The Ryen Russillo Podcast - NBA Finals Pick and Draymond’s Uncertain Future With Anthony Slater, Plus the Rise of Hip-Hop With Jonathan Abrams

Episode Date: October 19, 2022

Russillo shares some observations from Celtics-76ers and Warriors-Lakers, including his Finals pick (0:35). Then Ryen talks with The Athletic's Anthony Slater about the Warriors' developing young core, Draymond Green, and more (13:02). Next Ryen is joined by author Jonathan Abrams to discuss his new book, 'The Come Up: An Oral History of the Rise of Hip-Hop' (39:16). Finally Ryen, Ceruti, and Kyle hand out their Worst Take (1:12:32) before answering some listener-submitted Life Advice questions (1:21:30). Host: Ryen Russillo Guests: Anthony Slater and Jonathan Abrams Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

our first tales from the couch little nba preview and some other nuggets picked up we're going to talk golden state warriors with anthony slater the history of hip-hop all right an oral history the rise of hip-hop, the come-up. Jonathan Abrams, his new book is out today. We'll talk with the author and worst take and a new Kyle fact during Life Advice. Tales from the Couch, the 2022-23 edition. We're going to get started. Okay, my NBA Finals picks.

I'm going Warriors over the Celtics rematch, calling it right now. Over five years, we had three teams in the NBA finals. We've had more shake-up. I'm going to get to how many teams are eligible for this, or at least my exercise is usually, if this team won the NBA finals, would you be really surprised? Maybe a little surprised or really surprised, and that's what we'll do a little bit later.

Am I doing it just because both teams won last night, opening night? No. I'm not. If you want to tell me Milwaukee's absolutely coming out of the East, I'd probably agree with you. It always makes me think back to what if KD hit that shot? How different would things be? Would Bud have been fired? People

thought he was going to get fired during the playoffs. What if KD hit that shot? How different would it be for Katie and Brooklyn? Would they have won that year? I don't know about that. Maybe. They just didn't have enough help around them.

Does that mean maybe the Bucks win last year because they're more motivated by coming up short again? Would there have been more questions if they didn't win last year? It's like, hey, this Giannis guy puts up a lot of stats, but is he really a winner? Which are sort of the rules when you consider the best player or one of the five best players. As soon as you don't win after year six or seven, we're like, what's wrong with this guy? And sometimes the answer is that something

is wrong with him, but there's nothing wrong with Giannis. So, little aside there. Do I think it's a repeat? Maybe. We'll get to it. The East has three teams, maybe four. Philly's going to be good. Despite the loss last night, we'll get to them in a second here. I still think Philly's going to be really good.

You've got Philly, you've got Boston, you've got Milwaukee. I'll allow Brooklyn, but I'd like to at least see them play together for, I don't know, a few games. Is that okay? In the West, do we have five? Golden State, Denver. People are really, really on the Clippers. I'm not saying they're not going to be good.

I'm just surprised. I wouldn't pick them because it's a little bit like Brooklyn with the uncertainty. Memphis, would you allow Phoenix? I think we should allow it. I know nobody believes it, but at the end of this whole thing, the redemptive arc, Phoenix wins. They figured it out. What happened last?

You know, like, is it possible? I think it is possible. So we could say eight teams, which is a long list for this league. Again, we had Golden State, Cleveland, back and forth there for a while with a little sampling of Toronto in 2019. So, I don't know, is it nine teams?

New Orleans feels a little too soon. Dallas, Luka would have to do something special, but you know my rule. I don't love the heliocentric teams around one guy, despite whoever that guy is. So yeah, that's a lot for this league. So Boston's going to be good. It reminds me a little of Toronto and what dawned on me watching Toronto in 2019. Although, let's face it, Golden State's healthy. They don't have that championship, but it was still a very good team for the sense that they had a lot of shot creators, shot decision makers. I should say ball decision makers. Sometimes we like to sound cool and make these terms more complicated than they are. Scoring the basketball is one of the dumbest fucking things anyone has ever invented to say in any observation of sports.

Toronto had Kawhi, they had Siakam, they had Lowry, Van Vliet, Green, Norm, Norman Powell, Abaka. Not terrible if you had to take a dribbler too. I'm not saying he would ISO anybody. And Gasol, who wasn't a dribbler but was a terrific passer. That's a lot of guys that are comfortable with the basketball in their hands.

Some have suggested that's actually what Oklahoma City is trying to do. Not to copy the Toronto model from 2019, but put together a roster of length and players that can handle and make decisions. So people that are okay making decisions, a lot of length, we'll see. Checks a lot of boxes so far. But when I look at what Boston could throw at you if they want to go small,

I don't know if they'll do the hyper small Jalen Brown, Tatum, Brogdon, Smart, Derek White thing, but that's five guys that are good with the basketball. small Jalen Brown, Tatum, Brogdon, Smart, Derek White thing. But that's five guys that are good with the basketball. I'm worried, obviously, Horford would be six. Grant is such a good shooter. You're not going to have him dribble and break anybody down. But you see what I'm saying? They can throw a lot of different people that can attack you.

Dribble, drive, shoot. Dribble, drive, pass. That's impressive. And if you can pull it off in putting your team together that way, it's a huge, huge plus because it usually means, hey, can I get out of this if I have to? The other problem, though, we have for Boston, no Rob Williams last night. Even though they lost, or excuse me, I guess I should put it that way. Even though Philly lost to Boston last night, I still think I would like Philly against Boston without Rob Williams long term. I think the Celtics reb way, even though Philly lost to Boston last night. I still think I would like Philly against Boston without Rob Williams long term. I think the Celtics rebounding, even though they're plus five last night,

will be a problem for them while they wait on Williams' return. Noah Vonlay in a game, he looks in shape. I'll give him that. I thought he fought hard defensively against MB, but he don't really have much of a chance. And Philly's deep. Philly's pretty deep as well. I mean, Thibel was kind of an afterthought in the rotation for last night.

Max, he got it going late. And Harden looks a lot better. He does look a lot better, despite me despising the falling forward into the defender to get the free throws. Although the Blake foul was just a stupid foul on Blake. So, I feel good about Philly. I feel good about Boston. The only thing with Philly, I know they had 29 points in the fourth quarter. There were touches

of getting a little stagnant there offensively, even if they got buckets from it, because they did. They scored again 29 points. There were some stretches where the game was still in the balance. It's like, are you guys kind of going back to your default things that you're more comfortable with? But it is good to see a healthy Harden

if you're a Sixers fan, although I am fucking pumped that we're almost on two years of hamstring updates. All right. What else? Let's talk Warriors on their side of things here for a second. They're going to be better. I've been saying it all summer. I don't think this is that big of a take

at all. A couple of the young guys are going to be better. Poole's going to be better. Clay's going to be better. And they did a going to be better. Klay's going to be better. And they did a really good job keeping as much of this as they could. Okay, sorry they didn't pay Gary Payton $9 million a year. But they kept Looney. And now their biggest weakness, if they had a weakness

last season, because they did. I mean, you still want to title and have weaknesses with depth along the front line. If Wiseman's playing all season, that's a huge plus. He doesn't have to be an all-star. You can already see what the role is. High screens, rim run, get there. He's a ton to deal with. I'd still say it's even a little choppy offensively for him, but it was the first game back. I've not been told, okay, look out, this guy's going to take the world over, but I've been hearing really good things about him. I know the start of his career is not what you want.

39 games his rookie year, looked lost, but again, he's allowed, you know, he's in a situation where he's actually not allowed to be lost. If he were playing for Minnesota and he were healthy, well, I shouldn't say Minnesota anymore because they have a good front line. If he were playing for Sacramento, bad Sacramento, not new and improved Sacramento this season because we've been on that

over here, but if Wiseman were on just a bad team or he's allowed to just do whatever the fuck he wants, he'd score 15 points, not even trying. But it was defense and it was the offensive role. They're going to be a better basketball team. Remember, the Warriors last season had a lot of injuries and gaps of not having people. They were 27-6 and 41-13 at some point. They finished 53-29, which is, I think, if they had finished with 60 wins and won

a title, that people would be buying into the idea that they were like, clearly, they might actually just be clearly the team in the West, and we should stop fucking pretending that it's five teams. That might be true as well. Not sure yet. Need more data. Let's talk a little LA. I was texting with a front office guy last night and he goes,

who's the Lakers third best player? I went, wow. I was like, do I say Kendrick Nunn? That seems wrong. It seems like you shouldn't say that. Do I say Patrick Beverly? I don't really want to say that either. We knew this was going to be a struggle. When you actually see it and you go, okay, let's look at the minute breakdowns here. Pat Beverly, he only played 25 minutes because he had five fouls. Lonnie Walker, which I've never quite understood,

started. That's going to be tough. Is the backcourt actually Beverly and Walker? Matt Ryan, who I think they signed so Austin Reeves would have somebody to hang out with. When you Gabriel, you know, this is there's some blowout minutes in here, too. The point is this. And I like Toscano Anderson. I like Reeves.

They're they're number three to 10. Stack that up against some other just decent teams, not even the best teams. That gets a little thin. If there's a positive from all of this, it's that 80 looked like Anthony Davis again. against some other just decent teams, not even the best teams, that gets a little thin. If there's a positive from all of this, it's that 80 looked like Anthony Davis again. LeBron's going to get his numbers. I think you're going to see him slow down.

I saw it last year a little bit. People told me I was nuts. He's supposed to slow down, by the way. We're 20 years into this whole thing, but he's still so good and so smart. He's still going to get his numbers, but I think you're going to see him have long stretches. This guy can coast and get 30. It's

fucking crazy. Let's talk a little Westbrook. Barkley said trade him at halftime. He said he wasn't happy. He had no joy. Well, you don't just trade him because Westbrook's bummed out. Westbrook obviously is going to pick up the option. Speaking of options, Westbrook looked a lot happier in the video where he cranked it out that day

in his car singing along when he picked up his $47 million player option, which is the right thing to do. Never blame him. But when you kind of are like, fuck everybody, here's a video of me picking this up. You can't then also get mad when people give you shit. Reggie Miller, not going to give him shit, though. We're going to save that one for worst take a little bit. Because as I've said throughout throughout and it's happened numerous times people default to hey Westbrook still got you 18 7 and 7 18 7 and 7 and then Westbrook after the

game said that Darvin Ham bringing him off the bench in the last preseason game absolutely led to his hamstring strain I thought this was all Vogel's fault don't worry folks we're going to be here all season speaking of disrespect we are keeping track of it this season. The disrespect all stars. Who is the most disrespected? Tyler Hero, out of the gates, first teamer. Last year, he said he was in the same conversation with Luka, Trey,

and Ja. He was asked to follow up before the season started. He doubled down and said, quote, don't feel any different. My numbers back it up with those guys. PER career for those other players. Luka, 24. Trey, 22. Jod, 19.

