The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Russillo Book Club: 'Led Zeppelin: The Biography' by Bob Spitz. Plus, Life Advice.

Episode Date: July 21, 2022

Russillo is joined by journalist and author Bob Spitz to discuss his biography of Led Zeppelin (0:36). Then, Ryen answers some listener-submitted Life Advice questions (39:51). Host: Ryen Russillo Guest: Bob Spitz Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

today's rossillo book club episode is bob spitz the author of the latest led zeppelin book it just came out fans led zeppelin will love it fans of led zeppelin will also be super bummed out with the band so there's a lot to cover here spitz also did the beatles book a book on ronald reagan julia child so he's terrific he also toured and managed uh with bruce springsteen so this guy has been around music for decades and we'll talk with him and finish the life advice led zeppelin is the book bob spitz is the author and the legendary journalist joins us now uh a lot of different ways we can go with this but i really kind of want to start where the book starts and now have a further understanding of what Led Zeppelin was from its initial creation and that this really was Jimmy Page's thing. This guitarist, this virtuoso, he had this vision, he had this thing in his head, these sounds. A studio musician,

super accomplished at a very young age, but who was Jimmy Page kind of at this stage of trying to figure out who he wanted to be and what he wanted to create? Well, Jimmy had been in the studio for so long. I mean, he hadn't really worked with a band for a couple of years and had been just a studio musician on hundreds of, I mean, seminal rock recordings.

And not just seminal rock recordings, but Jimmy was the guitar player on all Tom Jones records on Goldfinger by Shirley Bassey, of all things. He would walk into a studio not knowing who was going to be, you know, on the other side of the door. And Jimmy would just play. He loved working with bands, but he hadn't been on the road in a long time. And so he got hooked up with the Yardbirds as they were coming apart at the seams. His buddy, Jeff Beck, who he grew up with, by the way, Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton, and Jimmy Page all live within a mile and a half of each other growing up. I mean, you know, imagine that. Something was in the water. So Jimmy got involved with the Yardbirds.

It was coming apart at the seams, but he realized that he really liked working with a live rock and roll band. So he decided to put his own band together, and it became Led Zeppelin. I mean, it was fantastic. And I'd known a little bit about the origin of it all, but it is kind of funny to think that one of the greatest, and certainly at that time, arguably the biggest

rock band in the world, was just going to start as a reboot, like a TV show 20 years later that was like, hey, we're just going to name it the same thing, and they were just going to be the new Yardbirds. As original as it became, it's incredibly funny how unoriginal it was in the beginning yeah they couldn't get arrested as the new yard birds i mean nobody was interested they had seen that band uh they had seen it through various you know incarnations first eric clapton was their guitar player then uh jeff beck was their guitar player now. Now they have Jimmy Page and it's like,

who wants to hear from the Yardbirds again? They didn't want to hear over under sideways down over and again. So Jimmy decided to scrap it all. And, and also he, he couldn't get control of the name either. So he decided to go with Led Zeppelin, which was just brilliant. And that was, was it, the name was, was it Keith Moon? It was either Keith Moon or John Entwistle. They were in a session for Jeff Beck when he was making his first album.

And who was there? Let's see, John Paul Jones was playing bass. Entwistle didn't show at the last minute. Moon was on, Nicky Hopkins was playing piano. And Moon was on drums and Jimmy on guitar with Jeff Beck. Oh, and Rod Stewart was singing, 15 years old. And at the end of it, they thought, you know, let's leave all our old bands behind. Let's form a new band. And Moon said, yeah yeah that'll go down like a red zeppelin and jimmy never forgot it so

jimmy's got the idea he's got the foundation he meets jones bass player through other session work uh and then it's like okay well how do we figure out you know they'd ask different drummers and then they hear about robert plant and johnham, who I think the best way to explain this would be to think all these were English kids that were all the same sensibilities. It'd be like saying some high school kid in Mississippi is the same as a high school kid going to a prep school in New York City. Like it could be more different. Can you, can you explain a little bit more on just how different the backgrounds and the personalities were of these two different pieces of the band? Well, it's so easy to explain because Jimmy and John Paul were London boys and Robert and Bonzo, they were from the Midlands.

