The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Magic Tweets After Lakers Loss; Now Vogel Out? Plus, the Origin of Wu-Tang With S.H. Fernando Jr.

Episode Date: January 19, 2022

Russillo shares his thoughts on the rumors that Lakers head coach Frank Vogel is close to being fired (0:34) before talking with journalist S.H. Fernando Jr. about his book, 'From the Streets of Shaolin: The Wu-Tang Saga.' They discuss the inception of Hip-hop in the Bronx, NY, the formation of the Wu-Tang Clan and their explosion onto the music scene, stories from covering the group, their impact on hip-hop, and more (10:44). Finally Ryen answers some listener-submitted Life Advice questions (1:17:13)  Host: Ryen Russillo Guest: S.H. Fernando Jr. Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

got maybe five parts of the day's podcast life advice going to tool last night recap also what's going on frank vogel and the lakers but more importantly sh fernando jr his book from the streets of shaolin it's the history of Wu-Tang. It's also really the history of how hip-hop took over the Bronx and how it spread through the boroughs. This is an incredible book, one of the best books I've read. We got to spend an hour with the guy, so enjoy. I want to talk about this Frank Vogel situation because the rumor that he's going to lose his gig because anything other than what's happened with the team, as if it's up to him, is laughable. And that's what I said yesterday on Twitter.

Now, there was a report from The Athletic that talked about his departure being imminent, essentially, and then an LA Times article backed that up with a source saying, quote, a bad loss to Utah might have been the final straw, essentially. So we're looking at a Monday night outcome against the Utah Jazz where it's arguably the Lakers' best win of the season. Does that somehow save Vogel's job? Well, that feels a very temporary solution because if you're already having sources again the source

could be wrong but it was multiple places people that are a little more plugged in to the Lakers day-to-day part of it that you know maybe Vogel is you know another bad week and the guy is done that's kind of the way it feels right now that feels like the safer part of this and we can also point to the contract where when you get a one-year tacked on extension after you won an NBA championship, that means the team probably isn't super fired up about you long-term. And then on top of that, inside

of industry circles, outside of it, anybody with a brain that's been watching the NBA, when Fizdale's added the staff late, you're like, okay, here we go. I mean, the extension tells us everything we need to know and so the lakers are as we sit today 22 and 22 they're an eighth seed behind minnesota they lose the tie breaker to them and my biggest point is even an average anthony davis all right not this version

that's arguably this season the worst season we've ever had of him in his entire career and whatever you think of him when he's healthy he's really good um and he hasn't been good this year for whatever reason. And I don't know if it's because he got bigger because he got sick of being called soft and a million different things. But Anthony Davis, four more wins. Is that delusional for me to suggest? A better Anthony Davis gets you four wins and that would be probably a five seed, which I know is not what the Lakers are about. But the reason this whole thing got combustible in the last couple days is because of a very predictable move. Lakers suck. They get smacked. They're giving up

points to all these bad teams. They get destroyed by Denver this weekend. And Magic Johnson tweets out something that's very Magic Johnson. And we'll read that tweet for you. After being blown out by the Nuggets, 133-96, we as at Lakers fans

can accept being outplayed, but we deserve more than a lack of effort and no sense of urgency. Owner at GenieBus, you deserve better. All right, this is one of my favorite things, and it's not even about Magic Johnson. It's my favorite chemistry of content that happens where it's bad thing happens,

person with some following goes you know this bad thing is bad i'm gonna tweet that it's bad applause i don't get it uh magic even shut down the comments on this one which was an impressive move uh in general on this but i i can see it all the time you know it different topics. Sometimes they're worldly topics, and I'll see people with huge followings, and they're like, this thing that is bad is bad. And then it's like 10,000 likes, and it's just magic, content.

So then LeBron James is like, wait, I can't have magic send out a tweet that this is unacceptable. I, too, have to let everybody know. So 21 hours later, LeBron James is like, wait, I can't have Magic send out a tweet that this is unacceptable. I, too, have to let everybody know. So 21 hours later, LeBron James tweets out, hashtag Laker Nation. I apologize, and I promise we'll be better. Well, they have been. 1-0.

1-0 since. So you have the Magic part of this where his connection to Lakers, which may be as strong as any one player at any NBA franchise in history. And by the way, as a player, I love Magic. I actually think he's a little underrated. His connection to the Lakers, which may be as strong as any one player at any NBA franchise in history. And by the way, as a player, I love Magic. I actually think he's a little underrated. Nine finals, I think, in 12 years during his main years. That's an incredible stretch.

And he's going up against one of the all-time franchises, their peak with the Celtics in the 80s. So who knows what kind of numbers Magic may have had, again, avoiding one of the all-time greats in that collection of what the Celtics are doing in the 80s. So anyway, the point is, I get why Magic does it, but I also think it's pointless and he can't help himself. And LeBron, who does

have a tendency to, as things are going bad, kind of separating himself, almost like the defensive assignment that's screwed up, and then he looks at the guy in the baseline with his hands out. LeBron, there's almost this protective instinct that he has, because if this thing were to get worse and worse,

you'll just see LeBron may not sit with everybody in one moment to kind of prove some point. I was reading LeBron's quotes about Vogel's future, and it was very specific in that it was never a, hey, I've got Frank, and Frank's got me, and we're all in this together. It was like, hey, Frank doesn't care about that. We know who he is. He knows who we are. So there's never going to in this together. It was like, hey, Frank doesn't care about that. We know who he is. He knows who we are.

So there's never going to be this 100% full endorsement because, again, I think people are looking at Fisdale going, is this guy actually going to take over? When Frank Vogel was in the health and protocol situation at the end of December, I thought it was really interesting when Fisdale filled in as the head coach. They had that win against Houston. Fisdale was talking about LeBron playing center.

Granted, the Rockets couldn't understand a back cut for like 30 minutes in that game. You would have thought it was Will Chamberlain scoring 100 points. And I'll admit that my sensors kind of went up, and I was like, ooh, wait. Is he praising LeBron a little bit more than you normally would knowing that he'd be in line if Olga were up? So we have all of that out there.

But let's get back to what this really is. It's a fucked up roster. Of all the things I get right and all the things I get wrong, one of the things I absolutely nailed before the season started, once they got done signing all of these players with real resumes in this league, despite their age, real resumes. Guys that when they look in the mirror, they don't think, you think DeAndre Jordan thinks he's done as a basketball player?

Of course not. You think Rondo thinks he's done? I count 14 players that would have thought they would be in the rotation. And that includes Kendrick Nunn, who hasn't played. That's impossible. The first time I started talking to anybody in front offices, 2003, I remember talking with an NBA GM, and I was just asking about roster structure.

And he said one of the smartest things, and it's held up. This is indebatable. He's like, look, you got your eight guys you're going to play normally in a rotation. You got nine and 10 who could play depending on the matchup foul trouble, or you're changing things up a little bit. But after 10, guy 11, 12, 13, 14, maybe even 15, they kind of have to know who they are. It can't be young, unproven guy who's desperate for his next contract. It has to be young and unproven guy that's just fired up to get gear from an NBA team,

a veteran who knows he's never playing and his career's over. You can't have 14 people that are all wondering where their minutes are and all wondering where their next money is coming from. All right. And so when they put the roster together, even though I was like, okay, I guess they're trying to get flexible. They're trying to do different things with bigs when the rest of the league is going small, but it still doesn't make a ton, I guess they're trying to get flexible. They're trying to do different things with bigs when the rest of the league is going small. But it still doesn't make a ton of sense how they're going to do this. So I thought, you know what? I bet the first couple months, even if everybody had been healthy,

and even if Westbrook wasn't a total disaster, if there was some slightly better version of Westbrook, that it would still take him a couple months before he'd decide, hey, I'm sorry, vet with all these accolades. You're going to be losing minutes to Austin Reeves because he can shoot and he can defend. You know, Avery Bradley is going to be really important in certain defensive matchups,

so he's going to be ahead of some of the other guys. Hey, Mello, you've been really good at knocking down threes. There's going to be some defensive matchups. Maybe we can't handle having you out there against another young wing. All right? So I thought these things would happen. Instead, it's been a disaster beyond that. And two of the biggest reasons are one, Anthony Davis not being healthy. And when he actually did play was terrible. And then the other part of it is Russell Westbrook, who, again, I don't even know who's left on this part of it because off the ball, nobody respects him from the other team. He doesn't cut, doesn't set screens. when he actually is with the basketball.

You never know what the hell is going to happen. And the last time he was really consistently crushing it, it has to be him in control of everything. That's just never going to happen in this setup. And it was really interesting in that Utah game, right? Because Utah's up late, and Utah's kind of going through their own little weird stretch. And again, they've had kind of missing pieces along the way.

But Utah is blowing the lead. The Lakers come all the way back. 10-day Stanley Johnson is crushing. And Westbrook's still not back in the game. And he hadn't met in the game for a long time. And I'm like, man, is Frank going to keep him off the floor? Is he not going to bring him back? Because the right basketball move would have been to not bring Westbrook back in that game. All right. Based on the way he's played this year and the way that specific game was playing out. And he kind of brought him back in like after play because it felt like Vogel was trying to cheat to get however many extra seconds of non-Westbrook basketball, knowing that because of Westbrook's stature and still what his standing is in this league and both with this team. He's like, I still have to kind of bring him back. And when I said you still have to bring him back and people pushing back, you don't understand. Let me introduce you to a few entry level NBA podcasts, because if you can't understand

why Westbrook has to come back in the game at that point, even if it's the wrong basketball move, then you don't understand how the NBA infrastructure works. But he's still trying to get away with all these minutes. Now, Westbrook came in. The Lakers won the game because Avery Bradley hit a big three. Stanley Johnson had a nice play. Westbrook actually brought the ball up with under a minute left, a game clock up two possessions. And he decided to go coast to coast. He got the and one of the layup flex winner. It was completely the wrong move. Even the Lakers announcer was like, no, what are you doing? And yet in that

moment, Vogel's probably thinking, do I try to save my job and not bring him back in? And then he's like, wait, do I lose my job? Because if I don't bring him back in, then guys are gonna be mad at me for not bringing him back in. Even if that night it was the wrong basketball point. So when you add all of this up together, it doesn't seem like Vogel has a great chance of retaining his job unless we think some super unpredictable Lakers run is coming that doesn't seem to make a ton of sense. The problem is, if you're Vogel and you're the head coach of the Lakers, this isn't even about Vogel. If you're the head coach of the Lakers and things aren't going right, you know it's going bad.

Everyone around you knows it. You know it's going bad better than any single person because you're in charge of the team. But again, the problem is that you're one Magic Johnson tweet away from millions being like, oh, that's right, the bad thing is going bad, and you're going to end up out of a job.

