The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Muhammad Ali Special, Part 2: With Sugar Ray Leonard and Bob Arum

Episode Date: August 24, 2021

In Part 2 of a two-part series, Ryen Russillo is joined by "Sugar" Ray Leonard to discuss working with Muhammad Ali's trainer, Angelo Dundee, "The Super Fight" between Leonard and Marvin Hagler, when fighters are reluctant to retire, the toll the sport of boxing takes on the body, and more (0:34). Then Ryen talks with legendary boxing promoter Bob Arum about his unusual beginnings in the boxing world, stories from Muhammad Ali's fights with Joe Frazier and George Foreman, dealing with the fallout of Ali's refusal to fight in the Vietnam War, the end of Ali's fighting career, and more (18:37). Host: Ryen Russillo Guests: "Sugar" Ray Leonard and Bob Arum Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is part two of our Muhammad Ali podcast, and we're going to pick it back up with Sugar Ray Leonard, who gets into working with Angelo Dundee a little on his career, bringing a full circle with the health scares for all fighters, and legendary promoter Bob Arum on his years with Muhammad Ali. What's your best memory of Dundee, who I always love in the Ali stories and how he seemed to be the one. I don't want to say he's the only one sugar ray but he felt like he always was thinking of ali first you know it was just he didn't want him fighting liston you know he was

like he's not ready he's not ready it felt like dundee in a very complicated business um always seemed to have kind of a simple-mindedness to it that was beneficial to the fighter if that's fair for me to say i mean that's kind of my my my observation of it removed you know the what's separated from my standpoint what separated um angelo dundee from most trainers is that he was so calm and collective and a lot a lot of stuff takes place in that corner. I mean, as far as, you know, you come back after a tough round, your trainer has to be calm and collected. And it can't be shouting and screaming. I mean, but then again, some fighters do need that. They want that.

They need to get pushed up and say, come on, come on. You're losing. Because Angelo said the perfect sound bite, you're blowing it, son. You're blowing it. He said just, but it was calm, right? It was calm. He said, great. You're blowing it, son.

You're blowing it. It was with the Tommy Hearns fight. The first Tommy Hearns fight, I should say. And, I mean, he said the right thing, and I knew exactly what he meant. And I went out there the next round and I did what I had to do. Is that your favorite corner story? Because I could follow up

like what else you got? Because I love this stuff, man. I'm glowing right now. I mean, that one, that moment sticks out in my mind. I mean, I can never forget that. I mean, you got to understand also, there's something like with fighters at certain levels, it's that intestinal fortitude that we

all have, but we all can't activate it. And again, when Angelo Dundee said, you're blowing it, son, you're blowing it, that thing activated. And I knew, I knew what had to be done. He didn't have to talk anymore. Angelo didn't have to say anything anymore. I knew what had to be done. He didn't have to talk anymore. Angelo didn't have to say anything anymore. I knew what he meant by those few words. Because I have you, I have to ask. I was 11 when you fought Hagler. And I want the younger listeners to understand that this is why I do love boxing so much. When there's that event, the world stops,

especially when you look back historically for some of the heavyweight fights and what you were able to do in your weight class with Hearns, with Hagler, with Duran. You made another weight class incredibly cool and just cycled through everyone. And that Hagler fight,

all of our parents, all of our dads were arguing and being like, why would Sugar Ray do this? Hagler's going to kill him. And then it was like, everybody had to figure out a place to go find to watch that fight. And then there were VHS tapes rolling around because some of us still hadn't seen it and I couldn't wait to see it. And then afterwards, everybody arguing in the driveway, like, oh, Hagler won, you know, Sugar Ray show, you know, he, he just worked the crowd and the judges fell for it and all this shit. I loved it, man.

It's a big, that fight is a big part of my childhood. And I wish fighting still had those moments where it felt like everybody kind of stopped and paid attention. I'm not sure if it's ever going to be that again, but give me the buildup to that. How did you feel about yourself going into that? Because most people thought you were nuts. No, and I understood them. And I would say I would have felt the same way because Marvin is no longer with us.

