The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Pacers Dominate to Force Game 7! Plus, Full NBA Draft Breakdown With Sam Vecenie and Rutgers Coach Steve Pikiell

Episode Date: June 20, 2025

Russillo starts the show by looking at how the Pacers were able to dominate in Game 6 (1:55). Then, he’s joined by Sam Vecenie to break down Cooper Flagg’s game, share their favorite prospects, and discuss which team has the most trustworthy front office (13:33). Next, Rutgers coach Steve Pikiell comes on to explain what it was like having two lottery picks last season, how Rutgers will build off this, and what to make of Ace Bailey canceling meetings with teams (1:19:12). Check us out on YouTube for exclusive clips, livestreams, and more at https://www.youtube.com/@RyenRussilloPodcast. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Host: Ryen Russillo Guests: Sam Vecenie and Steve Pikiell Producers: Steve Ceruti, Kyle Crichton, Mike Wargon, and Jonathan Frias Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

An extra Friday pod for you. So I hope you're fired up. Thanks to all the people who did all the work on this behind the scenes. Game six, the Pacers dominate. We'll go through it. I want to talk about the turnovers. I want to talk about what the Pacers are doing on defense and get ready for a Sunday game seven. We're talking draft and no one better to do it with

than Sam Vissini of the Athletic. We're going to run through the top picks. We're going to run through some of the lottery rumors. We're going to do some rapid fire stuff, including one player that it seems like all of us kind of love that you may not know anything about. And we'll also talk Ace Bailey and what is going on with his team and the decision making of not working out for any teams or at least that we know of.

And speaking of Ace Bailey, his head coach, a Connecticut guy, played against Woj in middle school, Rutgers head coach, Steve Peichel. We're going to talk about Dylan Harper. We're going to talk Ace, also his UConn roots. And that'll do it for a basketball loaded podcast on a Friday. tip off is just the beginning. Look for the live SGP tab on the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your bet slip. Then sit back and enjoy the game as you track the outcome of your parlay right in the app.

If you don't already have it, download the FanDuel app today to make every moment more. The ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of this episode for additional details. Must be 21 and older in present and select states or 18 plus in present DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 100GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com.

We have a game seven for the first time since 2016. Pacers dominate game six at home after being down 10-2. 8-0 run or on brings a 10 10 running through the scores here They got it to 70 42 In the third quarter So from the first five minutes of game six to just under five minutes in the third quarter That means the Pacers outscored the Thunder 68 to 32 That's hard to do against a team that won 68 games in the regular season And again the greatest point differential that we've seen in this game. So we can talk about turnovers here for OKC, which I want to talk about.

The shooting part of it is also a part of this, this OKC three-point shooting stuff, which has been, I would say on the whole, pretty disappointing for a team that shoots as well as they do throughout the playoffs. But I always talked about like, look how bad they're shooting it based on what the standard would be granted the players are a little bit different. Uh, you could also get into a conversation on who's actually taking those shots. And if you would talk to other teams, like the way they thought if you were going to beat the thunder is load up on SGA and hope the other guys miss, which isn't exactly like the most groundbreaking stuff, there's plenty of teams that'll

do that against the other teams, top players. But I'll admit like when Chet doesn't really wanna take the three, awful check game by the way, you can see that he's a little reluctant. It feels like some of the other roll guys on the road, they're not as comfortable. I tell you that there's times where Dort passes up a better look for a worse look, where he'll get himself in a spot where it's like,

okay, well, he didn't wanna take the shot. Is he gonna going to swing the ball? Is he going to dribble drive and then kick it out to somebody else? I know that you don't want Dort necessarily freelancing with the ball in his hands, but then it seems like he waits and then gets himself in a more of a contested three. So I think there's Dort shot decisions throughout this entire series that I would question even on the Knights where it feels like it's going in. So that was very clear defensively and I'll, I'll tell that story throughout the SGA turnovers, but I don't want to, because even though the Thunder finished at eight of 30 from three, which is actually like a respectable 27%, uh, that's quite an improvement from where they were at at

halftime, but halftime they're down 22. All the energy clearly in that building is just outrageous. Carlisle saying it's a lot as he's ever heard the place, which you would imagine. I mean, they're fighting for their lives and an NBA championship. So the Thunder are it's a lot as he's ever heard the place, which you would imagine. I mean, they're fighting for their lives and an NBA championship. So the Thunder 111 won 4-11 from three at halftime versus nine of 24 for three for

the Pacers. So your minus 24 points on threes at the half and down 22. A turnover story of this one, throwing 12 turnovers at the half for OKC and points off of turnovers they're minus 14 points so I think again they'd had two and the Pacers had 16 points off a turnover so you add up that kind of stuff like you're down 22 you're gonna lose like it's a credit to the thunder that you're even thinking like all right if they get it to 10 the magic will get it to 10 is if it just going to get to 10, solves all your problems. So, okay. See their shooting story throughout the place.

They've had eight playoff games here. Their percentages 20, 26, 24, 27, 31, 32, 19. And then last night, 27% from three there. They were four and three in those games now four and four with the eighth one last night, uh, which is a credit to their defense, which was not nearly as intense as the Pacers defense. So then the 21 turnovers, that's the most I've had in the game in any game regular season playoffs, 104 games now. I saw that note this morning.

SGA had eight turnovers. That's where I really want to focus some of this open here. That's the most he's had in his career. So let's take a look at those. So SGA tries to dribble through two people early in the game and he wasn't, it was like he was, I don't want to say slow or late. There's some other stuff where I felt like he was slow or late or late to realize what was happening defensively, but it just didn't even really make any sense. And maybe because it's SGA and there's

so many times he can do something and get to a spot where you just don't expect it because he's just so smooth and crafty with a dribble and he's got that size and he just figures out a way. So, you know, you don't want to question a guy who wins MVP, but it just like, you're just going to go into those two guys and granted I'm watching it after the fact the next morning knowing the turnover is coming. Number two, stripped by Nemhart. Terrific defensive play. I mean, Nemhart is giving it to him, man.

I mean, the off the ball stuff, anytime SG is coming over to meet, stripped by Nemhart. Terrific defensive play. I mean, Nemhart is giving it to him, man. I mean, the off the ball stuff, anytime SG is coming over to meet the ball. You know, we've talked a lot about, you know, what you're asking your point guard or your number one scoring option to do when you're asking to bring the ball up the entire time, uh, getting them off the ball is really nice because it just makes his life easier throughout the course of a series and an intense game like last night, and then you watch what Nemhart's doing to him off the ball. You can see, okay, see if you're like, maybe we're, we're better off having

him initiating this at the top. So at least he kind of knows where he's going. Um, number three, it was just a, a bad pass. Now something else I noticed with this where SGA and I would say maybe Jay will like they want Siakam. Clearly, Neesmiths like the first choice, but when SGA can get Siakam, he wants to try to get to a switch with him. But if he gets going at him.

There's the size problem with Siakam and his athleticism. But if you notice the second defender who was ever originally assigned SJ, he just stays in the play. Like the way they were helping off the perimeter guys being like, we just don't like this is going to be the game plan. You're going to have to make these shots and SGA is either getting frustrated, not realizing what's happening. I just didn't feel like he saw the court really well for a guy that's just such a special, special player. So I don't know really what I'm, I'd be curious to think of like when they watch

the film of this, if the adjustment is him just being a little bit more aware, because if the Pacers is going to sell out like this against SGA, like, I don't care who you are at five eyes, five sets of eyes are looking at you. That's not really a great recipe for success. Ask Anthony Edwards when he was playing this Thunder team. So the fourth turnover was an offensive foul. The fifth turnover, he gets triple teamed. Obetoppen leaves Caruso in the right corner, three point line, just leaves him, doesn't care. The initial defender still with SGA and then TJ just leaves his guy and just comes down on the

basketball and you're looking at this and it's four people in a telephone booth and three of them for the Pacers and the other guys SGA. The sixth turnover is the one that really pissed me off because I just thought it was such a careless, careless turnover. So on the right side, um, and this is actually kind of fascinating considering this is what Carlisle and the staff are telling these guys to do against SGA. He's got kind of like a mid post, so he's not in the paint. He's extended out, he's not in the field. He's not in the field. He's not in the field. And this is actually kind of fascinating considering this is what Carlisle and the staff are telling these guys to do against SGA.

He's got kind of like a mid post. So he's not in the paint. He's extended out and he's trying to back down. Nemhart. Neesmith has Jalen Williams at the top of the key. Jalen Williams who just scored 40 points in Game 5. Neesmith is helping off of him to double SGA. Dort runs through the lane. Halliburton's defending him. Dort gets to the other side of the paint on the left side. Halliburton just stops in the paint and stays and starts pointing out.

Cause he's just like, Hey, my guy's over there. Siakam who has Caruso never leaves the paint And Caruso's all the way on the other side. He starts in the lower left side three point line and then works himself up to the break and then you have the big who's still hanging at the rim. I think it was Turner. So you watch this play and you're looking at SJ going, okay, you're doubling and they're helping off of Jaylen Williams. Like they're selling out against you, man.

If somebody cuts through the paint, the defensive player trailing him stays to kind of see what you're going to do. And SGA just kind of like carelessly throws this one handed pass. He's trying to get the jay well and has no chance not against the effort that we saw from the Pacers last night, not their intensity. Number seven was just a bad pass to Hartenstein. Number eight, they actually were like, let's get SGA to bring the ball up over the

court. Let's start him back up at the top, regular season SGA stuff. He, of course, is double teamed, but works down the left side. That actually gets a decent pass off to Wallace, but Wallace wasn't ready. And honestly, if Wallace had caught it, I don't know that he was going to finish against Toppin. He probably wasn't going to anyway. Those turnovers speak to, because what I'm not doing here, let me say it one more time, what I'm not doing is calling last night's game like,

ah, they were sloppy and there's some shooting variants. That's not the story. I mean, sure, they didn't hit any shots and yes, there are sloppy turnovers, but this was about the Pacers being far more certain of what they were trying to do and ultimately selling out defensively against SGA on so many of these possessions and then thinking, hey, nobody else is going to make any of these shots or at least that's the gamble and the gamble worked and the effort part of it. I mean, there's just even stretches where I've seen the Pacers lose some of these games. You'll see these five, six minutes stretches where it's like, can it okay, see, grab a defensive rebound?

Like what is going on with this team? So I think that's kind of where we close because we ask it now going, rebound? Like what is going on with this team? So I think that's kind of where we close because we ask it now going, all right, what is going on with this team? I still think OKC is gonna win game seven at home. You know, we can get through some of the history of this stuff. I think it's kind of funny that SGA is high-fiving Pacers fans on the way out, getting your ass kicked like that.

At this point, I think it's the benefit of the doubt thing where depending on if we still had questions about who a player was, you'd be like, man, a little too relaxed for my taste. Remember J. Will after the, I know he's J-Dub, but whatever, after the Denver Law Slave where he's bad, he's sniffing a Gatorade and you're watching that post-game press conference. And I'll admit, probably like a lot of you, you're watching the video being like, are these guys just kind of like a little too casual about all this stuff?

Are these guys just kind of like weird? And when they're a game away from an NBA title, it is, they're so calm. Nothing rattles these guys whatsoever. So I think again, at this point with SGA, seeing him high five guys leaving after this kind of game is probably a good sign. Like he is the same thing all the time.

