The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Richard Jefferson Tells Jason Kidd Stories, Nikola Vucevic Talks Adversity, and Ryen Tries to Understand Draymond’s Unsolvable Question

Episode Date: February 17, 2021

Russillo shares his thoughts on Draymond Green’s comments about the double standard of teams and players (1:30), before talking with NBA champion and analyst Richard Jefferson about his time with the New Jersey Nets, a ton of Jason Kidd stories, the relationships between players and teams, trades, and more (14:00). Then Ryen talks with Orlando Magic center Nikola Vucevic about coming to the U.S. to finish high school, his basketball journey at USC, transitioning to the NBA, battling adversity this season, dealing with trade rumors, and more (58:30). Finally, Ryen answers some listener-submitted Life Advice questions (1:23:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

today's podcast is incredible it's a ton of basketball i'm going to talk about draymond's comments a little bit off the top and then we're going to ask richard jefferson about those comments and also about the nets the big comeback the season his nets jason kidd stories kenyan martin The Big Comeback, The Season, His Nets, Jason Kidd Stories, Kenyon Martin, and Vooch. That's right, the big guy in Orlando. Nikola Voochavich is going to join us to talk about his career and what's next for him and the magic and some life advice. I want to touch on the Draymond Green comments here at the top. Hopefully, I'm not going to spend a ton of time on this.

You never know with me, right? We're going to ask Richard Jefferson about it, too, because better perspective, considering this is more about him. Right. This is about players, NBA players. And it's really about athletes. And, you know, Draymond's comments, which we'll get to here in a second, we'll just give you a short clip of it. Essentially, it's it's the disappointment in how things are handled because of whether it's a player asking for a trade, which I think all trade demands are not created equal. I think there are some that we are sympathetic to others that we are frustrated, infuriated by, depending on who you're rooting for.

And yet there's also this other example of a situation like Blake Griffin and Andre Drummond being sat, and apparently Draymond felt like there wasn't enough criticism for the team. So here's Draymond. Watch Andre Drummond before the game sit on the sideline, then go to the back and then come out in street clothes because a team is going to trade him. It's bullshit. Because when James Harden asked for a trade and essentially dogged it, I don't think there was no surprise or no, you know, there's no one's going to fight back that James was dogging his last days in Houston but he was castrated for wanting to go to a different team and everybody

destroyed that man and yet a team can come out and say oh we want to trade a guy and then that guy is to go sit and if he doesn't stay professional then he's a cancer and he's not good in someone's locker room and he's the issue so i can get into some of the particulars of the comment and what i can't help but get past though is is that i think what we're asking for at least what nba players are asking for i think a lot of us are asking for, at least what NBA players are asking for, and I think a lot of us are asking for in general, is there a better way to be disappointed? Think about that. Have you ever dealt with someone where things didn't work out, a business deal, a relationship, your job, where you get canned? Not the ending I was hoping for, but love the way it was handled. I don't think there is.

I don't think there is a better way to be disappointed. And I'm all for it. I'm all for trying to figure out ways to be let down less. I don't know necessarily if this is the double standard. The Draymond use of Andre Drummond doesn't really make a ton of sense to me because I don't think Andre Drummond wants to play right now. doesn't really make a ton of sense to me because I don't think Andre Drummond wants to play right now. Blake Griffin, I'm sure the agent and the player were all on the same page with the Pistons of being like, hey, we're going to go ahead and sit you down. And unless there's some massive restructuring of how sports work, where the contracts are different or everybody's a free

agent after every year, which I've actually always thought was kind of funny if you took the NBA and just redraft the entire league every single year. But then we find things to complain about that because we're really good at complaining. We're all great at complaining about our jobs. Some of us don't. Congrats to you. Most of us do. And when it plays out publicly, it's much harder, I think, for fans to deal with. Because I'm sure some of the people listen to Draymond talk, they're like, whatever, you guys get millions and millions. And part of that is right. And part of it at times, I too will say, hey, this is what you signed up for.

The job is that you make this money, that you are this special person, you get all these accolades, but the downside of your amazing life is that at some point, your team can decide to move on from you. And now we've seen more and more that the teams are being told by the players

that we're ready to move on from you. I think we've seen more and more that the teams are being told by the players that we're ready to move on from you. I think the Deshaun Watson one is fascinating that everybody is on Deshaun Watson's side. Yes, I've seen tons of social media reacting to Brett Favre's comments. I went on with Cowherd and talked about this the other day.

We were like, yeah, Dick Vermeule said some stuff and Favre said some stuff, which is actually pretty laughable considering the whole reason Favre ended up being out of Green Bay and going to Minnesota because he was super mad at Green Bay.

It's because Green Bay got sick of him retiring like four years in a row. At the end of the year, he would be like, yeah, I'm not sure what I want to do. They had Aaron Rodgers. That's why they drafted him because they were like, Favre keeps pulling this. And now Favre is going to criticize Deshaun Watson. But here's what we've learned in the Deshaun Watson deal. Almost everybody is on his side. Has anybody said, hey, the Texans, I'm team Texans here.

Have you seen any of that from any media members? I haven't seen it from anyone. So we can act like Deshaun is being criticized and I'm sure he's getting it from Texans fans and people that are just the worst that make fun of high school kids that are recruits that don't pick their school. Okay. Cause those are like the lowest levels of people we have with internet connections. But what I'm, what I'm, I guess, encouraged by and fascinating isn't even the right word. I'm encouraged by the fact that Deshaun Watson for anybody paying attention to his story with the Houston Texans is actually on his side a little bit more. Um, the hardened thing was tougher. It was tougher. So if hardened is going to mail it in

the beginning of the year and do all the stuff leading up to it and then be like, now that I'm playing and I don't even want to be here, is somebody supposed to say, hey, you know what? There's a double standard here,

so I'm not going to criticize Harden. A lot of the cases are individual. Now, again, is it about communication? I guess it is. Is there a better way to tell a guy he could be traded? I mean, how could you do that if you were a GM? Hey, I could trade you every single day, but I want to keep you in the loop so you're not surprised. That's not going to work. And a lot of times it isn't even the team. I can tell specifically, like when a player is traded,

I'll see on social media, Woj will have it, Shams will have it. Usually you can tell like, is the agent like one of the reporters better than the other? You know, Woj is the king of this stuff, but you'll see two of the top newsbreakers in basketball have the same trade within a minute and people will keep track of like who actually had it first. And then you'll feel bad for kind of like the secondary newsbreakers where it's clearly already a done deal. And they'll be like, CBS Sports has confirmed that. Like, did they? Did you confirm it with a source or did you just see?

And I don't mean to say that about CBS, but I'm just using that example, right? We see that stuff all the time. So some of the news comes out in an inconvenient way because the agent wants to make sure they have a great relationship with somebody that is a big voice on the news side of their league. great relationship with somebody that is a big voice on the news side of their league. The NFL has been on a run now where I think we're out of a ton of the safety concern that we had a few years ago. I don't know if there was a better way to sign up to ram into other people for three hours a day. I don't know if there is a safer way to do it. I guess the helmets can be better. It's nice that the NFL has at least acknowledged some of the bullshit they pulled in the years past and not doing enough to protect their own players.

I don't think anybody should argue against that. But now here we are. And if you're going to complain about the physical nature of football as a player and not liking that part of your employment, well, I mean, what did you expect? And it really speaks to any of the leagues where you're playing for a team where they can trade you. You can't be surprised by this, but you can be disappointed. Baseball has been a complain fest for two plus years. I can't figure that sport out. But the other part of this that I think is important is that when you're this special at doing what you do, you want to be treated a certain way. The top NBA players are rock stars, and maybe that's the problem. Could you ever see Drake being responsible for

the direction of a team? I don't know if there's a team Drake, Kyle, so you can help me with that one. But at no point can Drake be traded. I guess he could have problems with the record studio and people early on that are musicians that are really successful could say, I'm getting screwed over in this deal and I have to tour all the time. And then they have my masters and this isn't great. I'm not out of my contract. You can find a way to complain about any job that you have. Um, it's pretty easy to do, but when you're this special, as far as an athlete's concerned, but then you still have to adhere to kind of the concept of team and that your contract really belongs to somebody else. And you can be moved at any other time. That's probably frustrating because anybody else as special as you, maybe they don't have to deal

with that stuff. But again, that's the job that you signed up for. I know personally, I can speak to this and I've touched on it a little bit, but the ESPN layoffs, it sucks, man, but it's also part of corporate America. I'm not pro layoffs. I just understand that they're going to happen. And as somebody who dealt with it pretty seriously, the last time he was at ESPN, we're going back to like 17. So it was almost four years ago. I lost my neighbor and best friend. I lost another one of my best friends. I lost a ton of friends and I also lost my co-host. And the weird thing was, is I was supposed to be supposedly gone for six weeks. And here was someone at ESPN trying to do me a solid by keeping me in the loop going,

Hey, like I met with the head of the company to talk about other opportunities. And we talked about layoffs for an hour and I left the meeting going, Holy shit. That was the president of the company basically giving me a heads up that they're going to let me go. And so then I went to somebody else, I go, hey, that meeting didn't exactly go the way I thought it was going to go. And they're like, yeah, that's actually kind of like a clue. I was like, so I'm out of here? I was like, what? And then I was just like, all right, fine. Seriously? If I'm out of here, then I'm out of here, I guess. I'm going to show up. I'm going

to do my job every day because I care. And I'd shop for houses during commercial breaks. And I'd sit next to Danny Connell. And he'd be like, oh, what are you looking at today? And then a week would go by. He's like, you're hearing anything different? I'm like, no. So for five plus weeks, it went by.

And it wasn't a ton of fun. And yet the organization thought they were doing me a favor by keeping me in the loop. And then Monday, I was gone. Tuesday, I was in. And when all the news broke, I was in a hotel in Los Angeles, waking up to a call on the East coast at 6 a.m. Pacific time being like, Hey, just double check. You know, you're good. Right. And I was like, yeah, I guess I'm good, but I'm in LA looking at a house and maybe a job. And they're like, come back. And they're like, you never were gone. I'm like, I don't know who to believe anymore. And they're like, oh, one last thing, Cannell's out.

Could there have been a better way to execute that plan? Sure, but I also, this isn't even bitter. It's just me going, hey, I think they are actually trying to do me a bit of a favor. And then things turned around and they weren't gonna, they weren't gonna sit there and talk with me about Danny. I didn't know about Danny being out, but they weren't going to do it

because that's not the way they handle it. And as corporate as ESPN is, the NBA can be the exact same way. It just happens to be all the employees play on television in front of us. So whenever we're trying to figure out a better way to do this, a better way for leagues to handle their business, because the trade things are never going to go away. I don't know if they'd ever pass anything in the CBA because the CBA is basically agreed upon by the 1% of the players. And I know that sounds like a joke, but the stars dictate how the CBA is going to play out in the NBA. You'd think you could get 200, 300 middle class guys as far as middle class standards

are concerned in the NBA to be able to vote on something differently. Just be like, maybe you can prevent player movement at some point. I would worry about not us, the hardcore basketball fans, me hosting and you listening to this podcast. We're not turning the channel, but I worry about the secondary fan, which is always what the goal of all these leagues are, to drag them in. Grab the tertiary fan. Get them to pay more attention. That's how you grow any of these games and grow the product. Will they ever be turned off? I don't know if you could ever fix any of that stuff,

but ultimately it always gets back to what happens in life. I think we're all asking for a better way to be disappointed by news, and I don't know that that's ever going to be realistic. Richard Jefferson joins us.

I'm fired up for this. Sort of neighbors, even. And Richard may not know this about him, but one of the first times I realized, like, maybe I can get into sports is because I was so excited about you as a draft pick. I was like, why are people not more on him? And I was right.

