The Ryen Russillo Podcast - NFL Playoff Draft Revisit, Coach Luke Fickell on Taking Cincinnati to the Playoff, Plus 'Ozark' EP Chris Mundy

Episode Date: January 14, 2022

Russillo shares his thoughts on all six Round 1 NFL playoff matchups (0:37) before revisiting the NFL playoff draft from November with Ceruti and Kyle (13:10). Then Ryen is joined by Cincinnati football head coach Luke Fickell to discuss the 13-0 regular season, matching up with Alabama in the CFP semifinal, QB Desmond Ridder, his friendship with Titans head coach Mike Vrabel, his season as Ohio State interim head coach, building the program at Cincinnati, and more (20:27). Then Ryen talks with ‘Ozark’ showrunner Chris Mundy about building the show’s characters, the difficulty of trimming story lines, writing for kids, working with Jason Bateman, and more (50:18). Finally Ryen answers some listener-submitted Life Advice questions (1:24:04). Host: Ryen Russillo Guests: Luke Fickell and Chris Mundy Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

today's podcast is loaded our nfl playoff weekend preview we revisit our playoff draft for nfl teams check out kyle in this one we're also going to talk to luke fickle the head coach of cincinnati on what he learned in his one year at Ohio State and what he's learned after playing Alabama in the college football playoff. An incredible year for the Bearcats. And Chris Mundy is the showrunner, producer of Ozark Season 4, coming out on Netflix in a couple weeks.

And life advice. I wasn't quite sure what I was going to open with today, but I knew I had to do some NFL. But I'm like, you know what? I probably should go out, get something to eat, leave the house a bit. Wow, Golden State, Milwaukee's on. Okay, that didn't go great

for Golden State. And that was Milwaukee doing that without Drew Holiday. That was scary. That was scary stuff. But with no Draymond Green, I don't know how much we can put into it, but at least for a night there, what could be a

potential finals preview. It'll be interesting kind of how this game is treated if that ends up being the finals preview matchup, because that was horrifying if you were Golden State. So shout out to Milwaukee, who I believe now 16-3 when they have their three guys. But again, Drew didn't even play last night. They've had

DiVincenzo back. And if you look at where Milwaukee was after kind of, hey, we just won it and we're starting the season early to like another point after their, their start was kind of lingering around 500. The bucks are, you could argue are actually kind of horrifying. But we'll see. We'll see.

Because without Draymond, I know that we can't fully, fully, you know, that to me is not a, Hey, this is Milwaukee and this is golden state. And this is the gap between them because no Draymond,

and then Klay still slowly working himself back in. Steph's been struggling now for a couple weeks, and the offense now for almost a month has been bottom third for Golden State. All right, let's talk football because that's more important because we have the postseason starting. We've got two matchups on Saturday, three on Sunday, and then a Monday nighter here in Los Angeles. I'm going to go through all six games, some intense research, some not as intense. I'm going to give you my picks, and then we're going to go back and revisit

our playoff draft, which was with all three guys here, Kyle and Steve, that we did back in November. All right, let's start with Kansas City at Pittsburgh. Kansas City has a couple issues. The offensive line in the right tackle position. Tyree Kill clearly hurt closing out the season. But they met three weeks ago, and it was 36-10. And Watt played, I think, 55% of those snaps. Just Pittsburgh offensively, I have a hard time believing they're going to go into Kansas City on a Sunday night

and pull this one out. I just don't. Maybe they keep it closer because the Hill dynamic changes a bunch of things, but no surprise picking Kansas City at home against Pittsburgh's offense that I just cannot fathom how they'd be able to keep up with Kansas City even without Hill. Okay, Pats

at Bills. That one's your Saturday night matchup. The spread on this one is interesting, and I'm going to point this out because I gave it out as the pick that doesn't make any sense. A lot of public money on the Bills. Not the most. The Bills are minus four at home. Apparently, it's going to be really cold again. I put

more stock into the Bills beating the Patriots a few weeks ago, 33-21. Josh Allen had arguably his best game of the season. Statistically, you could argue a few of the other ones, maybe even Kansas City, but it really felt like him having to do everything. He threw it 47 times, threw it for 314. He ran it for 64 yards, and there were a couple monumental runs and conversions that he had. I mean, he's had plays in the last couple of weeks against the Chets. I don't know how many people that are listening to

this. Maybe just let's admit it. We all have live stuff's going on. My job is to do this. But if you haven't watched a Josh Allen game from start to finish, like the full experience of physically what he is capable of doing, then you're depriving yourself of one of the great joys in the NFL right now. There are throws that are incomplete. Like one my all-time favorite athletes was the vince carter phase in the beginning where i wanted to see his missed dunks and i know i've said that a million times but it just it puts into perspective like what guys are capable of alan has some moments that you're just i can't you know and again if it's cold i think the biggest disservice that buffalo did to themselves and they lost the first matchup, where New England only threw it three times, was they never really...

I just feel like they didn't give Allen as much of a chance to try to throw the football downfield. Because I thought he kind of loosened up once they were sort of pressured in to opening things up. And then a late tip pass and all that kind of stuff. So I like Buffalo in this game, even though on the pick side of it, I just said fade me on this one. Mack Jones has probably had his worst stretch of the season. You take out the Jacksonville game where they put up 50, including that though,

five picks in the last four weeks, only eight the first 13. A lot of man coverage the second matchup here. And, you know, J.C. Jackson who's a good corner for New England, Diggs has kind of torched him um and he's got him for three touchdowns 233 and by the way here's another note since 2010 rookie qbs are zero and six in their first playoff game two and four against the spread so the pats line on my

fan duel pick doesn't make any sense and that was just me going hey here are all the reasons i like the bills in this game so i'm just picking the bills but for the fan duel thing i said let's just go new england plus a four vegas at cincinnati cincinnati's actually favored in this one as you know five and a half how about some burrow stats he's completed over 70 of his passes but he's done it throwing it 8.9 yards per attempt number one in both the youngest quarterback to ever do it in the history of the NFL. But, he's been sacked 51 times. And the previous 54 quarterbacks have been sacked 50 times in a season.

Zero have made the Super Bowl. But that's not what we're picking. We're not picking to win the Super Bowl. We're picking them to beat Vegas. I think Cincinnati gets it done at home. Offensively though, there's some weird stuff here where you can look at some metrics and say both offenses are a little weird statistically DVOA stuff Cincy and Vegas are pretty close on the season but on the weighted stuff clearly Cincy has moved and separated themselves a little bit

points per game Cincinnati's about five points better Vegas is actually better with the yard so I think that's kind of where some of the mix-up stuff happens. They met on November 21st. Cincinnati won that one 32-13, and it was only a plus one in the Raiders on the turnover. They had two, Cincinnati had one, but the Raiders did have a couple late turnovers there that opened that one up and made it look worse. But here's the crazy thing about Burrow, because as I've said in the last five-plus years, when I used to bank on completion percentage to really give me an idea of who an NFL quarterback was, Now I don't really pay that much attention to it because there's just so many throws in there that are easier throws. It's just different. When you completed 60% back in the day, that was like a great mark to get past. If you're not over 60 now, something's wrong with you.

But the crazy thing about Burrow is he has that completion percentage that we mentioned with the yards per attempt. And that's the exact same thing that he did at LSU. In 2019, Burrow completed 76.3% of his passes, which at the time, I believe, was the all-time record. I think he broke Colt McCoy's, which seems impossible that anybody could do that to Colt. But it was almost 11 yards per attempt, 10.8. So the crazy thing is Burrow's actually doing the same stuff that he did at college that was record-setting, I think until maybe Mac Jones passed him in a couple things that he's now doing with Cincinnati.

So Cincinnati's the pick against a Vegas team that feels better with Connor. But offensively, there's still a lot of weird things, and it would just really probably come down to the ends trying to get pressure on Burrow, who not only gets sacked a lot, but I think tries to keep plays going longer, where I think over the course of the game, there's always a few that are on Burrow himself. Philadelphia at Tampa. Tampa, huge favorite in this one.

And I'm going to tell you why. It's because Philly hasn't beaten anybody good. They just haven't. The Philly story is nice in that Sirianni and everybody figured out who they weren't after a month of trying to throw the football all over the field, which didn't really make any sense. They shifted things. I don't know the exact date where they became really run heavy.

Actually, Tampa, who statistically has held up really well against the run over the last couple of years, they've been leaking a bit there now. That's something to pay attention to. Weapons wise, you go, okay, how healthy are all these guys? Now with no Antonio Brown, who, by the way, all of you that had an open mind about Antonio Brown, I don't know what the number is.

I don't know the percentage. You feel like that mind is a little less open now as we get more info. The guy went to the Bucs and asked for his bonuses to be paid up front that he hadn't gotten yet. So there's rumblings that he kind of knew he was going to bounce no matter what. I just think, I don't know, a lot of this stuff is very predictable. It's like, well, the Arians may have to see what Arians has to say. You know what Arians really wants to say?

This guy was a pain in the ass. He didn't get his bonuses because he was suspended because he had a fake Vax card and the team still kept him on the team because Brady wanted to keep him. Brady wanted to keep him. And then Antonio Brown goes on a podcast where we should all aspire to be a little tougher questioning than purple vest guy. Um, but it's just, as we get more info, I just wonder the people that were like, wait a minute, this may not be all on AB. I'm like, is it really? Okay. All right.. Philadelphia, here are their wins to go 9-8. I'm just going to go over the last

whatever. I can pull it up again here if you want to to make sure we don't leave anything out. This is my concern with Philadelphia. Their wins. Washington, the Giants. Washington, the Jets. The Saints. The Broncos and the Lions. Before that, it was the Panthers. When they beat the

Saints, they beat Trevor Simeon. They're 0-6 against the playoff teams. So if you look at every team, every playoff team against other playoff teams, the Eagles haven't beaten any of them. They're 0-6. So I like the story. I like the Hurts turnaround. I like the coaching part of this where Sirianni just get dumped on because he was a little uncomfortable in a Zoom intro press conference. But I can't buy into a team where I go, you know, there's a little Miami in there where Miami starts off 1-7 and then they have that winning streak and everybody's like, this is amazing. I think it's okay sometimes to point out every now and then and be like,

you kind of snuck in there a little. And that's what I think Philadelphia did. It's kind of like that split college football conference where one division, you're like, wait, that team won the division? Well, how did they play? They didn't have to play anybody good on the other side, and then the back end of their thing was terrible, and then they got the good teams at home.

Boom, 10-2. And you're like, okay. Next game. 49ers at Dallas. Dallas is favored by three. I was going to do one of those generic who has the most pressure on them. Which ranked the quarterbacks and who has the most pressure?

I started thinking about Dallas and I went, you know who doesn't have any pressure? It's Dallas. Think of it this way. Everybody thinks Mike McCarthy already stinks. Dak got paid. Zeke got paid in the only situation he would have been paid. The roster's pretty good. The defensive players are young.

They just got there. And all the public money, you want to talk about the Bills being the public favorite? This isn't even close. The Niners are getting 80% of the public money. 80%. That's a big number. So nobody thinks Dallas is even going to cover. And you're basically picking San Francisco because you feel good about that Rams win in week 18. So I'm going to pick Dallas at home in this.

Dallas is 10-3 against the spreads, best in the NFL this season. Garoppolo, who is lighting up the completion percentage of the deal, is still turning the football over a little bit. San Francisco will get their left tackle back, Trump Williams for this one. I really think that the public response to how San Francisco closed the season has kind of changed them into this darling where I think Garoppolo very clearly is going to be somebody who you know

capable for a nice game here or there and and and then we'll remind you why the Niners moved up to go ahead and take trade lands so I'm taking Dallas at home. Arizona at LA. Rams minus four. Split their games. Both teams winning on the road. The second one, Kyler Murray actually threw for 383, but no touchdowns and zero picks.

Tough win. Stafford's, it was Stafford's last game that went against Arizona, and they were the better team in this game. Stafford's last game without a pick., and they were the better team in this game. Stafford's last game without a pick. He's had eight in the last four. The Rams actually, though, have gone 3-1, and they've won five of their last six, the only loss being that Niners game that I just got done talking about.

But Arizona's 5-2 against current playoff teams. The Rams, 2-5. I'm going to take Arizona to win this one outright in LA, which I know you're not surprised about. Okay, guys. Draft. I already knew when I did one of the picks it was the dumbest pick ever, and it turned out to be that way.