I got to give him all this due respect. But when I saw him fight John DeVece McGarvey, and I was like, I can beat Hagrid because if John DeVece McGarvey is out boxing, of John DeVece Mugabe is like, you know, out boxing. And he's because John DeVece is a slugger, but he was out boxing Hagler. I said, I can do better than that. And so when I announced that, I know before I announced the fight, I talked to my father-in-law, Dick. And I said, Dick, I'm going to fight Marvin Hagler. He said, son, can we talk? He said, he said, you passed your prime. You've only had one fight in five years. Marvin Hagler's

head is impervious to pain. I mean, here's a guy who hasn't also fight 11 years, consecutive years. He said, that man's going to kill you. I mean, he, my father-in-'ll say that. And so I kept it to myself. I just kept it to myself. But I was thinking about fighting Hacker Thing. But once I did make the announcement and things did come together, when you get into the ring, right, it's a different story, man. You know, you may look good in the gym, but when you get into that ring for the actual fight, it's a whole different dynamic. And I walk in the ring and I'm like, I'm a nervous wreck.

And I do a jab. I said, this stuff still works. I mean, really, it sounds comical, but it's not. Trust me, it is not. It took everything out of me. And also, it took everything out of him. When the final bout, did you think you won?

Were you like, no doubt? Or what was going through your head as soon as the fight went to the card? Good question, man. Because I actually, because I tend to choreograph the fight. I really, I see the fight, I make the fight happen. I take care of the strong points.

I shy away from the strong points and concentrate on the fight happen. I take care of the strong points. I shy away from the strong points and concentrate on the weak points. But I just felt that I did enough to be respectful. I wasn't thinking about did I win the fight because I won the fight by going the distance. Check it out. I won the fight by going the distance. I wanted to fight by going the distance. And then when I saw one of the officials saying, she said, you wanted to fight.

Before they announced it. And when I heard they say, and new. I mean, middleweight champ. I mean, words can't describe that feeling. And again, I mean, if giving back my title would bring Marvin Hagler back home, I would do it. I definitely would do it. I mean, it means the world to me. But I love and respect Marvin Hagler.

No question about it. Would you say of all your opponents, I don't know, I'm always a little cautious of what words I want to use with fighters because it's like, hey, are you scared of this guy? Were you ever fearful? Some of you guys are honest about it.

Some of you guys are just not afraid of anybody, but was Hagler the one or was it Hearns? Or was it Duran? Oh, God. I mean, they all had their own significance. You know what I mean? They all had their own significance. Duran, I mean? They all had their own significance.

Duran. I mean, first of all, Duran, who hits like a brick, but was better in the second fight than no match fight. Tommy Hearns. I mean, Tommy is a beast. Tommy is a freak of nature. Tall, blinky, and strong, and ambidextrous. I mean, really. Marvin is what he is. He's one of the best, if not the best, middleweights. They all have their own significance. They all have their own significance. Whenever I look at the Hearns-Hagler

fight, and I watch the Hearns left hand, when you know there's this weapon out there that can just end it like that, you know, like all the strategy, like how hard is it to keep yourself tuned physically and mentally to keep avoiding this one thing that you know can end it immediately? You know, that's one of my main, let's say, assets or ingredients. I have that thing.

I don't know what you call it. I don't think there's one word that can define it, but I can feel the punch come. I can now slip it. That's when I'm at my best. I'm 100%. The minute I kind of start thinking too much or stopping and moving,

because like they say, Ray, you lost the fight because you didn't fight like Tommy Hearns did against Hagler. Well, Tommy got knocked down. You can't fight Hagler that way. No one can. He's just too big. I mean, you just can't do that. That's a great point.

Hey, so after the Hagler fight in 87, now we're like, Oh, sugar rays, you know, what a way to go out. And you know,

there's nothing less permanent than a boxer's retirement. Um, you fought four more times from 88 to 91. And then, and this is kind of like bringing a full circle back to the ali thing you fought again in 1997 which i kind of was like i can't believe you fought 10 years after the haggler fight fighters like to fight but yet you started the interview by saying i yeah i didn't really want to do this what goes through your mind when you go six years

off yeah i'm in let's go back in why didn't you call me and say well you know what you should not you shouldn't go in there you should i thought you were you know you were at that stage of your career where the business side of it was what you were trying to do so i kind of understood the motivations behind it and again i don't i would never tell another guy like don't go make money you know it's it naturally when you're at that stage, it's business, it's economics, and what have you. And it's the lure of having your hands raised again, beating the odds. All those things come into play.

