The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Russell Wilson and NFL QB Desperation. Plus, a Big Picture Luka Chat With ‘The Wonder Boy’ Author Tim MacMahon.

Episode Date: March 27, 2025

Russillo starts the pod by examining how Russell Wilson will fit with the Giants and the landscape of backup QBs in the NFL (0:40). Then, Tim MacMahon comes on to share more information about the Luka trade, including Nico Harrison’s relationship with Kobe and Rob Pelinka, what really scared the Mavs, and the role that Mark Cuban played (16:49). Plus, Life Advice with Ceruti and Kyle (56:26)! Am I mooching off my in-laws? Check us out on YouTube for exclusive clips, livestreams, and more at https://www.youtube.com/@RyenRussilloPodcast. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Host: Ryen Russillo Guest: Tim MacMahon Producers: Steve Ceruti, Kyle Crichton, Mike Wargon, and Jonathan Frias Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On today's episode of the podcast, we're going to start just talking a little bit about the Russell Wilson contract, what it means, concerns I have for the Giants, and the Giants signing backups. And really, should you be doing that? Because there aren't a lot of backups to pick from. So the depth there at least is good for New York. We'll look at the backup market in general. The Wonder Boy, Luca Doncic, the book is out this week.

The author Tim McMahon will go over all of the prequel stuff to how this trade actually happened and what we hear a retort from Brian Winnhorst on their podcast and life advice. It's March, it's 2025. Where is your backup quarterback awareness for the NFL? Mine is locked in right now. I was looking at a list the other day and I was like, man, that list seems bleak.

Still a few moves to be made. I don't know if it's just in the moment going, that doesn't look good. Where if I did the exercise every single March, every single year, I'd be like, that doesn't look good. But this just feels bad. We're going to get to some of the backup quarterback options here in a second. But let's start with a starter, I guess, and that's Russell Wilson to your New York

Giants. So the deal was first reported as one year, 21 million. That's not going to happen. It's 10 and a half million guaranteed. The incentives are going to make them a few million more if he plays every game, if he wins a bunch of games. But to make the full 21, the stuff that I was looking at this morning, again, a lot of this stuff is very misleading on the headline. It looks good for the agent. It looks good for the player. Be like, hey, 20 million for Russ. Be like, yep. He would have

to win, I think, like every game and then make the playoffs. And if you go undefeated, chances are you're going to be in the playoffs. So clearly he's gonna make a few million more. I would imagine he is the starter based on him deciding to sign there, even though James Winston was just signed for two years and like 8 million base. So when you just look at the numbers, you're like, okay, Wilson clearly the priority.

And then still the scenario of whether or not the Giants would take a quarterback with their pick at the top of the first round. So why would the Giants do this? Because I've seen a couple different theories and let's try to explore all of them. Is it because of the lack of quarterback depth around the league? Because it feels like every year a couple guys get hurt, there's a very repeated talking point of there's just not enough quarterbacks, right? There's just not enough quarterback. I just feel like right now and then coming off of the anticipation. So I shouldn't say coming off of this draft because it hasn't actually

happened, but we already know like this is not the greatest quarterback draft, the depth of actually guys who are going to be taken. It's just not the same as a lot of other years. So are we seeing teams more desperate to sign some names to become a backup or in this case, the Giants quarterback rumor, it's like, let's just bring somebody in here at least at one point from a talent perspective, we'd like to flamed out somewhere else as a first round pick or Russell Wilson, who, you know, let's get to the debate on who he is right now. At least there's something there as Eric Mangini told me once, we was talking about, I think it was Matt Castle. We were sitting there on the show and we were thinking about different quarterback options. And he said something that I'll never forget. Mangini was

like, you know, at the very least when you're desperate, the tiebreaker is has this guy actually ever done it before? And for Wilson, we know the resume, even if it's heading in the wrong direction. So the old saying goes, because right now the Giants have two quarterbacks and with the draft they could have three. If you have two quarterbacks, you have zero. It's a really clever line.

It's also kind of stupid because I'd rather have two than zero. I think all of us would rather that. So we understand the dynamic of having to change your mind all the time. The Rob Johnson, Doug Flutie thing was actually bad for the bill. So it was bad ultimately when they made their final decision, but you get the point. Like there's just a lot of extra stuff.

Like I remember having a debate with somebody about if you had a couple top 10 picks, should you just take two quarterbacks? That way you have a better chance of getting it right, considering the burnout rate of these guys that are taking to the first round. It's like, I understand the math part of that, but the reality is, is all of a sudden you're bringing in an unprecedented dynamic

of having two top 10 picks or two first round picks of any team were actually to ever do this. Like, yeah, we're breaking camp, these guys are splitting reps and may the best man win. And the chances are one guy is absolutely not built for that. And you've already fucked up his career before it even started. So Wilson, um, he's limited, right? He's limited to where he can throw.

He's limited on what I think offensive coordinators trust him with. He is somebody that physically it would make sense that he's not the dynamic athlete that he was before, the guy that could keep plays alive when it looked like they were about to die. He would find ways to complete passes on third down. I used to just love him where it was like, everything looks like it's done and now you have to figure out a way to make something up here and I thought he was like one of the best in the game at doing it.

It's been a long time since we've seen that consistently delivered on Sundays. The Steelers slide is not all on him. I think that was unfair. You know, whether it was Pickens missing game or the defense falling apart, you know, Pittsburgh at one point was 10 and three and then we had to start talking about them as a team that could win the AFC.

And then it becomes like dismissive. Like, why can't the Steelers do it? Like, look at the history. Look at the defense. Look at, I don't know. Well, we look at the rest of the AFC. And considering what the rest of the landscape looked like and the quarterbacks that Pittsburgh was going to have to go through with Rosa Wilson taking over for fields. A very honest conversation was, yeah, that would seem to be a huge surprise despite the 10 and 3 record and the defensive numbers they were putting up. But the slide wasn't just on Wilson,

even though it played out that way because that's what happens with quarterbacks all the time. Think about it. Through 10 games, they were number two in opponents points per game. They were giving up 16 a game. The next eight, including the playoffs, they gave up 26.6 points per game. So they're giving up almost like they actually have more than 10 points per game over that stretch. And somehow that was all Wilson's fault. If you think about Wilson and where he is in the market, I think it's always a good reminder that the NFL, the people who make these personnel decisions, tell us what the league thinks about who a player is at this stage of his career. Wilson was available cheap last year for Pittsburgh, but it wasn't like somebody said,

hey, let's do some kind of long-term thing here. We'll give you short money in the first year because all the money's coming in from Denver. He made 38 million from Denver last season, so that's why he was basically free for Pittsburgh. But it wasn't like there was a bunch of teams going, oh my God, I can't believe this guy's available and he's going to be free the first year, but let's make sure can't believe this guy's available and he's gonna be free the first year, but let's make sure we have some team protections because we think he's gonna be really good. That didn't happen.

And then it's happening all over again. And the fact that it's based for one year at 10 million from the Giants, again, the NFL is telling you, we think this guy's done. So the question for the Giants here, cause I have concerns is, are the Giants the last team to know that it's over for Wilson? And over in the sense that, not that he can't play

or shouldn't be on a team, because again, I think it's worth repeating, a lot of the stuff that was talked about with him and how much was his fault and how much blame we should have put on him for that slide. I don't know. I mean, look, I didn't love all of it either, but it was really unfair. I thought it was really, really unfair because

I think there's just so many unbelievably stubborn Justin Fields fans out there. But you know, look, the Giants aren't whatever you think of the Giants. And I know a lot of people like to make fun of Joe Shane in the front office and say these guys are morons after Saquon Barkley has this historic year with the Eagles. But the point stands. The decision was about the Giants needing Saquon Barkley and needing to invest that kind of money in a running back when the rest of the team, they probably weren't gonna do that much

because they were kind of taking a gap year here with Daniel Jones because they'd already paid him all this money. It felt like kind of a wash year for the Giants and they were making decisions that way. And as much as Saquon was one of the most impressive single offensive stories in the entire league this year, it just didn't really make a lot of sense for the Giants. So

it's easy to make fun of them, appoint and laugh and whatever you want to do, but it felt a lot like a guy who can't pay his rent buying an expensive watch if the Giants are gonna pay Saquon Barkley a ton of money at a position that you probably shouldn't be spending a ton of money on if you don't think the rest of the team is gonna be that good, even though there's a lot of people on this roster I actually really like. But I don't think Saquon was gonna make the difference and certainly it was a little bit different him running behind the team is going to be that good, even though there's a lot of people on this roster I actually really like. But I don't think Saquon was going to make the difference. And certainly it was a little bit different him running behind the Eagles offensive line

than the Giants. So are the Giants the last to know about Russell Wilson or are they, again, looking around at this position going, well, we bring in Winston, we bring in Wilson, and on top of everything else, we may draft somebody. So at a position that may have the worst depth that we've seen in years, do we have a bunch of different options? And if you wanna criticize that and say, well, what kind of QB room is that?

You're not wrong, but I'm just trying to understand why they would do some of these things with declining players. Concern number two is Russ in New York. So I think he's toned it down quite a bit since the Sean Payton year in Denver. I think the first year when he felt like he was finally free and was going to be the full version of Russell Wilson, it was probably the peak annoying. Um, if you like it, you are a better man than I am.

