The Ryen Russillo Podcast - ‘John Wick,’ ‘Sicario,’ and ‘The Town’ Producer Basil Iwanyk Talks His Career, Making Movies, and Affleck/Keanu/Sicario Stories

Episode Date: June 23, 2020

Russillo is joined by film producer Basil Iwanyk to discuss his winding path from aspiring basketball player at Villanova to film producer in Hollywood; what, exactly, a producer does; raising money for films; working with Ben Affleck on ‘The Town,’ Keanu Reeves on the ‘John Wick’ franchise, Benicio del Toro on ‘Sicario’; set stories; Hollywood tough guys; and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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better recover, faster and train smarter with whoop. Okay. Today's podcast is gonna be a little different. I don't want to talk about anything today except for movies. So we'll be back on sports later this week. But he's a guy that I've met just being out in Los Angeles. He is, his credits are incredible.

We got John Wick produced that Sicario franchise, the town 10 years ago ago a ton of other stuff so let's um bring in right now a guy who's been out in la doing a great job for a long time basil i want it i need your help i can't tell you what it is you can never ask me about it later and we're going to hurt some people. Who's Kyle we're going to take? Massive credit list. So I don't want to leave anything out, but I know I was excited about the town, Sicario franchise, the John Wick franchise, a bunch of other stuff. And he's been at this a long time and he's been really successful. And it's Basil Iwanek, producer, And he's been at this a long time and he's been really successful. And it's Basil Iwanek, producer and a guy who actually started back in Philly at Villanova.

And maybe this is why we hit it off so well. You were originally going to be a basketball guy before you were this big time producer. Is that correct? Yeah, I mean, that was always the plan. I grew up in Jersey and on the Jersey Shore and high school basketball was huge. I went to this all boys Catholic high school called Christian Brothers Academy. And my junior year, we were nationally ranked. We had six guys go division one, including John Crotty, who went to UVA and ultimately went to the NBA. And I was the classic, like, you know, Lehigh, you know, that kind of low division one guy, but like an idiot.

And I guess this kind of served me well being a producer. I'm thinking, no, I bet I could walk on to Villanova and I would see Raleigh Massimino all the time because he was there trying to recruit karate. And then my year, I'm just kidding, Mark Dowdell ultimately went to Nova. And Raleigh was always like, yeah, man, we always get, you know, Penn Enright

and, you know, all these great walk-ons. You should come out and walk on. I knew the guy for three years. So I'm like, I'm going to go to Villanova and walk on. I'll start by my midway by junior year. None of that clearly happened. And then the first day I showed up, they're like, oh, yeah, preseason practice is like in September at like 630 in the morning. I'm like, what?

Isn't that illegal? And then Raleigh wasn't around. Then, of course, he shows up and I run over to him and I'm like, what? Isn't that illegal? And then Raleigh wasn't around. Then of course she shows up and I run over to him and I'm like, Raleigh, I'm here. Just like you said, I'm really excited. And he looked at me,

he's like, who the hell are you? And I'm like, oh man. I don't think this is going to last long. So at what point did you know, because I think there's anybody that's interested in film and TV and writing and producing and all that kind of stuff. And maybe you don't even know really what you want to do at

that point you just know you want in you pack up the car and you get out to la yeah yeah it was almost more what i didn't want to do like when you go to nova and i graduated in 1992 you either went into the wall street um and business whatever that meant um or a lawyer or a doctor. And I didn't want to do any of that. And the weird thing was, I loved movies my whole life. Like, I'm the oldest of four. My dad had me when he was like 22. So he was like an older brother. We saw tons of movies.

When the VCR was invented, we would watch movies constantly. And I never thought in a million years that you could actually work at something that you actually enjoyed. And one day I came home over some holiday and just to kind of mess with my parents who expected me to go to law school, I said, I want to go to USC film school. And I was expecting a negative reaction. And in fact, it was just the opposite. They're like, you know, that's perfect for you. It's something you've always wanted to do. You've always loved movies and you're articulate about it. Go ahead. And that was really it. And I actually, when I drove out to California, I said, okay, I'll do this for three, four years, live in Manhattan

Beach, you know, which you know well, and enjoy myself, probably fail, but who cares? I'll come back and then I'll get a real job. And that was, you know, that was, you know, 20 zillion years ago at this point. But yeah, I just drove out and I stayed with, I crashed with, um, with Bill and all of my friends who graduated a couple of years before me. This was before cell phones. So I just showed up and I slept on their couch for eight, nine months. So did you want to be an agent? Cause you started at UTA and I, you know, I've had a couple of friends that are writers that go, well, I went to an agency just so I could read a million scripts and meet people and then made people that it was going to rep me.

Cause that was really the only way in. So I didn't know if that was something that you thought of at some point, or you were just like, I'm using this as just like a lot of people do just some way in, but did you ever have designs on being an agent? No, but I don't also want to make it, make it sound like I had choices. In other words, like my first job was, I was like a production assistant on Whitesnake videos. And I thought like production assistants. Wait a minute.

So you peaked early. I did, exactly. But by the way, I didn't know. Wait a minute. Like the actual, like the piano and the girl on the piano type videos. I remember these like junior high. Yeah. In your downtown LA.

And I thought I'd be like right next to the director while I set some shots. In fact, I was like three blocks away making sure homeless people and traffic, you know, didn't rush through the, uh, to the sets. And it sounds cool. But when you hear the same song played over and over again, like 14 hours straight over and off, you go insane and so uh and then i worked for this company called full moon entertainment um which was like roger like a roger corman type company they made movies with like george the kai and all these other like transfers four and five and i was miserable and

my boss at the time his name is guy brian 80, who I really owe a lot to, he said, you should be at an agency. And I'm like, why? I don't want to be an agent. I want to be in movies. He's like, yeah, but that's where you'll learn everything. Because he would ask me, what do you want to do? I'm like, I have no idea.