He's never gonna be really up. He's never gonna be really down. And that's probably really good, especially with a young team, to not be what you would think in most cases, like really rattled and freaking out, being like, we were up three, two, we play like this. And now who knows what can happen in any single game.

You could look back at some of the historical stuff that I think is always like kind of a good thing to remember because we hold these teams that we think are going to win a championship to almost impossible standards. Whereas like we never expect them to have these bad playoff games. I mean, we have this team with OKC, whether you want to pick one of the Denver ones. Probably the better one for them would be Minnesota, but they were up 2-0 in that series. They're up 2-0, they go to Minnesota, they get their asses kicked and it's like, whatever, no problem.

And they win one of my favorite games of this entire postseason, Game 4 at Minnesota, which I just thought was an unbelievable game and a really tough win. So we've already seen them respond after Sunday. It's like, what is going on? But I mean, you can run through all this stuff. Now granted, when Boston wins a title last year, they were up 3-0 when they got destroyed by Dallas in game four. You know, if you look back at what Golden State in back in 22, they lost game three by 16. So I guess you could talk about the score. I mean, this game got to like 30 points. So this is more of an ass kicking than that game was. You know, you could look, I don't think the 16 castle warrior series makes any sense really trying to figure out what we have historically there other than an all time comeback. They lost games one and two combined by 48 points and came back and won that. But they still had some room. Now there's no room. And now the Pacers go to OKC, uh, with a lot of us believing in them and catching up to the belief they've had in themselves.

It's my favorite time of year. And it has been too long. San Bacini, the athletic, I believe the standard when it comes to NBA draft coverage and the amount of work that he puts into this. So we're going to run through as much of it as we can, uh, whether it's the names, whether it's the rumors, whether it's the teams. So, uh, let's get to it. Cooper flag. Honestly, every time I'd watch him, I found something else to fall in love with.

So this feels a little shitty to do it this way. Like, Hey, what could we, is there any part of you as much as we all love him? Is there any part of you, as much as we all love him, is there any part where you go, will he be the number one guy in a really good team, which you're basically like expecting to get you buckets and carry you through playoff wins? Cause that's really what the tier of like the great ones,

that's ultimately what all these guys can do. For sure. I think that's a reasonable question right now because he's a good shooter right now. He's not like an elite shooter right now. He is a reasonable separator with the ball in his hands. Like he's good at taking advantage of mismatches. He's really creative at finding mismatches, I think. And because he plays so hard, he has like kind of a, like a Pascal Siakam kind of vibe to him in some respects where because he plays so hard and is constantly working to establish position and constantly working to play physically in some way, he's just able to get the mismatches that he wants regularly. Like he will keep guys attached to him. And he will,

you know, put himself in strong positions by going to the offensive glass and rebounding and cutting all the time. And, you know, if you think that like a Pascal Siakam can be a number one scoring option, which frankly he is on a, you know, NBA finalist right now, then you should have no concerns. I don't think about Cooper being like a number one scoring option on a really great team. And I think Cooper's ceiling is higher than that, because the level of growth that he has shown over the course of the last, what, like 18, 20 months, something like that as a shooter is pretty drastic. He continues to get better. And everything that you hear about the human being himself is that this kid is just a crazy worker.

Like he was just in Dallas for a, you know, pre-draft workout. Like you get together and everything. And they were just like, Oh wow. Like this kid is like, like you would hear about, you know, guys like Anthony Edwards, where they would come into their pre-draft workouts when they know that they're going number one or number two or whatever. And they don't have to go to many workouts and they're, they're fine. They're in shape. Like they're not maybe not like game ready, but they're in shape. They're doing well, not necessarily doing like a full

pre-draft process. Like the guys below them have to, in order to kind of position themselves best to be drafted. Dallas was like, yeah, this kid can play in an NBA game tomorrow. Like he's just like ready to go right now. Like his prep is he's just elite in that respect. He's always competitive. He's always ready to go. So I think that he's just one of those dudes where you bet on the character, you bet on the competitiveness, you bet on the drive and any issues that you perceive that he has

right now. You think he's going to figure them out. Yeah. Well said. Nothing to add to that. Okay. Why is Dylan Harper the clear number two?

Because the way you tear it out, it's Cooper and his own tier. Dylan's in another tier. And then we'll get through kind of the names that we filter through. However many guys in the lottery first round we get to. Yeah. I really like the idea that you can play both on and off the ball as much as anything, uh, I think he's going to be best on the ball. I think that his ability to get rim pressure is really valuable. I mean, you talked to Steve Michael earlier. I mean, I know that

Rutgers is offense this year was not the most well-spaced offense just because they didn't have many shooters. Right. And Dylan was still able to create five shots at the rim in half court settings per game. I mean, it's kind of crazy. He's just so strong with his gathers and with his footwork and with his creativity. He's extremely polished with the ball in his hands. So that ability to get rim pressure is exceptionally important in the NBA. Like You compare and contrast him with the guy that a lot of people had at number three all year in Ace Bailey. Ace never gets easy shots.

That's the issue with Ace, really. Nothing he does is easy. He does the spectacular really well, to some extent at least, but there's never anything easy. And because he does the spectacular well, the highlight reels and everything just look amazing. But you watch it game in game out for 40 minutes and there are flaws that pop up with Dylan. He creates easier opportunities for himself because he's able to navigate tight quarters really well. He's really good at using his length to extend and finish at

a high level. I also think we didn't get to see the best of him as a passer. If you go watch some USA basketball stuff, you'll find that he can really make passing reads and play as like a real point guard. But then he also drilled 37% of his catch and shoot threes this year too. So it's a great fit in San Antonio. I mean, I would not even entertain moving the pick because if I'm saying Antonio, I'm sitting there thinking I'm probably not gonna be back up here again. I have Victor Wemba Nyama. I have Dearon Fox I can't I can't expect to be able to get an elite elite talent like this in the draft again anytime soon So I'm just taking Dylan Harper and being very happy with this

Okay. Now it gets interesting. How many players do you have in this next group after Harper? four Okay, and give gets interesting. How many players do you have in this next group after Harper? Four. Okay, and give us the order. So I have Con, then Vijay, Con Canepal, Vijay Edgecombe, Trey Johnson, and then Ace Bailey. I think that the consensus league wide right now, if you made me say say from talking to teams,

is probably VJ at three for sure. And then any group of that trio, honestly, some teams are just kind of out on ace and aren't really interested. And it's really easy to say that whenever you don't have a chance to get them. In all likelihood, you can just say that you're out, Right. And that's what it is. But, you know, some teams really like con, some teams are worried about the upside. Some teams really like Trey Johnson and his ability to really work like crazy and run off of screening actions and things like that and shoot it.

Some are worried about his ability to create easy shots on some level. It's really just a mix and match. And then some teams will have fears in this group and some teams will have model watching this group too. Okay. So let's dig through all these players. Cause there's a lot that I like about all of them. And I probably still have ACE behind, can it pull behind BJ behind Trey.

I went to thinking I would like BJ the most because I just thought he had the most motherfucker in him. You know, obviously athleticism. I know there's concerns about positional stuff, but two things jumped out that were alarming. Like whenever I was doing the VJ tape, I was like, man, he seems to miss a lot of these layoffs. You know, and I'm sitting there going, he missed another one.

And then I remember like the first thing I wrote down, I was like, I'd like to see him make a few more. And then I remember like the first thing I wrote down, I was like, like to see him make a few more. And then I went through Synergy and looked at his layups. So it's the non-dunks, the dunks are always nice. But the layups, he's in the 15th percentile on points per shot. And for somebody to be that athletic and that dynamic, you're like, how is he not finishing

at even an average level in college? And so it made me kind of like get down on him. And then when I look at Trey, and I don't know if you'd agree or disagree, I think he makes the most NBA type shots of any prospect. The high-end shot making from Trey at Texas is incredible. But then when you look at his stuff at the rim, he was in like the 28th percentile.

So Vijay was still even worse. And then you circle it back around to Kniepel and you go, okay, fine. Kniepel didn't test really well in some of the agility stuff. He's gonna get labeled like, hey, white guy from Duke and all that stuff. I'll tell you right now,

like Trey, I know what I have to ask him to do. Vijay, I'm not sure what he can do. But Kniepel, I don't care who the other four guys are that he'd be playing with. You can come up with any combination of four basketball players. Canipa would figure out a way to play off of them and then give you something positive. And that's where when I saw your ranking at first, I was like, is he nuts? And I actually think you're right. Thank you.

I know it's funny. Like I think that he definitely suffers from the, you know, he's just like the white Duke kid kind of label, right? And look like, you know, he looks, it was funny. The first time that somebody explained Conn Knipple to me, I forget who he was playing. He was playing maybe like the Kam Scott kid that's at South Carolina, who like committed to a couple of kids. He's like a top 50 player in the country or whatever. And the way that can, it was explained to me was like, yeah, so he's this like white kid from Wisconsin who looks like a bus driver and just gives everyone buckets.

And I was just like, okay, I need to see this kid, right? I need to understand this. Cause he was leading the EYBL or whatever in points. And I was like, okay, let's, let's figure this out. And I watched him and I was like, oh, so he just like really knows how to play. Like he knows how to use his body, knows how to use his frame, knows how to relocate at a super high level, just understand spatially where to move and how to create space for his teammates as well in a really strong way. And then the most impressive part of his season was when Cooper flag goes down in the ACC tournament. And he just immediately steps up and takes over as the number one option. It's like, yeah, look, I can go and score 20 if I want to, but that's not what Duke needs for me. Duke needs for me to be the best number two option

for Cooper flag right now. And that's okay. But I want to show you guys that I can do it. And he goes out and wins ACC tournament MVP. Right. So he kind of just does it all for me. And again, like I do think that the way that he looks like being the white dude that doesn't have the traditional frame of like an NBA player really kind of makes people look at him incorrectly on defense as much as anything. I know you had Shire on earlier this week. I'm sure Shire like spoke incredibly positively of his defense. Right? Yeah. I mean, I got to spend 30 minutes of Shire, but we had a couple of

minutes before we started taping. And I just went, Hey, I, I watched Canipel, but you can't stop. But, you know, pay more attention to flag. If I'm just watching a Duke game, right. And I get to it late and everybody listening understands the way this kind of works for me. And then Malwatch has these moments. You're like, this is nuts. And then Malwatch has these moments where you're

like, this is nuts. And then you've got these guards and, and, you know, Seon's like really impressive sometimes too, physically, and Proctor's got a resume and all this stuff. So like when I really went back was like, I'm only watching Knipple. And I told Shari, I go, I cannot believe a kid

this young has that, as you were saying, the spatial awareness and that, Hey, I'm coming off of a pin down. All right. You know, we're, we're kind of clunky right now. So let me just go back down and set a screen for the screener. And, and some of this stuff is so instinctive that you notice, like, I don't even think he was told to do this. I don't think this was a come off the screen and then a re-screen or the way he'll set up a cut where he's like, Oh wait, they're overplaying me. And even though I'm supposed to come out here and release, like I'm gonna set this guy up and then cut across

and then this gets shut off and then I'm gonna come up here. And then it's like, I mean, automatically, he already feels like a nice option just off a screen on a catch and shoot, which completely eliminates, or I would say ignores the stuff where it's like, if he gets you on the wing and it's the weak side and he isn't that worried about the help,

like he's gonna put that shoulder right into you. And like, look, it's asking a lot of guy a year out of high school, be doing it against NBA players, but he would beast some of these dudes that you could tell, we're like, what the fuck is this guy doing to me? So yeah, I'm with you. The real hardcore like deep dive into him. I don't know

how anybody who like loves basketball wouldn't go, you know, and Shire was just like shaking his head going, you're right. Like the off ball, the cutting. I mean, this is stuff that you usually don't see. Like some NBA players never figured this stuff out and the kid wasn't even a dude and had it. So if we look at Philadelphia three, what do you think makes sense for them? and had it. So if we look at Philadelphia three, what do you think makes sense for them? Look, the thing that makes the most sense for them is to trade down. And to be honest with you, I think they're playing it perfectly to this point because the guy that, and look, maybe they do want to take VJ Edgecombe. Like I absolutely don't want to rule that out at all. I completely think that that makes sense. If you want to take VJ, if you think he's just the top guy.

