The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Kobe, Shaq, and Phil: The Lakers Dynasty With Jeff Pearlman and Bill Simmons

Episode Date: September 23, 2020

Russillo shares his thoughts on Lakers-Nuggets Game 3, as well as the Lakers’ fourth-quarter performances throughout the playoffs (4:33). Then Ryen is joined by NYT-bestselling author Jeff Pearlman and Bill Simmons to discuss Jeff’s new book ‘Three-Ring Circus: Kobe, Shaq, Phil, and the Crazy Years of the Lakers Dynasty’ (20:39). Finally Ryen answers a listener-submitted Life Advice question (1:41:08). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, boys and girls. Welcome to your Brian Russillo podcast. The reason I'm saying that is I've listened to a lot of De La Soul lately. That's pretty old for some of you younger kids out there, but find it on SoundCloud. You're not going to be able to find it, unfortunately, on Spotify or any of the other places where you may listen to music, but find it on SoundCloud. You're not going to be able to find it, unfortunately, on Spotify or any of the other places where you may listen to music, but you should be listening on Spotify. And, you know, there we go. It'd be awesome, Kyle, if we give out some Spotify accounts.

Should I not say that? Just right off the top of the podcast? I'll find out. Yeah, let's find out. And then if not, then you'll never hear it, so it doesn't matter. There you go. There'll be no follow-up whatsoever. But yeah, De La Soul doesn't have their music really available anywhere. And I've got to tell you, the stuff that was coming out, and I was still in high school,

when De La Soul was dead came out, we were like, what the hell is this? And everybody was mad at him. It was very much like Tribe Called Quest, where it was like, wait, you guys are supposed to be only doing the first album. You're not supposed to do any of this other stuff with like jazz. Like, what the hell are you guys doing? And it's like, actually, we know what we're doing. And we're just that much better at this than you guys are.

And Daylaw arguably kind of started a lot for everyone. And so whenever I listened to him, because you don't always pop up the same way that you would normally do it. You'll have to listen to some remixes or stuff so yeah that was the way they did um prince paul introducing people into their second back then cd so yeah i'm rambling about a band that i don't know how many of you guys are uh one group whatever how much day less will have you ever listened to kyle um i'd say like a couple songs but i'm not enough to know that they weren't on streaming stuff so i guess guess that was back when I was doing YouTube searches anyway.

All right. There you go. Yeah. Check it out. Do yourself a favor, little homework assignment for you until next week. Okay. Here's the plan. A couple life advice. I'm taking a swing and investing one of my own at the very end. And the big deal here is Jeff Perelman, his book. Uh, he's an incredible author. He writes these unbelievable historical books on sports. It's just layup stuff where you go, I want to know more about the 80s, Showtime Lakers, Showtime Boom. He wrote that book, Dallas Cowboys, his USFL book, Football for a Buck. I absolutely loved.

Three Ring Circus, it just came out. It's about the 90s to early 2000s Lakers run. The book is incredible. He's going to be on. Bill is going to jump on later. You may have heard of him, Bill Simmons. So we have almost an hour with him and that's going to be unbelievable.

And then we're going to start with what we saw in game three of the Western Conference Finals. But before we do that, we're going to remind you, as always, our presenting sponsors, State Farm. Getting great car and home insurance from State Farm at a surprisingly great rate?

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like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. And also Pepsi. You're a Pepsi guy, right, Kyle? Yeah. Emphatically. This football season will be different. Pepsi is here to get you ready for game day no matter how you watch

this season I'm not watching all that differently than I do in other seasons I'm home and I've got TVs and that's pretty much the way it goes probably not that unfamiliar to those that are like what does he do

what and I'm telling you week two was so good and now we got SEC Probably not that unfamiliar to those like, what does he do? What? And I'm telling week two was so good. And now we got SEC football back this weekend. Grab yourself a six pack of Pepsi and, you know, watch the sun go down. All right. Pepsi is the refreshment you need to power through game day. Pepsi isn't made for those who play the game.

It's made for those who watch it. Pepsi made for football watching. Go to madeforfootballwatching.com to check out the latest football watching content from Pepsi. And you know what? While we're here, while we're having a good time and everybody's just sort of hanging out, let's go ahead and give out a Madden code for PS4. 8-T-G-X-5-X-N-L-CXNLCF4E. That's hashtag Madden21. We're going to keep rolling some of those out.

Okay, I want to talk about a bunch of different things that we saw in game three. Denver wins. It starts with Jokic. He was 11-4-2 in that first quarter, and you're going, all right, we're going to get the great Jokic game. And then, oddly enough, I thought Denver was so good with their role players. Jeremy Grant had the good Jeremy Grant game.

Morris, who I always love, had some big shots. Michael Porter Jr. wasn't a disaster in the way he can be. And I see that just sounds too negative. We all like watching this kid offensively and seeing what he's capable of. And yeah, there's a few things. But look, basically, everybody good now misses baseline cuts behind him because they come to help on the penetration. They'll help towards the big in the middle.

And if you're not paying attention, hell, sometimes the corner three guys so used to being in the corner three, they don't even baseline cut. So, I mean, some of this stuff is all connected in the sense that, well, I lose guys on the baseline all the time because the baseline guy rarely even moves out of the three-point corner. So why do I have to keep looking at it all the time? I don't know. It's not that hard to just glance real quickly and make sure.

You can step back a little bit. Man, you ball, all that kind of stuff. Very, very fundamental. But there's also habits. And sometimes we'll watch guys drive through the lane and we're like, how come you didn't get double teamed? And you're like, well, because sometimes guys don't close because they want to stay out and be able to run and contest and chase somebody off the three-point line. So way too much analysis on that for Michael Porter Jr.

But the role players for Denver, when they are good, and Grant was great, Morris was great, and Murray closed this thing out like a superstar. He has been the talk of so many different friends of just like, is this real? Like what is going on with him? And yeah, you know, look, it may not be every single game. And I think we also need to remind ourselves of that no matter who you are. And, you know, LeBron didn't have a great fourth quarter in game two. We're going to get to that. But that doesn't mean now all of a sudden we have to start giving them the Kawhi treatment or the Paul George treatment, because we can do that. Like if your favorite guy has a bad game and then somebody else has a bad game and you want to say, well, he had a bad game too, basically everybody's going to have bad games, but what do you do in those closing moments?

Murray absolutely took this game over when it looked like Denver was going to blow a monumental 20-point lead. The Jokic run early and then that second quarter was disastrous for the Lakers. run early. And then that second quarter was disastrous for the Lakers. Rondo was a mess all over the place, whether it was throwing the ball away or his defense. And then Markeith Morris, who has really good numbers from three, decided like he was hesitant, didn't really want to shoot. I mean, he'll have moments where you just go, he doesn't, he doesn't want any, well, I don't know. We're going to say he doesn't want to be out there, but he's like, he just doesn't know the acceptable shot. His brother is far more confident to shoot for 45 minutes of the game and not the last few than Markeith is.

Markeith will have moments where he just seems totally unsure. And granted, it's maybe been a tougher transition for him where with the Clippers, Marcus Morris is like, look, regular season, I'm just going to get my buckets. Kuzma, you know, the final line isn't terrible. His playoff line so far, 11 points, 3.5 boards, 0.9 assists. Let's just throw a quick assist number out there on Kuzma. He has 12 assists now in over 314 playoff minutes.

You want to talk passing or like assist ratio, where I always point out Jordan Clarkson. Kuzma makes Jordan Clarkson look like Connor Halladay. Okay. Kuzma does not pass the basketball and he's another big time complainer. I mean, this whole Kuzma thing, but you know what, as those Lakers fans, all of us, we know with Kuzma, we just give, give it another a hundred, 120 games. And I feel like finally he can fit in and find his rhythm with this group. And look, the Lakers got out rebounded 44-25.

Anthony Davis didn't have a rebound until like the very end of the game. And it does get back to what I always think is very true when it comes to the playoffs. The biggest adjustment in any basketball game, the biggest adjustment is your energy. How hard do you want to play? And it's probably what drives coaches crazy and why they're just crazy people in general, because they're just telling you, if you just try a little harder, we have a better chance to win this game. I mean, hell, it's not even just about basketball, right? I mean, baseball is a little hard to just like,

oh man, you got to try harder on grounders. But basketball and football, if you just want to try harder and it's really true in basketball because defense. What do you want to do? Do you want to try to box out? Because you know how you get a little later in the game and the body's already in front of you. And you're like, how am I really going to try to work and push this guy out of the way? I'm already tired from on a drive in the previous possession. And that's what happens to these guys, too.

I mean, it's just look, the way they're playing is way harder. So the energy adjustment is way harder. So, uh, the energy adjustment is very real. And Denver has shown now as this absurd six, no record and elimination games in the last two rounds that they have a heart, a fight in them that is very real, but it's also connected to who the Lakers have been throughout this. So look, we mentioned the second unit for, or I shouldn't say second unit, secondary players for Denver being great. The secondary players for the Lakers in that second quarter being a mess. Um, but there's another part of this where after LeBron's bad fourth quarter in game two, which was covered up by Anthony Davis's game winners,

just those are the rules. That's the way it works. And I wasn't in a rush to go, all right, wait a minute. Like, we need to kill LeBron now because I just think after a while, your resume is such that you're like, OK, you weren't great in the fourth quarter. But I started to hear LeBron is tiring. And I don't know that I'm right, but it's just something I'm going to share with you because I've watched every one of these Lakers playoff games. I actually think I've watched every playoff game

except for one Pacers heat game. And then I had a power outage during one of the Celtics games. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to point out here, some of the LeBron is tired stuff because there's these stats going around that are saying like, look, if you look at the fourth quarter, he's been getting more and more tired. Now he had that play in the second quarter, Torrey Craig got him. He's left side baseline spin dunk. And you're like, oh, okay. And then it's like, oh, LeBron's not tired. But that's not necessarily like the proof

of whether or not somebody's tired or isn't tired because they made an awesome athletic play. It's about your consistency throughout the game. And some of the numbers are showing you that he's just not as good. And he wasn't very good in game two in the game winner with Anthony Davis. But we already know that. Like, we're not going to bring that stuff up with wrong now um we're not gonna bring it up

when you win with the last second shot it's just not how it works but the fourth quarter numbers i'll just stop on the free throw stuff because if you're showing me hey lebron's fourth quarter free throw percentage goes down and maybe that's another reason why he's tired where have you been because the fourth quarter free throws are a major problem. And I'm telling you right now, LeBron, if it's tied against Denver 2-2, game five, if it's game seven against Denver, if it's a big spot in the NBA finals, if they get there and the Lakers are down two or whatever, and LeBron has to take two free throws, less than a minute left, he's missing one of those. He's going to miss one of those. I mean, it's just in his head. You can see it.

It's painfully obvious that he's not feel comfortable taking these free throws and it's been going on for a long time. So the free throw percentage going down in the fourth quarter is not a great indicator of him being tired. I just think that if you look at the way

multiple fourth quarters have played out, the Lakers have either been up big and then didn't care about the fourth quarter. Or if you look at specifically some of those Houston games, they went on this like quick run to go, oh yeah, we are better than these guys. Like they didn't take Portland seriously. They definitely didn't take Houston seriously, who you think they would have taken more seriously.

And I think maybe up at 2-0 against Denver, we saw a team come in going at, here we go again, which is really absurd for a team that hasn't really done anything together collectively to be that arrogant. But we saw the same thing from the Clippers there's there's something with both of those LA teams this year where it's just I don't know they they don't seem to respect any of their opponents so if we run through it quickly Lakers lose game one against Portland um game two they're up 30 going into the fourth quarter against Portland. So what do those fourth quarter mean? Game three, they won the third quarter 40-29.

They were even in the fourth because they're like, all right, we're better again. Game four, they were up 29 at half. They actually were minus five in the fourth. Game five, they were tied at the half, but they were plus eight in the third and then plus one in the fourth. So three of those games you could go, this game was already over.

So what do any of those fourth quarter numbers mean? Houston, they lose game one and they lose game one in the fourth quarter, which was weird. But then game two, and I remember seeing the start of the fourth quarter game two against Houston where the energy they played with and they won that quarter plus 10. I could see in those first few minutes, they're like, okay, this series is completely different. Now it's changed. LA is finally going, all right, do you guys just want to beat these guys? Because they're not that good. And that's what happened. Game three, they were tied in the fourth. So these fourth quarter numbers should mean something, but they were up nine and three and a half minutes. They were tied going in up

nine and three and a half minutes. And it was like that. It was very similar to game two, where I thought, all right, this is the deal again. Game four, they were up 16 in the fourth and they finished minus six. So that's another one where they were up big. Game four, they were up 16 in the fourth, and they finished minus six. So that's another one where they were up big. Game five, they were up a million early. They almost blew the lead as you were watching it going, wait, are the Lakers actually going to blow this? And they didn't.