Um, but clearly Payton hated it immediately. There was going to be some kind of like reset on what Russell Wilson was allowed to do, what he was gonna be allowed to be, I don't know. Look, it was kind of like man now, Broncos country, let's ride, but it got annoying. And it's always going to be a little weird, it's always going to be a little annoying with him.

That's just the Russell Wilson experience, all right? But I did think this was really interesting because I think about him being in New York and wondering is this kind of a fulfillment of something that he had talked about but not talked about years ago. You remember back in, it's February of 21, I'm bringing up the story now, headline,

quarterback Russell Wilson hasn't demanded a trade from Seahawks agent set. Um, Mark Rogers tells ESPN Adam Schefter on Thursday. Roger said Wilson has told the Seahawks that he wants to play in Seattle, but if a trade were considered, the only teams he would go to are the Dallas Cowboys, New Orleans Saints, Las Vegas Raiders and Chicago Bears, which was really one of the weirdest stories ever. It's like, we're not demanding a trade, but,

but these cities would make sense. And if you talk to enough people, it'd be like, okay, what specifically is it about those cities? And I think a lot of it had to do with the full Russell and his wife experience, essentially being like which markets would make the most sense for both of them. And clearly like New York, there's a page six article already today about their first night in New York City. So I think it has a lot to do with wanting to be in New York and whatever the next chapter is for this couple. Yeah, I think that's like a huge priority, which not like saying, hey, don't go out, don't be famous. But if I'm running a football team, that's kind of make me a little worried about the whole thing. Like I said, there's just always gonna be a little extra stuff that isn't great.

It's like, hey, is this gonna be about football every week or is this gonna be about maximizing your celebrity? And I think if we're all being a little honest, it's probably a mix. Concern number three, the locker room's gonna like Jameis Moore, just like Pittsburgh like fields more. I think he's an unrelatable dude. And to have Winston in there who thought he was probably going to be the starter. And then this Wilson deal happens.

I don't know if Winston's a locker room politician. I think he just might be really likable in a country way that relates to way more football players on a 53 man roster. And then on top of that, like what you draft Shadr standards at number three? I kind of want this to happen because you're gonna have some strong personalities and is that the best thing for rookie quarterback if you decide to go down that road?

Who knows, maybe they trade out of the pick and then try to add some more picks. So I think the last part of this is, last year was a gap year with Daniel Jones. They were hoping maybe like one more, you wanna talk about the all time tryout for quarterback. It's gonna be tough to break the Daniel Jones experiment record.

And maybe the positive is, is after knowing like this season's kind of lost with Jones, because it went more likely, and more, it ended up going the way more people thought it would go than all of a sudden this miraculous turnaround. If you drafted QB, now I guess you have three options, which gets back to the original line of like, how many options do you really have, even though I think the line is

clever and pretty misleading. Maybe it has to do with the backups. And that's to do with the backups. And that's where we started this conversation. If you look at the backups in this league, God, this feels like it's worse than before. I mean, there was a tweet the other day where somebody was ranking them. They had Zach Wilson third, which I think that feels a little high, but Miami actually was proactive about this. With two is injury history, knowing, okay, you really need somebody you can kind

of trust if you want to get like kind of like the Jacoby Bursette thing in Arizona. Like if Jacoby has to play for a month, if Kyler gets hurt and Kyler was, you know, much better last year than all of the ups and downs stuff that we've seen from him health wise, but Kyler for the most part stayed healthy. The expectation is he's probably going to miss some time. If Bursette has to play for a month, you at least feel like you have a chance.

Zach Wilson has the second worst passer rating of any active quarterback with 15 or more starts. And the Dolphins were like, we got him. You have Garoppolo back in LA. Shanahan and San Francisco wanted Mac Jones. If they were like, sweet, Cooper Rush goes to Baltimore. Teddy Bridgewater's in Detroit. You know, Stidham got a two year deal with Denver

to keep him there. I know Kirk Cousins is like the best backup, but that's kind of weird, but maybe that's why Atlanta's gonna be stubborn and hang on for a little while. I mean, I know everybody loves Joe Milton videos. I like Todd Rod Taylor. Todd Rod Taylor was ranked seventh on one list.

He should be, like I miss Gardner Midshoe, you know? Spencer Rattler the man now, is Malik Willis the dude? Or is this how it is a bunch of different years? But I think that's kind of what it is, man. Like there's not a lot of depth in the position, but the question for the giants is do you have a ton of depth and no starter? The Ryan Roussela podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. It's the final stretch of the NBA season.

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and to join today, make every moment more with FanDuel, official sports betting partner of the NBA. Must be 21 and older in present select states or 18 plus in present in DC. First online real money wager only $5 first deposit required. A bonus issued is non-retributable bonus bets which expire seven days after a seat. Restrictions apply. See terms at Sportsbook.FanDuel.com. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER, visit rg-help.com. The book is out now and the timing is perfect. The wonder boy, Luca Doncic, and the author Tim McMahon, joins us now, Tim, from ESPN and also the neutral corner on the Hoop Collective podcast

with Brian Windhorst and Tim Vontemps. What's up, man? It's good to see you. Howdy, partner. I appreciate you having me. Neutral corner, I don't know. I think I'm more of the instigator. I enjoy when those guys spar a little bit.

And frankly, Bontemps is an inviting punching bag. I enjoy the pod. I mean, it's one of the few that I consistently am like always checking in on. Just because I think when you do the job, especially three pods a week, you're like, okay, I've done what I've, I don't know that I wanna listen to anybody else talking about the same things

that I just get done talking with. But look, you guys have all covered the league a long time. You had perspective that I certainly can't always add. And look, you're the guy that I wanted to hear from when the Luca trade went down and perfect timing, you're writing a book about him. So there's a bunch of different ways I could go, but I guess I don't want to do a ton of MAVs history as much as I want to get into the Luka timeline. Because I was reading the final chapter that was added to it. And it's funny as I'm reading it, it's like, okay, here's another calf strain and this is calf strain number four and this one's going to be even worse.

And now there's a medical team situation where his group is fired but then the new group won't share MRIs with the team. So if you're laying out the timeline of this massive disconnect to further explain how we got here in NECO trading him to the Lakers but then ultimately like every time I start understanding like oh okay this makes a little bit then it's like yeah I still can't believe they did this. So let's go back to when you think the disconnect first started. So honestly, and look, like obviously

the conditioning has always been a thing, a concern with Luke, even back before the draft. But in terms of the disconnect with the Mavericks organization, I think a massive thing that happened that was under the radar at the time, and I'm gonna say this and people will be like, really? But when they fired Casey Smith,

who was one of the most respected people entirely in the athletic training field, he was the Mavericks head athletic trainer for years and years and years, became, oversaw that group, the health and performance group as part of the front office. He was a critical, critical part of the culture of the Mavericks, of the fabric of the Mavericks. He was there for 20 years. He's one of Dirk Nowitzki's best

friends, was tight with Jason Kibb. He's now working for the New York Knicks. Not a coincidence. Jalen Brunson loved him. So did Luca. And that happened in August, 2023. And I reported at the time he was reassigned to sit at home and twiddle his thumbs for the final year of his contract. I reported it then, but didn't really dive into it because I was like, okay, I think this is going to be a big thing. Let's see, it's going to be part of a bigger story. Let's see how it develops. Well, and then they went to the finals, right? So it's see, it's going to be part of a bigger story. Let's see how it develops. Well, and then they went to the finals, right? So it's like, well, I guess it didn't have major immediate ramifications. Then Nico also fired their longtime strength coach, Jeremy Olsoppel, their longtime manual

therapist, massage therapist, Casey Spangler. Again, all people who predated Luca in Dallas, all people who had great relationships with Luca in Dallas, all people who were part of him making this massive cultural transition from Europe as a teenager to not just America and Dallas, but to the NBA, all inner circle people for him who he liked, but more importantly, he respected, he trusted. And then Nico brought in, you know, people who were referred to around the Mavericks as Nico's guys. And Luca didn't know them, didn't particularly like them, didn't trust them.

Now Luca does have his own body team, which started last year, but just the working rule, and that's not unusual, right? You know that, like for a superstar to have his own guys, whether it's a massage therapist, strength coach, physical therapist, whatever, like a lot of these superstars have these body teams. Often they're good working relationships with the teams, with the franchise. That wasn't the case this year. And that was part of the lead up to this trade. And then, obviously, the fourth calf strain in a 28-month span, Nico certainly was frustrated feeling like, hey, you're not taking care

of your body. You're not putting it into work. You're not doing the preparation. This is kind of what happens. You know, Lucas side would say, well, we rushed back from the calf strain and training camp that by the way you reported is a contusion to get ready and then rushed back from a heel bruise just before Christmas was playing on our tippy toes or on his tippy toes. And yeah, stuff happens. It's unfortunate. Whatever side you want to take, this all leads to just Nico being so frustrated feeling like we can't invest in this guy, can't invest the super max deal and trading them while he really only got one bid.

