The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Kliff Kingsbury Plus Tales From the Couch | The Ryen Russillo Podcast

Episode Date: February 25, 2020

Russillo is joined by Arizona Cardinals head coach Kliff Kingsbury to discuss his departure from Texas Tech, going to the Arizona Cardinals, Kyler Murray's NFL debut, coaching Patrick Mahomes, his time in the NFL, and more (6:53). Then Ryen runs through some NBA games he's watched, including Cavaliers-Heat and Bucks-Wizards. He talks Duncan Robinson, plus-minus, Brook Lopez, and more (36:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, what's up? It's Tuesday. The Ryan Russillo podcast, part of the Ringer Podcast Network, is brought to you by State Farm. Just like basketball, the game of life is unpredictable. Talk to a State Farm agent and get a teammate who can help you navigate the unexpected, like the Suns going into utah last night and smashing the jazz and it wasn't even like a great devin booker game it was a rubio revenge game i don't even know if you do a podium game for that one but it was uh it was great for the suns and that's what you always try to do right because really you're looking at it through okay the sun's no longer a contender they're not part of the western conference storyline

so whenever you feel slighted about your team not, the Suns no longer a contender. They're not part of the Western Conference storyline. So whenever you feel slighted about your team not being talked about, there's usually a very simple answer. It has nothing to do with geography. It has nothing to do with the culture. It has nothing to do with what the people are like. It has everything to do with did you lose to a team that has expectations and the Jazz have expectations. I'm so worried I'm headed to Salt Lake

tomorrow. Seriously. That's a true story. So that was an unpredictable Phoenix winenix win in utah when you expected utah to kind of come back i do love when utah loses we did this with bill but when they lost uh the game prior to that i was like well hey that was a back-to-back like they just had a week off no one like some of you are so soft that you think no one can ever compete or win on the second of a back-to-back. So speaking of people that aren't soft, State Farm isn't soft because they get your back like a spot from behind. Get a teammate who can help you navigate the unexpected. Talk to a State Farm agent today.

Today's plan, Cliff Kingsbury, the first year head coach of the Arizona Cardinals. Not a great record, but actually a great story. Fired from his alma mater, Texas Tech. I've been to Lubbock once and looked like he was headed to USC to be the OC. And then he ended up being a head coach for the Arizona Cardinals. So we're going to do that. And then after that, we are going to do a bunch of NBA things that I wrote down and I'm not, I've had better rants. So I don't even know if this

is really much of a rant and it's a little bit about Brooke Lopez and the dirty little secret is that this ran is the Brooke Lopez stuff. It's not even a Brooke Lopez rant anymore. Cause I had to dial it back a little, the Brooke Lopez theory, the premise is even a Brooke Lopez rant anymore because I had to dial it back a little. The Brooke Lopez theory, the premise is still accurate. It's just that he's not playing as well as I would need him to be for this thing to really hammer home. But I'm not doing the, hey, I wrote it down, so now it has to be a segment thing because I stopped doing that once you get to a certain level. Because when you're younger, you're like, well, of course I'm doing this segment. I prepped it.

I'm like, yeah, that segment kind of sucks. You're like, eh, yeah, but I wrote a bunch of stuff down. I have to do it. Like, yeah, but it's not good. It's not a good segment. Yeah. But I look at, look at all my notes. My, one of my all time favorites working with talk show hosts that always seem to find a way to pretend he was too, I read something he'd said in the interview. I'm not going to say his name, but he was like, yeah, you know, a guy guy some of you probably never heard of him but his name was ryan rossolo he helped me out and i was like wait a minute what and at that point i'd been with scott for like six years so i read that was like that's actually a diss that was not a compliment even though um i did help the person out quite a bit so uh you're welcome Shouts to that guy. But he was doing a segment where it was all based on a quote that he had heard. And I was listening to him pitch the segment to his producer before

his show got started. And again, this is a long time ago and he was going through, he's going through it. I was like, Hey, did you hear the rest of the presser? I go, that's, that's the opposite of what that guy was saying in the press conference. You're listening to that very simple cut. And a lot of us make this mistake. There's been times where I've seen a headline or I've seen a cut, like, how does that guy say that? And then I'll be like, go check the entire thing and see what happens. And more easily, more than half the time, when you get the full scope of it, you go,

oh, okay, well, now I get why he was saying that. And I shouldn't be this upset. Nobody should be this upset. And so I wasn't like doing the, hey, I'm older or i've been here longer like your segment sucks idea it was straight up like hey if you do that just so you know you're missing the entire point of what that quote actually was and the guy just looked at me shrugged was like man it's a good quote though so i'm just gonna do it i was like all right cool all right before we get to cliff kingsbury and some amazing nba i don't even know what we'll

call this one kyle nba tidbits i'm writing it down does that sound uh it's going right in the description no don't put tidbits i feel like that doesn't get used enough or maybe it's used properly because it's not that great all right right. Get to the interview. Anyway, remember how things work before social media? Oh, I saw this ad recently on TV. This is a good ad. Once upon a time, liking something a friend shared meant you were having an actual conversation. Now, our social lives have become superficial popularity contests for fake internet points. Whoa.

Hitting home, huh? We leave likes and comments, but how often do we put the phone down and just hang out? Luckily, there's still Miller time. It's the original social media. Before smartphones complicated things, there was Miller time. There's nothing pretentious about it, just a few friends connecting over the original light beer. So next time you're hanging out, why not share a few Miller lights? hanging out, why not share a few Miller Lights? When I get together with all my friends,

the first thing they say is, phones in a hat, Miller Lights on the table. When there's a great tasting 96 calorie Miller Light, friends should always come before followers. Here's the original light beer. Here's to the original social media. It's Miller time. Celebrate responsibly. Miller Brewing Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 96 calories and 3.2 carbs for 12 ounces. I could see you being a Miller light guy, Kyle, or at least now. I mean, you can't really say no because you just read the ad. Of course not. I got in trouble in middle school for wearing one of those shirts.