Game one against Denver, they were up 24 in the fourth. And then game two, LeBron did have a bad fourth quarter. So that's a bunch of games, far more than really tight fourth quarters, where this thing was already over and the Lakers just coasted. So I don't know how regressing fourth quarter numbers can mean anything for any of the stars, the Lakers, when the games were already decided. So that's my, is LeBron tired? I don't know. I'm not convinced that I'm, I'm a hundred percent right on this, but I don't know that anyone's saying that LeBron clearly looks different.

And here are the fourth quarters of numbers to back it up because I just don't think the numbers mean as much. And just a reminder on numbers, 538 before the playoffs started had Houston as the fifth best chance to win the entire championship and a 17% chance to make it to the NBA finals. On the restart, they had the Sixers fourth. they had the Sixers fourth. They loved Houston. They loved the Sixers 538, and they had the Houston Rockets 15th behind the Pelicans in percentage to actually make it to the NBA finals.

So every now and then, the numbers can mess you up a little bit. The final thought on this, two quick things here. I tweeted out about Dwight Howard because everyone was applauding his energy and his effort and all this stuff. That shit is so fake, man.

And I don't like Dwight. That's not any breaking news here. He's been an incredible positive for this team all year long. I have to admit it. I didn't think he would bring much. He was great. He's accepted his role off the lobs with LeBron. I've mentioned that a million times,

like he fits really well on those LeBron drives. Cause he's still so athletic. But when you're Dwight and you're saying Batman's coming to Jokic, like that's the kind of stuff I can't handle. And he was waving his arms around

and running around. And really what he's doing is fouling and like kind of chasing people out of position. And the announcers even were like, he's manned. They're like,

he's at another level with this energy. And it's, I just find it incredibly annoying. And Anthony Davis not having any rebounds and the starters getting off to that bad start. That's way more. It has very little to do with Dwight.

Dwight's not the reason the Lakers lost. He just annoyed me and I wanted to tweet something about it. And Jamal Murray, it's not the three. It was the pass on that possession to get denver to 109 because look this game was 97 77 in the fourth and it was 101 98 with 433 remaining and pope had a wide open three and he missed it and by the way that whole energy thing i was talking about the energy the lakers played with some of that zone, which just felt like chasing everyone around at times

and not just a strict zone set up for the Lakers. They just were cranking it up. I think actually a little bit of a bad sign in that the Lakers go, okay, enough of this, and they still almost pulled this off. But three points felt like 10 points at that stage of the game because the Lakers had used all their energy in about four minutes left. It just wasn't going to happen anymore. Rondo and Kuzma missing shots the last few minutes

is not what you would want as a closing offense. But Murray made a pass where it looked like they weren't going to even come close to getting a good shot off. Pass, baseline, dunk. I don't know if it was dunk or not. I think it was Millsap made it 109. And that was my favorite play from Murray through this whole thing. So we'll see.

But always remember my number one rule in playoff basketball. You can say you think you should be up 2-1, but if this series were split at 1-1, LA plays differently in game three. They just do. All right? And it's the same way if uh you know miami and boston plenty of boston people just say you know what should be up to one okay but if boston gets if

it's one one miami's probably playing differently in game three or maybe this hayward thing is unlocked everything we'll find out in game four okay Okay, before Jeff Perlman, Bill Simmons, come on and talk some Lakers here, I want to remind you, by now you've probably heard about FanDuel Sportsbook, world-class sports betting app.

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you keep the cash. If you lose, you'll get your entire bet up to $1,000 back in site credit. That's incredible. We gave you the Pats winner last week. Did we give you? We did give out something on Monday, didn't we?

I thought we did. Yeah, I think it was like a weird Detroit. Was it the Detroit-Arizona thing? Yeah. So, yeah, we said it opened at Arizona minus three and a half at home. It's still at six. Yeah, it's just kind

of an ugly one. No one else will probably bet that. No one else will want to bet Detroit plus six. Revenge game from last year on the tie? Huh? That'd be good, though. Maybe I'll just lead next week's pod with that. Like, I got to tell you, Detroit came in.

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In West Virginia, visit www.1800gambler.net. In Indiana, call 1-800-9-WITH-IT. Or in Colorado, call 1-800-522-4700. Okay, I have to admit, I don't read a ton of sports books lately. And so it's only because it's literally all I do. And Jeff Perlman, who is a terrific author and wrote one of my favorite recent books about the USFL football for a buck, which I would say, go ahead and grab. But this week comes Three Ring Circus from Jeff. It's about the Lakers dynasty, but the prequel to it sort of were 96 into the early 2000s.

Shaq, Kobe, Phil Jackson, Jerry West. And the irony here, Jeff, is I was reading a different book about hooligans in soccer, which I hadn't read a sports book in a while. And I was finishing that up when you sent this to me. And I was like, yeah, I'll get to it. Then people started talking about it that you had sent it to and sent me excerpts. And so in just about a day, I got through about 200 pages. So it's that good. And I want to just get right to it because I think a lot of these interviews

always start with your process and all these kinds of things. People cannot get along and be successful. This Lakers team put that theory to the test. I mean, we knew that this group didn't get along, but as you research this and all the number of interviews that you can include throughout this, did it keep getting back to like, I mean, it's actually amazing they ever were successful, considering how much it seemed like everyone hated each other. It's actually funny.

I think a lot about the last season, that 2003-2004 season, when everyone says, what a disappointment. First last season, that 2003-2004 season, when everyone says, what a disappointment. First of all, what an upset. Detroit beat them in five games. It's a huge upset. And it's like, what a disappointment. They only won three titles. I kind of agree with you. I think the fact that they actually won three straight titles with Shaq, Kobe, just so combustible is remarkable. And that last season in particular, I remember I met with Jeannie Buss for the book and I was like, why do you think that last season was such a disappointment? And she said, why is it disappointing to make the NBA finals? Like, why is that a disappointment? And I actually thought with that group, and if you look at everything that happened that year,

they bring in Malone and Peyton, they're both way past their primes. Phil Jackson doesn't know if he's coming back and is pissed off about it. Shaq wants an extension and is really pissed off about it. Kobe is flying back and forth to Eagle, Colorado on sexual assault case, and he's basically one foot out the door to go to the Clippers. And he couldn't stand Shaq and didn't want to play with him anymore

and didn't understand why he was so lazy and wouldn't learn how to hit a free throw. The fact that they made it to the NBA Finals and went five games against an excellent Detroit team, to me, almost is as improbable as anything they did during that time. And it wasn't that the players hated each other. It wasn't like Rick Fox and Robert Ori hated each other. It's that you had in the middle of this all this giant planet that was Shaq and Kobe, and you could not escape that gravitational pull.

No matter who you were, you were brought back to it so if you were Robert Ory or you were Rick Fox everything wound up being about Shaq and Kobe and that's a lot to deal with and throughout most of it you know that a lot of the team sided with Shaq Shaq comes off as a lovable figure who we knew wasn't into the conditioning part of it didn't take the working out part of it seriously. It really feels like Kobe, we knew he was an isolated guy. We knew he was an individual. Did anyone actually like him?

Did anyone consider him a friend? I think Derek Fisher might say he was a friend if he was being nice, if he was in kind of a good mood. But I mean, Kobe gets married. Not one teammate is invited to his wedding. Most of them didn't know he was getting married. A lot of them didn't know he was dating. When Kobe has, he's going through the trial. He reports a training camp in 03 in Hawaii. A reporter says, are you going to confide in your teammates? He says, why would I?

There's one night when Shaq takes the entire team out to dinner at a fancy seafood restaurant. Kobe declines to come and then shows up a half hour later and sits by himself at a table with a book. There are a million examples. Like J.R. Reid was part of that Glenn Rice trade and he arrives from Charlotte to LA. And Jerry West is like, I really like the way you talk to young players. Could you pull Kobe aside and talk to him? J.R. Reid is working at it. They'd be on a flight. He'd be like, Kobe, come on back and play cards with us. Kobe, come sit with us and talk. Kobe. Finally, J.R. Reid went back to Jerry West and said, I can't do this. I just can't do it. I remember John Sally told a really interesting story where he got Kobe to go out with him that one night in South beach. And it was a win. Like it was a win for John Sally and I'm getting Kobe to come out with me to the clubs in South beach. It's about nine 30 and they're in a club and Sally thinks this is great. And Kobe goes, John, I gotta, I gotta go. I really want to work out early tomorrow morning. And he just leaves at nine 30 and John Sally's

like, that's pretty much it. You know, he's just not, he's not into it. So it was hard to build a bond with someone who didn't want to build a bond. As you tell everyone that's a part of these Lakers teams, you tell all these individual stories. And I'm going to get to some of those because it's the backstory. You start to understand somebody immediately, like after three pages. And that's what's so great about it.

And we know that Kobe's upbringing is different. You know, his father's an ex-NBA journeyman. He ends up kind of like as a surprise going to play in Italy. And Kobe kind of grows up with this Italian existence, but then comes back to the States. What like junior high, just about to go to high school and he's in the suburbs. So now he's kind of not really identifying in a white suburban town, but he also doesn't feel like he's from the inner city because then he's got a bit of an accent. He's got all these different things. The part that's so impressive throughout all of it is his singular focus, which I guess he felt like he couldn't have friends or he couldn't have anyone because it was just a waste of time because he is as driven. And we all understand the mom mentality and the marketing and all of it. And we all understand the mom mentality and the marketing and all of it. But how consistent was the impression that he's almost like this child prodigy, this great piano player, this insane eight-year-old who understands math differently, that he was basically, I don't know if basketball genius is the right way to put it, but he just was different. He's different in every possible way. different, different in every possible way. And that part, I think all of us, even if you didn't like him, have to respect that he just wasn't going to be anything, but what he was as a player.

I would say he was two things at the same time. He was basketball genius and socially delayed or awkward. And there's a moment when I forgot who it was. It's in the book. One of his teammates are going back to Philly. And one of his teammates with the Lakers said, Kobe, you're going to look up any of your high school buddies. And Kobe's response is, why would I? Why would I? Why would I do that? He was this guy who was kind of made to be a basketball player. And some point early on, when he's in Italy and he's a little kid and he's at his dad's games and he's dribbling around and he's dominating the other kids in Italy. He just decides he's watching VHS tapes of magic and bird and Jordan. He just comes up with this conclusion that I'm going to be Jordan.

I'm going to be like Jordan. And he just, it is all about that. I mean, there's lower Marion. There's one, one former teammate told me the story about like, he would work out in the summer at a track on a 95 degree day, have the heat in the car on full blast with the doors and windows closed when he would be done with his workout. And he would go to like a weight room, he would get in the car and drive to the car in the 90 degree,

boiling car just to keep the intensity on. That is not normal. That is just not normal for a 16-year-old kid to do. There was something about him that was, I don't care what I have to go through. I don't care what it's going to take. I don't care what relationships it costs me. I am going to be the best basketball player in the world, period. And he actually, you can make the argument, accomplished it. How difficult was that for him as a rookie and also for veterans to go, what are we supposed to do with this guy? Yeah, very tough. I mean, you know, he's drafted and he plays on the summer league team

in 96 in Long Beach at the Pyramid. And the other players don't like, there was nothing worse, nothing worse than being a guard, trying to make the Lakers and trying to impress people on that summer league team with Kobe Bryant, because he wasn't passing the ball. And it would drive people freaking crazy. And if you fast forward a year, just real quick in 97, he returned for summer league. And one of the guys on the summer league team was Jimmy King, the former Michigan Fab Fiverr.

For some reason, Kobe just got in his head, I'm going to destroy Jimmy King. And he would be talking shit to him nonstop, just like destroying him in one-on-ones. He just, he would take people and make them his targets and go after them. And when he, back to 96, he reports to training camp in Hawaii. He was actually injured because he injured himself playing pickup in Venice Beach. So when he, back to 96, he reports to training camp in Hawaii. He was actually injured because he injured himself playing pickup in Venice Beach. So wasn't ready to go.

And everyone is in a circle introducing themselves, all the players. And what gets to Kobe Bryant, he basically says, my name is Kobe Bryant. I'm from Lower Marion and nobody here is going to punk me. I was 18 years old with, you know, all these veterans and Nick Van Exel

and Eddie Jones and Shaq. Nobody's going to punk me. It went over like spoiled milk times a thousand. It just did. You know, it's like, who the hell are you? Like you're supposed to be. It's the same time Jermaine O'Neal was a rookie out of high school in Portland. Jermaine O'Neal is like getting people's laundry and bringing them orange juice.

