The Ryen Russillo Podcast - NFL Transitions With Kevin Clark and Brady's Exit With Seth Wickersham | The Ryen Russillo Podcast

Episode Date: March 24, 2020

Russillo is joined by Kevin Clark to discuss the Colts' QB situation with Phil Rivers and Jacoby Brissett, as well as trading for DeForest Buckner. They talk Cam Newton and Jameis Winston, and the Chargers; ask, "What are the Patriots going to do?" and "Will Foles end the Trubisky era in Chicago?"; and ponder the market for Jadeveon Clowney, and much more (2:09). Then Ryen talks with ESPN's Seth Wickersham about his article "The story behind the split of Tom Brady, Bill Belichick and the Patriots" (40:13). Finally, Russillo shares a few thoughts about the new Netflix docuseries 'Tiger King' (56:13). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, what's up? It is the Ryan Rosillo podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network, and it is brought to you by State Farm. Just like basketball, the game of life is unpredictable. Talk to a State Farm agent and get a teammate who can help you navigate the unexpected. or talk to a State Farm agent and get a teammate who can help you navigate the unexpected. Did you see the Paul Pierce High School dunk contest video that was circulating?

Kyle, did you check it out? Is that the one where they were like, put some respect on his name? No, that was after. That was his response after because the high school contest video was bad. And then Pierce, you know, hit up a video showing him dunking on guys in the pros.

That was always the thing with Pierce is that he was always kind of this slower, methodical angle, non-explosive guy, especially coming in with Vince Carter. And that was one of the knocks on Pierce. The idea that Paul Pierce went 10th. And there was a lot of big names in that draft. But it was kind of funny to watch a high school kid because usually that's when you have all your bounce. The weird thing for me is I couldn't dunk, and now I can still hang on the rim. So now I realize that there was just all this untapped, just like, I was like, I don't know what it was.

My bounce was like fracking that you just couldn't get to. The angle was off. If I could still hang on the rim at 44, that just means that I denied myself some serious posters in my 20s. But I don't know. It just didn't work out. I'm getting depressed just thinking about it. Anyway, back to State Farm. Get a teammate who can help you navigate the unexpected.

Talk to a State Farm agent today. Here are my teammates for today's podcast. Kevin Clark from the Ringer Football Show and, of course, all of his pieces that you've seen on the NFL. I'm going to do a big free agency roundup with him. Heavy on the Colts, too. Little Bears, very little Pats because we're going to save that for Seth Wickersham, who has the piece on the Brady-Belichick divorce up on ESPN.com. It's incredible. great timeline stuff. Seth's one of my favorite football writers. So that is the plan for today.

So let's start it off with Kevin Clark. Okay, Kevin, here's the plan. I gave you the list of all the stuff that I want to do regarding NFL free agency. We realize why some of this stuff has gone overlooked because of bigger things going on outside of football. But let's start with the Colts because I was watching some Chris Ballard stuff this morning

where they gave Jacoby Brissett the two-year deal before the season started to get his money up. But at the end of the year, I thought it was really revealing for Ballard, which because most guys just won't even do it, even though it seems like the obvious thing. It's like, look, the jury's still out. We've got a year deal on him. They go ahead and do Philip Rivers. They make a trade in the first round for DeForest Bunkner. Let's start with Rivers. In big picture, what are the Colts doing? The Colts are trying to plug a hole that was incredibly clear in the second half of last season.

Now, Brissette was a little bit banged up, but he was basically the bottom five quarterback the last half of the season. Pro Football Reference has this thing called bad throws. He was at about 20% last season. Rivers was, I think, sixth best in that category at around 14 or 15. And so Brissette wasn't throwing down the field at all. I think he was 29th in the NFL and his ability to even throw the deep pass, let alone be

accurate on it. This is just, I think, the Colts understanding that they have a deep and talented roster and trying to get there. I think the argument for Phillip Rivers is, you know, I had Rich Ornberger on my podcast last week, and he played with Rivers, and he was saying, Rivers is the worst player to have in a bad situation

in the sense that he's such a competitor that he will force balls where they shouldn't go. You know, he's always the kind of the meme about Phillip Rivers. He's always forcing some pass with two minutes left down eight or whatever. He played the entire season like that. He had almost no time to throw. I think they were in the bottom four in offensive line last year.

Now he goes to a top three offensive line by pro football focus. And so I think the argument here is that any decline from Phillip Rivers was almost all situational. And guys trying to do too much is a common theme. Remember Daniel Jeremiah saying this about Patrick Mahomes, is that the reason that he thinks he missed on Mahomes was because Mahomes was making so many bad passes because he felt he always had to keep his team in it. And I think that we probably read too much

and we think this is sort of baseball-y and everything happens in a vacuum. Guys trying to do too much is a very common thing for a lot of good quarterbacks. And that's the best argument for Rivers being better this year, being in a better situation, better receivers, better line, better coaching staff. I love the Mahomes point there because I talked to Kingsbury about that in particular. And it's just always been this thing. It would be like watching Curry in college

have the worst shot selection ever. Right. And then Steph Curry's like the greatest shooter we've ever seen. Um, that's, that's, you know, it's maybe a little harsh to say the worst shot selection ever, but no, it's a really good point. Like we constantly, whenever I think of, you know, Brady's had some picks at the end of playoff games and people would say, Oh, you know, is he really that clutch? And you go, do you realize that his risk like the calculations in his head of a throw that's worth the risk considering game situation and them having to get down to the field and down four or more like what he's willing to do at the end of those games like a lot of people now if you're throwing three picks you know in the second start of the second half of a playoff game it's completely

different than going i need to up the risk on my throws and clearly rivers running around to save his life now for every sunset that we've seen for years i i think you're really on to side like i don't think that's even opinion a weird framing of any of those things i think you almost have to look at him entirely different because it was comical how many times we spent sunday afternoons going up here we go again 14 12, 12, Rivers driving. Well, for so long, for like a decade, Tony Romo was on Fox at like 645 Eastern, and he was driving, and he was on the 10-yard line.