Didn't even really know why. The great tasteless filling? Yeah, it was Miller light shirt. I think it said Miller time, but I got in trouble because middle school for wearing one of those shirts. Didn't even really know why. The great tasteless filling? Yeah, it was Miller Lite shirt. I think it said Miller Time, but I got in trouble because I was like 12. I love just dudes that were 12 and didn't care. Were you like a bully at 12, Kyle? No, I was like a wrong place, wrong time type of guy, you know. Were you tough, though, compared to the other 12-year-olds?

I don't know. I'd say about as a median, you know. I don't think you. Were you always this big? Like, you're a decent-sized guy. Yeah, I was pretty tall. I could see you getting into a few fights and winning outside of Cumberland Farms or something. Cumbies, yeah, man.

Cumbies, yeah, man. Cumbies, yeah. I'm going to go get some Sprees cigarettes and start biting 13-year-olds. All right, let's do this. Cliff Kingsbury. Cliff, I was lucky enough to be in Lubbock maybe for the greatest night in the history of the city when it comes to football there when they knocked off number one Texas, Nicole McCoy. I've always had kind of a weird love for the place because that night, that weekend was unlike anything else. And, you know, it's your school, you come back,

you coach there for a bunch of years and then, you know, look, it's a competitive business, you're fired. And I always kind of think of this because my dad will say this to me, like, I'm like you a bit in that, you know, I'm not married and I'm, you know, it's not like I'm coming home to some family. So when you make these big life decisions or things happen, what was that like for you to kind of go through those emotions of losing the job at the place you would play yeah you you know that i mean being there and having the dreams of winning the big 12 and taking that program to the heights it had been to you know that that that was the thought and that's all i'd ever focused on and put all my energy into. And then all of a sudden that's done and it just didn't work out.

So really quickly you're down because you're going to miss those relationships and miss those players that you brought out to coach out there and be a part of that deal. And then you want to be a part of another team and you're looking quickly to do it somewhere else and then do it at a high level and get yourself back in the game. So it moved fast after that. There were some opportunities out there.

I was obviously fortunate enough to land with Arizona and kind of go from there. How hard do you think it was for Kirby to look at you? And that was your AD, Kirby Hoka, who I talked to a bunch when he came on after the playoff committee stuff. How tough do you think that was for him? I know it was tough. I mean, we had a great relationship.

He believed in me. I think he knows what I'm about and how I wanted to get that done and how much it meant to me. But it was time. We'd reached a point where we hadn't been able to kind of get it over the hump. You know, through our efforts out there, loved the staff, loved everybody we had. We just, we didn't win enough games and everybody understood that.

And so I know it was, it was hard on him, but he did what he had to do. And he's a tremendous athletic director. All you can see all the success of all the programs out there. And, um, I'm excited about,

you know, what they can do. It takes, takes a little bit forward. I think, uh, they have a good foundation and hopefully they can build off of it. Right.

So that was November of that year. And as we all know, especially here in LA, you're okay. You know, look, it didn't work out head coach. Now go back to coordinator and it was going to be USC as we all know. And then very shortly after that, it was a head coach of the Arizona Cardinals. So as you just said, like all these things were happening, what was that moment like of, okay, you know, I'm a young guy. I don't think you were 40 at the time and you're trying to navigate the next move. And seriously, looking back at the timeline and getting ready for this interview, I mean, this stuff had to have been happening so fast where maybe even a surprise to

you. It really was. It really was. There, there were a bunch of opportunities, uh, out there, but I knew immediately USC was, was a tremendous opportunity. I knew the type of weapons they had. I loved Coach Hilton, loved what they're about, loved what I thought they could be offensively. So, you know, took that opportunity, and then these other things started happening all across NFL,

different opportunities, whether it was OC or head coach. And I'm fortunate enough to land this gig here and have just enjoyed the heck out of it. It's been a real blessing. Does it, you know, USC fans wanted you in LA because it was going to help their team. I mean, you know, people are selfish. That's how this thing works. I was always a little surprised at people not understanding it.

Like, look, head coach in the NFL versus the OC in the Pac-12. They're two different things. Were you surprised a little bit at the backlash of it all? A little bit at the backlash of it all a little bit but i think it's it's always expected anytime you know there's change or people want to jump on a high horse about principal and things of that nature and i understand that i just it was too good of an opportunity to pass up when you're talking about kind of a one year see how it goes deal as opposed to a four- or five-year deal making a ton of money at the highest level possible. I understand the people that were upset,

but for me, I had to do what was best for myself and our family, and so I chose the Cardinals. So what was that interview process like? Because that was the offseason where it felt like, and it wasn't a theory here, it was real, is that every owner, every GM, it looked like, how can we get the next young offensive mind? You certainly fit that mold.

What was that interview process like with them asking you questions for them to figure out if you were going to be the guy to be the head coach? Yeah, that was the rave, and it kind of still is. Kyle Shanahan, Sean McV sean lee bay young innovative play caller young innovative quarterback developer um and that's what a lot of people were looking for and i i kind of fit that that mold um and the discussions were about hey let's bring in a veteran dc and's pair you up with that. And let's see what we can build. And I was fortunate enough to kind of come along in that, in that time frame.

And obviously it worked out for me. Did they ask you anything that surprised you during the interview? Not, no, not really. Obviously, you know, the record was what it was at Texas Tech. I think they understood that they had a plan in place like I said it wasn't like I was going to be coaching defense

they wanted to pair it up similar to the Ram situation you have Sean doing his offense Wade was doing it defensively they had a great run out there that was a model that was hot at that time unfortunate for me. It was and allowed me to get my opportunity in the NFL.