The Streets of Shaolin. The Wu-Tang Saga. It's one of the best books that I've read in last year. The author is S.H. Fernando Jr. And we're going to spend an hour talking with him. All right, Skiz, thanks for doing this with us today. Respect. Pleasure to be here. All right. So let's, my favorite part of this book is that you go, because the Wu-Tang is impossible, right? It's impossible. We're going to get to that later. What they accomplished, what they did, their approach,

the originality, the influences, and all these things. And what you do through the first hundred or so pages is you lay this foundation of understanding who they are, right? And that's what's so brilliant about the book. So let's start with the early 70s. We're in the Bronx. We've got this Jamaican DJ kind of MC, but we're not sure what to even call it.

You know, historians will look at it as kind of the timeline of the birth of hip hop. But DJ Kool Herc and what he did, what this movement and how it started. Let's start there. Well, you know, that's to me, the birth story of hip hop always blows my mind. Because, you know, it came from such humble beginnings. And you look where it is now.

It's like a pop culture behemoth. You know, it's just like it's taken over the world. I'm in Sri Lanka right now. And people, you know, I see like it's taken over the world i'm in sri lanka right now and people you know i see wu-tang symbols here i mean it's just it's just amazing that the the reach of hip-hop you know from from coming from this small impoverished section of the bronx and then how it was able to proliferate and just, you know, bring everyone in. And it's like, you know, now it's like everyone, you don't have to be from a certain place to be hip hop.

Everyone is kind of a participant of this culture, you know? So that's what, so that's why I wanted to kind of lay the foundation and show kind of hip hop's humble beginnings and also kind of establish the Wu Tang's connection to that original old school era. Because the connection is definitely there, you know. And hip hop is all, it's about adding on, you know. Different eras of hip hop, obviously now we're approaching almost like 50 years of hip-hop that's that's crazy you know that this that this music has become

such a cultural movement and every generation kind of adds their own kind of interpretation and you know brings a lot to the table so you know a lot of people wonder why i start out the first chapter without not even kind of talking about wu-tang but you got to understand the foundation of hip-hop to really understand where wu-tang is coming from because they represent that they represent the next part of the next extension of that foundation. And that's really what it was. It was learning how to take breaks and extending them. And then all of a sudden, like the rhyming part wasn't even really the purpose, right? It was more of, all right, while I'm doing some stuff, like I'll just kind of talk a little bit and have some

chance. And then that evolves into what it becomes, which is actually kind of the craziest part of all of it. Exactly. It's, as you said, it started with the DJ, Clive Campbell, AKA DJ Kool Herc, came to the Bronx when he was 12 years old from Jamaica, you know, and he grew up, uh, you know, with that sound system culture, You mentioned before that you had been to Jamaica and that, you know, when you were down there, you saw the big speaker boxes and everything. That's the culture down there. You know, anyone who's been to Jamaica knows it's a very poor country. You know, maybe, especially back then, maybe not everyone could afford a radio. So the sound systems were like a community

service in the ghetto. That was where you heard music. And music is such an important part of Jamaican culture and Jamaican life. You know, it's a musical culture. So, you know, there are different eras of reggae, you know, from ska and rocksteady, then moving into reggae, and then into dub, into dancehall. So the music in Jamaica has evolved almost simultaneously as hip-hop has evolved. And they're cousins, so there's such a cross-cultural influence between the two and you know you have so many jamaicans in new york and especially like in the 70s and 80s i kind of go into it in the book in the um i forget which chapter but i was talking about the kind of the evolution of the cocaine trade you know that was that you know the the the the gangsters in jamaica kind of brought that

to new york and the the drug culture and the music culture was so intertwined you know yeah like it starts to make sense for me because it was me kind of going back in time like i remember being a kid and listening you know we'll get to some of this a little bit later like the poor righteous teachers now with more of an education and reading i'm'm like, oh, this is what these guys are saying, as opposed to some junior high kid in a basketball layup line, you know, or understanding boogie down productions of KRS-One and how much Jamaican influence that he had. But also just something as simple as the chains of Run DMC and being like, no, no, we're emulating some of this this caribbean culture um that's influencing what we're doing you had a note though that i thought was really interesting about the sugar hill game as that became you know a mainstream consumable song that that reached out which for anything to grow you have to then go outside of your hardcore base and get other people interested in the

background of that song i i guess, I don't know, maybe I read it wrong, but it's not nearly as impressive as maybe it's held up historically. Can you share with us the story of like how that came together? Cause it seemed almost more like a gimmick that completely became really successful. It was, it was totally a gimmick because, um, you know, Sylvia Robinson, she was a former R andB singer She had a label, Sugar Hill Records With her husband Joe Robinson And I think her niece or something Kind of introduced her to this rapping thing

That was going on at the time And it was kind of totally a novelty at the time Not many people were doing it It was still pretty much in Harlem and in the Bronx. You know, you had in Harlem, you had DJ Hollywood, Eddie Chiba. So, you know, Sylvia being the kind of savvy, you know, record producer, record label owner. She was okay i want to record a rap song you know the thing is that had never been done before because rap was always about the party it was about the live jams in the park you know dudes just picking up the mic and just going off the top of the head

so you know i i i can never really diss that song rappers delight sugar hill gang because that was my introduction to rap you know i didn't grow up in new york i grew up in bemore baltimore and as a kid growing up there that was the first rap song i heard and that was huge it's like everyone everyone knew that song and if you couldn And if you couldn't be on the playground and recite the rhymes, you know, you would get a lot of shit from people, you know. So and kind of ironically, so Sylvia, you know, she wanted to make this rap song and she won about it by trying to find people who rapped. And, you know, she eventually basically put together this group artificially. She took three guys who didn't really know each other. Big Bank Inc. was one of them.

was one of them he happened to he happened to be uh from the bronx and he knew the dudes the real dudes from the bronx who were doing it like grandmaster kaz you know who's still around to this day doing his thing uh casanova fly shout out to casanova fly of grandmaster cas so he actually borrowed uh grandmaster cas's book of rhymes and in in in the lyrics of rappers delight he says i'm casanova fly that wasn't even his name you know so he took he wholesale bit the lyric he took the lyric actually cas gave it to him you know but it's kind of funny because big bang hank wanted to be he was a bouncer at a club in the Bronx and he wanted to manage this group called Cold Crush. Cold Crush was one of the early. Groups in in in hip hop and Grandmaster Kaz was a member of that group.

And he said, I know this lady who's putting together a group and I need some rhymes. So Cavs was like, here, take my rhyme book. So that was the foundation of Rapper's Delight. So even though, you know, you think of Rapper's Delight as like a novelty, a disco hit, the lyrics were straight from the Bronx, from Grandmaster Cavs. So and so and you know it was such an infectious tune it was like I mean that that not just in America that that tune was a global hit you know and that that basically introduced rap to the world so we got it you know we got to give it the credit that you do I just had never obviously I'd never heard that story before. I remember just having the moment as I got through that chapter where I was like,

somebody just gave him those lyrics and he was like, yeah, here we go. Okay, see, let's now get to Stat 9. Let's get to Brooklyn. Let's get to all the members. As anyone who understands anything about Wu-Tang, RZA is the spine. He's the backbone.

He's the vision. He's the one that got this all going. There's a bunch of different stuff that I want to get to there. I remember in the doc of Mice and Men, I don't know if it was Ghost or... I remember being at these house parties. I remember being at these block parties and just being young and

watching guys DJ and play the break. Then that led to break dancing and just watching this stuff and being in complete awe. I think ghost is the one that says I had one roller skate. Cause I used to just kind of spit around with a sneaker and then this one roller skate. So most of the guys are in Staten Island.

I know Jizza is in Brooklyn and I know Riz is kind of, you know, jumping from spot to spot. And then he's related to ODB and all this stuff. So the other part that I love about the book is you go, okay, how did this unique group come together? You've got the RZA who all of these guys are into music at a very young age. You've got the five percenter angle, which now makes a hell of a lot more sense.

And again, learning about it years ago, as opposed to just being a teenager, reciting rhymes, not understanding the mathematics and knowledge of self and and everything um and then you have risen you know going to times square at this time for new york city's history is a shithole and he's spending all day watching kung fu films and and understanding the the run run shaw stuff you know and all these different things that you know if you understand that history um how influential all these movies were what was it about riz that he was able to kind of you know take all these influences because if you were to describe it on paper and say hey i'm going to put nine guys together we're going to kind of be based on these kung fu films we're going to have this this through line and then we're going

to have these branches off of it everybody would everybody said that's the dumbest idea you could possibly have and i understand too is chris rakim and and the genius they had kind of their own thing but can you kind of take us from this part of just being influenced by all of these things and understanding how to shape it into a thing well that's basically the whole book there but i'm sorry i didn't i didn't i was just trying to you know for the listener i'm trying to make sure they understand and play a lot you know riz is a very special guy you know he's a very special guy i spent a lot of time with him he's a he's a incredibly sharp intelligent articulate guy um and apparently he's been like that all his life, you know, because imagine a young kid coming with a plan like that.

But basically he filtered all his experiences. He filtered his whole life into his art, you know, which is what any true artist does. And from an early age, you know, you mentioned that there's the family connection. I'll spell it out for you. RZA. RZA's grandmother is the sister of ODB's father. So they're kind of like not quite cousins but they are related you know on the other side jizz uh jizz's mother and riz's mother were related so you got the you got the foundation of these three cousins jizza and odb living in brooklyn rizza living in brooklyn and then eventually moving out to

staten island rizza moved so many times in his life he was like the nomad so you had this this was the foundation of the clan these three guys okay and as kids jizz uh jizz is the oldest oldest he's like he was born in 66 um odb was born in 68 and rizzo was born in 69 so uh jizza introduced the other two to rhyming because jizza has that jizza kind of had his father was from the bronx his father his father was from the Bronx. His father lived in the Soundview Projects in the Bronx. So GZA actually was the first person to be exposed to that Bronx hip hop scene, what we now call the old school, Kool Herc and all of them. GZA was around for those parties okay Disco King Mario all the old legendary Bronx DJs

Bambada, Herc so jZA is kind of infected by this this new thing called rhyming he introduces it to the cousins ODB and RZA and his kids you, they were kind of blown away by this and they were kind of totally, you know, when you're a kid, you kind of get into things deeply, you know, whatever it is. Some people get into sports, some people get into, you know, video games or whatever. These guys apply that same thing to rhyming. And, you know, they used to battle people on the streets. They used to go to different neighborhoods in New York and just battle people on the streets. What you got? What you got, son?

Kick some lyrics. You know, that was kind of like the scene back then. And then, you know, RZA had this other life where he's, you know, he's one of 11 kids, you know, RZA had this other life where he's, you know, he's a, he's one of 11 kids, you know, so going to Kung Fu movies in Times Square was kind of an escape for him. Imagine, imagine living in an apartment with like 10 siblings and your parents and other relatives. So the Times Square thing was kind of an escape for him, you know?