I mean, ego. I mean, whatever you say is included in that moment. Because all of a sudden, I'm out of the ring. And I'm not happy. I mean, just, I don't know. Am I productive? Extremely. I'm productive, yes.

I'm all those wonderful things. But something was missing that I could not define. And it was just boxing because I wanted to fight Hagler. It was like, I got to come back. And then after the Hagler fight, he said, ready? I said, that's it. I said, one fight. I remember saying, one fight, one fight only with Hagler. It was like, I got to come back. And then after the Hagler fight, I said, that's it. I remember saying, one fight, one fight only with Hagler.

But then I just, you know, I always feel like I win. I always feel there is a way to beat that guy. How much did the training for that Camacho fight, your 40th fight suck?

I mean, um, with Hector, I mean, Hector's my man. I mean, was my man. He,

uh, I love, we had great times together, you know, hanging out and everything. And, and I was sad by his loss. Um,

but I, I knew when I got in the ring and then, uh, Camacho said, I said, damn, that shit hurt. I mean, yeah, that jam hurt me. Because what was happening by then, to satisfy or cushion my mental blows and psychological blows, I would start drinking and came into cocaine.

It was back in the 80s when cocaine became something to get involved with. And I was going downhill and no one really told me but my really trustful friends. And they said, Ray, you know, you got to stop this, man. You're not going to just hurt yourself. You're going to hurt your family, hurt your friends, hurt your fans. And you know what? I stopped. I just stopped.

I cold turkey. I stopped doing cocaine. I couldn't stop the alcohol. I just stopped the cocaine. I just couldn't stop the alcohol. I just stopped the cocaine. I just couldn't stop the alcohol. Do you think, I always wonder, do you think it's something where, you know, everybody has their own makeup, right?

Everybody has their own things that, you know, that lead to the decisions they make. But when you're at the mountaintop in the way that you were, does the drug help fill that void? Is that what it is? Or is it just that you have access to it and you're around? Because your life is different than everybody else's life. And I always wonder about that and sort of the void of your careers are over at such younger ages or they're supposed to be over at some younger ages that you're,

you know, some people think it sounds like I'm being too sympathetic, but I would think that there's a void that you have that's impossible to fill that none of us ever trying to fill. You know what, that, that's what, that's a, that's what it is. I mean, there was a void in my life. Um, there was a time where I didn't feel that I was loved just because of who I was. I wasn't loved because I was straight. And everyone seemed like it was coming at me, how about this deal? How about that deal? How about this?

It was always superficial to me. No question about it, I had great friends. I mean, I have great friends. I mean, I have great friends. But I guess the people that I was around were always looking to do something or set something up or create something and everything. And I was just, I don't know, I was just sad. I just, I wasn't doing what I wanted to do, which was, you know, to compete, what I wanted to do, which was to compete, to box. I mean, most people say to me, it's crazy, man. If you have money, if you have fame, that's all you need. No. It gets to a point. I mean, we're still human. It gets to a point where it's that if you don't feel good about yourself,

and at that time, I wasn't feeling good about myself, I don't know what it was. Again, it's hard to define or articulate because I was so sad and I had this incredible one year. And we talk now. We're friends. But all those things were taking place.

And, you know, and my life was almost like going all the way down. And if it wasn't for my present wife, Bernadette, I wouldn't be here. Because she told me, let's say she told me the truth. She told me what she saw. She told me what she believed was going to happen eventually and i am where i am because i had good people and i have have good business people too i'm gonna try to bring this full circle here so if there is no connection then you know i'll i'll edit it out. But, you know, you become friends,

Muhammad Ali, and he's, he's watching you fight 10 years after Hagler. He's, he's watching some of the decisions that you're making. And at that point, you know, we're starting to learn medically about where he's heading. Was there ever a conversation? Do you guys ever talk about it? Cause I always imagine that fighters, you guys can talk to each other in a way that no one else can ever talk to you well we don't talk we don't convey we don't let that out it's it's an amazing thing and i wish i could put it in some order but something is inside of us that because again there's nothing greater than having your hands raised, beating the odds. That moment in time and history is just amazing. Until we are okay with ourselves, until we like ourselves a lot better, it's going to be a challenge. It's going to be a challenge.

it's going to be a challenge. It's going to be a challenge. And the thing about there's no one statement, there's no one sentence that's going to clarify what we're trying to grab. I want to end it there. That was awesome.