And that's like, you know, saying some guys are from New York and the other guys are from Iowa. Yeah. It was night and day, but it didn't start that way. It started with a young guy named Terry Reed. And if you haven't heard Terry Reed's albums, you should listen to them because they're fantastic. Terry had the voice that Jimmy was looking for. And it was the same kind of voice that Stevie Winwood had.

I mean, who was regarded at that point as really the best rock and roll singer in the UK. And so Jimmy went after Terry Reed, but Terry had just signed a contract to do his own first album and wasn't interested. And he also, you know, he he had been on the road with the Rolling Stones as an opening act. He was 16 years old. His career was just taking off and he didn't want to be involved with the new Yardbirds again. So he recommended some kid he saw in the Midlands named Robert Plant. And Terry said, you should look him up. And it was incredibly difficult for Jimmy to find him. He was playing at a teacher's college

and with a pickup band and nobody was interested in Robert's voice. And Jimmy went to see him and he thought, something's wrong with this guy. It's got to be because he's got the greatest voice I've ever heard. And he's not in a band. I mean, it's, you know, it was ridiculous. Um, and he thought this kid must be a head case. Uh, but he tried him out, you know, we invited him down for a weekend. They, uh, they played each other, their favorite records. They turned out to be the same things. Uh, and Jimmy fell in love. And that was it. Robert fell in love too. The blues influence, you know, whether you,

you knew the history previous to, or you listened to the songs like me as a kid, I remember the first time I ever heard black dog, you know, I remember, I remember where I was. I remember hearing that opening riff and I'm like, this feels different. Uh, I remember once I started to learn about them, I'd ask my father, you know, who'd been around, I go, what was your first? He goes, look, man. And my father, you know, seen everybody. And he goes, there was this moment where he was in New York city walking through, you know, maybe the village or something like that early, early on like, Hey, this is Led Zeppelin, this, you know, this, this British invasion thing, but like, these guys are a little different. You should go check this out. And he goes, you know, you walk

in and it was so powerful. It just blew you away it just it was this experience but it also had such a heavy heavy blues influence especially the first record which you know influence might be being kind uh what was it with this group of kids these musicians that were just completely blown away by this this older american music that was actually hard to even access for yeah it's a phenomenon that we missed completely in the States because none of the young kids, when I was growing up, and I grew up in the Elvis Presley era, gravitating into Bobby Rydell and Ricky Nelson and Fabian and gravitating even further into the Beatles. But we missed that old blues era completely. And it exploded in the UK. I think one of the reasons is that the jazz bands in the UK in the 1950s needed somebody to

play in their intervals. In other words, there was 20 minutes when they needed to take a break. And so what they did was they imported these old blues guys from America to play those intervals because they worked so cheaply. But wow, the kids just were knocked out by the blues in the UK, and it exploded there. It's what the Yardbirds listened to, John Mayall and the Blues Breakers listened to. And right now I'm working with the Rolling Stones and it is surely what Keith and Mick listened to and Brian Jones listened to. And Jimmy was knocked out by it as well. So they they really had a foundation and it wasn't R&B as we know it. It wasn't, you know, the Temptations and the Supremes. It was people earlier than that. It was Big Bill Brunzi and Lightning Hopkins and Sonny Terry and all these great Mississippi and Chicago blues buddy guy. And that was the foundation of everything

that came out of the UK in the early 60s and it's one of the reasons I started the book off that way because before you understand Led Zeppelin you have to understand what their influences were no it's a terrific way to set it all up because it it allows you to understand their own evolution but as I said like saying they were influenced as being nice because there's another version of this really they were besotted they were ripping them off i mean they were taking lines straight out so it'd be one thing to change a riff here or there but even planet myths i think in the book he was like you know there's a bit of a liberty there and it's like it's the same phrase i mean willie dixon ends up what being credited on a song later on so how do people

creative people kind of look back at that stage where I think at the time it's completely overlooked and looking back on it, like you kind of feel like what's, what's the proper way to assess the influence versus ripping off other artists? Well, you know, listen, everybody, every art comes from something else comes from an influence. And in the old days you could write on an album based on traditional, you know, on a traditional influence. Led Zeppelin just forgot about doing that. They just put their own names on these old great blues songs. As you mentioned before, Willie Dixon is a prime example.