And Kobe's basically saying, ain't nobody here going to punk me. It's just, yeah, nobody here gonna punk me it's just yeah wasn't how you do it i want to go back before that that summer 96 then where they draft kobe they pull off the shack signing which i don't know the way you tell it i'm like this doesn't seem to be as tenuous it may have been a little more predetermined than people understood back in 1996. But it was a Lakers team that was still trying to figure out its identity. Jerry West is running the team.

He's very upfront about, like, we had some players. They weren't great players. But I think it also kind of reminds us of the Magic Johnson storyline and how upset we all were when he found out about contracting HIV. But then his missing the spotlight, and that if you just look back a couple years ago, you're like, okay, that's right. It's magic who loves the spotlight.

How much do the Lakers kind of regret almost trying to recapture some glory by bringing him back and realizing that it's actually not going to work? They definitely knew it was a mistake pretty quickly. I mean, he comes back. It's funny how it's one of those events that you remember, like at the time it was enormous and nobody talks about it ever. It's like it never happened. It was such a big deal because, you know, he's bigger,

but then he was like playing power forward. He's posting guys up and it's working. And I was just so happy to have, look, I didn't grow up a Lakers fan. I was just happy to have Magic back playing basketball. Yeah, but it was a total disaster. And number one, he just, he was an 80s guy in the wrong era. It was like you took him and you transported him. And all of a sudden, he's not playing with Worthy and Kareem,

and they're not all listening to him. And it's Nick Van Asselt and Eddie Jones. And my favorite guy, Cedric Ceballos, who nicknamed himself Chice. And Chice was the one for franchise. And Chice was the one who's losing minutes because of magic and that's when he went awol to go jet skiing you know like just vanished and before long first magic is like i just want to help the team and then he's like i need to be starting and then he's like i should be considered for the olympic team and then he's like if this doesn't work out i'm gonna go

play in new york or miami and he's like these guys i'm playing with they don't appreciate magic and i got five rings and they got and like by the, it was just like having your annoying uncle who's drunk at your party and won't leave. And you're just like, I think it's time for you to go, Uncle Marty, you got to get out of here. And he just, by the end, it was just exhausted and exhausting. And he took a lot away. I mean, Nick Van Exel was very patient about it, but took a lot of shots from Van Exel, took shots from Eddie Jones. It's just not good. Van Exel had a remarkable run as far as the guy that went to second round. Yeah. And he had some edge. Share with us the backstory of Nick, because within two paragraphs, I felt completely different about Nick Van Exel in those moments

where I was like, what's this guy's deal? And you sum it up perfectly. And you almost have, it's almost impossible to not have sympathy for him. So first of all, I love Nick Van Exel in those moments where I was like, what's this guy's deal? And you, you sum it up perfectly and you almost have, it's almost impossible to not have sympathy for him. So first of all, I love Nick Van Exel. And the first time I ever saw Nick Van Exel play real good, I was a, uh, when I was a sophomore at the university of Delaware and made our first NCAA tournament and we played Cincinnati in the first round and I was covering the game at Dayton arena and we all thought we were going to upset Cincinnati and we were winning six to two. And then Cincinnati puts in Nick Van Exel. And we lost by 39. He was just ridiculous how good he was.

He was so good and so quick. And the thing is, he was a kid from Wisconsin. Went to private school basically because he could play basketball. He was abandoned by his dad. Then his dad tries to reemerge. At one point, his dad who had just abandoned him and his mom, he was home. Nick Van Exel was home all the time by himself in front just abandoned him and his mom he was home nick vanex was home all the time by himself in front of a tv because his mom worked multiple jobs

and one day his dad calls and says i want to fly i basically i've started a new life i'm out of prison i've started a new life i'm in georgia i want to fly you down there's a team by the way his father ends up in prison for i don't know the specific reasons but at certain times when nick would be brought to basketball games his father would be like wait in the car and then his father would rob all the cars and take their stereos out and then nick would go in and play the game but he would look out he was breaking into cars and he got arrested and uh this is nick van exel's dad and nick van exel um he gets one day his dad's out of prison he writes him he says i'm in georgia i want you to come visit me son and he uh he leaves him a plane ticket at the airport. He tells him, go to the airport. So he goes to Milwaukee and he goes to the airport. And the dad did not leave a ticket for him.

Ben turns up and like comes out. Hey, I'd love to see you play and blah, blah, blah. And it's just like, it's so sad. It's so sad. And it's, it's one of those, I know we've both seen this in sports. You see a guy on the surface and you think, oh, what a dick or whatnot. Why is that guy? What's bothering that guy? Why is he, you're making millions of dollars. You should be grateful, you know? And then you see what he went through and what that guy went through. He is a success story times a million. So Jerry realizes, okay, this team, I've got some nice pieces. It's not going anywhere. How does he pull off the Shaq and Kobe thing with all the research that you did?

I mean, I've heard this story and versions of it millions of times, but I just think the thoroughness in which you describe it is probably the most accurate that I've ever come across. Well, so Shaq's agent is Leonard Amato. And from the time he reps Shaq coming out of LSU, and across. Well, so Shaq's agent is Leonard Amato. And from the time he, he reps Shaq coming out of LSU and he desperately wants to get Shaq to LA. It's a whole thing. When you need to be in LA, you're a star.

You're not just a basketball star. He's saying this before he's even with the Magic. Yes. And he's saying it throughout his time in Orlando. You need to be in LA. You should be in LA. You should be in LA. And remember Shaq did,

I mean, it's funny in hindsight, he did Kazam. And that was a, it was a majorly bad motion picture, but it was a major motion picture starring Shaquille O'Neal that was out nationwide. He was doing these hip hop albums. He was doing stuff with Foo Schnickens and it was like pretty popular. He was this thing. And Leonard Romano kept pushing LA, LA, LA. So he's because of a quirk in the NBA free agency system, he actually is a free agent coming out of this fourth season in Orlando.

And the Magic are owned by the DeVos family. And they suck. I mean, they're just the worst owners in the NBA at the time. And they're cheap. And they feel like they're players. They kind of view them as much as indentured servants as they do basketball players. They really do. And there's a lot of talk in the locker room about these guys.

They're kind of racist. And Amway was what they did. And just not the best. And Shaq's agent is pushing for LA and Shaq is kind of trying to give Orlando a chance, but not really. And then what happens is, and it was huge. And Shaq told me it was huge. There's a poll in the Orlando Sentinel that said Shaq was asking for 120 million. He wanted to be the highest paid player in the NBA. Jawan Howard had just got paid a ton of money. And there's a poll and it says, is Shaquille O'Neal worth, I think it said, is he

worth $100 million or $120 million? Overwhelming response, no. Yeah, like 90%. But the thing is, it's such a ridiculously worded poll. Like, in and of itself, nobody's worth that money. Nobody's worth that money. But if you say Jawan Howard was just paid X amount by Washington,

is Shaquille O'Neal worth that much money? Or you say, the DeVos family makes X amount of money off of owning the Magic. Is Shaquille O'Neal worth X amount? It's a totally different question. He's with the 96 Olympic team. They're training in Orlando.

The poll comes out. The players all see the poll. They're like, you're going to really, you're going to come back here to this. And didn't Barkley start freaking out too? Say that again? Charles Barkley started going off on him.

Yeah. I'm like, you're really, this is really. And also like, not to be mean, there isn't that much to do in Orlando, Florida. You know, it's not exactly a Mecca. And at the same time, Jerry West, West is just like plotting and plotting and plotting and here's the guy here's the next building block

of his foundation and he makes this deal I think it has to be one of the top 10 deals in the history of the NBA just as far as savvy which is

he trades Anthony Peeler and George Lynch two very serviceable NBA players to Vancouver for two second round picks and he just does it so he can free up money and have more money very serviceable NBA players to Vancouver for two second round picks. And he just does it so he can free up money and have more money to give Shaq and the magic or offering.

Number one, Stu Jackson caught grief from all across the Western conference. Why are you doing that? Why are you letting the, you're giving the Lakers to Keoneo. Stu Jackson's like my team won 15 games last year. I'm not, this is not a conversation for me.

I'm with Stu on that one. That's that's, it's just everybody's else selfishness. And who would have done the same thing to pick up two assets for nothing, but you basically get into Lakers seven and eight guys who are going to be your fourth and fifth guy. Like,

what are you supposed to do? And by the way, there's still a chance Shaq goes there for, it was only like 3 million plus in extra cap space that they could pay him. I believe. Right. Exactly.

So, so basically he makes this deal and all of a sudden the magic at the end have this holy shit moment where they're like, oh my God, he's about to sign with LA. Yeah, he's actually going to leave. They're like the last people to know.

I'm telling you, the DeVos family thought these guys needed to be loyal. They thought they had the loyalty thing going. Like, wow, you drafted Shaq number one. He's going to be loyal to you. So at the last minute, they send someone basically to go talk to Shaq's agent. They rushed to the scene. And it's like, yeah, no, it's too late. And Shaq joins the Lakers. And I'm telling you, that Jerry West Vancouver trade is one of the best trades in the history of the NBA and involves two guys, George Lentz and Anthony Peeler. You probably

wouldn't recognize that they were crawl walking down the street. Okay. But do you think if the magic had offered a hundred million out of the gate that Shaq would have just stayed? Because it doesn't seem like his agent ever wanted that to happen either. I don't. I think he would have been tempted by the money, but I don't think he would have. I think he was into the idea of being this thing. And he spent his off season, a lot of off seasons in LA. He loved LA. And you know what's funny? Jeannie Buss knew they were in good shape when she was selling her house in Manhattan Beach. There was no connection to this at all. Her real estate agent says, Shaquille O'Neal was looking at your house today. And that's the first she knew that Shaq might be coming to LA. It was her real estate agent just randomly saying, Shaquille O'Neal was looking at your house today. And that's the first she knew that Shaq might become an LA. It was her real estate agent just randomly saying, Shaquille O'Neal was looking at your house today. And she's

like, that is a good sign. Give me the backstory to Trump, Jason Williams, Nets Jason Williams, and Kobe being in the elevator all at the same time. That's so awesome. You're the first guy to ask about this. So it's the 98 All-Star Game in Madison Square Garden. And Jason Williams is in an elevator in the Grand Hyatt, which Trump used to own. He was in the process of selling. He was near the end of selling. It's Trump who's just involved because he's always around these things. Trump, Jason Williams, Charles Oakley, these things. Trump, Jason Williams, Charles Oakley, and a very young Kobe Bryant. And Jason Williams, who obviously went on to some levels of infamy, said something to Kobe. I don't remember the exact words. It was like, what's up, Kobe? Yeah, what's up? And Kobe just gave him like, okay, hey. And Williams was just infuriated because he was one of these old school

guys, like Oakley actually, who believes in the code, you know, like the code, supposed to treat someone with respect. And he lunges after freaking Kobe Bryant and tries punching Kobe Bryant in the elevator. And I'm not a Donald Trump fan. I guess in one of the few things that I would say Donald Trump deserves credit for, he actually broke up. Donald Trump, of all things, broke up a fight or got in the middle of a fight between Kobe Bryant and Jason Williams that's I know you're not a Trump fan but I was I thought it might have only had to do with the USFL chapter that you had on him which I encourage I know I know I know the USFL chapter on Trump is is hysterical reading but yeah I couldn't I actually couldn't believe that one. We've got more with Jeff Pearlman. Bill Simmons is going to join us as well. But first, introducing Bacardi Spiced Rum. You love the classic. You know you guys are just walking around and be like, you know what I do? I do love the classic Bacardi. And now you're going to love the new Bacardi Spiced Rum. Sip along with your friends and enjoy a delicious Bacardi and cola for game day this weekend. Bacardi Spiced Rum, your choice of cola. Maybe throw in a lime.

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Bill Simmons jumps in to join us. Bill was texting me excerpts of this book early on he's like have you started this book yet what's wrong with you and uh i know you had a lot for jeff so i don't know let's just go in any direction go ahead well i know rossillo devours his stuff he loves nothing more than a historical anything not just sports but this was so a couple things did you talk about magic 1996 yet yeah yeah we covered that so that i had never known that whole story i'd always i don't you know i was living in boston that we didn't have the internet back then it was i was like oh man that's too bad i don't why isn't he coming

back it was so much fun to see him and i had no idea it was such a train wreck the uh the kobe stuff you know i i mean obviously that jumps out the most from the book, but that's just what it was like for eight years. And I think the piece that I didn't realize was how he would just repeatedly bully these either training camp dudes, 15th men, second round picks, like people who really were not threats to him at all. And like, Jeff, why did you think, why was he doing that? What was he gaining out of this? Like, did he think this was how a leader was supposed to act or, or was this just some crazy, bizarre alpha thing? I think it was a little of both. I think he, I think part of it is he always felt threatened. Like he always felt threatened. You know how some people, they need a shadow behind them. Like they need someone to make them feel that way. And I just, it's weird because why would

Paul Shirley or Eric Chenoweth or Jimmy King threaten you? You're even JR Ryder. Like, well, they're not threats to you at all. But some of the things, I mean, to me, the one that stood out was there was one guy in training camp and he's like, get me a, yo, Rook. And he wasn't even a Rook. He was like a third year training camp invite. Get me a Gatorade. It was Chenoweth. Oh, yeah.