Now, you're a laid-back guy. I've met you a few times. And one of the things, and look, I've always liked you and I've met you, so some people could listen to this and be like, all right, you're a little biased, because the reaction was, oh, this guy couldn't win in Lubbock,

and now he's going to be the head coach. And then I would go, okay, well, we know he was hired because of offense. They certainly scored enough points. Yes, the defense was not great. And there's definitely spots in the Big 12 where that can be said about a lot of programs. But when you coach Keenum, Manziel, Baker for a year, and you have Mahomes, Davis Webb, who was a third-rounder. When you have all of those guys, was it ever – and I know it's one of those things like how much do I pay attention to all the stuff flying around, but were you surprised that – it was almost this anti-young offensive mind backlash that you were grouped into

when your resume, I believe, is a lot better than other offensive coaches that also get head coaching jobs? Yeah, I mean, I kind of knew it was coming, obviously. I don't know if it had ever been done when a college coach had been fired and then got an NFL head coaching job. I don't let it affect me. I was just excited about the opportunity. I was big on,

hey, it doesn't matter how you get there. It's what you do when you get there. So that has been my focus, I think. I'm really proud of, like you said, what we've done offensively with the players I've been able to develop. And I've been very fortunate to be around some great players, including the quarterback we have now in Arizona. But I try to keep all that other stuff outside of kind of my space

and just work as hard as I can to be the best I can be and do the best job I can. But as far as backlash, things like that, you know, you know what's coming when you're in that situation, but you just try to stay above it and do what you got to do. Yeah. I always, I always love whenever the public figure does something and then you just want to be like, so let me just get this straight. Like all of you guys would have turned down one of the 32 jobs.

It's almost too easy of an argument at that point, you know? So you kind of just, just let it go, but it is what it is. I understand it in this day and age that people like to kind of jump on that type of platform and that type of high horse, if you will, but we moved on from it. Right. No, you have. You have. moved on from it. Right. No, you have, you have. Okay. So you're, you're in charge of this team now. And again, you have a front office and you know, people, it's, it's amazing lesson, the Kyler Murray quote, right? When you're recruiting them, you, you rave about them. And then you're like, oh man, like maybe I should just never say anything so that it can't be spun back around. But was Kyler always the guy for you before you took him number one?

You know, in my mind, in perfect world, it was. But I knew why I was brought in. They had their top ten pick in Josh. Tremendous talent. Great skill set. You know, got banged around his first year behind, you know, kind of a tough offensive line, tough situation with different play callers, all these things.

So they had brought me in with the idea of developing Josh and improving the offense, and I knew that, and that's what I was going about doing. And as the draft process went on, Steve and Michael got to start taking a look and digging into what Kyler was all about and how unique of a skill set he had. It started to go that way and picked up steam. And then we get to a point where we just think this move is the move that has been made for the Arizona Cardinals.

You don't get a shot at many guys like this and he has a chance to kind of change the entire organization if it goes the way we hope it will. Can we go back to that first game then? Because, you know, we're all watching and we want to watch the number one pick. We want to see your offense and you're down 17-3 at the half. What was going through your head then? Yeah, literally, I'm not exaggerating. I was thinking, I can't believe I just bought that house.

I'm going to be here two games, and they're going to fire me. Because it was as bad as I'd ever seen. I mean, we couldn't get a yard, and we couldn't complete a pass, and every pass was knocked down. And I told everybody, well, he doesn't have passes that are down. It doesn't matter that he's 5 five tenths he can manage them so yeah that was about the highest anxiety I've ever had on the sideline just because it's truly anything we try to do is a complete disaster but luckily the second half got better and we were able to come back and have a decent

show yeah that was that was a rough 30. And I just kept thinking about poor Steve up there in the press box with the owner who probably wanted to jump off the balcony. But luckily, it worked out. So you really had these thoughts as you're getting ready to get ready for the next offensive series going, I should have rented.

Like, this actually creeps into your head. I remember thinking, like, I cannot believe I spent that much on a house. Like, I'm screwed on this deal because this is going to be a short stay. I don't know what we're going to do. It was just a disaster.

Luckily, we fought through it and got better as it went. Still a long ways to go, but I think we're on the right track. Yeah, the greatest tie maybe in your personal career. You'll always know. I'll take it all day long, no doubt. You're a player's coach.

Everything I've read about it is you – I don't know if it's just your personality or if it's the fact that you did play, a cup of coffee in the NFL and all that kind of stuff. What do you think is important as far as managing the emotions of 50 plus guys for an entire season and trying to make sure that you get through to all them because that's going to be the most challenging thing when it talk when it comes to those numbers like not everybody's buttons get pushed the same exact way so how have you been able to kind of develop this thing where it feels like this roster already

respects you despite the fact this was your first year yeah i think first and foremost you know you show them you know what you're talking about if they know that that you can help them on that level that you know expertise and and you know offense or play calling can help them be successful then that gives you a lot of street credit and work ethics huge i think if they know they know you're putting it in, getting there before them, staying there after, and you're all about taking this organization and their talents as far as they'll go, I think that goes a long way.

And I try to get to know the player on an individual basis. I'm big on each guy. I have a story. Each guy likes to be coached a certain way. How do we, like you said, how do we reach them? How do we press their buttons? I take a lot of pride in that, but you mentioned earlier,

I'm a single guy. I can spend a lot of time in the office. I can spend a lot of time getting to know those guys, talking to them, taking them to dinner, different, different things that, that maybe some guys who have families or different things like that aren't,

aren't able to do with their time. Do you, do you, did they ask you to throw or are you afraid to next to kyler he makes me look bad i still throw but the only one that kind of has the balls that talk trash and fits he always makes fun of my throw motion but yeah i don't i don't like throwing next to kyler he's pretty freaky with with the hard talent but i'll get in there um swing around every now and then,

but it doesn't look too good anymore. Will you work out with them or do you wait until they're gone? I'm early. I'm early. I'm before they get in there. I make sure they know I'm in there before they get in there too.

I don't want to challenge them. I'm all about just aesthetics. There's zero flexibility in my workouts. So it's kind of, it's pretty weak comparatively speaking to what they're doing. Right.