You know, you listened to A Whole Lotta Love. That is Willie's song. I mean, it absolutely almost phrase by phrase robert changed it a little and in the book i think there's a great quote from jimmy saying yeah robert should have changed it a little more um but eventually they they acknowledged it and uh you know when willie threatened to sue they figured we better uh come to terms with these old guys. Yeah. But then there's even like times, and I'm not going to get bogged down in all this, but where Jeff Beck listens to one of their songs and he thought it was an outtake.

It's like a tribute to him. He's like, wait, that's on the album. And then one of the first songs that I always loved, because I love all the John Fahey stuff. I started with Leo Kotke, then I worked myself backwards and ended up loving John Fahey even more just because of the emotion that he has in his music and his playing. And then you're reading that Page was in love with Fahey. And then you're thinking, wait, so you're telling me White Summer, Black Mountainside was basically just a different song from another. And he just changed the title of it. So I went back and watched the, is it Bosch?

I forget the guitarist's name. I started watching some of his videos and I'm like, oh, they were kind of crazy. All he did was change the title of that one. Yeah, it was Bert Jancz. Jancz, sorry. Exactly right. Yeah. No, I mean, look, you have to understand another thing about Led Zeppelin.

They were 20 years old when they got when they started. You know, Jimmy was 23 and they didn't have, you know, the finesse and the gravitas of an older rock band. These were kids and they just put their band together. They stole things. They put it, you know, they were having a good time. They caught up with them later, but I think they handled themselves pretty well through it all. Let's talk about Peter Grant, their manager, infamous.

Can you share with us, and I've read the book, but can you please share with us more detail on how he actually figured out a way to get Led Zeppelin exclusively from his partner at the time. Because it sounds like maybe one of the worst business decisions with one of the most evil seeds planted. Well, Peter was in business with a guy named Mickey Most. Mickey Most is one of the absolute most successful rock and roll producers in the UK. And in the early days, you know, Mickey did the Animals and, I mean, just everybody. And Peter was his partner. Peter handled the groups

that went on the road. Mickey handled them in the studio. But when Peter came across Jimmy Page, he realized, I'm not sharing this with Mickey for a couple reasons. Mickey produced pop music. And if he got his hands and insisted on producing Led Zeppelin, it would have just fallen apart. The other thing was he realized that he had a bonanza on his hands and he didn't want to share it financially. So he told Mickey that he was dying. financially. So he told Mickey that he was dying. And he only had a few months to live. And these guys were such good friends that Mickey bought it lock, stock, and barrel, and gave Peter the entire rights to Led Zeppelin, and he walked away with it.

Mickey's wife told me this story, because she was there when Mickey came home and said, listen, I just gave Peter the rights to Jimmy Page's new band. You know, this poor guy's dying. He wants to leave it as a legacy to his kids. And she said, are you out of your mind? You've just been scammed. And of course he was, but they remained friends somehow. Believe me, I would have shot the guy probably, but Peter and Mickey stayed friends throughout the whole thing.

Everybody that's creative, you can feel like nothing's happening fast enough. But for this group, it feels like in a very, very short amount of time, they were the undisputed biggest rock band in the world. How did they, were they aware they aware i mean i don't know if you can be aware at the time and in looking back they can say that they were but i mean how did you feel like they were processing this phenomenon that became i mean you know critics they're just loud they're singing about sex it's like yeah but it was clear the audience was getting something from them that they weren't getting from anyone else at that time. Right. Here's why they weren't aware. They weren't aware because they were doing great mistakes, but they couldn't get arrested in London. In London, nobody was

interested in them. So every time they go back from doing an American tour and try to set something up back in the UK, their balloon burst. It took a much longer time to get them off the ground there. So that's why they didn't think that they were doing something new. But I'll tell you, one of the things that I think, going to answer your question head on, is why they took off so fast and why it burst wide open in the States was because they decided to play to a new generation. The 60s was over. Led Zeppelin came up with the sound for the 70s. And so while the Beatles had played to 15-year-old girls and 15-year-old boys who were now grown up and in their 20s, Led Zeppelin found the new generation.