And it was in the seventies, you know, when Times Square was just freaking scary as shit. I remember going to New York. I had relatives in New York. And, you know, New York was a very different place then. Like the subway was all tagged up with graffiti. It was a very different place then. Like the subway was all tagged up with graffiti. It was a very scary place to be. And Times Square was like the terror dome. You know, it's like all these hookers, drug addicts on the street,

people shooting heroin on the street, you know, hoes giving blowjobs in the alleys. It was scary, you know. hoes giving blowjobs in the alleys it was it was scary you know and here you got these young kids uh you know eight nine ten years old cutting class and spending the day at these times square theaters and watching these movies meanwhile there's a dude smoking angel dust in the in the next aisle you know someone jerking off back here, you know, it's just like, I can't imagine what that thing, what that was like. But anyway, they were focused on the flicks, on the Kung Fu movies. And, you know, I was never big into those Kung Fu movies until I,

until I did this book and I went back and I watched all of them. I watched all of the same flicks that these guys used to watch. And it's just amazing the storylines and the philosophies of these movies. You know, you learn a lot from watching these movies. You know, you learn a lot about, it's not just about the action, about the fighting scenes, but you learn about brotherhood and loyalty and respect and honor. So these guys would basically watch these movies, be in the theater all day watching these movies, and then they'd come out. And also, you know, the Kung Fu is all about battling too, but they would battle lyrics, you know, they would go around battling with lyrics. And also they're exposed to these higher concepts you know

brotherhood trust loyalty so they're like so all of these things were in riz's mind you know and you know initially as you said he had a solo deal with tommy boy uh you know this is much later on when they're when they're you know when he's 1920. GZA was the first guy to get a record deal on Cold Chillin'. But both of those deals soured. They were dropped from the label. And it's like you're working all your life for something, and all of a sudden, the dream just disappears like that. But these guys were not the type of guys to give up. So RZA was like,

you know, he came up with that plan. He said, next time I'm not going into this industry alone, I'm going to come with the team. Okay. He already had his, his cousins were down, JZA and ODB and RZA, the All In Together Now crew from back in the days when they were kids, when they were teenagers. But now, by this time, he had Man, Raekwon the Chef, Ghostface Killer, who was just Dennis Coles back then. You know, I forget what his first name, what his first rhyming name was. I mention it in the book.

Who else? Original, who became Capadonna. And he was like, he was looking around him and he was looking around in the project. And he was like, man, there are so many talented dudes here. You know, when I, when I come back in the industry, I'm bringing all these people with me. We're coming as a team and we're just going to blast through. with me. We're coming as a team and we're just going to blast through. And it was unprecedented at the time for a hip hop group of nine people. I mean, that's a lot of dudes, you know, like,

you know, back then you maybe had like two, two guys, three guys, maybe four guys in a group, but it was unprecedented at the time for a nine-man group to blast through. But actually, it wasn't because in the original days, in the old school days of hip-hop, you did have big crews like that. Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, Funky Four Plus One More, Cold Crush. These were big crews of MCs, you know, six, six seven eight guys so wu-tang is kind of based on that template of the of the crew of the old school hip-hop crew and rizzo brought that into the 90s you know and just watching all the flicks you know he was ingrained with this philosophy this it's almost like a buddhist philosophy you know because i i

go into that pretty much in the book also about the whole science behind the kung fu flicks and you know run run shaw's specifically his his um the shaw brothers movies it was they were period pieces and they brought a element of reality and of chan buddhism into the mix and you know as a kid rizzo was totally influenced by those concepts and i think it was you know and and he you know at one point he used to even before the group even started he used to have all the guys over to his apartment in the projects. And they used to watch these flicks. So he was kind of schooling these guys. And I think I mentioned this in the book, too.

There was one movie they saw, Eight Diagram Hole Fighters. And he said that while they were watching that movie some of the guys actually broke down crying because it's kind of like an emotional tale of how these brothers how these eight brothers were killed by these evil guys I think one brother survived and he came back and he got his revenge.

And that's, to me, that's a story of Wu Tang. You know, one dude who was in the music industry, he got crushed. That was RZA. And then he comes back with his whole clan of brothers. And, you know, and they have such a huge impact in the industry because no one had ever experienced anything like this and even even experienced guys in the industry like i know this dude this writer and he was a former anr bones malone you might you might have heard of him you know rizzo brought the concept of bones and and you know bones will tell you himself he even laughed at it. He was like, man, what is this Wu-Tang shit?

What is this? You can't have a group with eight, nine guys in it. How are you guys going to eat, man? So it's like RZA just basically shattered all the preconceptions and all the illusions and all the templates and formulas. And he came with something completely fresh and original and new. And that's why Wu Tang has had such a huge and lasting impact because they are one of a kind, you know, and they brought such new energy to the game,

you know, before I get to, before I get to November 9th 1993, when 36 Chambers drops. And by the way, credit to you, that's the best answer that I've ever gotten off of my long-winded, not really a question, sort of, hey, fill in all the gaps here. So very good job by you, thing. That's not easy to do. How real were these guys? Because I love when Ghost says, like, he's like, ah, those Kung Fu movies at first.

He's like, eh. He's like, I wasn't really into them. And then he and Raekwon didn't like each other, right? Which is kind of hysterical, considering Cuban Lynx, you know, might be my favorite, second favorite. We'll get to that maybe a little bit later, and that those guys go back and forth

off of Raekwon's first solo solo deal but explain to us that these guys were were the were not exactly posers on the hip-hop scene like these guys were real dudes for a long time and actually kind of carried over once they became successful you know the musicians on top of whatever whatever else well all of all of the members of the Klan grew up in abject poverty. You know, project life is no, it's not fun. You know, if you've been to housing projects in New York, I mean, there's plenty of good, hardworking people, you know, who are just striving to get ahead who live there. But the projects are also known for just so many negative elements, you know, drugs, crime, you know, substance abuse. And these, you know, these guys, all each and every one of them grew

up in a bad situation. So they, they, they really, they really felt the struggle, you know, from day one. And I think, I think once you grow up in that, and you have an opportunity to do something else with your life, I don't think you take that for granted. I think all of these guys are supremely thankful for the opportunity that they've had. But at the time, when the group is still forming, these guys, I'm not going to say all of them were drug dealers, but that's basically the biggest opportunity for kids growing up in the project. advance yourself basically you know if you can go on the corner and make you know a few hundred dollars a day selling crack why why would you not do that why would you go work minimum wage at mcdonald's and you know have some kind of shit job so you know i'm not sure if i grew up in that situation if i would not have also become a drug dealer, you know? So it's like, there are certain opportunities that are open to you and you take what you can

get. So these guys, they grew up in the abject poverty. They had limited opportunities. They took the opportunities that they had and they ran with it. You know, like in you, God's book, he gets very detailed. I think you God was probably one of the deepest into the drug game because he gets very, he gives you pretty much a recipe for how to make crack out of powder cocaine. And, you know, they're very forthcoming about their experiences growing up, you know, and that's the reality of it. That's a struggle. the reality of it.

That's a struggle. That's another thing that you see about Wu-Tang. In the old school hip-hop era, it was always bragging and boasting, oh, I got Mercedes Benz, I got chains, I got so many hoes. One thing you see in

Wu-Tang is tales of reality. And even all the skits on the first, on the Enter the Wu-Tang is tales of reality, you know, and even all the skits, you know, on that first, on the Enter the Wu-Tang album, you know, the skits are so important, too, because those are slices of their life. You know, dudes getting shot and then on the street. And, you know, imagine seeing all this violence and stuff firsthand. It's got to have an effect on you, you know. Imagine seeing all this violence and stuff firsthand. It's got to have an effect on you, you know? So these guys were, these guys are as real as they come.

And I remember, you know, when I was first dealing with them, they were pretty raw. You know, they're used to a certain environment. And now all of a sudden they're in this music industry environment. And it took a while to make that transition you know you know what i'm saying because um they're you know they're not they're they're looking at people suspiciously they don't they don't trust everyone when you grow up on the block and you you have to deal with shit like that you're you know you're not you're not open you're not trusting people you know you it just it just shit like that. You're, you know, you're not, you're not open. You're not trusting people. You know, you, it just, it just comes with that whole turf. So these guys, these guys, I would say these guys are as real as, as, as they come. And,

and somehow they've managed to preserve that realness. You know, it's like, I can't, I can't say that anyone, any one of them has really gone Hollywood or, you know it's like i can't i can't say that anyone any one of them has really gone hollywood or you know you look at someone like and i'm not i'm not trying to diss jay-z or something like that but you know you look at someone like jay-z he's like he's like a big time art collector now that he's like and more power to him you know more power to him, you know, more power to him. He has evolved from corner drug dealer to now billionaire tycoon. You know, I don't see that even amongst the Wu Tang now, you know, even though they they're all they're all, you know, very savvy all doing their own little thing. But none of them is like on that level of a puffy or a Jay-Z or something like that, where they're flaunting their wealth and stuff like that, because they know the value of a dollar and they know, you know, what it day and they don't compromise and you know we love that because it's this this whole society especially the whole music industry is so superficial it's so image oriented and it's so fake you know and i think that's what that's why people gravitated towards the because they are so real and that's perfect because you know riz is

putting together all these beats he's telling all these guys like even you know you god who's in and out of you know getting into trouble he still had his back you know there are moments and i'll ask about it maybe a little bit later where you just go okay but he kept it nine deep like he always wanted to make sure and so then we see these videos of them you know inspect a deck off the top of protect your neck and you're just like holy shit you know and he's sitting in a room with his pad and then you know the rest of the guys and rayquan goes and you know meth's verse on that is incredible i watched the providence 1993 performance the other night and i just got chills again watching those

guys like in the beginning seeing this crowd freaking out and i'll admit i remember the date because i i went down to buy midnight marauders which is to this day my favorite cd start to finish the number of times i bought that cd rental car different city i'd be like oh shit i'll just go buy another copy of midnight marauders and throw it in before we were able to stream all this stuff i wasn't ready for wu-tang i was like what the fuck is this and even I was like what are the ninjas like what is this the deal like what's I don't quite get it and it was so raw I wasn't ready I wasn't ready so when it happened because I was still kind of in this melodic phase and you know off a low-end theory I like Midnight Marauders better which you know no one agrees with me on but what was it like

like were you in the city at that point the bobito stretch like what was that like when this song and these guys kind of took over at least the city in a way that it just doesn't really happen with rap i mean ryan you said you weren't ready we weren't ready i mean people who are in the people who are in the industry, hip hop heads weren't ready. Because I talk about the record release party on November 9th, 1993 at the Webster Hall in Manhattan, downtown Manhattan. And basically everyone who was anyone in hip hop was there. I've never seen so many hip hop artists in the crowd that night. And I'm talking generations of artists i think grandmaster kaz from cold crush was there that night jazzy jay all these old and you know

new york was was such at the time that you go you know you know almost every night there's hip-hop shows and you see you see all the artists. But you knew something was special at this because you because everyone who was anyone was there. You know, I'm talking about artists. Then also you had all the industry people there, A&Rs, people who publicist, anyone, everyone who works in the industry. And like we couldn't even figure it out. Street. And like, we couldn't even figure it out. Like there was like about 50 dudes on stage, you know, straight out the projects, man. And these dudes like scuffed up Timberlands, hoodies, you know, do rags. No one had seen shit like that before. And we didn't even know who was cause cause you know, on the cover of the

wu-tang the first of all the single had no pictures on the cover and enter the wu-tang they're all in the in the masks you know the stocking mask so we didn't even know who what the members of the group looked like i remember rolling up to that party though and guess who i ran into on the corner odb you can't forget that guy because his his braids were all twisted up in the air like medusa and he's got his little round specs and he's got a 40 of oe and he's already drunk as fuck on the street corner he's rapping he's battling people outside the show before the show even started. And I knew that dude was a member of the clan. I was like, that...