Darryl Morey tends to love stars. And if you think VJ is the most star equity in the class, take him. Whatever. Right. But I still think the thing that makes the most sense for them is the trade down. And the reason for that is that they are a team that has a lot of needs this off season. And I would argue that really none of these guys are perfect for them in some way, right? They have a ton of guards already between Tyrese Maxey, Jared McCain, likely keeping Quentin Grimes.

Don't know that you necessarily have a ton of room for VJ right now. Right. Ace Bailey is a kid that I'm sure we're going to talk about, like just very immature game. Let's go with Trey Johnson. I think can work just cause he's a spacer. I think Khan can work because he's a spacer. But again, guys that are like six foot five and you probably, if anything, need more of like the ace Bailey sized physicality on your team, you know, more than anything, like six, eight, six foot nine guys who can play with the ball in their hands and do things like that. But if he's not ready, then you're a front office that's in a little bit of trouble right now. After the way last season went, you probably need to take a bit of a jump next year. I don't know how great of an idea ACE is entering that kind of idea, that scheme and everything.

So I think that trading down still makes the most sense. And if I was them, what I would be projecting publicly, given that I think Vijay is the guy that most other teams feel most comfortable with, I would be projecting right now that I like VJ the most and that I would take VJ because I think he's the guy that has the most potential equity in a trade up right now. But I'm not saying they don't like VJ.

I'm just saying that if I was them, that is certainly what I would be projecting publicly because it gives me the most options moving forward. Yeah. And I like what you said there too, because we can all sit here and say like, well, Philly has to trade. You don't have to do anything and you don't have to do anything if you don't like what the other offers are. And you can say, well, they're really guard heavy. So VJ, like how much sense does that make? Well, Ace Bailey wouldn't play for this team next year. Although I think we should throw in the caveat that it's likely that anybody who gets drafted probably is going to get

minutes with this team because one of the guys is going to get hurt. Because that's just what's happened here. But if everybody's healthy, you know, can nipple maybe, you know, maybe VJ probably Trey because of the shooting, but ace Bailey, I just, I can't imagine Nick Nurse being like, let's make sure we get this guy 12 to 15 developmental minutes as we're trying to salvage everybody's job and put together, like if they're a healthy team with the way the East is, they shouldn't think that they can't compete to win this conference or at least go deep in the playoffs despite the playoff resumes of some of the guys on the team. So let's focus on ace because you're right, the highlights, like this is somebody that people were trying to push as maybe the only guy that could challenge

Cooper Flag for the number one pick before this college season got started. So let's start with his game and probably more importantly now, and if you don't know this because last night once it was announced he canceled Friday's visit with Philadelphia, it means he's the only US prospect because some of the European guys are still playing. He's the only US prospect that hasn't visited any team. And teams last night were texting me like, you know what's going on or what's going on here? And I think it has a lot more to do with this representation that it does ace. I think that that's really important to start this conversation first and foremost,

is that everything I've been told about ace Bailey, like the human, right? Is that he's a good kid. He's like a kid, right? He's a teenager. He's 18. Like he's like kind of goofy and like fun and like no everyone on the team like liked Ace Bailey. You know what I mean? It's not,

it's not like there was any sort of like problem there with him. Right. So I think it's just really important to start the conversation with that before we dive into the other pieces of this here. Now, why this is important, why in my opinion it's important that, you know, whether or not he's been anywhere, I think that Ace realistically probably should have gone quite a few different places at the end of the day. He should have gone like basically everywhere from like, you know, two to eight, in my opinion, in order to really find like a landing spot. Because what teams are questionable about with ACE is this, there is like a maturity question, right? There is a focus question, honestly,

that I've gotten from, you know, I think eight to 10 NBA teams, just in terms of like, what is his focus like? And you see it on the court as well. Like he's a player that frankly does not engage defensively nearly enough. When he is engaged defensively, he's incredibly valuable with his length and his athleticism and his ability to cover ground across the court. But a lot of times he's not engaged. He misses help rotations. He misses tags on the weak side roller.

Like he is, whereas Con Canipel does all of that stuff. Like you look at Ace Bailey and you look at Con Canipel, I would guess that 95% of the general public will be like, oh yeah, Ace Bailey is a way better defender than Con Canipel. Canipel was a better defender this year because he was stronger through his chest and had the ability to like, you know, hold the line defensively on drives. And then additionally, he was just always available. He was always there. And yes, he wasn't as disruptive as ace at ace's apex moments of engagement, but you

could rely on him. And that's the biggest thing when you're talking about defense, like you just need guys that you can trust to move on a string and be consistently available for one another. So there's that piece of it. And the reality is, is why that's important is Ace Bailey is choosing to enter the NBA at 18 years old, right? Like that's his decision. It's a totally reasonable, rational decision given that he's going to make $6 million next

year, right? Or whatever it's going to be, maybe 10 if he goes third overall. But at the end of the day, like it presents this concern that given the questions about maturity and focus and everything like that, is he actually on our timeline or am I developing him for another team's timeline? Right. Is it a thing where we're going to get him? We're willing to wait for stars in the NBA. Like we're willing to take as much time as we can in order to let these kids figure it out. But that time,

given the depth of the NBA right now is kind of shrinking. I don't know if you feel that way, but I feel like it's shrinking the amount of time that we give kids to develop. And it's not whether or not he's gonna mature. Like Ace Bailey at 25 is gonna be a totally different human being than he is at 18. And that's the way everybody is.

So every human being is on some level. But can we wait? Can he develop by the time he's 20 or 21? What if it is until he's 25? So we're going to have this kid for seven years and then he's going to be a star. That's kind of a hard sell. Right. So I think the team that drafts A's at the end of the day just needs to be one that has like a really strong locker room, has a group of vets that can kind of like help, help show them the way and everything. And you don't want to have like a ton of stakes in terms of winning and losing games because as he develops, he's going to shoot you out of games. He's going to make bad decisions.

He is not a player that reads the court well offensively right now, but the ceiling is very high. He has a ton of gifts from a balance perspective, from an explosive this perspective, from a shop making perspective. There's just so much there that you can, you can build off of with him, but it's going to take time is the thing. So I kind of think like that. I mean, you, you bounce off of that. Like when I say all of that, like what's your immediate response? Yeah, I don't really have more to add on that. I think it's more of giving some more perspective on what's going on with his representation because it's Omar Cooper, who's Sharif Cooper's father,

who doesn't have a ton of clients. And you hear these things and you're like, all right, maybe is this all gamesmanship? Do they want him to go to Washington? Because you know what, if he goes there, he's gonna get shots immediately. Does he cancel with Philly for all the basketball reasons that we mentioned? Like if everybody's healthy, it's like this guy's never going to play. Does it make sense for him to drop

all the way to Brooklyn? Is it, is it less about the ego of going the highest possible pick to going to the best fit and then thinking about where you are contractually after four years of rookie rookie, um, scale pay. So I, you, you could, you could try to look at this and give them the benefit of the doubt. I would tell you in NBA circles, no one is happy about this and no one's giving them the benefit of the doubt. No, absolutely not. And look, like, I'll just say this too.

Like the feedback that I've gotten from ACE Bailey's like interviews with teams at the combine was not positive. Right? It's not like anybody came away thinking he's a bad kid. I don't think anybody removed him from their board or anything because of a bad interview. Nothing like that remotely. But they felt like he kind of went in not well prepared for them, frankly, which kind of speaks to the representation piece of it.

And even just logically logically with the representation side in regard to canceling the Philadelphia workout, right? So A, there's the fact that like Philadelphia probably put a lot of resources into this, right? Like you can just say no, that you don't want to go work out there at the end of the day. Instead you have Philadelphia set up the travel,

set up the hotel, set up all of the things that they're going to have them do once he gets to the workout. Like it's a lot of man hours. So it's disrespectful in that regard. So obviously NBA teams aren't going to be super happy there, but even just think about it logically, right? If you are Ace Bailey's representation, you're handling this correctly.

You should want to go to Philly and make it so that Philadelphia can leak. They love you. Even if you think Philly is not going to take him, right? And you think that he's off Philly's board for whatever reason, right? You have that information, whatever. If you're his reps, you should go to Philly, burn the house down, make it so that Philly decides, okay, we now have leverage to be able to say, oh, we'll, you know, move this pick.

So somebody has to come up for ACE. And the reason you do that is that the difference between pick number three and pick number six or whatever in terms of salary is like $10 million for your client. So if you can convince a team, Hey, no, you have to go up to number three to get them. Philly is really strongly considering you. It's a home run. Like you get potentially 10 million extra dollars for your client if you can convince them to do that. So even strategically, I think this makes no sense. Like I think that it has been so poorly handled by their rep, by ACEs representation. I think that it has been so poorly handled by Ace's representation. I think

it's reflected, unfortunately, upon him, when in reality, I do think it's them that are the problem here. And when I just look at where this is all settling, I think that Ace is now entering the NBA with kind of a target on his back. Like he's this kid that wants to be able to have his own show from day one. He only wants to, you know, be a star or whatever. Look at the best wings, you know, in the NBA, the guys that you could theoretically compare to ACE Bailey. Jason Tatum came in, played minutes for Boston for sure. Like was a starter, was really good good. Average what like 13 points a game wasn't their main option by any stretch. Kauai Leonard came in, was like a three and D guy, you know, obviously came in as like

a great defender early on for San Antonio, then developed into that superstar. Paul George came in, wasn't super ready to go from the jump. Mostly came off the bench, but had like a real rotation, you know, a spot in his rookie season and then developed into what he is capable of being. Most of the wings that become these superstar wings, they do take time. So the fact that he wants this so quickly, I think also in his representation, representation wants this so quickly also just reflects a misguided misunderstanding of how these players develop as well. Okay.

Let's talk Utah. You know, I've heard whether it's the leftover guards here, right? And then you start thinking about like, all right, well, they've already drafted some guards. And it's like, all right, but like, even if you like some of those guys, I mean, Colin sex is a rotational guy forever. George is, you know, who knows? He's probably going to play in the league a long time, but it's like, if you like DJ, if you like a nipple, if you like

these guys better, you'd probably just go ahead and do it if you can't find some kind of trade partner. But that's where the fears part of this becomes interesting because Jeremiah fears out of Oklahoma, he reclassifies, I would say on the ball, he is as dynamic as anybody in this draft. He had a play I was watching today against Kentucky in the SEC tournament where they threw it out to ahead of him in transition. He catches it somehow on the baseline and is able to stay in bounds, stop his body, then turn back around and make the layup. Even though he's wide out, it's like an absurd wide receiver type play, which tells you we're talking about elite body control, but he is compromised physically. Obviously he does not hit threes.