But I think anybody, you know, you hit 40 recently. So it's just, if I feel good, sure it's off 40, then, you know, mission accomplished.

I think it's really, everybody's talking about it. I'm hanging in there. You know, a single guy, man, you're still working it. You got to do

differentiation. That's what it is. You got to do differentiation. That's what it is. You poor thing. I have so much sympathy for you. So how, I could ask the simple question and go like, how much is Fitz buying in, set the tone for us in the locker room, because that's everything I've read, everything I've heard. Is there anything specific where you and Larry Fitzgerald early on

had a conversation where it was him knowing how important his role was going to be for everybody else to buy in? I think once he saw it come to fruition, I made the mistake of not really executing our offense the way I wanted to run in preseason. I wanted to sell him a surprise. We were going to jump out week one, and it was going to just wow everybody,

and it obviously backfired in that regard. So it took about the first month for everybody to get a feel for it. And even as a coaching staff, hey, what do we get at? What can we maximize personnel-wise? And I think once Fitz saw that, he saw how talented

a quarterback can be and what this can be in a short period of time. I think that's when you really saw the light turn on. And Sid's going to give you everything he's got, whether he believes it or not. He was going to bust his ass, show up every day, give you everything. That's who he is as a pro. But I think he really started to have fun enjoying our offense, how we install and we practice.

And it definitely helps when a guy like that is all in. Let's talk a little bit more about Kyler here. And that is, you know, it's a rookie. It's somebody that you want to make it. Like, I always have this joke. We've gone back years. Like, when the college coordinator gets fired, the next guy comes in and says,

oh, we're going to start chucking it down the field. Like, nobody ever goes, hey, we really want to dial this back. Like, no D coordinator ever takes over. And it's like, yeah, I want to be less aggressive. But it's still, you know But it's still a first year guy processing NFL defenses and really how fast all this stuff is moving is kind of its own topic. But how do you balance

the, I want to make sure Kyler's 100% comfortable with the game plan, but also pushing him so that he's grown through those first 16 games? That's a great question. We knew we wanted to have success with him early and try to build up confidence and things of that nature. So early on in the season, it was more spread things,

things he was accustomed to, things he liked. And then we were able, as the season went on, he got more comfortable to put different things in and kind of expand the playbook. And like I said earlier, just figure out who we were. And we were better with multiple tight ends. We were better on different sets than what we started as. But I'm big on week in, week out.

I give kind of a game plan. I give him plays throughout the practice. And hey, if you don't like him, we're getting him out. So I don't want to run anything that he isn't absolutely in love with. Because I've been doing this long enough that if the quarterback doesn't like it at all, it's not going to work. I just think it's the greatest play of all time. But if he's not feeling it, it's not going to work.

So I want things in that he likes. And as the season went on, our communication got a lot better. I feel like by the end, we were really tailoring it to him and operating at a high level. When I first saw him at A&M, I was like, oh my God. I remember Avery Johnson played with the Spurs, head coach of Alabama's basketball team. Avery and I would talk every now and then because he was working at ESPN,

and he was telling me about Kyler. He was like, you've got to see this guy. The first time he ever took off and ran, I went, okay, that's a different gear. I'm telling you, Lamar was different in a way that made people miss where you're standing in front of him and he would make you miss. But Kyler's elusiveness, his 0-60 or whatever it is, how tempting is it to want to do that more, but also knowing that eventually that stuff catches up to you,

even though it feels like no one ever gets a clean hit on him? Because it's such an unbelievable weapon and talent. Like, I really think he's that special. But that's going to be something you're constantly trying to figure out, like the long plan for that part of his game. There's no doubt. There's that fine line. And he does have that acceleration.

He's the quickest guy on the field, which is so rare at that position. But when he takes off, it's like nothing I've ever seen. That combination of that ability with with the throwing ability when you're talking quick release i can see touch velocity and all the things you can do is just it's just unique and it's a combination that that can really take him to to high heights if you will um as he continues to develop and become accustomed to the nfl game but we're always going to walk that fine line of, hey, you've been small your entire life. You know how to protect yourself. But let's get what we can get and make sure we always find the soft spot when the play

is over. Now, the best way to describe the spread, and I'll admit, look, I did not play the position. I don't understand things that you guys see. I'm not watching it with somebody who's been coached their whole life. I'm not watching it with somebody who's been coached their whole life. I'm not watching the all 22. You know, a lot of the NFL analysis I think is some kind of silly from, from us because we don't even know if like a corner got beat or if it was the safety that screwed things up. But when I first seen, you know, the spread taken over college football going back 10 plus years, it was described as pasta. Like there's, there's pasta, but there's a million

different versions of it. So is there any way of explaining sort of on the surface level for those that don't understand it as deeply as like what you're doing versus what Sean's doing versus what Zach's doing or what LeFleur's doing in that you all get lumped together as if you're running the exact same playbook. And there are different versions of the Shanahan tree that I think are connected, but then you eventually kind of like see the game the way you individually see the game. Can you help explain like what some of those differences and similarities are

the way you try to put together an offense? Yeah. I mean, it's, it's hard to do. Cause everybody does take, you know, their tree they came from and expand upon and do different things. And it's, it's a league of, of, you know, imitation and every week I look at all, and expand upon it and do different things. And it's a league of imitation. Every week I try and look at all 32 offenses on Monday and fly through them and figure out,

hey, what can we install that people are doing out there and what can we implement that looks good on tape this week? So it's always evolving. It's always changing. So I don't have a good answer for that. I do know that everybody takes it from wherever they learned it from, and they put their own stone and add their own things. I'd say Sean and Kyle are at the cutting edge of that. I mean, I watch them week in, week out.