I was right about you. I don't know why it was kind of like, it was a weird draft that year. People just down on you, man. It was, you know what it was? There was a bunch of high school players that all came out.

So four high school guys come out. It was Sagana Yop. It was Tyson Chandler, Kwame Brown, Eddie Curry, and all of those guys, you know, dropped me out of the top 10.

I should have been a drop top 10 draft pick, but then they draft these high school kids and look, some of them panned dropped me out of the top 10. I should have been a top 10 draft pick, but then they draft these high school kids. And look, some of them panned out, some of them didn't. But I remember Rick Carlisle because I had Rick Carlisle as my coach in Dallas, but he was in Detroit and they drafted Rodney White over me. And we were kind of talking, I was in year 15. He was like, yeah, we didn't think you were going to be that good. And I was like, where's Rodney White at? No disrespect, Rodney. No disrespect. That's my guy.

Nice kid. But yeah, no. So a lot of people were either like liked me or didn't like me, but whatever. I survived. You did. And I think the funny part about it too, was that when people are wrong about someone and hell I've been guilty of this, we all are at some times it sometimes it's like well it's just because he's playing with jason kidd and it was like look that's that's great that you got to play with jason kidd that early but the other years

after that had nothing to do with jason kidd yeah and look jason kidd i i still credit like my house in hermosa beach is thank you jason kidd right i i give him all the credit but it's just like anything like you can lead a horse to water. Jason Kidd had a ton of great teammates, ton of all-star teammates, but you also had to produce like those, those, those passes don't, don't dunk themselves. Like you still got to get out in the lanes. You still got to play deep, but you have to earn a guy like Jason Kidd's respect. And that was, you know, one of my favorite parts of playing with them is that, you know, by the time we were done, like, you know, he was, you know, talking to me and looking

at me like, Hey, this is what you need to do. This is how you take your game to the next level. And, you know, you know, he took me under his wing and, and I didn't let him down. What was it? I always want to know what, what this felt like, but there had to be moments. You're like, I can't believe he saw that. Or did he, was he ever able to explain to you what he saw, how he saw the game and really one of the most unique ways of any player I've ever seen? No, like I grew up in Phoenix. That was the thing. The first time I actually met Channing Fry, he was 14, I was 17 and Jason Kidd was doing like a little basketball camp. So, you know, just kind of like having guys around, like little kids around like for the basketball camp.

And so like, I grew up in Phoenix. Like I remember when he got traded to Phoenix for Michael Finley. Now, Michael Finley was an all rookie player. Obviously Mike Finley stud player for 15 years, but Michael Finley got traded. And I remember people being upset and I was like, do you guys know who Jason Kidd is? Like I was a basketball junkie as a kid. I'm like, this guy is like magic Johnson. Like he's that good, like that, that type of player.

And so I'll never forget when, you know, watching him play in Phoenix and I was at Arizona and they kind of knew, he knew about us because we were playing the national championship game, just locally you have where. So when he got traded on draft day, right after I did, like my head almost exploded. I kid you not. My head almost exploded when Byron Scott calls me and he was like, Hey, we're so excited to have you. And I was like, the fuck is in New Jersey? Right. I was just like, God, like I had the worst workout for them. I

didn't care. I didn't know about its proximity to New York. I just knew that they were a dog shit team. And so like we won like 25 games my last year in college, the Nets won like 26 games. And I was like, this is dog shit. And he, kid you not, Byron Scott always tells the story. He was like, you know, Richard, I feel like we got some things that are going to make you excited. Cause he could hear in my voice. Cause I got drafted by Houston, then traded to Jersey. And I was like, to Jersey? What is it in New Jersey? I'm a Phoenix kid. I'm a West Coast kid. Literally the next day I'm on the highway. I'm in Phoenix. And they're like, the Phoenix Suns, a blockbuster trade, Stephon Marbury, coming to Phoenix, Jason Kidd going to Jersey. And I was like, Oh my God, I get to play with Jason fucking kid. I was like,

Oh, this is on. I was like, you guys might not know this, but this is on. And he showed up. I think he was fresh off of the Olympics. I feel like, and he showed up, just had his twins. And from day one, it was just like, we were shot out of the cannon. Now it wasn't just, it was Jason kid. It was Carrie kiddles. It was Kenyon Martin, but like, he is so good. So special. What Jason kid is able to do. We still haven't seen a Jason kid like Steve Nash with his ability to pass, you know, LeBron James with, with his ability to pass Luca, but like, there was magic Johnson. And then there was Jason kid.

Like as far as I'm concerned, like guys that just saw the game in a different way, especially with the highlight passes. Braun has them, and Luka has them, and Steve Nash had them, but Jason Kidd was still just a smidge different with his ability to do it. The only person I could really compare him to was Magic. I completely agree with that because I even see passes now where we'll think, oh, wow, that was great. You know, like with some of the, some of the stuff

that was happening with LeBron, where he was reading the help off the corners, that doesn't even happen anymore. You know, where he would set you up on one side and know that everybody was going to kind of shift over. And the whole time he knew he was going to the other corner that at the time was almost thought of as like, man, he everything he's a step ahead you're like i don't know you see the help a million times the same way like you can kind of figure out what the path kid was that's none of that stuff applies to him there was no predetermined like oh i already it was no i've just i see an angle that nobody else sees and he can get the ball there he can get the ball there. He can get the ball and spin it. And this, and it's like, I try to tell people, I'm like, yo, we play, I played 500 games with them

and seven times a night, maybe two or three to me, two or three to other people. You would just be like, yo, like, I know it will become commonplace, but you were just like, dude, like that's unheard of. On top of the fact that Magic Johnson was six foot nine. LeBron James is six foot eight and a half. Like fucking Jason Kidd is six foot four. Couldn't really shoot at the time. I know he turned into like a. Yeah, at the end.

But you're right. Yeah. But like you're talking about like when and I got Jason Kidd at 28. Right. So I got like prime, prime, prime Jason Kidd shot out of of the cannon had to slow down because he used to move too fast and it was just like dude like and he was a legend but like jason kidd to this day like i'm like guys you don't see it google's your friend people just google jason kidd highlights and whatever you see understand that there was like he led the league in a sense i'll never forget i'll tell you the story um we were with the USA team and Tracy McGrady, Jason kid did something through the ball

backwards, somewhere crazy out of bounds. Right. And then like two plays later, now I'm talking about for anybody else, it would be a God awful turnover. Like if I ever even attempted said pass, I didn't care who was my coach, how many points I was averaging. I was probably going to get a talking to her, taking out the game. Like don I ever even attempted said pass, I didn't care who was my coach, how many points I was averaging. I was probably going to get a talking to her, taking out the game. Like don't ever do that again. Jason kid did one of these passes in USA basketball. And then like three threw it out of bounds. Third row, nobody was looking three plays later, does it again? And Tracy McGrady sitting there, he's like, like, how, like how, how does he pass like this? And it hit me. And I was like, trace, do you know how you shoot the ball where like, you can miss eight shots in a row

and you're going to come down and fire that ninth one without even thinking. I was like, that's how Jason passes the ball. Doesn't matter. He could throw three turnovers in a row. The next ball is going off the backboard or around his back or between his legs, or it's going to be a no look. Cause that's just who he is. And I still to this day, again, you never have a duplicate. But like you saw Magic Johnson and then you saw Jason Kidd. But we have it. I'll even give I even get Jason Williams little white chocolate. He was he had that same type of like, I don't give a fuck. I'm going to pass this ball however I can think of.

He was similar in that maybe not on that level, but he passed the ball in the same type of mindset. Yeah. It just was with, with Jason, I felt like after a while you were like, is this helping, you know, there were times like towards the end, I was like a bit more critical. Like after a couple of years of highlights and posters, I was like, yeah, what are they, what's going on though um yeah i didn't i didn't meant to do or mean to do a nets retrospective but i can't okay i know but i can't help but ask because i'm just giddy about it all i'm friendly with somebody who was on on one of those teams of kenyan martin and he was like dude they're like debo man they're like dudes were

scared of him um oh so scared like i was scared of his scared of him, one of my favorite, he would do like a slight impersonation of him, which I don't even want to get the guy in trouble. Cause that's how scared of Kenyon Martin would be. But he would be like, if anybody ever got into it with him, he'd be like, get my name out your motherfucking mouth. And he would just like say it over and over and like guys were actually scared. Well, Kenyon Kenyon's from a tough part of Texas. And again, we came up in the same era. Like they were a number one seed at Cincinnati when we were a number one seed at Arizona. And so like we watched them, they had DeMar Johnson, Logan, like they had so many great players on that team.

And then he obviously got hurt, was still a number one pick. So when I showed up to Brooklyn, when I showed up to Jersey, it was like, he was kind of like my, my kind of like a big bro, but I knew him, but he was very, Kenyon was always very like aggressive and, and he got, he had a stuttering problem when he was a little younger and that kind of like toughened them up even more because, you know, kids are mean.

And then he grows into a strong, tough guy and he would fight with all these things. And so he was very much a guy that like, you just didn't mess with. You just, you just, there were certain guys you pick battles with. And one more Jason Kidd story. Me and Kenyon, Kenyon was a pogo stick. Kenyon was a pogo stick. I was like a kind of a long running go get it guy.

One of my most nervous moments in my young, young career is probably like in the preseason game or two of the season. Jason Kidd keeps throwing these bullet bobs. And I had to go to my hero at 21 years old and be like, hey, like Jason, like this is how good Jason Kidd is busy. And I know we'll probably move on. But I was like, hey, Jason, like I don't jump like Kenyon. Like you can't just put it at a spot at the top of the square and Kenyon gets up

there in a split second. It's like, I don't jump that way. You have to like loft it and then I'll go get anything. And so I like, I'm nervous saying this, like, imagine telling Magic Johnson, imagine telling, you know, Jason Kidd, like how you need to get a pass, like telling Tom Brady how you need to get a pass. And he goes like this, okay, cool. And it was just over that we never had. That was the one conversation. And then after that, he knew that like Kenyon could back cut. He could put it to the top of the square and like a bullet. But for me, he just, he could throw it from half court

and loft it. And I would just go and like, like read it and get up underneath it and do whatever. But it was just like, that's how good he was. Like, it didn't matter how you jumped he could adjust to get a pass to the style of athlete you were like that shit is next level still to this day it is and i remember the first time at cal i was like what and then my father and i would get so excited to watch a cal game you know back then you couldn't get a game and then you were like yeah cal's on the late Monday game.

You'd be like, we're going to watch this guy. It was just that special. Yeah. Last thing, I'll tell you one more story. Please. One more Jason Kidd story. Yeah. I'll go. I get back after my rookie year. I go back to Arizona, Lute Olsen, our coach, Jim Rosbarrow. I go, and I'm just like, yo.ute Olsen, our coach, Jim Rosbarrow. And so I go and I go, I'm just like, yo,

and they were like, yo, Jason Kidd is good. You're like, yo. So they're telling me stories about him at Cal because I was a little young and I was right before I really started watching basketball. And he goes, and we're not even talking about how monster of a defensive player he was. People, he was a generational defensive player. Like that's how good he was.

He broke the Cal steals record, career steals record in two years. That's how good he was. So I go, I was like, yo, was he that time? He's like, Richard, whoever he was guarding, the other guard brought the ball up the floor. And I was like, well, who were the guards here? He goes, Richard, Damon Stoudemire and Khalid Reeves. Khalid Reeves, people don't know because he didn't really make it but he was a top 10 pick Khalid Reeves averaged 25 points a game at Arizona and went to a final four Damon Stoudemire everyone knows that's mighty mouse rookie of the year but it didn't matter whoever Jason Kidd was guarding the other one brought the ball up the floor that's how fucking dominant he was and I like when he

said that I was just like all right enough of the Jason Kidd story time. Last night was impressive. It was one of those deals. And I know you were on the local broadcast for Yes on That. Yes. And people turned the TV off. Nets come back down 24. I thought the fourth quarter defense, it's been a major problem.