Because ODB also had his kind of own reputation, you know, from Stretch and Bombito and all that stuff. But that was a cataclysmic event, let's say, in hip-hop. The place was packed to the gills and

I remember people leaving that show they only did like three or maybe two or three songs but i remember people leaving that like a bomb had just gone off like i'm and i'm talking friends of mine in the industry what the fuck is that and like every wu-tang show i went to for the next two years was had that vibe to it it was had a very chaotic vibe you didn't know when they were going to show up if they were going to show up who was going to show up you know what fights were going to break out and and this was at a time in the early 90s late 80s early 90s in hip hop. This is when you had to go through the airport style metal detectors to get into the club because people used to bring shit into the clubs, man.

You know, so it was it was a it was a whole different time in in New York. And they just they just brought the motherfucking ruckus. That's all. That's all I got to say about it. You know, I always wonder because RZA had his disappointments and the JZA on the record label part of it with the way that the RZA constructed the deal for 36 chambers.

Right. You know, so he basically does a Wu-Tang deal, but then he's able to negotiate an option where the nine solo members can do their own thing, which I wonder if it was so ridiculous that the record label that eventually agreed to it was like, whatever.

Like, this is kind of weird, and it's not going to matter. Or also motivated by their own failures like hey let's let's negotiate in some stuff that nobody ever really has asked for and it doesn't really matter it felt like looking back it was a genius move but in the moment it actually makes a lot of sense i think from both sides whether it was rizzo protecting himself and all the members and a record label having doubts it It was both things. And it was very risky. In hindsight, we can say, oh, it looks great.

RZA was genius. He made a genius move. He took a huge risk, let me tell you. What we're talking about is the leaving member clause, which was kind of boilerplate or standard in music industry contracts back then, being that if a group signed to a label and the group broke up, the label that they were signed to had the rights to all the individual artists on the label. And that's what RZA managed to delete from the Wu-Tang contract. And the reason why it happened

was because on his side, as you said, he needed, from a financial point of view, he needed each of the guys to get solo deals if they were going to have any type of viable career. Because nine dudes split in the pot wasn't going to make it. They got a $60,000 advance for that album, split nine ways.

That ain't going to cut it. Each guy had families to support, and they had their own lives to lead. So that was the genius move, but it was also very risky. Because what if nothing ever happened to 36 Chambers? What if it didn't blow up? What if it just just went poof and it would have been forgotten about but on the other side of the of the mix you had steve rich in and loud records and he's also a very important part of the puzzle because steve is starting this independent label and he's a very smart dude. You know, he's, he, he,

he kind of pioneered this whole idea of street teams and stuff like that, marketing records from the ground up. But, you know, he was, he was just trying to get on at the time. You know, he was trying to, he was trying to get his label on the map and um he didn't have a lot of money he didn't have a lot of clout so and he was hungry so i think that coupled with riz's side of it made that deal happen the way it did. So Steve was able to, you know, Steve was still able to

retain a couple artists. He kept Raekwon and he kept Deck, you know, which I go into more in the book. But because Steve himself was hungry too, he was able to say, all right, fair enough, I'm going to sign the

group, but you have the rights to find everyone a solo home if it comes to that. And it took both of them to make it happen. But like I said, if 36 Chambers had never blown up the way it did, we wouldn't be sitting here talking about it. So RZA did take a huge risk. Steve Rifkin also took a huge risk. And the risk paid off at the end of the day. Method Man is not surprising. His voice, his presence, his crossover appeal to get the first solo deal.

I'll admit when Takao came out, then I was like, okay, because I was working at a music shop and I was starting to warm up. It just took me a little while. And then I sort of gravitated towards actually the ODB solo at the time. I didn't appreciate it. And then Only Bill for Cuban Links was the first time where I went, okay, wait a minute. This is fucking amazing.

So after Cuban Lynx, where I was like, oh, okay, then Liquid Swords, to this day, is probably one of my five favorite rap CDs of all time. To me, it's perfect. And your Do You Know Adan Rodriguez, the voice of I Know Such A Man, is our guest right now. Killing Hills 103.04. That was the song. How did you get in? I know no such man is our, is our guest right now. Kill it.

I was one on three or four. That was the song. How did you get in? How did you get in with them to that point where they'd actually have you on liquid swords? Well, at that time, um, you know, I was writing for a lot of magazines, especially the source and vibe and, and Rolling Stone. And it's like once, in that time, once you develop a rapport with a group,

it's like every magazine, and you do one article on them, it's like every magazine calls you when they want to do a Wu-Tang piece. Like, you know, so I had kind of like, I had done, well, to be honest, I wrote the press kind of like I had done. Well, to be honest, I wrote the press release for Protect Your Neck. Which was the first which was my first, you know, encounter with RZA. And also I was on the Grave Diggers album. I was on a skit because I was friends with Prince Paul, and Prince Paul put me on a skit on Gravediggers

as a crooked lawyer on Diary of a Madman. So that was the actual first time that I met RZA in the studio. And then you know, he's such a intelligent guy, and he's such an interesting guy that we just developed

a good rapport, you know, and that just carried over and also also with genius um you know after interviewing i just i just developed a very good rapport with those guys and um you know they remembered me and and i just kept i just kept on doing articles for different magazines on the group. So that's how I kind of got in there. But, you know, it was very weird because they were very distrustful of journalists, very distrustful of media. And, you know, they were still very caught up in the 5%, you know, whole ideology, white people are devils and shit like that. So I think I always develop a good rapport with artists because

I'm a journalist and this is what I do. I used to cover a lot of rap. I used to cover a lot of hip hop back in the day. I was used to know, I'm, I was used to, I was comfortable being in, in, in situations that other people might not be, you know? You know, there were certain times when in the studio where the, where the, where the honey dip blunts were being passed around, you know, angel dust. And, you know, I was, I was comfortable in those situations. So I,

I just, I guess that's how I ended up, you know, in there, but that was a, that was, that was a memorable time doing that, doing that skit for liquid swords for sure. By the way, you should tell Prince Paul, I really appreciated handsome boy modeling school. I don't think that it didn't get the love it deserved. There's some really smart stuff on that. Okay, you mentioned Angel Dust. Good segue. Because meth in the book,

as he admitted before, but that makes a hell of a lot of sense that Angel Dust played a big influence on his first solo effort. Because that is a weird, mysterious, dark CD, which holds up and to this day is one of the ones where you go, it's so different. And man, the amount of work RZA put in to get all these guys, the first five guys to get their solo deals, while trying to figure out the second album, which ends up being Forever,

to get all this stuff done and to make it identifiable based on the MC that he's he's working with um and still hoping you know there's another couple guys waiting on their solo deal with all this um it's just an incredible thing it'd be like writing one of the you know picture of the year and then also writing three television shows that all win emmys while you're working on the sequel to the picture of the year it's just it's unbelievable what. RZA was able to accomplish and why you can understand it falling off because of his guiding force in the beginning. For sure. I mean, you know,

he, he says in a lot of interviews for those first three or four years, he didn't leave the basement. You know, the other guys were going around partying, enjoying the fame. RZA was stuck in there on his drum machine and on his keyboards and shit. And that's how he was able to improve his craft to such an amazing extent. that first round of solo albums, each album was Wu Tang,

but it also sounded so different, you know, he came and he knew those MCs so well that he came with, with, with beats that, that completely complimented their lyrical skills, you know, and that's something that you can't just take for granted because, you know, um, it's, even though it might seem easy to make rap rap seems like a fairly straightforward kind of art form uh it's actually very complex you know especially when you get into situations where you have these dudes with such lyrical complexity each of the mcs and w Wu-Tang have such of their own unique style and complexity. And to, to,

to, to, to bring the beats that bring out that style is just incredible. So yeah, RZA, he was a workaholic, you know, he was in the,

he was in the dungeon nonstop, constantly improving his craft. Every time he finished an album, he would buy a new piece of equipment and master that, you know. And then eventually he became a musician. He started playing guitar. He started playing keyboards. He started experimenting. You know, that was always his goal was to become a musician, because I think a lot of people in hip hop think that, oh, you know, dudes outside of hip hop don't think this is music. You know, they don't really give us the respect that they give real musicians who play an

instrument. So I think RZA was always trying to improve himself and push it to the next level. And that's why you can't really have a repeat of that era you know because he himself has evolved so much as an artist you know and then he got into really weird experimentals by the time he got to the bobby digital which it was his solar work it's totally different from that early wu-tang stuff right but i know for a fact that he that he probably has in the vaults he probably has tons of unreleased material because when i used to spend time with him he used to play me beats and you know some of those beats ended up

on albums but i know a lot of them didn't so if they're still around if he didn't lose them in the various floods because he's been there's been floods that have that have been you know that have gotten rid of some of the stuff inspected decks original first album was totally destroyed in a flood so uncontrolled the uncontrolled substance that you hear is totally different than the one that was supposed to come out so i'm sure he still has a lot of stuff in the vaults, you know? Yeah. That's, that's really sad. I mean, I hated that for deck is decks the first guy we ever hear, you know, that's our first introduction to Wu and you know, I always kind of, you know, and I,

I had these thoughts before I'd read your book and then I still have the same thoughts after the fact is like meth crushes it with his first one, but then his solo thing just wasn't the same. ODB has... The first one's amazing. Again, it wasn't for me in the beginning. It wasn't what I was into, and now I still listen to it and appreciate it.