I was looking at this high school stats. He was 28% this year at Oklahoma. He's 24% in high school, but again, high school stats can be super misleading. So, you know, don't call me on that one. What I'm wondering is if he's in this mix, which I think you would agree he's in this mix in this range based on some of the pre-draft stuff, you have an 18th overall in this class. I do. Okay. Your case. I do. I don't like small guards. It's my case. It's the reality. I think that the standard to be a great small guard in the NBA is so high.

It is so hard. Like you look at the way that Cleveland has built its roster. Cleveland's amazing. They've done an incredible job with Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland. I think Darius is incredible basketball. I think that guy is unbelievably good. His touch is insane.

He has all of these remarkable gifts. I am like, not totally convinced yet that you can win a title with Darius Garland on the court because- A second round would be nice, right? Yeah. Like the defense makes it really hard and they're not structured super well in order to be able to mitigate his defense. But I think that that's part of the issue when you have a small guard like this, like a Trey young in Atlanta and Atlanta obviously made a deep run to the conference finals over the Philadelphia team where Ben Simmons, you know, passed up the layup or whatever. But Trey young, like they've had to specifically go out and find all of these wings, Dyson

Daniels, Zachary Risashay, Jalen Johnson. They're like, you know, probably going to have to go out and get like a super massive center. Like I think they should be trying to make trade up and get common Mala watch using their picks this year. Right. Like they, you box yourself in, in such a significant way, yourself in in such a significant way, whenever your primary player who drives most of your offense is a smaller guy that you're building around. And I think it limits your optionality as you go to build a roster moving forward. And for me with a rebuilding team, like Utah, I've absolutely heard that like he is in the mix for Utah.

I think that would is a thing that could happen, right? They, you know, I'm not saying that he's going to Utah. I'm saying like definitely in the mix, at least you're building a roster essentially around him, like Kyle Filipowski. I don't know how you would rank their like young players, but it's, it's hard. Taylor's my favorite and he's hurt. So, yeah, like it's, I think it's like Taylor, it's it's hard. Taylor's my favorite and he's hurt so yeah like it's I think it's like Taylor it's Filipowski you know Collier was okay down the stretch this year. I think Collier's a backup but I think so too to be honest but that's

another name you can throw in the garbage. I know I didn't really love Cody coming out to be honest with you yeah and a lot of that's just cause he's physically overwhelmed at this point. So, you know, physically he's totally, but he, he felt a bit like, uh, Hey, this shit worked in high school guy. Even when I watched him in Colorado and it was like, yeah, it's not even working here, but you understand. I mean, you understand why somebody like that has taken that high. I guess when you talk about Utah and their desperate need for somebody who's like, does this, does the ceiling on this potential pick

hit the profile of star ability and with fears who is that special with the ball in his hands? Getting past guys. With the ball, yeah. And I actually would argue there's some passing in there even though I think he led the SEC in turnovers. I mean, we're talking about a small guard who led the SEC in turnovers and shot 28% we're talking about a small guard who led the SEC in

turnovers and shot 28% from three. So it's like, what are you guys doing? Um, there's some passing in there that I do think like gets you excited that he's not just a driver who forgets that there's still some options around him. I felt like his passing was really impressive in moments. Like there were flashes, but I felt like a lot of it impressive in moments. Like there were flashes, but I felt like a lot of it wasn't like super anticipatory where like he felt like, okay, I'm going to go here. The help defense is going to come here. Like the, you know, the role man's going to tag my roller, the weak side, you know, low man. And I'm going to be able to shoot

it out to the corner. Right? Like I thought a lot of it was like dump offs. I thought a lot of it was like he'd get in the air and then try to like figure it out on the fly a little bit. And he's capable of that physically because he is so gifted in terms of body control and everything. But I don't know. Like he also shot 44. Like we talked about VJ's finishing, right?

Like he shot 44 and a half percent at the rim and half court settings. VJ was 49 in half court settings at the rim. So like even substantially worse than VJ at the basket this season. So I think he has a mid range game. Like I think he has like a little floater. I think he has the ability to pull up from the mid range, but we're talking about a guy that is among the worst finishers statistically in the class who shot 28% from three, who turns ball over a lot. And I totally get the gifts with the ball in his hand. I think that that's

very real. And I think that you're a hundred percent right. And frankly, I would expect that Jeremiah fears averages 20 points per game. At some point. It's just not a player that I think is wildly valuable in today's NBA. And that's before that's, you know, not before we get to the defense. It's inclusive of the defense where I think he's, he's like maybe the worst defender in the class. Like I actually think that he was consistently over-helping. He would show like moments of high energy, but I didn't think the efforts getting through ball screens were all that consistent defensively. Like he wouldn't give second and third efforts. Like he'd die on the vine and that's really hard to deal with. You basically have to peel switch then. And then you create mismatches.

Like there's kind of just no margin for error on players like this. Like with Casper's Yakashonis, who I have at seven, right. And I think most people would have fears ahead of him. There's a lot of margin for error with him. Like if he doesn't work on the ball because he can't separate, I think he's going to shoot it at a pretty real level. I think that he can drive and make all sorts of passing reads. Cause I think he's a better passer than fears. He's bigger than fears.

So like you can maybe hide him a little bit defensively. There's just more margin for error with him. Whereas with fears, he basically has to hit like the 90th percentile of his outcome or else he's probably a sixth man. But if he hits the 90th percentile He's probably going to make an all-star team Yeah, I mean it is it is, man, when he starts working guys. I saw two try to close them off and blitz them off a screen and he still turns the corner on two guys and you just go, there's just not many people that can do this kind of stuff. But I understand your argument,

your arguments, even if he's pretty good and has this production, we talk about a 30% usage guy his second year in the league and then we're still losing a ton of games. And then what are we doing? We're resigning them because he has all these counting stats. And are we kind of derailing ourselves even if we have a talented guard? I love that you bar up Yakashomas because I'll tell you like, you know, when I first started doing the work, it was kind of funny because Denim, I loved at first, because I was like, man, he's so big and it's his pace and it's like, he almost felt like. Ryan, in November, I thought like real chance that Yeager was gonna like challenge Dylan Harper

for like the number two pick. I was like, this is happening, like we're ready. We're here, we're moving to Russia, we're going to do all the Intel. Let's go. And like, no, it just didn't happen. Not only does he miss, I called his Mrs. Violent Mrs. And he had something where I looked at his guarded, unguarded.

He found a way to take like over 80% of his shots against contested. She like, he found, I don't know that I see that split very often, but 80% of his attempts were guarded versus unguarded. And he just, despite his passing and his size, and there's a smoothness to his game that in short bursts you fall in love with

to your point earlier in the year. And then you're like, why the hell is he getting the switch at the big? And then he's almost like waiting until the big has enough time to come out and contest. Like, oh, he must not want to shoot. Oh, wait, he's going to shoot. And then it's like, I have no idea if that nope. And then somebody may need to check and see if the rim is still level. So whereas I'm watching him and going like, all right, you got to give up. You got to give up. Like, don't tell anybody you like them.

All right. Don't tell anybody you like them. Yaka shown us. Sure. I'd I'd like to see the shot go in a little bit more, but what I love the most about him is we've talked about some of these smaller players finishing their smaller players who I'll see drive and go, ah, that didn't work with him. I'll think, ah, where's this going? And yet he finds a way to kind of throughout the weeds and all the size and all the traffic. I don't want to compare it to Nash, but there's a really advanced way of him realizing

all the extra stuff that he'll need to do to get some of these shots off. And you'll see defenders, it's almost like a quarterback where he's getting defenders to move away from passing lanes with his eyes, or there's a dribble that he'll set up defenders where they jump out to do something else. And it's not some sick, nasty crossover from like a Nike commercial. It's just really simple, efficient reading of

everything that's going on around him. You're on the higher range for that, but there's just a lot to feel good about because of all the different things it looks like he's going to excel with. Yeah, no, I completely agree. Like he made 61.6% of his shots at the rim in half court settings this year. Just about all of those are self-created. Like he's not a great cutter necessarily, but you know, these are exactly what you're saying. Like he'll just manipulate dudes with his eyes constantly. Like he'll make it look like because he is such a good passer, you have to be cognizant

of, okay, like if he's going to move me this way with his eyes, I kind of have to pay attention to that if I'm a help defender, right? Maybe I'm a primary defender, but. I saw help defenders, sorry to interrupt, but like I'd see help defenders on something real simple where it's the big just diving through the paint, and he would get the help defender

to like close out on a wing shooter, and he was like, great, exactly what I wanted. And then it's the guy is wide open, and you're like, how does this keep happening then finally figure it out? Like he's just that good at manipulating stuff. Yeah. No, he really is.

He truly is. Like he made shots of both his right and his left hand around the rim this year. And again, like what makes him special to me is the passing, like just not only the creep, like the super creative ones, right? Where he'll hit like a cross corner kick out with like his left hand off of a live dribble.

And you'll just be like, what the fuck? What, what is this? Right. Like it's the simple ones, the way that he holds a defender in a ball screen so that the big goes with him for one more step. And then he'll just hit the little wrap around with his left to V set for like a pick and pop. It'll create that extra bit of separation for a V set to be able to get the wide open pick and pop, right? It's the simple moves in addition to the like wildly creative highlights that he'll throw

out there too. And I agree with you, I want the shot to fall more, but I mean, another guy that just takes a ton of contested shots because early on in the year, they didn't have anybody who could create by the end of the year, Will Riley, I think was able to take on some of that load and it was pretty valuable. The other thing that you bring up now that I'm thinking about this a little bit more, I'm going to have to ask Illinois staff if they teach this. Cause I think that both Yacushonis and Will Riley, what they do that Dagger Daman doesn't do, right? Is they go direct lines toward the rim, right? Will Riley is 170 pounds or whatever.

He played 175 pounds probably at Illinois this year. He is going directly into a dude's chest every single time. Like there's no, I'm gonna like fade away and like take a little shot with my right hand. Like none of the Jalen Greeny kind of stuff that I think of immediate NBA player that comes to my head when I think of this. He's going in straight lines to the basket, Euro stepping and trying to find the quickest

way to get all the way to the rim. And I think Yacushonis does some of that too. Fears, another guy that like will lean away, Demmon, a guy that'll like lean away from the contact. These guys kind of go into the contact and I'll have to ask if that's something that Illinois like identifies in prospects or if it's like something they're teaching basically now that I think about it. The Will Riley improvement was really nice.

Um, you know, his teammates projected to be a first rounder, highest ranked prospect Illinois since D Brown, number one prospect out of Canada. I didn't like it for long stretches of the season where I was like, I just need to see a little bit more and maybe it's the profile and all these expectations. It was a good team, but it was funny. Cause then I thought like, well, will has to play off all this stuff. Even though he was fourth in minutes, he was first in total field goal attempts. And I was surprised when I saw that I was like, he actually took the

most shots of anybody out there, but his awareness developing into, okay. You know, it looks like the ball is stuck here. Cut, just cut, you know, off ball cutting. It's, it's not that hard if stuck here. Cut, just cut, you know, off ball cutting. It's not that hard if you have the effort to wanna do it. There's a bunch of free points out there waiting for you. And he was great. He was incredible in the second half of that savior game.