I don't want to take up more of your time. I really appreciate you opening it up and talking. So thank you. That was terrific. I don't want to take up more of your time. I really appreciate you opening it up and talking. So thank you. That was terrific. I hope you enjoyed it. You know, for years, I kept it inside. I used to keep

stuff inside of me. I wasn't happy or this or that. You know, it wasn't until I went to AA and I started talking about my life being sexually abused here, drinking this, being an alcoholic. I mean, all these things. Because I'm Sugar Ray Leonard, so I'm perfect.

Until I became humble, my life was so much better today. Never perfect. Nothing's perfect. But it's so much better today. Never perfect. Nothing's perfect, but it's so much better today. And I enjoy talking about this because when I talk to you, someone else is being helped. And I hope you know that one of the things that's cool about your life, even though you'd mentioned before, you know, struggling to, to like yourself, to love yourself, um, that you should have moments where you appreciate how much you meant to so many people, you know, you should, you should allow yourself to feel good about that instead of rejecting it, which I think you're probably at that place now. Cause it's, it can be a nice, cool feeling when you're like, you know what? I did mean a lot to a lot of people and I was inspiring and you should let yourself know that. When I hear that sentence, those words,

it makes me even stronger. Well, thank you. Okay, buddy. Hey, thanks a lot, man. Honestly, that was terrific. Thank you, Sugar Ray. Thanks, man. Take care. He's a legend. He's been around it all. The great Bob Arum joins us on the podcast to talk a little Muhammad Ali. How did you get started? I mean, I know the story and the law firm and all that, but what can you tell us a little bit more in depth on how you got started and started a long-term business and friendship with Muhammad?

Well, you know, I had never seen a boxing match at the time I met Muhammad, but I had got a reputation when I was in the U.S. Attorney's Office because under the guidance of Attorney General Robert Kennedy, I seized all of the funds from the first Patterson-Liston fight. And it was unbelievable. The funds from the box office and the funds from the gate, over $5 million. And that was back in 1961. So $5 million was a lot more then than it is now. It's still a good sum, but it was an incredible sum. And when I left the U.S. Attorney's Office in 65,

I had had a reputation, among other things, for handling that case and for a lot of other big cases I had in the U.S. Attorney's Office, tax cases. firm in New York, a company that was doing television for boxing retained us, really to retain me. And the first event they had was a Terrell Shavalo WBA championship because WBA had stripped Ali of his title because he had a rematch about something. And that fight, Terrell Chavalo from Toronto was not doing well. And the people who ran the company asked me if I had any suggestions. And this was 1965. And there had never been a black guy who had been a commentator on sports or news. So I said, let's get a black guy to be one of the, part of the

commentating team. They said, great idea, you get him. And I tried for Willie Mays without success. And I was then introduced. A lawyer from Manhasset, who had put Jim Brown into Syracuse, representative, said that Jim would be interested. He was still playing. It was his last year for the Cleveland Browns. And so I retained Jim for $500 to be part of the commentating team. And after, I remember they played Minnesota on Sunday. The fights then, the closed circuit fights, were on Monday and Tuesday because you could get to theaters on Monday. And so I got to know Jim when he came to Toronto.

We became, had a connection. He had me watch him commentate from the television truck like I knew something. And he said to me afterwards, you shouldn't be the lawyer for these people. You should be a promoter. And I said, Jim, I'm not interested in boxing. I've never even seen an event live. And besides, there's only one guy that means anything,

and that's Cassius Clay. And, you know, he's tied up. And Jim said, no, he's not tied up. I'll introduce you to Ali. And six weeks later, Jim called me and set up a meeting Six weeks later, Jim called me and set up a meeting at the New York Hilton, where I met Ali and Herbert Muhammad, who was his advisor. They flew me out to Chicago to meet the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. And lo and behold, I became Ali's lawyer and promoter. And the first fight that we were going to do was Ali and Ernie Terrell in Chicago.