But let's recap what we have, Saruti. I don't even remember who had the first pick. This is back on November 12th, correct? Yeah, this was basically right before. It was nine, right before week 10 on a Friday. And Kyle had the first pick. Let me just go through the order. I can do it really quickly, I guess. Kyle had the Bucs. He picked them first. I had second pick, took the Rams. You had third pick, took the Cardinals. And then we did the little snake draft action. So you had another pick. You took the Bills. I took the packers kyle took the cowboys kyle took

the titans uh i took the ravens sick that was when they actually kind of looked good um you took the chargers then then i mean steal the draft in the fourth round first pick you take the chiefs which is stupid because all of us should have picked them probably in the first round um but i think what their record is probably around 500 at that point they were still kind of in more panic mode yeah i was i'm not i think we all know that know that I was the furthest from anti-Chiefs guy. I don't know why I would have picked them. I guess I took the Chargers ahead of them. I wonder if I did that just to prove a point later on that they'd be in the fourth round.

But anyway, keep moving. I think they were losing like crazy. I think that was the problem at that time. Yeah, it looked like a mess. But I mean, here we are. They're the two seed favorite to make the Super Bowl against. Shocker, shocker. I took the Browns sick pick for me.

Kyle took the Pats. What's up? Then Kyle took the Raiders. Look at you getting a point for sneaking the Raiders in the playoffs. I grabbed the Bengals, which is a nice little savvy pick in the last round, and you closed it out, Ryan, with your Seattle Seahawks. Right, but I do remember specifically, I was like, I do not want to pick Pittsburgh because I'm so sick of watching

the Roethlisberger offense and this thing. And I go, this is stupid. I'll take Seattle. And it was stupid then and it's even dumber now. Although I'll tell you right now, it's a good thing the season's over because Seattle's getting hot at the right time. Wait a minute. Real quick then.

So the Bucs went one. So, Ruby, who did you take with your first pick? The Rams. That was almost... I think they had a trade. Was that around the Vaughn time? I don't know. I thought they should have been one. I was pumped Kyle took the Bucks. I'm like, shit, I get the Rams.

I think they're the favorite. I would say that is not accurate now. The Vaughn Miller trade got you that excited. I do love Vaughn. Big Vaughn guy. Yeah, me too now the vaughn miller trade got you that excited i do love vaughn big bond guy yeah me too big bond guys all right so i'm trying to double check because now i want to find out if we did this november 21st what did they do that got you so excited wait they went through like a losing streak though right in the middle of all this stuff that's weird you picked the ram right in the middle of all this stuff.

That's weird. You picked the Rams. Yeah, you picked the Rams at like a midpoint when they were struggling. If this is November 21st, if I'm to believe. No, no, November 12th. November 12th, so earlier. So it was probably right after I picked them when they hit the downturn.

Sick. Yeah, they lost to the Titans. So it was like their first loss of a bad. They had a bad November. They had a terrible November, and Stafford is still struggling here. But they've actually won some of these games, which he's had... Here's the part with Stafford. If you don't like him, then you go, oh, here we go.

This guy sucks again. Could never get Detroit to the playoffs. But then you're leaving out some of the stuff that he's doing at the end. And then there's me, who I the stuff that he's doing at the end and then there's me who i've heard that he's like really hurt and then it's like okay but if you think he's really hurt and that's excusing the shitty play then why are you giving him credit for that so we can all just go in circles and i'm not sure who the hell's right all right so i'll just i'll just leave it at that i i think he's better than goff is my statement that i'm comfortable with i would agree

so who has the best group then? You have Rams, Green Bay, and Cincy. That's really good. But you have two AFC North teams that aren't in the playoffs. I made a huge mistake picking three AFC North teams, and one of them wasn't the Steelers. By the way, the two teams

that made it that we didn't pick were the Steelers, and nobody picked the Niners either. So I guess... Did anyone pick Philadelphia? Nobody picked Philadelphia either. There you go. They don't even count as the team that got in that didn't get picked.

Wow. So my open work, Kyle. Okay. So Kyle's got. I got everybody, dude. He's got the number one seed in the AFC. No misses. He's got every playoff team.

He's got five. So how are we doing this, by the way? Are we doing a point for making the playoffs? Then are we doing a point for every additional round that you win? I thought it's super simple. Three quarters of a point. Day wins. First weekend. No, kidding. I think it's... You said it really serious. I was like,

alright, let's go. I'll get the spreadsheet. You should be able to follow this unless you're an idiot 0.75 times how familiar are you with german calculus so i i think the best bet would be you know what i kind of want to do is escalating scales here so just add a point like it's a point for the first week and then then it's two points. Point for the playoffs. Two points for wild card. Three points for divisional. Four points for championship.

Yeah. There needs to be some reward for getting the playoffs right. Kyle got all of them right. I have Arizona, Buffalo, Kansas City. I actually like my group a lot here even though I have two misses. So is the second rounders, so the first round buys already get two points?

Yeah. Oh, that's right. It would make sense. It would make sense. There's not a game for them to win, so they already get the second point. All right, so Kyle and I have an extra point. There you go.

That's fine. The road wins are plus 10 in the first round. All right. We'll map it out maybe a little bit more concisely. But I think we have the general. Because I don't like it's just a point for every team, a point for every win. I want the scale to grow the longer you're keeping your teams alive here too.

But at the same time, I don't want it to be like 10 points from the Super Bowl and you could have screwed up everything. And then you win our little deal here. So then where are we at right now? I've got six and then three or four no because two of mine missed the playoffs and then Ryan has one two

I only three three. Yeah, but you've got the Super Bowl favorite likely in the Chiefs. Well, the AFC I think if I had if I had to give a lean here Bucks Cow, Cowboys, Titans, Pats, Raiders, I'd probably lean Kyle. Thank God, because I just made a mess of the QB stock game. So that's good news.

Yeah, he's got a lot of swings at it. All right. I think the deal is winner. Winner gets to pick any place, the dinner, but it has to be a place where there are gift cards available at the front of a CVS checkout. Oh, Chili's. Yeah, so the three of us go Chili's or Outback or maybe a little Olive Garden. You can bring food into Frolic Room, by the way.

Perfect. They don't have a kitchen. You can bring whatever you want. They let you bring your own food. They're like, yeah, we don't have a kitchen they can um you can bring whatever you want they let you bring your own food they're like yeah we don't have we don't have uh food to compete with you so yeah whatever just don't sit at the bar sit at the other thing over there okay all right we're doing that instead we'll get take out we'll go to the frog room all right that is our opening playoff preview up next we're going to talk to Luke Fickle of Cincinnati. Luke Fickle,

an incredible year at Cincinnati. The head coach joins us now. So, if you think back to five years ago, because I was watching an interview you had done recently, you know, you're 4-8 in the first year, to 11-2, to a 13-0 regular season conference champion, first group of five to be in the playoff?

What's this been like? Because I know after the loss to Bama, you said, I don't know that I can really put this in perspective. I need more time. Has enough time passed for you to understand what you've done for this program? No, I mean, I think that's the thing. You just continue to keep moving on.

And I don't know. Some people would say, my wife would tell me that the worst thing i do is never kind of take a pause and try to reflect and you know in some ways people always say you got to reflect and enjoy it and that doesn't excite me um you know but i do think that reflecting helps you learn so i gotta i do enough reflection just to try to learn where we've come from and where we need to continue to grow. But the intriguing thing is just as I reflect upon the growth of the players and the kids and the things that you're trying to do. And we walked in, we talked about blind faith.

And then as we started to have some success, it didn't become as much of a blind faith as it was, hey, you can actually see these things coming to, you know, right in front of our faces. So for me in that, that's what I take out of it is that really the growth, not just the program, but the guys, the kids and the leadership makes me excited about what we're doing. But also trying to look at that. Where we've come from, where we are, where we want to go. There's still a big gap there that, going to take a lot of work. Yeah. You said something though, that I think anybody who, you know, is driven can understand

is that you're almost afraid to appreciate it. Cause if you stop to appreciate it and you feel like you're, you losing the competitive edge, which I'm sure for your profession is like that times a hundred compared to everybody else. Sure. That's what it is. Um, I know in my mind it is, and you know, there's a God, I know there's probably a balance at some point in time and in some things, but, um, you know, if I'm going to enjoy anything, it's still going to be that July 4th week that my family and I go on vacation. That's about the one guaranteed time where I try to say there's going to be a pause that I can hopefully enjoy what it is that we do. Other than that, it's a lot of keep moving forward stuff. What did the Georgia Bowl game do for you going into this year?

Well, I think it gave us as coaches a greater look into what our kids really think. Because, you know, our guys believe in a lot of things, and they are competitive kids. And going into that game, sometimes us as coaches know a little bit more. You even go out to warm-ups and you watch and you see the size and you say, okay, we might have a different perspective where those guys that are in it didn't bat an eye. We preach this whole thing. We don't refer to ourselves as any group of anything or any P anything. We're all the same. We never use that as an excuse.

We never let our kids use that. So we've always kind of preached, there's nothing different. So no excuse if we're playing Alabama or we're playing, you know, our rival in Miami of Ohio. Like it's still the same thing. We all have the same objective

and the same goals. So don't let that be anything different. You know, as a coach, sometimes you use that as a crutch and you recognize as you're getting ready to play Georgia. And our guys didn't. And our guys went out and played that way. They didn't bat a night. Yes, we didn't win. And it didn't come, you know, obviously throughout the finals of the game.

And it's no we're not ever going to use it like a moral victory. But it really showed me that our guys do believe in what it is that we've said. They they are competitive. They recognize and realize and believe that it's not the best team that wins it's the team that plays the best and i think it gave us me in particular and a lot of our coaches more confidence in our kids and what they really believe so going into the year you know the preseason is ranked you know the preseason rankings happened a lot because they're like hey is the quarterback back how do they look in the bowl game? And as somebody who had to vote for the ESPN stuff,

I remember criticizing everybody doing it until I had to do it. And I went, oh, wait. You start to run out of teams. And then you start to default like, oh, I kind of like that QB. So as much as everybody always complains about it, I'm like, feel free to come up with a new concept of doing it. I'm all ears. But a lot of the default stuff happens.

So Ritter comes back. We know the team's talented. We know the secondary and all this different stuff you get forward to transfer um so now there's expectations which is a little different for a group how did you the staff and and the leaders on this team going undefeated i don't care it's just hard to do how do you keep them? How do you keep them motivated every single week pursuing something that hadn't been done before? Well, that was our biggest thing going into the year is we had never, we had always kind of played that underdog role and a chip on your shoulder and we're building. And even the year before going into the year, we weren't the returning champs. We lost in the championship game. So this was definitely a different approach to what it is we're doing. I've obviously been at a place in Columbus and Ohio State that

was used to that. So in my mind, okay, I've been through this. I know the difficulties. I recognize it's harder to handle the praise and some of those things than it is the criticism, at least for me and our team, I think, in general. So that was where kind of going into the whole year I was. We kind of stole a motto of high tides rise all ships. And it was the idea that, hey, we've got these really high-end guys that understand where we've been, you know, the 4-8 season that should have been maybe 1-11.

But they understand where we've been, you know, the four and eight season that should have been maybe one and 11. But they understand where we've been and how hard and the things we've had to do to get where we were. So those guys in general, I didn't worry about. They weren't going to make a slip up. They weren't going to take things for granted. The other seven, 60% of our team is what I worried about. So we really tried to empower and say, these are the guys, the high tide. If you don't live up to their standards, if you don't do what it is that they do,

if you let your mind drip, these things can kill you. And really, those guys did a phenomenal job. I like to say we all did, but the reality is those seniors, those older guys, those guys that went through that 4-8 season really did the unbelievable job of leading and taking care of that locker room so nobody got complacent throughout the entire year when nfl teams call about ritter what do you tell them i tell them that there's nothing that the guy can't do his he's still only scratching the surface um he is the best leader that i've ever been around uh and he's in four years of starting,

he's found four different ways to win football games, meaning he had to win in a certain way as a freshman. He had to win a different way as a sophomore. He had to win a different way as a junior. He won a different way as a senior. Whatever he has to do to win at the next level, he will do. He's proved that to me in every different way.

And I can't say enough great things. Like it's like when someone asks you about your kids, unfortunately, I'm like, I'm sorry, but this is going to sound bad, but there's nothing that he can't do. So then they call your assistants. Because that's what I hear these guys, you know, as you start to list, not that I listen, but Hey, we don't ask head coaches about the guys in the draft because all they do is praise them.