And then you'd flip it over to CBS or DirecTV or whatever, and Rivers would be doing the same thing, but it would be about 40% crazier. Like someone's helmet would be flying off. Rivers would be yelling at people. I mean, they were in the same situation constantly at the same times. It was just a little

brighter in San Diego because Rivers is on the West Coast. Then a much lesser deal, but I think pretty... I don't know. These are higher stakes deals here. You don't see this kind of trade a lot. DeForest Buckner lineman for the Niners, which is

really that Niner strength. I think we can both understand what the Niners are trying to do, worrying about what kind of money is going to be handed out to that group in the future. The Colts grab him. They didn't like their D-line, but they moved the 13th overall pick and followed up by classic reporting. The Colts didn't really like this draft that much anyway, at least

at the... The deepest receiver draft in history. I understand it. I understand the quarterback part of it. They probably didn't think you'd get a good quarterback or maybe they were going to have to reach to get Jordan Love at 13 or whatever. I understand that part of it. I understand why the Niners did this. So it's just good business for them, by the way, to get four really good years out of a first-round pick and then get a first-round pick back from a

top half of the first-round pick. I think that D line in San Francisco, obviously, I'm like we don't have to talk about how nasty it was, but retaining Eric Armstead at $4 million a year less than what Buckner got and getting a first-round pick, I can understand it. Obviously Dee Ford and Joey Bosa. When Dee Ford

played last year, Joey Bosa was the best pass rusher in football, something like that. And with their interior pressure, Armstead and Buckner and their ability to do twists and all this stuff and the complicated stuff they were able to do up front, that was the reason that they wrecked games. So they do have to replace

DeForest Buckner inside because in order to replicate what they did last year, they need a game-wrecking presence like that. But from a value standpoint, I understand why the Niners did it. With the Colts, yeah, they can improve their front. I saw some of the pro football focus guys arguing against this pick only because they think there's a limited value that interior pass rushers, even Aaron Donald, have. 19.5 sacks last two years. DeForest Buckner just wrecks games.

I understand the argument. I've seen a couple of plays from a couple of smart people, which is the guys get rid of the ball so quickly now that you have to have some sort of interior game-wrecking presence to get the hand up, move the pocket, or that kind of stuff. Because you can essentially scheme out outside pressure. And you can step up in the pocket or that kind of stuff because you can essentially scheme out outside pressure. And you can step up in the pocket, whatever. If you're going against Mahomes in the second round of the playoffs, you need a guy who's just going to push the pocket back, get in his face, and just try to wreck the game a little bit from the interior because Mahomes is smart enough to figure out outside pressure. That's the sort of scheme argument, and that's what the Colts are

trying to do. Yeah, I understand it what the Colts are trying to do. Yeah, I understand from the Colts' side of it, even though we love that cost certainty of the first few years, but when you have that kind of talent on that Niners' front, they're getting ahead of making a decision here and getting more value back. So even though I'd love to see that Niners' line stay the way it is, at least for another year coming off of that thing, you're right. The smarter teams kind of look at this and go, hey, we already know what problem's waiting us here, so why don't we get the best asset now for this? So I actually think it makes a ton of sense for both sides. Okay. Let's talk other quarterbacks here. What's the market for Cam Newton? So Cam and Jameis are in the same spot,

which is this is the weirdest quarterback market I can remember. Do you remember ever a time when the quarterback supply outstripped the demand ever? It's never happened. And part of the reason is because the spread offense and these guys coming out of college have thrown 10, you know, essentially between 2000, what six, seven and 2016, nobody had any idea what to do with these guys. And that's why a generation of Marcus Mariota's were, were ruined by a generation of Mike Malarkey's. And so I think that Cam Newton needs to go to a place. I think Cam and James are different situations.

I think Cam needs to go to a place where he can start. If he gets healthy, I thought, why can't he go to the Chargers? Why can't the Chargers take a flyer on him? And if he doesn't get healthy, roll with Tyrod. That's a great roster. We'll talk about that a little bit later.

But I think that he needs to go to a place like that, like maybe Denver. Let's see if he can't beat out Drew Locke if he gets healthy, something like that. And just try to get healthy in a good organization where he'll have time to rehab, nobody has to worry about anything, and kind of roll,

and a team can kind of take a flag on him, sign him to a one-year, $8 million deal, something like that. The Patriots don't have the cap space, but it'd be a nice kind of FU move by Cam to try to go and resurrect his career with Belichick. He's basically just, what, taken Cody Kessler's spot on the roster.

That's fine from Belichick's standpoint. If he would take $2 million or something like that just to try to resurrect his career, I'd understand. With Jameis, I think he should go to some really smart offensive coach and be a backup for a year and try to get the Teddy Bridgewater hype

if he goes 4-0 in a stint somewhere. Why can't he go to New Orleans? Why can't he try? I mean, they re-signed Chad Henney, but why can't he try to go play for Andy Reid, something like that? And just get in the system because unfortunately, there's not enough starting jobs right now. So if I'm Jameis right now, I just try to reset the career a little bit. So what do we have as far as open markets then right now? What do you think the Chargers are doing then if they're not interested in either of those guys? I mean, God, when you're throwing out those numbers,

maybe you're right. I mean, I know New England, I think, has the second least amount of cap space when I was looking at this stuff this morning. But the idea that Cam still coming off of an injury would be a $2 or $4 million a year quarterback, I don't know if this is just being delayed because of everything that's going on and they can't really get him into a facility and yeah take a look the lack of physical they cannot give him a physical till the coronavirus is over and and by the way the redskins doctor came out yesterday

and said we basically have to ban this until it's over not like not like we're gonna put a date on it everyone can do it june 1st he's like until this whole thing's over. Not like we're going to put a date on it. Everyone can do it June 1st. He's like, until this whole thing is over, we're not doing any physical. So that could be... I'm not going to get into when that's going to end, but I'm just saying that could be a long time from now. So if you're the Chargers, I understand why you'd be hesitant, but

yeah, I get what you're saying. I'm actually surprised. Why wouldn't the Chargers... Would the Chargers just not feel safe about... I guess it just could be as simple as travel, but I'm actually surprised. Why wouldn't the Chargers? Would the Chargers just not feel safe about... I guess it just could be as simple as travel. But I'm surprised. If you had a lot of interest in camp, and you go,

well, everything that's going on, we can't really get a physical. Well, let's figure out a way to get a physical. If it's just two guys in a room, why can't we do that when we're talking about... I mean, we can get into all the rules of what everybody's supposed to be doing. I'm surprised the team wouldn't, if they really liked him that much. And maybe that's the whole point.

Like I've always had that thing when Vince Young couldn't get another job and people were like, what the hell, what the hell? Look at his, look at his start, you know, look at the one lost record at the beginning of his career. And you just go, yeah, but sometimes the NFL kind of just confirms what, what we may think about a quarterback in that there's just a lot of people around the league going, eh, I don't know. Jameis throws a million picks. Cam, especially now, we don't know if he's hurt or not. So as far as you're concerned,

the Chargers are still a what? TBD or they have a plan? Okay, so they didn't trade for him. So Rappaport has the report that the Bears and the Chargers were offered him in a trade. And really, I mean, listen, all 31 of their teams were offered him in a trade because everyone knew Cam Newton was available since November.