It's a stat I keep checking here. But we got Durant out. We got Kyrierie out and Joe Harris's defense is going nuts. Shamit's hitting threes, Tyler Johnson. And people are like, isn't that that guy who got that weird restricted offer that everybody matched? Like he's back with them. What's going on? The defense from the secondary guys turned that around.

And this is coming off a road trip here, a back-to-back, and without the main two guys, that's actually, I think, the most impressive win for the season for the Nets. And it was a fully loaded Phoenix Suns team. Totally. Paul had 17 in the fourth. That's what I'm saying. And this is one thing I understand. It's like, people, this wasn't like a 20-0 run where Chris Paul was out of the game and guys were missing shots.

No, no, no, no, no, no. Chris Paul, the of the game and you know, guys were missing shots and no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Chris Paul started like the net started to come back, cut it to like 12, maybe eight. And then it just became a shot match. Like Chris Paul was like, Oh, it's Chris Paul time. And he did it the year before in Oklahoma, when he was at Oklahoma city in Brooklyn, I did that game where he had like 13 and a fourth and hit every clutch point that they needed. So I was like, Oh, here comes Chris Paul. He's going to hit the five or six buckets because he is a hall of famer. That's what he does. And he did, but the Nets just kept pushing. And that to me was the most amazing thing. And it's just like, you don't want to say it because

you see the holes in their thing, but it's like, if Anthony Davis is not a hundred percent healthy, in their thing, but it's like, if Anthony Davis is not a hundred percent healthy, if he's not a hundred percent healthy, I don't see a team that can beat the Nets in seven games. And that's hard to say because you see so many deficiencies currently, and they are working on them. They're bringing in guys like Yvonne Shepard. They're bringing in guys like Roberson, who are like going to like help, you know, have some defensive minded guys on their team. going to like help, you know, have some defensive minded guys on their team. But like the Nets last night, what they did,

and without KD, without Kyrie and James Harden doing, he's starting, I know he has a triple doubles and stuff, but you can start to see like the little pop starting to come back and his explosiveness and his quickness and his ability to knock down shots. But it's just hard for me to see when, if they are healthy and they shore up their defense from a 23rd-ranked defense to a 15th-ranked defense. They just have so much firepower. Yeah, you know, look, even Shamit, when he got switched on to Devin Booker on that last play, he bodied him up.

He played great defense. And I was like, they wanted Shamit on that switch. And they got it. And he stayed with them. And he was trying to back? They wanted Shaman on that switch. And they got it. And he stayed with them. And it was, you know, he was trying to back them down and all that. But Shaman, like, it almost looked like the secondary guys of like, all right, you know, you guys, maybe you guys thought this game was over. We don't think it's over. And that was like a real game.

It's totally, you're right. Because if you looked at him, be like, how did they blow that lead? They sit everybody down. And you're like, Chris Paul was hitting playoff level, like big time shots. I mean, you pull up from like 30 feet on one of those threes. Here's what I did notice though, because Harden comes back in at like five plus minutes, which I thought was an important thing for Nash to figure out,

hey, this bench is rolling. So how do I want to disrupt it? And credit to Harden too, because they talked about it after the game being like, all right, look, okay, now I'm good. Now I'm going to go in because they were giving him some extra time there. I love looking at switches. The Nets searched out Aiton to switch onto Harden every

time. And then they even got one with Green. So basically the goal seemed to be once Harden got back in there was let's find a way to get Aiton on the ball, on the perimeter. And it was actually a disaster for Phoenix the last five minutes. It was. And what's funny is that if you watch, there was a portion of the game where Brooklyn got going, and then they threw the ball into Aiton multiple times. And it was great. And it was great. On offense for Phoenix, yeah.

Yeah, on offense for Phoenix. But that was the thing to me is that if you don't nail home, because Chris Paul started hitting a ton of shots, but it's like you have to make them pay for going small and you can't do it one out of six times because it's not making someone pay. Right. Like that's my whole Shaq argument when we talk about could Shaq play in this era? Yes, because you weren't. No disrespect to Draymond Green. I love Draymond Green. Draymond Green is not guarding Shaq. Shaq was forcing you to keep one or two, like one big on your lineup at all times. So point being with Aiton is that they threw it into him late in that game and he got some good plays. They ended up getting a turnover at one point in time, but it was like, they never made the Brooklyn

Nets have to adjust. You're right. They didn't go to it enough. There was, there was a nice scramble where they got him with like Brown on him or something. And it was like, okay. And it was actually a hard pass to even make. And he caught and then over. So you're right. It wasn't enough. So I shouldn't say it was great as far as like, it was always successful. They just didn't really want to go to it. Yeah. And then, cause on the other side, they're going at him every single time. And so it's like, yo, like, yeah, you're, you're not that you're putting him in a bad way, but it's like, he doesn't have the advantage. One thing that I will say about James Harden. And when you look at some of the teams that they should have double team, James

Harden more, I don't care what what's going on. They should have double teamed him more because I know that the group had got him back, but you still should send two bodies and make them. But the nets now they have so many weapons. When you look at the Houston rockets last year, um, you could double team James Harden and yeah,, he was throwing it to Aaron Gord. Yeah, he was throwing it. But it was like, ultimately, like James was the guy, like the Lakers, when they beat them, they just didn't have enough firepower. You can't double team James Harden. You can't double team Kyrie. You can't double team KD because the monsters that are surrounding them. And even you got a guy like Joe Harris, who is shooting at such

an efficient level that it's like, even if the ball ends up in his hands, he's shooting at 48% from three. So it's like, they just have so many offensive weapons that if their defense even just tweaks and turns on for a moment, they did it in Sacramento where they scored 20 in a row. They did it last night, last night where they did. If their defense even just remotely turns on, it's a wrap. Give me a sense of, traditionally you'd be around this team to a different level. The access would be

different, but you're around it enough. You just finished playing. You've known Nash. What is it about this team that maybe you have a better perspective on than any of us would considering the Nash dynamic, the Kyrie, the Durant, the heart, you know, all of this stuff, because it's funny, you know, when this happened in Boston, it's like, whose team is it? The Miami thing, whose team in it?

Bullshit went on for like two plus years. I think it's really interesting that I don't hear any of that stuff with this team, whose team is it? And all this kind of stuff. And, um, I actually think it's a real positive because we seem to just hoisted onto all of these, these super teams trying to make it more complicated than it is. And again,

we made it more complicated when Kyrie was like, Kyrie was like, you know, I told James, he's the point guard. And it's like Kyrie, anybody that's been watching basketball, not even just before James Harden got there.

Yes. James Harden is the point guard. And it was the same thing that happened with LeBron James. Like LeBron James, say whatever you want. LeBron James is the point guard. LeBron James led the league in assists last year. He runs the offense. He scores. He's the point of attack. He gets everybody good shots. James Harden does the exact same thing. We didn't need Kyrie to say that, but then it turned into the, well, what do you think? I was like, dude, we're in positionless basketball. James Harden is leading the league in assists. Right. And it's like, he's at 11, the next person's at nine. Like, it doesn't matter who the point guard is, he's the playmaker. And I think James Harden has done an amazing job of deferring, especially early in the game.

with the KD, KD seven foot knocks it down. He throws it over to Kyrie. Kyrie goes into his bag. He knocks it down. James Harden then goes, gets a bucket. It's just how you start the game and what the person or what the people's mindset is. And their mindset is James, you are the playmaker. Now Kyrie obviously can play point guard. Like that's not like that's what he does, but it's like, you're going to be the playmaker because you do it at a high level. You do it at a very, very special level and you have the ability to create for yourself and others. And that's what you've done for the last, like probably five, six years, especially over your Houston time.

So I think like it is nobody's team. It's just roles have been defined. Kyrie, go be that assassin score. Kevin Durant, go be one of the best scorers that the game has ever seen. James, you go get, make sure everyone gets involved and you make sure that, hey, if people are slacking or whatever, then you turn on that offense all time. Because that's where he wants. He wants to be surrounded by players. That's part of the reason why he was frustrated in Houston. If Houston would have orchestrated a trade to bring Kevin Durant and Kyrie there magically, let's just say

this, James Harden would still be in Houston. He just, he wanted to, he wanted, I won't say necessarily sacrifice, but he wanted to put himself in a position where he had great players where he can defer. You can't say you want great players around you and be like, oh, but I'm going to still go for 33 every single night. Let's stay on the player part of this

because Draymond made some statements after game earlier this week. And I touched on at the top of the podcast where, you know, basically he's like, look, there's a double standard here where if a player asks for a trade, he gets crushed.

And to Draymond's credit, who I like a lot, he was like, Harden's not the best example, maybe because of what Harden was like in Houston, which I'm still surprised anybody in Houston defends Harden. When you're like, do you realize what he was doing there earlier this year or whatever?

At the end. At the end. At the end was disgusting. Yes. At the end, it was disappointing. At the end. Disappointing is another way of saying it. Well, I say it from a standpoint of like, James, we're rooting for you, dude.

Like you are. Nobody's perfect. Nobody's this. But it's like even when Kyrie was going to do, we're rooting for you, dude. Nobody's perfect. Nobody's this. But even when Kyrie was going, dude, we're rooting for you, man. But even as a person now in the media, it's like, James, you're making my job hard, dude. I want you to be happy. I want you to be happy. Or really easy.

I'm going to get derailed because I don't want to turn it into that. Because we're talking about a Nets team that's a game out of first now in the East, and they still haven't even put the whole thing together. So it's kind of scary. All right. But Draymond's comments, he was like, hey, there's a double. I get the fundamental point of what the double standard is,

but my question would be, is there a better way to do it? I'm all ears. If there's a better way to do this, the handling of players as people kind of asking tougher questions, wanting more respect, maybe wanting more control over their own lives. I mean, you as basketball players, it's weird because

you are the person, you are the skill, but you still kind of have to work for a corporation. And that's different because anybody else that would be as special as you guys can kind of call their own shots more so than somebody signed to a team contract is. So I also thought the examples of like Blake and Drummond didn't make a ton of sense where he lost me a little bit, but I want to go bigger picture on you as a player and seeing more and more players asking for this, this respect in a, in a different treatment. And I'm not pushing back. I'm just wondering how realistic it is. Well, it's first of all, great question. And Draymond, I heard that Draymond

wasn't even asked a question about that. He just decided to go on a rant. He knew. So that's one of the reasons why I love Draymond. It is a very complicated answer. First of all, I think it could change a player's mindset. You don't work for a team, you work for the NBA. Now within this corporation, you can get transferred to another department. Right. You can get transferred to another department at any point in time, especially you have a contract. I see your face there. What I what I'm saying. No, no, no. We're on the same page. No, no, no. I'm joking. What I said when I say this, it means that like so many times and we've seen the narrative slowly start to change because it was like, oh, when a player gets traded, it's this. And we've seen the narrative slowly start to change because it was like,

oh, when a player gets traded, it's this. But when he leaves a free agency, it's this, right? Like this narrative has been, I feel like, evolving. He has some points when he's like, dude, like what happened? They're like, well, he's like James Harden signed the contract. He should fulfill the contract. But yeah, he also signed the contract with the Houston Rockets. But what happens when the Houston Rockets decide to trade him? Like, are they not fulfilling the contract? And it's like, well, no, they're trying to do what's

best for the team. And it's like, well, so it can't work both ways. You can't just do what's best for the team. But then when the player wants to do what's best for him, he gets vilified. And I think that's always his point. And understand he's fighting for a group of 200 players, right? Now, mind you, the league and all of the fans look at this like, well, you're making this amount of money. You're doing this. You're doing that. I can see how this narrative can be tough. Blake Griffin started the Clipper franchise. I don't care what happened before. There's Lob City, and that has made the Clippers relevant. That was the marquee group of players that made the Clippers relevant, in my opinion. Then Chris Paul showed up and they had a great run and Doc

Rivers and all these other things. And then he signs his contract. And then one year into this contract, a five-year contract, they ship them off to Detroit. Right. And you're just like, and there was this big drama and this is like, yo, now he has to go to Detroit. Now he has to go someplace else. And like, well, he's getting paid a ton of money. And it's like, yes this is like, yo, now he has to go to Detroit. Now he has to go someplace else. And like, well, he's getting paid a ton of money. And it's like, yes, but like, let's, let's take the money aspect, at least not, not take it away, but let's put it to the side and say, how would you feel if you were an individual, right. That, that had committed and had grown a franchise. And I'm not saying that trades don't happen, but you just still have to listen to people and say

that, like, if I request a trade, because this situation is dog shit, even look at what's going on with Deshaun Watson, right? Like in football. And this happens in other sports. And then it's like Jared Goff. Jared Goff. I'm very good friends with people that know Jared. And like nothing's going to happen. Nothing's going to happen.