It was Chenoweth. Get me a Gatorade. Get me a Gatorade. And all right. He goes to get him a Gatorade. Yo, Rook. You know, I don't drink. I don't drink a 12 ounce.

I want a 24 ounce. Shuffles back. Yo, Rook. You know, I don't drink a 12-ounce. I want a 24-ounce. Shuffles back. Yo, Rook, you know I don't like blue. I like red. And finally, Shaq sitting back there just goes, Yo, Kobe, chill the fuck out. And he's just like, he just had that need to do that to people, to bully people and show he was a boss.

And it really went off badly and reflected badly on him. It just didn't come off right at all. And I think it didn't come off the way he thought it was coming off, which is he's a tough guy and he knows how to deal with guys. I just don't think he got it. It was almost like an alien had landed into the NBA who was trying to learn human behavior

with some of the stuff he did. And it was a weird one for me when I was writing my book because I'm writing from 07 through 09. You document all the stuff that, all the issues that people had playing with him basically for the first eight, nine years of his career until Shaq leaves, where it never really goes well for any stretch more than maybe like two, two and a half months, three months. Then Shaq leaves. They have a couple more kind of nightmare years with him where he's

now the guy, but they're not succeeding. And then it starts flipping when he gets to the Olympics in 08. And then over the next five years, everything gets reinvented. And I also think he obviously got older, he matured, he learned stuff. But I think those first eight years have just been forgotten, which is why I was so into that part of the book. I have a question for both of you guys that I would love. Cause I feel like you, you would be able to give me an answer that I'm not sure. He was almost drafted by the nets number eight overall. And Cal basically wimped out.

If Kobe Bryant is drafted by those nets. So it's like the Ed O'Bannon, Khalid Reeves nets. He probably starts as a rookie. He probably shoots 32%, but averages 23 a game and you know, blah, blah. Is his career ruined and does he become at best like a Carmelo or does he lift the nets and do the nets become this juggernaut behind Kobe Bryant? You know, you read some of this stuff in your book, especially like the parts where Shaq didn't play. And you know,

parts where Shaq didn't play. And, you know, he, he, Ryan, he had a game. I forgot about this. We took 47 shots in a game, a regular season game, like during like the peak of the three-peat. 47 shots. Like that's like impossible. Um, I think it could have really gone haywire, but the thing that, you know, you had in there that I thought is just the best point about him was he was this maniacal, nobody had ever seen anybody do the level of the gym stuff that he did, where he had three different workouts during the day, where he had morning, middle of the day, and then night, where he was just going to will himself to be a top 15 guy. So maybe it doesn't happen in the Nets. Maybe he switches teams, but I just think he was so driven to do it. It would have happened at some point,

but I think those first couple of years could have been awful. He would have eaten Cal up. Like that would not have been good. That would have not been good. Well, what happened between pick eight and pick 13? I've never understood that part where you have, you have nine,

10, 11, and 12. All of them. Like he didn't have to fall to the Hornets. The Nets were the one that seemed like they were 9, 10, 11, and 12. All of them, like, he didn't have to fall to the Hornets. The Nets were the one that seemed like they were the closest to taking him, but I know the Celtics liked him too.

Well, Vitale, though. Vitale, you gotta I mean, how do you take Kobe over? True. It's a center league back then. Yeah. But yeah, I think the agent, this is back in the era where the agents could really scare the shit out of teams. This is probably the most powerful agents

where I would say the 96 to 99 range. Well, my favorite is David Falk is representing Kerry Kittles. And Falk calls up Cal and says, if he really wants to play for you guys, if you don't draft him, don't expect me to bring clients to you. And John Calatari is like 37 years old or whatever he is.

And he's like, oh my God, what the hell? This is a nightmare. And John Nash, who's a GM, but Cal was given a final personnel say in his contract. So John Nash is like, they're bluffing. Like you do not have to- Yeah, he's like, it's bullshit. This is all bullshit. Yeah, I mean, if you have cap space in three years, one of his clients is going to take it.

Yeah. Which I agree with Nash on. Sorry. Oh, it's amazing. It's amazing. But cause, cause Cal go,

I mean, it's just that Cal, Cal's told versions of this. I've heard this version of it a million times. I mean, ultimately you're the guy in charge. He was making more than anybody else. Yes.

He was only 37, but he, he just got totally railroaded by these agents. He just fell for it all. It's unbelievable. Do you think there was ever a point after they won the first title where they would have seriously considered Kobe? Who is the biggest

we-can't-trade-Kobe guy? Because Wes leaves. Wes is gone. And Kobe doesn't really belong to anybody there. I know Dr. Buss liked him. But was there ever a point where they were just like, maybe we should just shop this dude and get somebody else.

Bus was wed to him. I mean, he was wed to Kobe Bryant. He really viewed him. This is an exaggeration. He viewed him in the same way he viewed a young magic Johnson, but this guy's my cornerstone. I mean,

that last year, Oh three Oh four. I hate to say it. Kobe was terrible to that organization. Like they're being, they're doing everything they can do for him. He's flying in and out of, he's flying back and forth to Eagle Colorado because he got a knee surgery. He did not tell them had, I mean, bluntly had sex with a hotel worker on, you know,

staying at a hotel. They didn't know he was staying at like the Lakers knew none of this. And then he's mad at them for not flying him on the right plane back and forth to Eagle, Colorado. The amount of patience that the Lakers showed for him that season is preposterous, just preposterous. And that they stuck with him, I think, is one of the most loyal team-to-player relationships I've ever written about. I want to do one because we've done a lot of Kobe here and I know you have some Phil stuff. We haven't touched on any of the Phil stuff yet, Bill. Yeah, let's do that.

But knowing that you've done these interviews over the course of years, the book was finished earlier this year, and then you have the passing of Kobe. How have you navigated that part of it, Jeff, knowing that some people are probably, there's probably people listening to this podcast that still feel like, hey, this guy died this year. But I mean, this is the way it works. I mean, we're just talking about history now at this point. How have you navigated some of those concerns?

What's funny, Bill, I once heard you say something. You probably don't remember saying this. You're like, we often assume that everyone is paying attention to what we do on the internet and most people never hear it. And like, I feel like I say over and over again, like, look, this is just a piece of his life. This is not who he was at 41. But there are going to be tons of people who never hear me say that and say, oh my God,

this guy just wrote this book and he wrote it on the quick after Kobe died. And he's just trying to take advantage of Kobe and screw this guy. And I don't really know what to do about that. I just keep saying over and over again, look, I finished this before he died. I added a forward to the book because I couldn't make that many changes to it. It was done. I added an author's note at the beginning explaining that this is just a piece of the legacy. And it doesn't take away from someone's final sort of whatever that he went through this, this, and this. It doesn't take away from who he was at 41. I just keep saying that over and over again and hope that people see I'm sincere. I don't really know what else to do. and hope that people see I'm sincere.

I don't really know what else to do. Well, I would say it makes the turn that he took as a person the last 12 years, it illuminates it even more when you see how far he came from who he was from 96 to 04. Because I think when he really started to try to reshape how people saw him and perceived him was probably after they won the two titles.

It was somewhere in 2011. He started to really understand social media. His, this, this personality started to come out. I think he, he was kind of painfully aware of like, I'm going to retire and how are people going to talk about me? And then also got mature. And I think, I think if you look at him like a child actor, it makes more sense. You know, like you think about all these child celebrities that come in and they just kind of lose it. And most of them aren't able to put their life back together in whatever way. And he was able to do it in a way that the last 10 years of his life became the legacy of his whole life. I don't think that should, when you read, especially the book, because it's a sequel to the first book you wrote, you're documenting 30 years of Lakers history here. Like, you know, I think you owed it to tell the right story. You know, it's an unfortunate situation, but that's just how it played out. I think Shaq said something to me that I just thought was really telling. And I remember I interviewed him in Atlanta. He was great.

And I said to him near the end, I was like, one thing I really find interesting is you always gave yourself nicknames, but there was always a wing to it. It was never serious. Shaq Diesel and Big Aristotle, but it was always kind of ha ha ha.

And Kobe, kind of like Cedric Ceballos a decade earlier, gave himself this persona the black mamba yeah he gave it to himself he trademarked it he believed it he lived it and i said it just always struck me as kind of strange that he took that so seriously and shaq said to me in his very deep voice he goes now you know what i was dealing with bro bro. And I just think like, that's kind of telling. Like he's actually right. Like everything for Kobe was deadly serious. This is who I am.

You either win or you're a loser. If you're not spending your off season shooting, you're not doing it the right way. There was one moment when he runs into Rick Fox and Robert Ori. And it's not the night before a game. It's two nights before a game. And Robert Ori is drinking a beer. And Kobe goes up to him and said, how can you be drinking before a game? Robert Ori is nights before a game. And Robert Ori is drinking a beer. And Kobe goes up to him and said, how can you be drinking before a game?

Robert Ori is like, all right, Junior, I'm 30 years old and I'm drinking a beer two nights before a game. He just didn't get it. You know, he just didn't fully get it. Yeah. So the Phil Jackson stuff, you know, and this is a recurring theme with Phil Jackson stuff where there's multiple moments in the book

where you're like, God, that guy was a dick. He just, and it seems like he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way over the years. But the Jerry West stuff I had just forgotten about. Like Jerry West pulls off Kobe and Shaq, doesn't really want to bring Phil Jackson in. Phil Jackson had done that ESPN the magazine piece that Russell and I actually talked about a few months ago

where he's like, gee, I wonder what it would be like if the Lakers had a coach with a system. And meanwhile, Del Harris has the job. He tried to take Van Gundy's job in 99 with the Knicks. He took Doug Collins' job. Is Phil Jackson a dick? He has moments.

I mean, he definitely, it's hard to find NBA coaches, peers, who liked him, really liked him, or felt engaged. Actually, you know, Pete Babcock, the old Hawks general manager, told me a story one time where he was involved in this charity that involved Native Americans. And he said when Phil was a coach of the Albany Patroons at the CBA, Phil would call him and pick his brain and ask for advice. So now they're both in the NBA, and Pete Babcock knows that Phil Jackson is really involved in these charities. So he's talking to Phil Jackson about it. And he told me just midway through, Phil Jackson just

walks away, just kind of walks away. He wasn't even listening to him. And I think there are a lot of guys out there, the Larry Browns, the Pete Babcocks, a lot of coaches who just felt, Del Harris, who felt that there was always something. Number one, he thought he was better than them. They got that impression. I don't know if that's true. And also they're like,

they felt he was a little manipulative. I mean, Del Harris rightly thought that Phil Jackson was kind of pining for the job and did not. I spent time with Del Harris. He's a very nice human being. He's one of the nicest human beings you'll ever meet. He definitely felt that there was something

Phil Jackson was doing when he wasn't coach of the Lakers that wasn't 100% coaching. Well, and then how about dating Jeannie Buss? That's fucking weird. That's really, Jerry West is not a fan of that one. Not a fan of that one. But it's funny.

It seems like a line cross. It definitely does. Jeannie said to me early on, so they started dating. I guess Jeannie thought he was attractive or something, and it was her birthday, and he brought her cake, and she said, why don't you send a piece of cake down to Phil's office? He comes up, and hey, why don't we go out? And Jeannie said, she was very adamant, we have to make this public from the beginning. I'm not going to have this be a scandal.