But I think that the Chargers didn't want to take a swing at a $21 million cap hit. I'm not sure if that was his cap hit. 19 maybe? I think it was. Yeah.

Sposrack has a close yeah it's 19 in cash you'd make 19 in cash and so um that would you would definitely have that as the baseline for the cap so what um i is around 19 or 20 so i i think that they didn't want him at that number if you're them now you have to you have to look into it and i understand why they don't want to do the the physicals or whatever but i mean this was made david canter the agent made this point i mean is there an nfl player who doesn't live within an hour of an nfl facility like i i why can't the is the falcons doctor busy like why can't we have a little bit of of uh community uh physicals here where one team sends x-rays to another team or whatever.

That would be my solution to this sort of thing. Because if you're the PA right now, one of the things that people talked about that some of the cap guys were talking about is there was no middle tier for agency this year. It was the top, top tier and Amari Cooper going for $100 million. And then we almost went right to the bargain basement. There was almost no middle class. A lot of guys taking one-year prove-it deals. And I think part of that is because the teams didn't want to take risks. And by the way, the same thing is going to happen in the draft where you're going to see a very risk-averse league because we don't have less tape or info on small school guys or guys who are question marks.

Teams are probably just going to pass on because they don't get these medical rechecks and pro days and stuff. But if you're the PA right now, don't you want a Cam Newton or a Jameis Winston to get signed? And doesn't that require a little bit of effort on pretty much everybody's part to make sure that the questions that the teams might have are answered? I would think so. But I can only think that probably there's a handful of teams that trust no one, where they just go, you know, for a fact. There might be 32 of those, actually. Yeah, that's even better said. All I can think of is one of the times where there was a Patriots player hurt a game against

Cincinnati. This is almost 20 years ago, and he was towards the Cincinnati sideline, and Cincinnati trainers is kind of protocol when the other team's player is right next to you, writhing in pain. You just go to check and see how he's doing, and Belichick was like, get the fuck away from my player. They were like, all right. When I was in college,

the Saints were practicing at the University of Miami campus during the Super Bowl, the week of the Super Bowl, and I was parked in the garage right above Green Tree where they practiced. And I had no idea they were even there. And I was a junior in college or whatever. And I walked to my car and I spent like five seconds just looking at practice. I was just like, Hey, look, the Saints are here. I'm a college kid. I'm just looking at practice. And within those five seconds, a Saints security guard somehow found me. I was just like, hey, look, the Saints are here. I'm a college kid. I'm just looking at practice. And within those five seconds,

a Saints security guard somehow found me. I was like the fourth floor of a garage. And he was like, if you spend one more second looking there, I'm threatening,

I'm going to call the cops. That's awesome. You look sketchy though, anyway. That's true. Yeah, and I was, you know, I mean, come on, it was college.

I probably looked significantly sketchy. I probably hung over. I mean, I probably looked like I was stealing something for somebody. Like, what was that? Was that red go? Was that red go? What was that? Let me get my charts out. My favorite thing about paranoia with coaches is sometimes I'll be in a room and they'll be like, they'll have their boards up on a whiteboard, their plays up on a whiteboard, or they'll say something to another coach and I'll have my tape recorder on. They'll be like, you have to delete

that. It's like, dog, I have no idea what you're talking about. It'll always be like some random red hot 62 dog go thing written on the board. And they'll be like, you can't steal that now. And I'm like, what am I going to do do with that i remember when we would take pictures of ourselves like we would have to do it for college game day and different stuff and then they'd look at the picture to be like wait a minute did you get did you get our recruiting thing in the background i'd be like yeah we have everybody's gonna lose their minds you have the four star four star guys higher on your list than the three-star guys like behind you exactly you have Nate you have names of players that everybody knows on your board wow no way okay I'll get to some more rapid

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You never know how bad the grocery stores are going to be. Seriously, it actually makes a ton of sense right now. Okay, let's fire through some more stuff here then. So how many teams can we put under the to-be-determined quarterback thing here? The Chargers? Fair. Yeah, I mean, I think you should always, and I think Mario to answer some of these questions, and they kind of, they gave significant money to them,

so I guess they're set for this year, but I never truly trust John Gruden to be done with the quarterback just because things go south for any quarterback he has under him so quickly. Just the relationship. I feel like the biggest mistake that teams make when they sign a quarterback to a big contract like Derek

Carr is they treat him like a franchise quarterback instead of upgrading, and I think John Gruden is not making that mistake, and I think that you just never know with that. I would say the Chargers, I would also say, I mean, are we totally sure? Why wouldn't, if something crazy happens, why wouldn't the Broncos try to at least create some competition for Drew Locke? I think they really like him. And then, you know, the thing that I always think is kind of silly about the whole deal is how we get into the mind games of it all, right? Where it's, well, they really really like julek so we don't want to bring somebody else in here in competition

and mess with him and then my thinking is always if anybody's going to be really good they're just going to be really good like none of these other things are going to happen and then you know i saw a stat today about how rogers rested brady restedomes rested, and look how good all these guys are, you know, rest everybody. And then you're like, yeah, I don't know. I, you know, I don't, Rogers thing was crazy. Cause he sat around for far of retirement every year. Brady's thing was totally unpredictable because somebody got hurt and Bledsoe who has never really hurt. Um, I'm, I'm with you in that, like I'm, I'd be open-minded to it. I don't know how Cam would handle kind of being the man for a decade for a franchise

despite the ups and downs of it to now you're backing up a kid that was lip-syncing to Jeezy on the sideline. So I understand what you're saying. The snowman. And the Jeezy is a red flag without a doubt. I think that the competition thing is interesting to me. I see the value in someone like Ryan Fitzpatrick where Ryan Fitzpatrick beat out Josh Rosen.

And we quickly found out that Josh Rosen just isn't the guy we thought he was. Maybe there's some questions about Arizona and all that. And then he gets beat out by Fitzpatrick. We understand. You need a baseline competence there where if the guy is actually And then he gets beat out by, by, by Fitzpatrick. We understand you need like a baseline competence there, where if the guy's actually bad, he gets beat out. I actually am okay with quarterback competitions.