He's on the phone with his agent. Nothing's going to happen. Nothing's going to happen. You are fine. Okay, cool. I'm going to go. And I just closed on a home in Manhattan Beach. Nothing's going to happen. He's on the phone with his agent. Nothing's going to happen. Nothing's going to happen. You're fine. Okay, cool. I'm going to go. And I just closed on a home in Manhattan beach. Nothing's going to happen. Nothing's going to happen. I'm talking to you on Monday night. Nothing's happening. Tuesday morning, you find out you got traded. Like, that's just like, at the end of the day, I understand it's sports and business, but you don't, you, you can accept

the fact that like, this is part of it, but you also have to have an idea of like, yo, that's kind of fucked up. That's not cool to do it. And I don't think there is a good way to trade a player that is committed to a franchise and is committed to a community. And then all of a sudden he's up and leaving. So there is no right answer,

but I think the league has to do a better job. You know, you got Woj, you got these people that are breaking stuff. They talked about Harrison Barnes. The announcers are saying on television that Harrison Barnes has been traded. Harrison Barnes is sitting on a bench, not knowing that on TV, they're talking about he's been traded. That's not fucking good business. That's not good. That's just not, it's not good for people's mentals. And I don't think it's good for relationships. And I know it's a part of the business,

but it doesn't mean that it's a good part of the business. But how unique is it to the NBA? I mean, it all plays out publicly, but the same shit happens in broadcasting. The same stuff happens on some real estate deal where you think you're close, you think you're close. So I'm not saying any of it's cool. I'm not excusing any of it.

I'm simply asking, does there exist a better way to do it? I'm not saying any of it's cool. I'm not excusing any of it. I'm simply asking, is there actually, does there exist a better way to do it? Like, what are you supposed to do with Harrison Barnes? Are you supposed to, if you're the GM and the other GM's about to say yes, and there's all these moving parts, are you supposed to say,

hey, let's wait until the game is over? I mean, there's trades I hear about that are agreed to in principle. And like, there's a, I still think that the Simmons-Harden trade happened. And there's a real belief that optics got in the way of that deal happening as soon as Daryl got the job in Philadelphia. And guess what happened? Optics got in the way of Philadelphia ending up with a player that they want to end up with. Now that depends on who you believe. There's a million different

versions of the Harden Houston, Philly, Brooklyn version of this whole thing. But I get how much it would suck. I would get as a guy with a family, Richard. When you got traded, you got traded for Bobby Simmons and E.G. Leon. How the hell did that happen? Honestly, Lawrence Frank and I at the time, we just really didn't get along. Not from like we had a toxic relationship. I see him today. I wished him congratulations. He won, you know, GM of the year, but you know, I had been a rookie and I'd been with that franchise. And I think when Jason kid

got traded and then I think they just wanted to get the old guard out of their guys that had been any sort of, it's kind of like Thanos. He's like, I want to get rid of anybody that remembers the old days, right. That remembers that. Cause they want to get rid of anybody that remembers the old days, right? That remembers that because they want to start over. That's the idea. And I got told by a kid at my basketball camp that I got traded. That's kid you not. I'm walking through and maybe it was on TV.

Do you have to pretend, by the way, do you have to pretend like, oh yeah, I knew that. Or like, no, I was like, my dad said you just got traded to Milwaukee. And I was like, what? And like, again, it's part of the business. But then I look at my phone and in my phone, Rob Thorne starting to call and he was like, hey, Rich, you just like that's part of it. And it's like, look, that's also why, you know, like and I like Bobby. Again, me and Bobby were the same high school class.

So I've known Bobby since we were 16, 17. But it's just like, OK, that's what you guys want to do. And let lo and behold, the nets were in the lottery the next five years. Right. It's like, that's just part of the game. And so do you keep in touch with you? No, never kept in touch. Actually never, ever spoke a word to him, never talked to him. Like, you know, I get what they were trying to do anyways. My point is, is that when you're a player, you understand that there's a cost of doing business.

We are paid handsomely. We are living our dream. But you can't take the emotions out of it. You have to at least acknowledge the emotions that come with some of these trades. One of the reasons why I don't like... On ESPN and these different websites, they have the little trade game little trade, like the trade machine

it's like, yo, you're talking about fucking human beings here, right? They're talking about people. And then they'll get, we'll get on ESPN and be like, Hey, look, you could do this person. They look, the money matches. And it's like, somebody's family can be watching that people's kids can be watching that understand that these guys are grown men with kids that can be pulled out of elementary schools and pulled out of high schools. I'm not saying that we need to change everything, but just understand that there is a human aspect. And sometimes the human aspects either gets lost or it doesn't get respected. And I think that's just not good business. And I don't think that there's a way to avoid it. It's just understand that even with the money, it doesn't matter how much money your kids

are making. If you got pulled out of your sophomore year of high school because your dad got traded, that sucks. That affects kids. That affects families. That affects a lot of different things. And we just need to be aware of it and try and be more professional when these trades are being handled.

I don't know that anybody would disagree with any of that. It would suck to tell your kids. It would suck to be yanking kids out of school all the time. It would, it would be awful to be in trade rumors for two straight years. You know, I had Vucevic on this pod and I asked him about it. He goes, I think I was in a trade every day for like a year plus. There's no way to avoid what that would mean. And I know that the outside of it is, Hey, that's what the money's for. And you guys get to live this amazing life. Um, And that's not always fair and it's dismissive, but I feel like we're just going in circles on a discussion that doesn't have a better solution. It just doesn't. It'd be great if GMs could give

you guys a heads up, but you know what else doesn't happen? It's not always on the GM because you know damn well the agent wants to hook it up with the reporter because I can see on a timeline, be like, all right, the agent just went ahead and up with the reporter because I can see on a timeline be like all right the agent just went ahead and down the list of like who he likes the most to who he cares about the least and then you're seeing tweets like okay this guy had it for on and on and on as I as I mentioned a little bit earlier on so I don't know that it's fixable I understand Draymond's point but the one specific about Drummond I don't I doubt Drummond wants to be playing right now anyway. Yeah, and that's what's weird. For instance,

Greg Popovich, when I was in San Antonio for that debacle, when I got traded to Golden State. We just finished practice, and it was right around the trade deadline, and Greg Popovich called me. He's like, hey, we have a trade with Golden

State. Milwaukee is a three-way trade. You're going to be going to Golden State. He goes,, Hey, we have a trade, uh, with golden state. Milwaukee is a three-way trade. You're going to be going to golden state. He goes, we're waiting to find out if it goes through. He goes, if it doesn't go through, uh, I'll see you. Cause we were flying someplace. He's like, I'll see you on the plane in an hour. I'll see you on the plane in an hour. Or, um, if it goes through, then you'll be going to golden state. So I was like, cool. So I'm literally a text my agent and he goes, yeah, yeah, I've heard about it. Because it was like right at the deadline, right? It was like one of those deadline moves.

So 20 minutes later, he was like, hey, Richard, you've been traded to Golden State. I just want to say thank you, man. You've been a great, you know, love your energy, blah, blah, blah, whatever moved on. But it was like, there was also a moment where like, if the trade didn't go through or got blown up, this man had just called me and told me they were trying to trade me. And, you know, I could be on a plane playing for San Antonio 15, like, you know, the next day. So it was like, it's almost telling your girlfriend, like, Hey, we might break up. I'm waiting to see if there's other girls willing to go on a date with me. Uh, if not, then me and you are just going to go on a date next Friday. It's like, yeah. And you just got to take it. You got to just be professional.

And sometimes that's hard for 25-year-olds and 27-year-olds. And I get it. It is the cost of doing business. We are so blessed. We make so much money. We're living our dreams. These contracts just continue to get bigger and bigger and bigger. But you still have to remember the human element. We see so many people with tons of money and tons of fame that are miserable, that are unhappy, that are depressed, that are more fucked up. So you got to still try your best. And I put this on the league. I put this on the media. I put this on agents. You got to try your best to at least acknowledge the human element to this and just be a little bit better, even though that it's tough

to do. All right. This is the last, I kind of almost want to save this for another visit. So I'm not sure. Um, because it's, you know, man, I like, I have my boy, Justin Wessel. I, he loves your podcast. He heard that you live in Manhattan beach and he's like, dude, you got to get on with Ruth Rusillo. And then next thing you know, I think you mentioned my name. Cause you talked about me calling a game and he was just like, dude, dude, you got to get on with it. And he just loved you. Shout out. I know he's going to listen to this podcast. I didn't even tell him I was coming on, but I got to give my boy Justin Wessel a shout out. No, I appreciate that, man. Because every now and then RJ will run into each other. I think the last time we were both in a bank

parking lot. I was like, what's going on? And I think it was before everything was about to go down. And I was like, we got to have you on. And you're like, I was about to have you on. And I was like, all right, we're done. I'll do that. Well, yeah, we'll do both. Yeah. All right.

I'll just ask it now because I'm going to have you on again anyway. But so take your time with it. When we were talking about the switching, I know there are times where I'll make the mistake of thinking like why don't they just fight back to the original matchup because when you do that in the nba and especially the guard knows that you're going to do that then you can get completely burned because there'll be little reminders every now and then when you'll see somebody try to stay with the original defensive assignment and you go dude doing that in the nba is a disaster but one of the things i thought about

the 16 calvess Warrior Series that was really interesting is I thought they got into bad switches so badly against you guys at the top. We're talking like crossing half court and it would be a simple dribble and then all of a sudden they'd be in a bad mismatch

when it was still the action hadn't even started yet. Is that sound familiar to you? Do you remember any of this stuff? Are there teams that you're like, hey, they're bad at this right now? And I thought the Warriors, that was one of the biggest problems they had in that series. Well, first, when the Warriors, they call it triple switching, right? They call it triple switching.

So what happens is when you get a pick and roll, let's say it's a big man pick and roll. So it's Steph Draymond, right? So then Draymond is like, let's say it's Steph, Draymond, and it's Bron and, or no, so let's say it's Kyrie and Tristan, right? So then they'll switch. And then now Draymond is on the guard. And then the big rolls to the basket.