Tyler Hero, 14.3. The numbers do not back it up. We will be keeping track of disrespect. Another thing we noticed last season, speaking of the disrespect play, is the what was me, how come nobody wants to vote me for all of these awards bullshit campaigning

that we saw at the end of last season. It's been worse never been worse than it was last year everybody was the most depressed guy ever trying to figure out how he's gonna win jonathan kaminga in a preview that i saw was talking about maybe winning defensive player of the year but he's like you know i'm not gonna win defensive player of the year i was like dude the first rule of defensive player of the year club is that you have to say that you're a Defensive Player of the Year. Bam still can't figure out how he didn't fucking win it despite only playing 56 games. I love Bam. I would have voted for him.

He played 56 games. The other guys played more. Little contract update. Who needs a Cam Reddish isn't getting an extension tweet? I loved him. I couldn't get enough of him. I'm like, please update me on the Cam Reddish extension situation. I forgot what fucking team he was on for like a week.

He did not get an extension. DeAndre Hunter did. Four years, $90 million, maybe $95 million with some unlikely bonuses based on whatever you've read to this point. I have no idea if DeAndre Hunter is a great pickup or this is awful. He's already missed 82 games. I know what he's supposed to be. I know he had some decent games there against the Heat,

but that contract, and I'm going to default because I feel like Atlanta's made a lot more. They have. Atlanta has been better than they've been bad at it. Everybody makes mistakes. They've been a good front've been bad at it. Everybody makes mistakes. They've been a good front office here for multiple years. I actually really kind of like what they're putting together there. I'm not even knocking the Hunter contract.

It's just when the number came out, it was one of those deals where you're like, I have no idea where you land on this. And this is an absolute leap of faith for a guy that's been pretty inconsistent. I know what he's supposed to be if he's pretty good. But you know what? That's far more important than Cam Reddish's numbers. So there you go. Warriors over Celts.

I said it. Repeat. Doing it again. Embiid MVP? Okay, done. Paolo Rookie of the Year. Coach of the Year, Joe Mazzulla? That's your preview.

Anthony Slater covers the Warriors for the Athletic. He has joined us numerous times before, and I picked him to repeat earlier today on the podcast, and we're going to ask what he thinks. What's up, man? Good to see you. Good to see you, too. I feel like the Bucs have become the popular pick.

Do you feel like... Are you bucking the trend there? Wow. Well, pun. I have no problem with anybody picking the Bucs. It might be the right answer. It might be the right answer.

I actually don't like picking a rematch. Sometimes I try to be a little different, but I also picked A&M to be in the playoff to try to be a little different. That's not working out for me.

So when I look at the Celtics' possibilities as I touch them in the open, I really like the way they're going to be attacking teams offensively. And we know the defensive track record's there. No Rob Williams. I really like the way they're going to be attack teams offensively, and we know the defensive track records there. No Rob Williams. I feel a little bit

different about it, but my point all summer has been off of Golden State is this team, by default, is just better than who they were last year. I actually think the record for last season is a little misleading that people kind of forget. I brought up two different times where it felt like this team was clearly

on a roll. Look, you're around them every single day. How do you feel about them going into the year? Yeah, I mean, the record to me last year is a lot misleading where their starting lineup played zero regular season minutes together. And then they were the best five-man lineup in the playoffs. They were plus 26 together in the finals.

And even talking to the young guys when they got there to camp, all the young guys had been around for a month, like scrimmaging and Wiseman's trying to get right and DiVincenzo's in the building and they're feeling really good together. And then day one practice, the veterans show up and just crush them.

And they're like, what is this? We've been feeling so good. And it's just like talking to DiVincenzo about it. He was a little frustrated. Practice day one, practice day two. But then they go and play the Wizards in the first preseason game and he's like, Oh yeah, I forgot. We're playing

probably the best five-man unit in the NBA right now, in our building. And I think that matters. They found something in the playoffs. Wiggins emerged into who I think he might be this year, which is an aggressive rebounder. And Looney has taken a step in the playoffs. And the pool you saw last night is the pool you saw in the playoffs.

That's not necessarily the pool you saw in December of last year. So their main core six guys are better than they were in the regular season. And that's not even getting to the extended depth, which as you saw last night goes, they go 11 deep, truly 11 deep. You've talked about this and it's a really good piece because it doesn't happen very often and you can't even plan for it.

But that is the having the two different timelines where you have a core of guys with multiple championships that expect to win another championship while you're developing this other younger core. You could argue the Spurs have done it a few different times, but, but not like, I don't know that I'd have to go back and look at all the Ross. I remember there was a pacer stretch where I was like,

are they kind of doing something like this? But nobody does it. Nobody goes, Hey, in five years, we would like to have a championship core, but then also to be developing guys,

you know, just out of high school to go along with this. So this is very unique. What's the most important observation that you can share with us about how they're trying to map this all out?

I think just kind of like the challenge of convincing these young guys, like you need to play bit roles that are like specified and they're winning, right? You need to be like a winning ninth man while also behind the scenes, like Jonathan Kaminga, to me,

I think he has the hardest of the jobs of the young guys. Like you want to be Paul George. It's theoretical when you're 25, you could be like you know that level of player i mean we'll see i'm not sure what how likely an outcome that is but i think we all believe like his dream of being an all-star wing in the mid prime of his career is realistic um but for now you need to be like a kind of a slasher who when you get the ball you move it which is not his instinct at all. And they're trying to teach him both things at once.

And if he does the other thing, he kind of ticks off the veterans. But at the same time, they spend a bunch of time behind the scenes trying to teach him to do those things. And it's just like, it's difficult. And then he looks across the league like Jalen Green, who he was teammates with for the Ignite. And he pins himself up against, right? And if we're being honest, probably thinks he's better than. How many shots per game is he going to take for Houston this year, happily?

And I think Kaminga's like, that could be kind of fun, but I also kind of have to do this job, which last night he plays 11 minutes. I think he's ready for a bigger role, but where is it on this team? Yeah, you've mentioned that when he starts to freelance a little bit, which is what he's been allowed to do at every level prior to this. When I watched the stuff before Ignite, I was like, okay, he's really big,

do whatever he wants, but what's the competition here? And then I was really pleasantly surprised by him. So I think it was like, whoa, what can this guy be? But then it's funny because I think the things that he does that are impressive are the things that don't fit where it's move the ball, reset, get yourself open, reset again. You know, the beauty of this warrior system,

I can't believe more people don't try to do it. Not everybody has their shooters or commitment or coaching, but just to constantly reposition yourself, play to the end of the shot clock as an offense. It's the epitome of everything that I'd want from a basketball team. And when Kaminga deviates and it's a fucking sick play that's really impressive to us, it's still outside of what they're trying to do. It's a tough ask because I'm telling you right now, a kid who's 20,

he could say he's about championships. He's about points and getting his contract. And then I'll worry about that when he's 27. That the way the league works yeah i remember there was a funny play last year it was uh it was clay's first game not his first actual game back but his first game where he was like uh-oh clay's on today like four or four in the first quarter and like you know what happens in warriors games with clay's on like every offensive possession is like angled to get him the ball as he's scattering around but kaminga was in the game and they kicked it to coming at the wing Klay's probably hit four threes on the last like six possessions and Klay's wide open like you know

ready for it right in front of the Warriors benches they're like waiting to erupt and Kaminga's like I'm lining this one up and like the three and they're like like no you you must understand that Klay Thompson gets the ball on this team in that situation uh and they're like like no you you must understand that clay thompson gets the ball on this team in that situation uh and it's something i remember them referencing last year but there there are a lot of moments like that but at the same time what they've come to love about him is like they think he could be like a monster individual defender and like they've envisioned switching lineups in the playoffs where you know they're switching everything against like memphis for, and he's a huge

part of that. He's switching on the jaw and he can guard like a Jaron Jackson, theoretically. But he has to commit to playing that winning type of basketball. But if he does, they think like, man, this guy could be a huge piece. And it is that balance of him having to understand

that. But I mean, also kind of trying to... You also do want to grow him to what he's going to be, right? Because three years from now, you want to hand some of the keys off to him. The guy I'm more interested in is Wiseman. I know what I had heard,

the rumblings about what to expect. I would say it's convincingly always been very positive with some reservation about who he ultimately becomes. What can you share with us about, you know, look, it was a nice little, he had nice minutes last night. Yeah. Give me your big picture, full scope of Wiseman.

Yeah, I mean, look, they brought in Nikola Jokic's coach before last season. And it was James Wiseman, very much related. I mean, that's why they hired him. Dejan Milojevic is his name from Serbia. Coach Jokic growing up. And he was waiting all last season to be able to teach him, really. And obviously, they did some individual stuff

behind the scenes. You can talk to him all year, but he just could not get on the court. And I remember going to Stockton because people forget. Wiseman played three G League games last year before his knee swelled up again and they shut him down. I remember talking to Dejan before that and he was like,

I want him to go out here tonight and make mistakes because then we can go back and discuss and get him essentially in a rhythm. Then the knee swelled up again and he couldn't. Meanwhile, you saw what Dejan did with Looney. I mean, weirdly, he's called Looney's game in a lot of ways. Looney's credited him with this rebounding explosion.

And finally, Wiseman gets the full Summer League and then plays all summer. He looked raw. He looked like he did as a rookie in Summer League, which had me, I would say, concerned. He's just not going to be ready to be a backup center um but then he played all summer they said he was in every single day you know uh for like six weeks playing pickup and to me when camp started i was talking to somebody within the team and they were like you know don't expect you know they don't

want to like blow it up like he's about to explode this season, but basically it was like, don't expect Mo Bamba out there either. This guy's still got a lot of stuff there. And he's shown it. I think at preseason, he had 20-10 in the first preseason game. He's seeing everything

better. He's being more patient as a rookie. If he got it in the mid-post, he was like, oh my god, I got the ball. I got to go to the rim. I got to take a shot, whatever. This year preseason and last night, it's more like he can get it in the midpost. He can watch people move around him. Sometimes he'll make a pass, but

everything is just being done more patiently. I thought he screened better last night. They were working him and pulling the pick and roll. So, yeah, I think he's in a good spot for what his role is going to be. Why did Draymond punch pool? I mean, in the moment, it was from what I understand and what I've always been told is it really was just like a whatever, like argument in a scrimmage game as far as like the inciting in that

moment was nothing grander than just a normal pick up game argument under the surface we all know is like the what I wrote about which is the transitioning from one era to the other and the idea that it seems to be kind of clear

to a lot of a lot involved that Draymond is the most vulnerable in this situation to to lose his grip and control of his standing within the Warriors right and um I'm I'm not trying to say that was like directly behind the punch but that is what has been bubbling up all summer I mean we wrote about it in the summer this contract situation that was coming up and where their priorities clearly were going. And that was to Poole. And now we've seen also to Andrew Wiggins. And that just kind of sits over the top of everything.