And then they started dating, and Jerry West told me, he was like, I was never comfortable with this. This is not something I felt comfortable with. Yeah, I'm not going to have this be a scandal. And then they started dating and Jerry West told me, he was like, I was never comfortable with this. Like, this is not something I felt comfortable with. Yeah. Why would he be? I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. What was your favorite? Yeah, I know. I'm leaving that one alone. No, it's just like,

it's just like bonkers. He's, he's already in a, like kind of a territory war with West. Right. Yeah. And then he's like, Hey,

I'm going to date the owner's daughter now. Can you top that one? Is that okay with everyone? Yeah. All right. Now I'm really, really winning this battle between us for territory. Well, because look, think about part two

and how weird it was when he was coming back. And then it was like, he was fighting with his ex-girlfriend's brother about his contract. And then you had heard like, I want part ownership and all these different things. And it was like he was fighting with his ex-girlfriend's brother about his contract and then you would heard like i want part ownership and all these different things and it's like what what do you like how can you not think that certain family values would kick in at some point being like or what are we actually negotiating here um but yeah back to the world with west because there does like bill was texting me and we were talking about phil and i

go i can't think of anybody that says his over the years, but you know who I love was Phil Jackson. He's a terrific coach. We know the resume. He was the perfect guy for these big personalities. The track record is you, you can't debate against it, but yet,

you know, you're here with Jerry West, who's considered one of the greatest evaluators in the history of this game. He's already put these pieces in place, Jeff. And yet Phil finds a way to have a problem with him too and I don't I don't know if it's again these these people that are so great at what they do these artists in a way that just are hard to they can't handle like the day-to-day being normal with with just other people but

that part of it I guess I didn't remember as much because it was so much Kobe and Shaq but there was still this West Phil Jackson thing going on as well. So I think part of the thing with Phil Jackson is, um, and I was told about this. He's kind of awkward in a way. He had a little bit of Kobe in him. Like he was not super smooth. And I actually, I got to interview, I spent eight hours with him in Montana and it was arranged by Jeannie bus, did me a favor and emailed him on my behalf. And I flew out to Montana. I met him in a coffee shop, eight great hours with him. But when I first met him, first thing I said to him was, hey, I really want to thank you for taking the time to do this.

And he says to me, I'm not doing it for you. I'm doing it for Jeannie. And I was like, whoa, you know, like it was like, whoa. And it was awkward, you know, and then he kind of warmed up and it was great. And we spent this time together, but he did have a little bit of Kobe in him in that he wasn't naturally smooth. He wasn't a great conversationalist. Howard Beck, the great writer, you know, he was covering him for the LA times said, you know, he would be, you'd be talking to him and you'd be like, he said, one of the writers one day was like, Merry Christmas.

Hey, Phil, Merry Christmas. Okay. What questions do you have for me? You know, like he just, it wasn't smooth at all. I think that rubbed people and confused people. So Steve Kerr loves him and vouches for him and talks about just what an amazing coach he was, especially that last Bulls year.

But then dating back, the last dance did a good job of covering it, how they handled the Pippen thing when Pippen wouldn't go back in the game and how he navigated that team and just how close that team was when it was splintering at the same time and all the things he learned from them. So, you know, obviously had some unbelievable qualities. And what he did for that Lakers team, that first year,

which you, you documented pretty heavily where you have Kobe who, who is just determined to take the team, but you have Shaq who's having his career year. And then you have this Dell Harris hangover where they, you know, it was like basically you're taking over for the substitute teacher. And he did navigate that really well that first year.

And then the second year, Kobe is like, all right, it's my time now. And you know, that's, I think that's one of the best five teams ever, but the,

you have to throw away the first four months. Yeah. The first four months, it's a fucking shit show. And then by the time they figure it out in the playoffs, that team is absolutely unstoppable. But, um,

I spent time with him in 2011. I did a piece about him. And it was a piece that happened because he reached out because he had gotten my basketball book for somebody on the team. And then a guy at the Lakers was like, hey, Phil liked your book. You should maybe have lunch with him. And I was like, all right, I'll have lunch with him, but I want to write about it. And I didn't...

I think I tape recorded it. But we just kind of sat at some place and I don't know, there's a lot there. You could see it. And I think what you're talking about where he's going to react to different people in different ways, probably some of that is, can

this person do something for me? Maybe it's conditional, but he's definitely one of the smartest people I've ever interviewed. I thought it was interesting how again, eat out, show up, coffee shop. All right, I figure I'll get an hour with him in a coffee shop. He's like, I'm going to take you for

a drive around, I think, the Great Fork Lake or the Fork Lake in Montana. It's a three-hour drive. We'll go take a drive. I would take a drive. We stopped for lunch. You want to come back to my house? Okay. You know, we go back to his house. We're sitting in rocking chairs. There's like a cat crawling all over us. He's like, I'm going to take a nap. I was like, all right. He's like, you wanted me for dinner later. Okay. And I would say in those eight hours or whatever it was,

it was probably 20% basketball and a lot more, what have you been reading lately? What is your life? He's good at asking questions, I would say. He does listen to answers. He's not one of those guys who just wants to talk about himself. He does ask you about things

and he is interested in your life. And you can definitely tell he's reading you and kind of reading what's going on. I did find him very interesting. And I did find him likable. I found him really likable. So I didn't have to play for him. So maybe it's different. And Ryan, I do think part of why

he came back to coach the Lakers again, I think he was fascinated by Kobe. You even have in that book where he classified Kobe as a juvenile narcissist. And he's like, he fits all the definitions. I think he was looking at Kobe

like he was like this petri dish of weirdness. And he had all these good basketball qualities and all these terrible ones. And he just kind of had never interacted with anybody like this. And it was weirdly appealing to him. Well, I'll just, I have two things that I, and one that I've always brought up and we talked about it with Kobe's passing, cause it's something I've never forgotten. And I think it's important for anybody to kind of remember like in the workplace. I think this actually applies, even though it seems stupid to compare anything that NBA players, but

eventually Phil had to talk to Kobe and say, Hey, you have to understand that like, whatever your 10 is, is like, it's, it's not even the real world to the rest of these guys. Like their 10 is your seven. And they don't even understand that there's an eight they don't even understand it they don't and he wrote that i think in the first book and at least the the first book with the the lakers and it was funny because we had him on this this half-assed radio show that i was on which was like the first radio show i was ever doing and we're talking like over 15 years ago i don't remember if it was 03 or 04 or 05 when we interviewed him. It probably would have been like late 04, maybe 05. And I had always picked up on the Kobe, Michael Jordan thing very early on. I was surprised that more people didn't understand it. I was like, you understand he's doing the same cadence, the same emphasis

on words, the same tone, his range, his notes that he uses. Everything is Jordan. It's like Billy Donovan after he got done with rick patino which i always thought was one of the weirdest things because billy donovan ran a patino at providence while he was in college and you would have think you've already would have developed like certain speech patterns and traits and i always was like billy donovan's doing a rick patino yeah and kobe is doing a michael jordan and why why do you not like i always found it very odd because i was like is he searching for this identity? And I asked Phil and I go, do you think that Kobe may have, have been in search of some identity that he was never quite comfortable with? And in that process, never really found

out who he was. And like, Phil was like, wow, wow. So what you're saying is it was, it was, you know, here's Phil Jackson. i'm a total nobody and he loved this question and he kind of like was just out loud even though it's a radio hit you're supposed to be dialed up and kind of answer he just was sitting there like thinking about this thought the entire time and just to your point bill and jeff you can pick it up from there is i do think despite the frustration because that one book starts with kobe saying i'm not doing this shit anymore i'm not fucking with ko or i'm not like shack i'm not taking his shit i'm going to go back to adam that there had to have been something because he you know people make it

out to be this huge hassle and he couldn't wait to come back and do it and they were incredibly successful to get together again as well and that that's a i think it's a great point about that relationship because you go how bad could it be when you wanted to come back and do it again? And you guys did it so well. I just, I actually think a lot of that was, um, I think coach who wasn't Phil Jackson to realize how good Phil Jackson was

for him. You know, I think that, you know, playing for Rudy T who obviously was a good coach, but at that point was not healthy. It just kind of reminded him, like,

I don't like, I don't want to be, I don't want to be mediocre, you know? And like, I was playing for the best coach and I kind of drove him I don't want to be mediocre I was playing for the best coach and I kind of drove him out of here he drove him out, he drove Shaq out and he drove Phil out it was either they were keeping Kobe or they were keeping those two

there was no one or the other or two or three here so I actually do think he came to realize that and one point you make that I read the Jordan point is fascinating and I remember back when Kobe was a young player in the NBA, my roommate was the think he came to realize that. And one point you make that I read, the Jordan point is fascinating. And I remember back when Kobe was a young player in the NBA, my roommate was the editor of slam magazine. His name was Russ Bankson. So I was working for SI Russ there. And it was like Iverson with the cornrows and the tats and Steph Marbury. And I just think Kobe really wanted that. Like he wasn't that, but he wanted that.

And it was this weird fit of him trying to do hip hop, but he wasn't very good at it. And him trying to be hard. There's a fight. That's being nice. Well, yeah, I know.

Hey, that album is cut and it's available on eBay. And he gets in a fight with Chris Childs when they're playing the Knicks. And Childs just like, he laughs at him. He was like, are you joking? Like,

this is ridiculous and Samaki Walker when they get in the fight in 2002 on the bus and Samaki Walker basically calls his BS he's just like okay let's get off the bus Phil stop the bus we're gonna get off the bus and then Kobe punched Samaki Walker in the face over 100 bucks yes and then Samaki like it was it's just such an interesting part of it because no one even jumped up to like i mean they jumped up because they were swearing at each other but you're right then it's like all right phil stop the bus we're gonna fight and then kobe sobbing 24 hours later or less than that on a voicemail yeah and it i just think when i talked to samaki

about it and then i talked to jelani mccoy who was there too about it and they both kind of were the same mind which is this is ko Kobe trying to present something to you. Look, I'm tough. This is me. I'm standing up to you. But then when you, like Mike Penberthy, Masters College Finest told me about standing up to Kobe and watching Kobe just kind of wilt.

Like if you stood up to him and you're like, I don't think so. Kobe was like, oh, okay. All right, we're good. You know, like it was just kind of an act of love. Like Iverson was authentic. Marbury was authentic. Kobe wasn't really authentic. He was just kind of an act of love. Iverson was authentic. Marbury was authentic. Kobe wasn't really authentic. He was just a really great player.

Jerry Stackhouse, too. It's such a weird era. I used to call it the too much, too fast, too soon era because these guys were just making a shitload of money right away. They were 19, 20, 21, 22. They're franchise saviors for teams that are

25-win teams. It was the first time the league, you know, the internet's coming in. There's the Slam Magazine, all that stuff is there now. And it was like we were anointing people stars before they were stars. Everyone had a shoe

by then. Everybody got a shoe. It just wasn't if you go back and you look at the league before that era, it didn't get a shoe. Everybody got a shoe. It just wasn't, if you go back and you look at the league before that era, it didn't work that way. You know, nobody, nobody came in like, you know, in 1990 where it's like, oh man, this guy's an immediate star. We should treat him this way. Shaq was the first one where he came in and he was a star before he had done Jack shit, you know, and he had all these things in place and felt famous. And it was like, what has he done? He was at LSU for a couple of years. He was in blue chips,

but wasn't like he had actually earned what he was, but that, that was when it started. And I think a lot of guys had trouble dealing with that. I think it hurt Vince Carter too. You know, I think that he was pretty immature those first few years in Toronto. It's so funny now. He's this respected vet. But it was definitely too much too soon for him. I think C-Web's another one.

Glenn Robinson's another one. But there was a lot of guys that, you know, it was a lot too, it was a lot very fast. And it was also, I just want to say

it's interesting because Kobe, and it used to drive his teammates crazy. Like if we're playing Toronto, we know he's going to go at Vince Carter hard. You know, if we're playing Philly, especially at Philly, near where he grew up, he's going to want to, you know, light up the scoreboard and sort of do more than Iverson. Like he is going to view this as an individual challenge against guys who he considers threats to what he's trying to be. And if you look at a lot of the box scores, Vince Carter is crazy.

He was a shoot and shoot and teammates would be standing around. Yeah. The game, they'd be like, what the fuck was that? Like, what are you doing? Cause he needed that.

He thought they were threats to what he was trying to be. Right. Well, I remember the 98 all-star game. You know, I was, I was still living in Boston at that point, but we all kind of really, we wanted somebody to be the next MJ.

And it was like, Kobe seemed like the best candidate and he was doing well enough, but it was pre-league pass. It was hard. You didn't see him unless the Lakers were on TV, but he had momentum. Then he got voted in and it was like a big deal. It was like, okay, cool. Maybe this will be the next guy. And seeing him in that all-star game with MJ, it's so funny to read about like, oh, it went way worse. You know, Karl Malone's mad at him and guys are like, who the fuck is this guy? But as a fan, I was like, this is awesome. MJ and maybe the next MJ and they're together.

fan, I was like, this is awesome. MJ and maybe the next MJ in there together. You need to watch, if you want to be really entertained, watch the rookie game from 96 when Kobe plays and listen to UB Brown just complain nonstop about him not passing the ball ever. You have all these guys, these future

stars, 96 is loaded class and Kobe is just looking at nobody the whole game. I know I have one more thing, Bill, and I don't know, you can ask as much as you want. I mean, I don't want to feel like you have to be short on it, but I just don't know time-wise where we're at. But was there any part of this in the research, Jeff,

where somebody was like, I don't want to talk about any of that stuff anymore? Like, I just always think it's interesting. You got basically everyone you could think of, but was there someone that was like, I just don't want to talk about any of that stuff anymore like i just always think it's interesting you got basically everyone you could think of but was there someone that was like i just don't want to talk about any of this stuff anymore you know i got um i got blown off by ron harper where and ron harper ron harper blew me up and harsh grant and harsh grant told me he would talk to me it was at an nba cares event during the all-star weekend in la he's like yeah just give me a call blah blah blah never heard from him again. Um, so there were people, I didn't get

everyone, you know, some people are like, yeah, no, I don't think so. Um, and I just think, I do think this is before Kobe died, obviously. I do think there's some awkwardness because if we're being completely honest, I think a fair number of these guys didn't like Kobe even after his odd time. I mean, if we're just being honest, I don't think they had warm and glowing and lovey feelings toward Kobe the way they did to Shaq. Yeah. I think still, you know, because he wasn't that guy. Even when he was winning an Academy Award, he just wasn't that guy.