I mean, he didn't all, yeah, like flat out only got one bid. So you gave up on this generational talent who was at the time 25, about turn 26. And people I've talked to around the league, there's two camps. One, you just can't give up on that kind of a talent unless you've got the proverbial gun to your head. You have to trade them, which was not the case here. Two, there are people who say, you just can't give up on that kind of a talent unless you've got the proverbial gun to your head. You have to trade them, which was not the case here. Two, there are people who say, you know what? I get wanting to get out of the lucre business because of these concerns, but you have to maximize the return.

And I have not talked to a single person outside of the Mavericks organization who feels like Dallas did that. Do you think that Nico, it's described as, I don't know if obsession of Kobe is fair, if you wanted to say admiration of Kobe, but the fact that Nico was so tight with Kobe, the Palinko relationship that I do wanna get to here. Was Nico holding, sometimes the Kobe mythology though, can be, I can find personally annoying

as if he's the only player who was ever in the gym early. Like he's just, you know, like it was him and then everybody else was behind him and when it came to work ethic. But was that something that made Nico pursue like an unobtainable story for Luca? Like did that get in the way of his evaluation? It's certainly the standard for Nico, right?

And Nico had relationships with a lot of guys over the years at Nike. None like he did with Kobe. I mean, he worked his way up the ranks at Nike in large part by being Kobe's guy and then working up from there. And like, look, when Kyrie tore his ACL about a month after the trade, Nico puts out a statement and he references Kobe in the statement talking about, you know, I've brazen Kyrie's work

ethic, but bringing up Kobe as the comparison. And Nico said, you know, I've lived it. So yes, there is, is this relationship that Nico had with Kobe, basically his, that's his vision of the superstar. That's his vision of a face of the franchise. That's his standard, high standard for work ethic. And you know, listen, Luca doesn't fit into that mold. Like Luca does enjoy to have a postgame brew-ski or two-ski or six-ski. You know, like Luca, I mean, you know, the man is going to eat steak and potatoes and

the weight fluctuates and, you know, all these kinds of things. He's a five-time first team all-M NBA selection who's yet to hit his prime years. He averaged 34, 10, and nine, led the league in scoring, led the Mavs to the finals, while by the way, playing the most minutes over the regular season and playoffs of anybody in the NBA. And, you know, honestly, he had Kobe's stamp of approval. You know, I mean, sadly, the last NBA game that Kobe attended was courtside at Staples Center then. And yes, that's the scene where he's

famously started talking some trash and still being anyone. Luke was about to end down the ball. Luca turns around and it's Kobe, you know, with his daughter, with Gigi. And Gigi's favorite player was Luka Donjic. Kobe brought his daughter to the game to see Luka. You know, Kobe and Luka had a moment after the game and I mean, Kobe loved the kids game. Now, look, I obviously he wasn't with him on a day to day basis evaluating the work ethic. But again, Luke is not the first superstar who's had a healthy appetite and who maybe didn't enjoy the rigorous, mundane preparation details and who would have an adult beverage or three or four. So the production to me,

that kind of production gives a guy a lot of leeway, but again, Nico's bet is that the body's gonna break down in his prime and he feared giving him the super max and he punted on him, I would say prematurely. So the other part of this is the relationship with Polinka. And this is the thing that I will forever be fascinated with. It's just the, those GM moments, you know, like the rest of us who've never done it,

who talk about it nonstop, like, oh, this guy should have done this. He should have done this. And it's like, man, I just wonder what it would be like to be in that position. It's like, you have to say yes or no to this like team altering thing. And you know, normally it would be an to be in that position. It's like, you have to say yes or no to this like team altering thing. And, you know, normally it would be an easy answer

for something like this, but because he's so close with Polinka, you have to think if there's years of frustration since Nico first entered the building with Luca, like he's sharing that with Polinka, you know? And there's other- It wasn't a secret around the league, I'll say that. Luca's weight fluctuates was not some kind of like,

oh really, gee whiz, who would have ever known? But I guess once it's finally addressed at a hotel in Dallas when the Lakers are in town and it's gone from I want AD to would you consider AD for Luca, Polinka is operating from a position of strength based on the information. There's just no way over the course of those years that, you know, if you're, all of these 30 guys are competing with each other. There's no way that you're not like, and that kind of gets into the, how much can you actually talk? Which relationships actually are friendships? You know,

really, maybe none of them should be friendships, but there has to be part of Polinka that's like, okay, he is, he's like real about this. He's upset. And then of course, Plink is saying, well, if we have to keep it a secret, then as you point out in the book, I can't know if he'll do an extension with us, which I think is like the funniest thing.

So now I don't have to pay as much. And the whole thing, it just feels like Nico, that relationship worked Nico when we're actually talking about the price paid for somebody like Luca. Yeah, I would certainly agree with that. And look, that relationship obviously also goes back to the relationship with Kobe.

Rob Polenko is Kobe's longtime agent. Nico was his right-hand man. And Nike, those three traveled the world together, got to have a real bond. And Nico could trust Polinka to keep things secret. Of course, was it in Polinka's best interest to keep things secret? Absolutely. And then he could use the card that you just mentioned. Hey, I can't check with Bill Duffy, Lucas Agin. Well, listen, if I can't call Duff, I mean, how do I know that he'll want to stick around to play in sunny Southern California for the most glamorous franchise in NBA history. While one of his good buddies is coaching the team.

I mean, gee whiz, could the Lakers, like, how are we, like, can the Lakers attract talent to play with them? It's always been so difficult. Like, geez, we're taking such a risk here. And he walked away with a 2031 pick in his pocket, with a 2030 swap in his pocket. Dalton Connect wasn't part of the deal. You know, you, you, you, whatever you want to say. Um, so yeah, Alinka keeping it secret, Nika wanted to do it because he felt like he had to blindside Luca and has a right in the book after six years of the Mavericks kissing Lucas,

but he did get shanked in the back. It's absolutely what happened here. Felt like he had to blindside Luca, felt like he had a blindside Bill Duffy. And I would argue that it worked against him. And you know, the other thing is, I think the fear of the supermax was, or logic was extremely flawed logic. Nico talking about it's going to be a tumultuous summer. Number one, like Luca was signing the Supermax and Nico knew that. Luca was about to close on his forever home in Dallas. And that was known throughout the organization.

He was not going to turn down the biggest contract in NBA history. There were teams that were lining up just in case, but Luca was staying in Dallas. They feared it as an investment, which to me is how, like even if you think the body's going to break down, look what Kevin Durant got in the trademark it in this thirties after he'd had an Achilles and missed a whole bunch of games for other injuries with the nets. If you have Luca locked up on a long-term deal, that means you've got to stick in the relationship for another year and a half.

You know, you've got to deal with having, uh, you know, perennial MVP cannon on your roster for another season and a half. Um, and you know, the things that you don't like about them, but could you imagine if in the summer of what it would be 2026, the Mavericks basically announced to Lee, hey, we're trading Luka before training camp. So what kind of bidding war do you think would have started after that? Yeah, in a league where you hope damaged goods,

not always number one option, is this guy gonna have 30 or zero in a playoff game, Paul George, when you hope that he takes your 200 million, then you do a super max for Luca. Think about the deals where teams have cap space and they're like, man, maybe we can get Thaddeus Young on a three-year deal. That's the part where I can't understand somebody who spent a life in basketball, even if more of it was on the outside. But Nico had had

a really good track record. And for you to start getting cute with what you want to do, it's like, no, you hope he wants the Supermax. And even if he blew out an ACL, you'd still be able to trade Luca during the Supermax to another team and recoup some of that because he'd still be south of 30. It just, it felt really personal. Like I can't help but, like I'll never stop thinking how I felt when I saw Michael Finley grab the beer from Luca and I don't know Michael Finley. Obviously he was an awesome player. It seems like he has a really like, you know,

good reputation as a guy who takes shit really seriously. But I thought he was embarrassing his guy there. And then I didn't understand if Finley was doing it so that it made Michael Finley look like the winner or it's like, look how serious I'm taking this. And you can tell me I'm totally wrong, but I thought that moment, it bothered me because I was like, why would you even allow,

like if you don't want him to do this, fine. Maybe he didn't know the camera was there. That seems hard to believe. Well, no, because it was one guy with a cell phone, right? Okay. So like, I, yeah, I, I don't know if he saw the cell phone or not. I think it was just, I think that that was like, it's a moment that was, I, frankly, it was funny at the time. And then now in hindsight, it's like, Oh,

but I think people might be making too much of that moment. I haven't actually talked to, to Finn about it. oh, but I think people might be making too much of that moment. I haven't actually talked to to Finn about it. But I think it was just more of like, hey, not in the hallway, man. You know, like, hey, you know, like, don't don't be drinking a beer out here for everybody. See, like behind closed doors. Cool. Not not in the hallway. That was my read on it, at least. I don't taking it away from them, though.

A man taking another man's beer away like that to prove some kind of point. Listen, I mean- I think that's a little weird. Well, especially because Luca is an adopted Texan and you know, like, you know, you don't take a man's beer out of his hand in Texas. That's for damn sure.

But I do believe that Michael Finley was a strong supporter of Luca from start to finish. I would say that. I would believe that Michael Finley was a strong supporter of Luca from start to finish. I would say that. I would say that. Okay, that's good. I'm glad we got that out there. Let's talk about new ownership.