Speaking of going into people's chests, you have Danny Wolf, Michigan 14th, maybe the most interesting prospect there is. He's another guy that you could say, I wish the shot went in a little bit more. I just hope whoever drafts him, just lets him run with the second unit, lets him be a seven foot point guard.

He leads the big 10 in rebounding. If he has you at the rim, you're probably dead. The handle is real and he doesn't even have to be that quick not to compare him to Luca, but staying on this contact thing. You know, it's one of the things I think with Anthony Edwards is that he's so dynamic, he can play away to contact.

If he played towards contact, he would be a more efficient player. Luca plays into contact, then controls the defender. I'm not saying Danny Wolff is Luca, but he controls the defender with his body and a handle that doesn't make any, he has one of the weirdest collection of attributes of any player in this class.

And I like them. I just wish the shot went in and the free throw shooting thing is really weird that he's at 59%, but I know he was like 71 at Yale for two years. So that just, that appears to be just a weird year. Just a fascinating frame as well. Like you look at him and you ex you expect like this like stiff white dude who like grew up in the suburbs of Chicago and all that stuff. And it's just like, no, like not even remotely close to that. Like he's pretty athletic and is very fluid and coordinated. I think he has like a really low center of gravity

for a seven footer, or he might be like six 11 or whatever without shoes. But like, I think he has a lower center of gravity for a seven footer. And it allows him to play with like a little bit more bend and kind of get like his pad level lower than the other guy's pad level, you know, use a football term, right? Like the leverage matters in the NBA just as much as it matters in the NFL, maybe not just as much, but certainly, you know, close to as much as it matters in the NFL or in the NFL. And like, I think that his ability to like play with the ball is in part because he's so flexible and can play with bend in that way. So, you know, very creative mindset grew up as a guard. He's like a late growth spark kid, unsurprisingly, you know, grew up as a point guard and you can see it

in the way that he sees the floor, like his passing ability. I mean, what, what are we doing? Like he'll throw some of the most like insane, ridiculous looks that you'll find. He uses his height to his advantage as a passer really well. I think like he just knows that he can see over the top of the defense. He was great throwing like these little duck ins to lad golden this year, another kid that might get drafted a seven footer from Russia. Like they ran a ton of high low stuff with him and golden, like just like showmanship and like he'll throw these crazy tight window passes where you just

can't believe that he saw it. And frankly, he shouldn't have thrown it because they probably only get there 50% of the time, which is why I turned the ball over a ton this year. But yeah, fuck man. Like I love it. Like I think I would rather moderate the creativity than have to teach somebody how to be creative. You know what I mean?

Yeah. He's that unique and it's just really, look, if you're drafting Danny Wolf, then it means you already like all of these things. And so I don't think it's gonna be a situation where it's like, hey, we wanna, we're gonna stick you in the corner. It's like, well, that's a-

Yeah, totally. And I'll say this to Ryan, like he is really shot it well in pre-draft workouts. I'll say that. I got told from one team, like he broke a record in their building for like their three point shooting drill. And like, if you would have told me that coming into the pre-draft process out of like laughed you out of the room. Basically like that seems completely insane to me. But I also talked to a bunch of people that were there in Chicago and they were like, one of the most impressive shooting workouts we saw was Danny Wolf in Chicago. So it's a funky release. It looks weird.

It's like a super left-of-the-line shop where like he brings it across his body kind of, but I think he has clear touch. Like I think there's a lot there and I'm obsessed with like spacing bigs. I think basically they're really hard to find, but all of the teams that are competing at the top of the NBA right now have these five outlooks in some respect. I think it's basically a necessity to at least have a five outlook right now. It doesn't have to be your primary option, but it certainly has to at least be something you can counter to. And Danny Wolf, I think certainly gives you the ability to counter to that five

outlook. I'm gonna ask you one more question about a specific player, then I'm gonna try to go a little quicker with some rapid-fire stuff for you if you're ready. Okay, so I'd mentioned I saw your canipple ranking because somebody else sent it to me and until I get done with whatever I need to do, which never feels like it's enough, I don't wanna look at too much of your stuff. I love how you're like, oh yeah, I haven't done enough. I've been talking to you for two and a half weeks.

You've been grinding tape for two and a half weeks. You're just like, and I'm sure you've been doing a lot before that. You do more for this than most people do, to be clear. Okay, but it's so not even close to how I used to do it because I was on every day. I was anchoring the combine. Like by the time the combine started,

I already had 60, 70, you know, I was on it. And now I'll show up to the combine being like, I have a ton of work to do. Look, it's just the way it is. I appreciate you saying that, but I just know. Literally, literally things that you've brought up to me that like I haven't heard from NBA people throughout the year and I'm like, Oh, that's interesting.

You know what I mean? Like, you're as hard on yourself with this as you've been like throughout the last three weeks that I've been talking to you about it. I'm just like, what are, what are we doing? Ryan? I know. Well, look, you read your guide and you go, I'm not ready. So I looked, well, this is, I saw the Kniepel stuff and then I was like, I

don't want to look at it anymore of this until I've done a little bit more. So I started digging through, I was like, let me just go through a bunch of the later guys. And I turned on a little Sid Koward from Washington State and I'm watching it going, why, like, how come I don't really ever hear about this guy from anybody? I text Sam, I go, hey, do you like Koward?

He's like, yeah, I have him ninth. So I'm like, oh, do you like Howard? You're like, yeah, I have him ninth. So I'm like, Oh, okay. Then this guy, now the competition isn't great. He had the shoulder injury. I think he only played in six games this year. I asked another team about him and they were like, look, he's really good, but it's just kind of hard. He's older.

He's been at three schools because he started what a D two and then D three, D three, D three, then Eastern Washington. I know it's under the six games and there's some kid from Northern Colorado being like, you know, I'm thinking about getting into insurance after having to try to defend him. He is a man and he looks like he can get wherever he needs to go. I I'm so impressed with this guy, probably a little too impressed only because I haven't heard much about him. Yeah.

So like he was, he grew up like in the like Fresno area, right. And didn't have any D1 offers. Went to D3 Willamette and got, you know, plugged in there and played super, super well somehow. He was like all city or whatever in Fresno. Like he was fine, but no D1 offers basically gets recruited to Eastern Washington because David Riley, his coach at Eastern Washington and his coach at Washington state. Cause he got the Washington state job last year. He played in the conference where Willamette is.

So one of the coaches reached out to him and was like, Hey, take a look at this kid. He's really interesting. And Riley was like, yeah, like let's do this. This is amazing. Like this kid's awesome. So that's how he got like found and he goes really good at using watching the first year blows up the second year shoots 57, 38, 90 averaging 15, seven, two assists, two turnovers, like a block and a steal per game. One of the best players in the big sky. You talk to like scouts that were out there that saw like Dylan Jones and guys like that. They were like, yeah, this kid's way better. So I had cowards in the top 35 to start the year. I was like, okay, this is a dude, right? I'm very interested. Dominates the first six games average in 17, seven and four.

He's clearly taken a leap. Uh, two blocks a game, one steal a game, shooting 56, 40, 84 in the first six games dominating, like everything is going in. It's like, all right, you know what? I'm sick of you. I'm going to take you and I'm going to just, I'm going to beat you up. And, and look, I mean, are we getting too carried away based on the competition? Like I watched the Iowa game.

I mean, he didn't have a very good shooting. That's impressive. Right. Right. Yeah. But when it's nice, like it's physical, it's crisp, the way he gets up into a shot, you're like, this guy looks like he's 30. Yeah.

So I went, it's funny. So I came to the U S in April, went to hoop summit, saw wringer employee, Kyle, man there. We recorded a podcast. Shout out. I said, Kyle asked me, you know, who's the guy that you think like is way underrated. I said, like, well, I'll give you two. So Murray Boyles is one. Like he's just polarizing. He's all over the map. Second guy, Cedric Howard. Like I'm telling you, like when people see this kid, they're going to be like, oh, this is definitely a first rounder. There's no way he's going to end up at Duke. And then I went and saw him work out.

And I saw him work out in LA the next week. And I was like, oh, this isn't just going in the first round. He's going definitely in the top 20 at least. So like I called a few teams and I was like, Hey, like maybe, maybe go check out what's going on in LA right now. You know what I mean? Maybe, maybe go see what's happening. And I, it was one of those things where it's just like incredibly obvious. Like he's on a court with, and I love knee Clifford. I think knee Clifford's like a real basketball player. I think he's going to play in the NBA. And it was just like, Oh, this looks totally different. You know what I mean? The it's one of those guys where he's six, five with a seven, two wingspan. You meet him. His shoulders are massive. So like he's skinny. He's like 215

pounds or whatever, but you can see he's going to put on like 20 more pounds or 15 more pounds of like really good weight. And then you watch it all like play out on the court. A lot of the times those guys who are six, five with like crazy long arms, right? They're kind of awkward. They look funky. He has like a lower center of gravity for somebody that has these like long arms, right? Like common mallow watch has really long arms, but has like long limbs to his like a high center of gravity. His legs are really long. It's just harder for those guys to be able to like, can say continuously anchor

their position. Right. Coward is super long with low center of gravity, kind of like Jalen Williams for Oklahoma city. And everything just looks kinetically like, like it's poetry, right? It's all smooth. Like it all comes up. There's no hitches. There's no awkwardness in anything he does. He does everything like in the most efficient number of steps possible. Right. And look, I don't know what the upside is. Like I'm not going to sit here and try to make the case that Cedric Howard is the next Jaylen Williams. I think that Cedric Howard, I think Jalen Williams had way more of a creative handle coming out of Santa Clara. I think that you

could easily see, you know, if this worked, it was going to go really, really well with Jalen Williams. With Cedric, like I think he's probably more of a wing, whereas like J-Dub can play guard and like can really create, like I think he's more of a wing. He is somebody that like uses the threat of his shot really well. Who uses shoulder and like bump you and guys move back. And he'll be able to like, just shoot up over the top of you. Whenever he gets that little bit of separation, he has amazing touch. I think like I completely buy the shot and he is a willing defender. He's not like the most athletic dude in the world, but he cares defensively and he knows where he's supposed to be. He's an awesome kid.

Like I asked him straight up, like, so like, how did you, like what, what happened? Like how did you get lost in the shuffle? Right. Right. And he was just like, honestly, I was not very good when I was in high school, but he was straight up. He's like, I wasn't good enough. And so I went to Willamette and I got better and I worked like crazy and I just continue

to work like crazy. And everyone talks to you says he's a crazy worker like really good kid like all super super positive kid and It's like the easiest sell to me to be like, alright, I'm in like I know that he played six games this year, but Yeah, I'll take I'll take the bet in this class that he's gonna be really good And then just out of nowhere when he's like, I don't know if annoyed is the right way to describe it, but you could see possessions with him, he'd be like, all right, enough of this shit. Yeah.

In like a really aggressive, mature way. And then again, a lot of these guys are overwhelmed against him, but he worked this poor kid in the post. And I think he knew he could have taken a shot like three different times. It was like, no, I'm just gonna put you in the blunder like one more time.

And it's like, oh like also the guy also has like Low-block post moves that he can get into like this is stupid. All right rapid fire Seven eight minutes as we finish up here. Yeah, you know my tastes Who do you think that's a top 20 pick that I've watched that I just can't stand Who do I think you don't like I? would guess that you, I mean, I would guess that you don't really like Ace, to be honest.