That's the first switch. Now the triple switch is when you take the third person. And so when Tristan tries to go to the block, Andre Iguodala will go and meet him on the block and then Steph goes out to the smaller guard, right? So that's how they were able to keep a bigger player on a bigger guy at all times because maybe it was Andre

and then Draymond would kick Steph out to Dele in the corner, or would get him onto a smaller player. And that's how they were so good defensively because they could switch everything, especially you wouldn't get advantages on the big. Where they struggled is when you would do switches at the top

and now you weren't able to get Steph out, right? You weren't able to get Steph out because Steph wasn't taking the big to the basket and then switching out on a smaller player. You would just do a switch at the top of the key. So you would do a JR who, who was maybe guarded by Steph and you would have Kyrie who was guarded by Clay. So then what they would do is we would go and set a

screen so jr would set a screen on clay and really set the screen really really make sure you kind of hold them a post-season screen a post-season screen and then kairi knows he's got to be aggressive on that attack to force the switch on Steph. So now Steph now has to guard him. And like, Steph's not a terrible defender, but that's an advantage you have. Like, you know, you want to have that Kyrie or Bron on Steph. Those are the things that you're constantly trying to do. And so it's when you get yourself in those positions, they were great at switching below the basket to get a bigger guy onto a bigger guy. But where you kind of had an advantage is if you could get a switch at the top and you could

get Steph guarding Kyrie, Steph guarding, Steph guarding, you know, Bron. Cause even if Steph does like this little fake show, if Kyrie's going downhill, now he's going to be alone because the clay can't get underneath. So you almost are forcing them into a switching position. So where you would try and get them on the low part that never worked. They were the best defensive team because as soon as like, like, like let's say you ran a pick and roll where it was Braun and clay, Ron and Kyrie and Braun is guarded, Bron is guarded by Draymond and Steph is guarded by, um, and Kyrie. Say it's Steph and Kyrie and it's Bron and Draymond. So when Bron sets the screen

and Draymond now switches on to Kyrie, Kyrie's great. He's amazing, but it's not like this crazy advantage because Draymond's a very good defender. And then you would roll Braun into the post and you're like, oh, you're going to have Braun on, on, on our step is going to be guarding Braun on the block. Well, they were the best in the league and one of the best of all time. And as he was rolling to the basket, all of a sudden, Andre Iguodala would come down there and then kick Steph out. So now you don't really have an advantage. Like, yes, Braun on Andre Vidal on the block, it's still an advantage, but it's not like anything that really like kind of jumps out to you. So when you do it at the top of the key, and now you have isos at the top of the key with Kyrie and Steph, that's where you had an advantage. That's why we ran the

pick and roll. If you go and watch the last shot, I feel like, like, Jr sets a screen forces Steph to go out. And even if you watch it, he kind of holds clay, right? Like grabs Clay's arm to like, no, you're not going over there, bitch. Right. And so like, these are the little bitty things that like, when you're at the top of the key, that's where you have the advantage because the Warriors were so good at switching throughout. So the only way we had an advantage is if we could get Steph or we can get one of their lesser defenders, whether it was Barbosa, somebody at the top of the key. Now you had a one-on-one advantage against a lesser defender. Doesn't mean there was a bad defender, but I'd rather go against Steph than going against Andre or Draymond or Clay Thompson, who are an elite first-team, all-defense type

defender. And the funny thing that you said that this series is only, it was not even five years ago, although for some that'll seem like forever, but it does also, it seems like it wasn't that long ago and forever ago at the same time. But as we were saying early on the eight and stuff and making them pay for going small, especially against a Nets team right now is constructed, has no rim protection. The small, big, the five,

one, one, five, however you want to frame it. That guy's just a decoration. Now the big guy on the small guy, that guy doesn't even, he never gets the ball anymore.

I mean, in today's version of the NBA, I'll see guys and they get their hands up and you're like, wait, you thought I was going to pass it to you? Like, no, now I have a weird... Now I just have a three to take. It's so disappointing. It's so disappointing because

I watched DeAndre Aydin at Arizona and I'm like, yo, this guy built like David Robinson. He runs like a deer. He's got skill, but he's got a, I don't know. I don't know him personally and I haven't been around him. So I don't know if his aggressive streak, but it's like, dude, why are you guys chucking up jump shots and not giving this guy the ball? Like Deandre Aiden, literally I would see him shoot more jump ups and actual like dribble,

dribble, hook shot, dribble, dribble, drop step. It's like they don't even teach big men skill sets anymore. And I think that's a disservice, right? Like Tim Duncan, like where would Tim Duncan be in the league this year? Like, oh, well, we want to see if he can shoot threes. It's like, but this dude can be a two-time MVP and five-time champion if you give him some fucking block work. You give him some games. Like where would Hakeem Olajuwon be in the game today?

They'd be like, oh, well, we want to see it. That's why I love Joel Embiid. That's why I love that he is a back to the basket, makes the right play, has skill, but he knows in order to be dominant, it doesn't matter how many threes Joel Embiid hits. His true form of dominance will be if he's around

that block. That's just the end of the story. It's not even about like, hey, let's get 20 posts back in the day. Like we, but it's, it's, it's just funny. Maybe it isn't funny, but I'll be like, Hey, you actually like 10 years ago, this is what you'd be playing the whole possession for. And now you're like, no, we don't, we don't throw it down there anymore. Even when you have to do that. So why would we do that? Why would we do that? Hey, look, your work is terrific. I'm glad we finally got the chance to do this and hopefully I'll run into you again soon. All right, man? Yeah, man.

Good to see you. Thank you for having me on. Can't wait to get you on road tripping once our fucking lives slow down. Yeah, man. I'll see you soon. Nikola Vucevic, 24, 11, and 3. Those are the numbers. He's shooting 43% on threes this year, six attempts.

He's been incredible. It's a career season for Vuce. The center of the Orlando Magic joins us now. Last year, you make the playoffs. You've had some personal success. There have been injuries this year. What's this season been like for you? Well, no, obviously with all the injuries for us, it's been a little challenging.

I know we're hoping that, you know, as the year goes on, we get guys back and we can stay healthy. The good thing is, you know, with everything going on, we're still like, you know, two games out of the playoff spot. So it's, you know,

that's something that's kind of holding us together and, you know, keeping us, you know, two games out of the playoff spot. So it's, you know, that's something that's kind of holding us together and, you know, keeping us, you know, to fight and continue the season. But just the way it is, I mean, you know, first thing when Markel went down, it was a big shock for us because we had started so well and we felt like, you know, had something going on and then you lose, you know, one of your main guys at point guard. So it was difficult and, you know, he's done for the season. So I think it was a big mental hit for us first. But I think that after a few games, we kind of figured out that it is what it is and we can still, you know, do something.

You know, we might not be able to go as far as maybe we wanted to. We thought we could, but we can still, you know, do something significant. And so, you know, since then, it's kind of been a lot of guys in and out. And that's, I think, the hardest part because, you know, you get a few guys back and, you know, since then, it's kind of been a lot of guys in and out. And that's, I think, the hardest part because, you know, you get a few guys back and, you know, you lose some others and then you kind of have to, you know, figure it out on the go,

especially with this season where everything is so condensed and there's not as much time to practice and everything. It's not always as easy, but I think that, you know, the good thing we've done is we fought throughout this all. I think as of late,

we've been playing a little better as well. So hopefully we can keep that up with guys coming back. You've been with this team now a few years. I was throughout this all. I think as of late, they were playing a little better as well. So hopefully we can keep that up with guys coming back. You've been with this team now a few years. I was looking this up. Do you think there's an argument to be made that the massive Bynum, Howard, Iguodala, Aflalo transaction,

that you'll end up having the best run out of all of those guys that were traded? Because I don't think any of us thought that with all those bigger names. But when you were traded in that, I was looking at, you could argue Iguodala because he's got the finals MVP,

but you're higher in that than anyone would have ever thought going back years ago to that trade. Well, I think that, like, I'm really the only guy that stayed with that team, you know? I mean, I think Andre, he went to Denver,

so he only stayed there for a year. So then he went to Golden State. Vina went in a year. And Ph. Nobina only did a year. And Philly and Dwight only did a year with the Lakers. So I think that, yeah, if you look at it that way, I think it worked out well for the Magic and for me. But, I mean, at that time, I think people didn't expect me to have the career I did.

I maybe didn't think, you and myself, that that I maybe had the career that I had so far. But, you know, just things turned out great for me here. And I've been able to stay here ever since. Are you surprised at your success? Surprised? No, because I know how much, you know, the work I put into it. I know how much, you know, coming to league. And I knew I had the talent and everything. I just had, you know, I needed some time to figure things out. It things out as hard as working when you come in you know there's a lot of things

kind of thrown at you it's so different in college you know you're kind of on your own and you have to figure it out and it took me a little bit of time I think but I knew that you know eventually I could play better than I did my rookie year when you know there were certain doubts about my playing. So I wouldn't say surprised. I think I knew that I could achieve big things and I could have a great career. It's just, you know, I just needed some time. For those that maybe don't know or forgotten your story, I mean, you come from overseas.

You were with Simi Valley for a year in high school, and then you end up at USC for three years. Were there ever moments early, maybe that first year with Philadelphia Philadelphia where people were like, oh man, what's it like being in the States? And you're like, dude, I've been here for four years where people would just, you know, see you, see the name, the accent, and then not realize that you didn't just come there a week ago. Actually, it's funny. There are people now that don't know I went to college here, Actually, it's funny.

There are people now that don't know I went to college here, even though I've been here for 15 years, more than half my life. And, you know, I've been 10 years in the NBA, and there are people that ask me, like, when you come to the States, and I'm going to go in high school, and I went to college. Like, oh, really? So, yeah, even now it happens. I think it's just… With other players?

Like, just guys? Players, no, Not as much players. Mainly, like, maybe some younger players that just come into the league that I don't necessarily know. But, like, fans or even, like, sometimes media people, they'd be surprised.

Or, like, they'll see that I'm born in Switzerland and they think I'm Swiss, you know, where I'm Montenegrin, but I was just born in Switzerland. So, I mean, it's just, I think, for people, you know, it's a little... I think they're not used to seeing a foreign, you know, name, you know,

being here so long or something. What was that like for you, going back to one year in high school? Because, I mean, at that time, it had to be... I'd imagine that was as challenging as just even going from college to the NBA. Yeah, well, it was the first time I ever left home. I mean, I left my parents or anything, and it was, like, almost as far away as I could leave. But it was challenging for sure at first, I think. So I first came with my dad. He helped me, you know, first two weeks, kind of get settled, see that everything was fine and all that. And then I think it didn't really hit me until he left, because, you know, he was with me. So I was kind of then once he left it was like oh okay i'm on my own so it was a really shock at first when he left

but um i think that like in the long run it's really helped me you know grow as a person and mature quicker than uh i maybe you know would if i stayed there so i think for me it was definitely the right decision because I needed that and I think when I talked to my dad now because he played ball professionally he saw it in me he saw that since I'm home I'm with my family I'm too comfortable and like he saw that I was talented that I had it in me but he thought that I was too comfortable being at home and that I might never you know get to make the best out of it. So once he saw that, he was like, I need you to get it. I need to kind of push you out and have you like figure it out on your own.