I'm, I'm in your camp where if, if, if Drew Locke gets beat out by a unhealthy Cam Newton, then Drew Locke's not the guy you need to commit the next 10 years to. And that's the question you're going to be. That's the question you should always be asking yourself with a quote-unquote franchise quarterback,

is are you going to commit to him for the next, for the foreseeable future? And I think the only way you find that out is little steps like, can he beat out a guy we took a flyer on? I see that. I'm with you. I like competition,

and that's the whole point. That's your answer. Like, if Cam Newton comes in here into camp and Drew Loc lock crumbles because of competition and us not buying into him, then what the hell is he going to do in a big spot, you know, to get into the playoffs or if we're lucky enough to even play in a playoff game, like he'd be giving us the answer to who he is as a guy. And I'm not even saying this specifically about drew lock, but I do know they really like him a lot. Even though going back a year ago, the word was he wasn't close. Like, oh, man, this guy, this guy really isn't ready.

So he's an incredible story. Because you hear the same stuff about Haskins. Like, hey, this guy really isn't ready. This guy's not ready. We still don't know what the Redskins are with him at the position. But, you know, we'll wait on Locke, excuse me, on Drew Locke as well. All right, let's do a couple more. Pats, what's the a couple more pats.

What's the plan now? It can't just be Stidham and Hoyer, right? Well, I think that at some point they're going to bring in one of these guys, whether that's, whether that's an Andy Dalton or, I mean,

even if, if Derek Carr at some point becomes expendable, I don't know how that situation is going to play out. Not Jameis. That's the Patriots supporters made that very clear, to play out. Not Jameis. The Patriots report has made that very clear. But then maybe a Cam Newton. Again, if Cam Newton wants to take a deep, deep, deep discount to fit into that cap,

I still think that Belichick wants to kind of taste some Hildes a little bit. And I think that he's been so fascinated, going back a decade, when Tim Tebow was at Florida, Bill Belichick, you know how the joke is he always talks about left-footed punters and special teams or whatever at press conferences. Some of the most eloquent answers he's ever given were about the single wing and going back to the 1920s, 1930s, and how the read option and the Urban Meyer spread stuff down in college, how that was just

all very cyclical and very single wingy. And he seemed very fascinated with that. And I've always thought that he wanted to try to reinvent the game a little bit in that way. And no one is a bigger student of the game. We've talked about how I once asked him about Paul Brown. He had no idea what I was talking about, but he really does kind of appreciate history more than maybe any other football coach. And I think he would like to tinker with the position a little bit. And I think that if he does bring in a sturdy veteran,

or even if he rolls with someone like Stidham or Brian Hoyer, I think there's going to be some experimentation, but I just don't know what that looks like yet. Who starts more games for the Bears, Foles or Trubisky? Foles, without a doubt. You don't trade for Foles and pay him that money. I think that Trubisky drove everybody in that building insane.

I just feel like there was just a cloud hanging over it because they were like, we're stuck with this guy. And once you make that move, And this is... I remember going on Chicago radio around the Super Bowl. And I said, this is what they have to do. They have to bring in a guy who's a veteran who can just beat out Trubisky and end this thing. You don't have to go and trade five picks for Joe Burrow or two or whatever, or go out and try to get a franchise guy. Just go out and get a guy who can beat Mitch Trubisky and end this chapter

of Bears football. It's not going to get any better with Trubisky. Trubisky is not going to get any better. He's not going to turn it on. No, I don't. I'm out on that one all the way out. Although Chase Daniel, it was great that him getting into a game banked him. I think he's going to end up being about

$50 million with five career starts. Who else? Who else? Okay, you know what? This uncertainty of everything, which is probably as good a way to put it as anything, just not knowing, I am not in the camp that the NFL needs to make any dramatic decisions here when we're still in March. But how do you think some of the teams have positioned themselves like is there any element of this delay that helps certain teams and maybe has even influenced their approach in the offseason

yeah so the answer is yes and so one of the forgotten things of the 2011 lockout season was bill belichick basically changed his playbook because he knew there was going to be limited practice time and it was going to be guys learning their teammates' names on the fly. And he essentially changed his defense to be more familiar and more easy to learn. And I think that kind of coaching is going to be valuable this time because OTAs, write them off. They're done. And you're looking at... They're not going to randomly have OTAs over a 4th of July weekend if this thing gets solved and then have training camp three weeks later.

So my guess is they're aiming for the beginning of training camp. Maybe they'll have some sort of virtual rookie mini camp or whatever, get everybody on the same page, but I just don't think they're going to have everybody flying around beginning of May. And so I think it's going to come down to veteran teams. You look at the 2011 season, which is the best guidepost for this. The Giants obviously won the Super Bowl. That was a veteran team that won the Super Bowl three and a half years earlier. The Patriots were good. Ravens,

Packers. I mean, it was really with the exception of the Niners, who obviously Jim Harbaugh is a really good coach. Most of those teams were holdovers. And for me, I think the veteran teams who have adaptable smart coaches who understand what the realities of the season are going to be, that's important. You think about the Ravens. They were already good last year.

Then they add Calais Campbell and Michael Brockers. And it's not going to take a lot for those guys to get on the same page. There's going to be a lot of continuity there. I think John Harbaugh is a top five coach. And so he's going to be able to sort of figure out what is needed. I think Lamar Jackson's pretty, if you didn't notice pretty much has the,

the offense down. So I think that there's, it's going to be, it's going to favor the teams that were already good. And I think that... I joke around about this a lot, but I'm a huge Formula 1 fan. And one of the things that Formula 1 did a number of years ago

was they, in order to make everything fair, they limited how much you could practice. And that actually didn't make things fair at all. It just made the teams that were already good much better because the worst teams couldn't practice to get better and if you get rid of if you're a new coaching staff and you have otas canceled rookie minicamp canceled what's pretty damn hard to quote-unquote establish a culture tom brady the big thing now is oh he won he's going to come to otas he wants his teammates phone numbers all that well when's

he going to throw to these guys when does he get when's the first time tom brady's going to have 10 guys in front of him with that he's actually going to play with in September and be able to run these plays? It's something we're probably not talking about enough. Give me the market for Jadavian Clowney. I'm confused by this. So the word is he wanted $20 million a year, and he's not getting it. But I mean, this is a league where Dante Fowler is getting 16. year and he's not getting it. But I mean, this is a league where Dante Fowler is getting 16. So my guess is he either signs a one or two year deal at what's called 17 or 18. I mean, he's better than Dante Fowler on the D line. Sometimes this league overthinks itself. I understand those questions about his game to game, quote unquote, motor, but he's better than

a lot of these guys. And if I'm the seahawks i try to bring him back seahawks have done a nice job this offseason um getting a couple value picks and i think that quentin dunbar again fifth round value just like the ravens um using fifth round picks to their advantage i think the seahawks are smart and they'll try to bring clowney back on a on a reasonable deal they'll give him a little bit of money somebody else that i thought maybe would have a little bit more interest just because the scarcity of offensive linemen is jason peters at left tackle i know he's older but he has played 16 and 13 in the last two seasons after missing half the season 2017 i don't know what the ask is but did you expect maybe a little bit more

interest in peters yeah i expected that i think the tackle market is is sort of weird um trent williams who the hell knows what's going on with that situation? His agent released a statement today that it's time to trade him. Everyone in Philadelphia loved him. This is a league where Trent Brown, his cap hit this year is $21 million. The ability to get someone like Jason Peters on a flyer, essentially, unless he's asking for big money. We don't know about it. I would be calling every day if I were an NFL team trying to get that solidified because I think that those sort of veteran tackles, Andrew