We all know a new ownership syndrome is a real thing and it's almost unavoidable the first 12 to 18 months. You are guaranteed to do something really stupid. And now we've got the stepson, Patrick, being the face of this whole thing. I think you pointed out perfectly in the book for him to use, like, it was very clear to basketball people that you're saying Luca does not meet the standard of what the Dallas Mavericks expect. Does not meet the standard of a Jordan, of a bird, of a Shaq, Shaq being the

worst example of somebody who brought it every day, lunch pail, put in all the work, all the off season stuff. And look, you even go in on the Bird Jordan thing, you wanna talk about the stuff away from the facility where it's like these guys are not super locked in. I think Patrick has had a really good run and maybe he's brilliant in his field, but he thought he could get away

with the tech Zoom conference buzzwords of this space and maximizing that for basketball people when you're using those analogies, you just kind of, it concerns your fan base to being like, do we have an absolute fraud imposter? Well, and I just don't think the guy knows much about basketball. And there's this like all these conspiracy theories. Oh, this is a, you know, the management demand of this because they're trying to depress the value of the franchise to move to Vegas.

Like this is QAnon whack job stuff. Like, no, that's not what happened. Nico Harrison managed up, right? Nico Harrison convinced Patrick Dumont, a guy who is a year in to having control of an NBA franchise, that, hey, we've got to get rid of this guy. You know, Luca doesn't work hard. Luca's bad for the culture. Supermax would be a terrible investment. He convinced Dumont of that. And he'd earned Dumont's trust because listen, the moves that Nico made before the deadline last year, which by the way, at the time it wasn't like people were talking about the

Mavs made great moves around the league. There was a lot of questions about them, but Daniel Gaffer and PJ Washington ended up being critical pieces to a team that caught fire down the stretch of the regular season and made a finals run. So, Nico had built up some credibility, a lot of credibility, I would say, with Patrick Dumont based on the success of his first transaction cycle with Dumont and control of the team. But I mean, Dumont doesn't know much about basketball. That's pretty clear. He also doesn't have like, he doesn't have a great feel for public speaking. The problem is though, it's because everything has worked out for

him. Like I know who these guys are. He's like, oh, I can just go up on the stage and dazzle them. And you're like, dude, if you don't grow up with this, like you can't, you can't cliff notes the NBA world in front of NBA people and pull it off. Like maybe you can at some of these other business things, but like, yeah, I'm sorry I interrupted, but like, it's unbelievable to think like, yeah, I can just go up here and put on a suit and they'll figure like, I got this. Sure. And when he, when he made those comments, we're talking about, it was an interview with Brad Townsend of Dallas morning news. It was the day after the Anthony Davis' abbreviated Mavericks debut. So that the first home game following

trade when there was that huge protest outside the arena, you know, and sell the team, F Niko, even said some nasty things about me, which wasn't very nice. One of them was don't buy the book, which I do appreciate the free publicity. But anyways, that protest was held in the shadows of a statue of a gentleman named Dirk Nowitzki. And if you need to check on the spelling, the street right there is Nowitzki Way, right? And on that statue, 21 letters summing up 21 seasons, man, you know, the man's game, loyalty never fades away. If you're going to start naming NBA legends who are like the epitome of discipline and hard work and your target audience is a Dallas fan base and you leave Dirk out of

that, oh my God, it was honestly one of the worst PR moves I've ever seen in my life. Yeah. Cuban's role in this, because as you recently pointed out on a pod, it was being sold to everybody that Cuban was still in charge. As he was saying those things,

other teams were like, why does everybody just keep rolling with this? Not because they felt like, hey, we need to be, they were just fascinated with the assumption, which was a bad one, that, okay, I've given up majority position of this team, but I'm still gonna be in charge of these decisions. I mean, I don't know.

That's not usually how it works out. Can you give us better insight into why it was handled that way and why Cuban was willing to sell something that clearly wasn't going to be true very soon? Well, Cubans claim at this point is that they had a gentleman's agreement that wasn't followed through on. Listen, with Cuban, you

always have to... One of my favorite Jerry Jones sayings, I call them jerryisms, is just because I say it doesn't make it so. Well, just because Cuban says it doesn't make it so. So you never know if what he's telling you is the truth. So I don't know if there was a gentleman's agreement that they just kind of backed out on. I don't know if he's telling you the truth. So I don't know if there was a gentleman's agreement that they just kind of backed out on. I don't know if Cuban was completely full of crap when he was telling everybody, hey, they're real estate people. I'm a basketball person.

I'm running basketball. Or he was trying to speak something into existence. But what I do know is that as the ink dried on that deal, Cuban was done calling shots for basketball. Cuban did not call shots going into the trade deadline. And frankly, at this point, Cuban has no more influence on personnel decisions than any other rich dude who has court-side season tickets.

He got a five minute heads up via text from Nico that this trade's going down. Try to talk him out of it too late. He got a phone call from Dumont after, like after it was over. And I was told that was about a two minute phone call, you know, like, great. So thanks for touching base. Like the hell do you want to talk about?

So this never happens. If Cuban doesn't give up the majority share of the franchise. I mean, honestly, if Nika would have gone to Cuban when he was running the show and said, hey, I'm negotiating a trade for Luka, I think it would have been a fireball offense. Cubans the first five and a half years of Luka's career that Cuban was calling shots, Cubans top priority was doing everything in his power to make Luca as happy as possible. And I would say rightfully so. I don't think the execution was always the smoothest, but I think when you get that kind of a franchise

player, when you get that kind of a prodigy, like, yes, they've got to be the priority. Everything does revolve around them. That's just reality in the NBA. And that took a sudden shift this summer. You have that in the book where Cuban tries to talk Nico out of it. Is there anything more on that brief conversation you can share with us? I think it was just a text exchange.

And I don't know these specifics of it. It just, Cuban basis saying, what, you can't do this. And Niko saying, it's done. I don't think there was a whole lot of back and forth there. The book starts with, you know, just a reminder of what this world was gonna be for Luca, right?

19 years old, this insane profile of success in the Euro league and winning. And, you know, it's funny because I remember that draft watching him going, God, it goes slow, but it always works. It always works. And it did remind me of like very hardnish approach to possessions of, you know, it's going to go slow and it's like, but I'm gonna figure out a way and it's actually gonna still end up being

kind of the best look. But here's somebody coming to a foreign country, he'd never been to Texas, he steps foot, now it's this press conference, he's there with Jaylen Brunson, Donnie Nelson's like, you know, having his moment and this whole thing. And that, you know, there's always a concern when you've never seen as big and as special as he is

in all the video, right? Like it was pretty good chance he was gonna be a really nice player. But the fact that he could become the face of this franchise and on top, like my argument is always, hey, there's all these guys that score that have never done anything in the playoffs and we're still wondering who they can be.

And yet, Luca has the 22 run, more importantly, the 24 run. So whatever flaws you think you may have, it's not like this is a dude who can't get out of the first round in his first seven seasons. Like he's actually getting this team probably beyond what people had thought, especially the 22 team. And with completely different supporting cast.

Right, right. And so he is, you know, we can make it about rings, but like, Luca, it's not really about rings to this point. It would have been, you know, say he's ringless at 30, then we can do all the fair and sometimes unfair stuff that we do with the best players in the world. But the fact that he had delivered this way, embraced Dallas, embraced all of these things.

Did you see, I guess the best way to describe that for the audience here that hasn't read the book yet of just him actually exceeding every single part of like who can this guy be for the franchise? Well, and look, Luca was the most accomplished, decorated teenage prospect ever to come out of Europe. And you can argue he was also extremely mis-evaluated by the NBA. Three teams passed on this guy, right?

One of whom the Phoenix Suns had just hired Igor Kosciuszkow as their head coach. This is the guy who was the Slovenian national team coach when 17-year-old Luka is the co-star with Goran Dragic of a team that won Eurobasket. Slovenia has 2 million people. It's like if there's a tournament of all the states in America and Idaho wins it. Right? I mean, it's insane. And Igor had never been a head coach, wasn't coached there for very long, just one year.

They never asked his opinion. He finally goes to Robert Sarver and says, listen, man, I just got to get this off my chest so I can sleep. We've got a draft Luka. We've got this cap space, throw a big offer sheet on the table, get him Clint Capella, get him a rim run in center. Luka, Booker, Capella, get him a rim running center, Luca Booker Capella. That's our core we can build.

And it's like, thanks for your input. You'll coach the guys we give you. We're going with this guy who is from Arizona, Robert Sarver, the Arizona alum. Yeah, no, I'm taking the seven footer who is from Arizona. And like a lot of people did have the Andre in the morning draft. Then Vlade Balkan basketball legend had known Sasha Donchich for decades. Luca's dad. Um, one, I was told by a scout who was in the room that Vlade quote knew too much,

you know, that he knew, Hey, you know, Luca likes to have a good time that the discipline is not the best, all those sort of things, which frankly Sasha is kind of like the, I call him the Charles Barclay of Slovenia. You know, legendary, legendary. Legendary personality, yes. Likes to have a good time, you know. So like knew all that,

but then Ladi didn't think he was a superstar. Well, he'd take touches away from De'Aaron Fox. We don't want that. But then, Vlade didn't think he was a superstar. He'd take touches away from De'Aaron Fox. We don't want that. Marvin Bagley the third, Vlade said on draft night, is it better player and a better fit? Well, not sure about any of those, buddy. And by the way, Luca remembers last year Vlade was sitting courtside in Sacramento and after Luca iced a win, he's sneering over there. He's going back to the bench talking about that guy should have drafted me. That guy should have drafted me.