And he is losing some of his grip on really his standing within the Warriors. Okay, I want to get to his future. But before we do that, I want to just remind, you know, just talking out loud here. Like when I look at the Celtics situation, it's like, man, how are they going to handle this? He may do a thing.

We don't give athletes enough credit, and maybe it's just the way they're wired. I think a lot of times they don't give a shit. They really don't. Like, hey, we know Joe Mazzulli. He's been around. Okay, cool. Like he may fucked up or he's not here. We're a really good team. Like, hey, we know Joe Mazzulli. He's been around. Okay, cool. Like, he may have fucked up or he's not here. We're a really good team. We're going to roll.

And the same, it's not the same act, but the same could be applied to the Warriors, especially the Warriors, too, because they've been doing this longer. They've been more successful. They're like, okay, Draymond punched teammates. Bullshit. Shouldn't have done it. All right, let's go out there and win 60 games.

Try to defend the title. Like, I just think athletes process and move on from things that other people would have a harder time processing. They just do it better. And maybe it's because they're selfish. Their mind is structured in a way where it is all about them and surviving how hard it is even getting to the NBA so that that leads into them getting over shit a little bit quicker.

So I don't want to just assume, hey, the Warriors are fine, everything's going to be good, but I don't know that this lingers with a professional sports team the way it would. Like Poole may never like Draymond again the rest of his life. So help me understand all of those elements, whether it's Poole, Draymond in the future, but then also knowing who this team is

and the structure, a very great structure for a basketball team going, you know what? We're not even going to be thinking about this in a couple weeks. Yeah, I think what's been important in the aftermath is the fact that this isn't a divided situation where there's half the locker room is like,

well, Draymond's kind of justified here and the other half's like, well, you know, pool, everyone back pool, the veterans, you know, Andre Wadala, Steph Curry, Kevon Looney, Steve Kerr, Bob Myers, all the way up to ownership who just paid Jordan Poole. The veterans, Andre Wadala, Steph Curry, Kavon Looney, Steve Kerr, Bob Myers, all the way up to ownership who just paid Jordan Poole for 4-1-23. Everyone in this situation has been like, Jordan Poole was wronged.

Draymond Green needs to... They've used the word, earn their trust back, which Draymond outwardly didn't like that word being used. But it's a situation where in a lot of ways, Draymond outwardly didn't like that word being used. But it's a situation where in a lot of ways, Draymond was isolated. And it's still feeling like a team because everyone seems kind of unified

with him on the other side of the situation. And then you then wonder, how's Draymond going to play? But the way they've structured the extensions and the contracts in the future, Draymond has to be really good this season. If Draymond wants the big contract that's out in front of him, he must

be healthy and be impactful. His way of being impactful is very helpful to a team. It can't be one of those situations where a player's upset with the team, but hey, I'm going to still go out and get mine, score 23, show I can do it.

And even if I'm not helping us win, like for Draymond to get another big contract, he has to be an awesome team player on the court. So that's just kind of the situation. He'll be 33 this season. He's at 25.8. He's got the player option for 27.5. I'd imagine they'd love for him to just pick up the player option

and then they'll figure it out and then take himself out to market. I don't know. And again, correct me, tell me, because I want you to tell me what you think, obviously. But, you know, all right, take up. You know, it's a good player option for you. If I'm another team, I'm not signing Draymond Green for this kind of money without the other guys.

But then again, I'm also a little worried about the Warriors, where they're at as a team, their personality without him. I think all teams kind of need that tough guy. And then sometimes I think about Draymond where I'm like, who's right or who's wrong here? Granted, he was wrong in punching pool. Is it the end of the world? No.

If they didn't want to suspend him, then I'm fine with it. I didn't give a shit. And then I'll think about other things. There was no remorse over 2016 it's fucking stupid uh he he runs so hot sometimes it feels like it it can get annoying uh you know something as dumb as i think michigan state was playing akron at football this year and he was standing at the end zone and he was getting in with the akron players and i thought why the fuck would he like why would you be getting in with these guys but then i'm getting into with the Akron players. And I thought, why the fuck would he like,

why would you be getting into with these guys? But then I'm like, wait, maybe the Akron guys to start talking shit to him. And then he's just not going to back down. Cause that's not who he is. So maybe it's easy. Maybe it's complicated with dream on and the personality standpoint of it. I saw you shake your head a little bit though.

When I said, he's not going to be as worth, he's not going to be worth this kind of money to other teams. So maybe we start there. When you said like you, you think the Warriors want him to pick up the player option in a sense of want to come back for $27 million, or you think they would prefer him to decline it and go test the market? No, I'm saying if the Warriors, it's a good number,

pick up that option and we'll revisit this then without having them to go to the long-term commitment. And then he can take himself to market. Because if I'm another GM, I'm not signing him without the Splash Brothers. Like it's just, you know, he deserves a lot of credit, but he's almost unwilling to ever admit like I landed in the perfect situation.

He's just not going to be that 34 years old. Like I'm not running plays for Draymond Green on another team. No, I mean that I agree with, but the problem is Joe Lacob is not... If he picks up his player option, which is his right at this point, they hit

$500 million in the tax bill. And Joe Lacob has basically been pretty transparent. He's not going over $400 million. So the reality is there's a big contract. If you include Draymond's within the conversation that will not be on the roster next season is my pretty strong belief. So is that a strain? That's not, that's not like set in stone and, you know,

they've messaged publicly and even behind the scenes, like let the season play out and like, you know, different decisions can be made. And Bob has even made the and even behind the scenes, like, let the season play out. And different decisions can be made. And Bob has even made the point that if you go back to the beginning of last season and said, hey, you're going to pay Jordan Poole four for 123 and you're going to extend Andrew Wiggins four for 109, he would have been like, no, I'm not. But what happened last season dictated those choices.

So I think they want to let this season play out. What if Draymond just gets back in the team's good graces, rips off an unbelievable regular season, is everywhere in the playoffs, he's great against Jokic and Davis, and wins them another title? Andrew Wiggins has an extremely tradable contract at this point. Jordan Poole, I'd say that's a tradable contract.

The most likely scenario in my mind, particularly considering the last couple weeks, is yes, that it's Draymond who's gone next season. But I wouldn't say that's set in stone. We will see. But I just don't think... They've said it's

not feasible to pay what they're currently committed to pay next season if Draymond picks up the option. So I don't think they would, depending on what happens, if he declined it, I don't think they'd hate that. And he may decline it too because they'll say, okay, well, whatever, even though 27 is going to be the best average annual salary, there'll be another team that has cap space that bring me in as the veteran. From a basketball standpoint, I just

don't know that he's never going to be in a better position in his life, which is fair to say about a lot of guys that would have played with the rest of the Warriors throughout this entire run. Maybe he goes, look, I'd rather hit free agency now. We already know there's something there's a $100 million deal out there for me somewhere else. I'm just going to go ahead and take that

even though the average would be down. That might be the way it would play out. But I would have thought that the Warriors would rather him just be in a situation where he's picking it up. So it's just that one year commitment and then they figure out the rest of it as opposed to just losing the asset because I don't care what your tax like. No one really wants to lose

the asset for nothing. Because you're talking about the salary slot, which historically they've been obsessed with holding the salary slot. It's why they signed D'Angelo Russell, which became Wiggins. But they've hit this threshold. And I think part of that is because they were not expecting Jordan Poole to

become $28 million per year when he's making $3.9 million this season. That leap that he's about to make in salary next season has made them go, we got to get off on it and sell it, essentially. Because unless Joe Lacob changes his mind and decides... He's basically tried to hold this line at about $360, $380 million when we're considering

salary and tax. It's going to be $500-something million next year if they keep everybody. So he said no to that, where you're generally correct. You don't want to lose the asset for nothing, but like they can't even trade Draymond and bring back money because then you have the same problem. So I just think they need to get off like they're get off of one of the three. I think is the

best way that you put it. Yeah, that we could be in June of next year going Oh, actually, this will be the guy that they're going to move out. You're right with the restrictions of being this far over all this stuff. I guess maybe the best way to do

is I feel like there's a lot of immediacy in that. Whatever, Draymond's gone. I don't know. He might be the worst investment of the three, which is fair. He's the guy that doesn't have the extension. Okay, so the odds may be.

I'm just not sure that it's that definitive, and that's kind of where I'm at right now in October. Yeah, and we potentially will feel differently if they have a playoff run where it's like all playoffs, you're like, well, Poole can't stay on the floor in this series, right? You know, defensively, and Draymond just has an awesome playoffs, which, of course, he's of the belief he will.

You know, the Wiseman's also making $12.1 million next season. There are other salaries you can maybe try to, you know, because if you shave $12.1 million off,

and we're talking about times eight, that's shaving like $90 million off a tax bill. There are other ways to potentially maneuver around. But Draymond, at this point point appears to be the cleanest way. Yeah, it is. No disagreement on that one whatsoever.

What else? What else do we need to talk about with the Warriors? Did you pick them to win the whole thing? It's funny. I said this in the beginning. I picked Bucs over them. Oh, you did pick the Bucs. I didn't know that that was your pick.

Did you say it was your pick? No, I didn't say it was my pick, but I said it, and then I've followed coverage over the last few days. I'm like, geez, I thought I was going against the grain a little bit, but I'm like, now I'm in the popular bandwagon.

I think they'll win the West. I'm just not of the belief that Clippers will be fully healthy in there and Kawhi is just going to look like Toronto Raptors, Kawhi against the Warriors. They're really loaded. What do you think of the young guys? I'm talking Moody, Kaminga, Wiseman.

I've always been a little indifferent on Moody, even coming out. His role is the easiest one to figure out what it is where you just go, I've always been kind of a little indifferent on Moody, even coming out, you know, but his, his role is the easiest one to figure out what it is, where you just go, Hey,

you know, make sure you move the ball and you're going to get a ton of open shots. Like you don't have to put it. Cause I felt like at Arkansas, he was a little, I don't like to say soft, but I thought he was a little like little, it just wasn't turned up enough for me at times even though he's you

know he's got the size and length and all that kind of stuff uh Wiseman maybe you say he's got the easiest role because you just go you're gonna come in back up loony but that's not why you take this guy as high as you take him you take him hoping he's the starter and he's playing 30 minutes and he's playing really good defense the offensive part of it doesn't really matter for Wiseman because he's going to get... We already saw it last night. There's free points out there all night. It reminds me of Glenn Gary and Glenn Ross. They're money

and they want to give it to you. He's going to score, but when you watched him in a very limited time, we saw him in three games in Memphis, there was another level of what his offense could be. I think we saw in his rookie year a little bit too, where you're like, oh, this guy wants to shoot like elbow jumpers.