They don't tell us the truth or something. We've got to ask those guys behind the scenes. So I try to tell our guys, look, you guys aren't allowed to say anything about the kids. You can say positive things. Don't tell them anything negative. I will be the one to be as honest as I possibly can and tell them that there's something to be said that I want to be the one to say it. But they don't obviously believe me

and they don't believe the head coaches, I guess. It's an impossible spot, though, because the second you say something negative about a higher profile guy, then people are going to use it against you in recruiting and then it's going to get back to that. I remember, maybe I shouldn't bring up other coaches with you because I know you're not going to start criticizing other guys,

but I just know. I've just been around long enough where I'll hear from somebody be like, Hey, someone so trashed me. And that's something a kid will never, ever forget. There's no doubt. Even if it's honest. I know. I know.

I got one of those back this year from a, from someone who came back and his dad talked to me and said, well, I heard that there were some negative things coming out of your guys's camp about, about him. And it's like, so that's why I went to coach. Coach, you guys do not have to say anything. You all say positive things about the kids. I got that from Brable. He was, you know, obviously an athlete.

I said, you don't have to tell them guys anything. Their job is to find out themselves. Their job is to watch. Their job is to dig. Don't put yourself in a position. You don't have to tell them anything. Now, then he's going to be the next one to call me and ask me but you can tell me but uh and it's true because you love him to death you know and you surely don't want that stuff coming back on your

program or even on your kids yeah no i love that because i was gonna ask you about ravel um you're on that that team together i mean hell you're on the Rose Bowl team, which was your last year. Um, and then, you know, on top of it, he's, he's on your staff in 2011, which is kind of an odd dynamic because you're close and then, you know, urban comes in. So I want to get to some of that stuff, but you are really close with Vrabel. I don't think I quite understood until we started talking before this this that that's still, I guess, one of your best friends, right? Yeah. I mean, both incredibly busy. So the time spent is not nearly as much anymore, but there's no doubt. You've been in four years of college, roommates. There's a lot of things that don't ever go away. And being in the same profession, try to rely upon each other. If you need something, you know somebody's in a very similar situation. Did you ever talk about coaching? Were you guys roommates in college thinking like,

hey, if I ever did it, I was going to do it this way? How did you guys discuss it? He always wanted to be a coach. From the day he walked in, he said, I'm going to be a coach someday when I'm done. And I'm like, you're an idiot. I'm not being a coach. I'm going to med school.

I'm not doing what these idiots do. I mean, these guys spend their whole life doing this stuff of 18 to 22 hours. And then they, you know, who knows? And so I never had any ideas of doing it. He was always going to do it. I got into it. And then obviously him playing 14 years. I just remember after he signed like the second, third, and fourth contract,

I'd always call him and be like, hey, it looks like that coaching thing's out the window now, huh? He'd always be like, no, hell with you. I'm going to coach someday. Two guys in some ways in different paths end up doing a lot of the same things, but you never know. You're on Ohio State staff after a couple other stops and then trestles out. So 2011 is your season. What did you learn in that one season that was kind of like, okay, now that I've done this for a year, I had a plan. I had an idea of what this was. And now that I know, what were some of those things you were like, okay, I had no idea.

I mean, we could have hours and hours of podcasts about the things, the notes I took and the mistakes I made. The unique thing about it, I mean, the unique thing about it is after it, I learned I didn't want to be a head coach. So I was perfectly good with going back to being a defensive coordinator, being a linebacker coach. I mean, just the things that were taken away doing that, meaning some of the connections with the players,

the time spent with the guys, those individual meetings, a smaller group of guys, those relationships that to me were, I loved about coaching. I don't know if it was a unique year, but it was completely taken away. You're pulled in so many different directions. You lose that real intimate connection with a smaller group of guys. It was very difficult. And I did not enjoy maybe one bit of the nine months or whatever it was of that situation. So for the most part,

I said, look, I'm good. Everybody has this idea that I want to be a head coach. I want to be a head coach. And then that opportunity, after that, I'm like, I don't want to be a head coach. I'm good. This is what I enjoy to do. This is much more enjoyable to me. And so I went about my business and it was probably three and a half, four years. And all of a sudden that passion switched again. And I wanted to be a head coach. Now I could reflect upon all those mistakes that I made in that eight, nine months, um, as I moved forward. Cause it wasn't, it wasn't really like you're trying to build something, you know, in that situation, it was, you're trying to manage something. If you can manage this, maybe you have an opportunity. That's not what building a program

or coaching is really about. And, uh, so I learned more than anything. If you try to manage things, I think it's going to fail. If you try to be somebody you're not, it's going to fail. You've got to look at how you want to go forward and grow things and you got to be yourself. Yeah. And for anybody that maybe, you know, isn't as locked in, um, if you go back 10 years ago, you take over as Trestle's out, you know isn't as locked in um if you go back 10 years ago you take over as trestles out you know there's rumors that maybe urban's coming in and it was a really tough year like you've described it really well that it wasn't like hey i got the job let's start figuring this out one three year five year plan it was like you're a buckeye lifer hang out for a bit go from dc to you know the record wasn't great, but I don't even know. Like, I

wonder, do you look at that year and did, did it piss you off more removed from it being like, wait, people actually think I can't do this. And then it sounds like it's almost the opposite where you go, I'm all set with that. Like I I'm good. I don't want to do any of that because it wasn't a real coaching job. It was like a steward of the program is what it felt like. No, it was. And I remember the very first time they came to me and said, okay, we're going to ask you to do this. You can hire a guy for your position, but you're just going to hire him for like six or seven months. So find an older retired guy, maybe that you could fill your spot. And I'm like, I'm looking at him like, do you want us to

try to be successful? Or I mean, like, no, we're going to hire a guy. We're going to give him a contract because otherwise to our kids, it would be an example of like, oh, we're going to hire a guy. We're going to give him a contract because otherwise to our kids, it would be an example of like, oh, they're just trying to manage the situation. So we've got to try to attack the situation and do the best thing we can. So you got to let me at least go hire somebody with a contract.

Right. And who would want the job? Hey, we're canning you after a year. So here's the zip up. And so, you know, I, Hey, let's remove the, the interim tag and let's just call you, you know, you're going to do what you're going to do, but why put things that are going to bring a negative connotation to what it is we're trying to do. Um, so it was, like you said, very, very difficult in a lot of different ways and a lot of situations. And, uh, it's not really coaching when you're just trying to manage through things. Um, but nonetheless, you, you, I learned, uh, I think everybody learned

a lot about it and I learned a lot about myself, you know, and you learn a lot about the people that you can really kind of count on and trust. And, uh, happened to be one of those was my college roommate and Brable. And, and, uh, you know, so that was a unique kind of start for for a lot of different in a lot of different ways is there anything else from that time that you go you know because you you hinted at it here a little bit of like being yourself and and making like again you were being asked to do a bunch of things being pulled in a bunch of different directions where saturday was just part of the job uh which is not the way to do the job was there something more specific when you sat and talked with your staff? You know, you're taking over a team that isn't doing well since now you turn around

immediately. But were there a couple of things, like a couple of ideas that you go, OK, this time around, this is specifically how I would do this differently? Well, yeah, I mean, and like I said, it's about being yourself, like try to evaluate like, OK, everybody's got different ideas of leadership. Leaders, in my opinion, just make others around them better. I mean, you can have 95 million different definitions of leadership. But there are, you know, things you've got to be able to do.

I think in order to be a leader, you've got to be consistent. In order to be a leader, you've got to be able to motivate. In order to be a leader, you've got to be able to get people to buy in. And if you're not authentic, you're not yourself, whoever that is, it's really hard to follow, you know? And I know specifically I made about a month long decision on what I needed to do that at that time was, you know, and I made a decision that I needed to be as much like coach Trestle as I possibly could. Um, because I thought that's what the players could handle. And I thought that's what the players could handle.

And I thought that's what the coaches around me could handle in order for us to have a chance to be successful. And so I went around about trying to do as many things as I possibly could like coach trestle would do. And, uh, I couldn't be consistent. I really couldn't lead because my, you know, it couldn't be authentic in what I was doing. And I really, in the long run, couldn't get people to truly follow me when the situations were tough. And, uh, it was probably about halfway through the season that I recognized that not that I was, you know, miserable, but I was, you know, not able to even pour out, you know, who I was and what I really wanted to do.

And, um, you know, but at that point in time, it's like, can you change? I mean, you're halfway through trying to manage so a lot of different things. Like I said, intentional decisions that I recognize and realize were really bad ones. And, and, uh, but helped me in the long run to kind of learn who I, who I am as a person as well. And as a coach and as a leader. All right. I'll ask this. Have you watched the Bama tape yet?

Uh, four times. What's that been like? No, it's, uh, it's difficult, but you know,

when I, when there's, when you have, when I have wins sometimes, like if that would have been a, well, obviously that would have been a way we'd have moved on. But,

um, even like our championship game, I don't know that I've watched the championship game in full, to be honest. I've watched parts of it and pulled the clips and the things. Because sometimes when you win, I don't want to watch as close maybe right away or for sure right away, like on a plane ride home. I'm not going to watch because I'm going to nitpick and not even be able to enjoy six hours of a win. When I lose, I can't get that thing in my hand fast enough so that at least my mind hopefully can see and have a chance to recognize some things to then be able to relax because now I can start to correct things in my mind. So I don't, I know I'm messed up and I know that might be a backwards way, but it was as fast as I could get to

review it three or four times. Honestly, that doesn't surprise me. As I asked, Ted, I didn't think there was ever a chance that you were going to say we haven't watched it yet. You probably wanted to see it. What did you see? I see that we did not

play. And I'm thinking even more defense. I knew it was going to be a difficult offense. We were going to have to find a way to make some plays. And big games like that, if you're going to beat the champs, you have got to make plays. And that's easier said than done. We understand that.

But, I mean, like, legitimately, come down with one-on-one catches. Make some people miss. come down with one-on-one catches, make some people miss. What I saw was we weren't far from what we needed to do, both offensively and defensively. We did not play well. And I'm not saying if we'd have played well, we'd have beat them. But the first two series, we didn't – defensively, didn't play well.

Throughout the game, we didn't tackle well. But we we settled in played really well in the middle of the game and then you know obviously when we gave up the last touchdown after a couple big plays um but deep down inside after watching the three-fourth night like we weren't far off it wasn't a mismatch there was no doubt um you know we would change some things but you know we matched up really well on the back end. They did not hurt us or beat us in that way. And, you know, I actually have a lot more – not to say I didn't have respect for our kid, but I really was impressed with at least how they played,

their aggressive nature, and there was no hesitation. They weren't like, oh, my my gosh we're playing Bama you come at this from you know you were one of the blue bloods right you play at Ohio State you're on the staff you're there I mean that's you were identified that way and now you're with Cincinnati and so just full transparency I doubt you ever listen to the podcast or anything but like for guys that know how much I'm into it like I do think there's a big gap between the power five and the group of Five. However, having said that, towards the end of the year, I'm like, look, I don't think the challenge is the same for Cincinnati, but I want them in the playoff. And the fact that you lost the Bama game, and then it turns into, oh, see, this is

what happens. And I would say, wait a minute, we've seen blue blood programs get smashed in the playoff, and nobody says that. So I also remember over the years of having all the coaches come by to ESPN, you know, we'd have Bielema come by when he was at Wisconsin. He's always great to talk to. And I would say, what do you think the gap is between the Big Ten and the SEC? And he'd say, nothing. It's totally manufactured. You guys are full of shit on and on and on. He goes to Arkansas. And I was like, okay, I'm asking the question again. He'd be like, it's not even close. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And I guarantee.

Right, right. And I get it. You can't, you can't answer the question and say, hey, it's not close. And to your, to your lane of it, you may say, hey, we're Cincinnati. Okay. We're Cincinnati. This is what our talent level is. We don't care about the rest of that stuff.

So what's the best way to describe the difference between the two there's a difference there's a there is a big difference and i stood down there on monday night and watched there's a difference um but i don't think the different like you say i don't use those words but you say the league so the big 10 as far as the aac you know no the big 10 in the top three, which I would say are the blue bloods. The others I really truly believe aren't that much different. There isn't, you know, and I, and I, and I wholeheartedly believe that if I was in the big 12 here soon, I would say the same thing.