I don't know what people do. I don't know what a producer does. I don't know what, like, when I was on set, the first AD, I'll cut an action. I'm like, I thought that was supposed to be the producer. I had no idea. And he said, like, go to an agency. You'll learn. You'll get the landscape. And it was. I i thought that was supposed to be the producer i had no idea and he said like go to an agency you'll learn you'll get the landscape and it was i tell everyone that comes out to la like if you can start as an agency in that agency you learn everything everything that's a good transition because i've always wanted to ask this question because i think

most people don't really know what a producer is is it somebody who just has money is it somebody who raises money do they have anything to do with the execution of the script? Do they have any direction input? Like I've read one of your quotes where you were like, you really only have a point of view as a producer, which also makes me think that that's you kind of getting out of the way, but that could be personal to you. And then you'll see EP stuff. I actually think outside of the business, there's a lot of confusion of what the hell the title even means. Oh my, I'm not kidding you. Every two to three years, one of my parents or my sister will say to me,

tell me exactly what you do. I'm like, how many times do I have to explain? I mean, there are really two types of, listen, there are, let me start off with saying anyone could have a producer credit. You know, people who sometimes pay for the movie, they could be a manager or a partner for the actor or the director or the writer. So let's put that aside, because it's incredible how anyone

could get credit as a producer. There are really two types of producers. There are the ones who are creative producers. They're the ones who are really the first ones in and the last ones out. They're there every step of the way. That's me. It's story.

It's developing the script. It's picking the director and working with the director, picking the cast, the heads of departments. It's being on set. Or even if you're not on set, you're watching dailies every day. You're involved in every cut of the movie. That's what I do. I think the,

there's also something called a line producer. And what a line producer does, they do all the mechanics of it, like it's going to cost this much money and budgets and that stuff. I hire those people, but I, my businesses, my, my job has evolved a lot over the last 10 years where now I'm also a guy who raises the financing for these movies. And that was a conscious choice because for a long time, I was at Warner Brothers as a producer and it was great, but they paid for everything. And I just kind of was just there to have my creative input. Now I'm an independent producer. And the good news of that is I have upside, creative, financial.

But the bad news is I got to find the financing for all these movies. It was really tough eight, nine years ago. Now it's much easier since I have some idea what I'm doing. The money part, how frustrating is that? The sense I get from talking to you and looking at some of this stuff is that you have the creative part of you. You're not going to write, but you're, you're going to read a script. You're going to have a sense of like, okay,

this is what could work. And we'll, let's make some changes. But then also with your background of answering to the studio executive, who basically is like, we, we need to make money on this. And it feels like one of those things where the artist is always like,

they don't get it. They don't get it. And the executive is like, Hey, you don't get it. Like, how do you play that character, not even a character, but how do you play that role in trying to make sure both sides understand each other? Because that seems to be a lot of what you do. It is. But you know what's actually astonishing to me and really, really, really shocking? How many directors, big time directors, and even actors, and when I say actors, I mean

actors and actresses, do understand and have empathy for the people that put the money up. It's very rare these days where you have someone who's like, out of the hell with them. I don't care. I think there's a couple of reasons. One, I think there's a romantic view of people going, I think there's a romantic view of people going, ah, you know, it's all about the art. I'm not going to, I don't, I think people are respectful of people, of the money. They just are. And I also think there's self-interest, which is if you're a director or an actor that has a reputation of showing contempt for the budget and for money, you don't work. for the budget and for money, you don't work. And the moment you have a misstep, which we all do,

your misstep resonates for a lot longer than someone who is respectful of the money. And then you have a fail and you just kind of dust off and go back up. But I do think, you know, it's where it's the hardest is when you are coming up with a budget. That's when people get offended. You know what I mean? As you know, artists and myself too, because we think the movie's worth, you know, $35 million. And they'll say, no, it's worth 25. And we're like, but that's, you almost take it personally. You're saying like, that's like, this is the best we can do. You don't think we're as valuable as we do.

And that's where it gets tough. And then, but once you find that common ground, I find that most people are respectful. And now that's also something that I do. I'm very transparent. Like I talked to the filmmakers that I work with and I'd say, here's the situation, here's the money we have. You and I are partners. We're in the same sandbox here. Let's figure this out together. And, um, I've been able, I've been lucky in that regard. So you leave Warner brothers because you just felt like, all right, I have more to do. And you start thunder road, which is your own production company. And that's, that's essentially what you've been doing. What? 15 years now? Well, yeah, I was an executive at Warner's. I was like a studio. I was like the guy that you're talking about. I was the suit. And then I started Thunder Road at Warner Brothers. And I had one year where I did Brooklyn's Finest, Clash of the Titans, The Town, and Expendables.

In one year? 10 yeah and i'll never forget i remember it so clearly so the town was um what was so flew so under the radar there and when people saw the movie i'll never forget one of the executives said to me after they saw it like it's gonna be good for ben but not for us i'm like what do you mean he's like we're gonna lose everything we we're gonna lose all the money we put in that's okay we love that and we thought the movie was gonna open up like 15 and open up like 27 and so and so saturday morning i'm driving with my wife and somebody from the studio calls me and says um like hey congratulations on the town i'm like thanks and two seconds later it was like where's where's clash of times two like let's go let go, let's go, let's go.

And I realized I had a one-minute victory lap on the town at the studio. And I realized that the studio didn't want movies. They wanted Clash of Titans for me, those kinds of movies. And I realized at that moment that I needed to have some... I wanted to be independent. I wanted to have a little bit more input on the kind of movies I wanted to make. Because making The Town was one of the greatest year and a half of my life.