He wants to put it on the ground and give you a jab step and then shoot again. And that's why you kind of get so excited about Wiseman. I've never written Wiseman off. I've not understood it. The floor for him is still impressive because there just aren't many people in the world that are that big that can move the way he moves. coming apart as you said at the top it's a lot harder but we probably felt better

about cominga compared to the other guys at times last season uh you know certainly more than moody and wiseman you know because wise wouldn't even be playing so that's my that's my young guy take and pool is is afraid of no one and I can't imagine him taking a step back whatsoever because that guy doesn't give a shit, and I love it. Yeah, and I think you saw it last night. I think DiVincenzo was a good signing, and Jermichael Green looked good. He had five offensive rebounds and hit two threes. Yeah, Jermichael Green should be somebody on everybody's to-do list

to fill out a rotation. I completely agree on Jermichael. Yeah, so part of the story of the Warriors' surprising title last season was the way they hit on their bargains, which was obviously Gary Payton II, Otto Porter, Bielitsa, even some.

It's very, very early, but I think they kind of did it again with DiVincenzo and Jermichael. Green really kind of round out, I would say, maybe the deepest rotation in the league. The Clippers are supposed to have one. I want to see them. I want to see it in actuality.

I guess I should say Jordan Poole's not afraid of anyone on the court as we finish. Is Poole... He took the punch. He sure did. He got right up. But I don't know. I mean, I don't know how we'd handicap that one. Are they going to not be cool

for a long time? We'll see. Jordan has pretty, in my opinion, been pretty transparently icy in his two press conferences, two press availabilities he's done and has shown no

signal in front of or behind the scenes that he's ready to be like, brothers are brothers. It's fine. It's more just like got a job to do. We're here to do a job. Which is kind of sometimes his tact anyways when talking to us. But he's not openly

putting his arm around Draymond right now to show that everything's fine. You guys get a tracker for pool to green passes? We saw a nice one last night. There was a really nice one last night. You felt like an extra buzz from the crowd.

Like, ah, see? So you guys are fine, right? It was like, nah, it was open. It was a nice pass. It's a great read. It's a great read. Anthony Slater, read them. I would say the one question I have though, Draymond last year held Poole accountable defensively all the time, yelled at him. I mean, I remember doing a story where he was just,

you know, and the coaches were happy about it. Like, yeah, get on him. Like, Mike Brown was loving it. Like, this is how we need to coach Poole up. Can he do that this year? That's my question. Like, can he yell at Jordan Poole after a defensive mistake? We didn't see one last night.

I want to see that. That's a great point. Here's the thing. Like, that would be the most anti-Draymond thing ever if he just decides, you know what, like I'm not going to get on his case about stuff because Poole will screw up defensively. And yeah, that's good.

I'll be looking for it, man. Again, Anthony Slater, the athletic. Read him all season long. Really good stuff, even if you're just not a Warriors fan. Thanks, man. yeah that's that's good i'll be looking for it man uh again anthony slater the athletic read him all season long uh really good stuff even if you're just not a warriors fans thanks man yep thanks for having me the come up is out now an oral history of the rise of hip-hop jonathan abrams somebody who i am a huge fan of uh not only as a Grantland alum, but also wrote the book about The Wire. Thanks for doing this, man. So let's start with this. This reads like a family tree of hip hop where the tentacles just kind of spread geographically across the country,

different areas, obviously, and different timelines. So if we go back to whatever five decades, Cool Herc, the DJ parties, DJs battling, B-Boys dancing, and all of this is happening in the 70s. Something's happening, but it feels like it definitely changes once the message in Grandmaster Flash, The Furious Five, like whatever it was where it's kind of unknown what it is, then becomes something perhaps more identifiable along that timeline. Yeah. Well, first of all, Ryan, I know our orbits have kind of crisscrossed over the years and I haven't gotten the chance to chop it up with you yet.

So I really appreciate this opportunity. But yeah, the message represented this giant shift for hip hop where if you looked at hip hop coming up in those really early years, it was this kind of party music genre. It was the rapper's delight, the hip hop, the hippity hip hop. And they're not really saying that much. And Edwin Fletcher, who went by the name Duke Booty, he works for Sugarhill Gangs, their band. And he's telling the guys, hey, if I ever get on this, you guys better watch out because y'all ain't saying nothing and he gets a chance to get on there and he writes his song the message where it's this social critique about what he sees the broken glass everywhere and you really see a

fundamental change in hip-hop after there where i don't think people realize that hip hop could be this social vessel before the message comes out in 1982 yeah that that feels like i went back and listened to it again and it still it works and granted we've heard that beat over and over and over again um and i you know there's so many different pioneers in hip hop and there's so many different moments where you're like okay was that when things would change and i guess maybe i will just jump in because after sugar hill and you have this this run dmc element that the way you compare it it's almost like rock and roll like they decided to do something different sonically than maybe what was happening before but it definitely wasn't along the lines of like the social commentary of what Grandmaster Flash

is doing. Yeah. So Run DMC, they're really important because they're the group who really crosses over this new genre over to the mainstream, to the white audience. But you see from the message, there's almost a direct lineage between two branches of hip hop. there's almost a direct lineage between two branches of hip hop. First, you see Public Enemy coming out in the late 1980s. And then you see Schoolie D come out with PSK, What Does It Mean in Philadelphia, which is really the birth of gangster rap. And Schoolie D is somebody who I talked to for this book. And he's like, yes, I was directly influenced by the message that showed me that I could talk about stuff that I see in records and not necessarily be shut down. Okay. Let's, let's go with the public enemy part and then I'll bring it back around to the West coast and school ed and everything because school ed gets a lot of

love in this from a lot of different people in the industry, but public enemy, tell us about Chuck D tell us about flavor grip. Tell us about the education. education. These guys were just thinking differently, man. And it was really revealing reading about their origins in this book. Yeah. So what they're doing is they're just reinventing the wheel sonically, lyrically. They have the heft and the weight of the Bomb Squad, this revolutionary production team behind them. production team behind them and they're putting together music, just shards of different records from their past and putting it all together to create this big sonic mosaic. So that's one component. Then you have the component of somebody like Chuck D, who is coming out of Adelphi College,

where he's in this group with a couple other members of Public Enemy, and they're seeing what's going on socially. And they're a group from Long Island coming out in hip hop when hip hop has basically been in New York during that time, in New York City. So the genre starts traveling out to the suburbs and Public Enemy, they take it on their shoulders to present this social commentary because they feel like they're almost in a different place than somebody in New York City. They have the means of more expression and more commodities to be able to get their message out than somebody who may be in that decay and desolation where hip-hop was born in the Bronx. Yeah, because Chuck D was what? He was a graphic designer designer and it was just a bunch of people kind of going to school at the same time where it's just fun. It's fun to read about younger people kind of discovering that they're going to do something special, but they're still not sure what it's going to be yet. Yeah. And he was he was in his like mid to mid to late 20s at that time. And he thought he had basically aged out of being a hip hop

artist. They had to really, really convince him to grab a microphone. Cause somebody heard his voice, right? When he was, wasn't he like doing just PA stuff or PA announcements and somebody heard his voices. Yeah. He was at a basketball game and they were just like, that's a voice. That's the voice of a generation right there. And then they had to really, really convince him. He just wanted to be on radio. He wanted to maybe be an MC on the likes of Frankie Crocker, who's a really big MC and fundamental in the whole hip hop rise in New York City. And they saw him as somebody to aspire to because there were no hip hop stars really at that time other than Run DMC, but there weren't many. No, you had Run DMC, you had LL Cool J, which every time you're reminded about LL Cool J,

you're like, this guy is still going. I mean, I saw him a few years ago. He was the entertainment for an ESPYs party. And I would never have put LL at the top of my list or any of my list, although you have a ton of respect for him. And to watch him perform, I was like, holy shit, does this guy bring it? It was unbelievable. People forget about LL. He was one of the first just solo straight superstars when he was coming out of Def Jam. And he was only like 17 when his first album came out. But I think it was Curtis Blow. And then it was him as far as the first, first solo artist to really get going and make their names in hip hop.

So at that point, you know, the sampling has taken off. I think if you look at a lot of the Run DMC stuff, you'd be like, okay, we've got our drum machine, we've got our sample, you know, it felt, again, this is why the public enemy takes a nation of millions means so much is because sonically you're all of a sudden, you're like, holy shit.

And you can tell in the book that so many other guys that were kind of like, where is this going? Where's this going? Like, what are those guys just do? Rick Rubin, legendary producer. Like you're, you're mentioning like whether it's an alarm, whether it's a sound effect, but it just, it brought you to attention. That album brought you to attention, especially for somebody like me who grew up, you know, getting it as soon as it came out. Cause you would hear about it, not having any idea what the messages were because it just wasn't the the world that i was exposed to but just from a musical sense you're like what the fuck is this and it it just shook you you know it shook whether it's night of

the living bass heads whether it's you know i don't know louder than a bomb although i kind of like yeah every one of those songs you're like what is this and that felt like a real turning point because then everybody decided i don't have to just grab a sample and make some drum beat like i have to step it up because that i think that challenged everybody else from a production standpoint all right enough of this shit like you guys need to start treating this musically and i think that's what that album did oh without a doubt and they were they were musicians first and foremost and it was the result of all those guys putting it in where you had you know chuck d and if you got too much of him you had the the comic foil that was flavor flayed and then you had these musicians who, you know, sonically, they would call it dissonance,

but everything resolves somewhere to where it was just perfection. Like, you know, people who weren't raised up on that, they would call it noise. But those guys worked their asses off to make sure that everything musically resolved somewhere. So how did that then migrate West? Because I think part of his school, he D as you mentioned, uh, where he felt like, look, I'm, I'm giving you poems essentially about my day to day. So I think musically public enemy got people thinking about things differently, but the West coast thing still hadn't really, you know, it still had years to catch up. Yeah. So the west coast is bubbling and percolating

they're first heavily influenced by africa bombada and planet rock so they're on that electro music in the early 1980s and first school ed comes out in philadelphia and psk comes out in 1985 and then right off the heels of that ice tea-T hears that he likes it. He's thinking about how he can almost emulate it and he's inspired by it. So he comes out with Six in the Morning. And Six in the Morning is the time basically that LAPD used their batarounds to come in and force down doors in LA. So that's really West Coast's first, one of their first hip hop gangster songs was Six in the Morning with Ice-T. Right off of that, you have this group that's starting to come together and form called NWA. And their main writer is this teenager named Ice Cube.