They were playing to 15 year old boys and 15 year old girls in the, in the seventies. And it was a new sound. It was the sound of the seventies. Uh, Jimmy created it and, uh, and it burst wide open and there was no stopping it. I think that's more that I think should answer your question a little better than. Yeah, then I asked it, perhaps saying that they were aware of what was going on. You know, they weren't aware of what was going to just grew up around them and it took off. And once it took off, they had no control over it anymore. off and once it took off they had no control over it anymore i love the rolling stones part of the story in how you know the stones worked at being famous uh led zeppelin did not maybe they were too young to understand it they hated the press the press loved the stones the stones i think you

even mentioned one of the first recordings that they had heard of what zeppelin did they hated it didn't even want to listen to it. How did that continue throughout these two English bands that are so popular? It felt like from Led Zeppelin's side, I don't know if jealousy is the right word, but just frustration with the way they felt like they were treated completely differently than the Stones were. Yeah, I have a little better grip on this right now because for the last two years, I've been the Rolling Stones' biographer. Well, I can't wait, by the way yeah i've been working on that left and right but uh basically what it irked jimmy and robert i mean just it it irked them terribly that the stones got all this publicity and that led zeppelin was just dismissed um and that's because I think the old generation of rock critics,

and these are the guys who grew up with the Stones and the Beatles and then Crosby, Stills and Nash and Joni Mitchell and James Taylor, they were all in their late 20s, these critics. They didn't want to have anything to do with this new music, so they panned Led Zeppelin. They really did. I mean, beginning with Rolling Stone, Crawdaddy, all the major magazines dismissed Led Zeppelin, and it drove Jimmy and Robert nuts. Then the Stones began to appear everywhere. They were the press darlings. And Led Zeppelin couldn't figure it out because they sold eight times as many records as the Rolling Stones. But it was their own doing. I mean, Jimmy and Robert were terrible to the press from the very beginning. They mocked them

from the stage often. They brought up critics by name from the stage and tore them apart. And when they had, even when they had press parties for their new albums, Led Zeppelin sat together at a table, wrote themselves off, wouldn't let the press near them. So, you know, I mean, it was a monster of their own making and it really bugged them. But the Stones were press darlings. They knew how to handle it. They were older. But the Stones were press darlings. They knew how to handle it. They were older. They had been around it more. They weren't with a guy like Peter Grant. You know, if Led Zeppelin had been with anybody but Peter Grant, it might have been different. But Grant, you know, Grant was a thug and Grant gave them the thug's kind of aura and told them not to deal with the press.

And I think that hurt them in the long run. As the story continues, I think there's maybe 20, that might be a low number, of 20 different people being quoted as, well, at that stage, Peter Grant had kind of gone off the deep end. And then like five pages later, it's somebody. And then we're years later. It's like at that point, Grant was getting really bad. You mentioned his background. He was muscle.

He liked this role. He started bringing other people around him that were tough guys that I would say even band members at times were afraid of. I want to talk about the partying and the notorious part of this. But Grant, between his own drug use, which I think the simple answer to a lot of this is how did it turn into this? Drugs. this but grant between his own drug use which i think the simple answer a lot is how did it turn into this drugs but it seemed like in the beginning when it wasn't so much about drugs they relished the idea of being the absolute bad boys of rock and roll it was kind of like reading about motley crew again where the other rock bands would be like those guys are at an entirely different level that i don't even want to approach and that felt like what zeppelin was to their contemporaries

yeah you know zeppelin look again their contemporaries yeah yeah zeppelin look again i think it was just the difference between the 60s and the 70s in the 60s the drug of choice was marijuana you kind of mellowed out in the 70s led zeppelin's music uh the drug of choice was cocaine uh and it did something completely different to them, to their audiences, to their behavior. And they felt they could get away with anything when they were coked up. Grant was, you know, Grant fueled it. A lot of the money that they made went to tons of cocaine. I mean, I don't use that word lightly.