And then the Hawks, they had Luca a little bit above Trey Young on their board. But hey, if we can get an extra lottery pick out of it, okay, let's do it. And lo and behold, the Mavericks, who had an epic tank job that cost Cuban 600 grand when he said the quiet part out loud, then got booted back by the lottery gods. A couple of spots were able to move back up and get the guy who Donnie Nelson was absolutely pounding the table for, as he did Yannis when Cuban didn't listen in that draft. And maybe more importantly, in terms of Cuban's decision making, this gambling dude who'd been

consultant for him on the sly, oh, Bob Volgares, and he brought up Harden. That's exactly who he brought up. This guy's going to be an MVP candidate at some point relatively soon. And James Harden was the comp. And I do still think prime James Harden is the best comp for Luca. You can argue that Luca has surpassed that as a player already, but that's how Luca ended up.

In Dallas, again, went third in the draft, but was misadvised. People didn't think he could be a point guard on the NBA. People didn't think he could be a primary ball handler. I'm glad you talked about the conspiracy theory in the book and then shared a little here because it was so well done by somebody who looked like they'd had a little juice. And, uh, I had buddies, you know, reaching out being like, Hey, this is

probably what happened here. And I'm like, well, you don't, you live in Vermont and you, you don't know anything about the NBA. So I don't know that your approval is what he's looking for. I go the idea that they would major league this thing so that they can move to Vegas and then leave Dallas without an NBA franchise doesn't seem to make a ton of sense. The fact that they wouldn't want an expansion fee

from a new group on the Vegas team and then who the 32nd team ends up being. Now, if you wanna say, hey, maybe they were gonna say, well, the expansion fee we're gonna have Dallas, and then we get to go to Vegas because of all of our business interests. It was a really, really well thought out, delivered conspiracy theory that again,

didn't make any sense. Because people didn't believe the reasoning for the Mavericks to make this trade. They couldn't wrap their minds around it. They were like, there has to be something more. Okay, the conditions are a problem. Like, Luka can be a little bit difficult. You just went to the finals with a guy leading the league and scoring an average and damn near a triple double.

And that's the thing. It wasn't about, with Luca, it wasn't about potential. He was proven. He was a proven perennial MVP candidate. It's not like, you know, you're training a 25 year old who, well, if he works on his conditioning, he has a chance to be one of the best players in the league. No, he's been one of the best players in the league despite conditioning issues. And he works on his conditioning only. Well, that's the thing that I was left with because when everyone is one way, right?

It's like imagine a scenario where Lucas so hurt that in four years, Nico goes, I was right. And the problem is, is that he could be right about that part. He could be right about the evaluation of Luca. He'll, it will, oh, it's malpractice for the execution on the business side of it. And so even if he ends up, you know, in that, I just love asking myself these questions where like, Hey, remember three years ago, everybody thought ends up, you know, in that, I just love asking myself these questions. We were like, hey, remember three years ago,

everybody thought this from, you know, is there something happening right now? Do you like imagine if this is the end of this story? And I think we all have to allow for it to happen, but it is consistently, there'll never be a moment where I feel like the execution of the business part of it is ever gonna be able to be defended. Well, you know, we talked about it. He didn't maximize the return simply by his own admission.

Honestly, his own, uh, he was very proud of keeping it top secret and nobody being, you know, other teams not knowing about it. You can't maximize the return and operate in that way. And look, like I almost feel bad for Anthony Davis because he is a top 75 all-time player who is still an absolutely dominant force, right? Like he, it ain't like he's some kind of scrub or something. I mean, he is a first ballot hall of famer. But if you're trading Luka because you're concerned about

durability, well, AD has durability concerns. Luka was hurt when the trade was made. So is AD. AD rushed back to play in that first home game. I've been told maybe due to some motivation of trying to, you know, at least not silence noise, but calm the noise. And boy, that first half, holy crap, was he good. I mean, he was dumb, but then he goes down in the third quarter and just got back on the floor. But Nico's, in Nico's own words, they created, and hey, biggest, most athletic front court in the NBA, if you got Kyrie, like they were going to have, they were going to be tough,

but Nico created a three to four year timeframe. And you gave up on a generational talent who is yet to hit his prime years, who was beloved by the fan base. Like, look, Luca has flaws, but don't don't tell Mavericks fans that they'll call you all kinds of mean things. So you give up on potentially decade, 12 year, 14 year runway for three to four years after you'd successfully built a contender around Luka. And in doing so, you gave up your draft capital. First round capital, 27, 28, 29, 30. You don't control any of it. And do the math in three to four years. Okay, let's get to 2028. Oklahoma City, they've got your swap rights. They gave you that pick last year

so you could get Daniel Gafford. 29, well, that's the Houston Ross Rockets pick because they suckered Brooklyn and they gave them a whole bunch of stuff, the Suns and that pick so Brooklyn could get their two years back. But that was from the Kyrie trade. Okay, again, good trade, but now that's the Rockets. 30, that's the San Antonio Spurs for facilitating the Grant Williams sign and trade which moved in, paying out. Okay, whatever. You built a contender around them. And now your three to four years run straight into when the credit card is due and the collectors are your closest geographic rivals. It was a great way to end, uh, end the book and look,

I would just tell people to check it out. Just came out this week. There's so much more in there. The Pershinga stuff is really fun. The Kyrie pursuit is great. Uh, and obviously, you know, just, uh, learning more about Luca, the wonder boy Tim McMahon final thought, because those of us that are hoop collective fans, are we going to hear a response from LeBron's best friend, Brian Whinhorst? I know LeBron, he never just spouts off. I'm sure he has evidence that Wendy ever uttered

such a comment ever in his entire life. LeBron's head coach was a damn good podcast runner up. If you're aware of that JJ Rick, a damn good podcast. There's a clip floating around of Wendy's appearance on Old Man in Three with JJ Reddick last year where Wendy actually said, I don't think LeBron likes me. So I don't know. Is that like best friend I don't think he likes me? I don't know. Seems strange. Hello player though. All time great. I don't know where he was coming from on that one. He's dunked on a lot of dudes. I don't know why he felt the need to dunk on Wendy. Trey Lockerbie I'll tell you from personal experience, I think the first time I met Wendy when I'm in Bristol, and then I probably made the mistake with a lot of people,

like, oh, this guy got hired because he's like LeBron's guy. Winhorse would go out of his way to make sure that you knew that it was like, not the case in the most genuine way ever, not trying to sell or distract, deflect, whatever. He would just be like, yeah, actually, you know, we're not really that tight.

He's like, I just happened to be on the beat. I covered it, I was plugged in. I'm sure the relationship was good, but you know, that relationship is impossible. That relationship, unless you were only going to be part of the propaganda machine, and I'm not even saying specific to LeBron, it is impossible to keep that relationship

smooth the entire time. And imagine like even working on this book with Luca, like does he like you? We're not working on this book on Luca. On Luca, right. We did not work together. And look, Luca and I, like, if you have to kiss somebody's butt,

regardless of circumstances to have a good relationship, as a reporter, that's just not gonna work out. Luca and like Mavericks, there's a lot of Mavericks fans, Luca fans that are mad that I wrote a book on them. Oh, you trashed him his whole career. I didn't trash him his whole career. I've written and talked a ton about what an incredible talent this guy is. I covered him fairly and accurately, brilliance and flaws.

And they, you know, the flaws can, you've read the book, all that stuff is represented in the book, but you know what? I'm glad that I don't regret any of my reporting on him. You know, the public confrontations we had are what they are. But can you imagine if I was just sunshine and daffodils throughout this whole book and then the trade happens and I got to rush in a last chapter, oh, my God, I'm going to be a great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, public confrontations we had or what they are. But can you imagine if I was just sunshine and daffodils throughout this whole book and then the trade happens and I got to rush in a last chapter. Oh, by the way, all this stuff had been building up.

You didn't read about in the first 18 chapters. So Hey man, congrats again on the release and all the work. And, uh, it was, it was cool to catch up here. So thanks. I really appreciate you having me man. Enjoy your work. You're a legend in this podcast field and it has been an honor to appear here. Well that was really nice. We can have you do my book but hopefully we'll be content. I'll work with you on that one. It won't be on you. Thanks buddy. See you. I appreciate it, adios amigos. I am liquid. So now you know what's possible. Let me tell you what's required.