He hears Six in the Morning, he hears PSK, and he comes out with Boys in the Hood for Eazy-E, which is something that's based off of them. So you see the whole gangster rap subgenre basically launching off of PSK in Philadelphia. And then what comes up after that? So straight out of Compton comes out, NWA is at its peak. And it's almost like there's this wrestling for where is hip hop going to head? It's this young genre. It's growing in influence. And is it going to be this gangster rap that's really getting popular in the West Coast? Or is it going to be this social commentary, grabbing your attention, public enemy brand of hip hop?

So they almost come face to face in 1989. How does Ice Cube factor into doing something really nobody even thought about doing at the time essentially going all right after nation of millions and then after what i've done i'm leaving nwa but i want to work with the people that put together it takes a nation of millions yeah so ice cube is something that i talked to him about at length he had great great respect for chuck d for public enemy for everything they do. So NWA basically implodes after Straight Outta Compton and Ice Cube decides to go to New York and he's going to make his solo debut album. There's a lot of pressure on him. He just broke up with his group.

He's wondering if he can still be the same type of Ice Cube without Dre's beats. You know, Dre is already by then known for his beats. He decides to link up with Public Enemy, with the Bomb Squad, for America's Most Wanted. And just that CD came together real quickly. It's another classic. The social commentary is cutting. The beats are amazing. And what's, you know, how that album holds up is at that point in time, the East Coast and the West Coast, they weren't really collaborating like that.

It was almost like two different nations coming together where Africa Islam had done some stuff with Ice-T. But what Ice Cube did with Public Enemy and with the Bomb Squad was really groundbreaking. What did you gain? We've all seen the movie. We've all heard the stories. What did you gain from different elements at NWA on how that went so bad so fast? It just seemed like it was a lot of miscommunication, talking to Arabian Prince, talking to Ice Cube, it seemed like Jerry Heller at that time, he was set up to be Eazy-E's representative when they thought that he was going to look out for all of them. And so there was money being

misplaced. They weren't getting the money that they thought they were supposed to be getting. And I think when groups come together, it's only a matter of question of when they break up, because they all break up the only question is when like are you going to be able to get one album are you going to be able to get two albums how long is it going to be as this is happening you know you still have new york city which feels like a bronx invented this stuff you know whether it's krs criminal minded you know the early stuff going on with boogie down production then there's this this slight shift and it is you know you knew it if you were into hip-hop but like when black sheep

came out with their first thing which is kind of an offspring of native tongues which i want to get back to de la soul is kind of the start of that but like when when black sheep just shit all over gangster rap and pretend they have that dream sequence and they're just screaming and you're like wait what because the first time you hear that song you're like wait are they trying to do this for real and then they shake each other and the guy says i had a dream that i was hard it it was kind of the beginning of like obviously it became a lot worse later on but the beginning of like new york just still not respecting anything that came to the West Coast. And I think that's very normal.

Even if they like the music, it just felt like as the originators of the genre, they had to just out of hand dismiss anything coming from the West Coast, even though they were selling millions of records. Yeah, somebody somebody in the book described New York City as Wakanda, where you have all these separate factions infighting. But once their rivals from elsewhere come out and try to challenge them, they all band together the different boroughs. And I thought that was a really accurate description to where the Chronic and when that came out in the early 90s and then Snoop Doggy Dogg with Doggy Style, that was really the first time when it was just, OK, this is too good. This is overwhelming hip hop everywhere where the West Coast started to get some of that respect.

But I don't even think N.W.A. got all that much respect from from New York when they originally came out. No, and I'll never forget the Dog Pound video that just all over New York, stepping all over the buildings. And that was years later. But I mean, I still was in college and you were just like, oh. Because there was this other element of hip hop that you had to be like, well, who's going to say what to who? And we'll get to Pock and Biggie here a little bit. But just before we go any further on that, three feet high and rising is important for different reasons. The fact that it got a chance, right?

The fact that, you know, whether it was Prince Paul and Tommy Boy, but them understanding this native tongues. And again, they call it like hippie rap and everything back then because it wasn't about some of the other things. Like these guys were admitting we're not tough. We're not pretending to be tough. We're not pretending to be tough, but three feet high and rising. Again, if you want to talk about the layering of different chances that you're taking musicallyis years later and loving all his music is that when he started doing in a silent way attributed to jack johnson the more funk diffusion and putting more and more electric stuff and people were so mad at miles davis because they were like why are what are you doing why are you doing this

and what de la soul did time after time again was do something different that we were just not ready for and it took me a couple years on a few of those albums where I didn't understand how special it was what they were doing. And that, to me, is the absolute best example of, if you're a genius at what you're doing, it just means the rest of us aren't ready for that kind of stuff. And I think whether that turns into Tribe and some of the other stuff, and I ended up probably liking Tribe more down the road,

but that's a time and a place where that was a risk. And I'm obviously glad it happened because without it, I don't know. I don't know if those groups get those chances as talented as they were because it, at the time, probably didn't fit the mold of what was really popular. Yeah, Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul, Jungle Brothers. That was all a really special snapshot in hip hop history where... And really Jungle Brothers first too, you know, like to point that out with how much credit those guys deserve. Yeah. Where they're experimenting and developing different set of things, showing a whole new different side of hip hop.

That hip hop in the late 80s, early 90s, that whole period is just so special during that golden age because you're really not at hip hop's potential yet. And you still don't know what hip hop can be. And they're experimenting and they're developing and they're giving homage to what they grew up on, but still taking it in new, different, exciting directions to where, you know, it's obviously a crime that an album like Three Feet High and rising like you can't get that on itunes because they were so eclectic and wide-ranging with their sampling that they haven't been able to get it clear yeah so that's the deal they had that thing what was it years ago didn't they just announce that it was all for free digitally and you had like this window to download it yeah i remember that yeah yeah yeah i did not take advantage of that window um i still have the cds around okay let's talk about tupac the first impressions that people had of him in the beginning of his career uh the book is loaded with them what were some of your favorite stories about

people meeting pock for the first time yeah i think it was just his talent, his vision. It was almost like they knew that he was a guy who was hit it for, for superstardom. And, you know, I don't think it's, I grew up in Southern California. I'm 38 years old. So for me, Pac is my goat, right? Like, I'll never forget where I was when I, when I heard that he was shot and heard that he, I'll never forget where I was when I heard that he was shot and heard that he died a few days later. He was somebody who showed me the full range of how to be black. Somebody who could be a poet, somebody who could go scorch earth and show that full dynamism in a human being. There's a really good point that's brought up in the book about Tupac in that it's a theory.

It doesn't mean it's accurate. And I think it's even shot down in the book itself by somebody else. But that when he plays Bishop in the movie Juice, which is an incredible movie, that that's a very defining delineation between pre-Bishop and post-Bishop Tupac. What did you think about, share more on that theory and what you thought of it? Yeah, well, the people who I spoke to in the book who were with Tupac in those moments, kind of before and after that movie. So first of all, Bishop is this kind of homicidal maniac in the movie. And the people who were with Tupac saw people treat him differently after that movie came out. They saw people almost treating him more like Bishop than Tupac. And that

was almost this persona that he carried forward after that movie came out, where he felt he had to almost live up to the legend of who this character was yeah because then people were saying no no he didn't change people around him changed so much that then he kind of stepped in yeah he responded to that and then kind of became a different person so i don't think there was much pushback and people felt like he was a completely different guy uh but he'd also gone through some real experiences there too that you would think between the fame and then being incarcerated that he was going to, and then being shot when he was in New York prior, you know, which is before the actual murder in Vegas. It'd be hard to not be a little different after going through all that. Yeah, I imagine.

So one of the, one of the main quotes that sticks out to me in the book is Greg Mack, who was this legendary radio programmer at K-Day who built up a lot of the West Coast acts. He was like, I remember seeing Tupac when he first came up and somebody introduced him to me. He was this sharp guy asking all these questions. before he was killed. And he just had this different look in his eye like he wanted to kill me. And I had no idea where this look came from. And that moment stuck with Greg Mack a generation later. And Greg Mack deserves a ton of credit for getting the hip-hop thing going on the West Coast,

who put together these parties. There's a lot of cool stuff, stuff that I'd never known anything about, not from here, hadn't read about it. All right, on the Biggie side of things, I'm going to ask you this question kind of again later on, but I think Biggie is going to be the answer. There's a certain awareness that it felt like other people had the first time that they worked with him where they were like okay this is something special um and it sounds like his first studio session uh proved that pretty quickly so share that story with us yeah easy mo b was one of his first producers and he gets biggie into the studio and easy mo b is a guy he likes to have a plan he likes to have this itinerary. He likes to clock in, clock out.

Biggie gets in there. He's eating burgers. He's bullshitting. Easy Mo B is starting to sweat. This guy is wasting his studio time. He's trying to get on him to go, go, go, go, go. Finally, Biggie is done eating all these hamburgers, messing around with girls, gets up. One take, he's out. It perfect easy mo b is like all right man

i'm never gonna question you again just order all the burgers you want yeah uh i know you have ilmatic as one of your top five albums of all time uh i would as well um but it's it's interesting how it almost feels like you know i don't know maybe 15 to 14 years later the message into bill madden that there's so many parallels but this this was a little different you know there was it was it was different because it was like nas had more tools right he'd had all of these people prior to him to kind of pick and choose from all the different influences. So it's considered, I don't know if you would agree or not, and I think so in the book, but it's that he's a pioneer in a modern era as compared to, you know,

the guys that were kind of just putting the tracks down in the first place. Yeah, for me, with Nas and Illmatic, it's the elevation of this art form where he's building upon what Rakim and KRS-One and other lyricists have done before him. And it's the first time where I think hip hop can almost be compared to something like Shakespearean. It's somebody sitting on their corner in Queens documenting what they're seeing. So there's the lyrics, which are pristine and on point. It's a tight 10-track album. Beyond that, it's the first time you have an album where there's just like a super team of producers

all working together. So you get Pete Rock doing one track. You get Q-Tip doing another track. You get DJ Premier doing another one where nobody had ever really thought or convened that before it's like you have one producer who does the whole album all the way through where nas was like no i'm gonna get all these superstars to do one track for me and it's going to be this

tight 10 track thing and you can play it all the way through and there's no skips nothing at all it's a perfect album it's a perfect album and that's i mean look as much as i love public enemy there's a few skips there every now and then so uh and my my favorite my favorite tupac cd is all eyes on me and it's this bloated double cd where you kind of wish there was some editing going on people made fun of me for liking Are You Still Down as much as I did. I was like, I don't know. I think there's some great tracks in there. Alright, give me...