If I was in the big 10, I'd say the same thing, but there's a difference. Okay. And, and I, and I can always say this with even the playoff stuff. same thing if i was in the big ten i'd say the same thing but there's a difference okay and and i and i can always say this with even the playoff stuff like we didn't want to carry a flag for the group of whatever or the p whatever's right i think we carried the flag for the non-blue bloods like had that been michigan state on a year where they had one loss. They aren't getting in if Ohio State and Clemson and Alabama and Notre Dame are there. I mean, it's just the reality. And I think there's more than 90% of college football is that way. So regardless if they're in the AAC or they're not the Blue Bloods in the Big Ten or the SEC.

So the gap there, there's still maybe a little bit, but it's only because of facilities and things. The gap between the tops, there's a difference. There's no doubt there's a difference. Just the natural size of the guys up front is where the biggest gap is. Now, I'll also tell you that the beautiful thing about football in general is it's not the best team that always wins. When you've got that many people and that many moving parts, it's the team that plays the best. And if you've got a really good Cincinnati team, I mean, we've got a chance to have nine guys drafted. But we still don't have maybe some of the guys that we played against or won the national championship.

So there's a difference. But I think in football, I think you have an opportunity when you have a right team that surely can play with a lot of others. And I don't care what anybody says. If they really break the film down and watch our game against Alabama, defensively, they were, you know, our offense was struggling, was going to have a tougher time. But there's us defensively, our offense was struggling, was going to have a tougher time. But there's us defensively.

I know they ran the ball well, but there wasn't a big gap there, I can assure you. It wasn't like they were not going to solve the ball. And the score might be a little bit more lopsided. But I'm telling you, I feel a lot better about our team and how we played than I did when I walked off the field. And I really do mean this because once you start to get things rolling at your own place, where now you've been there five years,

and the talent that you have, and the draft picks that are going to go out, and the fact that the transfer portal, I think, you now become a very realistic destination. Some of the guys are like, hey, I may have been all these stars, but I'm behind two other guys,, I want to run the football. And so it can become, you know, BYU depending up down year, but you look at the talent they can put in the league and like Utah, if Utah wasn't in the PAC 12 right now, people would be going, Oh, I wonder if there's some kind of gap and there's absolutely no gap for them whatsoever. So I do believe with

your program specifically. Um, yeah, I, I'm not going to say you're the same roster as Bama or Georgia or Ohio State, but it's not so much about, you know, I would look at the schedule, but from the actual guys playing, your 22 that are playing there, yeah, I want to compare you to the middle or the top. It's just not, I agree with you on that part. But the key too is like, even if you've got a really good team, I mean, if you've got the key parts, like for... I mean, if you've got a quarterback... I mean, we could have a great football team. We know there's a gap, and if we don't have a great quarterback, you're not in the back. You don't have a chance.

You've got NFL corners, you've got an NFL receiver... And you've got two NFL corners. So, the positions... You know where your gap is going to be. But if you have a great quarterback and you have some great skill that you can do some things, you can match up and you have a chance to be the better team on that day and play better because we've got 32 seniors. I don't think Alabama has it. The Blue Blood teams

they'll be lucky to have six or seven true seniors on their team. You've got a team of 32. They're going to be different, but because of the game of football, you're going to have a greater opportunity to compete if you've got the specific positions, too.

Last two things. What has this done for you recruiting-wise and transfer-wise? Here's what we don't want to, we don't want to change. And, and I did learn a little bit. So when I was playing at Ohio state, I think we were just a good team. And I don't know if it was his national brand and whatever, whatever, whatever. We played really well one through my career. And I think we became a little more national.

And I look back at it and our coaches maybe changed how they recruit a little bit because I became a GA. And I really kind of always watched that and said, I think the way they changed in their recruiting because of maybe what they could get because of the good years changed maybe a little bit more of the dynamics of their team and their culture. And it didn't work the best for them. So in my mind, for me, I don't want to change. Our 300 mile radius is still the core of our team. Our state of Ohio, our state of Cincinnati, those are the cores to our team. We don't want to change that. Now, is it going to open some more doors within those areas? You're darn right. And we still got to be able to close those doors.

Same thing transfer-wise. It opens a lot of doors. We've been very successful. We've had 12 transfers. I think 10 of them have gone above and beyond what we even thought maybe they would do or could do. And it's because it's been a right situation at the right time with the right group of guys, meaning, you know, there's some dynamics to the locker room that are really important. So where we've got some greater opportunities because a guy like Ford has really produced and has come from Alabama or Michael Young, who's come from Notre Dame and really had success for us. We still got a matrix about these are the things that are important if we're going to bring

them into our program. And we don't want to change, even though it's going to give us some greater opportunities. So we've got to balance and weigh that out. Last thing, and I don't know, maybe we're close to the same age, the pursuit of the playoff, the pursuit of a championship, and unfortunately it feels like one team is deemed successful and everybody else is some massive failure um and i hate that and i i hate that it feels like going to win the rose bowl some letdown um and it is for ohio state i understand that but i i know that your fan base because i've heard from them and i know that as you mentioned even after the playoff loss removed from this you'll understand how successful a year this was for you because this was a massive, massive success for this program.

And it doesn't mean that, oh, your expectations aren't where they should be or this other stuff, but it'll be a season removed from it where I think people understand how special it was, especially in that community. Yeah, and as I hear now, you know, the trip to Dallas, the amount of people that were there, I mean, no, I didn't look around. No, I didn't look in the stadium and recognize, you know, maybe we had more and how unbelievable it was. But at least now back, you're hearing, you're seeing some of that.

And that's great. I love it for our kids. I love it for our program. I love it for our community and our city. And obviously, we talked about recruiting, but we want to use that in a way that's going to continue to help us grow our program. So I'm not completely naive to recognizing that it was a phenomenal year, that we've gained a lot of support, even from our community and our city. I have to understand that so that we can find ways to use that to continue to grow our program. Well, congrats on a great season, Luke, and thanks a lot for the time. Brian, I appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Ozark, the new series premieres January 21st on Netflix. It's broken up into two parts.

We'll get to that in a little bit. And Chris Mundy, who is the producer and showrunner, joins us today. So what's up, man? How are you? I'm nothing. Excited. This show's finally coming out. Yeah.

I always kind of sense a little bit of relief after all the hours that are put in. Sometimes, like we wrote it so long ago, sometimes it just feels like, oh, yeah, that's that thing we used to do. So now it makes it feel real again. You work so hard on it and then it just like disappears for a while. What have, you know, for the showrunner role where you're not only writing, but you're in charge of the show on top of everything else. But then also being a showrunner for someone else's creation. How is that? How does that work with so many different hats that you have to put on? It's kind of always different. Um, you know, uh, it, it having the various hats

is, is, is, is, is only hard in that all the different jobs are happening simultaneously. You know, um, I equate it to parenting. It's like, I don't know if you have kids, but like to me, like there's no single part of parenting that's super hard. It's just the fact that all the things are happening at the exact same time, which makes it impossible to not screw up sometimes, you know. It's the same thing with trying to run a show when it's somebody else's, you know, you either either the person's there all the time. And so you're trying to help kind of guide them and teach them the ropes of just how TV goes, because a lot of times it'll just be that person isn't just doesn't have experience. So you're in this case, Bill wrote it, Bill lives in St. Louis actually has a feature career. He's got three kids in high school in St. Louis.

So he was never going to be sort of in the room. And so he kind of came out at the beginning and you kind of like pick his brain in terms of things. And then he was gracious and trusting and that we wouldn't mess it up. And there's a strange thing in all that, that it allows us because I didn't write the pilot, all of us writers and all that can kind of own it together. It's like, no, I'm not telling them like this is what it is. You know, we're we're all finding it together. And there's there's something kind of kind of fun.

The more the more it feels collective, the better it is. Bateman is great for a bunch of different reasons. But there's just such buy-in with him, right? There's buy-in from the audience where it's like, if he's in front of us and he's telling us something, then it's, there isn't some massive stretch or this, this idea of this disbelief that you get half, you have to get past. What's it like writing for somebody where you just feel like, hey, if he's on saying it, then the audience just has some trust with him that doesn't happen for everybody. No, totally. And I've said this before, but it's really true. If Jason wasn't in the lead in this role, by the time, just starting with someone who's, for 10 years has been laundering money for a drug cartel, most people

would be like, oh my God, I hate that guy. Forget it. Like what, you know, but Jason is so likable that we like, we banked all of those years of people liking him and trusting him to even get people to kind of start with us, you know, you didn't watch it evolve. So that's really good. And you also know with Jason, like if you write anything because we try like people might not think we're funny we think we're funny a fair amount um and uh but you can you can write to his he's got such comedic timing and such a dry sense of humor both on screen but also just in real life um and so you can write things and know you don't have to push it because he's going to be so good and so deadpan perfect you know it's such

a luxury it's you know he and Laura and Julie I mean everybody honestly like they make you look so good and the better an actor is the less words you need to give them you know so you just learn to trust that it's really fun. Season

three did massive numbers. And anybody, it was a creator. It's like, oh, wow. You know, you can sit here and talk about the art. And then it's like, no, everybody's watching this. This is amazing. Why do you think it's worked so well? I don't know.

I mean, I think, I mean, hopefully the longer it goes on, the more we get to know ourselves and know what's good about the show. So like it should get better. You know, you should get deeper. But I think there's something I mean, there's a little bit of luck in everything when anything goes well. I think the fact that it's relatable as a family and relatable as a marriage, even though it's insane in terms of like the circumstances they're dealing with. I think that to me is sort of the secret ingredient. Um, we always think of it as a family show and we think of it as a show about a marriage. So, um, that's where our focus is way before it goes to bells and whistles about a

drug cartel and all that kind of stuff. So, um, I think there's something inside that, that, um, it's, it's fun. People can see their own lives within it but thank god it's not in such a stressful situation you know yeah because i've heard you say before that it's a show about marriage which is an interesting way to describe it i think i would have to get a little more depth if i were telling my buddy to check this show out yeah um but why did you why did you frame it in such a simple way which I realize you understand there's more depth to it but I mean I think if you think of it

that way it'll always have a heart you know the thing I hate I hate shows that where like all sorts of graphic stuff happens but they just happen because the writers wanted them to happen you know so it just becomes all incident and so I think if you're always thinking it

through the frame of a relationship or a family, then you've got to justify what's happening, you know, and, and you've got to emotionally justify what happened, what's happening and, and walk people through like a real pattern and, and, and not just be like, Oh, this week, they're going to do something really like violent and evil. And then next week, they just be like, oh, this week they're going to do something really violent and evil. And then next week, they're not. You've got to understand it in a frame. So to me, it just grounds us.

There is a tremendous amount of, okay, let me rephrase this. I remember when somebody in television gave me the Breaking Bad pitch and they gave it to me in 60 seconds. And you went, okay. And it was an example that somebody was using about a pitch. They're like, if I was describing a show to you, I'm like, here you go, 60 seconds. I'm like, oh my God, I'm in. This is amazing.

And that show's like perfect for it. Ozark is very similar. But as you mentioned, like the believability with Laura or Jason, and yet, hey, they're going to be hooked up with this cartel and they're going to be trying to build a casino and they're going to get involved in all these different things. There might be a harder buy-in without seeing it. But then once you do watch it and layering in that Marty got caught up in this because he felt unfulfilled, that the marriage was a mess when we first see these people

together, that they also have the same parenting issues that everybody else would have. How important do you think it is in those beginning parts to plant these seeds that we're going to go on some real rides here that may be hard to believe, but you're going to believe them because we lay the foundation of all these characters? I think it's huge. I think it's huge. When we started in the writer's room for season one, we did not, I was like, we're not going to put a single story beat on the board for at least two weeks.

Like, we're just going to sit and talk about who all these people are, like, in just in depth. It may never make it onto the screen, like the details that we all know, but we'll all know them when we're writing them. And then I think within that, like, you know, but we'll all know them when we're writing them. And then I think within that, like, you know, you build that foundation.