We mentioned Rage, Ghost. Ghost's first two were great. And again, Liquid Swords to me is perfect. But Deck has to wait four years. You gods, in and out to me is like perfect. But Deck has to wait like four years. You gods, in and out of prison, master killer. There had to be, and I saw some of it in the doc, but there had to be some massive animosity

from three of the members looking at the other six crushing it. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. And they kind of keep it within the family a lot. But you god, in you god's's book he goes into it a lot he was he was he was probably you know him and master killer got the shortest shrift of it because they released album solo albums like years later after that you know and they they weren't't able to capitalize off the initial buzz

of Wu-Tang. So I kind of feel bad for those guys. And there is definitely animosity, because think about it, after the Raekwon album, Cuban Lynx, we see Capadonna slide into the mix. And he had a solo

album even before U- God and Master Killer. And he wasn't even a member of the group back then. You know, since then he's joined, but he totally slid up. But that was all based on the buzz, you know, because after Cuban Lynx, people were like, yo, who is this dude Capadonna? You know, we need to hear more Capadonna. You know, so he, he kind of moved up in the, in the ranks, but, um, you know, Wu Tang,

I think the, I think the, the reason that they're still around too, is because they're, they're so close, they're brothers, they're family. They, you know, they grew up together. They're brothers. They're family. They grew up together. Their moms know each other. And family, we all know family fights, too. There's internal fights in the family, and we've seen it. We've seen it. And that's kind of another thing we love about Wu-Tang. They can criticize each other, but try for to try someone else try for someone else to criticize RZA or someone like that these guys will pounce on you man you know because they're

they're they're loyal to the cause you know they they're they're loyal to the cause but yeah there was animosity for sure you know got to be real about it you know I want to talk about ODB there's two more things that i want to talk about um because you know he became this whether it was the mtv deal where he's in a limo and everybody remembers this you know my generation you were like oh this guy from woots angle dirty bass is like got a bottle of champagne he's in a limo he goes to pick up his public assistance on mtv and it's like wait what, what? And it just, he didn't care. But as you point out in the book and anybody that got to know him, like there was this warm side to him

where people loved him and his musical influence. Like you couldn't figure out if it was, I think in the beginning you're like, wait, is this guy just terrible? Or is he actually, is this guy amazing? You know, because his solo, even though it took him two years, his first solo is really great. I mean, it really is once you kind of sign up for it, right? You're like, okay, this is going to be different. It's going to be weird. But towards the end, it's a really sad story. The legal problems were nonstop.

He had the body armor vest felony charge in California. He had all the times he'd been stopped for not having a license, not having license plates, and then crack vials in the car. He had another thing in Virginia, in and out of rehab facilities, not showing up to court dates. And then you kind of take us through the timeline of the very end before he's finally kind of like thrown back in prison again. Can you tell that story? Because he really was somebody that was like at large and trying to kind of operate in a daily routine from time to time. And he ends up at a McDonald's where it all kind of goes down. Yeah, it's a real sad story about ODB. ODB, you know, if I had to pick a favorite member of the clan, I love RZA and GZA, but if I had to pick a favorite member, I would pick ODB.

I used to run into him on the street in Brooklyn because I used to live not far from his grandmother's house in Brooklyn, in Bed-Stuy. And I ran into him on the street several times and he was always by himself. And he was always super funny and like super humble. You know, usually you run into guys, they got an entourage around them. They got their boys. But I tell you, every time I ran into ODB, whether it was in Manhattan or Brooklyn, he was by himself. So this guy was like a man of the community, man. Like people in Brooklyn loved him.

You know, he used to stop his BMW at a red light, get out, and just hand dollar bills to everyone. Now, that was the type of guy he was. He loved Brooklyn, and Brooklyn loved him. dollar bills to everyone. That was the type of guy he was. He loved Brooklyn and Brooklyn loved him. Even though he got shot a couple times in Brooklyn,

there's a lot of jealousy on the streets too. ODB and all the Klan guys will tell you this too, he was 100% unadulterated.

What you see is what you get. Unedited, unadulterated. That was him, you know? He was, that's just his personality. And even talking to his family members, you know, I spoke to his mother, I spoke to his older brother, Ramsey. He was like the life of the party growing up when when he you know when he was a kid and stuff like that the problem is

you know he also had an addictive personality you know so in the beginning it was just it was just malt liquor it was just it was just the beer and the wine and you know that's how he gets into into into the mode you know that drunken monk mode but i think when he eventually got into the music industry and was making a lot of money you know that's when the that's when that whole thing got dangerous because he was exposed to not just alcohol now he's exposed to coke and crack and all this shit and we know that shit is highly addictive you know and highly destructive so once once that stuff gets a hold of you, it just totally changes your personality. It changes who you are.

It changes your priorities. And that's a sad story. That's a sad case of ODB because it didn't have to go down like that. I kind of wonder, you talked about all the traffic violations he had and stuff, and then they find drugs in his car. you talked about all the traffic violations he had and stuff, and then they find drugs in his car. I kind of wonder what would have happened if he had a drug dealer who delivered to him or something like that, if it would be the same thing,

because the reason why I wanted to elaborate on all the legal woes was to show also that once you're caught up in the system, you're not getting out. You know, once you're caught up in the, in the justice system, you're not getting out. You know, once you're caught up in the, in the justice system, there's just like no going back. And, and, you know, the whole thing with the vest, wearing a bulletproof vest, this, this is a guy who was shot on the streets twice. Man, if I had been shot, I would, I would, I would walk around with a bulletproof vest too, right?

It just so happens that in California, they had just passed a law because a cop had been shot in that bank robbery that you can't wear a bulletproof vest. So here's a situation where the guy is trying to protect himself, and then he gets thrown further into the system, you know, with the vest. thrown further into the system you know with the vest and then he just kept on making mistakes not showing up for court dates and it just just it just it just borrowed him deeper into that shit you know and you know a lot of a lot of people now you, like I'll give you an example of like a Hollywood star, like, what's his name? Robert Downey Jr. You know, he was at one time he was a big coke head. And he had to, you know, he had to go into rehab and everything.

And he totally changed his life around, you know. Because he wasn't caught up in that criminal justice system you know and odb's first i think his first violation he got into a bar brawl in like the early 90s that was his first uh charge for assault and that haunted him the rest of his life because once you have a record they will not let you and and then you commit some other act even if it's a traffic violation they're going to pull you back in and then if you miss a court date forget it get even deeper into it so that's that's why i wanted to kind of elaborate that whole story of Dirty's demise, because it really didn't have to be like that. This is just a dude who's just a fun-loving guy.

He never hurt anyone in his life. You can talk to his mother, his family, all of the clan. He was, he was such a, he was such a peaceful, kind person, you know, and he was wild too. I'm not saying he wasn't wild and crazy, but he didn't deserve that. He didn't, he didn't deserve to be in Rikers and all this stuff. And then, you know, he's a Dan Amora, right? For a while. Yeah. Yeah. Yup. Where, where, where, where Tupac Tupac was um and you know you take a guy like that and you put him in prison and that makes it even worse because now he's around like hardened thugs who are who are gunning for him you know know? And he's got to protect himself.

Now he's a well-known celebrity. He's in jail. Everyone's trying to test him, you know? And I'm not saying he's soft, but he's not that type of dude, you know? Dirty of all the people in the Klan, he grew up in a very stable household. Mother and father both worked, brothers and sisters.

You know, I talk about it in the book. His mom used to make pancakes on the weekends. His dad used to take him fishing. You know, he could he I would say out of all the clan he grew up, even though they even though it was hard times, he grew up in the most stable household, you know. And for someone like that to have been. To collide with the criminal justice system is just horrible. And to me, that's what did it. His whole interaction with that criminal justice system, which is so corrupt, and it just pulled him down into the mud. And obviously, on the other side his addiction his his addictions did it as well so i always i may confuse which part of staten island it was but i i just always

thought it was interesting that depending on which project you were from like one group would call the other guy's country and they were still but just because they had that little area that little area in the back where they would talk about rafting and be like oh you guys are the country guys you know and it just like just for me it seems impossible that just because you had this little swampy area with some brush and some trees out back that you know they acted like it was montana yeah isn't that crazy park hill yeah right had that nice land behind it so the stapleton guys would make fun of park hill called yeah have you have you been out to have you ever been out to staten island have you been because stapleton man is scary as shit man it looks like yeah i

haven't found stapleton in my hotels tonight app i usually stay stapleton doesn't pop up all right last last thing skis before i let you go um it's weird uh to accomplish something like they did okay this isn't just about selling records this isn't just about being popular and being famous this was a identifiable shift in a music where i mean to me like the greatest artists are people that we aren't ready for, you know, that later on you go, holy shit. Now I get it what it was that these guys were doing. And they had the immediate impact

on top of this stuff becoming timeless for a bunch of years. But because it filtered off, which you touch on in the book, and I think you're incredibly fair about it too, where I was like, I wonder how he's going to handle some of the later releases where everybody's kind of like it's over it's that we're releasing cds but it's not really happening you know and there's do they feel

maybe let me phrase it this way have they gotten to the point in their lives where they appreciate the magnitude of what it is they've done or like a lot of artists is there still this unfulfillment of hoping to chase or capture what it was when've done or like a lot of artists is there still this unfulfillment of hoping to chase or capture what it was when they were at their peak oh no i think i think for sure uh at this point you know they're all in their 50s i think they understand the impact that they've had because they've been around the world now and they they see the influence of Wu-Tang around the world, you know, and what their whole... You know, to me, they brought it a renaissance of real hip-hop, you know, and it had such a lasting impact, and it influenced the whole next generation of artists, you know? And I think when I hear them talk now, I think they,

I think they get it. I think they realize that, yo, you know, we really did something strong here, you know? And I think that's why also that they're still together and,, you know, they say hip hop is a young man's game, but something like writing, you know, writing is a craft that you get better with age. So personally, I don't think they've lost it. I think if they really wanted to, they've lost it. I think if they really wanted to,

I think if RZA and all of them could really get on the same page, I think there's another Wu-Tang album that we could all really love and appreciate, you know? And I think secretly, not even secretly, I think all the fans are still holding out for that you know we know that that era of the 90s between like 93 and 97 was was the wu-tang era but there's nothing to say that yo that they could reunite and do something you know that that's going to make us they nod our heads and say, yo, you guys still got it. Yeah, I kind of feel it. Because I feel like if they just said, all right,

we're doing this for real. We're putting it all behind us. It's all the business shit that's in the way. Because even like doing this book, now they each have separate managers. So to get an interview with them it's like you got to go through nine different people you know and it's like and imagine what that's like when they're trying to put together a tour and and get the divide you know it's all it's all

money now so that's money money ruined it but you know um they still did their thing. You've got to have so much respect, as you said, for their 90s output. And maybe subsequent albums weren't as good, but at least we're happy that they were still doing it. Because we love Wu-Tang. We want to see them together. We want to see them thrive.

It's like they are a family, and fans have become part of that family. We are always pulling for Wu--tang i really want to thank you for your time today and honestly for this book and even for those listening because you know the podcast that i do we do a lot of different things even if you weren't even you know like the biggest wu-tang fan the the history the foundation of hip-hop learning about this and learning about the industry and then learning about all these guys that defied the odds and stuck it out and never said hey Hey, you know what, let's just cut

half the guys out, which probably a lot of people would have done as you mentioned. And we've heard before their mothers knew each other. So there's a connection here. That's beyond just the art part of this. Um, you do just a tremendous job. It's one of my favorite books I've read in the last year or so. So skis, thanks a lot, man. I appreciate it. Respect, man. Thanks very much. And I've enjoyed talking about it. I could talk about Wu-Tang for days. So thank you for giving me the opportunity to spout off a little here. And by the book, you will not be disappointed. You're going to learn about so much besides music, so much besides hip-hop, because that's the beautiful thing about Wu-Tang. There's so much knowledge,

wisdom, and understanding to be gained from their story and so much inspiration, too, that we can all take on an individual basis. So respect for that. Right. Some could say it's all the history you need

so there you go thanks again man good looking man you want details bye i drive a ferrari 355 cabriolet what's up i have a ridiculous house in the south fork i have every toy you can possibly imagine. And best of all, kids, I am liquid. So, now you know what's possible. Let me tell you what's required. Before we get to life advice, maybe a little bit of a Tool recap. Saw Tool last night, Anaheim.