That'd probably be the one. Yeah, but at least I understand. You understand it. Yeah. Yeah. I would guess you don't love McNeely and you don't love Essengay. Essengay. Yeah. Like without question. Yeah. Without question.

Now you want to tell me he's the youngest dude and he's six, 10, and he projects his like the small forward, his fascination with falling down every fucking time. Is like NBA ready. And by the way, this is a youth thing. Yeah. And Bundesliga, like they call everything in that league. Yeah. I watched a bunch of games this week.

I would give him this. I don't know who, I had to double check that it wasn't logged wrong because it, the Berlin game, he looked like a completely different guy. His energy was incredible. He was more active. And so then I was like, well, does this mean, cause I went in reverse order. I was like, was this kid just spent? They're still playing by

the way. So he hasn't been able to work out for anyone. I saw him going ninth today to Toronto on ESPN. And I went, look, maybe I'll be wrong because it looks like he can shoot it a little and he's huge. Although his chest has a weird shape that I don't necessarily love, but his although his chest has a weird shape that I don't necessarily love, but his commitment to taking these horseshit shots and then getting the calls that he's already thinking the game that way, to me gets in the way of your development.

It's like you're getting to see the answers and like you've got to know, I'd say you're never gonna get those calls in the NBA, but there's clearly a handful of guys that I can't stand that get all those things. I didn't enjoy it. So great guess. So I think I guessed like half the draft by the way,

but whatever. So 20, 25% from three, 72% from line. I think he has touch, but I think the shot mechanics are like a total rewrite basically super narrow base, like hitchy kind of at the top. I think it's going to take some real time with the shot. A very thin, super high center of gravity. The thing that I, you know, I know you want to go rapid fire here, but the thing I will just note for people that are watching yes

and gay, the German league is not great. Uh, like people, I think look at the German league is like the public at large because it's just far away. They don't watch it. Whatever they look at the Germany and they're like, Oh, I'm sure it's the same as France. I'm sure it's the same as, you know, Spain, whatever. Yeah. The Spanish league among domestic leagues, not Euro league, anything like that. Spanish league is the best of them. I would say, you know, France is a level above Germany for sure. Germany is also like not the most athletic league either, because like, you know, just a lot of the domestic guys in Germany aren't wild athletes necessarily. It's not a bad league.

I'm just saying like, if you look at somebody's like French league numbers, like Rissachet last year, and you look at Essengay, like you probably do need to ding the Essengay numbers a little bit more than what is happening. I, I'm with you. I like, I'm not a massive fan. I get the appeal. I have them like in the top 20 range, but I don't see them as a, you know, is the upside bet that people do.

I get the appeal because of the youth and the size. And I think the numbers, it felt like he shot it better. I don't know what the splits were. It felt like it was going in more. Shot selection is obviously a massive problem, but some of the shot decisions getting into it and you're like, what the hell is this gonna be? And I think it has way more to do.

I'm being really negative here, but it had way more to do with me seeing him go ninth ahead of some of these players, where if I were in the room with the staff going, hey, I get what we're all doing here. We're looking for upside. Speaking of this. All right. You're working for the Bulls. You're working for their front office. Derek Queen is on the board. I'm looking for a new job. Ouch. Would you be arguing for against Derek Queen? For.

All right. I like, I think Derek Queen's just kind of an ass kicker. I think he has like these real athletic traits that like don't get measured by combine testing or whatever. He's super balanced, super coordinated. I don't really know that he's ever going to shoot it. Like I'm actually a little bit worried about that with him, but he's just one of those dudes that like grew up in Baltimore and grew up like playing against dudes that are older than him and just understands how to play five on five basketball. I think it's such an elite like level. I think he's just always going to be productive.

And the bigger thing for the Bulls for me is the one thing I've heard about them is like, look, they're all over the place. Nobody knows what they're going to do at the end of the day in terms of who they're going to pick. But the one consistent thing that I've gotten is they want somebody that fits their style of play that they played last year, right? What the heck did they just absolute pace towards the end? Yeah. Right. Super up tempo, high, high tempo, high pace.

Josh Giddy like spraying guys out for three point shoot like shots and everything like that. I think Queen really fits that. Like I think that his ability to grab and go on the break, like you would have five guys basically on the court that could grab and go on the break, like you would have five guys basically on the court that could grab and go on the break and be able to create in that way. And it would be a good fit for what they're trying to build. We can talk about the efficacy

of what they're trying to build. But I think that given what they're trying to build, if I was in the room, I would say, yes, Derek Queen makes a lot of sense to me there. Which team do you trust right now as a front office the most? You can't say Oklahoma city. Yeah. I mean, that's the answer, but, uh, I mean, it's funny. Like I think Memphis is front office does a really good job.

Like I think that like, Oh man. Yeah. Oklahoma city is the answer, Ryan, but like, I think Houston does a good job, honestly. Like I think they've done like a really good job the last couple of years, man. Absolutely agree. I think Tim Connolly does a really good job in Minnesota. Like Matt Lloyd's a really great evaluator there. Their general manager, you know, Connolly, I think really understands, you know,

windows and understands what voice Oh, it's great. He's a little annoying. I'm just kidding. I've known him a long time, but he doesn't tell me anything good. So I just, I had to say that. He's a great dude. He's a great dude. He's one of my favorites.

But again, he doesn't tell me anything just in case A-Rod's listening. I think Boston does a really good job. Honestly, I'm fascinated to see what they do to get below the second apron now and like try and retool on the fly. I think that Brad Stevens and those guys there just are really creative and how they go about it. That's probably the group right now. Am I missing one?

Like just kind of off the top of my head. I mean, look, there's, there's probably, we could just start naming GMs we like, but you know, you know what though, Indiana, Indiana is like a real answer here. I think, I mean, they've gotten like very few things wrong over the last couple of years and to build the team the way that they have cashing in the sub bonus asset to go get your like superstar and then cashing in draft picks to go get Siakam, who was not really a distressed asset, but not a guy that teams were clearly willing to pay a crazy amount for, given that they got him for the price that they got him. The way that even just this week,

they do the trade for number 23 to get their 2026 pick back. I thought that was really smart. Trey Lockerbie Yeah, Nobody even paid attention to it. Cause I love, then I saw it. I went, that's actually really smart. I mean, I guess you could argue it the other way. Like, Hey, they're going to be even better than the pick is further back, but people like next year's draft better than this draft. So.

Well, to me, it's more that now they have four picks to trade again. Like before they only had three first rounders trade. Now they have four. Like they can really go out and be in the trade marketplace if they want to as well. So they have more flexibility. I think they get all the moves, all the big moves, right? And I think that they do a really good job on the margins.

The draft picks have been so-so outside of Nemhardt, obviously, but even targeting Aaron Neesmith for the Malcolm Brogdon deal, right? With Boston, that was a huge, huge win for them. I like the Mathron pick and Jarus Walker just doesn't even have the minutes to figure out if he's going to be in as high as they took him. Okay. Last things here.

Um, best, what do you think? Give me the rumor. I, you know, I know you can't share everything. Give me the rumor you think makes sense. The draft night. Yeah. The draft night rumor that makes sense. Or you could give us the worst rumor that you've heard,

because those are always entertaining. Yeah, let me. So like Charlotte liking DJ, I think makes the most sense. There's a real sense that Charlotte really likes VJ edge come and wants to potentially end draft night with him if they can. Right. We'll see if Philadelphia takes him. But yeah, I think that that makes a ton of sense. He's like the, he's a super high character kid,

super high effort kid, would be perfect in between LaMelo and Brandon Miller, would be able to play up tempo with LaMelo in transition, would be able to defend and take on really tough assignments away from LaMelo, which God knows what he needs, right? Like I think that that duo in that like trio really along the perimeter makes a lot of sense for them if they're trying to build this thing in the way that they're building it around Lamello right now in theory. But we'll see. I

think that's the one that I really love. Last thing, because I just want to say his name. He's not the most talented. I'm not saying he's going to be the best player, because we know he's probably going in the 20s. But is Nick Clifford the best all around basketball player today? Cooper. All right. Yeah, Cooper. Yeah, I mean, it was that was that was a tease like for a radio show. But I tried. Yeah.

Like, look, I would say it's Cooper. But like, I like Nick, Nick, the thing with Nick that teams worry about is the shock and a translate is he has to like speed it up a little bit and kind of, you know, figure it out. The frame he's like kind of skinny as well. I have him like in the twenties, but I think Nick's really good. I don't disagree with you. The guy that, the thing I wanted to ask you, and maybe that was the answer, right? Is who's the guy that's like outside of the top 20 that you found yourself really liking?

You know, I probably like Liam more than others just because I feel like he played out of position and I just have a hard time Believing that that's who he is as a shooter. I know ASA because he's coming from Montverde You know, there's the high profile with that just bomb squad of dudes. Some teams really don't like him and I understand because offensively other than that left-handed kind of hook push shot like what is there. But I also think that he steps into games and just to me, he's big for a big guy.

He plays big. I actually really appreciated what he did in that Gonzaga game. George is getting their asses handed to him before they're even breaking a sweat and he fought the whole time. So if a team goes, hey, look, this guy's never going to be somebody we're doing anything for offensively. But if he can play with this kind of energy and if he's this kind of competitor, the competitive stuff is a really big deal for me personally, because it just shows me that when things are going to be really hard. And by the way, like I said, they're going to be really hard for you because offensively, like I know you want to take some threes in college. We're never going to let you take that

shot. You're going to have to go in there, rebound and make rebounding difficult for the other team. And maybe it gets a tip backs because he's so young and he was the big recruiting profile. I think some teams are disappointed off of that, but I still would be a little surprised to not see him go in the first round. I think he'll go in the first. Yeah. I mean, look, like I've heard his high is like, well, honestly, so like, you know, I think it's just very wide for him.

I think he brought up the idea of him being polarizing. He is very polarizing. You know, and I'll say too, like, I think Sorber has something. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. He looks like a center who, you know, you can get on his ass a little bit of like,

you know, sometimes we want every one of these guys that's going to be challenging shots in the rim. We all want him to be like peak Clint Capella, which he's certainly not going to be that. But there's some stuff that I noticed with him. I'm like, there's way more body control. Like he had a slip screen in a role where he reverses it against Seton Hall. And I went, okay, like this is, this is something a lot of dudes like him at this size can't do. He saved the ball once where it was all instinctive and he got his feet down like a receiver and then

threw it and saved it. And I know the team wasn't very good, but I know everybody, you know, ideally wants these rim protection stretch fives that shoot all these threes is why Przingus is going to keep getting paid even after this contract. But I liked Sorber probably more than, uh, than other teams, but I, I really enjoyed, like, I just liked watching them, even though there was limitations clearly to who he is offensively right now. Yeah, no, I'm top 15. I'm a Sorber guy.

I believe in it. Good touch around the rim, you know, really good in ball screens can short roll can roll all the way to the rim, can pass it at a high level uses his frame well in defense. I believe in it. Yeah. Sam, where can everybody see all of your tremendous work? Go to the athletic. The draft guide is up there. I'll have a mock draft early next week as well. I also did a thing today as we're recording where I went back and ranked all of my top 20 prospects. I've been doing this for a decade now, Ryan, which is insane to me on some level. So I went back and ranked

the top 20 prospects. I gave the highest grades to of the decade and basically called myself a jackass for like, you know, having Deandre eight and like at number nine on this thing. Like what the fuck was I doing? So that finals run, man, that was really, it was really fun. I had a great time with it. Right. Uh, so go read that and then go to the game three podcasts, uh, over on YouTube, Spotify, you know, wherever you get podcasting platforms, enjoy the next week, man, you deserve a break after it. And I always appreciate this time. It was the last. I am, uh, I am excited to get a break.