And that's when Ali, in training, I got notice that his draft classification was changed from 1Y, because Ali then was really functionally illiterate to 1A. And that's when he said he wouldn't go in because he wouldn't fight to be a cock. And the shit hit the fan. And Daly got the Illinois Boxing Commission to cancel the fight, throw us out of Chicago. We got thrown out of the country. We ended up in Toronto. Terrell pulled out because fighters then were paid on a percentage and with all the turmoil going on, there wasn't going to be a lot of money.

And Shavalo stepped in and that was the first fight that I saw in person and promoted was Ali and Shavalo in March of 1966 for the heavyweight championship of the world. I was only going to do one fight,

really. One fight, maybe. Another fight. I had no interest in being a boxing promoter but look i can imagine after that first one you were like i'm good with this i don't want to do this again oh no what i said was that i thought that the treatment of ali was so horrendous that i wasn't going to run for the hills, that I was going to stay with him. And so it ended up, it became my life work in boxing.

But that wasn't what I had envisioned when I became his lawyer and promoter back in 65. By the way, you had told the story, Jim Brown wanted to fight him, right? Well, that was later, because after the Shavalo fight, it was going to be tough to schedule Ali back in the United States.

So we arranged for him to fight Henry Cooper, defend his title against Cooper, in the old Arsenal grounds. And then another English promoter, Jack Solomon, had Ali agree after he beat Cooper to fight London, Brian London, also in England. And Ali was staying at the Marble Arch Hotel in London and would train, run in the morning at Hyde Park, a big expanse in London without a running track and everything. And Jim, of all things, was making his first movie, which was The Dirty Dozen, in London. And he had a pretty good role in there.

And that's when he said to me, Bob, he said, look, there's a way we can make a lot of money. Why don't you talk to Ali and arrange for Ali to fight me for the heavyweight championship of the world? And so I naively went to Ali and I said, Ali, Jim, talk to me. He thinks we'd make a lot of money

and he wants for me to arrange a fight with you. He said, okay, bring him to the park on Sunday because he wasn't shooting on Sunday. And I'll talk to him and we'll see. and I'll talk to him and we'll see. So Jim comes on Sunday, and Ali says to him, Jim, do you think you can compete with me in the boxing ring? And Jim says, well, I don't know about competing necessarily with you, but I put up a good fight because I can beat up everybody in the NFL, you know, and I'm this and I'm that. And he said, okay, Jim.

And he put up your mitts. He said, now try to hit me. Try to hit me. Don't hesitate. Throw your best punches. And Jim was a great athlete. He's throwing punches you can't hit. And finally Ali looks at him

with the big eyes and then with his open hand slaps him like 20 times in the face and Jim was convinced that it wasn't a match. You meeting Ali and being around this tumultuous point in his life

where now most of the country hates him. He was this heavyweight fighter that looks like he's got a chance to be one of the greatest. I know he was calling himself the greatest. He's with Elijah Muhammad. He's split from Malcolm X. How did you get into this group that I would think, how does Elijah Muhammad sit down with a Bob Arum?

How does Herbert Muhammad, John Ali, how do these guys sit down and trust you? Was it because Ali liked you? No. Well, why was Ali liked me? But I got along with these people. I remember I was a Brooklyn guy, and I didn't care what color anybody was. I could get along with these people. I remember I was a Brooklyn guy and I didn't care what color anybody was.

You know, I can get along with most people. And instinctively I got along with them because, I mean, for example, when I met Elijah Muhammad, he started talking business and he was very, very smart. And then because he had people around him and he felt he had to put on a show, his eyes glazed over and he went on for about 15 minutes about blue-eyed devils coming down in spaceships.

But I realized immediately that he was putting on an act and he was a smart guy. So I waited for that to be over. And then we talked business again. And, you know, people are people. And I never had any problem dealing with Elijah Muhammad and his organization. And really, I must say, they had my back. In other words, nobody ever threatened me.