Clash of the Titans, as much as I loved people involved, was hell on earth on every level. Alright, why was it hell on earth? Because the movie is staggeringly expensive and you're shooting all over the world and half your cast you don't meet until about two weeks

before the movie comes out, which is the visual effects of these monsters. And it was, we couldn't figure out the tone. The first, we reshot 40 minutes of the movie. And then we decided to do like this 3D conversion, which no one ever did before. And we had Jeffrey Katzenberg come out and tell us that we were a bunch of crooks and criminals.

It was just really unpleasant. And you hear these stories where, you know, the worst part of being a producer is you never feel victory, you just feel relief. That movie came out in 2010, made $500 million. To this day, I just feel relief. I don't have any victory, feel of victory. And that's an unpleasant

place to be. And again, I have to say the people that worked on Clash were amazing. The actors were great. The director, everybody were great people, but it was the anxiety over it was just staggering. So let's talk about the town then.

What's your favorite story? The story you're telling your buddies when they go, all right, give us your best town story. That's a good question. I think my favorite, I can't name the names of the actors. Ben wanted to put this guy in. He never acted before in his life. Great looking dude, great guy.

Was he a Boston guy or or something was that what ben was hardcore but just served 11 years in jail for um and it wasn't for like a fight it was for like possession of like submachine it was something insane and ben's like i want to hire him i want to hire him he's great and ben was really respectful and is really respectful and it got to the point where the chairman of the studio flew out and sat down with ben and just said ben we can't do this we're a public company you know this is a really problem and ben's like what am i supposed to do this guy just came out of jail this is his whole life like this is such a disaster i don't want to do this and and he's

like just put him a small role somewhere um but we can't do it. It's a corporate thing. I can get fired. We said, fine. He goes, you have a second choice? We do. We hire him. All good. Ben comes in, closes the door. He goes, I'm going to tell you something.

You can't tell anybody either. So you can't tell anybody. I'm like, what? The guy we just hired, he's also a convicted felon. I'm like, don't tell anybody. I go, whatever you do, don't tell anybody. I go, whatever you do, don't tell the studio.

And we made the movie and everything was fine. But also, I mean, what's crazy about, about Boston was, like, I was on,

in a van and a guy was, the van drivers talked to me and he's like, yeah, he's the box. And I'm like,

oh, really? He goes, yeah, I was kind of famous. I'm like, what's your name? He goes, Mickey Ward from The Fighter. He was one of our band drivers.

And you realize that all the time. I was kind of famous. I know. But that's the thing about, you know, making a movie in Charlestown with Ben, we were so taken care of. The best group of people ever, like Jon Hamm, Renner, Blake blake lively rebecca hall they were

such good times uh we had so much fun on that movie we were in fenway park like i had i saw every inch of fenway park we did everything we can there it was it was a dream it was like one of those dream movies how hard was it to get baseball to sign off on all the stuff you were doing easier than you think and it's interesting because i'm dealing with that now and they're very proud of it but i think you know john henry and ben are close and that was a big a big part of it um baseball loved ben because he was so pro pro red sox at the time um it was that was shockingly and as i said nick trotta at mlb did help us do it.

It was not as hard as you would think. I've had it much harder since then on things you would think would be a lot easier. Maybe it's just a fear, knowing that if you don't have a plan and you propose to use professional sports teams and leagues and this kind of stuff, and it's like, yeah, no, it's all a no unless you show us something that's worth us being associated with. And it's like, yeah, no, it's all a no, unless you show us something that's worth us being associated with. And I'm sure with Ben, his relationship with the Red Sox, the city, and then seeing that this is a great film and the cut and the edit and all these different things that, okay, all right, baseball's ready to sign off on really the drama that's disguised as an action movie. And the action is there to bring in maybe more people to excite us. But then next thing you know, we're at the theater and there's really only a couple action scenes. And that's fine. Like, I'd rather watch a drama than an action movie. But how do you handle trying to figure out like we want to tell the story that is the actual story here,

but knowing that some of those action scenes are what pay the bills. You know, we preview that movie. When I say preview, you know, the audience preview where you go into like a movie theater, you have a recruited audience. We previewed that movie probably five times. None of them went well, none of them. And the reason why right off the bat, 25% of the audience was like, I'm going to reject it. I do not. I'm not going to root for bank robbers that shoot our cops.

I'm just not doing it. 25% gone. And so it got to the point where instead of getting taking like kind of the hard data from the audience, we realized that we had to take the people that were just rejected the movie, audience, we realized that we had to take the people that were just rejected the movie, got rid of them, and just figure out the people that didn't have a moral issue with rooting for these bank robbers. But we never had that great audience screening where we walked out high-fiving each other. And in fact, we actually thought our ending was a mistake. So we reshot an ending with Ben surviving, which was a great scene. I'm sorry, Ben getting killed.

Ben getting killed, right. Which was a great scene. We thought about, he doesn't have to end up with her. We were misdiagnosing the issue. And ultimately, that's the strange thing. Nobody seemed to care when it came out. But it was a big,

it was definitely a big challenge. And I think it's what we were kind of characterized at Warner's as a quote unquote smaller movie. Because it was like, oh, it's a bunch of bad guys. But here's the irony. Not to jump ahead, but I remember Denis Villeneuve on Sicario. It was our first preview. We did it in New Jersey, Clifton, on Sicario. And he's like, what should I expect?

I've never been to a preview before. And he's like, well, right off the bat, you're going to get 25% of the audience say they can't root for this movie because Benicio Del Toro killed the kids. Like, just right off the bat. And you're going to have people walk out on that scene. Even though it's at the end of the movie, you'll have people walk out.