I will say that. We'll continue our coverage here at draft week and fired up for a guy with a lot of Connecticut roots. I get some questions on you conforms, the Rutgers head coach, Steve Michael. Thanks for doing this. How are you? I'm terrific. It's good to be on. I appreciate you. Oh, he's good.

The Connecticut guy. Yeah, no, it's cool, man. I want to, I want to get to some of that stuff and remembering you being part of the turnaround in stores. But now as a coach, a big time program here and you have two lottery picks, what's this pre-drive process been for you like? I will tell you, first of all, when you have two lottery picks, they're in college way too short of a time now.

And it felt like they just arrived on campus. And I remember the days that you kind of, Ray Allen stayed three years. I would love these guys two more years. I would be a lot better coach, but it's been exciting. It really has. It's since the day they committed, but too short. I mean, it just went so fast and I think they grew a lot.

They learned a lot, but seven months, like seven months is a quick period of time, but they're on to bigger and better things. And these two guys are young too. They're gonna be terrific. Things that they can do as 18 year olds. I mean, ACE will not turn 19 until August. I mean, just the talent and the work. And then Dylan Harp, who comes from a great basketball

family and is a great kid. And you know, his best basketball's ahead of him too. So where these guys can be in a few years when, you know, his basketball's best basketball is ahead of them too. So where these guys can be in a few years when, um, you know, they get to, they get to those ages and their, and their bodies catch up to them and everything could be special. I know this is probably kind of silly because you're coaching, you're trying to win big 10 games. You're trying to qualify for all the stuff, you know, over the course of 30

games, but how often were there moments where you would see something from one of these two guys where you just wanna look at your assistants going, I can't believe how talented these two kids are. You know, it would be every day in practice, like you would just see something that just, you know, an ace would like drive baseline and wrap his arms, you know, around the backboard

and dunk the ball in like a split second. And you just say, well, you know, regular guys just don't do that. But he kind of made the regular, you know, the impossible look easy. And then Dylan, just kind of a different like could get downhill and finish at the rim left hand. He's left handed, but with his right hand or left hand and avoid shot blockers. Just an unbelievable knack for that. But during the course of the season,

they really didn't, Dylan was hurt for the month of January, high ankle sprain. Ace was hurt early on in the season. For the both of them together, they never really got to play a lot together when they were, you know, in a good place. One was either just coming off an injury or something like that.

So it was kind of choppy in the short season. But they showed signs and if you were at the Indiana game where, you know, Ace Bailey, like the most points ever scored by a freshman, and then they were guarding him with everybody. And I remember talking to Woody after the game. And he's like, oh, my lord have mercy. What was that? He couldn't stop them no matter what. But some signs throughout the year. But they're great kids.

And they're good energy kids. And they were good teammates. And they're going to be really good in the pros. And they're going to be great teammates in the pros. And they went through obstacles. I said that to them. You're not going to probably be drafted by OKC or the teams at the top. Usually the draft picks go to the teams that are going to have to fight through some obstacles

and these kids had to do that this year and I think it'll bode well for the future for them. My favorite part about Dylan is when you watch him, you go, okay, well, it makes sense growing up in a basketball family that he would have all of these tricks downs and just, you know, you think about what this game is. A lot of times it's like, we need a bucket.

All right, we're running a high ball screen here and it's up to you to figure out the best look out of that. And it had to be, you know, I know the frustrations of the season, but it had to be something nice to kind of default to like, I'd like our chances. I like our chances at a good look here with Dylan in control.

You know, it's a great thing as a coach and especially late game, like he had a knack for getting shots off and being able to create and he can create for other people too. But in traffic, he's as good a ball handler, like he didn't lose the ball. And when I'm talking, they would run guys at him from every angle. You know, teams would play him differently and run different players at him.

You know, but but a guy who's comfortable at the end of games, comfortable with the ball in his hands. And really, he would just figure out screen coverage. It was actually easy to watch film with them. You know, they're they're they're blitzing you, they're hard hedging you, they're in drops. And that's all he would need to know. Okay, this is available, that's available.

And he was big enough now to, A, finish at the rim or make plays at the rim for his teammates, you know? So he's got a real knack for it. You know, great DNA. His dad was one of the all-time greats. And I tell you, Ronald, his brother, is with the Detroit Pistons now and is one of the elite scorers. And you're going to see him really take off.

They like him a lot in that organization. And he's a really, really good scorer. He shoots the ball at a high, high level. So just great, great genes in that family. And they got to have a couple more. We need a couple more Harpers here at Rutgers. When I would watch the games and like, look, I know they played a you together a little bit.

I know that Ace was kind of more on Dylan to come to Rutgers, you know, so you almost had an ally there in the recruiting, which definitely helps. We're talking about these guys at this level. And Ace still scores about 17, 18 points a game, but it felt like at times it was still a harder adjustment for him to be off of the ball.

And I don't know if that's something, maybe you agree, maybe you disagree, but when you're this good, when you're this high level of a recruit, I imagine there's moments where you're like, this is a little uncomfortable for me to be waiting on somebody else. Yeah, I mean, I really think, you know, the difference,

you know, Dylan had the ball in his hands. Ace had to learn four positions. So Ace really, when Dylan was out, Ace was bringing the ball up too, you know, and that's what I think is gonna make him, you know, terrific at the NBA level. He'll eventually be a point guard and he can make plays. And I hear some of the criticisms about,

his play that he needed to make for us was score points, which he did at a high, high level. And so he can make passes. He's an elite, get in the lane and create his own shot or pass. He's got tremendous size and length, but he had to just learn more. So his learning curve was different.

And when Dylan missed a month of the season, like Ace had to learn a new position type of deal. And we only play teams once in our league too, Ryan. And I think we have an imbalanced schedule. We have 18 teams in the Big 10. You only play teams once. So the challenges for young players, you know, to watch film and, hey, this is how, you know,

Wisconsin guarded you. And then the next game, the team guarded them completely different. And by the way, we're never playing Wisconsin again, where you could take advantage of the film and how they played you. So, you know, a lot of challenges for these two guys that they managed through and that they learned a lot.

And, you know, I think they got a ton out of their year here. Obviously, you know, we we didn't get to the NCAA tournament. There's 18 teams in our league, only eight go and 10 are pretty good and have pretty good players. So, you know, it's not a product of them not doing what they needed to do. But, you know, the other part of it not a product of them not doing what they needed to do. But, you know, the other part of it's a product of it's the oldest college basketball has ever been. I mean, we played against 26 year olds this year. These two kids were 18. I mean, they're seven years and six years. And, you know, so, you know, that's an adjustment just in itself. You're

playing with guys seven years older, but that'll help them in the pros. That's going to help them a lot next year. So a lot of good things and a lot of positives, but they had to learn a lot. They really did. And everyone played them differently. I know you've probably had to hear it because of the hype of two guys like this coming in. And then you have this kind of season. Is there anything that you look back on? You're like, okay, now it's not, would you have done anything differently? I think it's just the general sense of people that didn't watch any of the games are like, Hey, they had two lottery picks. Like what happened with his team this year? What did you learn from this season? I mean, you learn a lot from, you know, from every

season. First, every team in our league has, you know, really good players. So that's for we at Rutgers got two five stars. We've never had them. So that was a huge deal. I said Oregon gets as five five stars in their program. No one talks about it because they get them every year. You know, like, you know, just because you get, you know, two players doesn't mean everything's going to be great for you. The obstacles are always going gonna come in a great league

You know like this But the only thing I would have changed was was Dylan didn't get hurt in January during the toughest part of our season And you know, we're probably two or three games away from you know, getting an at-large bid So, you know can't change, you know injuries unfortunate and he's as tough as there is You know, can't change injuries, unfortunate, and he's as tough as there is. And I would love for them to have gelled more together, because when one was on, the other wasn't. And when Ace was on a run, as good as any player

in the history of the Big Ten, Dylan was out, and then Dylan came back, and then Ace was out. So never got them on the same, you know, page during the short, you know, season. But I learned a lot. We sold out every game. It was exciting. Every game was nationally televised.

They were on the cover of Sports Illustrated. They did well in school. The community loves them. You know, I get it. We didn't go to the NCAA tournament and I'm as disappointed as any, but 10 other coaches in the Big Ten feel the same way about their teams. And, you know, it's college basketball stuff. You're not guaranteed anything, no matter what players you have.

And to coach these guys, I wouldn't have traded it for the world. And they're great kids, too. That's the most important thing. And they got better. And I think that's what they came here to do. And they're lottery picks. So they did a great job here at Rutgers and now they're going to get rewarded and have long NBA careers.

I was reading about the recruitment of ACE this morning and I was reading how like he went to a game and then he's like, I'm in, it was like, oh, you know, then you're, then he's told, he told the story that he had to call his mom to just make sure she was on board with it because he wasn't getting too caught up in the moment. And there were some really cool stories in there that I was going back and reading and she kind of be like, oh yeah, that's right.

I remember that, or I've forgotten this. But now in this pre-draft process, it was all sorts of headlines last night when Ace and his team had canceled the Philly workout who has the third pick. Can you give us any further insight onto the pre-draft process here from one of your guys? I'm not really involved with any of that stuff

at this point in time. I just know that every team, I mean, we have the credentials and not who, I mean, every team in the NBA saw Rutgers basketball play. I'm gonna give you on the average 17 games and probably 17 practices. So like, you know, I sometimes kind of, you know, laugh a little bit when, you know, teams need to work these guys.

They've seen these guys, they were with them at the McDonald's All-American game for a week. They've seen them play 35 times, like, you know, practice. They know everything about these guys. So, I think they're as talented and as good a players as there are. I don't understand all of it. Now they got to work out. You saw them 35 times.

I wish I got to see guys play 35 times. I have a 32nd time out. I got to make a good decision. So, what's going on in the draft, I really don't know. I do know that whoever passes on these guys are gonna be really good. And I know every GM I've talked to loves both of them. So I don't know why now, I guess,

it's kind of a boring draft, I guess I'm hearing too. So we got to create a little something which may be exciting for people. I want to go back. I want to go back to your early days. Um, do you think playing against Woj in middle school set you up for a life in competition? He intimidated me.

He was a shop blocker, Galora, especially at the rim. Um, but I think that set me up for my days at Yukon. You know what I mean? Like he gave me that good push to get to coach Calhoun and, and to get started motivated. That's how good you gotta be. You gotta be better than Woj. Uh, but he's one of the all time greats.

I will tell you that. He, uh, I, I don't know if he wanted me to ask that or not, but he, he did throw it out there. He was like, just make sure you know that I played against him in middle school. So I was going to share that. I love the, the Yukon story for you because were you recruited by Dom Pernod? I was, I was recruited by Dom Pernod.