I'm baffled of the things they can get done and their play calls and the shifts and motions and the quicks and all the things they do. And you can see how it's affected the league. I mean, those guys are on the two-hole back-to-back, and they've got to roll them. They've definitely taken what they learned at different places and extended upon it. and you can see how it's affected the league. Those guys are on the two-hole back-to-back. They got to roll them. They've definitely taken what they learned at different places and extended upon it.

Yeah, I was really excited about that question, but it's impossible to answer it in this format. Even if you want to. I wish I had more for you, but I have no clue how to even approach that one. Yeah, all right. Look, I gave it a shot there. Okay, how about this?

Has this offensive explosion, has it made it easier to go, well, you know, I don't need a top 10 quarterback. Like, give me like a top 15 guy, and I'm going to figure out a way to get some numbers, which has definitely been said about some guys, but I'm not going to ask you to comment about other teams' quarterbacks, whether or not they're overrated. Has it made it easier to kind of just plug somebody in, or has it actually made it harder to evaluate who's actually really good

or even average because everybody's putting up these kinds of numbers? Yeah, I think it blurs the lines a little bit. You still want that dominant player at that position. I think you see that when you have a guy like Lamar winning MVP. You have a guy like Patrick winning Super Bowl and 2-0 MVP. Those are when

you have the freaks at that position in this style of offense. That's when you take it to the whole other level. You still want that dominant player. You're right. There's some great offensive lines that are, you know, plugging some guys in that, that are putting up big numbers and playing at a super high level.

You know, you can win to a certain level, but it definitely blurs the lines in evaluation at times. But you know, when you see, you know, the Russells and the Lamars and the Patrick's and those guys can take that type of offense to a whole different stratosphere. Yeah, yeah, no doubt. Okay, speaking of Mahomes, how proud are you of just watching what this guy is where it's not insane when we think, hey, in 10 years,

are we going to think this is the guy that's been the best ever to play the position? Like, that's not even a stupid statement, and it would be almost any other, you know, hey other two-year guy in, oh yeah, he might be the best ever. How proud are you of this guy knowing you had him and love him? Yeah, incredibly proud.

It sounds cliche, but it's how he's handled it all. I knew he was a freak talent-wise. I knew he was a phenomenal player. I thought a lot of the stuff he did in college, even a lot of people didn't see it, I don't think, would translate just because it was so freaky. I watched him play against LSU,

these tough teams, and throw for 400, 500 yards kind of by himself at times. I felt like he had a good chance to translate early when he went to that situation with Andy, going from 27 to 10. He ended up on a really good team. They surrounded him with great players. I thought that he could play at a high level.

I don't know if anybody could have expected this, what he's done so far, but you watch how he handles it all. You watch how his teammates react to him. The humility, always deferring to teammates and coaching staff and things of that nature. It's been awesome. That's why I don't see it slowing down.

I think he's got the goods. He's a brilliant football mind on top of it. He's going to have a heck of a run there. What's your best Mahomes story? Because I remember asking somebody about it, one of our writers here, Kevin Clark, who was like, no, the GM of the Chiefs honestly was saying, this is the best player I've ever seen, and he still was behind Alex Smith at that point.

What's your favorite kind of hanging out with the guys when people are just bugging you about Mahomes stuff? Yeah, I think, you know, the very first scrimmage we ever had in Lubbock, he threw five touchdowns, and he didn't have a clue what the plays were or anything. He was just running around making plays, and we knew he was special. His high school coach would tell me all the time, you know, I thought I was kind of hot stuff. I'd work with Johnny and had Case and had Baker

and his high school coach would tell me I know he's coaching good ones but you've never had anything like this. I'm like alright what do you know? This type deal. You'd watch him basketball. He'd throw 30 on somebody. You'd watch him baseball. He'd pitch. He'd hit home runs. He'd do it all. You'd watch him football. I went to his

one high school game that I was allowed to come to, and he had seven touchdowns. I think it was like my first three quarters. And it's just like he's just a dominant, dominant athlete at whatever he does. But I think just the fact that a high school coach really and truly saw all this and knew that this was all coming for anybody else has always been cool. And you guys are probably rolling your eyes a little bit only because you've heard this from every single high school coach.

No question. Right. Yeah. I mean, I can't tell you how many times we've heard the next Wes Walker and the next this and the next that. And, you know, he said it as it was, you know, plain as day. Like, I know you've coached some pretty good ones, Coach, but you've never seen anything like this you know he was spot on because the kid can do things that that nobody can do and it's it's uh

it's just been fun to watch it really is and i uh i you know i would catch your games depending on you know the cycle of the saturday schedule and the one thing like that i i watched and when i was hearing like different teams talk about him and again nobody thought it was even going to be this um I was always like man he throws some bombs just kind of up into the air and like let's see what happens and he did it early in some games and that was the kind of thing I was like how is he ever like how would any coach like trust this guy to do that kind of stuff but the crazy thing is like that it, it did work way more than I thought that it would. And then he's cleaned up that part of it.

Like there's never, every throw seems like there's a purpose. Every throw seems like it's the right read. And yeah, you know, we can argue about a pick here or there, but for the most part, that is not the idea that he's a bad decision maker would be insane now when at times I thought maybe he was a little too risky, but maybe that was also because the defense wasn't exactly locked up down then. And he was like, look, I just got to get the ball down the field. Yeah, no doubt. I mean, he's, he's progressed tremendously, you know, on and off the field.

You see how he handles himself and his teammates, but he, he, he will always be the guy who's going to push the limitations on taking shots. And that's why, you know, everybody loves him because you never know what type of throw you're going to see. And the play is never over with him either. I mean, he decides not to have those guys hanging off of him and he's able to push the ball 60 yards down the field and just do, do things that normal quarterbacks can't do.