He's like, get rid of those people and then whoever's left, that's our audience. And I was wrong. It was statistically that scene of Benicio del Toro killing the kids was statistically the audience's most favorite scene in the entire movie. And in fact, there were more people that said the kids and the guy got off easy because it was a quick kill. Well, Benicio's daughter was dipped in a vat of acid than they deserved. I was shocked because the town, I thought, because of the experience of the town, you'd have a third of the audience go, oh, my God, these are brutal, tough people. I can't root for them. But no, that wasn't the case. Yeah, maybe it was because renner gets lit

up you know that jem was a bad guy and that he gets lit up so you're like okay now i have i have my reward were you brought in because you know for those that understand it prince of thieves is chuck hogan book and that was a screenplay and then ben was involved and he has a writing partner who is terrific yeah yeah right aaron give his last name just so that I don't Aaron Stockard. Right. So, were you,

it feels like you were almost brought in because of your personality maybe more so than some of your success that they just go, Basil's like, you're going to be

a good fit with Ben. Was that what it felt like? It was almost like prearranged buddies? Oh my God. It's so funny because one of the things

you learn as a producer is always beware when a studio puts you on a movie. Because most of the movies, 90% of the movies we have come out of our own development slate. And Matt Riley, who was the executive at the time, said, we need a producer on the town. You're going to love that. You must know him. And I'm like, I don't know him. I'm like, weirdly enough, because we ran in similar circles and played basketball and stuff, but I just didn't know him. And I show up in Boston to see him for the first time. And he looks at me, and I could tell he was just like, oh, of course.

This is the guy they sent. They sent a guy that's like me. And we laughed about it. But no, it definitely was. It was someone who, at least their perception was, could go toe-to-toe with him, although he was the most user-friendly, collaborative director you could ever imagine. But there's no question that I was the East Coast sports guy

kind of going, okay, Ben will respond to this person, which actually in retrospect was absurd, but that definitely was true at the time. Ben's personality. Now, at this point, he's established. It's 15 years, basically, since, well, whatever, round down a little bit, since Good Will Hunting. He's done all these successful things.

And directors, depending on what kind of directing style you have, like they're not, obviously they're very different people. Some are super artsy, some are almost anti-social. What does it mean to have somebody who's already that confident in himself and then knows he's the star, so he's not proving to everybody that he's the star that's also directing this film? Like how different is that dynamic than say some of the standard guys that have never been in front of a camera?

I think people, it's very easy to look at the town in retrospect and go that was a no-brainer or what an all-star cast ben was at a very very very low point in his career um and very low and in fact the original um the original um cast that he kind of contemplated, he was going to play the Frawley part, the John Hamm part, and try to cast like a Wahlberg or Christian Bale and stuff like that. And so he was definitely down on his, at least the perception was, he was down on his luck, which made everybody work. I'm telling i'm telling you something it's it's why that process was so great because we all liked him so much and we all want to see him like come go back

to where he was because we saw he was as a filmmaker and as an actor and as a guy and everybody just on that movie was was so happy that it succeeded because we wanted it for ben i know it sounds like bullshit, but I'm telling you, it was, everyone was just like, this guy deserves to be back to where he ultimately became. And, you know, Jon Hamm at the time was probably the most,

the quote-unquote hottest guy in the cast because he was off of Mad Men. Renner, Hurt Locker didn't come out yet, so Jeremy was just a cool, interesting character actor. Blake Lively was coming off of Gossip Girl. And so that wasn't, you know, Rebecca Hall was the class act. I think that, you know, it was a really underground, not underground, it was a below the radar cast, especially for a big studio. But, you know, Ben, you know, it was was the strangest thing about

it was just him directing and acting at the same time that was just kind of surreal but we got through that pretty quickly more with basil here in a sec but during this time of social distancing connecting with friends over a beer today looks pretty different as the original light beer miller light has always been there to bring people together in real life through miller time miller time is a moment for people to come together in real life to connect over a few beers, but having Miller Time is tough when you can't be with your people. Most excited to connect with? Probably the Lifeguards.

Yeah, probably the Lifeguards. Miller Lite is the beer that makes Miller Time possible. Miller Lite is the original light beer that tastes great and is less filling, which means it won't get in the way of enjoying time with your people. Trying to make it back East at some point here before Orlando starts up. Not sure if I'm going to be able to pull it off. Really want to, but I know that I do want to point at a couple of my buddies and just send

them a couple tall, cold ones. Miller light, the original light beer while you're home, enjoy a classic available for delivery today. Celebrate responsibly. Miller Brewing Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces.

All right, you mentioned Sicario. It is one of my favorite movies as far as like my moment in theater, the border crossing, the anxiety that I felt sitting next to my buddy the music is perfect it's just the tension and i remember at the end of that scene like i almost felt like have i not did i breathe in the last 10 minutes like it's it's one of my favorite scenes ever but as you alluded to before benicio's character there were different versions of the

script and that's something i want to get into because taylor shared and how terrific he's been with with the stuff that you've worked on with him but him killing the drug lord's family originally that was going to be different so you you said like hey can we get away with this but what was that going to be in the original ending um the original ending was he uh shoots the drug lord lord says to the wife move to a small town put your kids in college you know figure your shit out or I'm gonna come back for them and that was in the script up until about a week and a half or two weeks before we shot the scene. And it was Benicio and Denis came up with the idea and why they should do it. I thought it was brilliant.

Everybody thought it was brilliant. The studio at the time, Lionsgate picked up the movie kind of right before we started shooting. They were great. They just said, shoot it two ways. One where one the way that's in the script and one the way you want to do it. Of course, the way we shot the one in the script out of focus and like that.