Like I've said before, but it's really true. Like we tell a ton of story on the show, clearly. But so our storytelling pace is fast, but our internal pacing inside a show is kind of way longer and slower. So what it does is you're able to have like a four-minute scene, if you want, between two people, if it'll justify itself. And you get to know them and feel them at the same time. Crazy plot stuff is happening over the course of the episode. And I think that weird push and pull, um, has, has worked for us. I don't know if it would work every time, but like for this show, for this show, it really has. And, um, and, and, and I, I don't even think it's something that people probably even think about

or notice, but we do. And so you get to know the people and you get to care about the people. Like sure. Ruth is a really fun character because she, you know, you know, she swears like a trucker and she's, you know, super ballsy for a 19 year old girl in the Ozarks. But you also,

there's like a humanity with her that you get to understand. So it's, you'd wear out on her if you didn't get to play all the humanity. And then obviously Julia just brings so much to it that we're all lucky right julia plays ruth is ruth who you thought she would be when she started she's who we want who we thought she could be and better um you know it was really like we loved that character in the abstract um and it stayed pretty true to what we originally thought in the broad strokes. But I think once we started writing it

and once we realized just how fantastic Julia was in the role, you could just keep layering and layering and she could just do everything. And she plays it with such... She has swagger and a certain melancholy at the same time. So you could pull in one scene, you could watch both. And so I think in that way, she's way more three-dimensional than I ever could have hoped for.

And I already had super high hopes. Yeah, because that one, you're trying to think, okay, we have these boxes checked. And it's like, okay, but who becomes complicit with Marty? Because in the beginning, you're like, okay, this is the relationship. And I don't want to take anything away from everybody else, but it might be the most important through line of the first three seasons uh oh definitely we talk about we

talk about that like the the other romance and totally not in not in any way romantic or sexual but the other romance we think about is marty and ruth just this sort of platonic know, he's the, Marty is the first person that ever saw how smart and capable she was. So for him, for, so it's like, kind of like a father figure, kind of like a big brother. And, and I think there's a real protection and pride that Marty feels even when they're butting heads, you know, and, and with Wendy and Ruth, Wendy just recognizes Ruth and Wendy is the same person just coming from different angles really and i think because of that when they butt heads that nothing good can happen in a strange in a strange way because you know um but with marty

there's just there's a deep affection there and you can't and no matter how mad he is he's never going to get out of that deep affection you know'm kind of jumping around here timeline-wise, but I feel like especially with some more of the prestige television that we've had over the last decade plus, depending on whatever timeline you believe in, those first few seconds. I mean, it's not even the first few minutes anymore. few minutes anymore, those first few seconds to introduce a story and to have Marty being giving financial advice while he watches his wife on video have sex with another man, you go, and at the time you're not 100% sure what's going on. Right. And then he brings out the laptop later on. How, how one-on-one is that in writing right now where it's like, you better have something

scream off the page conflict. Why am I interested in the first few words yeah it's really true i mean it's a worry you know because because things do you do want to build things and you don't you don't want to like out sensationalize somebody you know what i mean but um but yeah it's it's if you can if you can pull someone in like that in a way that is, um, you know, surprising at the same time, not just like surprise for the sake of surprise,

like that loop. It meant something. It was something really emotional, you know, in fact, in that first season, there was a moment where Marty and Wendy have sex for the first time. Um, you know, there was a moment where Marty and Wendy have sex for the first time and it turns into him replaying that

thing that he saw that she doesn't even know he saw and we saw that, we put that on the board in the writer's room that was like in the way that in a season someone might say, oh this is the moment where so and so dies, that's a turning point in the season like that, that was one of our gigantic turning points in the season. Like that, that was one of our gigantic turning points

in the season, just that weird, the intimacy that turns completely terrible. So going back and using that and reincorporating was, you know, it was great. There's, as with every season and just looking at the trailer alone, you're like, okay, you know, you're raising the the stakes raising the stakes again uh what was the conversation leading to do we show a love scene between darlene and wyatt um that was that was uh we kind of we said it in the room

uh actually laura deely one of the writers said it, and everyone was kind of like, kind of laughed. And I was like, that's really, I kind of love that. And then it became like the next day, we're like, people, it was more like, are we really doing this? I'm like, oh, yeah, we're really, we're really, we're really doing this i'm like oh yeah we're really like we're really like we're really doing this our thing with that was both in the writing of it um and definitely in the filming of it we're like do not we're not playing it as like we're playing it absolutely straight it's like here are two people that are broken in a certain way and needy in a certain way and film it and

write it like they're both 30 or like they're both whatever you know and and so that like other people can like kind of look sideways at it but they weren't and i think the key to pulling it off was um or to the degree we pulled it off anyway um was was just making it emotionally true and sincere and then letting everybody else from the outside react however they're going to react. Because I think those of us that are watching, that's what I do really appreciate about the show,

is that, okay, here's the setup, and here's what we're doing, and now it's very believable. I mean, in a weird, I don't know if you've ever played video games, it reminds me of some of the old Grand Theft Auto stuff where it's like Marty's just in the Ozarks, and he's like, okay, I'm buying strip club, now I'm buying a hotel, i was like that's kind of what it obviously there's there's more to it so i don't want you to take me like you just compared our really successful show to

a stupid video game but it it's like okay now that we're in this setting and now we're you know we we we figure the whole thing out and then it's like okay what's something we could just do on the side that i don't know if it's going to freak people out. Like, is it necessary? Well, it's not necessary.

So how do you talk? Like, as you said, somebody brought it up, you hate throw it on the board and think about it for a little bit, but it's not even specific to that scene. How often are you thinking about the growth of the show and growth of the characters,

but also realizing, Hey, we got seven episodes, 10 episodes. Like, what can we do? That's that's actually, let's give them a little dessert through the process i'm thinking about it like all the time like

like every it's like i'll you know we'll be in the writer's room i guess we're all done now but like we'd be in the writer's room and go home you know make dinner have a hang out with my family while we're all just kind of chilling out and And then at some point, there's always some point where I'm like, I'm sitting there off by myself with like a little, like, it's like, oh, you all of a sudden have time to, like all the thoughts that, cause the writer's room is,

you're always talking about stuff, but it's so much all the time that there's almost no time to like fully absorb everything. So you're just like, the writers would always joke, I would come in with these tiny little post-it notes and this like little scribble, like a serial killer, like with like, okay, here are the five things I thought about that we could do. And they're always little things, little or big things like that. But it's kind of constant. It's actually a fun part of it.

You just like, you're always kind of living it. Any things that you thought of and maybe loved for a day, slept on it and went, okay, we're not doing that or something that maybe it was close to being done. It just didn't happen. No. I mean, the closest to that we had is, is,

is we broke season two with Ben, uh, Wendy's brother in it for a long time. He was, he was for the first five, five, six weeks of, of the writer's room,

which is a pretty long time. He was a huge part of that seat of that second season. Um, and the decision to just pull it out because it was, everything was just, it was just too much. It was just clogged. Um, that was a really tough one because we thought it was going to be really good, but we went into season three being like, okay, we know we're going to do, we're know we're going to do this and we're going to be really good but we went into season three being like okay we know we're going to do we know we're going to do this and we're going to bring him in so um uh that's it's more of an example of of that and usually it's like usually it's things like i said we're like are we really doing that like when darlene cut the baby out of you know mason's wife grace in season one one of our writers had been off on set and uh

down where we were filming so she hadn't been in the room when we we did it and she came back and we just had it up there we were just like talking we were like breaking the thing and i was sitting next to her and she looked and she's like she's like we're doing it and i'm just like yeah yeah we're doing it and she's and she. She's like, wow, great. And I was like, it's usually been us like saying like, okay, yeah, I guess like, let's go for it. I don't think like we've ever been unhappy when we went for something. So what's the hesitation then?

If the return seems to be so good, is it just still about, this is really gross, it's graphic, it's too much. It's gross or graphic. It's even, it's, you know, or it's gross or graphic um it's even it's um it's you know or it's did we earn it is this would this is it believe can you believe in our twisted universe that this would happen or is it just a bunch of writers that want something like cool or you know over the top to happen you know there was a big season one. No, sorry. Season two. There's a scene where Helen waterboards Ruth. And for a while in the room that what the version of that was going to be, they were there was a lot of debate about that.

And there were two of the writers in particular who really, really, really, really disliked it. And so we pulled back on that. You know, Marty's zip-tied in the front with Cade while it's happening. Because they just didn't want to physically see that happen. And so that's one of the times we pulled back on something. And I totally understood why and sort of respected that. If it was that for those of us who kind of own the show,

if that was way too far for people, then maybe like we had to pull back. Do the arguments sometimes become emotional? I imagine. I mean, I know, I know the answer is yes, but I mean, emotional, not with each other, but because of the attachment to the characters. Yeah, definitely. Absolutely. You know, and as we approach the end of the show, even more just cause every, everything has weight. Everything is the last everything, you know?

So yeah, it really, it really does. And, and last everything, you know? Um, so, uh, yeah, it really, it really does. And, and it's, and it's, it's funny. It's like, even like, you know, those of us who've been writing it from the very beginning, people will interpret things we've done slightly differently, even though we've talked about it for hours on end about what it means. And I know what it means for me, but it's interesting but you do you know at the same time you're trying to make an interesting show and and and a and a fun show and and hopefully a truthful on some level show so you've got to be brutally real with your characters you do feel sort of like parental about them like you need to like like if something bad happens to them you're not taking care of them even though of course you're doing it you know uh was there always the design that

that either darlene or jacob had to die you know was was it i mean that was probably i don't know i mean there's a lot of intense different storylines in here but darlene and jacob in this woods what was the build-up of the discussion of like, how early did you know that that might've been it? Was there ever a debate of how long you can maybe keep them both alive? What did it ever go the other way? Because I mean, that was,

that still to me is probably one of the heaviest parts of the entire series. Yeah, that was cause it was so, um, in one way it was so simple and to me, and it wasn't like, it was intimate, you know,

that, that, that, and I think that, I think that is why it worked really well that we knew that pretty much immediately and at the beginning of season two that we were going to do that. The interesting thing, part of that is, is the character of Darlene never when she first came in, wasn't meant to be as big a part as it turned out to be. It was really more we liked the idea of this being a husband and wife. when she first came in wasn't meant to be as big a part as it turned out to be. It was really more,

we liked the idea of this being a husband and wife, you know, so that it's kind of a mom and pop heroin store, you know, or operation. But with no real, no real plans to expand Darlene particularly, you know?

And then Lisa Emery was just so good. And I thought I, we came out of that first season. It was like, it was like, damn, I think, I think Lisa is the scariest thing in the show. And it's not like she had tons and tons of dialogue in the, over the course of that first season. It's just that when she did, you just like, you know, you leaned in. And so that became interesting.

And we kind of thought that Jacob would go at the end of season two. And then because Lisa was so good, it was a way to do that and then make it, again, like really intimate and sad. Like I felt obviously terrible for Jacob. I felt terrible for Darlene as she's doing it. And then I'm thinking like, why the hell do I feel sorry for either of these people? They're like terrible, you know, heroin dealer, you know? So that's kind of the, hopefully the magic trick of it. Yeah. That's a good point on Darlene in that her being so unhinged and so unpredictable, you know, that we see at the end of season one that now,

okay, like there's no part of her doing anything where I would go, oh, that doesn't make any sense. Right. Because you, you've built up all this equity of her being so unhinged that now you can kind of get away with it.

Right. And she, and she also has a code, like in a weird way. It's like you know when she kills dale dell in season one it's because he was not polite you know and and like her code is strong and true it's psychotic but it's like but you can but you can track it you know so i think that has a lot to do with it too. There's some way you actually know she's a good mom to that baby,

which makes no sense. Do you know what I mean? So it's interesting to play with those various sides. I've read in an interview, and I don't know if this is – I don't believe it's just Justin, but you know different shows i i understand work different ways you know here's the script you know don't ad lib the writer's room takes offense um sometimes it's a showrunner that is just like this is exactly how we're doing it and then you'll have somebody on set who's actor actress with enough juice that it's like hey let's play it

this way it seems like you have far more flexibility with some of the actors on just how how the line reads and their freedom to tweak things at times i'm sure you're not saying this about every cast member but i'm just researching some of it it's it seemed kind of interesting how that plays out well you know we make the show together and we're a group and we all like each other so like to me we get this we get the outlines to our you know the department heads to start working all the stuff really early and we get the scripts to the actors really early so that they have a chance to live with them talk to me as much as they possibly want because like we're creating it together you know what i mean it's like we're in one way you're like this theater

troupe and you all know each other and luckily we all like each other i know that sounds like one of those things that people just say but like we truly just all do so um so in that way i'm talking to people you know it's not like it's all the time but like i'm talking through the script with them whenever anyone has questions so hopefully by the time we're on set we've already had all those conversations. But if you get on set and there's something that doesn't feel right in the actor's mouth, then they probably know. I trust that they know well because they're playing that person. And so they'll talk to, they'll either, if I'm there, we'll talk. If there's a writer there, they'll talk or they'll call me or text me as we're filming.