And that's what happened once I came here. At first, it was very hard for me to play because like everything was so much faster. Guys were, you know, bigger, stronger, faster than me. So I struggled, but then I caught up and then I saw it. Like I can do it in same in college my first year first few months like I couldn't score in like practice open gym it was like very difficult and then like eventually like I lifted I did all the work and I caught up so I think it was the same in the NBA like at first it was a little hard for me then I figured it out so

I think it was just uh for me to like grow as a person more than as a player I think it was just for me to grow as a person more than as a player. I think it was the best decision I made. So your dad, basketball background, as you mentioned, did you know SC? I mean, was there a moment where you're going, oh, wait, I'm going to play big-time college basketball or I'm going to get a scholarship and then, wait, I'm borderline lottery pick. Were these things that were always part of the plan or were you kind of wondering why anybody was thinking this of you? Because I imagine, as you said, you show up to your first open run

and you're like, how the hell am I supposed to score against these guys? So when I first came to high school, it was kind of, you know, let's try your year to see how it works. You know, if I get, you know, a scholarship, great. If not, then, you know, I can go back to Europe, you know if i get you know a scholarship uh great if not then you know i can go back to europe uh you know and play there so that was kind of the idea uh i honestly i mean i knew of like the big name colleges i didn't know all of them uh like so it was a first to just kind of see how it goes and then you know i get you know scouted by different uh recruited

by different colleges you know end up going to USC. And once I got to USC, so my first year, I'm just like, all right, I'm kind of just happy to be here. It's a little difficult for me. But I'm figuring it out as the year goes on, and I end up starting some games, playing meaningful minutes. Like in the NCAA tournament, something like that kind of in my mind was like, okay, I took a step forward. I can do more. And then my second year, I start. minutes like in the NCAA tournament like something like that kind of in my mind was like okay like

you know I took a step forward I can do more and then my second year you know I start I play more and more I play someone like the guys that were you know lottery picks I play well against them so you know things like that it was kind of like milestone that I achieved that helped me like build confidence give me believe that I can get to a certain level. But it wasn't until my junior year, I think that I realized I can make it to the NBA. I think to me, it was always like,

you know, I have good four year college career and then most likely go overseas, play there in a EuroLeague or something. But then like my junior year we played and then I was playing really well. I was, you know, having good games and my name started popping up in some drive boards and things like that. And I realized playing really well I was you know having good games and you know my name started popping up in some drive boards and things like that and I realized okay I can make

it and then towards the end of my third year you know I had a good idea that I probably was going to leave after my junior year and make it to the NBA and uh so just kind of I think it was just like little things that happened over my college career that kind of made me realize I can get there well you've had an unbelievable year I mean it's arguably the best year of your career and over my college career that kind of made me realize I can get there. Well, you've had an unbelievable year. I mean, it's arguably the best year of your career. I was really locked into that Warriors game because originally we were going to do the interview and how it was working, and I know that you're missing a bunch of guys,

and we've talked about the injuries and Isaac going down and Gordon missing some time, and of course, Foles going down as well. In a game like that where you know, okay, they're double they were doubling you pretty regularly and your passing has been incredible this year how how much will you know that ahead of time how much will you see okay this is how this game is playing out and then ultimately like your adjustment in a game where you go okay this is a little different because of our limitations in line up where i have to maybe play this game differently than i normally do well i always like when uh we start in the game where I have to maybe play this game differently than I normally do? Well, I always, like, when we start in the game, I kind of always try to get a feel of what they'll do defensively. And we have an idea when we scout them, like, this is how they usually defend pick

and roll. This is how they defend and oppose. This is what they do in each situation. And, but like, as far as like when I catch them in the post, I always expect to get doubled. Like, I mean, most of the time I do, it's rarely that team let me play. So I kind of always expect it and kind of get a feel for it first. And then as the game goes on, you figure it out, you know, you read their rotation, you see what they do, you know, where they're coming from. Is it baseline? Is it from the top guy? Once they come double, what they do on the weak side, you know, how do they set up their defense, their health side. So you read all that. And as the game game goes on it becomes a little easier because you've

seen it already a couple times uh a lot of times what team will do they won't do the same thing over the whole game they'll like switch it up so they give you different looks uh but um i mean it's been a little challenging for us because we had to go away from some some things we do offensively like we've had to like post me way more than we usually would you know our we don't have as much pick and roll game as we'd like uh which is something that's been a big part of the nba and something i really like doing so we've had to adjust certain things but i think that we've done a pretty good job on the go uh but yeah for me it's just kind of as the game goes on you're gonna get have to get a feel i think that's something that i've been also gotten a lot better uh as the game goes on, you kind of have to get a feel. I think that's something that I've been, also have gotten a lot better

as my career went on, just having, you know, being able to make adjustments as the game goes on, which I think is always important. You have to do that. With the limitations on the lineup sometimes, do you feel like, man,

I might just have to shoot a ton here? I mean, the three-point shooting has been incredible this year for me, and you're taking a lot for a big guy, but you've always had that. I mean, you've extended your shooting range consistently throughout your entire career but will you have moments is there a game where you go okay you know what actually the way they're defending this the way they're setting it up i'm not even gonna bother like i'm gonna start spotting up here

and just kind of get my own a little bit more uh no i mean none that's not really because i like to like make stuff and do different things, not just post up, not just shoot threes. I think when you give defenses different looks offensively, it makes it harder for them. But also, even if I catch an opposing to do double, that means I have two people on me, so there's going to be somebody open on the other side.

If I'm able to kick it out, if I'm able to make the right pass, somebody will be open. In the game against Sacramento, the double team. You know, if I'm able to kick it out, if I'm able to make the right pass, somebody will be open. You know, like in the game against Sacramento, the double team towards the end, I was able to make, you know, play the passes to guys cutting.

We got some easy points. So you have to do different things. You can't just settle for one and then it makes it much easier for the defense to defend you. And, you know, you have to throw

different things at them. So I think that's what we try to do. You know, I think with me popping out to the three and being able to shoot the three as much, it's helped my game a lot, but also the team, because it puts pressure on the defense a lot. It drags out the big man with me out there, so it opens up the space. So all that, when you do it, the defense has to work all the time.

I don't know how honest you can be with me, because I know you guys are all competitive, but who sucks to deal with? Who do you go up against? You're like, ugh. Honestly, to me, it's not as much one guy necessarily. It's more the way the team defends. For me, a team like Toronto, they're all over the place with the defense.

You know, they're like they run at you. They don't let you know. They don't give you anything easy. And so that's again, it's hard to play because you like have to work extra hard to get like just to get it like a good shot of, you know, some teams play more, you know, kind of protective paint defense. You know, you might get some open looks. It all depends on what the defense does as a whole. you might get some open looks. It all depends on what the defense does as a whole. There's certainly guys that are very good defensively that don't make it easy for you. For me, sometimes when it's a smaller big man and he gets kind of low or under you,

you have to work much harder to get a deeper position to get into pain. Sure, you can shoot over him, but you have to get to that position. It all depends. To me, it's really more about the team defense than individually. I think at this level, it's hard

to stop guys one-on-one in general. So you always have to have that team defense that's very good. I always like asking, and because the game was recent, and this is probably unfair, but there was a play against the Warriors where I think it was the end of is probably unfair, but there was a play against the Warriors where I think it was

the end of the third quarter. And you're probably going to be looking at me and be like, dude, we played a couple games since then. I don't want to do this right now. But it was Steph coming off a screen with a baseline cutter. And you,

it was basically the confusion of do we all stay with Steph or do we leave this guy alone? And you were playing the switch correctly and staying, but then the other guy stayed because it was Steph. I just wonder how much somebody like that, specifically with his shooting, it feels like a magnet where he's always pulling defenders into bad decisions because you never want to feel like you want to leave him. Can you give us a better explanation of what that's like to actually be out on the court trying to stop?

I sure remember that play and it wasn't supposed to be a switch. It was supposed to kind of like, I was supposed to like hedge out and like deny for a second, come back. Yeah, you stuck your arm out

to kind of like show. I actually stayed a second too long with Steph and then, no, I think Draymond got the slip or something yeah right open but it was um I mean with like players like that it's just you know that's what makes them so good not only their ability to score but their ability to just attract the defense so much to them it opens up so much for everybody else so like in that game Steph I think he had 10 threes but you, you know, he hit a couple in a row.

And it's just natural that he just attracts, you know, more people towards him, and then you just, you know, it's just natural instinct. Like, okay, he can't score, and then, like, you go towards him, like I did on that play, but another guy gets wide open. It's a wide-open layup, you know, and to have so much shooting on the court, the court is so spaced out. That's what makes it so difficult to defend him.

But I think one thing with Steph is that's special and unique about him, and he just never stops moving on the floor, which is not crazy. You know, he's just always moving around screen, going. He even sets great screen for guards. He's always in action. So it's very, very hard to defend that. And obviously with his shooting ability and his ability to dribble and everything, it's just very hard to defend that and obviously with his shooting ability and he's you know his ability to dribble and get to and everything is just so hard to defend him and you know that's what makes him i mean obviously so great but it's just he opens up so much for

for um his teammates as well do you like to watch games when you're at home and it's a night off oh for sure yeah so you'll just you'll just go and you'll like what do you what are you saying your favorite things to watch like take me through your viewing routine when you're home on an off night so before like when i was younger i was kind of almost watched as a fan you know and i watched like certain things but i think now as i got older like i'll watch you know like what certain teams do uh how they run their thing especially if it's a team we might play in a couple of days or something. You kind of, it's kind of, I kind of scout them. A lot of times I'll watch, obviously players in my position,

but honestly, a lot of times too, I'll just, you know, sit and enjoy just watching a good basketball game with no great players playing. It all depends, I think, you know, what the game is, who's playing. If it's a player I enjoy watching, you know, I maybe focus a little bit more on him, but I think now

as I have more experience, I got older, I kind of, you know, get to see the bigger picture, you know, see, you know,

what they do, like see what they do well and what they don't do well, you know, their mistakes, things like that, so it's kind of, you know,

I watch, you know, as a fan, but at the same time, I scout them, if that makes sense, because, you know,

it's part of it, but I just, I mean, I mean, I came to basketball, I mean, you know, as a fan, but at the same time, I scout them, if that makes sense, because, you know, it's part of it. But I just, I mean, I mean, I'm a game of basketball. I mean, I've been watching. I've been part of it, actually, since I'm a kid. My dad played. I grew up around it. So I've always been a huge fan. I was, you know, loved watching it.

And I think you can actually learn a lot just by watching other players, see what they do, you know, how to react in certain situations. I think it's a great way to also get better. Have you ever, when you went up against Embiid, said it's a good thing they traded me or you'd be coming off the bench? Well,

I mean, that would be, I mean, probably. It's funny to me because a lot of times, like fans from Philly would be like hey we wish we still had you and i'm like you guys haven't beat like what are you talking about pretty good so but it's uh i mean uh it probably would have worked out differently because they

traded everybody at that time before they got him so i probably wouldn't trade anyways but it was uh it's funny when people come to me like man when we go to philly man we wish we still had you and i'm like uh well, okay. But you guys just have one of the best big men in the NBA there. But it's just, I mean, you still appreciate it. So who would you rather be stuck with, Embiid, one-on-one, or Giannis? One-on-one? Yeah.

What was the question? Probably Embiid because I'm used to guarding him a little more so i feel like i know he's getting a little better with yannis i never really guarded yannis other than if it's a switch or something uh so probably and i mean i think i'd have a better chance against a true big man than an actual guy that's you know three four but obviously one of the most athletic guys in the nba everybody likes you avooch you know a couple guys that i know what staff like you and i think sometimes you can like just mistake like being really nice for being quiet or reserved or whatever does anyone ever in in the course of a game like do you get into it with anybody

does everybody anybody give you a hard time or does everybody just like you enough that they don't mess with you? I mean, I'm not big on, like, conflict or, like, trash talking or anything like that. I can't really remember if it's happened in a game where I got into it with somebody, maybe, but rarely. I'm not big on the trash talking stuff. I kind of just, you know, focus on playing,

you know, focus on playing and I don't do that. I think I felt like if I started talking trash, that it'd take me out of my game. It's not something I do naturally. So I'd have to put like extra effort to actually, you know, trash talk. So it wouldn't necessarily motivate me. Like some guys didn't like it. You know, they use it to like fire them up. To me, I don't like like i feel like it would do the

opposite so but i don't think i ever got into it like with somebody like something really really like meaningful you know you've had the individual success you're having another great career year and you know this is kind of the way the league is so i'm not i'm not trying to get you in trouble or anything like that but i'm just sometimes i think we on the outside can forget that this is your job. You paid well, your job is to represent the magic. Your job is to show up and play every night as hard as you can. And you know, that's what the money's for. Right. But I think when somebody is as good as you are and the franchise has felt like it's just kind of lingering here a bit. And you've even been mentioned, and again, I don't know what's real or not, but just the way rumors work, like, oh, would they ever move him him or like how do you see your role in your path long

term with a team where it seems like everything's fine but at some point it's almost like outside people are going when is he going to start worrying about himself more because that seems to be the standard for so many great players in the league i mean honestly i've been in like uh not last two seasons but before that i've been in like so many trade rumors i think one year i was in a almost a different trade room i swear it was almost every every day like every day or something else or it would be like the same team but just you know different things and it honestly doesn't really like affect me because that that for example like the same team but just you know different things and it honestly doesn't really like affect me because that that for example like the trade election like that i don't have any control over

it so i don't like think about it because i can't do anything about it as far as like if i'm not going to start thinking about myself or something i mean i do i mean i had you know i was a free agent i had a chance you know to pick where I wanted to go. And I decided to stay here. And I felt like we, you know, the path we're on, the process we're in, you know, was good for us. And we could do something, you know, significant with it. And I mean, I know we're not necessarily a championship team that's going to go fight and win, but very few teams are, and it's very hard to do that. And not every player, you know, over the course of their career

gets the opportunity to play for a championship, or they might maybe towards the end of their career. But I feel like there is something, you know, also about, you know, building a team and trying to get to a certain point, kind of starting from zero, which, you know, I kind of did here. You know, we started for the rebuild and I was part of it. And, you know, it got to a point where we made the final of the playoffs. And, you know, that was huge for me.