And that doesn't mean he's a bad person, but he wasn't that guy. We'll finish up again. Three Ring Circus, Jeff Perlman, Bill Simmons. But first, you might know Square as that little white reader, but Square has a lot more tools that can help your business, especially now that businesses are having to figure out when and how to make things work in this new normal. But businesses are stepping up to the challenge. Hot Sam's in Detroit has been in the men's clothing business for 100 years.

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with pickup, delivery, and shipping. Square can also help you accept appointments online for any virtual or bookable services you may have. Everything works together and it's all in one place. You just need a Square account to get started. See all the ways Square can help your business right now by visiting square.com slash go slash Ryan. That's R-Y-E-N. Again, square.com slash go slash Ryan. The thing you had in the acknowledgments was the Lakers PR staff made it much more

difficult to do this book than maybe they did the last book. What changed? Did the last book Showtime, which was a great read, did that piss people off? What happened? I think what happened is John Black is no longer

the PR guy for the Lakers. And he was, when I dealt with John Black, he was like, hey, you know, come on. The NBA has changed. You must see. I mean, the NBA has changed.

It's a lot harder to get people. It's a lot. They make you jump through a lot more hoops. And back in the day, John Black, who was a PR guy for the Lakers when I did Showtime,

was like, who do you need? How much time do you need? What can I do? How can I help you? Couldn't have been better. And it was just, I don't blame anyone. I really don't blame anyone. It's just a different league now.

And it's different. It's just different. What's funny because it was a different league even before it was, you know, it's had these stages where you think of like the breaks of the game era where Halberstam's just hanging out with everybody and like, hey, Mo Lucas, want to go get some breakfast? It's like, cool. It's like, hey, mind if I hang out in this coaching staff meeting?

Like, great, come on in. And then by the time he does the second book about the Bulls, Jordan doesn't even do the interview. And even that was like a better time to be a sports writer. But if you think about it, like when I was at SI and when you were doing a ton at ESPN.com, you would about it, like when I was at SI and when you were doing a ton at ESPN.com, you know, like

you would show up, you'd call a team. I mainly covered baseball. You call the Dodgers. Hey, I'm coming to town. I want to do a Gary Sheffield profile. How much time do you need? Do you want to have dinner

with him, blah, blah. Like that actually doesn't exist anymore. It doesn't exist for ESPN. But part of the reason is because the teams don't have any control over the stars now.

Now you have to call the guy who works for the player or the gatekeeper, I always call them. But even what's the benefit for them? That's the other thing. What is the benefit of whoever the Dodgers star is now getting a Sports Illustrated profile or even, you know, like it's just, it's all changed. So it's not the same anywhere at all.

Yeah. Or it's like the benefit would be if the Starz production company could potentially option your story that you wrote about so-and-so or whatever. They would have to almost get something back. We'll give you 15 minutes, but you have to mention Nabisco in the first five paragraphs.

Right. Yeah, it's a weird time. Because in some ways, we have more access to these guys than ever, but they're just going directly without the media. And I remember Gladwell and I did an exchange about this, I think when I was at Grantland. So this was, we're talking like seven, eight years ago about athletes officially starting to bypass the media because you could feel it.

This is a thing that's happened over the course of the decade where they're just kind of realizing, oh, I have the internet. I could just go directly. And I remember when we were doing The Finish Line with Steve Nash and he'd want that to be a documentary. And we went back and forth and I was really pushing him to be like,

we should do this as a docu-series in the moment. We should capture your career as it's happening. It'd be so much more interesting this last year, your career, but people are watching the parts as the career is still going. And now you think about that idea. It's like, yeah, of course they should have done it that happened. It would be so much more interesting this last year, your career, but people are watching the parts as the career is still going. And now you think about that idea. It's like, yeah, of course they should have done it that way. But it's something that's really changed over the last nine years, the direct access, the in the moment stuff, and the athlete

controls all of it at all times. And I don't, I don't think we're ever going to go back to where it used to be. Well, even when I was covering baseball in the late 90s, early 2000s, you would walk into a clubhouse and they're all reading a newspaper. And if you're a Red Sox player, and Bob Ryan, just as an example, had a column about you, you were going to know it and you were going to be pissed off or happy. Now they don't care. It just doesn't matter.

If someone writes negatively about him in the Boston Globe, there's an 80% chance they don't even know about it. They care about one thing. First take. Exactly. They all watch first take and if Stephen A lights somebody up, they all know and they get mad about it. I think that's the only thing left.

I agree. I agree 100%. You can even see whether it's direct response to first take or subliminal because you're an athlete that shows on when you're up starting your day and it's on. And, um, I was always amazed how many times I would hear, and I wouldn't hear from players, but I would hear from front office people like upset about something that was said on first

take. And I would just go, Hey, like, I don't know that these guys are grinding away on tape here. Okay. I don't know know like you have to freak out because this guy didn't know your substitution patterns all right so like you can be mad because you're criticized of course you're gonna be mad because you're the one being criticized on this tv show but i don't know i don't know how much stock you should put into it because i think that it's it's a bit more for show than it is somebody saying like you know that this team doesn't do all these things right because of this this and this you know yeah they, you know, that this team doesn't do all these things right because of this, this, and this, you know?

Yeah, they have, you know, and at some point they're having fun with some of this stuff too. Yeah, it's theatrical, which is the point of the success of the show, which everybody that's a part of it gets it. And yet, look, let's face it. If you were a GM, you wouldn't be like,

oh, these guys are just chopping it up and having fun and being dramatic. You'd be pissed off because it's just the way we all are. Well, I was saying to Jeff, because I emailed him about the book and I was like, I really enjoyed just seeing the Chris Webber stuff because he had quoted some sentence that I wrote about C-Web, how he would hide from these moments and O2. And I was like, those were the days when we could criticize athletes objectively. And maybe we went too far with some of this stuff. But now we even feel, and Rossello and I, we came on after that Clippers when they completely fell apart in the last three games of those series.

And it's like really trying to be fair and careful. And in a lot of ways, that's the way you should be. But in some ways, I think people are afraid to be more critical because there's some line that's just shifted and I can't put my finger on it. But the Clippers, we all should have just been like, that was just an abomination. That was honestly one of the worst ways the team has gone out ever.

And they took shit but i think it would have been way worse 15 years ago for them and i i don't really know what's changed in that respect maybe we've just we're taking sports a little too seriously than we used to maybe there's less there's not a wing to it like there used to be maybe the money i don't it does seem like we there's a little less sense of humor about it all than they're used well that's that's also america though there's a little less sense of humor about it all than they're used to. Well, that's also America though. There's a little less sense of humor with everything. Everybody's just kind of delicate now.

But, you know, I think there was that. If like C-Web doesn't show up in the O2 Kings finals, we would really talk about it. And now it's like, if Stephen A is going to come out on first take and do that whole segment about where was Paul George and all that. And there seems like a sense of theater to it i don't know something you know what though here i'm going to explain to you what has changed though is because back then and this is before i got started but you guys were the only voices you were writing for espn jeff's

doing his stuff sports illustrated you know like you're the only voices so there's no other existing voice and now those voices and this is what happens to human nature. Like when everybody starts shifting one way about music and I'm like, ah, maybe they're not that great. Hey, this is the greatest movie ever. I'm not sure. Inception seems a little weird. You know what I mean? Like all these different things that'll happen. So when you know that the Clippers are going to get lit up like crazy on social media, and now you're sharing this space with a bunch of anonymous voices, some of its media, so many fans like that didn't exist before. So back then you guys were the only voices and you didn't feel like you had to temper anything down. You had to carry that rage because there wasn't going to be any other rage. And now I think human nature is that, oh man, these guys are going to get so crushed that maybe it's a more reserved criticism because there's another layer. criticism because there's another layer.

I used to love Mike and the Mad Dog when Russo would flip out over somebody that fell short and he would do the five-minute completely insane rant. It was just like, man, this is great. This is so authentic. I think in general, because that distance

between athletes and everybody has just been shortened. People are just a lot more careful. And I think they're much more aware that this is just, it's a game. Don't get too carried away. 20 years ago, especially like Jeff's doing baseball in the late 90s, talk about life or death. People are losing their fucking minds about everything.

And it's just not that, I actually think it's hurt baseball a little bit. You know? Yeah, I don't... I actually think it's hurt baseball a little bit. You know? Yeah, I don't disagree. I think that's true. I just think people have lost interest in baseball together. Well, that's not helping either. Yeah.

The other day I saw... I was a baseball writer for years and I saw on Twitter, Padres make the pennant. And it was like a day later and I live in Southern California. I mean, Padres make the playoffs. And I was like,

hey, what? You know, like that... I didn't even know. No idea. It's weird. And meanwhile, footballres make the playoffs. And I was like, hey, what? I didn't even know. No idea. It's weird. And meanwhile, football is more popular than ever. Remember like seven, eight years ago, we were like, ah, this is it for football. It's still here. They're screwed now.

I didn't ever. The sport's over. The sport is more, it's better and more popular than it's ever been. For anybody that ever thought it was going away i would just be like i think you've never been to the south like you've never been to the south like anybody like anyone that was like football is done and heading in the wrong direction it was either new york city or i i guess los angeles i don't know it was just it never made

any sense to me never i have a dumb call i think I have a bad column in my archives from like six years ago. Being like, this is it. Because you just think like, how are they going to play this sport with the concussion thing now? But they really have kind of figured it out. You know, and you have the occasional like Nikhil Harry just got demolished on Sunday night.

That was awful. The guy got thrown out. But for the most part, we don't have the same kind of hits like that anymore. Don't you think we've also learned people just don't care? At the end of the day, we're polluting. We'll be okay. Concussions. We'll be okay.

People just... We build up a rage. We get upset. And then most people just kind of move on. And they watch the game on Sunday. And the concussion thing, it's terrible. I feel really bad about it. What time is the jack game on? You know, I just don't think people are that. Well, the people that were, you're right,

because the people that were complaining about it were the people that talk about it and then may not even cover football in particular. And it was talk show hosts. It was people like me. And after a while, I was like, look, I'm just going to accept it. When I had colleagues that said, I feel complicit now in the danger of this.

And it's like, okay, well then I guess, I mean, you could do a different job because if you're doing talk radio, you're doing NFL. Like as much as I'm an NBA guy, if you're not doing NFL every Monday, then you're doing the job wrong and your ratings are going to suffer and your advertising is going to suffer. And I think the people that kept complaining about it over and over again, were more like on this media side that didn't really get it and certainly weren't speaking for a fan base that hasn't gone anywhere. I agree. I was covering baseball during the Starrett era. And there was a period where I was like, don't you guys get it? They're all cheating. You know, like, look at Bonds. This is a joke. Clemens, this is a joke. People are like, meh,

I don't really care that much. And I'm sitting here yelling and nobody else cares. And after a while, you're like, why am I yelling if nobody cares? And you just kind of move on. Those are my text threads now with Priscilla about the NBA. I'm kidding. Jokes. Hey, wait. Before we go, I have to ask about, he went to JR Ryder's house.

I did. He hunted down JR Ryder. Found him. And JR Ryder wasn't happy not happy was that was that the most scared you've been as a as a intrepid reporter um i've knocked on a bunch of scary doors in my life um one time i tracked down former minnesota twin lyman bostock's killer and had to drive oh my god yeah. Yeah. That was a little scary. Um, in Gary, Indiana,

but this was, you know, cause in researching it, I, first of all, I love Jr. Right. I actually do.

He's super smart. He's actually a nice guy, but he did have his moments where he would say, like he said to Tim Brown in the LA times, he's like, are you Tim Brown? It's like, yeah.