It was unusable. And Taylor, God bless him. Yeah, how did Taylor feel about it? He refused to write it. He refused to write it. He refused to write it. He's like, that's not the character. And what's a really, which is really funny is, um, Denis, myself, and Erica Lee, who is the president of my company,

we're in his office and Denis's like, we got to write it out, um, to give it to the crew so they know, you know, special effects and actor, you know, they just need to know what it is and so we wrote it out just like on like you know um just us and denise you know is french canadian so he doesn't you know he speaks great english but that's not his his forte i i i have great dialogue to me just eludes me i can't write it and so we kind of just wrote like in the most basic things of what they were supposed to be saying. And we were supposed to tell Benicio, like, do say it in your own words. But no one told Benicio.

We see it shot, and it was exactly how we wrote it. But the thing that was great is Benicio doesn't talk a lot in the movie. So it was just very simple. You know, it wasn't trying to be flourished. But, no, Taylor was furious, furious at us. And I have to say, this wasn't Taylor Sheridan, Mr. Man of Letters, successful guy. This was Taylor Sheridan, nothing produced, one foot out of the business, and he was still pissed off. You've got to respect that.

You know what I mean? You've got to respect that. Did you have to handle that conversation? Yes. But of course, being a wuss, I sent Erica in there first. Erica is incredible. When I know there's going to be a horrible conversation, I send her in. She takes a lot of the punches.

And then I come in, and they're usually either punched out or kind of half punched out. So by the time I get to them, and if I get to Taylor, there was no volume in range. It was just the words. But I said to him, like, listen, you know, you got to have faith in us and have trust. And, you know, it was, he's, this is why, by the way, this is why I said to Taylor, you should direct Wind River.

He's like, why? Because every time a director or an actor changes a word, you're like, this is bullshit. Like, this cannot be. Here's why. I'm like, you should direct it. And he did. And he became Taylor Sheridan director.

I literally, I gave him that idea because he was just so difficult with any changes that I do with his script from anyone. It was funny. That's a big change, though. And I think one of the other things that you and I've talked about in the past, and I was watching some of your panel stuff in the God, that stuff's just funny to begin with, because I started psyching myself out on how to pronounce your name because I watched so many different panels where everybody was getting it. It was just different guys

constantly. I'm like, wait a minute. Do I not? I thought I knew him a little. But there's a question where the moderator asks you about Sicario and says, you know, it would have made much more sense to have Emily Blunt's character be a man. And you just shoot him down immediately. You're like, actually, no. Like, no. Like, that doesn't make any sense. And I think it takes away from her story where what i was really worried about in the theater at the very end where i was like and again spoiler alert for everybody if you haven't seen sicario yet i don't even i don't even want to be friends

with you but i thought in that final scene i was like oh she's gonna have the redemption thing that's how they're gonna do it she's gonna shoot benicio and i was like i don't want that to happen because really it was her and it wasn't about a male female. And it was whoever that character was was going to be victimized. It was victimized like in every corner of that story. It was like, she was taken advantage of here. And so it wasn't really about that.

And it was just a more real ending instead of the wrap a bow up on it and make you feel happy on the way back to your car. And I wonder if there was anything, it sounds like the Benicio thing was a much bigger deal, but if there was ever any conversation about how that ending feels incomplete, but to me incomplete was much better. Oh, it was the argument. When we were trying to get the movie financed and studios were passing on it,

they're all saying the ending is too nihilistic, too bleak. And in fact, a major studio named Nameless, unfortunately, wanted to do the movie. And the studio said, you don't have to touch the script. You don't have to do anything. And it was a great deal. We were about to say it again. At the last minute, they said, I just got to see, I want to hear Emily's character and her worldview. You know, her worldview counter to Benicio's worldview. And I want to see recognition in Benicio's eyes that maybe she has a point and maybe she's right. the only time Denis, who is a total gentleman, was like, absolutely not. 100%. I'm not even going to talk to my actors about it. No chance. That is not this movie. This movie is, Benicio, it's a

land of wolves. And unfortunately, at this moment in her life, she's not a wolf. And that was the biggest argument. And the reason why most of the people passed on that was that ending. That was, that was our only real bump along the way, other than killing the kids. But that was more of a production thing at a time. But that was when there were moments when everyone was passing. I'm thinking myself,

how am I going to get this movie made? Thankfully we, this, this company called black label stuck with us and made the movie. We kept that ending. Yeah, I really, it would have changed. And the whole idea that you need Benicio to acknowledge her point of view at some point. Well, that's what we're there for.

Yeah. You know, like we, the audience, we get like, this sucks for you. This sucks everything that you just went through. But it felt a lot realer than her shooting him in the back. And I was worried i'm sitting there and i'm like don't don't do it don't do this thing and i was like yes they didn't do they didn't do the thing that i think so many other movies would have done and that's no in music there are rules i was talking about a musician buddy the other day and it's not a name drop so there's there's nothing cool there but he liked he likes country he hates rap i like rap i'm coming around on country in certain ways and i said you know the funny thing is that both sides could say well okay zannies and bottle service

like you guys say the same shit over and over again and you'd be like what are you guys doing country it's a sixer and a pickup and some girl you know it's like it's not like it's the same beats it's the same things but it's the same things, but it's in how you tell the story. And I feel like there are these rules so much with movie making. Is it because people are afraid to break the rules? Because then when the rules are broken, it's like, oh, wow, this is so amazing. But are the rules there in place in a way? Because that's really what we do want is that we don't want to be challenged when we're just consuming a story i don't you know that's a really really good question i think you fall

into complacency as storytellers because of these quote-unquote rules i don't um i i think that i i know that i became a much better producer when I started listening to my instincts and not trying to intellectualize something that was emotional. And I think that these rules are there isn't enough challenge to them, not because there are defenders of the rules, but because there's a laziness is probably too critical of a word, but it's a complacency. It's a, it's an easier thing to kind of fall into these systems. Now, I think that's different in family movies, certain family movies and, and television. And, and yes, I mean, I have kids and they're, I, one of the reasons why I love these, the older Disney movies or even new Disney movies, like, you know, even, you know, Toy Story, there is, um, I know I'm going to get now it's super elevated and it's funny within the structure, but I