Nobody dared threaten me. I got along with them, but even though I got along with them, thanks to Jim, I was introduced to Martin Luther King, Jesse Jackson. I knew all of them. Now Malcolm, I didn't know because Malcolm had been murdered before I met

Ali. And I'll tell you a funny story. One of the people that came into Mainbout, which was the company we formed to promote Ali, who was assigned by Elijah Muhammad, was a guy named John Ali. And John apparently had been the secretary of the nation of Islam. And he was the guy with the look, you know, try to look tough and he'd stare at you,

that kind of thing. But I got along nicely with him. But after we made the deal, I came back to New York and the assistant district attorney in the state prosecutor's office called me, and he said, are you crazy? I said, why?

He said, you know who was in your company? Is John Alley? I said, yeah, I know. I mean, he's an okay guy. He's an okay guy. He is the guy that we believe arranged for the murder of Malcolm X. And that was his reward to come into the boxing business. Now,

if it's true or not true, I don't know, but that's what I was told. So it's safe to assume, Bob, you never brought it up with John. Yo, I asked him.

You asked him. You did. What did you him what happened he denied that he had any involvement but of course I did I mean I lived with these guys I mean we went to fights together

I became friendly with them with Herbert Muhammad with John Ali so why wouldn't I tell him what the assistant district attorney had told him? All right, fair. The point is that you cannot rely on the reputation that other people have given an organization or the people in the organization. or the people in the organization.

The impression of the then nation of Islam, which is not the same as Farrakhan's nation of Islam, I want to point out. There was a schism there and so forth, which I can explain. But again, people were saying, it's not safe, you can't deal with them, you can't be with them, and so forth. And if you're a discerning person and you don't listen to people who really know nothing, you can judge for yourself what kind of people you're dealing with. And most, not all, but most of the people from that organization that I dealt with were good, honorable people. Okay, so that actually leads into this perfectly because when I've read anything about the contractual part of this stuff for fighters,

I mean, we know historically it's been very one-sided. And then when you looked at Herbert's management cut and then on top of everything else, how do deals compare, the financial deals for fighters then at Ali's peak, how do they compare then to what they are now? Well, what happened was when I first got into the business. Fighters were paid essentially on a percentage. 40% to the champion, 20% for the challenger, 40% for the promoter, out of which he paid the expenses. So when I made the deal with Ali and Herbert Muhammad,

I changed it to 50% for the champion, 20% for the challenger, 30% for the promoter, and gave them 50% of the promoter's action. 50% of the promoter's action. So I shifted a lot of it. In other words, the promoter, the real promoter, was getting a much smaller percent. But again, there were no crazy guarantees. It was all on percent.

And then Ali couldn't fight for three and a half years. And then when he came back and he fought Bonavina in Madison Square Garden, he was still on a percent, same deal. And then a guy from California came in, the late Jerry Perenchio. And he said, this is ridiculous. He said, no more percentages. And he offered each fighter, Ali and Fraser, two and a half million dollars for the fight. And everybody thought he was crazy because at that time on closed circuit, you charged $5 in bad areas and $10 in more affluent areas to watch the closed circuit. When Perenchio came in, he said, this is such a big fight. He had one price, $25. So that changed all of the math. And the fact that everybody thought he was going to blow his brains out, putting up $2.5 million to each fighter. He had about $2 million or $3 million in expenses.

And they took in over $18 million. And that started Jerry's career. He had a partner, Jack Kent Cook, who owned the Lakers and the Forum. And that was the biggest stake that Perenchio had gotten up to now. And when he died a few years ago after owning Univision, he died a multi-billionaire. So at this stage, we have the second part of Ali's return. He loses the decision to Frazier in the fight that you just mentioned. So leading up to, say, Foreman, because he obviously started fighting at such a prolific rate, but

leading up to Foreman, you still had a management part with Ali on that side of it, even if that wasn't necessarily your promotion, correct? No. Okay. Explain that to me then. No. Herbert became the manager. I became the promoter and after he lost to uh we realized that ali hadn't been active for three and a half years and

most people still considered ali the heavyweight champion of the world. So we decided we would do a fight for Ali every six to eight weeks, one fight after another, all over the world. And Fraser, who had this old-time manager, Yank Durham, he was the heavyweight champion, so he could fight some non-entities and fight infrequently. He fought Zuzki, not Zuzki, Summit, two guys, Stander and somebody else.