Whitworth's a different situation, but those guys, you don't have to worry about them. I don't know how Peters will age, but again, as you said, he played 29 games the last two years. I would bring him in if possible. Hey, I just wanted to let everybody know you should check out Dirty Money on Netflix, a new series. This is the second season that they've run it. It's really good stuff. And that your wife is the star of the Wells Fargo one where she was investigating this. Now, I wonder, does that mean because she's so smart on the financial stuff that you have to explain and justify every expenditure as a family? Pretty much, yeah.

Yeah, she understands this stuff, and she also wins every argument about any financial things. also wins every argument about any financial things like if if i well just in the sense that like if i'm like oh i think it'd be wise to invest in this she'll be like well you know that i uh she's very cash she's a nice person in the world but she would just be like very casually just slip in like you know i've i've written about uh banks for a decade and i go yeah that's that's true i forgot about that so is that her wheelhouse now she is she with the wall street journal as well like you were yeah right so yeah she is but she actually covers you want to say her name just so her name's emily her name's emily glazer and she actually covers uh the political side of it now um because of the 2020 election but yeah her wheelhouse is

she's basically covered finance she covered covered finance for seven years. Now she covers politics, but it's still money and tech and all that stuff. It's all that intertwined. My favorite part about that is that it's, once again, another example of everybody that's a financial analyst, not your wife here, but everybody that they're running these clips of defending Wells Fargo.

Kramer going, I mean, I thought he was going to make out with the ceo stuff uh at some point and then i think kevin o'leary aka mr perfect from shark tank who i think is just taking it out on people now but he i think there's a clip of him being on one of one of the shows and i should say say CNBC, not MSNBC. I saw him on one of the shows yelling at the lawyers that were coming after Wells Fargo. I remember being a customer of Wells Fargo because

I had a mortgage with them, and then the next thing I know I had all of these accounts, and they were constantly hitting me with these fees. I'd be like, why would I have any money in this account? And they're like, well, you have a mortgage, so you should do the credit card too. Like, it doesn't matter. None of it matters.

They did refund me my overdraft fees, which didn't make any sense anyway, because it was like drawing from two different accounts that I never even used. So she was awesome at it. What was the weirdest thing that Wells Fargo charged you for that you didn't even know you had? Did they give you a car loan even though you didn't have a car or something?

No, it wasn't necessarily that bad. They were always asking me... They would check in every now and then and be like, how do you feel about your finances and everything? And I'd be like, well, I don't know. They could always be better, but I don't... Who's this? Cliff in Oklahoma City? Sorry, but you're not going to be managing my money. And it wasn't, you know, it wasn't as nasty as some other stuff or like a Madoff thing that I'm reading about in Gladwell's book right now in trusting strangers and, and, um, always switching back to default of, of truth or trust, I guess. Have you started to read that book by the way, talking to someone? I have not yet. It's on, it's on my list. It's on my list. Yeah. Check it out. Um, but yeah, I mean, it's just another,

it's actually disheartening because I've had this theory that I've been developing now for more and more, I don't know, I guess I would say the last couple of years, you just go like, I'm starting to think just everything is full of shit

and you navigate it in whatever way you can. I agree with you. Yeah, and I appreciate the shout out. My wife was awesome. She is awesome. She was awesome. Yeah. All right. everybody check it out Kevin Clark can I ask you one more question

yeah do you feel weird that not enough teams including the Panthers are tanking for Trevor Lawrence tanking in the NBA is different than everything else because one player changes everything the only difference would be a quarterback here with the NFL so yes I see what you're saying but I just think it's really

really hard like whenever I bring up tanking and the football guys that we worked with at espn it was just like gag inducing like telling jeff saturday hey you're gonna tank this year you know bill polian i remember bringing it up you know like polian obviously was always wicked friendly anyway but um i always get along with polian i i don't know what do you think you think a team should just sort of say, hey, we're actually really going to go ahead and do this for 16 games? It's tough to do. I think that the Panthers looked like they were going to do it, and then they gave Teddy

Bridgewater $20 million a year, which I think as a player is a really good signing, but from a team standpoint, it sends mixed messages. You can't trade Trey Turner for almost nothing in return. I don't know. If i was an owner right now kind of in that zone what we're talking about where you don't really have a plan i would

i would try to blow it up if you're matt rule wouldn't you rather have trevor lawrence than two years two after this two more years of teddy bridgewater 20 years per uh yeah but you know i wanted to make sure it would be locked in the teddy bridgewater one i am with you and i sensed it when you said it there a little bit but bridgewater has this thing where it's almost like a guy that you've never hung out with but you've seen him at other things and everything looks cool like you've never had dinner with him or spent a night out with him but like you saw him in a lobby on your way to something else and like after five or six of those you're like man that guy seems great should hang out, but you don't actually know.

I feel like Teddy has been in and out of the picture long enough in his career that some people are convinced like he's a guy that's going to come in and take you to another level at 16 games. And I have, I have no evidence. I have think more evidence that tells me he's, he's league average at best. Yeah.

I mean, I think you can be a fine quarterback in the right situation. I just don't know if, if I think you'd be a fine quarterback in the right situation. I just don't know if... I think he could be a good quarterback in the right situation. I just think that Carolina is not New Orleans. Matt Rule is not Sean Payton. And that roster is not the Saints roster last year.

So I think that's going to be a weird time for everybody. Well said. Do you have anything to promote for this week? Ring Run NFL show got a slow news day coming on Wednesday. Special guest Mina Kimes. And we're going to Zoom it. We're going to have some Zoom slow news days

for the next five years. You should have your wife work on that story. The Zoom stock versus the other Zoom stock where everybody buys the wrong Zoom and then it goes crazy and then there's a massive sell-off the next day when everybody sees that they bought the wrong one. I love it. It's so great. Have her dig into that. Maybe just a tweet.