And, you know, nine times out of 10, they're right. And then the 10th time out of 10, we'll do it both ways or, you know, do it both ways. Or I'll be like, oh, no, it kind of needs to be this just because of that. And they'll say, oh, that makes sense. But to me, you know, having the relationship and having the ownership by all of us, like just makes the show better. I have two other things before we finish here, writing for the children in the show. And I would say in most shows, it feels very cliche. Like the child is a mechanism to get a reaction out of the main characters, right? Unless it's a show about kids. Uh, in this case, I think you all, all the right, everybody in the room deserves so much credit for

making both the kids interesting and the jonah part of it where you nail the court sort of you know not intentionally creepy but creepy adolescent and then his evolution into you know actually wanting to help you know you, you made both the children valuable to the storyline. Oh, thank you. And I don't think that happens very often. I think it's a really hard thing to pull off because we're just used to kids being cliche

and none of us really care. We're like, well, whatever, that's something we care about. Yeah. That's really nice of you to say. I mean, we obviously try. And, you know, and it's interesting because you're you're watching them like, you know, those of us like us grownups Sophia's going from, you know, 16 to 21, you know, like, um, those are major changes in terms of like their understanding the world. And so, and so hopefully having built those characters, well, those kids, you watch them just get better and step up and it's fun. And I've got

two girls. So, you know, you can, you're listening all the time to the way kids really talk. And I think just the decision to like immediately fold the kids into the story, as opposed to the kids, here's a secret the parents are trying to keep from the kids because you do that and then every scene with them is going to be the same scene it's just a scene about what they don't know yeah you know and and so um i think it was really important to the dna of the show that they immediately knew and then it's the slippery slope of by the time they're loading money into that wall season one like oh damn this is like a whole this is a whole family operation and the dinner table is a different place okay last thing uh you wrote the finale

to season one yeah right just so yeah yeah i was i was positive but i want to make sure that everybody was on the same page here uh before you start trashing it before you yeah yeah like episode nine sucked, but great job. The kind of bait and switching of the audience, the teasing that something could happen and getting us to continue to believe where in this case, it's like, wait, is this really going to happen? It can't happen. It's the end of season one. Like the family has to stay together. It's a TV show. It's, it's a hard thing, you you know because it's like all

right let's let's keep teasing you a little bit and you have to have us kind of thinking is this actually a possibility even though the structure of a show it doesn't entirely make a ton of sense and you keep pushing how do you keep figuring out ways of paying that off in a way where it feels like yeah we know we're messing with you here but we're actually we don't want you to think that we want you to buy into the fact that these could be some options, but eventually we do have to keep this group together because if the group is separated,

I don't know what the show is. There is no show. Yeah, it's a tricky thing, obviously. I mean, I think the key, if there is one, is being invested enough so that people aren't kind of stepping outside themselves and thinking about, okay, it's a TV show. Like everything you're saying, which I totally agree with is if you can keep the situation tense enough for

the people in it, then you're just living with them rather than stepping outside the situation being like, Oh no, I don't worry. It's all going to be okay because it's a tell, it's a television show. Do you know what I mean? So, um, so you've got to like make the people walking around inside the show. You've just got to live in with them a little bit in those moments. And hopefully the tension will, the tension will keep holding,

especially in that last episode. It's one, it's that, I remember Jason and I were Jason because Jason directed that. And, uh, one, it's that, I remember Jason and I, because Jason directed that. And we were both so happy. I mean, that ran at an hour and 20 minutes. It was the same, it was the same, you know, page number, you know, that we'd always written. It just was longer. And when we turned it in, they kind of suggested like,

well, if you want to pull some time, maybe you could pull this. And we're like, we're pretty happy. Do you mind if we just like, we'd really love to just keep it exactly as is. And Netflix was really nicely said, like immediately said yes. But I think some of it was like, he did such a good job directing that like he did like, you just felt stuck in those moments. You know what I mean?

And so if you're holding your breath enough, your brain's not saying not saying like oh it's gonna be it has to be okay you know um no but it's a great decision because it's exactly how it would be like if you were facing this thing where you're like okay is this it and am i really breaking off from the family and then this isn't even really a great plan you'd have those moments where you would just be at the side of the road going am i gonna do this um i i'm surprised at least in the first season they'd let you get away with it that would be an interesting industry question that i don't know the answer to what is the pushback other than millions and millions of pieces of data that would suggest over a certain amount of time stop making a tv show um but we see movies trend longer and longer

what what is it normally on the pushback? And I'm not talking about network stuff, where Netflix has, you know, they can make episodes as long as they want to make. HBO has a little bit more restriction on that stuff. Why is there this pushback creatively because of just research? I don't know. I mean, you know, it's

funny. It's like, I kind of set the number for us like I didn't want to be over when we've been over an hour on on a handful of shows but just for myself i was just thinking like when i look at a netflix show and you see before it's going to start it says like 52 minutes or it's like for some reason when it goes like into 61 62 63 i'm like okay wait do i have the investment time i don't know why it's stupid. So for me, I was like, let's, we should always try to keep it. It shouldn't be above 60. That

just feels like, oh, okay. And then of course, like we've broken it a bunch of times, but so some of it was just my own psychology in the whole thing. And, and but I've got to say, in the whole thing. But I've got to say, Netflix was always really good. They never, like, you know, if it didn't feel long, you know, if something feels long,

you need to cut it. But if something is an hour and 20 minutes and it doesn't feel long, you know, you never kind of, like, walk to the fridge, then I feel like it kind of justifies itself. And it's weird. Like, you know, some of our best in these last final 14, um, a couple of our best episodes are like 62, 63 minutes, but a couple are like 50, like shorter than we've ever done. And it's really

just like, oh yeah, that was, that was the time we needed to tell that story. Right. So seven episodes, uh, again, the premiere netflix january 21st and then there's no date for part two of the fourth season which is another seven episodes correct yep that's that's that's right but it won't be a super long wait i don't think any idea um i my my guess is spring summer but um oh okay but uh but uh you know it's that's my guess but i don't think i don't think people are gonna have to wait a long time okay we won't use this as the breakout to promotion chris money confirms yeah for part two we won't do that to you uh we're all fans i appreciate the time man good luck with the premiere oh thanks i appreciate it i appreciate

being on i love it you You want details? Bye. I drive a Ferrari. 355 Cabriolet. What's up? I have a ridiculous house in the South Fork. I have every toy you could possibly imagine. And best of all, kids, I am liquid.

So, now you know what's possible. Let me tell you what's required. Life advice. Lifeadvicerr at gmail.com. Okay, we have have a couple good ones i want to start with something that's totally different we haven't done anything like this before so i'm very excited about it because at first i was like this is a dumb one kyle and now that i've read it i don't think it's dumb i love it uh it is dumb though okay around spring 2019 when most of us began remote work um spring 2019 i think that's wrong yeah it's been a long it's been a long quarantine guy i get it maybe they started remote work 2019 honestly that's a very excusable

mistake because i'll have times where i'm like wait a minute when was that and i'll go oh that's that was then i'm like that wasn't that long ago but but it was, I don't know. Okay. So our guy started remote work at some point. I responded to a Microsoft Teams office chat. Okay. So they had a chat going that I had the best pirate joke ever. My coworkers were like, great, let's hear it. I declined, but promised to tell it. We were all back in the office because the joke requires me to read the room.

Most jokes do. I like this guy already. As remote work dragged on, they insisted on me telling the joke on a video conference. I again declined. This is, in fact, the best pirate joke ever, and I was not about to sully it over an impersonal medium. Remote work dragged on and on.

My coworkers began to think I was just messing with them, that the joke didn't even exist. Gasp. First, there was dragged on and on. My coworkers began to think I was just messing with them, that the joke didn't even exist. Gasp. First, there was confused anger and disappointment, but they quickly began to believe the whole joke was me egging them on about some epic joke that didn't actually exist. And while I stuck to my guns, talking it up and yes, I've talked it up to the nines. Whoa. Okay.

Look at our guy here. Uh, the joke is impervious to expectations. They seem to fall in love with this perceived years, years long, elaborate ruse or maybe a year and a half. Now that we'll all likely be back in the office after Omicron is passed. Really making that call and hopefully without masks by 2023. Do I tell the joke? Some seem to respect me more for sticking with this perceived ruse. But after all we've been through, they also really deserve a damn good joke.

And he says, finally, my supervisor sometimes listens to your podcast. If you read this email, he will take it as furthering the ruse by seeking your advice on a fictitious joke. Or will he finally believe the joke is real? All right. The reason I think this is so funny is i'm thinking about my one one friend i have more than one but the the one friend that i have in our group who this would be what he would do forever he would just do it forever even if there was a joke and clearly the email is telling us that there is in fact a pirate joke um but i think the funnier thing is for you to just ride this out

forever never tell the joke because now the joke no matter what it is it still could be a really funny pirate joke but it can't meet expectations I mean you're telling us that this is impervious to expectations which I still think is sort of impossible for a joke everything in life is expectations really if you break it down that way how you feel about a movie how how you feel about other people, your whole concept of going into a weekend, depending on your expectations, is likely how you're going to grade your enjoyment of it. So I don't know how The Office,

even if this is a banger of all pirate jokes, I don't know that it can live up. And I think it's way funnier, as I think of this friend, who would just be like, the joke is for you to be back in the office and then go tell the pirate joke. And your line should just be something like, it just doesn't feel right. Just doesn't feel right. Or, you know, now's not the time for pirate jokes. And then that's your joke. And it plays forever because people, the, another thing

about us is that, you know, when we're told about something that we're going to, you know, find out about most of us care, most of us would be like, I don't even care if it's terrible. I need to know, like, I need to complete this, the series here. Uh, so I, I like your mindset on all this. I'm sure your supervisors thrilled by talking about the nines in the office. Um, so take it easy on supervisors if you do listen to this podcast, but I think the move here is to never tell the joke and the joke itself is you just having funny lines that are endless. Now they're endless whenever you're asked about the pirate joke. gift the joke to individual people like on for christmas or something be like i got you this joke for christmas but you can't tell anyone like maybe maybe there's like a way to to like not let everyone in on it but like maybe get it off your chest a little bit um i mean like a wedding gift

would be just everyone would hate you for that but i'm just thinking of like where someone's expecting a wedding gift it is bad winning it would be hilarious though like where somebody's expecting something from you and what you bring to the table is that you get to listen you get to hear this and get some ownership of the greatest pirate joke ever but you can't give it to just anyone so i think that could be funny too um but yeah i wouldn't do this over over zoom it sounds like you've already committed to the the bit of the bit so i mean unless it's a hard 10 joke um and i wish there was a way like like I wish that, and maybe we could like do a follow-up on this and he could send us the joke and we could sort of like pilot test him for it.

And like we could tell him whether or not it's actually worth telling. Because if it's not a 10, then everyone's going to get let down. And even if it's a 10, it still might be a let down. So I think, Ron, you're 100% right. I think you just got to basically play it like,

eh, not the right time. No, not today. Maybe tomorrow. Even I'm like, tell the joke, dude. I want to, even just knowing about it for a little bit of time, like, well, what's the joke? Here's not today. Maybe tomorrow. Even I'm like, tell the joke, dude. I want to even just knowing about it for a little bit of time. Like, well, what's the joke? Here's the thing.

Is it his joke too? Did he make the joke up? No way. Is it like a known joke? I don't think he's a joke writer. My guess is, I mean, he's pretty funny in the email and he's clearly pretty smart

with the way he kind of set it up. Because at first I'm going, what is this? Like, I'm not reading this one. And then I got through it and I was amused. But I think I'm extra amused personally because I'm thinking about

this one guy, Mark, and how great he would be in delivering the constant like, you know what? I'd love to tell it today, but I just, today, it just doesn't feel right. It just doesn't feel like the right day for a pirate joke. And he would be so funny in that delivery. And that's why I just kind of keep laughing to myself.

