The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Life Advice Plus Media Covering Media With Bryan Curtis | The Ryen Russillo Podcast

Episode Date: April 30, 2020

Russillo answers some listener-submitted questions about buying a home, switching jobs, balancing sports with relationships, and more (1:12), before talking with The Ringer’s Bryan Curtis about today’s media landscape, how it has been affected by the coronavirus pandemic, covering entities like ESPN, starting out as a young journalist, and much more (23:10). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

today's episode of the ryan russo podcast on the ringer podcast network is brought to you by state farm just like sports the game of life is unpredictable talk to a state farm agent and get a teammate who can help you navigate the unexpected and unpredictable what would be unpredictable this week can help you navigate the unexpected and unpredictable. What would be unpredictable this week? Any ideas, Kyle? Andy Dalton is off the banks. How excited are you going to be?

Will you buy an Andy Dalton jersey if he goes to the Pats? No, no, no, no. So Bill's already got me out on it. No, but at least there's some excitement with Stidham, I think. Bill already got me all riled up for like, don't get mediocre Andy Dalton. So that would be unexpected to me because I've already decided that the Patriots decided not to have Andy Dalton.

You know what would actually be predictable? Would be if Dalton ends up on the Pats and Bill in a couple weeks going, you know, I like it. Like the more I've thought about it, the more I like it. Get a teammate who can help you navigate the unexpected. Talk to a State Farm agent today. The plan for a Thursday. Brian Curtis, long discussion.

Just media, a bunch of different stuff. I hope you like it. We get into kind of the industry and our own paths a little there. I know I probably talk about it, but it's just kind of to be outside of the ESPN stuff and talk with somebody that covers ESPN. So there you go. We're going to do that with Brian Curtis. And I really do like his podcast, the Press Box podcast that he does here for Spotify and The Ringer. But we're going to start you off on kind of a getting into the weekend.

Remember, this is the weekend coming up. For some of you, the weekend's already started, but what are you going to do? We're going to do a little live mailbag for you. I don't know that it's really live because it is a podcast, but Kyle sent over a ton of emails, so I appreciate that.

Again, if you want to email us for this segment, it is lifeadvicerr at gmail.com. And I'm ready to roll, Kyle, if you you are ready so we'll do that first how's that sound yeah i i can't wait okay all right sound i like that you get the microphone there because people worried about you there for a little while okay i did flag the right ones here i hope um i did okay let's start with uh everybody wants to be anonymous here can you blame them no but i i don't uh i think he's giving me a fake name here um okay i i gotta come up with let's call this guy

um frank all right frank first i want to say i'm a huge fan can't tell you how much i appreciate the content uh okay all right laying out some quick facts here is my situation 28 married a year and a half been together nine years total man shout out for commitment that's early 19 what are you from canada um we'll find out first kid on the way due in july oh both of us have lived in michigan our whole lives there you go close to canada it was close currently live about four hours for both my parents and my wife's mom um her dad passed away a few years ago. Sorry to hear about that. So he says, look, I'm at a job now. It's fine. A lot of you guys start these emails this way. So

let's see what this one has. I don't love it, but I'm making decent money and it's stable. For example, I'm usually in an office setting every day, but I'm able to work from home since the start of the stay at home order. Shocker. A lot of us have, man, which I'm super grateful for considering the millions who've lost their jobs. Well said. I was lucky enough to get hired straight out of college after getting to know a few of my professors who were well-connected in the industry that my degree is in. I've been at this place five years, climbed the ladder pretty quickly due to some fortunate circumstances from an entry-level position to director of ops. Now to the advice part.

I have a potential job lined up in Colorado. My old boss took a job out there a year ago, has been adamant about creating a position for me to become his number two. You know what you need in any office is a strong number two. I've been considering this for months, slightly, before we found out my wife was pregnant. So, okay, so he's considering

this the whole time, and then that happened. He just found out the wife's pregnant. He's like, moving out west is the dream that both oh, he says his wife also has this dream, because it sucks having solo dreams when you're married. Right, man. Um, since I can remember, we love the outdoors. Haven't grown up in Michigan and living in a place like, uh, Glenwood Springs or, you know, Colorado. I'm trying to keep them anonymous here. Be right up our alley. Okay. It also includes a significant pay increase, which it should because of the difference in cost of living. Okay, so now here's the point. With our firstborn on the way, dynamics change

a little. It's tough because they know we're going to want to be around family, but it's not like we live 20 minutes from them. It's now a four-hour drive, one way to see them. Four hours, one way to see parents. Is it still okay to pursue our dream of living out West if it means sacrificing distance between ourselves and our kid with families, especially considering everything going on with the coronavirus. Okay. He also says there's great relationships with the parents, by the way, I can tell you this. It's something I never thought about until I got older. And then your friends start having families is that the proximity to parents, parents that you get along with is one of the greatest things ever when you're going to start a family, you have this freedom that a lot of other people aren't going to have. Having family around is one of the

greatest things because there's just an intimate trust there of these people watching over your kids. And it allows you that break that I think parents, a lot of divorces, I always feel like, you know, you don't want to say it's the kid's fault, but the kid dynamic can change it so much. And if you don't have the means, you don't have the proximity or somebody who's really, really busy, the fairness and sharing of the kid can get totally screwed up. And, you know, somebody resents the other person. And all of a sudden it's like, I liked you. I just don't like this situation. So having said all those things, if they're four hours away, they might as be 40 hours away because four hours, let's put it this way.

Anything over like a two and a half hour drive is just far enough that it's not going to be like the pop in. Right. Like my brother lives in thousand Oaks and I don't go see them all the time. And I just went to visit because they have a niece or it's my niece is technically the term. Um, she's one and a half. And I spent the night up there and

loved it and was like i love hanging out with my little niece here but usually that's a two-hour drive depending on the day you know and this time it was an hour and we're both like yeah it's not super convenient so the point is is i would say this uh i always think everybody should move even if you like where you're from when people are are in small, I think the small towns, it happens a little bit more. I know Martha's Vineyard, where I'm from, has it a lot, where it's this kind of thing where you just always want to be there. You like your little bubble. You feel safer.

You're more protected. But if you don't have family down the street and you want to live in Colorado, I'm a huge Colorado fan, I think everybody should always make the move once. And at this point, too, you can do it because your kid's not even going to be in Colorado. I'm a huge Colorado fan. I think everybody should always make the move once. And at this point too, you can do it because your kid's not even going to be in school. So I would say absolutely make the move and worry about the other stuff later. I would not be making, uh, I wouldn't decide to not move because of the coronavirus. That's, that's not the way I would plan out anything. So I would say, go ahead and move. I mean, it's great that you have great relationship with your parents. I would love to have the kind of relationship where if I were starting a family and I knew

like my mom and dad were coming over and the grandparents were going to be hanging out. Well, that's never going to happen for me. So I'm not, I'm not, I don't even think about it. Like I don't even think about it, even though I could appreciate how much it would be great to have that as an option. But it sounds like you don't even have that as an option. So I would say go ahead, pack up the bags, move to Colorado. You can always move home because when you do move and you kind of regret the move, it makes you appreciate going home that much more.

Boom. Problem solved. Next one. Oh, here's one. Uh, this guy wants to be called RD. His nickname is research and development. Oh, script. I do get thrown a lot of these my way. Let's just put it this way. I need to be a tad more established before I can green light your idea. That's just something to think about before maybe you send me a proposal. But RD just chimes in. He didn't get the warning ahead of time. I've got a pilot done for the script I wrote and was wondering if I should pursue it. It's about a dynamic dude that gets into partying and it changes his life for better and for worse. I want to show the good times, but also how this person evolved and devolved as a human being along the way. Think of a more fun, relatable version of euphoria if you've seen it. Story takes place

in Westchester, New York. Do you think this would work slash be unique? I got to tell you, blink reaction, it feels a tad thin. It feels a little thin. When Bill Lawrence was on with us, creator of Scrubs, Spin City, Cougar Town, Whiskey Cavalier, he said that everybody he's ever met was always like oh i have this story and it's never been done before and he's like yeah it has it just didn't get made uh this i just think you needed a couple more characters here before it's just a guy who parties a lot and then we see the good side and bad side i'm not saying it's a terrible idea right what you know right rd but it's going to need a little bit more depth. That's my first guess.

