feisty shit constantly and i think that you know just has feisty dudes when he was in phoenix he told the story recently because they were talking about this stuff. And he's like, I tried to mess with Dragic. Dragic was just like, hey, I'm not, like, fuck off. I'm not doing that stuff. You don't know where I'm from. And Shaq was kind of like, all right. He's like... Well, remember he had that

feud with Vujicic where it was like it looked like they were going to, like, have a real, like, a knife fight at midcourt during the third quarter of games. Yeah, he's a badass. I think Luka is just... He reminds me of an Italian. He's like a character out of The Godfather.

Just like, don't fuck with me. I'm feisty. But we were saying... Adrian Brody in Peaky Blinders. Did you see Adrian Brody? That's who he is. We were saying yesterday... He's a little Furia.

We were saying yesterday, he, Luca didn't know the season was going to start when it did. And he's playing himself into shape like Shaq in 2004. I don't think he's in shape yet. No, I think that happened to a lot of guys. In fact,

I think it's why a lot of people decided like, like Kemba with the stem cell injection. I think he thought the season was going to start in January. He was going to do that stem cell thing and, and he was going to recover and none of us would have ever known about. So, and who was I just hearing about the other day? They were talking about, yeah, we had no idea the season was going to start. And then it did. And I was going to be on a different training program.

So I think, I think that was universal. I mean, I think what happened, like it got to be Christmas. You know, they started talking about the Christmas game. And I think the NBA is like, no, no, we're going to wait till later. And I think TNT and ESPN and all those people are like, yeah, no. No, no, you'll be starting at Christmas. And then it's like, okay. All right, everybody, let's go.

You know? It was a huge advantage for LeBron because LeBron's in shape 365 days of the year. So he's ready to go. And now he's making his MVP run man they look great don't they look like they look great I was I was going through this this morning because I've had so many games where I'm like what the hell like Gabe Vincent was the one the other night where he took 20 shots from Miami Heat and I was like that's a that's weird that I don't know who Gabe Vincent is and he just took 20 shots in an NBA game and so I

started going through it and I was looking at how many guys are taking like 18 or more. And I did this fan duel video. So by the time this comes out, that'll probably be out. There's, there's like 20 guys in the league that are taking 18 shots or more a game. That's a big, big number, like a huge number. And it doesn't have Harden, Trey young, um, D'Angelo Russell, Paul George, Devin Booker, like some of the guys that are big time, you know, shot takers. And then I started looking at like, there are 39 players that are averaging

20 or more a game right now, 39 players average of 20 or more. So 10 years ago, that number was at 19. So yes, people are taking more threes. Yes. The pace is increasing and all the offensive efficiency numbers and stuff, but we have more high-usage nights from guys that you're like, what the hell is going on with this guy? And there's so many players. Christian Wood's shot jump, the Jeremy Grant stuff. Look, he's been really good closing some of these games, but it's a league-wide thing because of how weird,

exactly as you're saying, Jackie, because of rosters and protocols and all this different stuff and the schedule. And no defense. And no defense. Defense is all conditioning. But defense is all conditioning and effort. And those are two things right now that players that just came off several months of a pandemic and a bubble and all that,

they're just not really ready to do that every single night. They're like, okay, I'll be on the LeBron plan and I'll just do it for the final 20 games of the year. Well, I still think it's the Lakers title, Liz. I know it's early Lakers' title to lose. I know it's early to just declare a winner, but they just seem, watching basketball every night, they just seem like they have their shit together the most.

Joel Embiid looks like the guy on the mission to me. Yeah. That dude is on a mission. He was in the delivery room with his fiancee waiting for the birth of their first child, their son. And he's in the middle. She's in between contractions. He looks at his phone. He finds out he's not all NBA. Since then, that dude, he's taking names and numbers and he's ready

to go. Doc will do the Doc routine on him too at some point. He'll do the press conference where he's like, I don't know why he's not discussed as the best player in the league. Like, he'll pump him up Bundini Brown style. So, all right.

Okay, this is good. Yeah, I appreciate it. Thanks to Jackie McMullin and Bill Simmons, Emergency Hardened Trade. I had a really great time. It was really great to see you. I loved everything we talked about. I had a really fun time. There's only one problem.

I don't know if I should be saying this on the podcast at this time, but I think I hit record about halfway through, just so you know. That's fine. We'll make it work. You'll fit right in. Cool. Thank you.