And maybe I'm on an island on this one. I still feel like, so I did google a bunch of pirate jokes because i was trying to figure out me too is there is there one that hits so hard you know and one of the first ones i found out how do pirates know they are pirates they think therefore they are yeah there's a lot of our jokes a lot of our jokes a lot of yeah a lot of where do where do pirates keep their valuables in a jar you know a lot of ours i'm hoping it's like a story joke like the funk hauser joke about the uh that he tells on the set of larry's show like i'm hoping it's got like a story and a setup and then like it's like it's super long and winding

and it's not good and then the end is so shocking that you're like oh my god like that's what I'm hoping it's one of those jokes like a three paragraph joke I don't think it could be a one line joke I think it's got to be a story yeah I do think it yeah I think it feels like one of those deals it has to be a big setup one um I don't know frustratingly long

the Funkhauser one is good probably not office acceptable well he does have to read the room yeah Funkhauser is is good. Probably not office acceptable. Well, he does have to read a room. Yeah. Funkhauser is just funny. I mean, he was just great at kind of being funny without trying to be funny,

which goes back to all the Super Dave stuff. It was just like, it was, I don't know. Do you guys, there's no way you remember Super Dave as it was happening. No, I found out from Bill and Sal who were like, yeah, dude,

but Super Dave watched some of these things. i watched them i found another one that was a long setup pirate joke we should bring in jeff garland or bargazzi again for these kind of running by those guys see if they like me this stuff uh yeah all right so oh actually international talk like a pirate day is september 19th so you might want to put that in the old microsoft team calendar see if uh maybe maybe that's the right day or if somebody else in the office is like hey it's is it national it's probably international pirate day right what did i hope so yeah i feel like that couldn't be just irish everywhere dude yeah internet it's definitely international i don't even know as i just said it out loud i'd forgotten what i said

um how do how do pirates prefer to communicate i to i i love that with this place i found it's pretty good there's part one and then there's pirate jokes part two why is pirating so addictive they say once you lose your first hand you get hooked i think i got a good one what's a pirate use a cell phone for booty calls ah that one's good nice that one's good and it actually might land it's topical yeah you know it's sort of updated that's that's what i like about that one okay i have one other one that's a bit longer for a story unfortunately now i'm stuck in this horrible website that won't let me out of it uh you people should be put in jail it's just a guy

trying to google some pirate jokes here and you know you're not letting me out okay here we go um maybe this is it long ago when sailing ships ruled the waves, the captain and his crew were in danger of being boarded by a pirate ship. As the crew became frantic, the captain bellowed to his first mate, Bring me my red shirt. The first mate quickly retrieved the captain's red shirt, which the captain put on and led the crew to battle the pirates' boarding party. Although some casualties occurred among the crew, the pirates were repe later that day the lookout screen that there are two pirate vessels

now sending boarding parties the crew cowered in fear but the captain calm calm as ever bellowed bring me my red shirt once again the battle was on however the captain and his crew repelled both boarding parties this time more casualties occur weary from the battles the men sat around on the deck that night recounting the day's occurrences when an ensign looked to the captain and said, Sir, why did you call for your red shirt before the battle? The captain giving the ensign a look that only a captain could give,

exhorted, If I'm wounded in battle, the red shirt does not show the wound and thus you men will continue to fight unafraid. The men sat in silence, marveling at the courage of such a man. As dawn came the next morning, the lookout screamed that there were pirate ships, ten of them, all with boarding parties on their way. The men became silent

and looked to the captain, their leader, for his usual command. The captain, calm as ever, bellowed, Bring me my brown pants. Heard that when I was 14. I hope that's not the one, dude, because a lot of people heard that one. I kind of hope it is the one. Either it has to really land or if it just falls flat, it could be amazing.

Well, if you heard it, because if you heard it before, it's a long setup and you hear red shirt in like the first three sentences and you're like, okay, I'll take this ride. Sorry, guys. Okay. Yeah, I read that long one and i didn't think it was great either so we're just maybe we're doing this because if he reads this and then gets that reaction from kyle who's like i heard it at 14 years old i fell out if he's listening at 14 though i thought it was 14 you love i was a genius were you working in an office at the time? No. I'm not making fun of you, Kyle. I'm making fun of the idea.

I just got that. I feel like I gotta be on my toes with you when I let you into my life. I feel like you're looking for openings for soft jabs, so I just gotta be on my toes with you. Are you getting sick of the soft jabs? Getting sick of them? Why don't you just wind up and really hit me with one? We'll see if I can handle it.

I wouldn't want to do that to you. Yeah. Okay. All right. Checking in from the gym. Got a lot of gym people. Here's an aside. Your gym jokes about everybody joining the gym after New Year's,

those are more played out than the gyms being busy. All right? Those of us that have been doing this a long time, we made those gym jokes. You want to talk jokes? We're doing those 20 years ago. Maybe 30. Who knows?

I don't know what LA Fitness was like in the early 80s. But the Instagram thing, like, oh, look at the gym. It's busy. Find better stuff. Be more creative. We've done that. It's been done. Everybody knows it.

And by the way, I'm thrilled there's more people there. Good for them. That's how I look at it. When I was young and a shithead, I'd be like, you know, or look at this guy. Look how weak he is. They're in there. I'm serious. This isn't me just doing a little Tony Robbins on you.

They're in there. So give them credit. All right. Five, nine, one, 65, an athlete and I. Robbins on you. They're in there. So give them credit. Alright. 5'9", 165. An athlete. NAIA. So this can't be real. There's a guy in my gym right now with an actual speaker blasting music while he works out. Mind you, I have

AirPod Pros in Flex. Are AirPod Pros the high-end ones, guys? Yeah. I think those are like the 250. Yeah. I'll tell you what. They're pretty sweet. They really are that good. I got the regulars and I feel like they only sell them so you can buy them and then also buy the pros.

One day, buddy. So we sent in a picture too of this guy. He does look pretty serious. He's doing full-blown pull-ups and the speaker setup. His hands are big too, man. Whenever you're going to have a confrontation with a guy, always look at the size of his hands. He's got pretty big hands. They almost look

like it's CGI in this. Or maybe because he's doing some wide pull-ups too. I don't know, man. My instincts are... He also has some pedialyte going. God, there's a lot going on here. It's fascinating. Anyway, his move, what he's doing sucks.

It's an all-time selfish move. It completely sucks. Invest. If you could buy this Bluetooth speaker, and it's really up to the staff. So, you know, again, I don't know what your level of confrontation, what you're comfortable with.

There's actually a way you can kind of be like, hey, man, like, is that going to be your move? I would probably have to see it a couple of times before I might say something and I wouldn't want to have to tell on them, but it's really, if the gym is worth anything, then they go to them and say, look, we can't have, again, it's, it's the rule of many here, right? And it's why I really don't like selfishness at times. It's just like, okay, so you're down doing your little thing but you don't care about anyone else and what if 30 people showed up to the gym with bluetooth speakers like it would be it would feel like we were in some sort of asylum so um not gonna work but

i don't i don't i mean it sucks that he's doing it but i don't really know what you're going to be able to do here because it looks like you know if the guy's willing to do bluetooth speaker he's probably willing to throw some hands too yeah that's that's the problem that's where kyle comes in i know i think i think i think guys leave the house and they're like i hope somebody tries me for my fucking bluetooth speaker today like even even people like on the beach and i would never come out to people on the beach and be like hey could you stop ruining everyone's time but's time? But I think that they're hoping that somebody comes up to their group like, hey, guys, do you think you could stop? I think you absolutely know what you're doing when you're like,

I could get headphones or I could use the speaker. It's a very clear choice. And I just think those people are probably more susceptible to turning a small disagreement into something physical. Well, here's what you can do, Ryan. This is because I actually really like your advice from last the last episode about like taking the future in-laws to the play and talking through the entire thing just so they know the experience that you're going through. What if you got a couple of guys at the gym to all bring in bluetooth speakers and you all play them at the same time then he can't just beat one of you up

it's all of you he can't just be mad at one of you it's all of you it's like a group mentality thing and then he's like this is how it feels dude it sucks so stop doing it to us yeah and it has to be just like three four different things like Pantera and then maybe some of those last songs on the soundtrack

The Place Between the Pines which I on the soundtrack the place between the pines which i love the soundtrack on top of the movie um yeah you know what's great idea now granted you know for a decent bluetooth speaker you're probably talking 150 bucks so it's a bit of a bit of investment in the joke they're great in the bathroom though so you could you wait a minute bluetooth at the beach kyle you're anti that? I don't know. It depends on what's going on. I've seen Yeah, I kind of am, honestly. If you're on the crowded beach, I kind of am

a little bit. And there's definitely a respectable volume, but the Bluetooth beach people don't necessarily know what that is, I think. What if they play Get Rich or Die trying front to back? Again, I look around and when I see that there's what if they play get rich or die trying like front to back again again I look around and when I see that there

is like there's kids I just I'm for kids I kind of you know I don't like smoking cigarettes outside in a place where you're allowed to smoke cigarettes if there's kids running around I don't I don't like it on Hollywood I like that about you and Hollywood Boulevard I like duck behind an alley if you know because Hollywood Boulevard is a free-for-all there's babies

and kids so it's just like it's kind of kind of strange to smoke cigarettes on Hollywood Boulevard but also why are you bringing your kids Because Hollywood Boulevard is a free-for-all. There's babies and kids. So it's kind of strange to smoke cigarettes on Hollywood Boulevard. But also, why are you bringing your kids to Hollywood Boulevard? All I'm saying is when there's kids around, that's why Beach is unique. When you got 2 Chainz talking about all the awesome stuff that he does talk about,

sometimes I think for 7-year-olds it's not necessarily the best move. Parents didn't come there to be exposing them to that. Who knows? Yeah, I think for seven-year-olds, it's not necessarily the best move. So if they're, you know, parents didn't come there to be exposing them to that. Who knows? Yeah. I think there's, you know, as somebody that likes to actually the beaches here,

it still blows me away that they're always empty, but, um, yeah, the full blown Bluetooth at the beach thing that there are times where you're like, okay, but you know,

I don't really, if you're not like 30 yards away from the next guy, you know, that's what I mean. Like if you're right next to people and you're like, this is, you know, sorry, it's a crowded beach day, but we're still going to do our thing with no regard for how close we are to everyone else. It's just annoying. Yeah. If you're right on top of somebody else, then it's a little different. But if it's a packed weekend deal and you know, you want to do a little EDM I don't know I'm sometimes I'm anti telling people to stop having a good time within reason um right there's a there's a building above mine where there's a roof deck and I love my neighbors and they had I guess their their kids were there

for a weekend and they raged all weekend like went for for it. Music late in the night, unbelievable setup. And then the parents called me because I'm in my forties going, you must've been so mad. And I was like, no, I was pumped for him. I was like, I don't care. I was like, it doesn't bother me. I barely heard it. I was like, I sort of heard it. And it sounds like they went pretty late and they're like, well, someone called the cops. They thought it might've been you. I was like, I'll be the, I can promise you this. I'll, I'll be the last guy to call in for a noise violation for somebody else. Yeah. I'll be annoyed and I'll hate you, but I won't tell you to stop. That's how I go. I wasn't even annoyed and I was happy for him because it was peak COVID and I just

thought, hey, I think it's cool these guys are getting together and having a good time and using their parents' house. If they did it every single weekend, yeah, it would probably be great on some people. But I think somebody else called the cops on him because they were loud, but it wasn't me. And I told them straight up, it'll never be me. The gym thing, it just is up to your own acceptable level of confrontation. If you're not a confrontational person based on this picture of this guy at his hands,

I would say probably no. But yeah, maybe the Bluetooth speaker, you could do that, but seriously but again some gyms people care and some don't i've been to gyms where people that work there take pride in it and then i've been to other gyms like that last one i was at west hartford towards the end i couldn't fucking believe how little anyone cared and the funny thing is i actually liked a lot of people that worked there so i never really wanted to say anything but you would just see people just not care at all and then i got so mad i tweeted out a photo of the people that worked there. So I never really wanted to say anything, but you would just see people just not care at all.

And then I got so mad I tweeted out a photo of it. And the hilarious thing was then the New York affiliate has nothing to do with me. Called to complain about me tweeting out a picture from this health club. And then I got yelled at about it. And I was like, do you care more about the New York affiliate thing that has nothing to do with me? And they were basically like, yes, cool then um all right one more this is about mortgages this is about um about money and uh you know i think it's a really good question but i think it's a pretty easy answer

i'm not sure the emailer's gonna love love my answer here. I would think most people are going to agree with me on this one, but you never know. All right. 6'3", weight, air, scale maxes at 400. Not ideal. All right. Yep. It's all right, man.

You're funny, too. Listen to the Willie Colon pod. You can do it. You recently talked about people living together and deciding the proper division of rent and utilities. Yes, we were talking about a guy that was going to potentially marry his girlfriend that was going to move in. I've been roommates with a coworker for six years. We've worked together for four years before rooming.