The email address is lifeadvicerr at gmail.com for some of our older listeners. What's going on Kyle? Just normal stuff, normal stuff. Just a guy without a team in a tournament. Uh-huh. Are you a Duke fan, Saruti, growing up? It feels like an insult. Nothing against, I mean, just like, you know, it was a little bit of like a,

Hey, you, you seem like a Duke fan. It's like that time I told you that you seemed like a Rivian driver, which I do regret. Uh, but no, I was awesome by the way. Ryan did not like that. He did. He did not like that. He did. He did not like that. My buddy invested a bunch of money and he was stressed that I text him every time I

see one on the road. Wait, say that again. My buddy invested a bunch in Rivian and I don't know. There was a time when it was not going well, but everyone thought it was going to go well. I don't know where it is now. He hasn't been getting as much. Let's get an update. Yeah, I guess I could ask him.

Check the ticker. I don't know what he got in at, but I remember he was stressed it every day and every time He hasn't been complaining about it as much. Let's get an update. Yeah, I guess I could ask him. Check the ticker. I don't know what he got in at, but I remember he was stressed out every day. And every time I see him, I'd be like, dude, don't even worry. I just saw one on the road. It was a joke that I don't think he loved. Well, that doesn't seem very nice. Where are we at?

12.53 a share. Yeah, five years. Did it have some weird peak? Sure did. Whoa. That seems low, but. Yeah, it was, uh, five years ago. It was about 115 bucks a share. All right. I think they look good.

I regret the job too. No, look, I think they look pretty good. So it's nothing. I think somebody from Rivian even reached out to tell us to take it easy. But it wasn't really, I think, look, we've talked about what I want to rip from Yellowstone truck at some point in my life. I just can't fit it and I can't park it anywhere in LA.

And honestly, I would be dumb enough to buy it and then be like, I have nowhere to park it. And then I'd be like, sorry, kids can't get out. If I had kids, like I thought we were getting ice running a boat dually, a package deal. Just to get rid of both. I don't think I'd want to trailer my boat on a highway. I think that would scare the shit out of me.

Okay. Yeah. I don't start, but no, yeah, not a Duke fan. I know, I know. Did you hear Duke got mad about the white Lotus dad wearing the Duke shirt? I do, that's what I thought of. Whenever I'd see those memes of that guy

with the gun to his head and just the thing that jumps out is Duke. It's like, ah, they must not love that. I think things have gone well. Yeah, I think enough stuff has gone well for Duke. Yeah, you know that they'll be OK. Probably right. It applications are down.

Like you know we had to let a kid in from Maine. All right. Well, am I mooching off my weird vibe today? Weird vibe. Maybe it's because it's super early. 730 it's quiet in my yeah. All right, am I mooching off my weird vibe today? Weird vibe, maybe it's because it's super early. At 7.30 it's quiet in my, yeah. All right, you know, look, maybe something beautiful will come of this.

All right, am I mooching off my future in-laws? 33, five, nine and a half, 180, 225 bench, 305 squat, player comp, Luke Gridenauer. High IQ on the court, can hold my own against better players just average height and Athleticism I recently engaged my amazing fiancee's 26. Hey, and we just closed her first home together What do you think is the best age gap number just a quick? Get around the horn here If I don't know

Are you the same age cow as your well, she is like almost three years younger than me. Same. Your wife's three years younger than you, sir? Mm-hmm. I don't know why I thought you were the same age. For the weirdest, that's clearly on me. No one told me the wrong info or anything like that. But maybe I thought because like you both entered the PA program at the same time or something stupid, which is a dumb thing because it's not on me. No one told me the wrong info or anything like that. Maybe I thought because you both entered the PA program at the same time or something stupid,

which is a dumb thing because it's not like everybody's the same age. Yeah, I think I met her a few years in. She was, I mean, we would have never actually met in work. We met through work people essentially. But yeah, three years. I feel like three years is a good, is a reasonable gap. What's the second marriage age gap? Just kidding. It's more than three years. It's not the same age. I'll tell you that. All right.

Uh, here we go. Life's good. I make about 175 K a year and she makes 85 K and while we're financially comfortable, uh, my dilemma, her parents seem determined to make sure we never pay for anything when we're with them and I mean anything. Dinner, they got it. Golf with her dad, he won't even let me fake reach for my wallet. Vacations, we book our flights but they cover hotels, food and probably the air we breathe. They even loaned my fiancee 10 grand for a down payment because the down payment was

going to be all my money. Bought her a brand new $45,000 car last year and we are chipping in $40,000 for our impending wedding. Oh, they are chipping in 40 grand. This is awesome. And now they wanna buy us a new grill as a housewarming gift because apparently the 10K wasn't enough of a present.

Her parents are both in the late 50s, retired after very successful careers. Her dad owned a business that he sold and her mom was a chief executive at a decent sized company for many years. Maybe a CWO. They don't flaunt their wealth, but they're incredibly generous

and seem to generally enjoy taking care of their family. For context, I grew up in the middle class where my parents pinch pennies to raise three kids since college. I've never asked my parents for a dime, take pride in paying my own way. So every time I offer to cover anything, they brush me off of the play. Okay, thanks for offering. It sort of makes me feel like a dirtbag mooch and almost some shame warranted or not, I just can't help it. My fiance has an older sister and in my view, they've both

been very fortunate that their parents have always taken care of them. They paid for my fiance's undergrad, covered most of her master's degree. She has very little debt, and as mentioned, has never let her worry about big expenses. That said, she's not just coasting, she's worked through college, has a strong work ethic, currently holds two jobs, she's doing well in her career, will only continue to grow financially.

They've done an amazing job raising her. She's just been blessed with more financial support than I ever had. How would you guys handle this? Kyle, you wanna take the lead on this? Sure, I mean, you've gone through this in college, and I think everybody learns this in college, but a lot of your stories are just like,

you know, a light bulb goes off and you're like, oh, people have just grown up totally different ways and it's totally fine. And that's the, you know, the freshman guy in college who has the brand new Hummer and has like figured out a way to be able to drive it as a freshman, like it just happens. It doesn't make them a bad person.

You know, I think this is someone who you've married who's just grown up a different way. And the truth of it is, is like your parents who would probably be like, why is this guy always letting me pay even if they were doing that? Which you're saying that they, you know, they pinched pennies.

Her parents genuinely like this. This feels good to them. It maybe even feels not necessarily bad to them that you're always trying to pay, but it's like, this is what they want to use their money for. Clearly, they budgeted for enough and, you know, they want to use it for experiences with you guys and it feels good for them to be like,

oh, they got a new house that they gave your wife 10 grand for the down payment for. Also, we'd love for them to have a new grill. Like, this is all stuff that they gave your wife 10 grand for the down payment for. Also, we'd love for them to have a new grill. Like this is all stuff that they are enjoying doing. And I would say, you know, it's who cares if it's, it's not really an empty gesture when you reach for your wallet, although I know some people do it and they just do it a little slower than everyone else.

That's not what you're doing. So I think, yeah, so I think, I think keep doing that. And then with that knowledge, you might feel better about it if you just spent the money that you are clearly budgeting in your head for all these things. You're like, all right, when the check comes, I'm prepared to lose $300 and you don't. Maybe you just figure out a way to budget that money

into something for the future and build a little mother daughter for your next house because you clearly are gonna be the ones taking care of them. I think just find the good in this. I get that you were raised away that makes you feel bad about this, but your wife was raised away

where I guess this is expected. So I just say cut it down the middle and be apathetic or slightly happy about it. Don't feel bad about this. Yeah, I mean, I probably have two sets of parents who like to do this. And you could, as you said, Kyle, you could take the wallet out,

but it's never really going to actually matter the way I feel like I get around it or not get around it, but like at least pay it back is, you know, do nice things for them, make sure, you know, you're keeping up with the FaceTimes and you know, all the stuff with the kids and the stuff that's not super fun, but also it's, it's like, it's like a pay it forward thing. Like you're probably going to want to do that later in your life too. You wanna be in a position where you're spoiling your kids

and their- At least your wife is. Giving them better lives. Yeah. So I don't know, it's just part of the life cycle. You're gonna end up probably paying this back when you're in your 60s and whatever and retired and hopefully your financial situation

is good where you can do that. Maybe though, but I think some people just look at it as like after a certain age you're on your own even if the adult has made a ton of money. I mean it sounds like I think the best part of this is that because you grew up the way that you did you appreciate this so much. You've already told us that your wife, fiance, but future wife busts her ass. It's not like she's just sitting around. Like sometimes I think about what I would have been like had I been a trust fund guy in comparison to like the other trust fund guys. Like would I have been, I mean, I wasn't all that honestly, you could argue I acted like a trust fund guy without the trust fund for quite a while. Yeah.

Does this guy know who we are? Yeah, seriously. Like, what's he doing? I was just kind of chilling out for a little while, you know? You had a long semester. And it doesn't really matter. Like you can say, like this is where I just don't like putting everybody in the same category or everything,

but like I knew Trust Fund guys that had a job June after they graduated, you know, and that was it. New York City commute is on working my way up. Granted, those guys probably had a better entry situation than some of the other dudes. And then, you know, look, other guys, it was out to Jackson Hull, figure some things out. Like, what's he doing? He'd be like, I don't know, you've heard of this thing called kombucha? He says he's got, I don't know, he says he wants to bring it east.