do understand what I'm going to get. And that's okay. There's a comfort to that. But I think that in other, in so many other movies, people are just, they're afraid to put themselves out there because if they fail, it's them making that decision. And, and I think you go back on some comfort of rules, which I don't really understand. Failures. Um, you, you made a, made a great comment and something where you said, if you bomb in a movie, everybody knows, but if you fuck up a bank

transaction and some investment guy, like nobody, you your world knows but it's it's not on rotten tomatoes for the rest of your life what's the uh i don't know if the right question is what's the biggest failure but what's what's the movie where like in the process you go nope like this isn't gonna happen and it's just something you know that bothers you maybe still or maybe it was just a lesson. No, I, I, um, and again, these aren't just people. I don't know. These people are like friends and family. They always, if there's a movie that comes out, they always say like, what were you thinking? Like, did you try to make a bad movie? And I try to tell them, we go in there and everybody, you know, you're in there, you think, okay,

we're doing as smart as a job that we're doing on Sicario. I think the one that really broke my heart was this movie called seven son and you had stephen knight who wrote like piggy blinders and he's a great writer you had jeff bridges coming off of his academy award you had elisa vikander in one of her first roles you had julianne moore our production designer is won like six oscars we had John Dykstra did Star Wars as our visual. We had just, I would sit in these production meetings and go, look at this group of people. This is incredible. And we had a lot of money to make the movie. And I got to say within like

three weeks, I'm looking around the costumes and some of the choices and I'm like, we're doomed. Like we are doomed. And I was involved in all these conversations. And I think that one broke my heart the most. I think in retrospect, the director was in over his head. And if I had, if I was a little bit further on in my career, I probably would have said, freeze. Let's figure out maybe we need to move on from the director. I should have done that two, three weeks in. Now, I do feel a little bit like John Bolton, who comes out and says, oh, yeah, Donald Trump. And I'm like, where were you at during the interview?

So I get anyone. I sound like a total wuss in retrospect, but that one could have and should have been great. I feel like as a producer, I let down the studio. I let down Jeff Bridges, who I really try to get into the movie because he's one of my favorite all-time actors. That one killed me. That one crushed me. It could have been great. There are others

where I'm like, oh, in retrospect, maybe that wasn't a good movie to make, but that movie could have been great. Let's talk John Wick. The entire franchise has been a monster and wasn't a good movie to make but that movie could have been great let's talk john wick uh the entire franchise has been a monster and i would say legend has it that early on you did not think that was going to be the case in the first one oh yeah oh yeah i mean i don't i cannot emphasize enough that, you know, I just told this story about Seven's son, that we're day six of shooting. We haven't even shot a gun yet. And it's been five days of Keanu moping around his house after his wife dies.

And I'm like, what are we doing here? And then we finally have some dogs. And I'm looking at the kind of dogs stand in, our stuffed animals, as we're connecting. I'm going, this could be one of the worst movies I've ever made. And we made the movie. We had a fun time making it. I remember thinking to myself, okay, I'll come out.

I'll go straight to video or whatever it's called now i knew sicario was going to be good and we we showed the movie to everybody the same movie that came out we showed the movie to every single studio in town and they all passed um and not only did they pass i'll never forget this the the head of acquisitions for fox at the time. See, I know I'm not supposed to say names, but this one furies me. He was sitting like in the middle of the aisle. And he walked out halfway through the movie.

You know when someone walks out and everybody has to stand up and it gives people permission going, hold on, this guy's walking out. Maybe I can walk out. We lost it. So everybody passed. Lionsgate, God bless them, bought the movie for no money, no money up front. They gave us a big part of the back end. But they put together an incredible trailer, an incredible marketing campaign. Fantastic Fest in Austin. And they went bananas. And I was like, oh my God,

we're going to come out in the theater. To me, it was like, we're going to come out in the theater. This is incredible. And we came out and a lot of it was, our Rotten Tomatoes score was high and they were making fun of Keanu because he just came off with all these bombs. It was a little like kind of, who would have thought Keanu would make a good movie?

It was a little kind of snarky know, who would have thought Keanu would make a good movie? It was a little kind of snarky positivity. And then it grew in the afterlife and the ancillaries. And it became what it became. But I gotta tell you something,

Ryan, I swear to you, it was right after that movie ended, Keanu was like, I'm going to television. Because he thought it was going to be that bad.

He thought it was, like, did you guys think as soon as you were done, as everybody's passing, like this is a flop? No, we, but he did.

I mean, he was looking at other career options. That's, that's the part where the disconnect, I don't, I've just helped me follow that part of it. I think because it was the target for us to make it work was so small in terms of tone that when we wrapped, I think everybody, including Chad Stahelski, who's now directing the other ones, he went right to a second unit job in South Africa for the Sacha Baron Cohen movie. So in other words, he like went from directing a movie to go, I'm going to be a Sacha Baron Cohen second unit action director in South Africa. I think that we didn't know

what we had totally. And I remember when we previewed the movie for the first time, I'll never forget, we're in Orange County, and the audience, you know, the wife dies, the dog dies, and everyone was like, okay, what's this going? It's a little

slow. And then, all of a sudden, John Leguizamo, Michael Nyquist calls John Leguizamo's character. He goes, I heard you slapped my son. He goes, he stole John Wick's car and killed his dog. If you remember, Michael Nyquist goes, oh, the entire audience went fucking bananas. I mean, they went bananas. They laughed so hard and they like cheered. And I'm like, oh, my God. And everything we did after that point, everything they were in. And that's when we realized that there was a we hit the tone perfectly that was the thing we didn't we didn't know when we were making it we knew the action was gonna be cool but we had no idea the tone we hit so basically once the dog