And then at the end of that year, you know, he resigned and coach Calhoun came in. So those were the old days too. And I committed to Yukon. I was going to Yukon no matter what. It wasn't like it is today. And I committed to UConn. I was going to UConn no matter what. It wasn't like it is today. And I was happy that I picked it. And then I was blessed to,

I just got off the phone with Coach Calhoun and I can only tell you, I played for him in 90, 91 was my last year. And then I got a chance to coach with him. But we talk all the time. I mean, it's just a blessing to have played for him and saw him build a program and was part of some good teams. And I love my days at the University of Connecticut and love Coach Calhoun and Howie Dickerman, who was a long time coach there. I coached with him at

Central Connecticut and all my teammates and just you know, just, just wonderful memories and that where that program is now. It wasn't like that when we first got there. Jim Calhoun's first year, we weren't talking about national championships. We were just trying to get out of the basement of the big East, which only had nine teams at that time. I think about our league, I tell Coach Calhoun, we have 18 teams, Coach. You had nine back. You had to pass out nine teams. 18 are in our league. 18. Yeah. Crazy how times have changed.

What was it like though, for you to be a Connecticut kid and you know, you said, Hey, I'm going there no matter what. But every time they win a title, which feels like every few years here. Uh, yeah, I probably have done the segment too many times where it's like a reminder of me going to all those civic center games and just watching them get their doors beat. I would go only to root for the other teams and get to see all the NBA players because UConn was just a complete afterthought. Calhoun comes in and completely changes something in a way that's like this team

is at the level, not historically of like Kentucky or North Carolina, but like has them at their level for this long stretch. It continues on with coaches after him. I can't even fathom at your age, you would even understand this ship that he's turning around. But what was it like to be, I mean, you were there at the beginning. I will tell you, I mean, as remarkable a job, like I will tell you, as remarkable a job, I will tell you, UConn's really sexy now. When it comes time to basketball, kids talk about UConn and Ray Allen to the Rip Hamiltons, to the Caron Butler's, to the Ben Gordon's. When I went there, people would ask,

they would stop me in the airport and they would ask, was UConn in Alaska? They would see the husky dog and they would think they'll ask in husky and Yukon's got to be in the Y-U-K-O-N. I got that question more than I got any other question. So that's how far away Yukon was from the national picture that they thought more of the Yukon, Alaska, you know, location than they did, you know, now what they call the basketball capital of the world. You know, and the job that Coach Calhoun did, I mean, there were no facilities at the time.

He actually coached his whole time, no practice facility. He never actually had a practice facility. Three time national championship, you know, chip coach, hall of famer. And same thing with Gino Ariemmo who's done a fantastic job on the women's side. He was there, my first year was his first year. So I saw him build his program empire, you know, on the women's court.

But how far, they weren't talking about draft picks, they weren't talking about national championship. We were just trying to not play in the eight, nine game. Cause the big East tournament, the eight, nine game. Because the Big East tournament, the eight, nine game was the night before. And my freshman year, we played in the eight, nine game. And by my junior year, we were winning the Big East championship.

In senior year, we were playing in sweet 16. So talk about changing a culture and changing a mindset. You can always had great fan base and always had a passionate. But Coach Calhoun came in and just as good a job, and I've been coaching now for 35 years and just amazing what he did. He didn't have great facilities. The Civic Center was nice at the time, but our facility, we had a field house which had a leaky roof.

I mean, when you talk about obstacles, like, wow, did he fight through a bunch of them. And then he just kept winning and pros and, you know, and then they get sexy. But I laugh, we were never, you know, we were blue collar as could be. We were never a sexy pick for anybody. And he had to talk kids into going there and, and promised them nothing and, you

know, told them they'd get better if they come here and we'd win. And he, and he followed his vision and it happened there and it continues to happen. Yeah. I'm sure there's all sorts of anecdotes, but when you're younger and you're impressionable and here's somebody that's still in your life all these years later, is there one thing that you think of as a player or when you were on the staff after you graduated, that you started thinking about yourself as a coach? You were like, this is something that Calhoun believes in that I want to be

able to carry on when I go on, but like, is there one influential thing that you think of the most about that relationship? There, there, there are really two things because, um, coach saw in me a coach and I didn't, I love basketball and I was always around it, but I had other plans. I had done internships in business community and insurance companies and all that. So I was doing that during my career at UConn and then coach said, you need to try coaching.

And from that day forward, I loved it and I've been coaching out for 35 years. And the next best thing to play in was coaching. And I went through every step and every phase. But what I'm amazed of most, now that I've been a head coach for the last 20 years, his ability, he's a true family guy. His wife is the best. He has two sons.

To navigate this job and be an unbelievable family guy and to spend time with your sons and daughters. And like, you know, everyone takes different lessons from them and stories about basketball. Everything pulls me away from my family. Like this, I'm leaving tomorrow to go recruiting. I'm gone Friday, I'm gone Saturday, I'm gone Sunday. Monday we start, we have practice here, you know,

summer access and Tuesday and Wednesday and Thursday. So every time I got to speak at this thing on Thursday, we got to, you know, the draft is coming on Wednesday. So, so like, and this is June and the whole schedule takes you away from your kids. I have four kids and, and coach Calhoun always had like his family like that. His sons were at games.

He would go to his baseball games, his lacrosse games. His son Jimmy played lacrosse. I was always most amazed at that. And so that's what I really, he did both. He was a hall of fame coach, but I think if he's a hall of fame, like husband and father, like in how he did that, I'm still amazed. I say to him all the time, I mean, I don't know how he did that, I'm still amazed.

I say to him all the time, I mean, I don't know how, how you did it, the way you did it, and at that level. So those are the lessons more than anything. And he's as tough a man as he's battled cancer, a hundred, you know, like he, I mean, he'll fight anybody. He'll fight the referees, he'll fight the business office. So I mean, like if he feels like he needs something, you know, a true fighter, you know, Boston fighter,

and just an awesome guy. And to this day, he calls him, Steve, you got that referee, Steve, you got, like he's the best. He wants to fight my fights too, with me, which I like, I probably gotta bring him in and sit him behind a bench. I remember I went to the old field house for a game and I think they were playing

Eastern or something and it was just like an early, Hey, let's, let's get a sweat. But it was a real game. And I forget the story like word for word, but there was kind of an understanding is like, we take this game, like take it easy on us. And I think Jim was up 40 screaming at everybody. And then on the Easter. Screaming at me. You probably saw that probably turned it over.

But he coached until the end and he didn't care about, not that he didn't care about the opponent. He was always worried about his team. He had a great saying. He told me this bunch of times, Steve, you can only coach one team. Don't worry about the other team. Like that's that guy's job.

You know, don't, don't coach two teams, just coach your own team and do the best you can and, and if we're up 40 or down 40, coach your own team. So do you think that with the attention that Rutgers got, do you think with this season, which, you think with this season, which it's hard to feel great about it after the year's done, the record and all that kind of thing, but do you think, Coach, there's an element of like, we're on the map now, we're in conversations

with players at another level. Do you think that this season can be looked back on as something that helped you change the course of Rutgers basketball? I mean, 100%, and you got it right too, this is the most difficult time in college sports, not just basketball. I mean, when you add on that dollar figure with,

it's not even like, it's nothing like it was five years ago. To get two players like that, with the restrictions that we have, we haven't been at the cutting edge of NIL. So we got two kids to come here because they believed in us and they believed Rutgers 15th ranked public university in the country. They believe they'd have a home for life, which they do.

They're here working out, Dylan's downstairs as we speak. You know, Ace will be back in a few weeks. We got the 30th ranked recruiting class for next year. And if you don't think that every one of those kids asked about Ace and Dylan, and you know, yeah, you can come here, you could be a first rounder, you could be a lottery pick. You know, you don't have to go to, you know,

that sexy school, like, you know, Ace and Dylan were confident in their own games. And, you know, like, it wasn't about what school or what uniform they were. It was, I'm really good. And I played against every 17, 18, 19-year-olds in every event. I'm really good. Dylan Harper was MVP of the McDonald's game. He went to the Jordan brand game.

He was MVP. All of the best players. You know, Ace was, you know, one of the best players in the country in all those games. So, you know, they were very confident and they want to come to a good school, have a place for life. And, and, and, and they did that. We sold out every game, ton of excitement. We didn't win as many games as we'd like, but I think every coach in the country, except for the national championship team, what's it say? Probably say the same thing.

Um, and that's kind of college basketball, but what they've done and helped us do. And we're going to have another good recruiting class and trust me on this, you know, um, having those two guys here for the next, you know, rest of their careers and they're going to have long NBA careers, they'll be saying Rutgers when, when they're introduced in the starting lineup, and that's a great thing. Well, this is really cool, man, because of your background and the whole thing,

whether it's my pickup games at St. Paul's or when I was in Bristol, or the, actually the St. Joe's pickup games were much nastier because Donnie Marshall used to bring me, and then he brought Jerome Dyson once, which didn't go over well at all, because we weren't members, but all your Yukon ties, they let us go play there.

And those games were actually nastier than any of the other games I played in, because the age disparity. And there was also people that paid, and they knew that we were kind of like being done favors. And then when Dyson showed up that day, these older guys are like, what the fuck's wrong with you guys?

They get mad when you load those all suckers with a Donnie Marshall. I hosted him on his visit out of Seattle, out of Washington. And the funny part is now you fast forwarded 25 years, Donnie's one of the great UConn players, and now he does TV and great at what he does. We signed a great player out of Seattle who knew his name. And, and Caden power is going to be really good for me, a shooter. And you know, it's funny how it all comes back full circle to good people.

I bet good people at Yukon, good people here, good people in Bristol, even though they call a lot of files in those games, you know, especially some of those older guys that we would play against. But, uh, you know, the YukConn family always continues to help me, even though I'm at Rutgers now, they follow and they do unbelievable things, but it all started there in Connecticut. Last thing, I know you're working with Dick's Sporting Goods

and the Game Changer app, which is focusing on youth sports. So tell us a little bit more about that. It's an unbelievable app, first of all, you know, film. I say what's the most undervalued tool in youth basketball is film prep. You know, people get on the court, they do workouts. You can now watch film from home with people that are experts in it.

That's what we do at the college level. This app allows you to watch your kids' games on the road, watch film later on, take stats from it. It's an unbelievable app. And film watching is the most undervalued and valuable tool that you could use in your development. And I did it with my son. He's playing college basketball now

and I highly recommend it. And everyone does workouts, work your mind out when your legs are tired, your mind isn't tired and you can continue to be a really good basketball player. And you can clip up highlights and send them off to colleges and do all this other stuff, you know, technology nowadays amazing. And this is a big part of that. So take a look at it. Absolutely. Hey, enjoy next week. It's a big part of that. So take a look at it. Absolutely. Hey, enjoy next week.

It's a big moment for you. It's a big moment for Rutgers and we're only days away from the draft. Thanks, Coach. Thanks. I'd love to come back on after the draft. It'd be great. Thanks, Ryan. Done. Let's have you next season. Thanks, Jason. Thanks. Thanks for checking out a Friday pod here. And we'll be back Tuesday, Thursday next week. So game seven, Bill and I will be live.

And then Tuesday, you know, we'll probably be doing some draft, some off season stuff. Maybe we'll have a big trade by then. And then on Thursday, we'll recap the first round of the NBA draft. Thanks for listening to Ryan Russell podcast, Ringer Spotify. They were going to name me Michael Jordan. My dad was like, I don't think he can live up to it. So they named me Michael Jordan. My dad was like, I don't think he can live up to it. So they named me Michael Jared. Must be 21 and older and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas

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