One of the great live shows I've ever seen. A little bit of a tear back in the music scene a little bit between the jazz deal in New York City, a quick stop in Chicago to see Widespread and Tool, which is a completely different experience. It's a little difficult to explain. I don't think you can talk it up too much because I think even somebody who casually likes your music or just loves good live music, if you say, hey, you're about to have like a two and a half hour experience it's it's gonna be different than anything you've ever seen in music uh i feel comfortable saying that because it's that could have a scene now the crowd probably not gonna meet your wife there um i'll admit i'll admit you know there's moments where i you know i saw a guy just absolutely rocking out to whatever song, pick a song. And then he's got his girlfriend holding his arm and he's screaming the lyrics to Opiate in her ear. And then a couple finger cymbals up in the air, rocking, headbanging. And then after the song is over they hug and kiss and i was like i don't

ever i don't think i could ever see myself doing that like i would love if my girlfriend didn't want to go to tool with me um but again if you have that kind of relationship where you and your girlfriend i mean there's probably a lot of relationship scenarios that i observe where i go i couldn't really see myself doing that um but hey that's great you guys found something you both are super interested in uh the other way to describe it too it's a bit like this music that just marches over you um it's it's just different um in a way when they really start getting going uh it's it kind of reminds me like of a movie from the future, and they would say, hey, the dictator is coming to address everybody, and then this is the band that plays music while the dictator shows up to address his minions. It's that kind of power.

It's a very powerful thing. kind of got a different approach to things. I can't imagine what it feels like 20 plus years doing this and having that kind of, not the ego part of it, which is obvious, but the power of just dominating a room and creating this sound that everybody is just completely hypnotized by. And then I started thinking about myself as a dictator, which was a weird three minute stretch. It could have just been the vaping around me, but I was like, would I be a good dictator? Would I be, can you be a dictator and like be open-minded about stuff but i was like would i be a good dictator would i be can you be a dictator like be open-minded about stuff i was like yeah i think you could you would just be like hey we're not we're not doing that that's a terrible idea and it's just that's it there's no

debate like i think my instincts would be good and then i was like you know what let's stop thinking about this and uh yeah that was that was tool so i know you guys have a few questions before we get to life advice yeah so tool i i admittedly don't have like a huge now like catalog knowledge of their songs i know like the main ones i know sober i think schism right is another pretty big one um but what i remember from tool was like all the kids that were kind of like on that like weird goth you know kind of weird fringe line high school would always wear like tool gear so i was always like oh tool must suck and then i and then you listen and then you like grow up and you actually realize hey this is like kind of good music it was like nine inch nails for me like all the nine inch nails kids wearing t-shirts like that's weird like

that's a little too intense for me and then in college i started listening to tret res or nine inch nails you're like this music is incredible what like what was i missing all these years and tool was kind of that way um but i don't know i just i is it like hard rock like because because that did i ever tell you guys i went to os fest in high school and it was actually one of the best concerts i've ever been to in my life and i'm not even like a big hard metal guy so it's a live music thing it was ozzy wasn't there it was a system of down which was great it was disturbed which was great uh lacuna coil was there which is like a smaller type band uh and i absolutely loved it but we're talking

like concert with like 50 year old women with no shirts on painted boobs kind of thing it was a weird vibe for a kid in high school but i loved it it was like one of the top five concerts i've ever been to so i kind of feel like i'd love tool i just don't know i don't know if that's the vibe or like what what kind of vibe we're going for. Ozzfest trends a little bit older than Tool does. And you're right. Like when I went to one of the Chicago shows, but it wasn't in the city for Tool, it was outside. And, you know, it had had some Breaking Bad vibes in that audience, where I was like, whoa, you know, what's going on over here? So yeah, I can get how you could stereotype the entire fan base by just any kind of experience. I remember the first time a kid came in, you know, back when

I was in high school working at a CD shop, and he was like, Do you have tool? And I was like, well, there's one in front of me, you know, like, who, who's this guy? And what the hell is he talking about? But what you start to realize is that it's different like there's some of the metal hard rock stuff that i think is just terrible and i won't have an open mind about it but if you are into music in any way like there's a part of you like any of my friends that were late to it and i go no just give it a chance don't judge people because you saw a kid you know behind cumberland farms in a tool t-shirt for seven straight days. Like just it's a little different. It's a little different than that.

So are you Googling Oz Fest, Kyle? No, it sounds great, though. Well, actually, you know, it doesn't. Those were all kind of the bands that like I would have thought it would have been like Black Sabbath or something. It's Ozzy's thing, obviously. Right. No, it wasn't Connecticut. He goes to some of them. I think at that point, this was probably 2005,

2006. And he would pick the big shows. And Connecticut wasn't the big show for him. So he wasn't there. Yeah, all those bands that you mentioned, like 9 Inch Nails, Disturbed. Disturbed is great. It seemed that, I don't know, maybe it was just the cover art. I never really listened

to, like, all my friends listen to hip-hop. That's just what it was. Like, I don't know, maybe it was just the cover art. I never really listened to, like, all my friends listen to hip hop. That's just what it was. Like, I listened to some 70s rock in secret. Like, if it wasn't like a locker room approved rock song, guys were like, what the fuck are you doing? So, I don't know. I never really had the aha moments with any of these bands. I was just like, oh, yeah, that's weird album art.

I didn't like the first song I heard. Sorry, Nine Inch Nails. I'll never know you. I'm not surprised Rudy got into Nine Inch Nails because some of the soundtrack stuff he does alone is unbelievable. He's incredible.

He did Social Network network which was one of my favorite scores and soundtracks ever it's amazing um i gotta be honest i don't know that a ton of guys drive around and listen to a score so i talked to adnan about this i think this is why he actually liked me because i'd be like i didn't like the movie but damn it sounded fucking awesome i remember thinking that about uh the superman movie man of steel like the movie sucked but it sounded fucking sick and it it's like, yes, yes, yes. So yeah, I'd imagine

not a ton of people driving around listening to the Social Network score soundtrack, but it was great and it was Trent Reznor. One of my buddies used to work out to the first Sicario soundtrack, which I was like, wow, that's pretty intense. All right, let's get to it. Let's do a little life advice

here. Lifeadvicerr at gmail.com. Did I answer all the questions about Tool? I think we covered it, right? Because we've touched on it before. Yeah. So. Not finding love at a Tool concert, I guess. Noted.

No, and I'm not even judging the couples there. I just would see it and go, you guys really found each other. You guys really did. Okay. All right. Here we go. Oh, a female emailer that's right recently my boyfriend i'm female i don't know if that changes anything

we'll just you know we'll try to be delicate try to we'll try to handle this uh with a sensitivity that is not part of our chromosome makeup right it definitely changes something for me yeah it does okay um all right we've already made this awkward so off to a terrific start here that's one girl on can't figure out how to the one the one email that we get from a female each month um chimes in and then we already fuck it up out of the chute because as i'm saying it's like wait are you saying all women are sensitive like now i'm just making fun of ourselves so here we go how about we start over all right recently my boyfriend I'm female don't know if that changes anything too late uh I've been dating him for three and a half years he

told me that I gained weight it's about 10 pounds fine but he said it in the worst way possible by adding that he has stopped being attracted to me and that while I am quote beautiful I am not quote hot no Come on. He's also made some mean comments here and there over the last few months. He's been pointing out hot women. Now I know why. He says he still loves me and isn't giving me an ultimatum, but that he wanted to tell me so that I could do something about it in order to fix the problem.

He also mentioned that he has felt this way for a while now. I feel really upset and humiliated. I'm fine with losing weight and want to look good for him, but my head, this is the person I want to be with forever. And it really worries me that this attraction to me can be hurt by something as dumb as 10 pounds. What happens when I have kids and my boobs sag or I age like a normal human being? I've explained this to him and he apologized for quote, being an asshole, which I really appreciate. He's awesome about acknowledging how I feel and apologizing. Yeah, the problem is how often is he apologizing and stuff. But he obviously feels some type of way about my body. I've started my diet, but I just don't know how I can take off my clothes in front of him right now with feeling like he's judging me before I've lost the way. It also creates this

weird power dynamic, in my opinion, where he feels like he thinks he's hotter than me and can do better although he says that's not true so that's the way she feels by the way I hope anybody any guy that's listening and I whatever you know all of our flaws can be in relationships I've never understood the the guy who talks down to the person that he says that he loves you know if you're not trying to find a way to uplift the other person or make them feel better when things are down, even when you don't even have the right thing to say, that is your role in the relationship. It's not these men that are fucking insecure dickheads that have their own shit. And then they try to figure out, well,

wait, if I can bring her down to my level, then maybe I'll have more control, more upper hand in the relationship. And if I can convince her that she can't do any better than me, then, you know, that'll, that'll give me the power in the relationship. Um, I understand upper hand, not having the upper hand in the relationship, you know, I've been on both sides of it, but for any of the guys out there that do that stuff, I've been on both sides of it, but for any of the guys out there that do that stuff, it's really, to hear her words and read this, it's a really hurtful thing. And you could be oblivious to the pain that you're actually causing somebody because if she's having all these thoughts run through her head and she's emailing this show,

clearly it's been an issue. So as she said, she said she started her diet. Feels like he thinks he's out of me. She said, although he says that's not true. Help, what do I do? I don't think he wants to. I don't think this warrants a breakup. I love him. I'm glad he was honest with me, but I feel pretty shitty about it in my body. What do I do? All right. I think some people are going to be like, hey, if he has this in his game, then it does warrant a breakup. be a problem and look to be fully i think all of us if we're being honest all of us have a moment with the partner um where there be a version of it where you would no longer be attracted to your partner 10 pounds 10 pounds is the standard i mean who gives a shit um it's it's there's a million things going on and you know people people's, people's weight fluctuate anyway. So, uh, you have nothing to worry about in that part of it. Really? You're asking,

you know, how do you handle this with this guy? I think I would be super direct about it. You're like, Hey, there's times when we make mistakes and we can apologize to each other, but I'm not going to, I'm not going to sit here and feel like shit or be second guessing your long-term commitment to me because I put on a little weight coming out of winter and coming out of pandemic. And his reaction to that would probably be the answer that you need about what it means for the long-term relationship. Don't be hesitant at all. Be super direct. Tell them how you exactly feel like, hey, just so you know these are all the things that i ran through in my head and by the way i emailed a fucking sports podcast

to try to get some answers on all of this stuff and as much as i don't know you know the debate of do we change can we change as people if he doesn't change this um because now you're talking about how he how he out how he handles this out loud with you versus is there some lingering thing in your in his head where it's actually going to be a problem you know yeah you're not going to have the answer the second part of that but how he reacts to this and if there's any pivot from some of this behavior that you don't feel great about if there's no pivot at all then you kind of have your answer because if you're going to sit there and say, well, I like everything else about him, but I have now all these insecurities because of the way he's talked about my body.