All right. I'm going to end with, with a couple more here. Just because I know that you originally were a six round pick of the pats in 03 do you have a and i like asking this because i've for whatever reason i've worked with a bunch of guys that like either were long-term backups or were up for a couple years a lot of guys blame the system they'll blame the coordinator um and you know every now and then a guy will be like i just look i just wasn't good enough when was the the first like wake up call moment where you may have been talking to somebody that you were close to going, I may not be a long-term NFL quarterback. I mean, I think, I honestly think the first late time I was ever around Tom and you watch,

this is how you're, it 4-3 I think 0-3 you were a rookie you were a rookie in 0-3 yeah his first year was 0-1 so 0-1 0-2

it was like his third or fourth year but his mastery of like the protections what he was doing at the line of scrimmage even then and the accuracy

with the throws and the timing I was like dude I'm never gonna catch this guy like that was the thought I mean it was that good and it was that on spot and it was that on spot.

And it was like you weren't going to outwork him. If he was there before you were going to get there, you were staying there later than you were going to stay. And then the work ethic in the weight room, on the practice field, the way he communicated with people, it was just like I'd never seen anything like it. And I thought I worked hard coming in. And I think, honestly, just seeing him, I'm like this. I mean, I didn't know at the time he was going to be the greatest ever, but still, you're like, yeah, I'm going to have a hard time catching this dude.

Because it was at that elite of a level. And it's obvious from day one when you're around that guy. So did you actually like think maybe on your way up to Foxborough where you're like, okay, look, I was drafted late. He was drafted late. Like, let's see what this guy's get. Like, was there a 1% part of you that was thinking, I may be the starting quarterback for the Patriots in a couple years if this goes my way?

I mean, I think, I mean, we're all confident coming out. You know, I mean, you got to be in that position. But I don't think anybody really realizes it, what he is or the impact he has on that organization until you're in it and you see it. I mean, it's really, really special. Is it important to you that you actually got into a game with the Jets and you threw a couple passes? Does it matter?

No. No. I could have taken my actual playing career more serious. I had a lot of fun for the pathway, and I learned a lot. And when I had an opportunity to become a coach, because the NFL didn't work out, I always wanted to make sure I never kind of had any regrets on working my tail off and doing everything I could do

to put myself in a position to be successful. But I wanted to kind of live that Tom Brady life without actually doing anything on the field and so I definitely didn't maximize myself as a player so you don't have that Jets jersey from 05 framed in your office I actually it was one completion and if it was if they'd reviewed it wouldn't have a completion that was that was that was the extent of it. And two quarterbacks had to get hurt for me to go in. It was at the end. Yeah, it wasn't like any sort of shining moment.

But I'll take them all in completion. Yeah, that's right. One for two. Hey, I know it's a 5-10-1 year, but I really think with everything going up to it in this thing, and now, look, the stakes have been raised. I watch your games quite a bit. I think you're kind of sneaky competitive, even though I think a lot of the

games in the NFL are closer, you know, when people are like, oh, we had all these one score games. Sometimes that can be a little overstated, but it does. It sounds weird to say, hey, five, 10 and one, this first year is a success, but I think everything going into it and Kyler looking like he's going to be a guy for a long time. Uh, I'm sure you guys feel good about it and are enthused and out in Indian and ready to get this thing going for the next year. So I can't thank you enough for the time, man. Of course. I appreciate you having me. Okay. I hope people enjoyed that. And I know that they didn't have a great record this year,

but I had known that story about how that first game when they were down 17-3, he's like, I'm screwed. And he extended it a little bit more, but I'd, I'd heard about that. And I appreciate him sharing that stuff. Cause I think a lot of people would think that that'd be weak to share a moment of self-doubt. I'm going to share one with you. Cause I'm not sure this NBA thing is going to be accustomed to the standard that I usually deliver for you. So let's just go ahead and start firing off some stuff. Last night, tails from the couch. go ahead and start firing off some stuff. Last night, tails from the couch. It might just be tails standing next to the couch. I'm watching the heat. I'm watching Duncan Robinson. I go,

this freaking guy, you know, he's doing it again. Let's run through some October numbers through what is now February. Minutes per game per month, October 20, November 27, December 30, January 31, February 34 minutes a game now for Duncan Robinson who had 15 points in the first half field goal attempts six and a half eight and a half nine ten eleven per this month three point attempts four and a half seven eight nine ten threes per game now in February and the three point percentages well 44 42 50 40 and 42 percent so as the volume has gone up he's basically stayed in that 40 range with that one big month there in December.

Points per game, 9, 11, 14, 12, and 16. And as I put together this nice little Duncan Robinson thing because the Heat deal with Iguodala and now Butler's missed two games because of a personal reason deal, I've looked at the Heat where I go, all right, what's going on with this team? Because they had lost five to six.

And as I put this whole thing together, Duncan Robinson scored zero points in the second half. Boom. Awesome. Thank you, Duncan. After I'd written down all these really great notes about your improvement from month to month, you went 0-4. And a Heat team that was up by, what, 19? I think 19 was their biggest lead against Cleveland.

And Kevin Porter went off. Darius Garland had a couple huge plays late. What they did with Sexton was a little odd. I think they ended up, I'm going to go ahead and do this on the fly here, but he was not part of the closing group. It was Thompson, Love, Porter, Garland, and Larry Nance Jr. And, you know, a little shout out to Larry Nance Jr. because he played well again. But yeah, there was moments there where Sexton was not out there as that closing group and Cleveland came back

and won this game in overtime. You know what Sexton did do though? And this is always like the little bit of, the little part of the loss in your game that gets hidden that nobody ever sees unless you're watching a game is Sexton allowed none to get a put back offensive rebound to basically send this thing to overtime. And it was bad.

Like you got to play just like hockey, play the man, not the puck when you're boxing out or when you're trying to get a defensive rebound and rebounding in general, but more defensively on that side of it, find the man, box them out. And then,

you know, somebody else like take care of your man, find somebody to box out. Don't just look at the freaking ball. And so many of these dudes just do it all the time. Now. I mean, I watch Lou Williams on back cuts and we all like Lou Williams, right? Like Lou Williams is the, the new age microwave, Vinnie Johnson, shout out for you young kids out there. Look them up. Uh, Isaiah Thomas the other day talking about Jordan on first take and say, you know, Jordan had Scotty. I didn't have anybody. I don't know, man. That seems a little dismissive of the microwave and Joe Dumars and a front line that was perfectly good at accepting their role.