Let's do a quick read. Speaking of partying, during this time of social distancing, connecting with friends over beer today looks pretty different. As the original Light Beer, Miller Light has always been there to bring people together in real life

through Miller Time. Miller Time is a moment for people to come together in real life to connect over a few beers, but having Miller Time is tough when you can't be with your people. I'm most excited to see anyone, honestly. The script says, who do I most want to see? I don't really even care at this point.

This has been a pretty intense isolation for your boy over here, so I'd be excited to get into an argument with a stranger at this point. Miller Lite is the beer that makes Miller time possible. Miller Lite is the only original light beer that tastes great and is less filling, which means it won't get in the way of enjoying time with your people. You know what I've said about Miller Lite, right? That little can, that little white can of goodness. Just go.

This feels like home. It feels like the end of the quarantine i'm not guaranteeing it but i just you know miller light the original light beer while you're home enjoy a classic available for delivery today celebrate responsibly miller brewing company milwaukee wisconsin 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces okay another one this guy just turned 27, and his question is, should I buy a house or a condo? Kyle, are you a homeowner? Greg? Shocker.

I'm not. Not a huge. Any plans? Still boosting the credit. It does kill me to pay rent. It really does. Where's the credit score right now? It's like sevens.

It's fluctuating. You know, the thing is, did you know there's two credit scores? Well, what do you mean? Well, it's fluctuating. You know, the thing is, did you know there's two credit scores? Well, what do you mean? Well, it depends. Well, it depends on. So I went to get a loan for something. And, you know, I got my stuff through the Chase app. And I could see my credit score thing.

Or no, it's through Capital One. Credit-wise or something. And I thought my shit was like through the roof. And then I went to go, you know, down to put the pen to paper and they're like, Hey, so we have to use the lowest one that we could find. And Experian, which is, I think the, the standard is a little bit different than what mine says. So I'm still trying to work through that. And when you get older, you're going to learn there's a third credit score. Did you know that? No, no, I didn't. So you, you know that no no i didn't so you you know there's three different companies that do your credit score so it's experian it's uh is it like western connection or something what's it

called that sounds like a dating website no it's transunion and equifax transunion that's what it right so you're gonna do like there's all those credit repair things you know what you know you know, what fixes your credit score, paying your fucking bills. Okay. I signed up for that stuff. Look, I screwed it up in my twenties. Like a lot of people do. You don't understand. I also think credit scores can be a bit like being a social outcast where if you know, everybody in your town already thinks you're a weirdo. It's the same thing with your credit score. Like when when it's low then you keep making decisions that aren't ever going to help on par with your score yeah you're just like whatever i my credit sucks anyway so now i don't care and it wasn't like i was charging stuff on a credit card and not paying it it was just you know i got behind my student loans because of um an arrangement that didn't get fulfilled. And I was screwed. So I took a job

for no money thinking the student loan thing, I was going to be fine. And then I wasn't. And then I was like, all right, well, this is shattering all of it. But yes, there's three scores. The whole credit score thing's stupid. The fact that mine will go down as I'm trying to refi something because then they farm it out to a bunch of different people to run your number and then it goes down. Or when I bought the last house I bought, the guy tried to come back at me and say, oh, the credit score got dinged a little bit. I was like, well, that's because I have a ton of credit card balance, but it's not over 30 days. He's like, yeah, the credit card balance is a little high. We might have to tweak the number a little bit, which I think is total

bullshit anyway that they were just trying to do this to mess with the score a little. And I go, the only reason the credit card balance is high right now is because i actually am moving across the country and i've had a lot of expenses in these last 30 days like you get that right like that i would be spending more normally than you know usual on a credit card because i'm i can't tell if today's podcast sucks or is uh i don't i don't i don't know like hey yeah rossillo went for 12 minutes on the flaws of credits credit scores are it's tricky man yeah part of it i get but there's another part of it that's really nasty like if you close out a credit card you don't want any

more than your credit score goes down what what is that like if anything it should be like this look how stable this guy is get back to getting back to paper bills. Scores through the roof. Okay, so let's call our guy AJ. Because I just turned 27, doing the whole corporate accounting thing in Columbus. Sneaky nice city, he says. I would agree. Ten years ago, not the case.

He's been living with roommates the past few years, which is awesome. More fun. Keeps the rent cheap. My roommate is moving in with his girlfriend at the end not the case. He's been living with roommates the past few years, which is awesome. More fun. Keeps the rent cheap. My roommate is moving in with his girlfriend at the end of the summer. I will most likely be living by myself and thinking about buying a small place condo. But I don't know if that's just me forcing it because that's what everyone is doing around me. Life advice for buying your first place.

Any regrets from your first home purchase? Should I keep renting? Okay. So we talked with you, Kyle, about that. How old are you? 26. Yeah, 26, LA property. It's probably not coming around the corner.

Let's get that credit back around. Let's start putting a certain number that you have to make yourself save before you buy yourself vapes or anything like that. See what I'm saying? That's the only way you can do it. Yeah, I got the automatic savings out happening right now. Yeah, you got to take it out.

It doesn't even exist. And then it just grows on its own like weeds in the back. Kind of crazy. Yeah, isn't it? First time. My first time home purchase was weird because I thought I was getting married. I was buying a place with somebody else.

And then that, like, while we were looking for the place, we broke up. So I was like, all right. So then I kept looking at like mini Connecticut mansions because I just thought that that's what I was supposed to do. And the realtor's like, you realize you get like, you're probably not starting a family now. So I was like, yeah, that's fair.

So I went condo townhouse because I was also doing college football a lot. And I didn't realize like I never wanted to be a condo guy. But what I didn't realize is that when you're gone all the time and that stuff gets taken care of and people mow your lawn and all that kind of stuff. And I wouldn't even say they did a great job with it. It is kind of nice. So I got a three bedroom just for resale and renting. So you may want to keep it. But if you're buying a one bedroom condo, you're really limiting who you're going to be able to sell it to. So

I would say get at least a two bedroom. The payment thing isn't that big of a deal. There is, I always do always, because I think our older generation here, and I'm talking about my parents, it was always the 30 year fixed and that was your retirement, all the money that you put in, the principal and paying down the house. You're not going to live in this place for 30 years. So I would say keep the payment low. It's going to live in this place for 30 years. So I would say keep the payment low. It's going to be lower than your rent is. There's all sorts of great products out there if your credit doesn't suck.

And I would get on one of those. And then, look, if you don't like it and you're lonely and you don't like living by yourself in a two-bedroom condo, you can rent out the other room or you can rent out the whole thing and move in with your friends when his girlfriend dumps him.

Problem solved. We're getting a lot of workout ones. Everybody's different. I am incredibly overrated in this department. I don't know how to help you. Some of you guys just aren't going to fill out, man. I hate saying that to you. But it's just not going to, you know,

some of you guys just aren't going to be huge. Sorry. I tell you to go to Instagram. There's a lot of workouts there that you can find. But, you know, okay, this is a weird one. This is from a guy that plays football. I don't know if I'm supposed to say anybody's name now because everybody's i'll just not say the guy's name because everybody's gonna be able to figure it out if i do a couple questions a little background

on me i'm a football player at k-state prepping for my senior season have to adjust my training quite a bit due to the lack of access to weights i was wondering what type of training you've been doing oh see here we go been doing during quarantine, I assume with all the high prices on things like weights, you've adjusted your program quite a bit. Well, I'm actually not in college, so I have a paycheck. So I went and spent way too much money on rogue equipment. And I've got the full squat rack in my house now with a bench, plates, the whole deal.

But he asked if I was doing more high reps, low weight. God, what is the point here? I would love to learn a little more about your style. Also, during school, I bartended events at a local hotel. During one event, a customer ordered a Moscow Mule, which is not on our menu. Keep in mind, there was a keg provided for the beer event. Am I within bartender rights to kick her out?