I was like, all right, that seems, he's gonna be just a beverage guy now? Like, yeah, he knows the wholesalers. Really? Okay. He's also gonna check out some widespread shows, but yeah, this kombucha thing feels pretty real if you can get five, 10 grand lying around. No, the paying it forward thing, you're right, Saruti,

but again, kind of back to the original point, the parents may, there can be somebody who's completely taken care of by the in-laws and then when he has money and it's him out there with his daughter's fiance, it's like, I'm not doing shit for you guys. It's a complete philosophical approach. You may wanna say to the dad, be like, I appreciate all these dinners,

I appreciate the down payment, I appreciate the grill, but if you think I'm coming over and missing paddleboard to push your ass around 20 years from now, just what are you expecting in return? Um, look, there was, uh, there was a time, you know, again, during the broke years where you at least wanted the person who was paying for stuff to think that you were going to offer, right? Totally.

Huge part of it. It sounds, yeah, you can probably just go to him now and be like, you know I wanna offer, you know you don't have to do this, but maybe it's time to end the dance. End the dance a little bit. And that was a big thing when some of the guys came back to visit and they had their hockey bonus money and I'd be sitting there throwing a debit card down

next to AmEx. The metal. Right. They weren't metal back then, but it would be like debit, the numbers would be like off. Honestly, I think I threw a couple expired ones in there a couple of times just to be like,

I hope it's not me, I hope it's not me. I hope it's not me. I'll wait. I threw in one that was just an absolute dud. That's real credit card rule, man. Yeah, nobody knew. And you're sitting there going, well, I have to pretend I can handle this, but there's just, I was like, if they pick mine,

I'm just gonna have to have a little side chat over at the Hostess station. I'll find my guy, yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna run to the bathroom quick. I got this, say, great night, guys. But I think the guys that are, that what they're doing basically is maybe they're spending the inheritance they were gonna give you anyway too

on top of everything else. Like if they've really killed it, okay? Because it's gonna get super annoying if you find out later on they just spent all this money and you're like, oh, they're like, hey, can we move in with you guys? But if somebody's absolutely crushed it, you know, there's an argument to be made

that it makes way more sense to set up your fiance, set up her sister. Sometimes when you look at the way inheritance works, and I don't understand how anybody really gets upset and talking about inheritance. Some people are just going to look out and some people aren't. But there's an argument for spending it now while you're younger and helping you get a head start as opposed to like, oh cool, now we're 65 and we get these checks from our parents, you know? So look, just appreciate it man, cause you're in a great spot,

but I also think you're in a great spot because your wife seems to understand despite her financial advantages and you're not taking it for granted and it's just full appreciation. So high marks all around. Yeah, I liked the good gesture thing too. Like, you know what, just like put in for those master's tickets and surprise them, you know, like get Carmell's dad that Beretta, you know,

get it, get it, get him the, get him the present. He's going to be like, Holy crap. Um, you know, with all the, with all the money that you haven't spent, uh, because of doing stuff with them, just think, just really spend more time thinking about when those gifts or good gesture moments present themselves, like how can you really crush that? It's really probably time to like what, you know, spend money, give back with your time, they're going to appreciate that. I think more than, you know, whatever the gift is, but at least that's how I know my, my parents look at it. Uh, at least that's how I know my, my parents look at it.

Um, okay. I thought this was a dream one, but it is also about a dream. So this isn't about inception, but, um, let's see if I can help here a little bit. All right. Uh, long time listener, first time email, letter 28, five, 11 and three quarter. Formally six feet, uh, no11 and three quarter, formerly six feet. Uh, no pickup comp because I was cut by every basketball team I ever tried out for about six months ago. One of my best friends from college, just call him Bubba moved into my house in Philly after living in Chicago since

graduating college. Um, so he moved in six months ago, moved into his house, Philly, since he graduated college. So we're talking, this guy's gotta be a little bit younger. I mean, unless he graduated later, but he's been working as an engineer, but about a year ago told our friend group, he was looking at a career change and a move back to the East Coast. He and I discussed moving in with me

since I'd had an open room in my house. While I was really excited about one of my best friends moving in, I was a little concerned with what his new career would be, dot, dot, dot. Bubba had written a script for a sitcom during the dregs of COVID based on his experience living in Chicago post-graduation. All right, so it sounds like he's a couple years later if he just

if he was living in COVID post-graduation. See what we're saying here. He calls it a perfect hybrid of new girl and workaholics. I've read the pilot and some other episodes he's written and found it amusing but not sure I'm qualified to judge as my only experience in the entertainment industry is playing lost boy number 17 in my grade school's production of Peter Pan. You were great in that though. You look so much more lost than the rest of the boys. His plan when moving to Philly was to work as a production assistant on various sets in the area

and build relationships with people in the business. His brother works locally as a sound engineer on commercials, TV shows, and indie films, so he was able to get work as a PA relatively quickly. Granted, some of the sets he was working on had been commercials for kitchen appliance, super relevant experience. I don't know, you know, look, he's making connections.

I remember when guys used to come and shoot the ESPN ads when one of the makeup ladies came over and combed my hair. Like it was, I was an extra leave it to beaver and I didn't realize. And then when the videos came back, I was like, Jesus Christ, that's when I had like enough hair to trick everybody. But it was like, she did a, just like eight year old picture day pictures. Good ad though. The ad was funny.

And I was sitting there, you know, who knows? I had some dreams. I talked to the guy that's directing the commercial and I was like, what's up, man? He's like, I'm going to keep working on this. He's like, I want to, I have an indie thing I'm doing and, you know, take it to some festivals and, you know, I got to move back out West, you know, this thing's paying the bills. But, you know, and I was like, yeah, look at this guy. You know, look at us, a couple of creators, thinking big picture. He makes $200 a day, but only averages about five working days per month.

Ooh, okay. Lot of free time though to write. Bubba's given himself a runway of one year to make his TV show happen, hoping to film a pilot with the help of his connections he makes on a budget of around 20K. My biggest issue with his life choice is his level of commitment to the so-called dream.

It feels like he's just dipping his toe into an industry where success can be so rare. I've asked him several times why he doesn't get a job like driving for Uber or DoorDash so he can extend his runway or even take a writing class, join an improv group, try stand-up comedy, consider moving to Hollywood. Literally anything to develop his skills

and better his chance at making this work. He wants to star in this TV show, having never acted before, by the way. This guy's going the full workaholics experience. On some weekend nights, I'll ask if he wants to come out for some beers. The friends will say, nah, man, working on the script. Only for me to come home and find half a bottle of Woodford Reserve polished off. Woodford's too. Nice. Maybe that opens up the creative veins, man. As a landlord, I'm not too concerned

about his credit worthiness because I was able to close on my house early 2021 before interest rates went bonkers. But as a friend, I can't help but be concerned about how this late 20s, so he is late 20s, crisis could potentially set Bubba back years professionally. I'd love to hear your guys' opinion on the situation, especially you, Ryan,

given your background and experience in the industry. Am I right to be worried as Bubba need to start paying for LinkedIn premium? Um, all right. Well, look, um, I obviously have some experience in this, um, and I can't, uh, go over everything, but the whole runway thing, I did the exact same thing. Like when I left to come out here, I knew how much money I was going to guarantee

to be make like the first year. And it was also like, hey, I at least want to buy some real estate in Manhattan Beach. And if I can't afford to live in this house after a year, then I'll just move and not live here. But at least I'll finally have bought a piece of property. And then, you know, who knows, maybe when I'm like 50, I get to finally move and see if I like it there.

Cause there's a really good chance if things didn't work out. Well, there's definitely a good chance if things didn't work out, I couldn't afford to live there. But I did a very similar thing of like, okay, well, I don't have to work that much because I was doing one pod a week for ESPN. I was also doing one pod for Ringer before it was even Spotify. And the ESPN money was going to run out. And I knew that I wasn't going to make the same amount for ESPN once that expired, just because I wasn't doing a daily radio show anymore. They weren't going to pay me the same amount of money, which I'd already kind of known and understood.

So I was like, OK, of all the different scenarios, like there was still one where I was like, hey, some version of this will work out enough that you're not going to have to move again. There was that. But I had to be open to the idea that it wasn't going to go that way. The other part of like, in one year, I have to have this done.

I did it. It's one of the dumbest things that you can do. You have to, like the world is, I've said this before, but it applies to screenwriting, probably more than almost anybody. Like that whole world is not like determined to match your fucking timeline, okay? So the other thing that I think that I had to learn

was that just even if you, like say your buddy writes a killer pilot, all right? I mean, chances are, but I don't know, maybe he does. Maybe he's actually pretty good at this. Him wanting to star in it, yeah, it's also alarming. You know, the workaholics thing worked. You wanna know why? Because those guys are really funny.

Like the three of those dudes are really funny. They have a very like natural dynamic with each other. Their comedic instincts are terrific. So I don't even know, you know, I think they were doing videos, right Kyle? And then it kind of worked. I think that was their, I don't know if they wrote like a pilot and then they were going to do, I thought those guys were like all in college together and were doing these videos and shit that just clearly kind of popped. I grew up in the always sunny

school. So they have like a similar story, but I don't, yeah, I'm not really familiar with how workaholics kicked off. It's funny though, because like those kind of shows, I feel like every friend group is like, dude, you know, if you just filmed us and our trip to Vegas, like we could do that. We're hilarious. And like, I'm guilty of that. Well, that's exactly what your guy we had on the Pods Center is like, I can't tell you how many people are like, my workplace would be the perfect show. And he's like, let me just stop you right there.