And obviously, I do want to win a championship. I do want to play for that. But sometimes it takes time and, you know, you can't have it all, you know, whenever you want it. Sometimes things take time and, you know, we'll see how my career, you know, develops. I feel like I still have many years to play. But, you know, for now, I'm happy here. And I think that, you know, this year, if we're full strength, you know,

we'll definitely be a playoff team and playing for something. You know, and we had a chance to fight in the playoffs and, you know, do something significant. Now it's obviously more difficult. I think we can still make it. Hopefully, it's obviously more difficult. I think we can still make it. Hopefully, like I said earlier, if we get some guys healthy and we put some good games together,

we can still be right there because this year it's 10 teams that get a chance to make it. 7 through 8, you have to play to play in games, but you never know what can happen. I think it's just every player has the right to make their own decision, do what can happen. So I think it's just, I mean, like, every player has the right to make their own decision

and do what they want. I think for me here, it's been good so far. You know, there's been some up and downs, but I think it's just my path, and I think that, you know, I don't regret any of it. I think it's what's gotten me to this point, and so, you know, I'll continue to give my all as long as I can.

And then we'll see what happens. You've been great this year, man. So I appreciate what you've done this year. And thanks for your time today. Thank you. You want details? Bye. I drive a Ferrari 355 Cabriolet.

What's up? I have a ridiculous house in the South Fork. I have every toy you could possibly imagine. And best of all, kids, I am liquid. So, now you know what's possible. Let me tell you what's required. Let's finish with a little life advice. Lifeadvicerr at gmail.com.

Check in with Kyle, who everybody is really excited about. What's up? Well, you keep saying that. I don't know if I believe you, but I just did want to. It was a little while ago now that we're at the end of the podcast, but I just wanted to let you know that Drake did coach a women's basketball team in the Best I Ever Had music video back in the mid-2000s, late 2000s. I forgot that.

So the heads up, Kyle. Thank you for that. And by the way, if people, I know this is going to blow people's minds, but your handle is, so to get more of this insight, your handle on Twitter is what? It's TomShady300.

And I still don't have to change it because he just won a Super Bowl. TomShady. 300. Okay. So it's not, it has nothing to do with Eminem. No, it's Tom Brady. I actually changed it toem no it's uh it's tom brady i actually

changed it to tom shady i think when deflate gate was happening and i got a bunch of new york giants jets fans so i just kind of leaned into it oh okay all right so it was branding branding there okay uh all right here we go i you know we're getting almost this community of follow-ups here and if they're good enough and you know don't feel left out if we don't get to your email, because there's, there's a few thousand here, uh, pretty regularly. Okay. But, um, a guy did want to check in. He goes, Hey, I want to let you know, I went to a bachelor party and wedding stag for my friend. I roomed with a broad. So this means he's alone, showed up to the rehearsal dinner alone, talked to maybe four people because all of his friends from school were bro-ing out.

Telling you, it is really tough to be with the college core and you're the non-core guy. I'll tell you from experience, like as our core Vermont group would expand into hometowns and get to know the the moons of the friendship so like hey all the all our our core guy from norwell mass and then we go to norwell and then we meet his crew and then there would be overlap where guys would actually like each other and guys would meet up at boston but the outside guys would be like once the uvm guys are together it sucks like all you guys do is scream over the top of each other, try to outstory each other. And if you're not part of the UVM orbit at some event, it's actually not that much fun to hang out with you guys. And it was like, oh, yep. Fair, fair. So anyway, I know exactly what our

guy is saying here. So he said he met, all right, he talked to maybe four people because his friends were all bro-ing out. They asked me to play golf with them the next morning. I showed up at the golf course at 7 a.m., 40-minute drive by car, and three people asked me who I was when I showed up to the putting green, all of which I had met the night before. Then I pre-gamed alone in the hotel, showed up at the wedding, hung around till dinner until I eventually left and drove two hours to philly for a friend's birthday party mega good advice i will never ever go to a bachelor party where it is not my boys ever again that's sad well i don't know i think he's a hero no i just i'm thinking of him pre-gaming by himself in his hotel room like this fucking sucks fair that's fair right um okay we got a we got an interesting one here love the

show late 20s good job average looking guy I get along with almost everyone in a generally positive about life and other people I don't have much I don't have too much experience with serious dating but casual flings have been more prevalent all right just remember some of you guys super bummed out about your

casual flings there be guys on these these emails that would kill to have one casual fling. All right? So there you go. Over the past four months, I've been seeing this girl frequently about 10 or plus dates. All right. So 10 dates plus or so. The entire time, I knew it would have to end considering I'm moving to another country for my job this summer. I was upfront about my plan and intentions for the relationship.

She seemed to be on board. Last week, she broke things off entirely to pursue her ex-boyfriend, who was a staple in her life and is still one of her best friends. I know I shouldn't be sad about it considering I knew it was going to end and I wasn't giving her a longer commitment, but it still hurts. The part that stung the most is she told me something that several other partners have told me as well. It is along the lines of, thank you for showing me my worth and how I should be treated. And I learned a lot about what I want from a future relationship because of you. All bold font here. I feel like I am always the one that makes women realize what they want next. The previous girl I dated told me this as well and ended up marrying her next boyfriend. I get the feeling this current girl will end up doing the same.

Is this just an excuse women use to break things off and make men feel better? Is this just bad luck with me or am I the ultimate fall guy here? Some friends say I am too nice in the relationship, but I don't buy that. All right. Fall guy, he was referencing the Chris Carter to the NFL rookies thing. I don't think that's quite the same use of fall guy, but I get where you're going here. All right, let's start with a couple of the positives. The fact that this most previous girl that you dated, who you knew was going to end anyway, that she went out with you 10 plus times means you've got something going

on. All right. She liked you enough. and you obviously liked her, that she wanted to keep hanging out with you. Now, I know it kind of sucks when somebody gets back together with their ex and you're like the in-between person. Three different girls all got engaged to a guy they had previously dated after they dated me, which made me think that I was like, man, just a couple months with me. And the girl was like, oh, forget. Yeah, I'll go back to the other guy and get married. That was the worst. So that's what I kind of, my friends thought that was really funny for a little while. They're like, this is like three in a row where they immediately got married to the guy they were dating right before they met you.

I was like, yep, seems to be a pattern. So, you know, whatever. It could also just be the randomness of numbers. So don't worry about it. So I think that's a really good positive. It seems that women are dating you and after the first one, they don't want to bail. They want to see you again. It can feel a little bit like it's not you, it's me when they say the, thank you for showing me my worth. But I've also known some women that would date somebody that they knew it wasn't really a long-term thing. And I hate to be shallow about this, but a lot of times it probably would come down to like a physical thing. And they'll say, you know, I just needed to date somebody really nice because I wasn't treated

great in the last relationship. You know, I need to date somebody that's just nice. And then I'd be like, okay, but you know, is that fair to the other person? Like, are you actually being selfish right now? Because you need to be treated better than you've been treated in the past where this other person's like heart is going to be in on this. And they're going to think like they have maybe somebody that is going to be part of their long-term future. And all you're doing is just sort of like rehabbing with a nicer person right now. And I'm not saying that's necessarily happening to you, but it's okay to be aware of that. Here's what I just keep doing, man. It's really simple. If you've been out with a few women over

the last few times that you've dated and they've all been this great to you and responsive and kept wanting to see you multiple times, I think you're going to end up finding somebody that appreciates the way you've made some of these other women feel if they're telling you the truth. And it's going to be fine. I would just keep doing your thing. Don't change it. Don't put too much pressure on yourself. Don't start thinking like, oh, hey, is this girl going to say the exact same thing to me? Because when you start getting your own head about it, then I don't know, they can pick it up, man. They can smell confidence and the lack of confidence on you. It's an incredible superpower

that women have. But I would not get too down on yourself about this because if you had said, hey, I've been on 10 dates with 10 different women. I never get a second date ever. I'd be like, all right, we got some problems here. Like this guy keeps screwing up and that's not you. So just keep doing your deal. It seems that people appreciate it and you're probably going to find somebody.

And look, you're moving overseas anyway. So whatever. Go watch Good Luck Chuck. Yeah, Eurotrip. You ever seen Deuce Bigelow, Male Gigolo? That guy killed it. Totally. Also, I looked at the plot from Good Luck, Chuck. Yeah, Eurotrip. You ever seen Deuce Bigelow, Male Gigolo? That guy killed it. Totally. Also, I looked at the plot from Good Luck, Chuck.

That was the Dane Cook movie back in 2007. I missed that one. Every girl, it was exactly this guy's situation. Every ex-girlfriend that he has, the next person they meet, they get married to. So word gets out. And then girls try to hook up with him so that they can find their husband. and in the end he ends up um staying with jessica alba so good luck yeah there you go and he worked at costco didn't he i think that was employee of the month oh another another i always i always screw up my day and cook movies um

i just making sure this wasn't a movie plot here, right? This one seems real. Yeah. This one seems real. Yeah. I think this one was real. Get a couple of fakes every now and then. He said everybody got married after meeting him. Then I would have been fake.

Yeah. And then if he said, I just, you know, he's like, I'm working at Costco, but I'm working my way up. You didn't like the Costco joke the second time I was muted.

No, I laughed. I I probably it wasn't was it would it just been funnier if you started mixing all sorts of Dane Cook movies in there but that's what you're here for that's waiting you're no you're here for a younger perspective and and to keep me in line on I mean how many of the Dane Cook CDs did you buy um none because it was my wire it was my space and LimeWire that was his thing he would just put it on his MySpace and then all of a sudden you're listening to a track

on MySpace called Shit on the Coats and it's like what am I doing did you ever buy CDs? you're not that young yeah I bought CDs but also my buddies would burn them for me too that's right I don't see you being the guy in the group that would be like,

oh, I'll get it, and I'll burn a copy for you. I see you being the other way around. I would get CDs for Christmas, but it was like what my parents would give me. So it's like, now that's what I call music volume seven. And it's like, I like three of these songs. Hey, Ryan, I know you love emails with thousands of words, but I got something short not too philosophical for you i live in northern colorado and considering buying some land next year so due

to outrageous prices in colorado colorado's i can't figure out this real estate thing around the country right now man stuff is absolutely i don't know people just moving away from cities is that forever now is that what everybody's going to do? Looking back on what this pandemic will do to certain, you know, beyond the obvious things, but some of the things that we can't predict right now, they're going to change the way people go about their business. Yeah, I don't know.