But anyway, I'm not doing Isaiah Thomas ran hero, although I think Zeke is one of the most underrated players in NBA history. So back to Colin Sexton in that moment, Lou Williams as well, like Lou Williams is classic for that, that where he's like I can't be bothered to pay attention to somebody on the defensive end and it's not just bad defense it's losing somebody in a baseline cut behind you because you just stop paying attention like you can't not look at your man when you're set up where it's ball you man and you just know it's I get that you're a pro I get it's 82 games I get it's all these moments but when it's the very end of a one possession game and you don't find somebody to box out, that's how you can lose games. And then the internet will argue about how amazing you are if you drop 30 points, not

realizing like, you know who never gets back on defense? You know who never picks up their man defensively? You know who always gets beat on back cuts? You know who always trying to jumps into passing lanes and screws up? You know who can't throw in an entry pass? Like none of this stuff is ever tracked unless you watch. And that's the difference between fake numbers and great numbers that are fake on losing teams

and numbers that are good but also lead to winning. Like LeBron has somehow become underrated in all this stuff because that freaking guy, for whatever you want to think and whatever you want to knock him on, and there are certain things that I've been critical about, but usually it's just like a quote here or there understanding that, Hey, you know who everybody wins with every time he shows up now for like a decade and a half like wins games. It's LeBron. And by the way, his real plus minus on the year. And I was digging into some of these numbers. Yes. Real plus minus, uh, can be misleading. Plus minus can the year. And I was digging into some of these numbers. Yes, real plus minus can be

misleading. Plus minus can be weird. It can definitely be totally irrelevant in just one game. Sometimes it can be relevant, but here's what I know about plus minus is that if you are way at the top, you're probably really good. And if you're at the very, very bottom out of 490 players that qualify, it means you're probably not that good. Or it means you've played so few minutes. But again, it's kind of a qualifying thing because they track this whole thing. LeBron is so far ahead of everybody else right now in real plus minus. It's a joke.

He's like three points ahead of Giannis. Giannis is second. Kawhi Leonard is third. James Harden is four. It's like, man, those guys sound like they're all really good players. LeBron's good. Giannis is good. Kawhi's good. Harden's good. Maybe three top five and Harden, I'd put him kind of on the verge of five or six, maybe, depending on what you want to do with Steph here and Durant, you know, and those guys not playing. Do they count right now? Do they not

count? I know that would turn into, I'm going to ban myself, I think, from talking about the Rockets and Kyrie Irving. That's just a side note. I'm going to present that to Bill as well as a potential new rule. But Jason Tatum is fifth. So those real plus minus, LeBron, Giannis, Kawhi, Harden, and this Jason Tatum guy behind him is Jokic. And then it starts to get a little weird because it's Dennis Schroeder, Millsap, Terrence Davis.

And you're like, wait a minute. What? Is Terrence Davis the ninth best player in the league? Well, if Paul Millsap is eighth, maybe. But the top five, top six, those all feel like real names. And again, it's not definitive. When you start going through some more of this stuff, I was looking at like defensive plus minus. D'Angelo Russell at a 490 is 482.

Minnesota's still going to be bad, folks. I'm sorry. They're just going to get along better, I guess. And Carl Anthony Towns is 46. Bradley Beal, who went off again, 50-plus in his last two games. That game against Milwaukee was incredible, and I'm going to get to Milwaukee here in a second. Beal goes nuts.

And I thought it was really competitive, I need to carry my team type of stuff. I just think some guys' 30-point games are different than others. And speaking of, Trey Young, out of 490 players that qualify for defensive plus minus, Trey Young is not only 490 out of 490. He's almost a point worse defensively than Beal is, who's at 488. So if that sounds like a pro-Beal, anti-Trey thing, maybe. But again, you can resist some of these numbers, and I'm not going to scream at you about it,

but there's some really interesting stuff that's out there if you want to look it up. Okay, speaking of the Bucs who hold on to beat Washington in another overtime game. Last night was kind of sneaky entertaining. Giannis fouls out and Chris Middleton goes off. Go off King, I think is what the kids say. Or do they say, they usually say go off Queen more, right, Kyle? I got no comment because I really don't know. All right.

Appreciate your help on today's pod. Sorry, man. No, that's all right. Chris Middleton went for 40 last night, 15 to 28 overall, and eight free throws. The overall numbers here are always good for Middleton. And Middleton gets lumped in to the, okay, I know what you are, but what are you really, deal? Here's what he is right now.

I mean, this is at least worth bringing up. By the way, Giannis is the only Milwaukee Buck who plays over 30 minutes a game. Middleton's at 29.9. So let me double- check that for you. I don't want you hanging out with the bank teller going, I'll take hundreds. And did you know that Chris Middleton is under 30 minutes a game? Yeah. Giannis at 30.7 minutes. So not even 31 minutes for Giannis. So when you look at the minute dispersal, Middleton, 29.9. Bledsoe, 27.2. I thought Bledsoe was actually pretty good last night. Brooke Lopez, who I'm going to get to my Brooke Lopez stuff here. 27 minutes. Wesley Matthews,

25 minutes. DiFincenzo did not expect that at 23 minutes. George Hill, 21 minutes, despite incredible shooting has not started in a game. George Hill is 21 minutes, despite incredible shooting, has not started in a game. George Hill is still at 50% threes, only three attempts per. But you get my point here, is that Bud does an absolutely amazing job for a team that's already clinched a playoff spot. These guys don't play an insane amount of minutes. So now, if you look at Middleton's game log, insane amount of minutes. So now if you look at Middleton's game log, um, he has, he's at 25 this month. He's 25 and eight and five. He's putting up really good numbers. Uh, these numbers for his, his season now are really arguably his career best 21 per game, six boards, four assists, 44% from three. But the problem for him is the post-season that he had last year.