This guy's a meathead. You want to kick out of a girl from a hotel event because she asked for a Moscow mule? Moscow mules are incredible. They're really tasty. They're refreshing as is all hell. And I don't know if I even want to give you any workout tips, man. Sound mean. This isn't even real. This email is real kyle i don't i don't well i don't know i just i just looked it might be real i love that he likes the show i like

that he's checking in i don't like that you thought it was okay to kick somebody out for asking for a mousetrap mule i may not have all the information here and i would say go on instagram just go and look at those guys. They're somehow still in Bali in biking shorts working out. I don't know how that happened during a quarantine, but it's happening. Okay, last one, Kyle. There are some really good ones in here that you sent, so thanks. Ryan, at what age or what point did you accept being single and focusing on all your attention on sports all of your attention on sports and other interests you have i feel conflicted between wanting to find a girlfriend because i want the connection and continuing to watch 40 plus hours

of sports per week this whole quarantine situation hasn't been super helpful for this situation either with the inability to socially date while also not having three hours of dodgers games and nba playoff games to rewatch every night. Thanks. Here's what I'm going to tell you, man. Okay, every single thing we do in life is a negotiation. If you are the one that's like the more desirable one in the relationship, because we can pretend this doesn't exist, but it does all exist. If you're like a catch for her versus her being a catch for you,

you're probably going to be able to watch 40 plus hours a week of sports, even with a girlfriend. Now, if she is a catch for you, and maybe is your apex mountain of dating, to use the rewatchables term, guess what you're not going to be doing bud you're not going to be watching 40 hours of baseball a week you're just not you know what's really hard to do is to justify to your girlfriend and then wife that you need to watch 40 hours of baseball or basketball a week and that's not even including football when you don't get paid for it i get paid for it and people that hang out with me still are like are you serious like you can't can't dial it back a little bit

and i was like so i've had a lot of guys kind of chime in on this deal where you go hey how do you how are you able to do the the 40 hours a week thing or whatever and you just go what like what are you what are you talking about and um be like well you know i my girlfriend doesn't really want me to to do this i'm like okay so she doesn't want you to watch 40 hours of baseball a week or basketball whatever it it is, and you want to still have her as your girlfriend, like, well, sort of. I'm like, you just answered your own question. You don't like her. It's not the baseball. If you like the other person enough or you don't want it to end, you will watch less baseball. I think it's pretty simple. Okay, Brian Curtis

coming up here in a second, but I want to tell you about Postmates. I love food. That's why I love using Postmates, but I kind of love them even more right now because I can get food delivered without leaving the house or even now opening the door. I'm telling you right now, every order left at the door, they take a picture, I see it, boom. Given what's going on in the world, they created the non-contact deliveries. So now when I order from local restaurants, everything gets left right outside my door. They also have Postmates pickup so you can order takeout from your favorite local restaurants. Listen up. You guys need to be supporting your neighborhood spots right now.

I've been doing it usually a little more regularly. I was cooking like crazy. And then I just said, you know, I'm back on that Postmates train because the no contact thing, keeping it safe. And I just think it's good to be doing with the local businesses. And the great thing about it, too, for where I live, there's places that never delivered before that now are delivering. Maybe the next town over and Postmates has been able to bring that and make it happen. And Postmates doesn't just deliver burgers and sushi.

They can make your life easier by picking up everything you need from Walgreens, 7-Eleven, or whichever stores you shop at and dropping it off outside your door. Just download Postmates on the iOS or Android. Find your favorites and get anything you want delivered within the hour. For a limited time, Postmates is giving listeners $100 of free delivery credit for your first seven days. To start your free deliveries, download the app and use code RRSHOW. That's code RRSHOW for $100 of free delivery credit for your first seven days when you download the Postmates app. Anything you need, anytime you need it, Postmate it.

I would argue he's as good as anyone covering media. I know Bill Simmons feels that way. And every time he does a long form feature on somebody or a story in media, it's a must read for those of us, especially that are in it. And it's Brian Curtis from The Ringer. Now, not only do you have the Pressbox podcast, but as I was making sure I got all this right, you're our editor too. I don't know that I was aware of that. It's a fake title. Oh, okay. Editor at large. Yeah. What does that mean? I get, I get pitched lots of stories online and

I also get pitched lots of opportunities to grow the ringers audience um and i'm like i've never felt better to say i'm not in charge there's someone else you're gonna have to ask about that what's the worst pitch what's the worst idea for a story that you were pitched recently oh you know i get i get the super quarantine um story that's like this is the piece I've wanted to write my whole life, and nobody would ever take it because there were too many actual sports. So here it is, right? And the athletic said no. So maybe the ringer will say yes.

That's pretty much what I get. So you get a lot of that. All right, yeah. Because right as you were saying that sentence ago, no one would ever let me do this but now. And you go, well, now there's probably a reason why no one has not let you do it before. So how did you...

Give me a little bit of your background and then transitioning into being media that covers media, which isn't the... It's not the only thing you do, but you do a good chunk of it. So I always think that that pivot's kind of interesting for guys that start on one side of it. I think I was, in a weird way,

sort of destined to do this. And I don't mean that in a sort of, you know, infatuated with myself way. But when I read newspapers as a kid, because all we had were newspapers, my line of vision would go from that big photo of like the Texas Rangers sliding into home plate above the fold and would go from that big photo of like the Texas Rangers sliding into home plate above the fold and would go to the columnist picture

who was like, you know, the picture that was the size of your driver's license photo. I'd be like, what's that guy like? I want, I want to know more about that guy. And that job did not exactly exist.

So I would just write pieces when I could. I did a little bit for the New York times when they had a quarterly magazine, but then the basic answer to your question is bill. Let me, and bill, let me do it in a way that was interesting and not soul killing. And I never had to write the column that said,

you know, Hey, I don't know if you watched that documentary on ESPN last night, but it got a 4.1. I mean, you know, 4.1, not,

not 4.0, not 4.2, but a 4.1 big night for ES 4.1 not not 4.0 not 4.2 but a 4.1 big night for espn huge night congrats to all he never made me write that column which is why i wanted to keep doing this did you have a huge poster then like rudy martzki growing up yeah that was my that was my fat head growing up in my bedroom you don't um so that's pretty cool like i can always kind of think about things as a kid i was like oh why i did that and now what i do now actually makes a little bit more sense so what what was the first thing that you got reception on that it was like okay not only

are you interested in this but you're good at it too because i always feel like you find these things about the subject that I go, wow, I do this for a living and I hadn't really ever thought of that angle. It was a bunch of really punk columns I wrote when I was in my 20s. I had one where I went back and looked at Mel Kuyper's mock drafts and he was totally wrong. He was wrong 100% of the time in terms of picking which teams would pick actual players. And so I just wrote this call by this guy ranks all these prospects, but he has no idea what's going to happen in the draft, which now is probably more

of a forgivable offense in my eyes, if we're being honest. But I thought, Oh yeah, I got no, you know, Mel, I'm going to, I'm going to show the world that Mel doesn't quite know what he's talking about, but it'd be stuff like that because, you know, people hadn't written that maybe in quite that way back in the innocent days of 2001 or whenever that was. So I would just write that kind of stuff. And, you know, and then I got curious about like, like I was on the rivals network, you know, cause I'm a university of Texas guy in the 2000. So I would write a piece about why college football fans really liked that kind of journalism, right? It was a little Homer ish, you know, but you kind of wanted the Homer ish environment. And in some ways that was preferable to a newspaper guy who was telling you that your team sucked. So I'd write columns like

that. And it was basically just like what I was reading or, or observing nothing, no, no magic to it. The punk thing is perfect because I don't know what it is about us, especially men in our 20s. We're collectively assholes. Like we just are. And we're more convinced we're right than maybe any other stage.

And I'm more convinced I don't know the answers to stuff as I get older and older. But there's something about your 20s and especially something about going after the proven person when you have zero credibility and the Mel things. Perfect. By the way, I'm going to stick up for Mel a little bit here.

Did you do player for predicted slot? Did you, is that how you graded it? Cause that's a really hard way to do it. Cause if like one's off, yeah, if one's off, then it sets the whole thing in motion. So you wouldn't give him any credit if he got like 26 first rounders, right? I was a tough critic. I was incredibly tough. Because you wanted to prove a point.