That meant nothing. And so if you ask a person after that Ali-Fraser fight two years later, if you ask that person who the heavyweight champion was, they would say Ali, even though Fraser was the champion. And Fraser was forced by the organization because he fought nobody to fight Foreman. And Foreman, as you know, knocked him out. And that ultimately led to Ali fighting Foreman in Zaire, where Ali recaptured the heavyweight title. But at that point, I had done all of Ali's fights. And then Herbert came to me and he said, this crazy Don King was offering Ali five and a half million dollars to fight Foreman, which was another insane number.

And I said, how much is it going to give you up front? He says, 500,000. I said, take it because it's the easiest 500,000 you're going to make. And Herbert took it, and King looked into a deal in Europe where he got this crook who was the president of Zaire Mabutu to finance the fight. And one of the first things they did was to ban me from Zaire. So people said, hey, how can they ban you from going to Zaire?

That's not right. And I said, well, you go and challenge it. I ain't going to go challenge it. What a great, what a great. And by the way, every story that I've ever read about that experience, you made the right decision. Give me, give me something, Bob, about you and Muhammad that maybe people don't know i you know obviously want to ask about the thrill of manila as well because i know that was uh um that was the fight that you've talked about but what are the stories that you share with your close friends and family about muhammad when they ask you one of the funniest stories this was years later when they were raising funds, Ali and John White Brown, who had been the governor of Kentucky, I was living in Las Vegas. And Ali and Lonnie came to the house.

We had a lot of people there to raise had, you know, to raise money. And so John White Brown spoke, and then I spoke about how great Ali was. And then I don't know what the hell got into me, but maybe I had too much to drink. the story that I guess Ali had not been aware of based on the what happened in the Ali Shavalo. Now I'll tell you that story I'll tell you how Ali reacted. And Shavalo was managed by two brothers, Irving and A.B. Ungerman, who's main business was a turkey and chicken processing plant in Toronto. So they asked me the morning of the fight. I remember I had never seen a fight. They asked me the morning of the fight if I would have breakfast with them. And I said, sure. So they said to me, when we sat down and ordered our bagels and lox. They said to me, look, we're three Jewish guys.

What are you doing with these Muslims? I said, what are you talking about? They said, well, tell us how George can beat Ali. Now, remember, I'd never seen a fight. So I was a wise guy. I said, the only way George can beat Ali is to hit him in the balls and keep hitting him in the balls until he can't walk, and maybe you can win the fight.

I was facetious. But these guys thought I was telling them the truth. They told that to George. So now, watch that fight. Every round, boom, George hits him in the balls. Every round. Finally, after 15 rounds, because they poured 15 rounds in those days, Ali has to be helped from the ring. He wins every round, but he has to be help from the ring to get to the dressing room. So he's laying on

the bed in the dressing room, and a guy comes in who I'd never seen before, and he said, this was a disgrace. This was the worst thing in the history of boxing.

So I get up. I say, get the fuck out of here. It was Howard Cosell. That was when I met Howard Cosell. Anyway, I tell that story at the fundraiser for Ali in my house. And Ali hadn't heard it before. He made believe that he was so angry with me. He got up and he tried to punch me, but he was kidding around.

But again, we had a great time together. I mean, I can tell. So it really changed my life because what a great human being Ali was. Because what a great human being Ali was. Another time, I recall, I was in London when, you know, this Jim Brown thing happened, when he was fighting Brian London. very wealthy Pakistani Muslim invited us to his mansion to have a Sunday dinner. And I said, yeah. And they said, and I want you to come with us. So it was a great honor. So Ali, Herbert and myself, we have a driver and we set off for this guy's house. And we're in a very low class area in London,

small homes and so forth. So I'm telling the driver, hey, you're taking us in the wrong direction, right? I'm looking for a place that has big mansions. And the driver says, look, I know where I am. I have to take a test. I know where the address is. This is where the address is.