And that's it. 15 games, he shot 42 and 44%, but he averaged 17, six and four. The numbers are just down a little bit. And the free throw numbers where he's actually not like for a guy that puts it up, he takes some shots uh i know that sounded really stupid but 15 a game like you okay we know he's not like an a1 we know he's not like the premier score all this thing but he showed that last night against the wizards team whatever we know they're terrible defensively but that's if you're a bucks fan you're like how come you guys don't respect middleton more how come you don't maybe you're right maybe he isn't respected enough and there's probably some truth to that but i think it's kind of like come you guys don't respect Middleton more? How come you don't? Maybe you're right. Maybe he isn't respected enough. And there's probably some truth to that.

But I think it's kind of like, hey, you guys are up 2-0 on Toronto. And he didn't score as many points as we needed him to. And that may not seem cool. But that's just kind of the way the whole thing works. Yeah, when they were up game one, 11 points. Game two, 12 points. And then four straight losses to Toronto. Nine points.

30 in a blowout loss. Six points in game five, and then 14 points in game six. So that's why. That's why that happens to him. And he was never 20 points per game in any of the series when they crushed Detroit and then knocked out Boston in just five games. This leads to my Brooke Lopez deal. Now, Brooke Lopez's whole thing is pretty fascinating.

We know he was the 10th pick in the draft. We know that he is somebody who was supposed to maybe be the one on the Brooklyn Nets, but when we watched him, we went, okay, he gets to take a majority of the shots, but he sets up really far from the post which is outdated thinking now because now you're like well who cares who cares if he doesn't play in the post right he didn't rebound enough for somebody who's seven feet and granted again it was uh officially New Jersey in 2008 when he was drafted. Tenth overall pick.

He was 20-6. He actually had eight rebounds a game in his rookie year when he played 82 games. And then the numbers kind of went down. He only played five games his fourth season in, so we're not going to hold that against him. 20-10 is what you want. You were getting like 20 and six. And again, he was setting up really far away and it was pissing everybody off. And he did actually have decent free throw numbers. Here's the point. So he goes through Brooklyn. He's done at 28 in Brooklyn

and that last season he scored 21. He goes to the Lakers. His minutes are now 23, a game, 23 minutes a game scores, only 13 points, four rebounds. And LA, it was like this afterthought, like, oh, Brooke Lopez is out of here. Yeah, like, who cares? Not a big deal. He goes to Milwaukee for just over $3 million. So think about this. Lopez in 18 signs for the biannual exception at 30 years old for 3.4 million. This is a league where multiple teams fought over the right to give Alan Crabb $70 million, and Brooke freaking Lopez gets three, not even three and a half million, as an exception signing with the Lakers,

or excuse me, with Milwaukee after the Lakers. So that one year, the 29-year season for him, was so bad perception-wise around the league when it still wasn't terrible. Let me just double-check the advanced stuff here. Yeah, it wasn't great. For a big to be 16 and a half PR. That's not great. And other stuff, he wasn't playing enough minutes to give you like big time win shares or any of that. But he was outstanding last season for Milwaukee. And then that leads to a four years and 52 million deal. What this is, is this is an absolute lesson in you're still a lottery pick. We kind of run

the offense through you. We don't really like it. You're out of here pick. We kind of run the offense through you. We don't really like it. You're out of here. Lakers, we don't really know what you are. And the page has turned way too quick on what Lopez could be because now he is a modern day five. And yes, the shooting numbers are not great for this argument right now, but I don't think he's going to be living in the 20s from three. When you watch him, he's so active everywhere. Like it's just a pain in the ass to play against Brooke Lopez or even his brother. Like they're just going to make it harder on you. And they stretch everything out, which is perfect to go alongside Giannis. And he defensively, I'm not telling you he's like, look,

Hassan Whiteside is phony, a defensive player of the year candidate is there is, as anybody could even suggest. But Lopez, again, I'm not suggesting for that. He's going to make the right read on things. He's actually going to try and he's going to compete. This stuff is going to matter. And by the way, by all accounts, if you have Brook Lopez on your team, he's never going to be a problem. So it's all of these things, accepting the role, identifying exactly what your need is, being more of a modern big that we weren't ready for when he was drafted over 10 years ago. Brooke Lopez is a lesson in reclamation in the NBA. It really is.

Now, I'm not saying go out and trade for Emmanuel Moutier and go, what other top picks are there? The Ben McLemore story with Houston is nice, but every Houston Rocket, I give a 25% bump in chances to actually be productive because of what they do down there. percent bump in chances to actually be productive because of what they do down there. But it is, it is something like if you were working for a team, you'd go, okay, how, how far, like how big of a market misread was it for Brooke Lopez to actually in one year only be able to get three and a half million dollars just because he was coming off of not being what everybody wanted him to be, as opposed to, is there a different role for this guy where he can find out a way to fit in?

And that is my Brooke Lopez content. Make sure you subscribe, rate, and review to the Rosillo podcast on the ringer network. Uh, we have a rewatchables coming out to where I first, it wasn't even, it was a first watchables for me,

a vision quest that should be out. I think this week, right, Kyle, that was a stupid question. There's no way you know the answer to that. Nevermind. I, that should be out, I think, this week, right, Kyle? That was a stupid question. There's no way you know the answer to that. Never mind. I retract that. And make sure Thursday, it's going to be an AM drop for this one. Thursday, a 90-minute conversation with Craig Kilbourne. And we hit on everything throughout his life and career. Well, we don't get into

family reunions or anything like that, but we go we, uh, we go pretty deep on it. So I'm really excited about that. It goes all over the place. It's a lot of fun. So thanks for listening as always. And we will talk to you Thursday. Thank you.