You wanted to be like, yeah, right. Yeah, if there was a trade, I didn't let Mel off the hook. Absolutely. And by the way, when you're the punk 20-year-old, isn't it amazing 10, 20 years later when you then get to talk to all these people? And it's this amazing reckoning of who brings it up, who brings it up, who doesn't bring it up, but remembers and who just totally forgot. It's kind of like three categories. And, and Mel, by the way, it was whatever I've talked to Mel,

no mention, you know, no, no mention. I mean, just, just, he's totally Mel. So I don't, I don't know if he remembers. I don't know if he doesn't, but it's, um, that's always funny to me. How, when you're a big shot media guy, how do you handle the punky 20 year old who then grew up and you know became kind of a less punky middle-aged guy yeah i probably wouldn't forget but i i certainly wouldn't care though you know what i mean i would do it in a way well i guess you'd say if you don't forget that means you care but i don't know like mel mel's unbelievable i stick up for him all the time to my buddies because if you meet him it's he's like he's unlike any other guy i've ever met i'm serious in the business like he has this way about him where it doesn't

matter who you are on the totem pole at espn he will stop and talk and make you feel like you're the biggest deal like he couldn't like there's nothing more important than him asking you how you're doing and how your day's going. And then he'll follow up with you too. So it's not like the over the top insincere, look how great of a guy I am. Like the next time Mel rolls through, cause a lot of guys have nailed that. And it was like, man, that guy's such a great guy. He'd be like that whole five minute act.

Like you fell for that guy. Forgot your name. 12 seconds into the conversation. Mel is a different breed that way. like you fell for that guy forgot your name 12 seconds into the conversation mel is uh mel's a different breed that way and that's why i've always liked him even though um yeah i mean it's really easy to pick apart people hate mock draft guy i think almost as much as any sports media member because i know i'm serious because like talk show yes because the opinion stuff people don't get mad at anchors anymore but if you look at although play-by-play guy like

whenever i think of people talking about how much this play-by-play guy sucks i'll say hey here's here's an exercise give me the list of your 10 most hated play-by-play guys in sports and then give me a list of your favorite 10 and let me know which one's easier to fill out because we all know that it's the first one but draft guy has a little extra to it and i know this is the case for what i do too is like most people just listen to me and go how fucking hard is that like i could do that i like basketball i like football i i didn't play anywhere that guy didn't play anything and even really cover anything like how i could have just done that and my thing will be like yeah but you but you didn't. So stop. And mock drafts.

I do think that there's so many people that are into college football or into the draft that go, these guys get stuff wrong. Like I could just go ahead and do that. I feel like mock draft guy angst is a number one seed. Yeah. And then I've noticed week after there's a lot of mock draft credit claiming for like the one third round pick you got, right? That's what you take this big victory lap right and there's also draft guy gets this other round because if draft guy

likes your team's draft he becomes huge right like oh do you know dane brugler a plus you know yeah and the guy knows what he's talking about yeah there'll be these long form right like over the last three years you know this you know doug's pics dot tv has been the number one um there was a guy i saw taking credit for calling brady to tampa to his friend he was a media member that had never tweeted it and was like i knew this a month ago i told at steve 100 And then I was like, wait a minute, is that like, this is a verified account. I go, this guy's actually taking a victory lap on telling his buddy and no one else that he thought Tom was going to Tampa Bay. But see, that's another thing too. Like, are you better off just telling everybody how awesome you are? If you're in the

media, are you better off lying about your ratings? Are you better off just giving everybody how awesome you are if you're in the media are you better off lying about your ratings are you better off just giving out the message one constantly telling people how great you are because then i think people actually just believe you so i think it's the right way to do it we reward commitment to the bit you know that commitment to the bit papers over things we don't like like like steven a who was hated you know we're kind of very i would say had a big streak you There was a lot of Stephen A hate in the universe five years ago. I think eventually he was just so committed to being Stephen A that a lot of that got papered over. I'd say Mel's in that category too, by the way. It's like, oh, look at this ridiculous draft guy. Remember that was a thing in the 80s? Who

is this guy that NFL draft? And it's like 30 years later later he's like the grand old man of the NFL draft you know he was he was he hung in there so I do I do think all the incentives are to say you're you're the best you get great ratings all that stuff because then people sort of weirdly respect it in a way rather than wondering out loud if you're doing the wrong thing with your life you're approaching it the wrong way um the steven a thing is is pretty interesting though because it wasn't now it's sort of a funny eye roll about it where you're right when he was younger do you think it's just him getting older or people just accepting it there's been a lot of bad imitators right we recognize i think at some level that he's better at it than a lot of people who have tried to kind of fill in the,

the corners of the Stephen A universe. But yeah, I think as you get older, you become more, you become more respected. There's like a political version of this, whereas Senator who's like terrible when they turn 90, it's like,

ah, you know, got to give him credit hung in there a long time. Maybe. I don't know if they do that anymore. The only thing was Stephen A and I've always liked him. I've gotten along with him. Despite people thinking maybe we don't know if they do that anymore the only thing was steven a and i've always liked him i've gotten along with him um despite people thinking maybe we don't uh but we get along you know now we're not like close or anything like that but i i guess i don't know if it's

the bit i do think he believes when he does an interview saying no one can sit at that desk with him that he does believe that and i as somebody who does it like i look i laugh at that like what are you gonna to tackle me? Like, I just, you don't think, you don't think there's some of us that can hang in a debate with you about stuff, but I wasn't really on that show after the Skip Bayless thing. I was supposed to be his fill-in and then he got me banned from the show. So I didn't have that opportunity. So, whoa, I didn't know that part.

Yeah, no, it's whatever it's I've told the story before, so I don't have that opportunity. Whoa. I didn't know that part. Yeah. No, it's whatever. I've told the story before, so I don't want to be repetitive. Okay, so during everything that we're going through now, Brian, how have you seen things that have worked, haven't worked, as everybody that's on the sports side of this is trying to figure out a way to keep the content rolling because the stations don't turn off? Well, it's like a spectrum, right? There's on the one hand that people saying the coronavirus

is the only story in the world. So even if we're sports people, we have to sort of be reckoning with this in some way every day. When are the games going to come back? How are people feeling? How are athletes feeling? What are athletes doing? That kind of thing. It's the only topic. And then there's this other side of the spectrum that says what people want right now, uh, coronavirus wise is being satisfied by Chris Cuomo and the nightly news and the Atlantic. And what we're supposed to do as sports people is just give people a chance to take a break from that for like an hour and a half a day. I don't think there's a wrong answer to this question. And I think a lot of us probably fit somewhere in the middle of that. You know, you're not pretending the coronavirus doesn't

exist. We're not pretending that we're not stuck at home and all that stuff. But I guess what's been interesting to me is to see where people fit on that spectrum. And, you know, a lot of it's just like, what do you feel comfortable with? What are you good at? Right. As a sports media dude or do that, you know, what do you, what do you do? Um, and, and how much, I guess just how much like, do you want to go there? But that, I mean, to me, that's what had been, I don't know that there've been a lot of huge surprises. I don't know that I've seen someone become like lean into virus talk that I wouldn't have expected before. I think people are mostly kind of complied.

I don't know how you feel about this, but they've sort of landed about where I thought they would. No, but you said something in the beginning of, of defining kind of the spectrum of it all. And if I were still doing the radio show, whatever I'm doing on the podcast, like, yes, I shouldn't. And we've done this too much because of social media, where we can start talking to a smaller audience than the actual audience that exists, which is a habit that all of us need to do a better job of breaking. But I want the show, if I were doing it, the podcast, I want that to

be the escape. Every other moment outside of the time that you're spending with me, you're probably aware of or making decisions based on the coronavirus. So why do I then need to remind you for three hours that you're with me that the coronavirus exists? The person that would go, well, now's not the time to worry about Jameis' contract because of the coronavirus. I don't even want you listening because you're never going to get anything. We're never going to talk, we're never going to hang out. Because it goes without saying that the coronavirus is a bigger deal than Jameis Winston's contract. But for me, what I'm good at would be talking about Jameis Winston's contract.

Now, when I think about the comparisons, because I think you've brought this up to 9-11, if you're on the air 9-11 in the moment, then you can't do anything on you can't be doing like Yankees bullpen or how's the rotation going to line up in the playoffs you and that's where I thought Mike and the Mad Dog kind of showed how great they can be and again this is like 20 years ago but in that moment like you have to kind of live react to it I was on Mike and Mike I did the full show the day after the Boston Marathon bombing because they just wanted me on, Hey, you know, you lived in the

area. Let's have a Boston guy on. So I did the four hours. I think it was just Greenberg and I, and that was the entire show. But this is so different because it isn't just the singular moment and then reaction to, and keeping people updated because you're alive, you're a live source of information. I have no problem with people going, hey, I'm just going to do the sports show now as we're in month two, month three of this thing to give you any kind of escape. I don't know how anybody could see that being the wrong thing or insensitive because anyone with half a brain is aware of how serious this still is. Yeah. The other thing I'd say is that in terms of sports radio, at least, so much of that was

guy talk anyway, especially locally, right? A lot of stories about my family were worked in their way before coronavirus. So those just naturally transition. What are you doing at home with your kids right now? How do you work out this? This may be a Ryan Rosillo example, but how, you know, how did your workout routine change, right? How do you, how does your life change?