I'm going to follow her. Thanks, man. Thanks, Ryan. Good stuff with Kevin. We'll get to Wickersham here in a moment. But first, the Black Tux believes every groom deserves a better experience when it comes to finding formal wear, a suit, or tuxedo for their big day. It was actually started by two guys who had one of the worst tuxedo fittings you could imagine. The Black Tux easy online ordering process brings your suit or tuxedo straight to you.

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The BlackTux formal wear for the moment, as I've said, with the BlackTux because I enjoyed my experience so well and for so much. And I did not get paid to do this. I don't get paid extra for this at all. But if you have any problems or whatever, just hit me up on Twitter at Ryan A. RUESSILLO. And I'll try to help any problems you're having with the Black Tux, not just regular problems because nobody has time for that. One more thing. Today's podcast is sponsored by ADT Commercial for Business. ADT Commercial serves businesses ranging from midsize organizations to large scale enterprises. Think of them as a special team who

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No pain that's good in sports and good in business security. Visit ADT.com forward slash game day to learn more that's adt.com forward slash game day well he's been on this story now for years he's been hinting at it i don't know if he knew definitively maybe he knew more than he ever let on but it's seth wickersham senior writer espn outside the lines whose piece goes through the timelines of br Brady's decision to move on from the New England Patriots or was it really Belichick's decision made for Brady so I

want to do this in two parts I've mapped it out here let's start on the Brady side we'll get to the Belichick side and try to figure this thing out here was he done after the Tennessee playoff loss man so he just said today that he wasn't. I mean, he said that he decided the night that he drove to Robert Kraft's house. But I'll tell you, man, he sure put off a vibe that he was over it. And I was at that game, and I've seen him after playoff losses, after Super Bowl losses. And he came into that news conference like a hurricane out of the locker room. And then he did something he's never done before after one of those big losses. He took his time. He was in no rush to get out of there. He answered people's questions, most of which had to do with his future.

After they yelled last question, he answered several last questions. And then he left with his wife. His daughter was in his arms sleeping because it was such a late game. And they left Gillette Stadium. And it was clear, and I wasn't the only one. I was there with Jeff Darlington at ESPN. He's been all over the story. Peter King was there. It was clear that Brady knew that he might be doing something that he had done a lot for the very last time. When was it at its worst during the timeline? Because there's a lot of stuff that you point out. I have always thought that Alex Guerrero, his trainer,

having access to the facility, and then there are these camps that were sort of divided by players that were going to him instead of Pat Staffers. Even if Guerrero is a wizard, it's a really odd thing. And anybody that understands trainers, like every trainer thinks every other trainer is wrong and an idiot. Does Tom not understand how divisive this is, even if his guy is the man? But then it feels like at times maybe it was even worse. There's a lot of little things that may be stacked up, but what do you believe was maybe the most contentious time between Bill and Brady? when you have Tom who always took the high road, stood by the organization, even during the Spygate days. And then I think that there was a sense, at least from the people close to him, that the organization just kind of put this thing in his lap. Like Bill Belichick did it right before the Super Bowl. And then Robert Kraft waved the white flag

when he decided to not challenge the league on the suspension. Now, look, I don't know if Kraft could have done anything. It's not like he can sue the NFL. He's an owner. But I think there was a sense that, look, here's a guy who was always a good soldier, a model citizen, and look what you guys did

when this ridiculous scandal came up. And then the second thing I would say was, yeah, the fall of 2017. I mean, there was issues in the building with Alex Guerrero, issues in the building with the TB12 method and how it pitted players in the middle with the Patriots trainers on one side and the TB12 method on the other. But the other thing that I wrote about at the time was that Brady wanted a contract extension. He had just won his fifth Super Bowl and he reiterated his goal to play until his mid-40s. And I think he wanted a contract that reflected that and supported that commitment. But honestly, I think that if the

Patriots didn't want to give it to him, he was okay moving on. I think he just wanted clarity. And what he got was clarity of a different sort. I mean, he skipped the off-season program, sent a bunch of weird messages out there in the world, including saying, I plead the fifth when asked if he was appreciated, got $5 million worth of incentives, new incentives in August of 2018, which he didn't hit. And then in August of 2019, the negotiations went so bad, he almost left training camp and signed what was essentially a one-year deal in which he could void out of. And so all of this stuff was coming. But I do think that those were the two moments where it was at its worst. So as Kraft has tried to sell everyone in the media

on this, and I cannot emphasize this enough how absurd his campaigning has been here because it doesn't make any sense in that he thought Brady was driving over that night to work out a contract extension quietly. He has put this all on Brady as if it exists only as Brady's decision. Do you think they could have figured out a way to make this work? Like what did Tom need to make this work? If you believe that he actually wasn't done after that Tennessee loss. I mean, I think that he wanted a, a commitment for two years without qualifiers.

And I think that he wanted, you know, a sense that Belichick wanted him there and, you know, Bill will just not let up. And, you know, Bill will just not let up. And, you know, Albert Breer of Sports Illustrated had a great piece of reporting in his Monday column where he just said, you know,

Brady wasn't going to beg for his job and Belichick wasn't going to beg for him to come back. And if we can just like look at the big picture, I mean, these guys are such portraits of extremes. In one sense, you have Tom Brady saying he's going to play until his mid forties and working his ass off to live up to that. I mean, that just doesn't happen that often. I remember his dad once told me, he was like, you know, Tom's going to be a modern day George Blanda and nobody believed it. Not even coaches within the Patriots believed it, but sure enough, here he is,

sincere as ever about trying to accomplish that goal. And then you have Bill Belichick, who's part of his geniuses knowing exactly when to move on from a player. So those two philosophies, those two goals were always going to be at odds. So on Bill's side, and even though Tom may have wanted Bill

to deviate from his approach, like Bill, I think, takes pride, almost joy, in showing how little he'll ever deviate. I wonder, do you think there's any part of him that enjoys that he showed that no one is going to make him bend the way he puts together a roster? I don't know. I don't know if joy is the right word, but I think that, you know, I talked to someone who knows him very, very, very well and just said, look, you know, Bill probably felt it was time. And I know there was a report out there that he said that he was kind of surprised that Tom decided to move on. But I think that, you know, just the way that these contract negotiations have gone shows where Bill's head's at. I think that's, you know, he's a tough guy to read. He's not somebody who shares his opinion about things, you know, to the world as we all know. But one declaration of how he feels about a player is the type of contract that he offers. And we don't have all the details from the contract that they offered him,