We've split all the utilities and mortgage payments 50-50 since day one. In that time, the value of the house has likely doubled, then $200,000, now $400,000, is likely doubled, then 200,000, now 400,000 based on estimates from reality sites, Zillow, Realtor, et cetera. Look, I have a property on a Zillow that's listed on Zillow. This estimate is like 25% higher than the price that we just closed at. So Z um zillow realtors hate zillow we all like looking at zillow um i enjoy looking at it but i try not to go i try not to be married to the zestimate all right i think that's a it's a fair lie yeah some realtors right now are in their car going fucking finally somebody fucking said it yeah my wife hates it she's pumped right now are in their car going, fucking finally, somebody fucking said it. Yeah, my wife hates it. She's pumped right now. So there you go. Okay. I plan to move out in the next year because I should probably grow up and find my own place at some point, considering I just hit 30.

You mentioned that for a soon to be married couple, the contributions are investment in their future. This may be a question of whether I should feel entitled to some of the compensation for my years of mortgage contributions since I won't be there to reap the benefits in the future. I didn't plan on asking for anything on my way out because we have a pretty smooth time as roommates. We've had a pretty smooth time as roommates and I'm happy that he made a smart investment and bought what he did. I was the one pushing him to buy when he did though. Interested to hear your guys' thoughts on the situation. Side notes for possible follow-up questions. My time sharing a house has been great. No unreasonable rules or requirements.

Treated like family. He has steep child support payments and he would struggle to afford the house without somebody else contributing, which he's saying is a big reason why he stuck around and paid rent. The money would be nice, but I'll be fine without it.

Here's the deal. I get where you're coming from, right? This is, I think, a very classic example of, well, I'm seeing this my way and I'm not really seeing it that person's way. But my simple answer is no, I don't think you're entitled to anything. This is part of the agreement. He owns the house and he wanted to help with his payments and you needed somewhere to live. And that was the transaction. And that was it. It was never discussed ahead of time. Um, your friends, your roommates, um, you know, there's nothing that leads me to believe there's anything beyond that. And, you know, if I'm him and you were to ask me, hey, can I get a little something maybe on the way out here, I would actually be pissed. Because I'd say, first of all, we never talked about this.

Were you there coming up with a deposit? I don't know what his deposit was. Generally, on this kind of transaction, maybe a $200,000, you don't have to go the full 20%. But that's something for him to have had to put aside to save to go ahead and do the deposit, which I doubt you were involved with. I doubt you were involved with any of the paperwork, the seven times you think you're fucking done. And then somebody goes, hey, what's up with this thing in your checking? Or, hey, how come your gas bill was late 60 days in 2013? That stuff sucks. It sucks. And you didn't have to do any of that stuff. So the other part of this is, let me put it to you this way. If he bought it for

$200,000 and Zillow said it was worth $175,000, would you cut him a check when you moved out? Of course you wouldn't. You'd be like, what are you kidding me? This is your house. You're also on the hook for any of the maintenance as the owner. I doubt you paid any property taxes or you could factor that in and say, well, that covered part of the mortgage thing, depending on how he packages the whole thing. But he's on the hook to maintain it. He's on the hook for the property taxes. He's on the hook for the deposit. He's on the hook for all of the bullshit that goes through having to buy a house because it's just hard to do because they don't just go, Hey, we trust you. Here's your, here are your keys, which again, makes sense. So as much as I can appreciate you kind of having that moment where you go, Whoa,

wait a minute. Like I kicked in 50% of the mortgage, you know, like maybe I should get a little something on top of it. We don't even know if he's selling the house. So what's he supposed to do? Like, Hey, let's agree on a number and I'm going to give you like 10 grand or five grand. And by the way, that's the other thing is if things are tight for him and he has these child support payments, do you know how much it sucks in a house that he's not even selling? Because I don't think you've mentioned at any point that he's going to sell that he's supposed to, and I'm going to guess like five or 10 grand would sting. So he's supposed to just out of nowhere be like, yeah, here's a check because potentially

my house is going to be worth a lot more and you paid rent towards me. So this is a massive, massive no for me. And I wouldn't even ask. But people do. People do. I think being roommates is different than if you're talking about somebody that you're going to be starting a family with. I, so I don't think that they're the same. And I'm honestly surprised that you, when you listen to what we were talking about, then you were like, Hey, this house is worth more on Zillow. Maybe I'll ask this guy about it.

So I remember I had a friend who was paying a pretty steep rent for a nice house in a nice area. And, you know, kids, the kids were in the right school. He wasn't sure how long he was going to be living in the area. And I was,

I said, Hey, did you end up buying this? He goes, no, but you know, I'm hoping maybe after two years of paying rent that we can work something out with the owner.

And I'm like, what are you, high? It doesn't work that way. You don't get time served. It's not the way it works. If I own a house and somebody's paying rent for two years towards it, let's say, I don't know, let's just throw a round number on it. Say I own a house and somebody's paying three grand a month. So now we're at $36,000. We're at $72,000 that they've paid me in rent.

In that time, I've still had to keep up maintenance. I've still had to pay my mortgage on it. I've still had to pay property taxes on all of it. And then say the house is worth $500,000, right? And then the guy after two years of paying me rent says, hey, I'd like to buy the house. And I go, okay, well, you know, make me an offer. Let's figure out something that works. Okay. But first I'd like the price to be $72,000 less because of the rent that I've paid. I'd be

like, hey, those weren't mortgage payments, man. Those are rent payments. So when my friend was like, I'm hoping to work out something with the owner of the house because of all the rent that I paid towards it. Again, not impossible. It depends a lot on the market and maybe the owner wanting to move off of the house but you realize if you were to assume that this person could then apply your rent towards the the purchase price of something that it's like then what was i what was i just doing let you live there for free for a couple years like that's what's what what are we talking about here so we can get very one-sided with the way that we perceive things.

But in this instance, I would say this isn't even debatable for me. And I'm sure somebody will chime in and say, well, actually, this one, I'd be like, no, I'm not changing my mind on this one at all. So, again, I wasn't trying to be harsh. I think you're totally off on this one. Kyle? Yeah. As you know, a big Judge Judy fan, this is like the defendant's counter suit

of harassment or defamation or emotional suffering. It gets baseless and it gets thrown out in two seconds. Judge Judy's like, no, I don't care. I don't care about your emotional suffering. How often has anyone ever in Judy's court for defamation, who's, what level of defamation are we talking defamation? Who's, well, it's always level of defamation.

Are we talking? It's always so funny. Cause it's always Facebook. And it's like, it's like, you know, somebody's hair salon. He's like,

don't go there. She fucked my hair up. She stole from me. And then he's like, that's defamation. It's like, no, you fucked up her haircut.

And so that's not defamation. If it's true. And he's like, yeah, but I lost business. And she talked to my cousin and told my cousin that, that I'm not, I'm no good at hair. And so it's not defamation if it's true. And he's like, yeah, but I lost business. And she talked to my cousin and told my cousin that I'm no good at hair. And so it's always like it's baseless. And it's just like, I get it.

And for this guy, it's like, yeah, all right. So you've been living there. But let's say a tree crashed through the garage while you're living there. You, the renter, isn't involved in repairing that. If the basement floods, you, the renter, isn't there. Just because you have a place to live, I mean, that's the nature of renting. Like you, you have nothing to show for it, but you have all the freedom to leave when you're deciding it's time to get your own place. So that's the trade-off. And you just, you didn't have any of

the stress of having to own this house and keep it running while, while you were living there. So that's, that's why you don't get any of the good stuff when you decide to stop renting. Again, unless, unless it was some sort of 50-50 deal where if a water heater thing came up, he threw in some cash. I'm trying to have any kind of- He would have mentioned that, though. That would be on his side. That would be a case for why he would, and he hasn't made that case.

It goes back to the point where your buddy, I'm sorry, he took on all the risk, man. I know you helped him out and you were paying rent. That's great, but it's not like he's pocketing whatever your rent money is every month, as you said, Ryan. He took on all the risks, man. Like I know you helped him out and you were paying rent and that's great, but it's not like he's pocketing whatever your rent money is every month. As you said, Ryan, he took on the risk. He made the investment at the time. And even if you're, even if he could have not have done it on his own because he needed, you know, a roommate and you to, to live there that you're just kind of shit out of luck, man. That's kind of, it's kind of like business owners, right? Like they're the ones like when these CEOs and they blow up, these companies blow up and they make all this money. Well, they took the risk to start this

business too. Like that, you know, that's, it's not like anybody could have done that. Um, so I kind of look at it the same way. And unfortunately you're kind of just shit out of luck here.

Yeah. I have a really hard time with, you know, when people, people get pissed at other people being successful, starting a business and you just go, do you realize how hard it is to do what this person did i mean and i'm not talking about the we work bullshit and you know some of these other things

that we all read about and i'm fascinated by these but more often than not it's okay what were you doing and and people don't understand the beginning they don't see the beginning they don't see all the hours they don't see all the other stuff and then they see some headline about how much money somebody made and then it just becomes oh that guy you're like what did you think they did he was walking down the street so he just cut him a check um so anyway that's it i think that's the podcast i think i'm good here please subscribe rhyme or solo podcast ringer spotify thanks to kyle and steve kyle who's who's your favorite judge to lease rank the judges rank the tv judges uh okay it's judy mathis uh i like judge hatchett she's not really doing it she's not on the same level anymore um hot bench is three judges and

i really like that so it's gonna go judy why is it hot bench what happens i don't know judy's a executive producer on hot bench but there's three judges and they kind of gang up on the person and then they go into their chambers and deliberate after like two commercial breaks and then they come back and announce it. So it's like Shark Tank for legal issues? Yeah, kind of, but they retire to their chambers and then talk about it

and then the one guy's like, well, I dissent, so they come back and it's three, so somebody always gets overruled, but it's a good show, but I put them all... How hot are they? There's one judge that's pretty hot.

The other one's like sort of milfy. I can't even say that. I gotta, hold on. show but i put them all how hot are they there's one there's one judge that's pretty hot the other one's like sort of milfy i can't even say that i gotta help on i she's she's she's an older woman who's beautiful and then um oh and then there's and then there's a guy who looks like i'd have a beer with so those guys are great stiffler's mom actually yeah and then the people's court judge million i've had a crush on her since i was like 15, but she's number four now. I gotta ask you then, if you're an expert on this, we could probably do 20 minutes with Kyle on this. We won't do it right now because the podcast is over, but

is Steve Harvey even licensed to do this? Definitely not. What were the protocols? Yeah, what were the protocols here with Steve Harvey? Definitely not. I mean, this, I think it's, if you listen to the actual intros, I haven't watched this show yet, but you best believe I will. If you listen to the intros of all these, it's if you if you listen to the actual intros, I haven't watched the show yet, but you best believe I will. If you listen to the intros of all these, it's like these people have a case pending in civil court and they've agreed as to have this person be the mediator, basically.

So none of these things are actually courtrooms, obviously. So they all just sign a contract that whatever this person person X decides is what we'll do. And then they have like a limit of up to like five thousand dollars is all that they can be on the hook for so you can you can sign that contract for anybody i could do it i could be there and they just said yeah i'd watch that and they get paid for this did they get paid i think they get appearance fees i'm pretty sure because once judge judy like hated one guy she's like and she's like first of all he was i think he was the defendant he's like you're gonna you're gonna pay the maximum uh five thousand dollars that we can put you on the hook for. Also, did you did you get an appearance fee for coming today?

He was like, yeah. She's like, well, you're not getting it. Classic Judy. I don't even know if she could do that. But I do know. I think that's why people would agree, because they probably get some sort of appearance fee to fly from Wisconsin to come here and be paraded by Judge Judy. But yeah, embarrass yourself on television. I'll just just say it i don't like judge judy that's a shame why not just don't like her don't like her vibe no no nonsense that's the thing the

legal system can't always sniff this out but she can see when a guy's being dishonest she's no nonsense dude yeah i don't know i think she plays favorites. I was out on her. I watched. Well, do your research before you show up and know what to be. Don't talk over her, you know. I get that part of it. I respect. Don't interrupt when someone's telling the story.

Yeah, but I don't know. I think she sort of kind of sizes somebody up and then that's why the show works. Yeah. She just sizes somebody up. I'm more, you know, courtroom doesn't really work like that guys. Oh no. Yeah. We'll never be watching a marathon.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, seriously, you guys think that's how it works. Fine. Okay. That is the end of the podcast.

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