You know, that's, that's not going to be, I mean, do you want to come home to that? Like, I always think about relationships this way. Do you come home and fucking dread it? Or do you come home and you're excited about it? And honestly, excited is probably a little too dread it or do you come home and you're excited about it and honestly excited is probably a little too um unrealistic at times but do you come home maybe that could just be the standard do you come home and you regret it or or do you come home and it's like either neutral to happy yeah that's that sounds more realistic yeah less very true to happy right right because i've had situations where you just go like i actually don't want to spend time. What am I doing? This is

somebody I don't want to spend time with. So, okay, fine. I have my answer. So it sounds like you do want to spend time with this person and everything else. And honestly, her picture came through on the Gmail. Kyle, you're right. She's a keeper. So, little ego

boost for you on top of this, everything else, unless it's just an awesome picture. I don't know. But yeah, I wouldn't worry about this. But I know it's hard and it's very simple for me as a guy to say, oh, I don't worry about it, whatever. But that's a pretty tough standard if he's getting on your case about putting on 10 pounds.

But some guys are real weird and can be dicks about it. Um, all right. I don't know, Kyle, anything else? Um, just that, you know, when I, when I take the notes for this, just in case we say a name or say something we really shouldn't have, I always put like a life advice, number one, and then the little thing like life advice, number one, uh, guy at the speaker with a guy at the gym with a speaker. This one, I just wrote life advice. Number one, a guy at the speaker with a guy at the gym with a speaker. This one, I just wrote life advice. Number one, boyfriend is mean. And I think that's what it comes down to. I think he might be a mean person. I'm not sure why, like there are some guys that do this. I don't think it's the old school way of being in relationship. I don't know if those guys

read like a chapter in the game and like tattooed on it on him or something and really take it seriously. But it's just, that's not how we, that's not how most people operate. And I mean, most guys would have the sense to say, even if it's, even if like, you know, maybe you put on 40 pounds and it is bothering him, there's just, you don't do that. Like, there's just like, you know, there's, there's definitely ways to like make it about us and we're going to get healthier or whatever, just to be like, I'm not attracted to you anymore because you're, you know're heavier than you were when we started dating. I mean, I guess you could...

It's good that he's... No, it's not. It's not good, but he's being direct, but it just means he's got no... He's not thinking. He's not thinking, so I don't... I think you should probably leave him. Maybe cheat on him. I'm kidding. Just leave him. Well, you do have her email now, Kyle,

so who knows? We'll talk. What's up? Look out um i think everything kyle said was right and it's it's it is important to be honest in relationships though like if it you know be honest about your feelings like if you are feeling a certain way let the other person know and honestly in in the case of like weight or appearance or even just like you know if you're if you're slipping if you're being lazy or something at work and you're and your significant other notices that i i would want my significant other to call me on that stuff and i think we do in my relationship with my wife maddie um but kyle hit it on the nail on the head that like there's a there's a line between being honest

and keeping someone in check and just being fucking a dick and being mean and i think you know i i kind of understood okay like, like you, maybe he's just, he wants the best for her. And he's trying to say, Hey, like, you know, maybe you're slipping a little bit. I just want to let you know. But like the thing that kind of flipped me to like this guy's kind of tool is he's sitting there talking about how other girls are hot, like in front of you, like that to me, that's not, that's not helping the situation. That's just him being a dick right into your face. So, um, while I understand like in relationship that you have to be honest, I think that's healthy. There's a there's a very fine line between being a dick and being honest and trying to

prop up your partner. I don't think that's what he's doing to you. And I'm not going to sit here and tell you to break up with him. But there's a lot of shit I feel like that you guys got to work out if that's the case, if he's so comfortable going to you and being that mean to you. Yeah, because you're in a relationship like, you know, the bachelor's on sometimes in my in the background of my house. I'm doing a puzzle or something.

She's watching The Bachelor. I can't even remember if that's the show. But sometimes like girls are just like it's very important or guys even. It's like, you know, it's very important. Like bodies, we have to be, you know, bodies are really important to me. But like, yeah, that's when you're starting out. But if you're, you know, three years into a relationship, that's now your problem, guy. It's not it's your problem to deal with it, not to just make it her problem and then walk

away. Like, hope, hope you don't cry for the rest of your life. Like now it's your problem. If, if like, if being physically attractive is important and I think it is all important, but like in the beginning you get to like, you know, you get to decide what you're going to do, but now you're three years in a relationship. If you want to stay with her, it's not just, you don't just lay that at her feet. Like you got to worry, worry about it, pal. Like, it's not like you can't just say, yeah, I'm, I'm not into this anymore, really, but still love you. And like, you know, see you for dinner. You can't just like lay that at her feet. That's like, that's something you're going to have to deal with. It sounds like he hasn't

even really dealt with it. He just kind of said it and walked away. So that's just a red flag. Were you ever mean to your girlfriends, Kyle? No, I don't think so. No, you know, I've got, I've said some stuff in a fight that I was like, wow, I could be good at this if I wanted to,

but I'm sorry. I'm really sorry about that. I won't say that again, but just quick. You had the takes. Yeah. I was always the uglier one in the relationship too. Like,

you know, dude, I did eight to tens. I was always, I was always the uglier one. Eight to tens. Poughkeepsie tens, Scott.

Hey man, I haven't had a ton of girlfriends i pick and choose them and sometimes they've been absolutely awful because of because of the uh because of the personality part of it but you know the last run the last four girlfriends have been pretty and awesome they've been pretty awesome if i say so myself so but i've always been the ugly i've never been i've never never been the one who had to say anything or even thought about saying anything. Has anyone asked you to shave off a few LBs?

No. Actually, no. Actually, no. I think I'd probably make a joke about myself. I'd be like, no, what are you talking about? It's like, oh, good, great. I'm glad I could continue being me. I mean, look, we had Willie Colon on a couple weeks ago,

and he said he weighed 436 is that what was that's a number something big something and then he asked his wife and his wife's like I don't know you still look sexy to me you know and Willie Colon's obviously a huge guy he's gonna carry 436 perhaps a little differently than most of us would but still 436 is fucking huge um I think there's also like a part of this conversation where guys are just going, hey, there's still a number. There's still a number. But I don't think any of this equates to the email. We're talking about 10 pounds. And the more I think about it, we're talking about a boyfriend that said, you're not hot. Now, the thing is, is like I I if I am anything, I'm a pragmatist.

OK, if anybody had to describe me in my whole way of looking at things, be like, you know what? First and foremost, he's just a pragmatist about everything. Like if I had daughters and one came home and was crying, cause she said that she's not pretty enough. And then I'd say, whatever, you know,

through the eyes of caring about your daughter, you would see it in a, you know, the lens would be skewed, but I feel like I'd be going, well, you're not the prettiest girl in your class, Stacy. I don't know if my daughter would name Stacy, but you know, the lens would be skewed, but I feel like I'd be going, well, you're not the prettiest girl in your class, Stacy. I don't know if my daughter would name Stacy, but you know, like I, I think I'd just be, because if you were your girlfriend, I mean, it's the same thing as

somebody saying like John Moran and I'd go, he's awesome, but he's not the best point guard in the NBA. Like, let's not lose our minds about this right now. Um, so I don't think you're a realist. Yeah. I don't think I would have a girlfriend ever say like hey am i the hottest girl you've ever seen and i would go well that's ridiculous there's three billion people on your side of things three plus billion i think it's fun to say yes to that question like now what yeah you are i just what else that's my i couldn't do it it's like going on first take and make it up shit i couldn't sit there in relationship and go you are the single hottest person I've ever seen in my entire life. Because I'd be like, well, now you know I lie. So why would I do that? But he wasn't asked the question. He wasn't posed any of these things. He went out of his way to say, hey, you're not hot. You're beautiful, but you're not hot. That's grounds for going in in another direction honestly so did they say an age did she say an age of either of them or no she didn't do the stats she didn't do 64 i just

be interested if this was like somebody in their like early 20s or somebody in their like 30s i don't know because i think look i'm telling you her picture she's she's really cute i don't you know i'm not trying to she's young She looks like she's in her 20s. I don't know. There you go. She shouldn't. I'd say have the hard talk and keep your options open.

I'd say see if guys think you're hot. See what happens. I think this guy sucks. I think he sucks. And then who knows? I mean, what are we supposed to do here? Because what would we do?

What if the email had a picture and she was attached? You're like, oh my God. And then you'd be like, hey, just write it out. All right. I think we've covered this from every realistic possibility that we could. Okay. Mr. Relationship over here, helping everybody out on one email at a time. This is about an engagement ring, out on one email at a time. This is about an engagement ring, which I do actually have some experience in. All right, here we go. 31 male living in Northern California plan on popping the question next fall to my girlfriend of about four years. My main goal of the proposal is I have

to, the main goal of the proposal is to have it be a complete surprise. And because of that, I'm having somewhat of a difficult time figuring out what to do about the engagement ring. The topic came up randomly a few weeks ago, and she was talking about how she has no idea what she would even want whenever that time came. A diamond, alternative stone, something completely unique, basically no clue at all. Basically, her point was that she wouldn't know until she shopped around to get an idea exactly what she wanted. Totally fine, but that severely limits what I would be comfortable picking out. I know the common thing people do is go pick out a ring together before the engagement.

I hate that idea because it just feels weird to go buy a ring and then say, all right, now I'll wait for your proposal. Wink, wink. I'm sure someone would suggest just go shopping, but main goal for me is to be a surprise. So that's out of the question. Here's a couple of scenarios I thought of where I would want all of your guys' advice. Do I get a fake ring that's super cheap,

but still looks real enough to pass in photos for the time being no absolutely not absolutely not because she's gonna have a fake ring and then it's two weeks later she's like hey i'm engaged and every fucking person well female is gonna say let me see the ring and then their first impression of the ring is gonna be something she's not wearing or whatever so that's out do i have her sister's friends try to sneakily get a better idea what she wants to take a stab at getting something she might like and then make sure I'm getting from a place getting info from a place that will allow or getting the ring from a place that will allow an exchange if she ends up hating it? I've seen this as a recommended option. So it seems like it's a common thing. Okay.

He also said, I love you. Very. Yeah. All right. What to do here? Okay. Think of it, first of all, this way. All right.