but we do know that he was comfortable going year to year and not giving him a two-year commitment. So Tom's stats, as I pointed out, against pressure, not great. The red zone numbers were atrocious for Tom. The overthrow numbers that could be argued, they've always been kind of bad because he's so smart with how he has his almost planned incompletions. There were just a lot of numbers

that collectively yell at him up and you go, man, maybe this is the whole point. You mentioned in your piece that the Pat Scouting reports, their internal reports on their own players are shocking and that even the ones on Tom, is there anything more that you can tell us about that? Because I thought that was an incredible nugget that maybe means you can't share more. But does it mean, as you're just saying, that the internal scouting report from the Patriots on their own quarterback was this guy's lost it? Well, you know, look, big picture. They always believe they can find a winning game plan no matter who's on their roster, even with Brady being the backstop. And I'm not saying that this is completely rational. I'm not defending it. I'm just saying this

is how it is. They have always felt that they can take what each of their players do best and assemble a winning game plan around it. And that's proven wildly successful. With Brady, I mean, remember back in 2017, he had Gronk open on a deep route

midway through the season. And for whatever reason, and the Patriots at the time believed that he didn't think he had the confidence to get the ball there. He dumped the ball off to Hogan, I believe, on a shorter crossing route. And that was the play where Hogan, I believe, broke his collarbone. That type of stuff factors into the scouting report. He had a guy open and instead went for the short thing, and it ended up hurting one of their key receivers. And I'll refer you to Ian O'Connor,

my colleague in his book, Belichick, had this amazing anecdote where one of the Patriots coaches told him, hey, look, we think we could win. Give us any of the top 15 or so quarterbacks in the NFL, and we think we could win with them. Now, look, we know that they're not Hall of Famers. They know that they're not icons in the franchise history. But we think we could assemble something that would put together a winning game plan. I mean, when Patriots coaches leave and interview for other jobs, owners ask them, what are you going to do without Tom Brady? What are you going to do without Tom Brady? And they have to have something that can get the owners on board that allows them to believe that the success of New England

is something other than the most accomplished quarterback ever. And so that's the best way I can explain that in terms of how they view those things. Every QB decision, whenever I look at draft stuff, and really maybe not draft stuff, but trade stuff in the NBA, people will be like, Oh,

they got to break this up or they got to do this. You're going to do that. And you're like, okay, but everything is immediately followed by what are your options. So it's the same way with quarterbacks. Like you can think Tom is this, you can think you can only pay him this.

And I do think that there's part of it where they wanted to, I think there is a level that you can be disrespectful to Tom Brady and they chose to go that route. And they can say that it's just their way and that's fine. It works. But I don't understand why you couldn't just be more, more forthcoming with him instead of letting him be like, Hey,

us, us kind of slow playing you as your answer, instead of just saying, Hey, this is exactly how we feel, Tom. And it isn't just a number I'm going to tell you with my words. But to do this and now have it be Stidham, they bring in Hoyer. I get if they want to move on from Tom, but it can't be for this.

So do you have any insight into what their plans are? Yeah, I mean, it will be fascinating to watch. And I mean, I don't know what they're going to do with the quarterback position. We knew that they were going to bring in a veteran that turned out to be Brian Hoyer. You know, who knows what they're going to do. But I mean, whoever ends up ending up on center be under so much pressure. I cannot even imagine.

I mean, even Tom Brady, when he took over for Drew Bledsoe, was not analyzed on a throw-by-throw basis by the public like, you know, Jared Stidham or Brian Hoyer, whoever it will be, um, whoever that quarterback will be. I mean, that is to be an incredibly different and difficult situation to step into

nine Superbowls. I mean, good, good. Every time I read that sentence, I kind of chuckle a bit. Be like, he played in nine Super Bowls.

Unbelievable. You met him right after September 11th, November 2001, the team store, as you mentioned in your piece. What's it been like kind of knowing this guy in the role of media member? So I would say you're outside whatever it is, but I feel like you've had a longer standing relationship with him than probably anyone else out there covering the NFL. And I've always said this about you to a lot of people, Seth just has a way about him where his features are as good as anyone. And I think it has a lot to do with your personality and how you cultivate these relationships, which is a very delicate thing. You could do something, especially with somebody

like Brady, who can be so me against the world that it could piss him off. So how have you been able to kind of observe him and what has that been like in getting to know this guy and still probably not being 100% sure of his decision despite 20 years of information? Yeah. I mean, there's always an element of mystery to him, to all great athletes. I remember a couple of years ago that Kobe Bryant documentary came out and it was this great behind the scenes look at how Kobe trained and there was so much rage and anger and how he propelled himself to make himself great. And I asked Brady, I think I sent him an email just saying like, Hey, did you watch this? Is that what it's like? You know, did you watch this and think that that's you in any way? And he just said,

ah, he's the Mamba. I mean, there's always been an element, Brady, that nobody can quite get to. The most interesting time I just remember was in the offseason of 2013. And at that point, it looked like, and certainly some of the Patriots coaches looked like, that he was in sort of the downhill slide of his career. He hadn't closed very well in a couple games. They hadn't won a Super Bowl in 10 years at that point, I believe, around that. And he was searching. And I remember he had me over at his apartment for a story in Boston in the Back Bay on Beacon Street. And he was just starting to gain confidence in all of these things that are now part of his palette, right? The TB12 method, some of the dietary stuff,

working with Tom House, the throwing coach out in California. All that stuff was new at the time, but it was kind of an interesting moment to be around him because for the first time, he was searching. And it took a lot of courage, I think, to break down the entire world that you've built yourself on and try to look for new answers. And that's what he was doing at that point. And I always kind of go back to that moment when I think about him because in retrospect, it was really a key time in his career. And obviously, a year later, they go and they draft Jimmy Garoppolo.

And he ends up winning a Super Bowl that year. And that really ends up bending the curve the other way, where he played better in the last half of his career in New England than he did in the middle. I want to end it here. Because whenever you're trying to write something and you maybe want something to hit home, you have this section of the piece up on ESPN.com where you just were like, hey, I'm going to list the stuff and I'm going to read it for everybody in case they don't read the piece because I just thought it was perfectly executed.