Yeah, everybody. Everybody thinks it, everybody does it. Because you see some stuff on TV. It's kind of funny too, whenever you're in a creative field, you can go, well, that thing sucked. You're like, so what are you saying? You're comparing your work to just being slightly better than the thing you think is terrible. So that means because that was made

that you think you have a good chance. So anyway, back to how of like how this stuff worked. You can write a really good pilot. It's a starting point, but it actually ends up being probably one of the most irrelevant parts of the timeline events. I know that sounds crazy and it's not entirely true, but you can write a really good pilot,

but if nobody else with juice wants to make it, it's just a really good pilot that shows that you have skills that you can write a really good pilot, but if nobody else with juice wants to make it, it's just a really good pilot that shows that you have skills that you could write. Maybe that pilot gets you on a writing staff and maybe being on a writing staff for years leads to connections where you on top of working on a TV show or on the side working with somebody else or working by yourself on your own thing and your crap.

The thing about writing that's really, really weird, especially screenwriting, because I think people just look at the final draft program and go, oh, this is like, I just have to write this sentence. That looks so real. Yeah, or it's just like the number of words, you're going like, I don't have to write like 75,000 words here, I could just kind of be like,

this dude comes in, she laughs, hey, what the hell? He makes a face, right? Yeah, right. It's just the visual of looking at his script, consider you can read like a 60 page script in 20 minutes probably, you're like, oh, I could do that, but there's a little bit more to it. So you have to figure out how to hone that craft.

And it sounds like he's trying to do that, he's putting the hours in, but you then would need, if you have to figure out how to hone that craft. And it sounds like he's trying to do that. He's putting the hours in, but you then would need if you have very little connections because look, a studio saying yes to somebody, think about what they're really doing. They're going through all of the different things that they presented and they are picking this thing based on somebody's track record or their vision.

And even if their vision or their writing is incredible, there still has to be somebody else that has a track record of success that's a production company that goes, we actually do want to partner with this person and then we want to make it. And then this is where the pilot part of it kind of becomes irrelevant. They're going to want you to map out kind of like five seasons. All right. And if you're lucky enough to even be invited to a pitch, you're going to have to like, when I had a pitch something that was a pretty big deal, I spent four days in my house and I'd already written the script like six months

prior and I had the production company. Um, I have, I should say, that was established and got me in the room. I had to have an answer for like 45 minutes on anything that could possibly happen with this show. That's where you start writing your Bible and that thing's like, I don't know, 100 pages long. It's like a sales document for storytelling of where this is going to go because nobody

goes, unless you're just the man and you've crushed it numerous times, you're like, hey, I think I have this show, like Taylor Sharon is like, I think I got this thing about Lumberjacks. Every fucking network would be like, in. Say no more fam. Done.

Yeah. You had me at lumber. So most people, like you can have the good pilot, but you're gonna have to have a team with a track record, especially if you're an unknown, and you're gonna have to have somebody believe in the vision of where your story is going for multiple seasons,

because that's when people start making like real money. Nobody's like, oh yeah, okay, well like that first season sounds good, so we'll just trust you on season two, three, four, and five. I mean, limited series is an entirely different thing. And then they have to get through all that and even wanna make the pilot, and then of course, there's a decision after the pilot,

because the people that are in charge of these shows have to answer to other people. And nobody will ever say, why did you guys greenlight this thing? It's a disaster. And you'll be like, well did you guys green like this thing? This is a disaster. And you'd be like, well, the pilot was good. You know? So look, and I know there's exceptions

and people that are way more involved in the industry day to day than I am, may disagree with some of these things, but I'm just kind of trying to outline like the general part of it. So yeah, it's really, really hard. And I would say get rid of this whole one year deadline because from the time you finish a really good pilot to having an agent read it, to a production company decide that they want to partner with you, to you go then and pitch

and then hopefully sell and then rework the pilot and then the Bible and then wonder the amount of time from the first sentence to when a camera would actually be rolling, that's years. Again, minus the exceptions of people that are just so established, the rules are different for them. But the rules for somebody who's never done this before that has very little connections, the one-year window thing is a fucking joke. You're not going to make it in one year, even if you are brilliant.

Unless again, maybe the indie part of it of like, hey, we're just gonna go ahead and shoot this whole pilot, I'm gonna start, I'm gonna do this whole thing. I hope you have somebody who's established who can go through it, because you're not going to know. And the best thing for me was going through it, and I knew there was all these things that I didn't know and I was like

you're gonna learn that all these things that you've assumed today like you're assuming like holy shit I can't believe I thought that or I can't believe but I already knew it because I'd already gone through it in a whole different field so I was like you're totally naive you don't have these answers but you're aware that you don't have them and that's actually like that's better than than never having gone through something special before. I'm sorry I jumped you there, Kyle. But, you know, what he's doing is really, really hard.

But why do you care if he's paying his rent? I mean, I guess you care as a friend, let him fail. Let him fail. Yeah, maybe you keep your mouth shut until the one year deadline of just, maybe you should start moonlighting as a TV show writer that doesn't get paid for it. Like maybe at that certain point,

you can, you know, if it's hard for you to see him on the couch every single day and not doing anything, which you know what, at a certain point, someone could say, mind your own business. You know, if the electricity and the rents get paid on time, I mean, mind your own business. But if you're saying as a good friend, I don't feel good about watching this guy do something that clearly on the outside, I think is doing

the wrong way. But I don't really know anything about this business. Maybe you wait until he's done with his one year runway. And then you'd be like, Hey, man, have you thought about like, here's some here's some writers that were waiting tables until they got their thing picked up. Maybe you should start doing something else as well. Maybe that's a good way to break it in because it doesn't sound like, you know, you're like, and he's just sitting around all day and he's constantly late on the rent. It's just, you're worried that he's like,

gonna look up and be like, I haven't had any work experience for four years and I can't even get a regular job that's decent. And still nobody wants my pilot. So I don't know, maybe wait till you your one year runway and still find a way to be supportive and just be like, you know, a lot of these dudes have another gig as well, like you can't just keep tweaking the same script and eventually someone's gonna be like, that's the tweak.

We want it now. Uh, all your dreams are coming true. So maybe, maybe you find a way near that one year runway endpoint where you can, you know, suggest that, uh, runway endpoint where you can suggest to find something else to fill his days and sort of a backup plan. Yeah. I think we've had buddies who you're like, hey, is this kind of the right path for our guy? And collectively as the other members of the friend group, you're like, what do we do? Do we say something? You just got to let it play out.

Don't let it play out too long. But a year, you know, if he wants to do this thing for a year and you know, it's probably fair game then to, to, to talk back and be like, Hey dude, what are you doing? But I don't know. Cause if you do it too early, then it's like, Hey, do you not believe in me? Are you really my friend? And like, he creates all these issues. And I, I, I, I'm just kind of like a, Hey, let people make their mistakes.

Kind of thing. I mean, if, if the guy really, really needs help and he's like floundering in life and doesn't have any direction, um, after several years, you're like, yeah, all right, this is maybe the time to have an intervention and step in, but you gotta let people fail. You gotta let people fall on their faces. And, you know, if he wants advice, if he opens up to you at ever then like, maybe go in for it and take that opening.

But it just, it's just a delicate thing. Cause then it's like, Hey, do you not believe in me? I don't know, I don't think you want to go down that road. Yeah, it's really hard, man. It's really hard. I remember in the beginning when I lived out here and I would finish something and I would send it to one of my agents

and he'd be like, hey, this is pretty good. I'd be like, all right, when do, like, when do we meet with HBO? You know, like I know a guy over there and it's like, we could go meet with them. But like, just going to be wasting everybody's time, wasting your time. You'd be really wasting their time. Uh, but there's a, there's a world where he can be just as passionate about however long he's actually sitting in front of the laptop or the sketch pad,

you know what I mean? Because it sounds like that trails off at some point and our guy gets home from the bars and he's asleep on the couch with an open bottle of whiskey. Like there's a world where that guy can be as passionate about as he is about sitting around all day, just between seven and nine PM after he's decompressed from his job for an hour or two.

Like there is a world where in his mind that's cool too. Like I'm really grinding to make this and maybe he just hasn't tried that. Maybe that is the same amount of work he would have done anyway, which I don't know the answer to that. That's a great point as we finish up here because there's nothing better than saying you're a writer

as an excuse to not do anything on the side. Right. You know, you're like, oh, I gotta, I gotta go over this scene again. And then you're like, all right, let me get 30 minutes, call a duty and then refresh. Then we'll do this. Yeah. Then we're like, okay, now we're hot. Let's turn up some tunes. Be like, all right, cursor.

What do we got tonight? All right. That'll do it for the show. Thanks to Wargon. Thanks to Jonathan Frias. Thank you to Kyle and Saruti. Brian Rosso podcast video pod on Spotify app and of course, a YouTube page. So please subscribe Brian Rosso podcast. Must be 21 and older, present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star

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