is killed the audience is just in went nuts like you could do anything you wanted anything you want and the whole question of like because that's the other thing too there's a buy-in in that movie which is as someone i think he's gonna kill 85 people because the dog was killed that's just nonsense like we didn't know people would buy into that and people bought into that and i have is that the death is that the total is it 85 it's like 85 the second john mc2 was like 104 and like john mc3 is like 126 or something yeah oh we have posters we have posters fan posters that has every single kill what weapon they were killed by and where they were shot or staffed or whatever um but yeah no it was um that's what i'm like you know it's funny. People ask me about COVID and like, you know,

when is it going to, are you optimistic about it getting better in terms of making movies and people going to movies? And I always thought like, you have to be an optimist if you're a movie producer. Every day you have to wake up and go, this is going to be a great day. And I have proof, like wick, a movie that was

like at the end of our bench somehow has become this behemoth. And it's set my myself and my family up for a long time financially. And nobody thought that. And so you got it every day. I know it sounds ridiculous. I read a new script. I'm like, maybe this is the next one. know it sounds ridiculous i read a new script i'm like maybe this is the next one okay uh that was good that was that was really good because i remember that's not usually the type of movie that i like and then it was just something about it and i liked that it was slow at first like all right nice apartment nice house nice car you know we're like are they really gonna kill this dog and you're like oh wow these guys went for it and then it's it's weird it's weird how movies work where whatever your expectations are for it like the professionals my favorite case study and

expectations is that the way the professional was sold i remember i was in college and it was like the trailers were twice as fast as speed you know the non-stop from the beginning to end and it's it's not it's like an art house movie and this the first 20 minutes my roommates and i're like this sucks this movie sucks like because we were we were conditioned to believe that it was going to be kind of a cheesier action thing and then i left and go that's that's one of my favorite it's still to this day it's one of my favorite movies of all time because i professional right after once i figured out what it was i'm like this is amazing gary oldman i think it was like the first time

yeah the greatest performer ever i mean is gary oldman he's unbelievable and and it's just all of these things are perfect and there's all these different non-traditional relationships that that just make it all up. And it's got that New York city rawness to it. That felt, that felt great. But you know, it's funny.

You asked a question before, which I forgot to answer. And it kind of goes on what you're saying. Put aside the John Wick movies. If you look at a lot of the movies that we've done, there are people in rooms talking. And then there's like three, I would say two and a half action sequences. And what I've done as a producer, especially when you're independent,

you don't have a lot of money to make these movies. You really spend all the money on the action. And so the movies actually punch above it. Wait, they feel bigger than they are. And you asked about the town. I remember on Brooklyn's Finest, we didn't have money for any action and they sold the movie and it just felt like a drama. And so on the town, we all said, we got to make this action look great because we know in every TV spot in the trailer, it's going to feel like an action movie. You look at Sicario and Soldado

and town, even Wind River and a couple of movies that we have in post now, there's only a couple of action scenes, but they got to be cool. and it's kind of what you're saying about professional you know it's the action still like when it happens when he starts taking those people down the apartment building it's when he's hanging out it's awesome it's stuff that we still reference as like touch points we try to get jean-mino in every John Wick. We could never get a minute. But there's more coming, so... Alright, let's do some rapid fire here. Five questions. It's time for

five questions. Who is... You know what, just off of the Wick stuff, give me your favorite Keanu story, now that you've worked with him this much. You know, the stories of Keanu story now that you've worked with him this much you know the stories of Keanu being a good guy are a hundred percent a hundred percent true and you would say false I was like this podcast is going to be amazing no I think my favorite Keanu story is where we have a lot of um

developed meetings at his house, this beautiful house. He's lived in his house since the Matrix. It's on the map of the Hollywood Stars route. All the windows are open. It's on the hillside.

You're having these meetings and you hear, to the writers, I don't know why this was so funny his the doorbell rings and piano goes hello and he's like hi it's it's it's heligan and and suzette and we're from denmark we want to speak to? He's not here right now. Come on. You know where he is. Is this Keanu? No, it's not. Who is it?

Brad, his housemate. Like, Keanu's voice. Like, we know it's Keanu. He's like, I'll call you right back. And I remember going, Keanu, you've been Keanu Reeves for 30, you still haven't figured out how to do this yet? He goes, I don't know. I mean, he's just, he's that guy.

He is just, he is one of the most all-time. Listen, my son just broke his hand. My son, about six weeks ago, broke his arm, fell off a bike. 12-year-old kid, screws, plates, pins in his arm. Surgery during COVID, one of the worst things you could ever imagine. He was devastated. He's a big baseball player. And I emailed Keanu and I'm like, dude, he loves you. Can you just send him a text? And then literally five minutes later, there's a video that he sends me for my son that literally would make you cry. It was one of the greatest videos ever. And it was like, all I can say is he is as good as a guy. And I've been to three movies now. We're having more movies. He's as good as the guy as it gets. Okay. Is there an on-screen guy that's actually like a tough guy where guys are like, he's actually like,

if you're going to get into an argument with him, just a heads up. You mean physically? Yes. Like a kick your ass type yeah i'm look i'm sure actors aren't going around beating people up but i'm no but i mean in terms of like the like men's men real men um harrison ford harrison ford i did two movies with him um and he was this tough by the way i'm not talking about working with because he's a total pro, but physically just built like a bowling ball.