I can't figure it out. Due to outrageous prices, I'm looking at some alternative options. I was thinking about getting some acres in Wyoming and remembered you spent some time there. Is this guy fucking with me or what? Yeah, I can tell you a place that's cheap to stay for one night. It's free.

And I can give you a hotel recommendation where your key works on a bunch of the doors. Any suggestions on certain areas that you like in the state? Here's what I'm telling you. I don't know Wyoming well enough. Jackson Hole isn't exactly where you want to go to save money. Do you think property value there could boom considering the rising costs in Colorado and other Western states? What you'd probably need to figure out is the next the next boulder before it became boulder because boulder's ridiculously expensive too but boulder didn't make a ton of sense because it felt like it wasn't convenient

to the airport then again airport joke here nothing is convenient to the airport in denver so you know i like cherry creek a lot um but that's not where you're you're wrecking i i don't know the rest of the Wyoming towns. Actually, I don't really know Jackson hole that well. Um, I don't know any of the towns well enough to, to give you a better advice on this thing. I mean, Bozeman seems like it's really expensive now too. Um, but it's not going to be as expensive as Denver or Boulder, that kind of stuff. And it depends on what you need. Do you need to be near an airport? Like I always needed to be near an airport because I was gone a lot. So unless you're just going to go straight up McCandless and buy land with like no access

roads or paved roads and that kind of stuff, which I don't think, I don't think that's what you're saying, but you have to, you have to figure out at least on research, like, do you need to be near a medical center? You know, I know some people think that the resale, whether it's schools or also, you know, a big town, like I've been looking in Burlington, Vermont for a while. Um, and part of the resale value in that is that you're near this amazing medical center. So whether it's younger people and then everybody tried to talk up like, Oh, we're doing a lot more tech and be like, are you, you know, are you actually a tech center to like one place startup, um, downtown. But if older people are moving to these towns, they like the medical centers too. So that's

always something to think about on resale alone here. So I can't tell if this is a bit of a pandemic boom where everybody feels like they would just want to explore and live in the woods. And I mean, live in the woods. And I mean, live in the woods, like when Vermont real estate and the surrounding Burlington areas, you know, not just Burlington, but outside are on fire the way that they are. Um, you know, Bozeman's been on this run for a little while. I mean, Jackson hole that that's been over forever. I mean, that's, that's elite elite stuff. Um, you know, I even looked in big sky for a while, um, South of Bozeman and all that kind of stuff. I really, really like big sky, but if you need a town town, like a, a more of a

functioning town, big sky is just going to be too slow for you. Um, where else? I don't know. I've got a lot of places I've been to are like the ski areas and I don't ski. So I don't, I, you figure that one out, but I guess I just like the towns. So that's not, none of that stuff's going to be cheap. So you need to kind of, I don't know if it's like a Laramie or, you know, I don't,

I don't know those towns enough. I'm not going to start breaking down Cheyenne for you here. All right. So I would focus on Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, but I would focus on trying to find a town that, that does it.

If does Missoula do it for you? You know, it's a nice little deal to get the airport. You pull in, it's kind of cool, got some stuff going on. You could explore Montana for a month and still not do it right. So there you go. I don't know if that was any help. I don't feel like that was any help at all. I'm just admitting that to everybody right now. Okay, last one. We'll juice it up here a little bit my wife uh excuse me that would have been a bad one my wife sucks no my friend's wife sucks all right this is a longer one but it's it's worth it i'm around 40 most of my best friends from school all moved to the same big city post-college that's

great man so now they're in the same suburbs i have a solid group of local guys i've been friends with 20 years man so jealous that's great i have plenty of friends whose wives range from great to tolerable, but I have one very good friend whose wife plain sucks. My wife is the sweetest, nicest woman in the world. No idea. So right now we're going, all right, you know, what's going on? We need examples here, buddy. He gives us those. No idea why she went for a guy who walks around bitching about everything like me. He's talking about his wife, but even she can't stand this woman. That's a bad sign because I have some friends where the significant other likes everybody. And if that person doesn't like somebody, they're like, that's pretty bad. All right.

But even she can't stand this woman. Again, we're talking about our guy's friend's wife. It doesn't feel fair to subject my wife to dealing with her anymore. You know how couples families get. You kind of break off the guy's chat, girl's chat. This woman is cold, unfriendly, incredibly strict about rules and schedules, aka only hers, and her kids matter. Outright mean to people's faces, unable to go with the flow, and just not fun to be around. I call her Elsa the Ice Queen from Frozen.

Did you see that one, Kyle? Frozen? No, I didn't, but I know the Elsa reference. Yeah. No, that's cool. Quick example. I happen to start dating my wife at the same time as my friend. Not dating his friend, I'm assuming here. I'm assuming when his friend started dating his wife. We went on a double date early for us to meet each other's girlfriends.

He mocked, or his girlfriend mocked, now his wife, mocked mine to her face at the dinner table for thanking me for paying for dinner. She did a huge thank you schmoopy and planted a big overdramatic kiss on my friend's cheek. I was so taken aback that I said, wait, did you just mock her? And the girl doubled down. I have a beard. My friend does not. She started stroking my buddy's face and loudly said, I just appreciate so much when my grizzly Adams pays for my dinner. I regret not telling her to fuck off. But then my girlfriend and I worked to get over it because my friendship with the guy is strong and important to me. Understood. Fast forward, our kids are the exact same age. We

live five minutes from each other. So we've been in the habit of doing a lot together. For several years now, almost every time we get together, they bring up another one of our mutual friends or one of his high school buddies and how they no longer hang out because they quote, they never make an effort to do anything with us. It's like seven times in a row of us reaching out to them. I like to use the line you once said to Bill Simmons a few months ago, which is, quote, do you have a whiteboard where you keep track of this or what? So it's very noticeable to them that are being dropped by almost everybody over the last few years, but they're unable to look inside and examine why. All of our friends and all of their

wives are not shy to each other or us about their strong dislike for this woman because she really just sucks to be around consistently. I cannot stress enough how unanimous this opinion is. I guess our other friends don't feel quite as bad as I do about letting a good friendship wither away. Or their wives have put their feet down and said enough is enough. I'm honestly a bit embarrassed that she is associated as a good friend of ours in the community. I finally hit my breaking point around Halloween. She was talking about her son's perfect behavior when getting dressed. And I said, wow, I wish my son was more cooperative about putting pants on. My three-year-old, again, three-year-old here, was just playing around on a scooter in the driveway.

And she turned to him and said, you really need to start being better behaved, young man. You're a bad little boy. All right. Anybody listening to this right now that's a parent you're losing it i don't even have to have a kid to know like that's the last thing you can do you see nat geo videos you know that's that's about the closest human beings get to nat geo when people start parenting other people's kids um it was not a joking tone as if he would get that anyway i was was so shocked. I didn't say anything. Also partly because we were wrapping up and in my head, I was thinking, let them leave. And this is really it this time. Okay. Right. I stopped texting my buddy almost completely after this, because I know as soon as we start engaging, he's going to start trying to make plans.

And my wife and I were just done. I couldn't imagine hanging out with him anymore and still do not want to. He called me a bunch of times around new year's. I had to call back. Eventually he told me he just spent two weeks at his in-laws and it was brutal being in that house for them with that long. I asked why and he described his wife to a T. He just can't make the connection. She came from that house and he still can't figure out his wife is exactly what it described as why he doesn't like being around his in-laws. It was legitimately bonkers. We ended up making plans, but I insisted on their neighbors coming along too, to kind of diffuse his wife from mine. Then we did it again and I did the same thing. And I think he picked up on it because we've

never hung out with them before. I've since asked him to come have a drink in my garage a few times to get credit for hanging out without having to involve the wives. I haven't changed my mind. I'm done subjecting my wife to the heavy lifting of hanging out with her. We have plenty of friends we like being around. We have a two and a three year old and are taking COVID pretty seriously. So we have limited opportunities to hang out with people. I don't want to be like my other friends and drop my long-term good and loyal friend completely by any means, but I also don't want to spend the next 20 years doing this. The only reason it's tolerable right now is because it's so cold and the idea of hanging out is infrequent at the moment and at the longest

45 minutes, but vaccines and warm weather are coming. What's the move here? Thanks. All right. Well, I mean, we all know where this is going, right? If the friend's wife keeps doing stuff like this, there's a breaking point. It sounds like you've already kind of gotten to the breaking point.

You know, if she had said that to your son without any prior history, it would have been bad enough. Because people don't like that kind of stuff. And even if somebody's like detached socially, you're like, why would you say that to a three-year-old? I'll never understand people with like little kids and just they don't get it. You're like, hey, he's a kid. Like, this is what kids do. They don't listen sometimes.

And reasoning and sitting down and be like, let's have a conversation, Brian, about your behavior. You know, he's three. You know, where's the fruit roll-ups? Fuck out of the way. So, yeah, I mean, it's tough because you're probably going to lose your friend with this. And I know you don't want to. I mean, you could just come out and straight up tell him. I mean, it's kind of surprising he hasn't been able to figure it

out now at this point. And then he's going to get mad at you and you're going to go, all right, whatever. But the anxiety that put together five paragraphs here is probably going to be gone. I mean, I hate to say this and be so final about it, but guys have been friends for a long time and then they'll not be friends again. And everybody just kind of keeps it moving. And you already said you have a bunch of other friends in the mix, but your wife doesn't want to be around her. You're inviting strangers over to hang out so that you can kind of muddle it up a bit. And that's not always going to work. And you could just tell them, hey, man, this is the deal.

If you want to hang out with me, I want to hang out with you. I care about you, but I'm just not doing that anymore. Your wife insults my wife. She said something to my kid. And look, that's going to be probably a game ender anyway, because at first he's going to get kind of mad. He's going to defend his wife because that's the other thing like whatever you've i've definitely i've definitely made the mistake a couple times where like if i was with a guy who's my boy and yet i knew the wife and i'd hint it like man i can't believe your wife did that and then the guy would just immediately had his wife's back i was like whoa okay wait a minute like never do that like never ever complain about a guy's wife to the guy unless he complains about her first and then don't agree with him a ton either because he might be just super fed up.

But he's going home to put his head on a pillow next to her every night. And you're not going to be putting your head on a pillow next to your buddy every night. All right? So the problem here is that this is probably going to be a game changing conversation if you ever have it. But I would do that. I think you at least owe that to them instead of just ignoring text, ignoring them. Cause that stuff happens too.

Like there'll be weird dynamics that I'll hear about where it's like, Oh, so-and-so doesn't reach out to so-and-so anymore. And you're like, I don't know like what's going on. Like, I don't know what's going on there either. Um,

but it kind of happens and believe it or not, instead of stressing about it, I know it sucks to say like, hey, it sucks. You're going to kind of lose your friend probably in the math here, but you'll be fine. And maybe he'll come around. Maybe divorce is on the table. Yeah.

Yeah. Actually, Kyle. Kyle, do you think framing her and potentially like framing her for cheating on her husband and then him going to divorce would be worth it in this case? Yeah. I mean, maybe. I mean, divorce is I don't know if the 50 stats still stand strong but it's like it's kind of a coin flip right um and yeah i feel bad my dad had a a friend like that childhood friend and i i just noticed she was like awful in every way and now they only go on uh guys trips once a year together they used to like come and we used to meet up in like Long Beach Island and they'd stay for like a day and a night. And now like they go camping once a year.

And, you know, it's a guy thing. But she was a real witch. I don't know. It sucks. What's the best way to frame somebody? I don't know. Theft, maybe. Never gotten into the framing game?

No, it seems complicated. Too many steps. I was more in the getting caught game rather than the framing game. Okay, all right. Well, there you go. Kyle closing out the podcast today. Please subscribe, rate, review

the Ryan Russillo Podcast, Spotify, and Ringer Network, and we'll talk to you Friday. Thank you.