Like, I think that is probably pretty safe for everybody to do. And the other thing I'd bring up, and certainly this is a ringer thing too, but it's like on sports radio, sports and pop culture have become kind of the same thing. There are a lot of wire recaps on sports radio, just like there are in the ringer podcast universe. So I think a lot of those guys that I've listened to have just sort of leaned into that a little bit more. And it's a way of sort of talking about the coronavirus, but not, you know, you're not doing Wolf Blitzer on the air, essentially. No, and you shouldn't because most of us aren't capable of pulling that off. Like that's, that's always potentially a mistake. Who do you, uh, who do you like the most nationally when it comes to radio? And I think there's another part of this question too, where people can say, well,

look at how podcasts are taking off. But I still think dismissing live daily radio will be a mistake. I almost think there'll be a correction where people go, you know what I miss is actual live reaction to things the minute they happen. As much as i should be talking up the future podcast and the money is shifted there but to just dismiss live talk live sports radio i think would be a big mistake and i think everybody does it because it lives in a different universe than sports twitter have you ever noticed that like the some of the biggest guys on radio you never see them their stuff mentioned on sports twitter unless they make like some terrible mistake or it's like, you know, back after this, right. Or something like that.

You have to screw up really bad or say like the craziest thing ever. We're like Belger in Boston said that Michael Jordan's a loser. So there you go. Boom. Boom. That's a bit right. Right. But, but then you, and I think as even as I, as a media person, I think this, I think,

oh, radio must be fading. But then you go look at the Superbowl and like,, actually, all these radio shows are just making tons of money. You know, they've had layoffs during the coronavirus like anybody else. But like a lot of these radio stations are just still killing it. You know, even as we kind of enter the podcast world nationally is a great question because there's a lot of flavors of ice cream. Right. I was actually talking to Kevin Clark about this the other day. right? I was actually talking to Kevin Clark about this the other day. I still, because of my respect for him as a media dude is Dan Patrick is one of the, just comes up because he's found this really good way. And by the way, there are some people who try to get it on this territory

too, of being like, I'm going to be big guest guy, small opinion guy. I'll come in when I need to, right. But a very sportsy guest driven kind of show that comes on for a couple hours a day. It's very Dan, right? It's very his, you know, 90s sports center persona translate to radio. I like that show a lot. Um, and I wind up, I don't know that I'm like listening live a lot, but whenever I find segments of that on Twitter, I'm sort of locked into that. What else do I mix in nationally I'll find some coward segments that I mean coward to me is like the Rush Limbaugh of sports talk and I

mean that totally politically neutrally just like I'm just going to talk for three hours and I got this no one has been less afraid of the 9 a.m. start time red light than Colin Coward not at all never no never and i'll i'll

tell you even when i thought i was like at my best and there were it's always the solo verse paired up thing um you can't be great solo unless you just do it and you know that second guy is never coming but if i didn't write out everything and rethink it and all that stuff, um, when I was solo, I would go in and just be like, ah, you know, and he doesn't care. He'd be like, whatever. I don't, I don't care. And you know, there's just comfort in doing it for that long. I think Cal would be terrible with a co-host, like a regular everyday co-host telling him, no, I disagree. I think you just, it would would be i think the look on cowherd's face when somebody would just go wait a minute what you're you're challenging my cleveland

browns thing i'm not what the hell's going on here does this guy have an id that metaphor didn't work for you about how it's like when you're in a relationship and then this happens i did that didn't land with you this is way easier when i just tease the next segment what what the hell is going on here uh you mentioned as you were a kid you know you go like look this is the guy that i'm interested in and then once you actually are doing it you've been doing it for a couple decades do you feel like you're less harsh on someone because you're you you're part of it. Or do some people feel like you're maybe internal affairs where how this guy's, this guy's covering me and critiquing me. And, you know, he essentially does the same job. I don't feel I'm less harsh. What's, what's weird

is it's just hard to be, it's hard to be friendly with people. Sometimes it's not hard for me because that's sort of my job, right. As to, is to, you know, get people to talk to you and all that kind of stuff. But, you know, when I'm walking around at the Superbowl or over drinks or something, there's always this look in somebody's eyes. Like, are you going to use this? Are you, is this, is this on the record? Right. And journalists are great people to be friends with.

So it just complicates sort of any relationship, you know, you might have, because like, I have, I have to write about this person at some point, you know, like a sports person or I'm at this, or this person may, you know, interpret this in some way that I'm not trying to give off. I'm just talking to them, you know, and maybe they think I'm using it. Maybe they think I'm doing, I don't know what it is. I don't know. So it just, it just makes it a little more complicated in that way.

But, um, but no, I don't know. You know, to me, it's like you're as internal affairs as you need to be. What's the story, right? Some stories sort of demand that. And you sort of want to know what the hell happened. Uh, what's so do you have, do you have an example though, something you were trying to track down that you knew was going to be kind of difficult and that people didn't want to share with you? Um, trying to think of a recent, a semi-recent, well, I mean, let's just think like ESPN is constantly this, right? Cause you're sort of constantly trying to figure out what's going on, uh, with like

a tricky situation. And we could name nine things. We don't have to, but we can name nine things over the years, you know, that they've, they've been on layoffs, right. That they've been involved in back a couple of years ago. Um, you know, some controversy crisis on the air where you're trying to understand their relationship with the NFL, right. Where everybody is like, Ooh, Whoa. And I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to speak out of school here because that that's like a million billion dollar problem,

right? If I say anything bad, so stuff like that, you know? Okay. So let's, let's hit on a few of those. What do you think is fair or the right way to go about it with the NFL part of it? fair or the right way to go about it with the NFL part of it. If you're ESPN. Because I see all the... No, but I see all the criticisms, right? I see the, well, you're a news organization. Like, that used to be one of my favorite things.

Like, not really. Like, some people are journalists that work there. But this isn't the J school here. It's a business. And if the business of football is good for business, then ESPN trying to be delicate about that relationship may, and probably should outweigh the rundown of a TV or radio show. You know,

like no one ever came to me and said, never criticized the NFL. That never happened. Didn't happen once, but this is the other the NFL. That never happened. It didn't happen once. But this is the other thing that I think is unfair. It's like, well, CBS doesn't have multiple channels running sports content with opinions 24 hours a day, seven days a week, either. There's soap operas during the day and game shows, so they don't have to worry about somebody on The Price is Right ripping Roger Goodell. But I found people that covered ESPN, like media coverage people, would get really high and mighty

about that relationship being blurred and be like, it's not blurred. It's clear as day. The NFL is good for business, and ESPN is going to try their best to not mess with that. You don't remember that time James Brown opened the NFL today by ripping Roger Goodell for like 20 straight minutes, glancing over a boomer who was just kind of looking at the desk. And, you know, no, I was like, wait a minute. No, I definitely don't remember that. Kurt is being serious here. Yeah. So I would I would only push back on one part of that, which I don't push back as much as you want, because there's people that think like, no, you're wrong.