And even at his older age, he threw himself down steps. It was like his, it was a movie called Firewall. And his stunt man was Terry Leonard, uh, man was Terry Leonard. Our stunt coordinator was Terry Leonard. Terry Leonard was his stunt double during all the great Raiders movies, especially including the one where he like goes under the car and truck and Raiders of the Lost Ark. And Terry Leonard's knees were so shot that one day you would have like a

brace on one knee and the other on the other knee. And so the, and so, so, um, Harrison kind of did and designed and did all the stunts. And I couldn't believe how tough this guy was. Now, everyone talks about Keanu, and that Keanu is tough. I mean, Keanu does all that stuff. It's incredible what an athlete Keanu is in terms of shooting, stabbing, driving cars. But in terms of physically, Harrison Ford is... I've always said this.

Exactly how you hope Harrison Ford would be is exactly how he is when you meet him. You walk away going, there you go. That's Harrison Ford. He is Indiana Jones. Is there a rule when you're pitching a movie that for the lead, if it's going to be a big movie, that you have to say it's going to be either Pitt, DiCaprio, or Christian Bale?

You know, yes. DiCaprio, we don't even talk about because he works with the same three. The names, it was, and it always changed. It's always Pitt, Matt Damon, Bale. And then there was a time that I call it hard bender. It was Tom Hardy, Michael Fassbender for everything. And so they float in and out. But the Mount Rushmore is Brad, Matt Damon, Leo, and yeah, probably Bale.

And when Bale and Damon get cast like the same time on the same movie, I'm like, come on. Like, loosen up for some of us. I mean, Jesus Christ. Because there was a longest time where between the Marvel movies and everything else, like all these guys weren't available. It was awful. All right, final one.

On your credit list, it says Insomnia. Yeah. With Pacino and Christopher Nolan. i think it's before people understood like some of the stuff that nolan was going to do do you have a nolan story or is that credit i don't know if the credit because i can't figure out what some of these credits i think it gets back to some of the ep stuff where people like oh that guy won a grammy or or not a grammy i'd be like oh he won an oscar and be like well what was he an ep like i don't i don't understand it or not a Grammy. I'd be like, Oh, he won an Oscar and be like, well,

what was he an EP? Like, I don't, I don't understand it. So I, um, I was an executive at the time of Warners and I'm living in West Los Angeles and my friends and I go into the promenade to watch college football on a Saturday, um, have too much to drink. And I'm like, I'm going to walk home. Like, and it's a far walk and I'm about halfway home. And I'm like, I'm going to walk home. And it's a far walk. And I'm about halfway home. And I'm like, this is getting ridiculous. I go into this theater called the New Art Theater.

And they were playing this Swedish film called Insomniac. I watched the movie. And I'm like, God, this is such a cool idea for a remake. So I pitch it to my boss. I kind of make it sound like it's like lethal weapon um we get the remake rights he figures out what it's about and he's like i don't there's no chance for ever making this movie you have no money to make to to to hire a writer so hire a scale writer i hire the the wife of one of my colleagues who who's a comedy writer, Hilary Sutz. And she writes Insomnia. And right off the bat, we get Jonathan Demme and Harrison Ford, coincidentally.

And it looks like we have them, especially Jonathan Demme. And then Demme passes. And unfortunately, what happens in studios is a lot of broken hearts happen. In other words, everyone will be so excited about a certain version of the movie. That version of the movie falls apart and you can never get the executive or the studios around to like another version, you know?

And so Insomniac went sideways. I watched this movie called Memento and it didn't come out yet. It was out. And I was like, it's funny about Memento. I really liked it, but I thought, God, this is such a, it was like come out yet. It was, it was out. And I was like, it's funny about memento. I really liked it, but I thought, God, this is such a, it was like a cinematic trick. I got inspired, emotional. And we, um,

we hired Nolan and then memento came out, blew up. I leave Warners to become a producer, um, genius that I am. And, and the only, it's so funny there was a there was a period of time for like a month that I kept a journal like I don't know why I did it and it happened to be the time when I first met Chris Nolan and I had dinner with him and I'm like I don't know where this I found my journals like I don't know why this guy is so self-assured, but like he's going to be a huge director because he's so, he's already in his mind. Not, there's no arrogance.

He was the most self-assured man I've ever met in my entire life. And the thing about Chris, God bless him, is he remembers everybody that was there early on in his career. So I could be at a room with all these famous fancy pants people. When he sees me, he will go out of his way to make me feel warm and home and make me feel comfortable because he remembers everybody that helped him out.

And that's the thing about Chris. And conversely, I think he also remembers everyone that also didn't help him out, which is probably bad for a lot of people out there as well. That's, Oh my God. I can't believe. So basically if you hadn't gone and watched college football and had a ton of beers and walked home, insomnia is never made.

You know, I gotta tell you, you know, I, I hate when people like do this, like kind of self, you know, this kind of fake modesty about luck.

It is so much about luck. You know what I mean? Just so much about luck. I've had so much luck in my life and my career, small and large. And you know, you just can't, at a certain point, you just kind of, you roll with it. I mean, you still work hard, you still do everything, but man, I've just had some things where I'm like, where even some of my friends have been like, damn, you are a lucky bastard.

I'm like, I know. I don't have to say. And I embrace it, and I thank God for it every day. That was awesome. I can't thank you enough, man. My pleasure, Ryan. And I know we'll have more things to talk about in the future. I can't thank you enough, man. Uh, and I know, uh, we'll have more things to talk about in the future. I'm a huge fan of you guys. I can't tell you it's finally, you know, I'm at the Jersey shore. So we moved here a month ago. We have a house on the shore

all summer. And I told everybody this weekend, I was doing this. It was like the only time my friends here actually got excited. They could care less about all the movies. I was doing this. It was like the only time my friends here actually got excited. They could care less about all the movies. Well, tell them thanks, man. That makes me feel great. I love today's pod. I hope you guys did too. Please subscribe, rate, and review. Let everybody know.

And then we'll be back on the sports next one. All right. So be safe and we'll talk to you in a couple days. Thank you. you