Is there someone... How many people did you interview for this book? More than 300. Was there one rapper? Was there one producer? Was there one figure in the history of this where people kind of kept coming back like you know like you know you know like basketball players would go you know who could

go was this guy i always feel like rod strickland gets gets a lot of that from former players uh is there somebody in hip-hop that kind of falls into that category maybe it's the obvious choice or maybe it isn't yeah i think there's a few somebody like rock him i think there's almost a before and after in hip-hop with him where people talk about him and his introduction of his his flow and his poetry that he used there are a lot of people talking about his influence on on them somebody like ice-T, how he took hip hop in a different direction. And he was obviously somebody inspired by Schoolie D. But one of my favorite moments of the book

is Killer Mike talking about the impact that Ice-T had on him. And producer-wise, there's Marlon Mall, Pete Rock. A lot of those guys are big influences on the generation of producers who came after them yeah Rock Kim you know you just you have to there's a few excerpts in the

book where you're interviewing people and they're like look it's Rock Kim and then we'll figure out the rest and it's honestly kind of hard to argue it may be a personal preference so you don't have them in your top five but you know I think any list without him in your top five is a mistake and then the Peteete rock stuff's hilarious because i i talked to you last night like shack went to go hang out with will smith goes to hang out with this dude at his

house and he's not even there like he doesn't yeah so jeff sledge he did a and r at jive records and he was he hadq as a client. Shaq is Rookie of the Year. He's going to do his first album. They go to Pete's house in Mount Vernon. Shaq, this big-ass dude, is standing right behind him. Pete's dad opens the door, and he's kind of like, what the? And then he's just like, Pete's not here.

So Jeff Sledge, he gets reamed out all the way back. So next time he comes back with Will Smith, Will Smith is excited to do this album. It's in the middle of like peak Will Smith too, right? Yeah, he's fresh off of Fresh Prince of Bel-Air is the hottest thing on TV. They go to Pete's house. Pete again isn't there.

They wait a while. All these people are starting to, like word starts to trickle out that Will Smith is in town. All these people start to build up around Pete's house. You know, there's people outside, people knocking on the door. Pete's still not there. So there's almost like a mob scene going on at his house. Finally, Pete gets there and he's just like, oh, sorry, man, I had to get a haircut. And then they finally get the session started. But Jeff said that they weren't too productive that day

because there was just such a scene at his house. There was some Super Bowl party and he was with somebody I knew and they came up and he said, hey, and I told you the story the other night. I like bowed. I didn't really know what to do. You know, it was Pete Rock.

I just sort of did this kind of weird. I've never done that ever before. I've never done it since since i don't know why i did it i'm not proud of it but i did it so last story can you tell us about dre and one of his guys after they finished the chronic because i really like if you want to talk about like impact the chronic is very high on the list and i remember working at the cd place that i worked at for years which you know turned me on to not hip-hop but a lot of the jazz stuff which then you started realizing like oh wait that's what this is that's what this guy's doing you know james brown but when the chronic came out like the people that you would see coming in to

buy that cd it was like a completely different category of people that were like, okay, I'm in share the story because I was dying laughing because it was so typical of the way fame works, but go ahead. Yeah. So the story that Chris, Chris, the glove Taylor, who was a producer on the chronic gave me was that he was called the glove real quick. He was called the glove because he used to wear a DJing glove back when he was just a dj i want to say like he got that nickname because he had these like big gardening gloves that he used to use to to move stuff that's what i think it was yeah he was moving in stuff but i forget if it was man now i don't want to dog the guy because he'd be like i wasn't wearing a fucking glove while i did but yeah that's what they call them because guys saw him wearing gloves so then

i don't i figured I forget in the book. Have you kept them? Sorry. I interrupted. Go ahead. No, no, you're fine.

So the story was that by the time they finished the chronic crystal glove, Taylor said that they hadn't smoked that him and Dr. Dre had never smoked. We had never smoked weed after they finished the chronic. So in order for them to make it official, they, they went and found some. And I think I want to say they found some off of one of Snoop Doggy dogs,

uh, uh, friends or something. And they got some, they, they lit up and they just looked at the sky in the backyard, just happy that they made this amazing CD and now they can make it official. Yeah.

They needed to make it official. All right. What was, what was the first rap song? What was the first experience for you that started all this? What was the first thing you listened to? You're like, I'll never forget, fill in the blank. It's kind of like that whole criminal-minded sample that they do. When I first heard Criminal Minded on De La Soul on Stakes High. Yeah. I mean, I grew up in Southern California, so I have like vague memories of NWA and I caught a little bit of the chronic and doggy style, but Tupac is always going to be that guy who whether it was dear mama to live and die in L.A.

Me and my wife, we walked out on California love when we got married. So there's a Tupac song for everything. Wow, that's pretty cool. I didn't know. Yeah, I was always a little like I would always like the ones that and I wasn't trying to do it on purpose, but like, I liked midnight marauders better than low end theory, which I know for everybody is the wrong answer. Um, I liked five better than Q-tip.

I liked double funky homo sapiens, my favorite rapper ever. And people are just like, you know, you're just trying to be different. I'm like, I don't think I am. I, I, I can understand anyone have rock him ahead of him. I, you know, I get it. I totally get it,

you know, but there were just like, I liked the easy solo stuff probably as much as I liked NWA. Cause I just thought it was, it was hilarious. You know, it was, but you're a young kid,

you don't, you don't know any better. Uh, the last thing that I wanted to say, and I'm glad he got a lot of love in the book is the DOC. Because if you want to talk about things that blew my mind as a little kid,

no one can do it better is pretty close to perfect as far as a guy's flow, his writing, his cadence, all of it. How he could switch up his speeds, how he could kind of rhyme into the next phrase, just some of the technical stuff that he did. And he doesn't

get nearly enough love historically. We get it. He had a terrible car accident, damaged his vocal cords. I think Prince from NWA suggests, like he goes, think about that. He finishes No One Can Do It Better, which is an all-timer, okay? Start to finish, that's an all-timer. And he could never perform it live.

He wrote on a bunch of the first songs for straight out of compton um i really appreciate that he got as much love in this book as he deserves because he's i know he's still around i know he's still working i know he's still doing stuff but it's just it's obviously you know it could have been a worse story it's still really sad because that that tape cassette for me you know back when I would throw it in and play hoops and just shoot and shoot and shoot and listen to the DOC, that was one of my all-time favorites. It'll never be in anybody else's top five,

and I don't care because that's what it meant to me. I mean, he's one of hip-hop's greatest what-ifs. You think about it's funky enough and the formula. He still had a great impact. He wrote a lot on The Chronic. He wrote a lot for Snoop Doggy Dog, but I think we'd be talking about him as a goat, right? If he had had the career that he should have had. Yeah. I don't think there's any doubt. Yeah. Whirlwind Pyramid, Grand Finale. I

mean, if you've never heard it and you're remotely interested in the history of it and you like the rest of that stuff, there's just so many people that like NWA, like Cube, like Eazy-E. And it's like, well, if you listen to this, you would like this too. And the thing was, he was from Texas, which a lot of people kind of were like, wait, what's going on? This guy's writing all this straight out of Compton stuff and dudes from Texas.

Hey, I'm so fired up for you, man. I loved it. I loved reading this oral history. It's always a lot of fun, the oral history of the rise of hip-hop, the come up with China the Neighbors. Thanks, man. Thank you, Brian. This week's worst take, the podium again.

Suri, just remind us for everybody. Yep, Gilbert Reynos still one, Bart Scott still two, and Charles James still three. So I don't think we've had a change in the last two weeks. No. Man, that Arenas one is tough to take. Although the Bart Scott one gets worse as the season

brings. I know the Chiefs lost this weekend, but they lost the best team. I think the Charles James one is my favorite one, which is the Daniel Jones. It's Josh Allen without an offensive line. Maybe we're taking the L on that. Daniel Jones is great. 5-1 Giants. Maybe we're the the L on that. Daniel Jones is great. 5-1 Giants.

Maybe we're the losers here. As we know, we're all eligible for this. And here's what I would ask. If I told Giants fans, Daniel Jones is your starter next year, week one, your reaction is what? I know it's not great. Yeah, okay.

All right, so nominations. Go ahead, Kyle. Okay, I was scrambling. And like you said, I crowdsource mine, and sometimes these things come and they're like five days old by the time you get to them. I was furiously scrolling, looking for them while you were doing your open. Sorry about that. And here's what I got.

I'm going to make a statement here. I don't know if you're going to agree with it. Vaughn Miller is as crucial to the defense for the Bills as Josh Allen is to the offense. I don't know about that okay yeah no that's a good one i don't i don't blame you crowdsourcing it that's here's let me just jump in and tell you why that's not true one is well prior to the chiefs game von miller's snap count was down like way down from where he normally was because the whole plan is to try to keep him fresh all season long. I think his first game against the Rams, he had 35 snaps.

So his pressure rate is still really good. He's just prior to the Chiefs game, his snaps aren't even close to the percentage of snaps he was playing previous years. I think you could go purely off Dungy's reaction too. It was just a little awkward. Everyone was like, I don't know about that. Remember, we're on tv here pal so uh i just i thought the whole thing was good and i don't know if it'll knock anything off but um it won't have a little fun i think yeah i mean dungy's the nicest human being ever yeah you can hear it for dungy to go ah i don't

know about that what do you got sir rudy all right this is from our guy Frank Schwab, Yahoo Sports. Don't know Frank. Sure, he's a great guy. And this is when I texted you, Ryan. And maybe I'm wrong on this, but I don't think I am. Kyler Murray, stock is way down. Everybody's selling their stock right now. And he had this tweet and said,

I wonder if any NFL team would take Kyler and his contract right now. Like, for free. He's implying that, like, would any team in the NFL want Kyler in that contract? I know the contract's bad. We talked about it last week with Dofer. Like you asked, is it the worst contract in the NFL? It might be. But I still think it's an absolutely insane question to ask.

I think legitimately, and Ben Solak went through this because he quote tweeted it. I genuinely think half of the league right now would take Kyler Murray and the contract as their quarterback. Like if you look across the landscape, he's still good. He's still really talented. And, you know, like, Carson Wentz has been traded twice with a terrible contract, okay? I'd much rather have Kyler Murray. He's much more talented.

I know Carson Wentz had that one, like, decent half year. But the idea that, like, no one wants Kyler Murray now, and I understand the contract is involved as well, I think we're just getting a little too ahead of ourselves here. Yeah, I think it's two different things. The contract is bad because I can't believe he got what he got. Now, he would, other than the Deshaun scenario, which was very weird because he thought he was going to Atlanta the night before. We've talked about this before.

It was done. And then Cleveland, because they thought he was going to Atlanta, was like, okay, well, what would it was kind of he was calling the shots because the money they guaranteed the full 200 plus million guaranteed it like unprecedented because the situation it was itself unprecedented so if you just go normal young quarterback extensions and how much money you guys are getting kyler would have the most guaranteed money in the history of the nfl and that part of it you you're like, you gave it to that guy? I agree.