Like, that's not the way it should work as a business decision. It's obvious what they're doing. But I don't think, you know, if we had ESPN executives right here right now, would they say, you know, actually we've given several inches on journalism with the NFL. They would not admit that. In fact, they would not say that. And there are several journalists at ESPN who would not say, you know what, I'm a compromised NFL journalist, but I'm choosing to ride with it because it's a nice salary and I love my job at ESPN who would not say, you know what? I'm a compromised NFL journalist,

but I'm choosing to ride with it because it's a nice salary and I love my job at ESPN. So they're actually not saying that. So as long as, until they actually say that, I think poking at that sort of weird place where journalism and business meet and one wins out on one day and one wins out on the other day when Van Nod and Wickersham have this huge investigation that pulls Roger Goodell's pants down, which they do, by the way, pretty regularly. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And I think that's like an eternally interesting topic, right? The other part of this is that ESPN doesn't have to do journalism, right? It's not the New York Times. There's nothing in their charter. It's

because John Walsh and Skipper and those guys were more interested in that, I think, than another TV executive might have been. So they kind of pushed ESPN in that direction. They thought it gave them credibility. It did, certainly, and does. But to me, until there's somebody that says exactly what you said, this is good business. So we're going to go two feet, but we're not going to go 10 feet on the story, or we're going to do it for a day, but we're not going to do it for a week because we think that would maybe make

somebody on park Avenue mad. I think it's a totally legitimate topic. So like if I were, if I were in charge of that kind of stuff and I never had any aspirations to ever be like behind the scenes and these things you hear about and you go, my god you know it's it's endlessly fascinating when somebody would open up to you and every now and then somebody would pull you aside and be like hey i just want you to understand how this works so that you don't sound like a completely uninformed moron on the air for the rest of the week right and you're like hey i appreciate that um what what needs to have with play like place like espn it's just tough to compare anything to espn because it's just so massive and it has its arms and so many different things but you have to go look we're going to pay you a ton of money for the nfl on monday night football

and when somebody on a debate desk the next day rips something like that's that's separate that those those aren't the same things like that that really now i know the nfl is going to push back we're like hey we don't like the thing that happened at the debate desk and then i always felt like especially with baseball when bud selig was so out of control with how mad and how sensitive he would get about everything like the stuff selig would do where he would call and complain about people constantly it's, aren't you the commissioner of baseball? Do something else. Don't you have stuff to do today? And he would make ESPN punish people.

And I think, wouldn't somebody at ESPN just go, hey, who else is going to pay you this much for Sunday night baseball? No one? No one? Is no one the answer? Because just relax if a podcaster made a joke about a statue, which is exactly what happened. A podcaster made a joke about a statue which is exactly what

happened a podcaster made a joke about a sea league statue which would be a target for pigeons from forever or something like that and then the guy got suspended and it's like geez for a throwaway line like that so i guess going back to the point that i i try to make here curtis is that if i'm a consumer i know certain people aren't journalists there. So I don't like whenever anybody would say to me like, Oh, you call it the D league. It's the G league. Surprised a journalist would get that wrong. Well, first of all, if you're mad about the G or D league, then, then you're, you're a special breed to begin with, but I'm not, I'm trying to get things right. I'm trying to give you good information if I have information, cause that's a little different with

talk show hosts. But it's up to you kind of how you consume me. And I think those decisions are really easy to make. So if you're an executive at ESPN and you're going, we want to make sure that NFL relationship is really good. It's not a matter of, I want your show to say this. I don't want your show to say this. I guess I just feel like the job can be done without feeling like your journalistic integrity is being infringed upon.

Yeah, well, there's a lot of good journalists there, right? Which sort of proves the point to an extent. And there are people there whose job, as you say, is radically different from other people's jobs. I just say this. I think a GSPN gets a lot of their credibility because of their journalism, right? People are tuning in there to get news, to get stuff that they think is, you know, not doesn't the NFL doesn't have its thumb on the scale. So as long as that is ESPN is drawing from that, which is I think fundamentally different than like CBS sports or NBC sports, as you pointed

out, like the question of, is this journalism, is this journalism full stop? It's, it's an interesting question. You know, it really is to me anyway. full stop? It's, it's an interesting question. You know, it really is to me anyway. And I don't know, you know, my expectations for them, I wouldn't treat it like the New York times because it's not the New York times, right. Or some newspaper or something like that, because it is a, it is a financial relationship, but I don't know, to me, to me, it's eternally fascinating because it, because it changes all the time too. Right. Sean, Sean McDonough, this is stated, this is not a secret, right? Part of the reason they took him off Monday Night Football

or one of the reasons they said afterwards was, you know, he was kind of critical of the refs a lot. Guess what's happened? Sean McDonough's gone over to college football. I love Sean McDonough, by the way. Sean McDonough goes to college football. Do you know what he does? He just kills the refs all the time.

It's okay over there, but we can't do it on the NFL. Okay, well, I mean, anybody that grew up with Sean McDonough like I did with Boston and you know he's he's as talented a play-by-play guys I think there is in the business but that was Sean's thing and Sean Sean was incredibly good but also gave you just enough of a homerism thing on the Red Sox call that you were like all right this guy's one of us of course he's he's one of us as a Red Sox fan, his father and the whole boss. I mean, look, it's, it's the McDonough family's a big deal in Boston, but you know, third inning, somebody would, would miss a call and you know, he, he'd just be like, well, Tim Sheeta, you know, his day wasn't a great start in the first inning and

Jimmy Williams is irate now and I don't blame him because I don't know what game he's calling so you know it kind of plays a little bit on Nesson and then he was doing the Friday night thing and then when I would hear him doing it and I hear him doing it on on college football games I do cringe a little because I you're right. Because I go, oh man. Now he'd have to deal with the conference commissioners, but the NFL part, like even when I did fill in NBA broadcast, I did three. I did two color and one play-by-play for radio for the Celtics. I had to fill out an NBA approval thing and they had to approve me. Like the league has to approve you. And now as everyone's circling around this Monday night football booth and trying to figure out who's going to be in it i'm finding it really interesting to see who's

kissing the nfl's ass on social media because they want the gig because they know they have to get the nfl to sign off on it to be in that booth i mean the same thing happened with i think uh was it stan van gundy in the nba because stern was like, no. So it's a, it's a really, like, it's that thing that happens underneath where you go, wait, that happens. You go, yeah, like the TV people. And it isn't just ESPN. These business partners are so massive. Like, as I mentioned, the pushback on baseball, it actually doesn't happen because the fear is more that I don't know the baseball one. I never quite understood, but with football, the fear is like, what if we end up not having football? And then you can't use the baseball one. I never quite understood, but with football, the fear is like, what if we end up not having football?

And then you can't use the highlights, which everybody always mistakes, which is another big part of the entire package is that you buy it. Right. So you can also run the highlights on your sports center and every other show that's running highlights. So circle back to your point. I think most of this reveals just how ridiculously sensitive the leagues

are. And by the way, even the NFL and forget Bud Seelig, like who cares if somebody is lighting you up on a talk show, who cares if Sean McDonough said the ref was bad and it was a call that was obviously because, because ESPN is investing so much money in this, we can see from 19 angles was wrong. Who cares, right? Like at some, like at some point are people not watching Monday night football because they think the refs are bad. Is that the reason, you know, is that going to be part of the, I don't think if you, if that was the standard, you'd think on a Twitter Sunday that no one wanted to watch the games.

Exactly. By the way, my favorite McDonough moment, as long as we're comparing them, can I do this? Yeah. Sugar bowl two years ago, refs get the call wrong, announce it wrong, get it wrong again, then re huddle and come out to speak for a third time. And McDonough just goes, please stop talking on the broadcast. Uh, you know, Mike Tirico, who I've always said, if he did the full blown Mike Tirico radio show,

I think he'd be as good as anybody in the country but it's just different if you're also doing the talk show and you're part of Monday Night Football and that's a tough spot to be in it's a really tough spot to be in to be one of the voices of the shield here essentially and one of their biggest products but then also opinionated enough five days a week knowing they're going to be moments where you have to get, get critical of it. And I'm not saying like Mike can get critical, but there's, I just, I guess there's a part of me that, you know, I'm not saying I'm best friends with Tariqo, but I feel like I've had enough conversations with him where if he ever just said, Hey,

I'm just going to do the full open Mike Tariqo deal. He would be incredible, like incredible. And I know he had it for a little while, but he was also all over the place. You know, back when Tariqo did his radio show, I, I, you know, one of the things they were doing with, uh, with Scott and I in the beginning, cause they did it with Mike and Scott a lot. And it was one of the reasons when Will and I were going to do it, Will Kane and I were going to do it together. And then when I had heard, cause no one told me and Will's like, Hey, I'm going to be in New York for a lot of these shows. And I went, so we're starting a radio show every day. We're going to be in separate locations.

I'm like, all right, I've already done it. And it's just, you can maybe do it after you've done it in the same room for a few years and built up those patterns and understanding the other guy's delivery. But yeah, if Tariqo just said, hey, I'm just doing radio and I'm in studio with somebody else, I think it'd be incredible. By the way, I've loved listening to local sports radio during the work apart phase of the coronavirus to hear how these teams, because there's so much of it. You know how TVs kind of become junkie and lo-fi radio. Now it's like, it comes back. Was there a liner there? Was he, are we, what are we doing here?