He's like, I know where your family lives and walks away. And he was like, whoa. So when I did knock on his door, I did text my wife at first where the address I was. And I was like, just in case this is where I am. And, uh, you know, he basically, a kid comes to the door. I asked for J.R. Ryder, a woman who comes to the door. I asked for J.R. Ryder. Finally, I hear some yelling behind the door. J.R. Ryder comes to the door and he's like, who are you? And I'm like, Hey, my name's Jeff behind the door. JR Ryder comes to the door. He's like, who are you? I'm like, hey, my name is Jeff Perlman. I'm working on a book about that. Bro. No, bro. No, no, bro. You don't just walk. You just come to my door. He's coming. Bro.

Then he opens the door. He comes out. He's like, bro, that's not, that's just not cool. It's not cool. And I have, um, I have in my hand, I have a copy of my USFL book just to show that I'm a writer, you know? And I'm like, he's like, bro, bro. And he's like, what is that book? And I was like, well, I wrote a book. It's about the old USFL. It's like, is that Trump? Is that the Trump league? And I'm like, uh, like, yeah. He's like, so what are you working on working on and I go I'm doing a book about the Lakers you know you were there obviously you were you know he's like all right man I'll talk to you and uh he gave me his phone number he couldn't talk at the moment we talked for two

hours on the phone couldn't have been better and actually a moment that I loved is at the end of the season he was there was the season they lost the Sixers in the finals. And he was inactive for the postseason. JR Ryder was a good player, obviously a good player. And he's devastated. It's like the lowest he's ever been as an NBA player. And it's all over. And he walks into this broom closet to be by himself because he just wants to be in a room and cry.

And instead of being a broom closet, it's all the coaches smoking cigars and drinking. And JR Ryder just wants to be alone. And it's this awkward moment where Phil Jackson, who inactivated him for the postseason, is like, hey, J.R., congratulations. And J.R. Ryder's like, okay. And he said he's never worn the ring,

doesn't care about the ring. Oh, man. Let's bring him in right now, J.R. Ryder. I'll go get him. I'll go to his house and get him. You know, who was the person who had the quote in there in the book where they were like, this guy had severe ADD and smoked

pot every day. He was unplayable. Was that Phil Jackson? Somebody said that. Who was it? I don't remember. You know the story about when they're in Toronto and the dogs start barking at them as they're going through customs. These are the Lakers. Then the dog starts going crazy, the they're going through customs. Right. These are the Lakers and the dog starts going crazy,

the drug dog. And Jared Ryder gets pulled into customs and Shaq's bodyguard goes to get him. And Jared Ryder had no marijuana on him, but his tracksuit smelled so much like marijuana that the dog started going crazy. Guys are like, it's the only time I've ever seen that happen

to a guy who actually didn't have marijuana on him. I mean, think about how much pot you have to smoke to set off a drug dog and you have no pot on you. It's incredible. The other one I love about, I just love J.R. Ryder. You can write a book, J.R. Ryder.

He was late to a practice and they were on the road or he's late to a game. He gets the hotel clerk at the front desk of the hotel clerk to write a note for him to give to Phil Jackson, explaining that the hotel forgot to give him a wake up call. So he shows up with a note and gives it to Phil Jackson from like Jim, the front desk receptionist at the Hyatt saying, dear coach Jackson, Jaro is late. It's our fault. We forgot to give him a wake-up call. Oh my God. That move right there. JR. I mean,

the thing about JR, and there was a bunch of guys like this in the 70s, 80s, and 90s who just had a shitload of problems, but if you caught them on the right night, you'd be like, wow, that guy should make $20 million a year. Spencer Hayward. Oh, man. So Jeff knows this from his last book.

This is one of my passions. How the fuck did Spencer Hayward get in the Hall of Fame? It's unbelievable. I went nuts when it happened because I actually read the books and I knew what happened with his career. And just this massive disappointment everywhere he went. Every single team was bummed out by the time he left and had

a huge coke problem the last couple years and got kicked out of a team during the finals in 1980 that ended up winning and threatened to kill his coach. Isn't Ralph Hampson in the Hall of Fame? Yeah, but at least... Ralph had the four-year college career. No, I don't think Ralph's in the Hall of Fame.

He is in the Hall. Is he? Well, it was college and then, you know, his first five NBA years were really good. Like, they made the finals. Did he try to kill anyone? He didn't try to kill anyone. No.

Spencer Hayward. It's like, Jesus, if he's going to make it, what are we doing? Yeah. I'm with you. Nice guy, though. I overflowed his toilet. That was my claim to fame. All I did was pee, I swear to God. I was in his house. I don't know if you've ever had this

happen. All I did was pee, I swear to God. I flushed the toilet. It starts coming up. It starts going under the door into his daughter's water. I'm like, there's no plunger. And I go out to Spencer Hayward and I'm like, hey, do you have a plunger? And the guy was as cool as you could be. He's like, yeah, it's right over there. I get the plunger. I'm sitting there's no plunger. And I go out to Spencer Hayward and I'm like, hey, do you have a plunger? And the guy was as cool as you could be. He's like, yeah, it's right over there. I get the plunger. I'm like sitting there furiously plunging Spencer Hayward's toilet. I'm like, you got paper towels?

He's like, yeah, right here. Didn't bat an eye. And I'm like terrified that I'm ruining Spencer Hayward's house. And I just, the one thing I said to him was, I swear to God, all I did was just pee. Oh my God. Well, you know, we didn't think, there was one nerdy basketball thing we didn't talk about. Well, two things actually. One was

how bad the Eddie Jones-Glenn Rice trade was. Terrible. Did you know it was good? Well, as a basketball fan, I remember, because I thought Glenn Rice was awesome in Charlotte. If you go back and look at his stats, there was a three-year stretch when he was lights out.

And so when they got him, I was like, oh, that's great. He'll be awesome. He's the spot-up shooter they needed. And it didn't really work, but I never understood why it didn't work. And then you explain it in painstaking detail how it didn't work. But I always had a higher respect of Glenn Rice as a basketball player. And then you basically take it apart in about 10 pages. Sorry.

No disrespect to Glenn Rice. Really nice guy. But my funny thing was he came when Kurt Rambis was the interim coach. And Glenn Rice walks out and Kurt Rambis is standing next to Dave Wohl, who's the assistant coach and used to be in Miami with Glenn Rice, just raving about Glenn Rice. And Glenn Rice walks out and Kurt Rambis is standing next to Dave Wool, who's the assistant coach and used to be in Miami with Glenn Rice, just raving about Glenn Rice. And Glenn Rice walks out and Kurt Rambis goes, God, he's fat. And I said to Kurt Rambis, I was like, how do you know? What made you think he was fat?

He's like, I saw the neck rolls. And then he said he'd be taking these shots. And the shots were just, you could see from the time he was releasing that they were off. And he said to Dave Wool, what the heck is this? And Wool was like, I don't know. This isn't the guy we had in Miami. And he just, it was a set.

A lot of guys were saying he just couldn't create off the, off the dribble. He got him a shot. You know, if you shoot out, you know, stop shooter, fine off the dribble.

Not so great. And he was okay with the Lakers. He wasn't, but he wasn't Eddie. He wasn't what he had been at all. Well, that was, they traded for him during the post-lockout season.

Yep. Which a bunch of those guys just put on between 10 and 25 pounds. It was a disaster. That's interesting. And some people just couldn't get it back until the following season. So they lose that year.

And then the next year, at that point, there's, you know, Shaq's at his peak. Kobe's becoming Kobe. There's just no shots. Yeah. And the Richmond thing, point there's you know shacks at his peak kobe's becoming kobe there's just no shots yeah and uh and the the richmond thing you you kind of explained why that didn't work either but that was pretty obvious like he's pretty washed yeah but the there's that piece there about uh he needed four to five minutes to warm up so it was tough to bring him off the bench it was like it sounds like me like when i was before I retired from pickup basketball. Could they have gotten

an exercise bike for him or something? Get his legs going? I don't know. Wes kind of secretly made some bad moves over the years. I think the Kobe Shaq, you get to dine on that forever, but it's not like this guy was thrown

a no-hitter as the GM. I've always felt that way. No, I agree. I mean, to me, the great one is, it's actually from Showtime was thrown a no hitter as the GM. I've always felt that way. No, I agree. I mean, to me, the great one is, uh, it's actually from Showtime, the book when he drafts,

he drafts Earl Jones out of the university of district of Columbia. And he's like, if you're going to make a mistake, make it big. And he did make it big. Earl Jones is seven feet tall. Yeah. He was the worst player that's ever,

you know, existed in the NBA. I mean, well, there's a worse one than that from your book though. He, he wanted to take Sidney Moncrief over Magic. Oh, yeah.

That's like catastrophic. Yeah, that wouldn't have been good. Do you know that, Rosillo? Oh, yeah. No, I know. Because I not only read that, I read the pilot. Oh, yeah.

That was written. The TV show pilot that I don't know the latest. I know basically everything feels like it's been stalled because everything's going on. But that's right

where the TV pilot kind of starts with this idea that there's this this divide between sydney moncrief and magic the weird thing about it is in the tv pilot it's written as if it's almost a national debate and i was like yeah definitely not that was not the case i'm too young to be in the moment then but going back and reading i don't i don't remember that so they didn't even fucking show that i don't even know if they showed that draft on television i don't know if they did either i don't know if they started showing the draft until like 1981 yeah i don't think so i don't think so because i remember listening to the draft on the radio when you're in boston that's how much of a much of a sad 11 year old i was like trying to figure out what we're gonna do with our

second round picks. Psychopath. Back then. Eighth round picks. They're going to take a kid from Emerson. Oh man. So that's what the Celtics used to always do. Yeah.

It was weird times, but yeah, the West thing, I think he's thought of as like this all time, whatever. And he is. Yeah, he actually is. I think,

no, I know, but I think, I think people just think he batted a thousand. I think he is. No, I know, but I think people just think he batted 1,000 and he had misses like everybody else, you know?

I don't think anybody's batted 1,000 in the NBA GM job. No, definitely not. Definitely not. Including my guy, Danny H. Danny H is the reason

Robert Ory became a Laker. Remember, he threw the towel on his face. I went to that game. You were at the game when you got to work? I went to that game.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah, that game. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, that was the thing. It got a grow, like that, you know, when the crowd, they make that sound when something kind of terrible has happened where it's like, oh, it got one of those grown, because it was you know, it was behind their bench or

next to their bench, but I was on the side you know, of where the bench was. So we watched it. It was like, holy shit. He like whipped it at him. It wasn't like a throw. It was like,

he threw it hard. Yeah. Yeah. It was bad. That would have been a big thing in the Twitter era. That's probably a 25 game suspension in Twitter era.

But it led to one of the great swaps in Laker history, which is they get a worry and they give up Chice, Cedric Ceballos. It get a worry and they give up a chice, Cedric Savalios. It's a good swap,

right? Right. Well, you know, the other thing in the book that I, I didn't know this story and I, you know, as a diehard cells fan,

but that Patino fucking over Rick Fox, I'd never, I'd for, I must've forgotten that he did it that way. Yeah. That was incredible. No, he didn't know the rules.

He didn't know the rules. So he did the Travis Knight deal. And then when the NBA was like, look, you can't do this. You can't circumvent the bird rights by going ahead. That's why there were cap holds. Then he still had a chance to get out of it, and he'd rather have Travis Knight for seven years

at 22 million than Rick Fox, who was turning into like a, you know, he wasn't going to be your number one, but he was far more valuable player in the NBA than Travis Knight was ever going to be. And Patino still was like, now I'll go with Travis Knight because I need a big guy. I mean, Patino was far more valuable player in the NBA than Travis Knight was ever going to be. And Patino still was like, now I'll go with Travis Knight. Cause I need a big guy.

It was so mess. He costs Rick Fox, like $30 million. Yeah. But more importantly than that, like it just, it laid the groundwork for what would happen to him in Boston. Like he was a fucking liar.

He really was like, he would say one thing and then do the opposite 12 hours later. And, um, just was never honest about anything. He was was. He would say one thing and then do the opposite 12 hours later and just was never honest about anything. He was the worst coach I've ever rooted for, I think. Travis Knight, who right now, by the way, owns a bed and breakfast in Nicaragua. I thought that was interesting. Wow.

Yeah. Shout out to Nicaragua. Yeah. Shout out. Hated Rick Pitino and had nothing good to say about his year. They all hated him. Not one person was like, I love playingated Rick Pitino and had nothing good to say about his year with the Grips. They all hated him. Not one person was like, I love playing for Rick Pitino.