Imagine if the tradition was if women had to buy us fancy watches. All right. If they had to get us Rolexes. Good luck right now. Secondary market. Okay. I mean, just imagine if the women listening to to this if in your 20s and you're with a guy that you really liked and it's been two or three years and you know he's the one but

tradition says that you have to spend like twenty thousand dollars on a rolex and oh by the way make it a fucking surprise uh and if it wasn't a rolex maybe it's an AP. Maybe it's a higher-end Panerai. You know, maybe it's something where... Not a Fossil. It's, yeah. No disrespect to any of the Fossil line or diesel. Had many a Fossil watch growing up. Yeah. Citizen?

It just... Tradition says this has to sting a little bit financially, and you have to stress about how are you going to pay for this. You know, again, Rolex is very in price, but secondary market, everything's nuts so let's say 20 grand for a decent one oh and by the way and this is for the guys she buys you that watch and you're like uh she got the yellow gold two-tone like what is this what are we under 40 millimeters on this like what is this okay and then you're supposed to wear it and be psyched

all the time. You wouldn't be. There'd always be this lingering thing if you didn't exactly get what you want. So I still think the most important thing is, like you were saying here, figuring out a way to get the thing she wants, but that you still want to make it a surprise. So I've thought about this email. I've thought about it.

Because, you know, I've had some experience with this, both having the ring and then also not having it. I think there's a way to do this. Okay. You said that she has, didn't he say friends and sisters in here? Okay. So that's good. You're going to marry somebody who has friends.

It's always, it's a different email topic. We'll get into maybe some other time. But I thought this out. All right, here's the plan. So whether it's the sisters, whether it's the friends, get yourself in a group situation where you end up in a mall, but a higher end mall. All right. Maybe there's a Tiffany's or something like that. Okay. And you have one of the girls who's her friend. Okay. You and her have already talked and the plan is is this and don't take too long with this because there's always a couple bad actors in the group so maybe keeping the group smaller is better because there's always gonna be somebody's just bad at this shit they get weird

and they have anxiety i remember like pledging and the brothers would be lying to us about something and then everybody always wanted to be involved in the thing that they were lying to us about and then the more people more more ingredients you threw in the fucking pot there'd be a couple guys would be like wait none of this is real this guy's the worst actor i've ever seen this this is bullshit so all right that part is important because you got to have some people you can trust here if if one of them is single i think you go you're at the counter you pretend you're having a miserable time they're like let's just go into Tiffany's, whatever. We just want to be in there.

Maybe she has a return. Maybe she's going to have something where she's like, hey, can I get this serviced or whatever? And then you slowly kind of magically mosey over to some of the engagement rings. You start looking at them. And it actually could be a cool moment for you and your future wife where you're looking at each other. Because clearly you've been together four years. You've talked about being together. You're looking at her.

She's looking at you. And you're just like, yeah, whatever. Like, look at them. You them you know i don't care maybe i'll just go in the other room like you know and it's not you being dismissive of getting engaged but now she is looking at stuff with her friend all right in a way that seems completely um organic you know yeah yeah it's yeah exactly perfect perfect a very organic setting where it just it kind of happened even though it's a bit more choreographed than that all right and in that time the friends the sisters whoever a couple of the other girls they start getting an eye of what she likes now i'm not saying then you have to go back two days later and ruin your down payment on a house at a on at tiffany's which is always a nice part of the tradition

it's like hey do you want somewhere to live no my friend has a hot ring and i want to also have an awesome ring it's like okay cool we're gonna rent for five more years like this fucking tradition is awesome um to tell your dad to get ready with that wedding payment right right so i think there is a way to do this um but you just have to have people that you can trust in the mix other than just saying all right this feels probably elaborate to some other than just saying hey to her friend can you go and shop for rings with her out of nowhere because if that happens or maybe she can pull the hey we ended up going to tiffany's because i want to get something serviced

you know a bracelet or whatever and uh or just any. I mean, it doesn't have to be there, but there, there can be a way that you could do this, whether you're a part of it or not a part of it. I know people are going to argue about that whole thing. I'm just telling you, there's a way to do it without it being so obvious where her friend is saying, Hey, let's go to the local jewelers and see what you would like for engagement rings. Cause then that's going to distract, uh, detractract i should say from the surprise element that you are so determined to pull off which i also kind of respect that you're trying to figure out that element i guess yeah i respect that too i always thought like i've i've ruined every christmas gift for a significant other for the last two three years um well it's only been one person so yeah i've ruined it for like every year

i'm always like i got you the Dyson thing. I hope you like it. Which I've heard. You got your girlfriend a vacuum in your 20s? No, no, no. First of all, I got the vacuum. That was a while ago. But I heard that the Dyson hair products

are like the PS5 for girls. And they all agree. Yes. Look at you, Kyle. You're right. That's right. Because as I said it out loud, I'm like, wait, he's probably talking about the hair dryer.

So that's on me. So I've ruined this stuff for you know three years and i'm fine with it but i always thought the real surprise was um where you do it like you're so don't you want to catch her off guard on the actual question like so what if she knows that she can't have the ring until you give it to her so who gives a fuck if she knows what it looks like i can see why you care about that but i think yeah i think the way if if that's if this is Mission Impossible and we're really trying to keep this thing under wraps, I think that's the way that you do it. Ryan's thing is is is spot on. I thought maybe, you know, there's a girl who's like way more her friend than she would ever be to keeping your secret and be like, oh,

my God, he wants wants me to help him. Just tell me what you want. Like, there's always a chance that you pick the wrong person. And she's just like, just like oh my god he he's asking me to find the ring so why don't you just tell me the ring you want and i'll make sure like she's acting like she's doing you a favor but she's actually more on her side no where she's just like great addition jig is up but um i think either way it's fine because you still are in the position you still have all the control as to um creating the scenario where you actually want to offer her the ring so i think that's probably the bigger part but again not married serenity you probably should have gone first yeah i mean i'll just i'll tell you what i did uh basically maddie and i went to uh sky

mall sky mall yep we went to no i'm just thinking how realistic you would have been you'd be like okay let's pick something out we're not i'm not talking about the money element of it just no no go ahead sorry my words of advice would be i didn't hear anything about what she wanted all you said was that she didn't know what she wanted in a ring right he didn't say how how she wanted to figure that out so you should probably put some feelers out there about whether or not she wants to go ring shopping or not, because I know it like it isn't like an amazing ring surprise

that everybody wants, but it's the most practical way to do it. And the way that we did it was kind of cool because you go to this place. It's an awesome place in Boston. I won't give many pub,

but it's hit me up. DM me if you really want to know. And, you know, you look at a bunch of different settings, a bunch of things, and you basically make a list of like things that she likes.

She didn't tell me exactly the ring that she wanted, but she's like, oh, I like the rose gold or I like this setting. I like this style of I like these couple styles of rocks. And then what you do is you buy the ring and you buy the diamond separate. They put it together and they mail it to you. So you're basically building this ring. So I felt like I had some say. It's basically build a bear for rings. Girls love build a bear. And Kyle's's right it really is more about the setting i think

than it is the ring like and and here's the thing if she doesn't like the ring and you just because you wanted to like you know go wild card and do this thing organically that's gonna be a bummer like it's gonna be a pretty big bummer when she looks at it's like oh my god you got me an oval ring like why would you why you know she never going to say that, but you know you'll see the disappointment in her face, and it's going to ruin the moment. So I would ask her if she wants to go ring shopping first, because again, it's not all about you in this situation.

I know that you have your plan, you want to do this, but the surprise is what Kyle said, the timing of it, where you do it, getting her family and friends involved, the Instagram post afterwards. All that stuff is still really cool, even if you don't completely um pick out the ring 100 by yourself uh yeah see i knew you were going to be so practical about it this guy cares about the surprise so we can't lose focus of what the email is he cares about the surprise now when he said

like i don't know if i go non-traditional or something else i would just get rid of all that stuff because i still think the diamond that you know was done right is going to be the winner in all this because unless you I mean you better get total clearance from somebody who's like actually she doesn't want a diamond she wants to go non-traditional stone she wants something completely she wants a black wedding ring too right yeah yeah you know so that like I don't know I don't know what to do with you on that one. And yeah, I agree,

Sruti, like you, I just knew that you and your wife would be super practical about it and not worry about the surprise, but this guy wants to pull off the surprise. So he's going to have to figure out some moves here on the chessboard. I just think about like your scenario. I'm like,

when is the last time like four or five people went to a mall together? Like it's just, it just, it seems sketchy to me to begin with. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I don't think there's any way to do this sort of naturally. Other than, you know, why don't you just,

why don't you just ask her, like just because you ask her a couple of questions about what she might like, doesn't mean that she knows what ring you're buying her. It's like, it's like when you're talking about like wedding dresses and stuff and you're like, oh, is it poofy or is it not poofy? Like you can give a couple of details

and still be surprised by what the bride looks like. So I would say it's okay to ask her a couple of questions and then make the guess from there. But don't go in blind. Just don't do that because it's a terrible idea. You don't think people go to the mall anymore? I don't. I think it matters where you live, probably. As groups of people.

Upper echelon, maybe, though. I don't know. Can me a fucking mall run? I know you and Bushman loved your mall trips back in the day well we were west harvard we didn't have a lot of options we get to the point where bushman and i were going to the mall and not doing it just we might be like you just want to go to the mall like yeah let's go we walk around i'd already i'd already bought every sneaker i could have possibly bought. There was nothing at Nordstrom for me anymore. That Nordstrom didn't do it for me.

Although, Hoonish Jeweler. There you go. Ask them. There's a little shout out to those guys. So, they're back in Boston and in Connecticut. And New York. But, hey, look at this. Poughkeepsie Galleria.

Look at this. All right. So, we're giving them. I'm pretty sure. All right. Here's the deal. You're going to the poughkeepsie gallery of melting pot just kidding it's closed but just you know there's

a there's a there might be a fun exciting restaurant that you could be yeah why not a cheesecake you can't do a cheesecake thing and then kind of mosey over me like oh i have to return something and then you know it's one or two of our friends and then you kind of you know i don't know what your acting chops are but you can be like oh my god you guys are looking at rings okay okay ladies take it easy right and then you know you get a little info from them after they do a little window shopping and the the ruse is over and then it can be a great story you can tell at your rehearsal yeah somebody will tell that story for sure yeah like remember when we went ring shopping you didn't know you were going ring shopping and some other guy would

be like are these the only these are the only memories they have so i don't know man all right uh i don't know if we did anything well today the tool recap was good no i think we did I think we did. I think we did a good outside of the awkwardness of the first of the intro to the first email. I think the first email

we gave some good advice there. Yeah, look, I've been doing this a long time. It still throws us off because we want to when we get a female question, it's like we just don't want to come off as

we just all froze up. Yeah, we just, you know. Clearly be cool. Be cool. Yeah. Relax, dude be cool. Be cool. Yeah. Relax, dude. Relax. All right.

We'll be back on Friday. And we get a couple feelers out. But today was a lot of fun. Today was a lot of fun. I cannot emphasize how great that Wu-Tang book is. So I hope you enjoyed that interview as well. Talk to you Friday. Thank you.