Are we doing the chicken strips ad? Like now we just, all it is is just talking out loud to your producer and hoping for guidance. They don't get edited like we do, you know. No, I was always a big fan of the hand signals and everything. More with Curtis, including the first time he met Skip Bayless, his hero. Upgrade your home, style, grooming routine, and more with a monthly box of awesome from Bespoke Post.

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business community during the coronavirus crisis by buying $10 million worth of goods from emerging brands and small manufacturers. So if you know any small brands looking for a boost right now, definitely give them a shout. Was there anybody that you wrote about or that you were covering that seemed to not only not want to do the interview with you, but was furious after you did the piece. Um, that's a good one. There's not too many that have not wanted to do it, you know, or, or at least have not admitted they wanted to do it.

Um, that's a really good qualify. Yeah. I mean, you know, you know that, you know, that's part of it, right? You don't want it. It's so funny to be like, I can't let you know how bad I want you to interview me. You don't want to talk to Curtis, but when, and maybe it takes a really long time to get them on the phone, but when you do get them on the phone, oh, happy to do it. Happy to do it. Were you really happy to do it? Is that why this is four and a half weeks after I started asking

and the publicist told me no, like three times or told me they couldn't get you, you know, that one, you know? Yeah. Um, I'm trying to remember the roll call of my, especially the early days, you know, I had a, I had a, I had a tough piece about Bob Costas early on and be honest, tough piece, uh, as they say. And, uh, you know, that was, give us a little, to share a little bit more on that. He was doing the, uh, he was doing the Olympics. It was when Bob was, I thought, in his phase where he was talking about end zone dancing a lot and stuff like that. I didn't love that phase.

It's like, oh, what are these players today doing the end zone dances? Can't they flip the ball to the ref? I wrote a column in the New York Times. He was also doing the Olympic stuff. Was that the Pink Eye Olympics? That was before that. this is early this is early on i think it was around the will leach time when he had the will leach thing so that was a yeah that was a that was not what was the will

leach thing who was a deadspin yeah he he had will leach on to talk about the evils of the internet if you remember that he had the bobcats i believe it was on his hbo show and buzz bisinger was on there this was like wait was that the joe buck thing though or was no no you're remembering different train wrecks here yeah oh yeah joe buck was the one with arty lang yeah that's right it was like buzz bisinger didn't understand how the internet worked he thought the comment section was like part of the piece and will leach is like are you guys serious have you guys never been on the internet before? I'm sorry. Yeah, that's right.

That was a disaster. I mean, knowing that being in the media, we all couldn't deadspin there because of what it was about early on. But then there were definitely media members that would call deadspin so that they were like, make sure I never get in trouble or anything like that. And Will, I remember you're right. That was Buzz Bissinger reading. or anything like that and uh will i remember you're right that was buzz messenger reading that he was reading comments on a piece like post after and he didn't he was losing he's like this

is the worst and leach is like what that's not my byline that's that's balls deep oh four you know yeah if i'm if my memory serves like messenger had the comments on a printed page that's right that's right it's kind of pre-iphone. That was the whole thing. I mean, you know, another one is the Oklahoma city thing. You know, I think I did a Grantland. I mean, I did not hear back from them directly, but I think it was a basically 110% chance that the Oklahoma city Thunder were not happy that I had written about their media relations, uh, thing, you know, which was freezing out writers and, and, and generally doing their best to keep writers as far apart from the players as

it seemed like it was humanly possible. Wasn't that the Westbrook stuff? Yeah, it was Westbrook. KD was still there for part of that. Yeah, but that was always the thing. Westbrook was so in control of everything that was going on down there that it was just sort of accepted. Yeah. Oh, and it was

the tone of the locker room, right was it was the tone of the locker room right it was the tone of the thing and then kd went to to the warriors and for a while he was really available remember that yeah he was like he was like oh yeah what do you want to talk about i'm in oh we can do interviews now okay i'm in yeah i guess that was one of them so i feel like i cut you off on the costas thing but um did he like reach out well i mean i i just say i just say this i just say it was he was it was it was not it was he it was not well received i remember i remember got an angry letter from hbo about it you know and he was on hbo at the time and yeah that's that happens you know whatever is there ever a time where they're like hey they were right

are you still that 20 year old punk These are TV people we're talking about, right? You know, you made a good point when you wrote that column about me. No, I don't think that's ever happened. That's ever. I think it happens. But that's probably not unique to them, right? If you get ripped on Twitter, you're not like, you know what? You made a good point.

I've decided to change part of my show because you just killed me. But you might do it anyway, right? You might just not admit it. I did it once. Somebody wrote something about me and it was just totally factually wrong. And I sent a note to the person.

I was like, are you serious, man? Like you did it this way. This is the way you did it. You don't even have the timeline right. There's facts I could tell you. You're not going to believe me. But I'll even share something with you that I'm not supposed to. And I got the biggest form.

Even though it was written to me specifically, it was the most form thing ever where it was, you should just learn to appreciate your success more and i went oh and then i immediately regretted i go i'm never doing that again never doing it again because the person didn't it didn't matter what i had said they'd already written what they had written about me and it like it's just like i was like hey you're wrong they're thinking now this guy's making excuses like yeah and they and they won because they got a response from you right is that how you felt when you got a response no but i but i think there's a certain there's a certain part of humanity that just wants you to respond like i got his attention right even if they're totally wrong and we got i gotten that you know oh yeah you're somebody's got a thin skin no i, I'm just trying to correct it.

That sucks. I'm just trying to correct it. Whenever you respond, be like, sensitive much? Do you have any thoughts now that we're two months into this? I've never been doomsday about this whole thing. Even though I know Fauci's like everybody's hero, I feel like he's constantly banging the drum on this message of the worst-case scenarios all the time. But that might be just him being precautionary and more on the safety side of

things so i'm open to that part of it but as far as programming like do you get a sense have you talked to anybody about what kind of impact and maybe lasting changes that we would have from this or if we even know you know two months in terms of the media yeah i think it's going to be smaller i mean i think that's that's number one, by the way. And I would put that from your biggest TV network down to your smallest local newspaper that's kind of hanging on for dear life. Like, I'm one of these people who thinks all the downsizing that's happening during this thing, layoffs, furloughs, pay cuts, the idea that that's all just going to bounce back to a hundred percent when we're done with this recession, when we're done with the Corona virus at whatever point in the future, that that's a little rosy to me. And that's not saying that, you know, we're not going to have

sports writers and podcasts and all that stuff. But I just think a lot of these changes are basically going to kind of be permanent. You know, the sports staff that had 12 people, they've downsized to eight during coronavirus. Is that, is that really going to bounce back to 12 next year? I don't think so. I don't think so at all. So I think that's one thing. I think the other thing that's interesting about this is just sports TV.

Sports TV is one of the last things on television that still just gets millions of dollars pumped into it. The debate shows are pretty basic, right? But look at like Sunday night football. I mean, that, that show just look or the Fox game of the week, right? Like those shows just look amazing. You know, there's tons of money in that. Now there's two arguments. One is that there is going to be this post virus reality where like, do we need to spend that much money? Do we really need to make those shows look as good as they do after we've been having people sitting here looking at each other? Like you and I are looking at each other on zoom right now for like months, or I guess maybe the other argument is we're going to be so desperate network wise to have

football back because football is already like 90 of tv networks at this point and that we're just going to lean into that and it's going to look even better than ever we're going to make it look better i don't know but that that's an interesting question to me i worry about the industry for the numbers and what i mean by the numbers like whenever i i don't do that often, but I speak to like classes or something. And, you know, you've got all of these kids, thousands and thousands of kids graduating every year from all these, you know, whether it's communications degrees, journalism schools, going to Newhouse, going to Missouri, going to Columbia. I'm leaving out a million of them. USC. Because I remember having my grad application at Newhouse School filled out and was actually waiting to have enough in the checking account to cover the application fee as I was sending it off. I had my undergraduate from Vermont and I was ready to go, all right, well, if I need to do this and I need to do it really i guess i gotta go back to school because vermont didn't have any communications degree at all like i was

political science and english so when i was talking to schools years ago i would say you know the numbers just don't add up and i know that sucks to hear but the numbers don't add up if you think about just talk radio how many great jobs are there in the country are there a hundred like a hundred might be high now podcasting makes you think you have a path that wasn't available but it doesn't mean just because you have the opportunity to do it anyone's going to listen to the thing and then when you think of anchors like those guys on average last 35 years at a major market you know and you can talk about the teams, but then the number of the supply of people to be on the air versus actual available jobs, the math was never very

good. And now it scares the hell out of me for somebody that really wants to pursue this. And you're right. Like, I don't know that it just all bounces back up, but what'll happen is the same thing in any company that isn't even related to broadcasting. Like, Hey, we had all this money. We were flush with investors.