Pulls up to this house, small out. The guy gets out of the house to greet us. Takes us in. It obviously hits Khan, Ali, and Herbert. And he had a piano, I remember, in the house, and a table that didn't have enough seats for us to sit around. We had to take turns eating. And Ali is playing the piano, you know, doing magic tricks. And finally, after three hours, we leave. So I said to Ali, you're an idiot. Look what a fool this guy made

out of you. You know, he had no money. He got you to go to the house. He says, Bob, I gave him an experience that he will never forget. And it made my day. That was something. That was something. He had been conned into going to this guy's house, but he had performed as if the guy was the wealthiest Muslim in London. And he truly, the guy probably, if he's still alive, still remembers that day. And maybe the girl that he was hoping, his daughter hoping that Ali would fall in love with is probably still alive

and she would remember. Yeah. That sounds, that sounds like everything, you know, you ever read about him is your favorite fight the third one with Frazier in Manila

that's one of the great fights of all time the only fight that I think was better because it was most intense was Hagler's but certainly Ali Frazier in Manila was Hagler-Hearns. But certainly,

Ali Fraser in Manila was, I'll never forget that. I mean, first Ali was winning, then Fraser came on, it looked like he was going to knock Ali out. Then Ali, in the teen rounds, this was 15 rounds, rallied, shut both of Fraser's eyes. Fraser couldn't come out for the 15th round. But it was the most unbelievable fight that one could see.

And remember, it was in Manila, before it was renovated, Manila in the, before it was renovated, Paraneta Coliseum, a dark, dingy building. And because of the difference in time, the fight went on early, in the early morning in Manila to coincide with prime time in the United States. It went on about 10, 11 in the morning. And after that fight, when we had seen the most unbelievable fight,

we went out and the sun in Manila was so bright you couldn't see. It was almost like we were on a different planet. I mean, it was the most unbelievable experience that I've had, and I remember it vividly how I had to shield my eyes because the sun was blinding me and I was in such a state of uh uh of shock and uh exhaustion after seeing these two guys battle for 14 rounds how was the conversation or how did they go with with you and Muhammad towards the end of the career when you know he's talking about retiring almost after every single fight of the last 10 plus.

And we know he's not going to retire. We know what fighters do. But then the last handful of fights, what were those conversations like with you and Muhammad? Well, after the Ali-Fraser fight, it looked to me like Ali should never fight again. But he went on and I remember about a year later

fought Ken Norton for the third time in the Yankee Stadium, the old Yankee Stadium in New York. And that was a very, very close fight. But it was clear that Ali had lost

almost everything. And although he got the decision, a lot of people thought that Norton won the fight. They thought Ali won the fight. But he was really finished at that time. So finished that Ferdy told him, Ferdy Pacheco told them to hang him up. Ali

wouldn't listen. Ferdy then quit being his doctor. In 1977, Ali asked me to promote an easy fight for him. And the easiest guy I could get was Leon Spinks, who had won an Olympic medal at light heavyweight in the previous Olympics in Montreal. And it was a joke that Ali and Spinks, and of course, as we know, in February of 78, Spinks beat Ali. And when I went into the dressing room after the fight, Ali said, look, I promise you, I want one more fight, win or lose. I want to fight Spinks again. I will retire. And so I made that fight, and that fight took place in New Orleans,

and Ali won the fight, and he agreed to retire, and we did a WBA heavyweight tournament. to retire. And we did a WBA heavyweight tournament. And then a couple of years later, Don King convinced him to come back and fight Larry Holmes. I mean, that certainly didn't help Ali's health. But I would think that Ali's real career

ended or should have ended with the Fraser fight in the Dillard. Hey, look, I know you've got a lot going on today. Keep doing great stuff, and hopefully we'll get to check in with you again soon. All right? Thanks, Bob. Hey, good talking to you. I had a lot of fun. I want to thank everybody for their involvement in this

and making sure we had some guests. And check out the Ali book by Jonathan Ige if you want more. Coming up later this week, we'll have our first look at the college football season with a big college football preview. Make sure you subscribe so you don't miss anything. Thank you.