After 19 years of excellence, after nine Super Bowl appearance, six wins, after Mo Lewis in the tuck rule game and the spike in the snow, after throttling the greatest show on turf, after Adam Vinatieri's clutch kicks and the intentional safety on a Monday night against the Denver Broncos, after Deion Branch, after Champ Bailey's interception in 2006, after Troy Brown forced Marlon McCree to fumble, after blowing a 21-3 lead to the Colts, after Spygate, after 16-0 in the helmet catch, and after Matt Castle's 11-5 year again against this is my addition to it an incredibly easy opponent schedule after Mario Manningham the comeback against the Saints on to Cincinnati the Baltimore formation Malcolm Butler deflate gate 28-3 the TB12 method Jimmy G the Philly special D Ford lining up offside after all the glory and fines and suspensions Tom Brady and Bill Pelichek's Patriots were exhausted. It was over. That was just awesome. It was, you got pretty much everything you need. And I'm sure, you know, people could nitpick and say, oh, you left out this little thing.

It's just, it's hard to, it's hard to execute something as basic as a list and make it feel like it's almost kind of the backbone of the whole message. So, great job. Thanks, buddy. Yeah. All right. That's Seth Wickersham. You, great job. Thanks, buddy. Yeah, all right. That's Seth Wickersham. You can check him out at ESPN.com.

Like I said, senior writer. And your Twitter handle is, I believe, just at Seth Wickersham, right? That's it. All right, good enough. All right, man, hang in there. That's the football side of this. I would be remiss if I did not share with you my enjoyment of the Netflix series documentary,

Tiger King. Everybody's talking about it, and they should be. You know how, like, every now and then. Everybody's talking about it and they should be. Yeah. Like every now and then when everybody's talking about something that people just get sort of turned off. That was always my thing with music. You'll always like music more when you're the guy in your group that discovered it first. And then it's almost a little weird if you like it. And then one of your friends outlikes the band. They do this thing where they want to power up to the point where they like the band more than you and then you're almost annoyed like you have some sort of ownership and people do do that with the bands they get really territorial oh well you know picture and nectar is good but

lawn boy is really where it's at you know you're like oh okay, okay. Yep. I got it. So what I would say that, you know, that's when they really started, you know, I looked at early stuff and I've done that. I've been, I've been very guilty of that. And I also think that it's just the way it works. If everybody else is telling you to like something, I almost feel like it's human nature sometimes. And maybe that's just based on our personalities where you just be like, I now resist liking this. The all-timers Van pelt with the wire.

He decided that everybody else liked it so much that he would get annoyed to deny himself watching the greatest show in television history. It's really, it's, it's one of the more like people are X X, you know, times a million. And everyone likes this divided by

pettiness equals self-punishment and denial. I even bought him the first season on iTunes and sent it to him. And I know he's never watched it. Talk about a waste of, of probably, I don't know, at the time, 29 bucks, maybe 22. Things were slowing down a little bit. So anyway, Tiger King, we got our man Joe Exotic, a.k.a. Joe Maldonado, a.k.a. Joe Savage at the end. I forget what his last husband's name is. Yes, he's gay. Yes, he owns a zoo in Oklahoma. Yes, he's a big cat guy. We're talking tigers, lions. We're talking, they did have bears, ligers, which Napoleon Dynamite used to doodle, which I thought was pretty amazing that, you know, ligers, they, yes, they do exist. And he's also a singer, but we found out later on, a lot of

spoiler alerts in here, so sorry, but we found out that he, I know Kyle, you've only watched one episode, right? So I don't want to, I don't want to jam you up too much. All right. So let's, how can I do this without jamming up Kyle? Unless I just go earmuffs. What do you think of the first episode? Let's just, let's just start there. I feel like it's got to just go way deeper. I feel like on the surface, it seems like, wow, this look at these crazy people, but I feel like it's got to go. Like they didn't even really get too much into whatever the plot was. It was like snakes and mailboxes. I'm like, well, this seems like it's only first base.

So I just feel like it's going to get nuts. It does. Every time it gets a little weirder, then it gets even weirder. It's like, how many scoops of weird can I get? And you're like, another scoop of weird? That's how it's just... Since you haven't seen it, I don't know what to tell you. Don't.

You just do it. Bill ruins everything for me with all this stuff. It's fine. Yeah, but I care. don't know what to tell you. Don't you just do it. Bill ruins everything for me when it, you know, with all this stuff is fine. Yeah, but I care. I'm still going to enjoy it. Yeah. Let me just put it this way. Maybe we'll do a wrap up after you've watched it. Cause by the time we tape the pod, well, we'll do one Thursday, but I mean,

you might power through it. I powered through it a lot quicker than I thought, but there's betrayal. There's all these different factors. One guy has a harem of women, which if you're a harem guy, let's just do a real talk thing here.

I think men probably, if you're being honest, kind of love the idea of it. Not all men, but I think a lot of men would say, wait, so I could just have like, you know, I could be married to like, and I don't, I don't know how far I want to go with this, but look, we, we understand what I'm trying to say here. But then when you actually see the guys that are the harem type guys, you're like, so that would

mean like, this guy sucks. So I have to be like this guy sucks so i have to be like this guy i would have to be like this guy to have a neighborhood of of wives like i don't know and i imagine that would just be like i can't even get married now i i can't imagine what what kind of hassle i'd be like oh are you serious like the nets are on dinwiddie just came back from injury i have to watch this i can. Yeah. So there's a harem guy. There's betrayal. There's Vegas dude who shows up on the scene a little bit later. It wasn't shocking that the people that worked on the zoo maybe didn't have a ton of

options going on where it felt like some guys were like, sure, things are so bleak that maybe I'll just move out to your big cat zoo and eat old Walmart meat and maybe even marry somebody in a way that would have your relatives going, huh? So I guess at the end of it, I almost felt bad about myself because in any story, we're always rooting for or against someone. And I don't believe the rules of who do I like in this show because those rules have been broken. But there's still things that are going to come up a lot in different. If you were to say, oh, these are all the different characters. Okay, but who do I like? No one's ever going to watch this show if all the characters are unlikable. I don't really believe in that stuff. And I know that those are the rules and those are the rules, but I don't know that that always has to happen. There's no one that you ever really root for in this show. And it's different because it's a documentary, but if it were a series, it would have been incredible, but now it's too late. Like you can't do the series on it now because no one would have, if you would ever pitch this,

and I hate the cliche of, Oh, if you gave it to Hollywood, they even believe it's like, how many times are people going to use that? Uh this is one of those deals where it just doesn't make any sense. And I kind of found myself low-key rooting for the guy that may have tried to organize a murder than the person that the hit was organized for. And that's weird. So I'm going to leave you with that. You check it out. You'll see what I mean.

And we'll see you on Thursday. Please as always rate review subscribe Brian Russillo podcast on the Ringer Network. Talk to you Thursday. Thank you.