Look, I think he's talented. But that's different from the NFL, which is like a fake hard cap, first of all, okay? And if you want a quarterback and you want to improve your talent and you haven't had a good one for life, there'd be a ton of teams that'd be like, we don't give a shit. We have to pay $30 million for some. We don't even get these guys in free agency.

And we do. We give Kirk have to pay $30 million for some... We don't even get these guys in free agency, and we do. We give Kirk Cousins $100 million guaranteed. And that was years ago when he did that first Vikings thing off of the franchise tag with Washington. So I get Schwab's point, but it's two different things that actually don't really have that much to do with each other.

I think it's the worst contract in the league. I can't believe he got it. Good for him. But other teams would take it. I agree. He might be like a top five most talented quarterback in the league. Yeah, he better start showing that too.

But if you're going to buy Hopkins, or excuse me, Murray stock, Hopkins coming back would be the time to do it. Correct. The only reason I say that though is because even if he never figures it out, there's going to be multiple teams

that are going to take a shot at that guy. We've seen it before. It happens all the time. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. I already brought it up in the open from Tales of the Couch. The 18-7-7 boys, they just cannot help

themselves with Westbrook. Reggie Miller was just on one last night about it. I just don't know why a former player can't just point out all the stuff that I notice, which is accurate. Or that the internet has finally figured it out. The internet has figured

it out. Do you see all the bad things that Westbrook does to your team? And the former player is just I don't know if it's a fraternity thing. I don't know if it's, hey, it's so negative about Russ, I'm going to go I don't know if it's the fraternity thing. I don't know if it's, hey, it's so negative about Russ, I'm going to go the other way,

but it's actually very national broadcast-y. I mean, it happens all the time. We all decide collectively this player can't do something. I don't want to talk about Westbrook specifically, but there'll be that one player that can't do something, and then, you know what it is? It's the hardened defense. Hardened sucks. He sucked on defense again last night.

Okay? He just sucks at it? It's the Harden defense. Harden sucks. He sucked on defense again last night. Okay? He just sucks at it. He's not going to play. I don't know that Embiid was super locked in defensively last night either, but everybody says that we all agree because it actually is true. You know, the masses can be asses. You get it. Don't follow the mob.

Zag, all that stuff, but there are times when it's just something that's so painfully obvious and backed by eye tests and information that you're like yeah we ours is not gonna defense all right whatever and so then the national broadcaster decides you know he's a little he gets like a strip right or he blocks a shot at the end of the thunder series two years ago like oh i thought he couldn't play any defense you're like motherfucker this isn't, this isn't about a deflection. This is about the thousands of minutes. And that's what maybe Reggie Miller was doing with Russell Westbrook.

But that's not even my nomination. Cannell is losing his fucking mind again this season. All I can picture is I think he gets really mad about the sec thing. Like really, but acts like he doesn't. Yeah. It's like, yeah,

it doesn't bother me, dude. I don't even think about it. Like you think I'm sort of, I do. I I've argued the real guy's way better than the Twitter guy. I'm wondering if the Twitter guy's the real guy. So there were these hypotheticals about Bama,

Georgia and Tennessee getting into the playoff, which is by the way, what we do. We just do this, man. 15 hours a week had a lot of shit to come up with back in the day. We talk about it. Could Bama, Georgia, Tennessee get in? Maybe. I don't know.

I wouldn't want it to happen, but of course, because that happens, he chimes in that what if UNC, Clemson, Syracuse all get in uh unc acc champion that would be beating clemson oh excuse me yeah that would be beating clemson now i gotta pull up fucking schedules again it would be yeah it would be unc it would be unc beating clemson in the acc title game uh obviously clemson's the runner-up with one loss, and then Syracuse's only loss is to Clemson, right?

Yeah, but I don't know why he has the records the way he did. He screwed up the records. Let me just point this out. This is why Danny's so full of shit. If a team beat Louisville, UConn, Purdue, Virginia, Wagner, and NC State without their NFL quarterback,

he would never argue for that team. He would never argue. The strength of the schedule, I think, is 119. Unless it was UCF. Except it's Syracuse, and they're in the ACC. So he doesn't follow his own rules. So are any of these...

You know what I think retroactively? Perk should be... Can he be re-nominated again for having Beverly and Westbrook? Can we put him back in there and replace Charles James? Who are we taking out? Charles James.

All right. I think because of Daniel Jones' hot start, I think that's a good call. I think we swap him out. That's a good call. I'm okay with that. Okay. We made a change on the podium.

There you go. First take. You want details? Fine. I drive a Ferrari. 355 Cabriolet. What's up? I have a ridiculous house in the South Fork.

I have every toy you could possibly imagine. And best of all, kids, I am liquid. So, now you know what's possible possible let me tell you what's required life advice life advices are at gmail.com if you want to send in a submission we're still workshopping judge kyle i think it should be more like a hot bench situation i think we all would you know all would roll on it anyway and then it's kind of need two out of three to get it done. I like that. I think Kyle's final say, yeah. Yeah, I love when you talk courtroom drama.

God. I was watching it yesterday, folding a bunch of laundry. Rank them right now. Give me all the judges in order. Judge Judy's changed. Judge Judy's changed, so maybe I would say Mathis is number one. One sentence scouting report. Yeah, one sentence on each judge. Judy changed. Mathis is number one. One sentence scouting report. Yeah, one sentence on each judge.

Judy changed. Mathis is number one. Just super magnetic, magnanimous. I like Hot Bench is great. Three is better than one. That's what she said. Marilyn Millian is just no nonsense. She's probably number four behind three people.

That's kind of the ones I watch right now. Judge Ross. Hold on. What am I saying? Judge Ross. Kind of the ones i watch right now i judge ross hold on what am i saying judge ross kind of the young the young buck even though he's getting up there in age how many hours of courtroom tv will you bang out in an off day on an off day well i mean i'm kind of i'm in and out of the living room you know my i smoke on the balcony so i walk back from the balcony and be like oh which one's this you know i hear you nothing look i i've been guilty of it plenty of times you're in a hotel room you're getting packed up you're changing you're getting ready to start your day and you're like i gotta stay

for the verdict great people watching yeah absolutely yeah i gotta stay and i'll try to play that game i always thought i always thought like a good a good skit for a show where the host wasn't white would be because the white guy is just not going to get away with it anymore, but they would just, it would be another show almost like mystery science type. And then they would, the two people with the defendant and plaintiff would come in and then they would just guess who was guilty.

Right. And then you would just keep like like as soon as they walked in before they said a fucking word you would be like boom the reason again if you were ever a white guy in the one episode you didn't pick that you would just be like oh that guy sucks so right so i'm just i'm i'm confirming that i know that would have to be you know it would it would have to be a different guy hosting the show, different person, female, whatever. I'm always shocked when they're suing for $150. I'm like, wow, this is, I mean,

the appearance fee must be good to get you guys to get out of bed for this because you guys traveled from Tempe to LA to sue for $150 for some ruined floor mats or something. It's like, what the fuck? They don't have a lot going on, Kyle. Yeah, you guys just called off of work. Like, like i'm gonna be gone for three days i gotta handle this floor mat situation i'll be back right you'd imagine there's be people that would be like i'll pay 1500 to not be honest so you want you know i don't want to go on this fucking show are you

kidding me i remember uh there's somewhat of a public defamation lawsuit, and the person filing for defamation, it was like 8,500. They went, wait, what? So when that came out, again, I'm not going to, it's not super hard to figure out which one that was. Anyway, moving forward here, let's get to the emails. This one's titled, A Girl with a Mustache. Pretty off to a bad start.

All right. Six foot, 187, 30 years old, washed up basketball player. Can go by anyone, but only once or twice and I'm shot. Nobody looks better than the first possession of a pickup basketball game than me. It's unbelievable. I'd be like, shit, this guy's here to play. Like, no, I'm not. me. It's unbelievable. I'd be like, shit, this guy's here to play. Like, no, I'm not. Like, that's it.

I'm done now. Okay, I've listened to every Ryan podcast show 12 years. I know I'm a fucking loser. Doesn't feel like a compliment, man. Okay. I'll just try to make this quick. I have a friend that I talk about everything with. You actually read one of his emails a while back.

Like, look at you guys now, your email buddies. Him and I are currently single and frequently dating to find the one. He recently went on a third date with a girl he was really starting to enjoy. That third date was outside, walking in a downtown area in the sun. This is where my friend noticed that this girl has a mustache. Once he saw the stache, he could not unsee it the rest of the date. Trying to push through like the warrior that he is, they ended up back at his place watching a movie and proceeded

to make out, which point he started to feel her legs and felt hair on her legs. This is where he drew the line apparently and called it quits. Right in the middle of the makeout session, I guess.

I don't know if it led do that. I'm led to believe. Yeah. All right. Him and I have shared several dating war stories over the years, and I have a working theory I wanted to share with the focus group here. Now we're cooking. I think that people are doing the same things or have these controllable turnoffs that they have no idea that they are doing.

I think you're right. The problem is they have no idea, so they keep doing the same things on every date. And I would say maybe 60%, 70% of the time, the other person is turned off by a common characteristic. It's a vicious cycle. My friend can't unsee the mustache, but what can he do about, can he send the girl a text or be a psychopath and tell her in person that she has hair growing on her lip. Put it on this girl's radar. This is giving her a better chance at her next opportunity.

This is keen to the person who tells you when you're having something in your teeth. I think he meant to say akin. I don't know. My friend thinks this is crazy, but I think this kind of communication is just what the current dating

climate needs let me know your thoughts and thanks for the long read that wasn't that long you should see some of these it'd be fucking great we'd all be more efficient can't do it now it's not gonna work you can only do it i think after you've been dating her together for a while or potentially married like my like my wife and i we have like a great code thing like if she's got like a booger or i've got like food on my face or something like there's just no there's no sensitivity it's like hey clean your shit up would i've done that in the first like month of us absolutely not yeah like so it's just the timing thing man like because you're right like she probably has absolutely

no idea and that sucks but you act that you're like the white knight coming and being like yep like I'm gonna solve all her problems I'm gonna make her life better guess who's not gonna appreciate that even though it will be for her betterment her how's it going

hey I don't want to see you again but a heads up for your future you have a mustache it was great to spend some again, but a heads up for your future. You have a mustache. It was great to spend some time with you. Best of luck in the future. Yeah, best of luck. The female mustache is a tricky one, though, and it makes me think this one's not super apparent.

You know, if it was a sunlight thing or whatever, you know, just glistening, it hit it at the right angle. It's been too many days since the last pass. Yeah. Yeah. But then the leg confirmation part of it. Yeah. I don't know.