It was hatred across the board. Yeah. And I was going to those games and they quit on him like a year before they fired him. That whole team, I've never seen, other than maybe Mike Dunleavy and the Clippers, an entire team turn on a coach like that

where you could kind of, was palpable at the games. But I think Iona looks pretty good this year. Is that where he is? Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I got to tell you, we started talking three-ring circus

in the Lakers dynasty. I didn't know how we were going to get it to Patino in those early Celtics years, but we fucking got there. That's what I do. That's what I do. We got there, man. You know, I'm going to get there somehow. Listen, I could have

gone 10 minutes on the Kobe Celtics workout. I didn't. I held off. ML Carr was a big fan. Oh, ML loved him. He let us all know. The dirty Celtics trivia thing on that is if Dallas doesn't swap picks,

because the Celtics had the ninth pick and they swapped. They traded Montrose and the nine for six and took Antoine Walker. If Dallas doesn't want Montrose, the Celts are picking nine. I actually think they would have picked Kobe. I do think it's a legitimate what if

if Dallas said no to that trade. Interesting. Interesting. I could see Jerry West moving up to eight with the Nets and trying to get Kobe ahead of Boston. But you actually thought Boston was going to use the nine. Well, imagine that chess match between Jerry West, one of the legendary GMs, and ML Carr. What a chess match that would have been.

Awesome. Jeff, it's an awesome book book i really appreciate the time here and i also appreciate bill jumping on again it's three ring circus jeff perlman out this week and i love i love jeff's books yeah they're awesome what's the next one do you know yet no but i i mean for this book though real quick like lakers fans are going to love it people that don't like the lakers might like it even more yeah I think that's the rarity of this book. But go ahead. Yeah, Bill's question. Wait, Bill, is that an Auburn hat you're wearing?

Yeah. I'm doing a Bo Jackson's biography as my next book. Oh, wow. We did the 30 for 30 for him. It was so much fun. Yeah, so that's what I'm writing. Bo Jackson. Awesome. Can't wait to read it. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. All right. Awesome. Can't wait to read it. Yeah.

Thank you. I appreciate that. All right. Awesome. Thanks a lot, guys. Thank you guys so much. I really,

yeah, thanks man. I really enjoyed the book. We got life advice coming up, but as we've seen this football season is different. Pepsi is here to get you ready for game day. No matter how you watch this season, I am so excited for the season. And that's not just the script talking.

That's my passion. Pepsi is the refreshment you need to power through game day. Pepsi isn't made for those who play the game. It's made for those who watch it. Yeah. You definitely see more people at home drinking Pepsi than on the sidelines. But, you know, we don't know. Science can change all the time.

Pepsi made for football watching. Go to made for football watching dot com to check out the latest football watching content from Pepsi. You want details? Fine. I drive a Ferrari. 355 Cabriolet. What's up? I have a ridiculous house in the South Fork.

I have every toy you could possibly imagine. And best of all, kids, I am liquid. So, now you know what's possible. Let me tell you can possibly imagine. And best of all, kids, I am liquid. So now you know what's possible. Let me tell you what's required. Lifeadvice, rr at gmail.com. We got a guy here. It looked like he wanted me to use his name, but I'm just going to hook him up here

because some of you guys don't understand how large this audience is. You could, you know, you never know. All right. Hey, Ryan, I'm a 25-year-old who was in week three of working in commercial real estate in Columbus after spending the four years working in college hoops, four years as a student manager and two working full time. We still, you still might get exposed on this. You've mentioned having some finance segments, which I think would be awesome. And it made me think to ask for your advice on how to

deal with this guy, my new job, who thinks he's Jordan Belfort because he invests in the stock market. That is quotes on the invest. I have two issues. One, he picks the most recognizable stocks to invest in and acts like he's discovered a hidden gem. I'm not saying big stocks are bad because they can usually be the safest, but like, oh, nice, more Starbucks or Apple stock. I'm sure this will set your grandkids up for life.

This guy's funny. I like this. Two, to my last point, I don't think putting 100 in any of these companies is going to necessarily move the needle in terms of your financial success. He always hits me with, I go to Starbucks because I'm a shareholder. Oh, yeah, this guy sucks. Like, dude, no one cares about your one share of Starbucks. I'm sure when you go to the bar or loosen your tie and tell all the chicks how dumb Warren Buffett is, that'll make them want to sleep with you anyway love the show love the deep voice okay okay um but how can i let this guy know he's uh a jerk okay um this is good this is a good email look as as we all

navigate through this and i you know i don't i don't want to say it's just my only experience is being a guy. So I can only really speak for us as guys, but I'm sure females have a version of this too, where it's, it's like, what do you want to do? It's kind of like the guy in college who wears a cowboy hat. apart from everybody. I'm going to wear a cowboy hat. Now, if you're a cowboy hat wearer and you're listening to this right now, you probably are going to see a couple of pictures of you where like, I really was cowboy hat for like, I was cowboy hat guy. And like the fedora, I think a fraternity can only have like one cowboy hat guy. Now, if you're really a cowboy, like awesome. Okay. But I'm from the Northeast and there weren't many ranchers coming out of philips andover right so i i'm saying this because as you get older and you think you're older you're still kind of you know if you're completely not insecure about anything like congrats to you because i think people are generally way more insecure than they ever and you know people always like to say and i've mentioned this like oh you

know like nothing bothers me and all this stuff. And you're like, all right, whatever. My legs don't get cold. Right. Yeah. My legs don't get cold. But you'll see that cowboy hat guy and maybe cowboy hat guy goes, Hey, you know what? I was in college and I was wearing a cowboy hat.

I thought it looked good. And then I moved on from that. Now I have two kids and a wife. Everything's fine. Again, cowboy hats, like not the worst thing you can be. But in your twenties, as you're navigating your professional life, you can overcompensate for something. Cause again, you're trying to kind of set yourself apart where clearly stock guy here feels some kind of self-worth by telling everybody else how sick his portfolio is.

And know that if he's saying he goes to Starbucks because he's a shareholder and we're all of the fairly safe assumption here that it's not some massive portfolio because he is still working. Right. You never know family money every now and then. But you just you just got to let him wear the hat and kind of laugh at him when he's not around. Like you could tell him to fuck off, but why? Why would you make this situation? Sometimes you're just going to let people do the thing that they think is cool. He thinks this is cool to talk about his stocks. He's probably a little insecure about some other stuff in general. Even though you're young and you're right to be annoyed, the great thing about getting older is that less stuff should annoy you. And then I think there's another weird pendulum that happens much later in life, like far beyond my age now, where everything starts to annoy you again.

But it'd be great if you actually were annoyed by less things. So you should actually look at this as an opportunity to be annoyed by less things and go, all right, you know, he's annoying about stocks. He says the dumbest shit and he talks about it, but I don't know. I mean, unless you hate the guy, I guess you could tell him off, but why invest that kind of energy?

I agree with you, but I think he should definitely write back if this ever comes to a head in a goodwill hunting Harvard bar sort of situation. Like he really reads up on the stocks and then just comes at him uh you mean you mean like the book thing like not not the not i got her number yeah because i think everybody always goes to the number that's really good that's a good observation out of you kyle yeah because the warren buffett part of this email is hilarious because yes like the the day The day trader world on social media, that is the most sensitive group of motherfuckers I have ever seen hit send on anything. Okay, we can talk about fan bases.

And I mean, in this Toronto thing that I went through and all of us that have done this a long time, we know the fan bases that you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, that was a rough one. Or this group or soccer fans for the longest time were so annoying about soccer. And it was like, why don't you guys talk soccer more? I'm like, cause you don't want me talking soccer. And then I wasn't, I would, I think I was, I believe I was the first person to say it, but it was such a good line. Other people took it as it wasn't, it was like, I don't hate soccer. I just don't hate, I hate soccer guy. Um, and now I actually kind of love soccer, but I just don't really have the time for it to get into a premier league team or any of that kind of stuff. When the world cup rolls around, like I'm in, I'm in that throwing that stuff on morning West coast. It's incredible.

That stuff's awesome. And so soccer guy was always kind of right, but soccer guy was really annoying in the way he went about it. And so whenever I think a day trader guy, I don't know, what's your formula? You never lose? You only know the answers? You don't know the answers. You're fucking guessing like everybody else is. You may do way more research. And really, it comes down to, on the day trading front,

what are you willing to lose? Where are you emotionally when you lose? Do you make emotional mistakes? Are you trying to become a millionaire overnight because it's not going to lose? Where are you emotionally when you lose? Do you make emotional mistakes? Are you trying to become a millionaire overnight because it's not going to work? And day trading, honestly, you probably need your brains beat in at an early age. And I had my brains beat in where I was like, okay, I'm actually glad I did this now before I had a lot of money. Because if I had just started doing this at 40, I would go... Because man, when day trading is right and it's in

the beginning, it's the most amazing feeling in the world. You're like, holy shit. I just made 7% of my money back in an hour. This is nuts. I can do this. And then you're just grinding away, you're grinding away, you're making trades. And look, I was doing it while I was doing the afternoon show at ESPN, which I didn't really want to brag about to too many people. And Van Pelt would be like, what are you doing over there? I'm like, we're all over the board today. And then when Van Pelt left the show and then Cannell jumped in, and Cannell actually day traded for years. He lost $2 million.

And he's told the story, so I'm not selling him out here. here but he was down 1.1 million and he saw the red number and then uh i imagine whatever screen he had up like the black number of like 900 and something thousand dollars and canal was like oh my god like i just lost a million but he was trading like oil futures he was watching like the japanese indexes i mean he was he was in it in it and then i'd be over there doing my stupid pharmaceutical stuff on just normal i wasn't doing anything too complicated because I didn't really understand it. And Cannell, it was like a crack addict watching another guy hit the pipe in front of him. And although Cannell's never seen me do crack, but it was that kind of thing where Cannell was like, what are you doing?

What are you doing? And I was killing it forever. And then you're just arrogant. You start thinking like, oh my God, I'm so smart at this. We're like, yeah, whatever. Why wouldn't I invest in more pharmaceutical? It's not like people aren't going to know it's just dumb shit and i'm embarrassed to even say it now to be like it's not like people are gonna stop getting sick bro and then guess

what like um i mean i could i could tell more of this story but like the whole pharmaceutical sector got turned upside down for years where all sorts of stocks were getting wiped out that didn't deserve it but they were all like um guilt by association because the sector was, was a mess. There's a bunch of different stuff going on. Um, but I, you know, I remember in the beginning being like, oh my God, like I could buy a boat now. This is nuts. Um, and then you're like, wait, what's that wash sale thing mean? Oh, wait, what's the new, what's the Obama capital gains tax rule? Like, what did, what did they do do and then you go to your accountant he's like what were you doing this year you go well i don't know i thought i killed it

he's like but you kind of didn't because you didn't understand any of the tax rules and all this stuff so anyway um be careful day traders but yes day trade guy that's really like there's gonna be people that listen to this segment they're like you still don't know what you're talking about i'm fucking telling you i don't know what you're talking about. I'm fucking telling you, I don't know what I'm talking about. I just know that I went through it and did it. And I'm glad I got that out of my system because the biggest problem with all the investing stuff, and this is the same, no matter who you are, it's what are your expectations? Are your expectations that you're going to solve all your financial problems overnight? Because it's a really great feeling when you wake up and the stock that you have kills it in the pre-market and there's all

this good news or there's this new test or something's going to get passed or quarter killed and no one thought it and the street was wrong and all. And you're like, look at all of this free money. It's staring right in the face and I can just hit a button and now the money's all mine and this is awesome. You're like, yep. Or how come people lose? Why don't they just sell?

Okay, well, welcome to after hours or pre-market news that's really bad about your company. It's not easy. It's really stressful. Most people I don't think emotionally are fit to do it because of the ups and downs and how steady you have to be. And I don't know. Eventually I was just kind of like, look, I like real estate better. And my friends hate real estate. Some of my friends hate it because they're like, I just like hitting a button and being out and then all

that money's mine. Like, yeah, but you know what? I usually don't wake up. And like, if there's rain headed to LA, my portfolio is worth half because somebody else said it was on a TV show. So dangerous stuff out there, but I'm not saying it isn't fun. And I'm not saying there isn't some value in investing with very tempered expectations. The guy that's like, I want to make 5% to 7%. Okay, that's great. What's wrong with making 5% to 7% of anything? The problem is when your buddy makes a trade and he's like, Oh my God, I doubled my money in six months. And you're like, I want to do that. Well, you know, check in with that guy another six months because nobody goes on that kind of run forever. I don't think we need to do any other ones. Um, because I ended up getting into the investment thing a little bit too much

there. So, uh, let's just say goodbye. Long pod today. And I had fun with this, and I really enjoyed that Perlman book, man. So have a great weekend. And Bill and I actually are going to be going tomorrow night. Yeah, Thursday night after what would be game four, right? Is that the plan, Kyle? All right.

Well, there you go. Please subscribe, rate, and. Ryan Russillo Podcast. Ringer Podcast Network. Spotify. Thank you.