Now that money's gone and we're starting to realize, Hey, you know what? Actually we need to turn a profit now. Like we thought we were fine because we had all this cash and investors and seed money, but now they're saying we're out. So now we actually have to turn a profit instead of being projected

evaluation. And I think that's going to happen too. And we're seeing it already with some of the writers where you go, I don't, I don't know if any of this stuff was going to work out, but now everybody's being forced to kind of make decisions. They hope they only had to make in like three or four years. Absolutely. And, and by the way, it's even more subtle than just numbers, right?

You remember, cause you and I both had them, those starting jobs in media where it was kind of barely a living wage i'm gonna guess that's gonna be now just like slightly below a living wage volunteer yeah mine was below mine was below the first three or four so mine was mine was way below i was in the i'm gonna pay one bill a month and it's gonna be a different bill each month this month this month cable this month you know and you kind of just spread out keep everybody on the leash a little bit you know if you didn't have a bad credit score in your 20s i don't even know if you got into broadcasting really you know no no it was it was not a thing but but i just think now that's going to be like worse in some little way right which sucks if you're getting into it

you know if it's three thousand dollars worse five thousand dollars we're gonna have to talk about huge things here right that makes a lot of're getting into it. If it's $3,000 worse, $5,000, we're going to have to talk about huge things here, right? That makes a lot of difference. And maybe it makes a difference if you're like, I'm going to hang in and do five years in this and see if I become big time, or am I just going to go be an accountant, right? Or just go do something else and just kind of drop out and maybe do my sports blog on the side and tweet a lot right and not be a media member a quote-unquote like that that's a big deal to people and it was not exactly rosy before this and it's only going to get worse right at least in the near term and man that sucks yeah the reason those entry-level jobs are as bad as they are is because they could they know they could get people to take them for it totally that's that's kind of the whole point like how bad

do you want to do this that's like anything anything that's really special uh the beginning part of it usually is is almost impossible and it'll want you to quit it's not saying hey everybody that wants to get into broadcasting make sure you get out of it i mean because there's something great too about following your dreams and it's still going to happen. Like there's people right now, they're going to graduate from school. They're going to have amazing careers, but the math, the math was always bad before. And now I feel like it's, it's way worse. Did you have a Pete Carroll speech that you gave to a young person who would come and sell you like, I want to be the next Ryan Rosillo? Did you have one of those? I've done a couple speeches to teams.

Yeah, not even at a podium. Just like they come to you. Hey, Ryan, I'd love to be in the business. Encourage me. Tell me I can do this. I've tried a few times. And every time I've done that, it turns into you just want a job. They think that because they met me and I took a 1% interest in them,

they think I'm just going to be able to call ESPN and be like, hey, this guy's got his shit together. Why don't we get him on the air? You're powerful. So you get the – I still get the just like, should I be a sports writer guy, right? Do you answer all of them? I try to.

I try to because I remember. don't know did you have the did you have the as a kid did you do that to people did you bug people i did it not as a kid kid i did it as a 25 26 year old where i wrote letters to every every team um but yeah if you just dm me and say hey can i have a job i mean it's just well that that's a little direct i think but i i do remember as a kid bugging people you know what would you do what's the first one that jumps out you know who was skid bayless then a dallas radio host and columnist right uh and i'd go to his remotes with my mom. Cause I couldn't drive and I'd be, and I have a picture of this, which I'll send you after we get off here, but I would wait for him to go to commercial.

And then I'd kind of, you know, sheepishly walk up. Hey, Hey, skip. Hi. I just love to, I'd love to be a sports writer, you know, too. When I grew up, do you have any advice? Do you, what should I major in? And you know what? He was great.

He was great. And I remember that, right? I'll never forget that. And you know what, did that, did that help me get a job? No. Did that help me, you know, do, do, you know, something or whatever, but he could have been, he could have blown me off. And again, we're talking like two and a half minute intervals, right? Before skip had to get back on and read the uh you know the car lease ad for for the radio station but he was great that's funny when i lived in the same hotel with skip we got along great we would i'd be like wow i really like this guy he's really smart i mean there's there's no debating that but um he thought i said something about him that i didn't say and then everybody came after me kind of internally about it. And I got really pissed and was like, hey, that's not what happened.

They were like, well, you need to apologize. I was like, why would I ever apologize for something I didn't even do? And it's super easy to figure out that I didn't do it. So they went back and listened to every single NBA podcast I did where I supposedly had said that, well, you know what? I'll just share with you. I did this thing where I was like, hey, everybody, all the fans that you get really upset about, understand you watch your team way more than any of us watch your team. Okay. Except for like the select team that I'll watch or the one

or two that I always want to watch all the time for the most part. And I'm a guy that watches all the time. So I'm going to tell you, I know that I've been here a bunch of years. Most of the guys that I work with that are on the air, they're not grinding out, grinding away, watching games. So if they say something, I know it's going to upset you, but understand that they haven't watched as much as you do. So why do you care? I go, I think I had said when Skip's Bayless says he's watched every single Chris Paul game, including every game at wake of his entire career. Like, it's just a dumb thing to say. Cause it's not necessarily true. Even though I know Skip, uh, Skip watches a lot. And then it turned into some guy posted a blog about how I said Skip doesn't watch any games.

And that's not what I said. So then ESPN was like, okay, go back. And they made the podcast producer for me listen to like every pod I had done for a month start to finish. And they're like, it's painful. I don't want to ever have to do that. Yeah.

I mean, he already heard him the first time. And I was like look i didn't say it the way it came out in this thing like why won't you believe me and they're like nope and then they're like okay well we couldn't find it i'm like because i didn't say it that way that was my fucking point they're like well you should still apologize to him you're never going to be on first take again i was like no i'm not apologizing and my agent was like you should apologize i go fuck that i'm not apologizing i didn't fucking do anything and that was it but see this is like a guys with jobs problem right oh yeah we're talking about like 14 year old who who's got

stars in his eyes problem here i see what i was i was trying to do was reinforce you liking skip because i had a stretch where i really liked him like we would talk college ball we would talk we'd be at the hotel and we'd run into each other like how's it going you know yeah and i'd be watching his high rep routine but after that i was like no i'm out done i've talked to guys who did not in in young sports writers who did not have that good of an experience with the you know they want all they wanted was that sports writer who'd made it to look at them and go, I got, I got a minute for you. I'm going to treat you like a real person. And I want to take you seriously. Maybe you'll never do this, right? Most likely, you're not going to do this because who's going to do, you know, how many of us are really going

to go all the way. Right. But they didn't get that just nice scratch behind the ears and they never forgot it. Right. They never, ever forgot it. So I don't want to, I don't want to be that guy. Like I don't want to have somebody nursing a grudge against me for the next like 10 years because, Oh, you know, Curtis, I, I, I, I hit him up on LinkedIn and I never heard back, you know, cause he thought I was a marketing him something, you know, no, I want to, I want to try at least. Well, that sounds like an invitation. He's at Brian Curtis.

That's B-R-Y-A-N. Make sure you check out. Only serious candidates. At the Press Box Pod. And you can see all of his work up on the ringer. Let's do this again, Brian. I know we'd always kind of talked about it. Maybe after some normalcy here but I

hope you had fun man absolutely thanks man okay that's it have a good weekend we'll be checking in Sunday night after the Jordan doc and man that Rodman stuff really made the rounds where I said Rodman was boring and then Bill had mentioned something about it too and then

I don't know maybe we'll do it on the Bill thing but also it's worth checking out too with all the breaking news that came out, uh, days later, but Bill and I talked about the Orlando thing. And I just, I think it's almost worth, if I'm going to go do all that stuff, it's because I've talked to somebody and talk to multiple people, multiple somebodies to go, Hey, these are kind of some of the things that are kicking around. These, these are not guesses folks. So just a little reminder for you on a Sunday night. Have a great time. Thank you.