Uh, these are fixable things, man. I didn't choose to have hair like this. So the fixable shit, you know, it's like when somebody overweight calls me bald and I'm like, all right,

okay. Got it. So, you know, I like this guy's idea. It's just not, there's no town. There's no town like this. What do we call it? Reality town? TV show?

It's probably a bad script written on this premise somewhere. Like this guy's just going to say whatever that nobody else ever says. But yeah, it's called Curb Your Enthus curvy enthusiasm the guy already had seinfeld under his belt so i don't know kyle you got anything you ever any anything close you ever done anything like this yeah but like it's like what steve said it's like you pretty much have to be you have to be all like on the same page all right like humor wise and safety wise like feeling good around each other like i'll do it now. And even sometimes I take a swing and a miss.

It was like, I thought that was funny. She's actually upset. I'll be like, you know, like our legs touch. I'm like, Whoa,

sandpaper. And she's like, what the fuck? I was like, I'm sorry. It kind of hurt. I wasn't ready for that. She'll be like,

she'll leave. And then it'll be, you know, she'll leave the room. She'll leave. She'll leave the room or something, you know, maybe even in a jesting way,

but it's sort of like, all right, all right. That one missed. That one missed. I've had some some hits but that was a miss uh and the other thing i would say is for this particular person you know some some women just like they shaved three times a week and the shit just comes back like some people like i'm i'm not one of those people like i still got a patch right here it's it's tough it's tough to get it all to come in, but some people just can't stop. So this person might be shaving three, four times a week and it's still, can't do much. Maybe come back with five o'clock shadow on your legs or something. I think that that's the risk you run when you're like, oh, well, maybe I'll say something. It

should be happy. It's like, yeah, asshole, I just shaved yesterday and I did it. I can't do it every day. Sorry. So it's like sort of like giving people golf like unsolicited golf tips or or, you know, like, you know, we've talked about weight room. It's like, yeah, maybe it would help but no, but people don't want that. So you can't really like you're not really going to be a white knight in all these situations. In fact, you're

probably going to be a little sick to your stomach once you say something and somebody's like, yeah, I know I got a fucking problem, dude. So it's like you you're not gonna be what's well if you're like hey well like if it's mayonnaise yeah maybe it's not mayonnaise but i'm saying if it's like a thing that somebody could be changing about themselves that you think they could be changing and they're like hey actually i know i'm dealing with it and this it's like it's just you shouldn't assume that you got the keys to fix this problem even though you know maybe it would help you be more attracted to her or whatever it's just i

would just mind your business that's a pretty pretty good policy on this thing just mind your business and sorry sorry that you know you're turned off by stuff yeah you might have a shitty mole you might have some weird going on the back of your ear you don't even notice you know what i mean now granted there's not a lot of guys that are like, I kind of like a little facial hair on my girl. You don't hear that a lot. Yeah. So, you know, we all have deal breakers. You know, some have more tolerance.

Some don't. It'd be great. But, you know, when you're not together, like imagine if we took this back to the other email where the girl sat down and the guy who was four foot seven got off the stool what if she stayed and then he came back she's like so look you're really short and i'm so not into that but let's have a drink you know although that guy who knows maybe he would have stayed yeah but that's not a fixable problem that's yeah this guy is right like this is a fixable problem i'm just talking about the brashness of it and by the way like save us the follow followup emails on this one. Don't tell us about your wife and how you were the two that actually like,

not, not like, yeah, yeah. The third date I told her she needed to cut her hair and it's just, we're honest with each other. Just send it to a different show. We're not,

we're not interested. We got a sperm donor one here. It might need to clear this one. Kyle, I haven't read that one yet. Let's do revenge. We know pettiness on this show. Let's do it. 26, 5'11", 175.

Not the biggest dude, but pretty lean and do mostly calisthenics other than occasional squats. Okay. This guy's limber. I kicked up a flip-flop in my hand the other day. I was walking down to the beach to finish Abrams book.

I obviously made the catch, but I took a step. I was like, what the fuck is that? More calisthenics. I'm going to just keep talking about it, not doing it, but I'm giving this guy props is my point. Backstory. A few months ago, I got a job in a new city, so I needed to find a place to live.

I put the word out to a few people and turned out that a friend of a friend of a friend in the area, two friends are moved. Do we all have that? Yeah. Got it. Was looking for a tenant. I got in contact with the dude, did a FaceTime session. It was all set to move in for three months or so while I look for a more permanent living situation. Okay, so this guy doesn't know the guy, FaceTime, he's looking for

three months until he has something else. So he's looking to upgrade. I'm just telling you any transaction I've ever heard that starts with, hey, this is what I want to do now, but I'm actually looking to do this later on. Don't do that. Don't do it in interviews. Never works out. Like, hey, we want to hire you for this job. But let me tell you

all my interests outside of this place. Let's start there. What I really want to do is not this. So this is what he says. Okay. Unfortunately, the guy ended up ghosting me. So I had to pivot to an Airbnb for a while. I was pissed off at the time, but he probably found

a longer term deal. Part of the game. All good. Probably exactly what happened. It's a good outlook. Good attitude. Fast forward to today, I joined a local tennis league and have been playing a lot with this really cute girl. She and I have great chemistry on and off the court. We've been meeting up almost every week to play or just hang

out. During one of our get-togethers, though, she casually mentioned that she has a boyfriend. This is obviously a deal-breaker, but after various conversations, I'd come to find out it's the exact same dude that goes to me before I moved here. Small world. Now, I'm not Nicola Jokic with my court

reads, but I'm not Westbrook either. Topical. The lingering touch when passing tennis balls. Only asking me out for drinks when we're playing with other people. The change of topic when her boyfriend is mentioned around me. I'm pretty sure the tennis girl is interested. Normally, I would never go after a girl in a relationship,

but this guy really rubbed me the wrong way. I quickly got over the initial ghost, but he texted me a month ago asking if I was still moving in. This is three months after the date discussed. I also found out my friend who lives in a different city and never even hinted at moving that he was asking her if she still needed a place to live before he messaged me again. Whoa. I really like the friendship and tennis. The girl also has hot friends that would probably become unavailable if I went after her.

Yes, unless her friends suck too. If I went after her, that would close out. Her friend group also doesn't really overlap with Rent Reggie. That's what he named this guy. So I'd probably never have to see him. However, maybe this is the universe telling me to get revenge. It's almost too much of a coincidence to pass up. Obviously, it's better for me socially and morally to not pursue, but it's like going out for ice cream when you have fruit in the fridge what do you guys do in this situation look revenge you want to talk petty you want to talk revenge i'll listen to you all fucking day all right i got a list but this this guy you got jammed up on something that wasn't it wasn't like you guys both on the living situation.

He fucked it up more than you fucked it up, but you weren't committing to a long-term tenant. And then for him to follow up the text message, it doesn't make any sense. Now you're going to sleep with his girlfriend. That's an aggressive step. All right. Now,

if she wants to sleep with you because she wants to sleep with you and you want to sleep with her because you want to sleep with her. It's all science doing a long time. People are going to keep doing it. All right. But if there's an extra part of you, let's let me ask you this question if she had a boyfriend who wasn't a potential short-term roommate months ago would you want to sleep with her more or less yeah that's how i was gonna say i think i think he was happy to i think he was happy to find out that bit of information for validation

here. Yeah. I would suggest at this stage, at least again, I don't know. You're 26. Maybe you don't care. If that makes you want to sleep with her more because of that,

like this not working out, isn't a huge shock. You didn't, you didn't even know the guy. You only want to be there three months. You told him you're going to be somewhere else. I don't know why he followed up. Sounds like he's not a great planner

either. It all worked out for you. If you want to sleep with her, okay, but are you more into her because the housing thing didn't work out? That's where I'd say that's kind of fucked and I think it's aggressive.

I've done this before. You don't feel good coming on the on the outside of it so play tennis no the revenge bang oh okay it was it was like a year it's like a year or two we'll give the short version a year or two removed out of high school my friend went to jail for like eight months non-violent crime of course and And so when I get out, his, his friend, my acquaintance was like going after his girlfriend of many years, like kind of hard. And I just didn't like it. So I just kind of went after his girlfriend, sealed the deal. He found out those people like are divorced now and have kids, but it's just like, I didn't really want to be in the middle of this whole thing. And I put myself in there on purpose. So like, well, well, like you got like a couple minutes of, yeah, stuck it to that guy.

You know, there's there's fallout after this. And it's like kind of I kind of wish I did it differently. I thought I was being like a hero here, at least feeling like like somebody somebody bad was getting what they deserve. But now it's like now, you know, I'm in this weird web that I didn't need to be in at all. Eight, four,45 till I die. Long time ago. I love the idea of Kyle being like, I'm going to I got my friends back. I'm going to hook up with this chick. Like, do it for the dudes.

Do it for the dudes. Taking it for the dudes. You ever sleep with anybody's girlfriend while he was in jail? I have not. So I can't really chime in here. What I would say is man, just make sure you like this girl. Yeah, what you said, Ryan.

If you actually do like her and you're interested and she seems to be genuinely interested in you, just let it happen, but just don't do it just out of spite. Kyle put it well. It's not going to be good for you in the long run. The funnier email would have been if it took a different term was like,

I really like this girl. I'm not sure if she's interested in me. I found out her boyfriend is this guy, whatever. I don't care about that guy. I never lived with him. I don't really even know him. He jammed me up with a thing. And I actually legitimately like her.

I don't care about her friend group. I like her. And how do I pursue? And it would be unbelievable to not tell her, but then be like, I hate guys that just can't put together a plan. There are a couple of nuggets in there, though. Yeah. There are a couple of little nuggets of like, so it sounds like, was he trying to get the girl to move in? And that fell through.

And that's maybe why he texted this guy back a month later being like, hey, are you still planning on moving in? And if that's the case, and she's talking to you and just doesn't want to talk about him and is pumped playing tennis with you, sounds like she's open, dude. I'm just saying. Oh, man. It does sound like it. But again, you know,

it just seems it's, he didn't wrong you enough definitely have you want to do this definitely not fucking psycho what is a legitimately good example of okay what what would like the wrong half to be for them this okay i just told you is there one but you even said yourself you didn't think it was worth it it was a big deal though at the time now i mean i was like fresh out of high school at the time it seemed like a huge deal if he were to maybe fill out a columbia house cd giveaway in his name and they were roommates and then you know he gets the 12 cds for 99 cents plus the extra one for $1.49 but then he has to keep buying them for 12 months i think you can sleep with somebody's girlfriend if they do that to you.

Did that hurt? Did that happen to you? That's life advice. Please subscribe to the podcast. Thank you to Sir Rudy and to Kyle, who has a new line on the resume today. Un-fucking-believable, man. Your Wikipedia page should be two days long. Let's not ever have one.

Let's not ever have one. You still have so much more room to go. Ring or Spotify. Talk to you Friday. Outro Music you