Grant traveled with a holdall that he always had next to him. And there was usually about a bag with two pounds of coke in it all the time. And he dispensed it just like the Pied Piper. So the behavior, you know, was kind of off the wall. It was unchecked. And as you mentioned, as the story rolls on, person after person says it was coming apart because Peter Grant had gone off the rails. Big news! FanDuel has

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FanDuel.com forward slash Ryan FaceOff that's R-Y-E-N FaceOff to download the FanDuel Fantasy Sportsbook accounts. Visit FanDuel.com forward slash Ryan Faceoff. That's R-Y-E-N Faceoff to download the FanDuel Faceoff app and get in the game. Age and location restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. See FanDuel.com forward slash Faceoff dash terms for terms and conditions. The other part of the story that's, you know, it sucks reading about it. The groupie part of it, but how young the girls were at that time. And then sometimes even the parents being involved and very proactive with dropping

their daughters under 16 off at the hotels. When you're going back and researching that and talking to some of the, you know, who are women now who were kids at the time and thinking back to those times, like what was that part like reporting on it? Yeah, it was really tough. And I have a wife who's a real feminist and, you know, she read me the riot act. She said, don't you dare call them young women. They were girls. They weren't 16. They were 14. And I will tell you in some cases, 12. And I met with a lot of them. There are now women in their late 50s and early 60s who told me explicitly. And, you know, Jimmy and Robert owned up to it. I mean, you know, they didn't try to dispute it. It was happening. Yeah, it was really hard. I'm the father of a daughter. It was hard to read some of this stuff. It was mostly focused in Los Angeles, but not all that. You know, it happened across the country and Texas and Alabama. it kind of set off a chain reaction among those kinds of bands that played that kind of music,

uh, for that kind of behavior. Yeah. It's tough to read. Uh, it was hard to write. Yeah. And when you keep getting back,

like later in the story, like Jimmy, Jimmy's off the rails, you know, the Coke has now evolved into heroin use. And, you know, anyone that's ever read about any of this stuff knows that the story, Jimmy's off the rails. The coke has now evolved into heroin use. Anyone that's ever read about any of this stuff knows that the drummer, Bonzo, was out of control from the jump. But he hated being in the States. It seemed like Plant hated being away from his family.

Jones seemed to be more the straight guy throughout all of it. But when they're complaining about how brutal the American crowds are, and then they talk about the South, you're like afraid of somebody's going to shoot you. You're like, well, you know, how much of that is the crowd and, and gun laws and how much is it is your own behavior. And I didn't think there was, you know,

it's lacking accountability on that part of it, but I didn't, I wasn't searching for accountability probably in a rock story either. So, you know, you didn't get it in my story, but nevertheless, you know,

I really wanted to make sure in the book that this was not a book about bad behavior. made that transformed the music scene made great rock and roll and really you know changed what we listened to so it was really hard striking that balance i wanted to make sure that i kept it you know balanced well i want to get back to the music because whenever i think about you know the bands that end up going down historically uh they always evolve before we're ready you know they really do and you know zeppelin as you mentioned the influences early on but like once you get to physical graffiti and you think about these first five albums you're going like what these look what they've tried and and you're very fair and that not every attempt is is nailed but that they're even trying. I remember when you two decided to just completely revamp who they were. I had a hard time with it.

Honestly, I never liked them as much again as I did in those first 10 years. The police, I thought, were terrific with it. Reading Miles Davis's biography, he was incredible. And how mad the jazz world got at him from getting away from the standards and him going, no, I want this player. I want to do this. We need to start doing more. And then you go back and listen to all that.

Don't forget about the Beatles too, because the Beatles evolved through every album that they ever made. Beatles may be the best example of not giving the audience what they wanted every time and then proving that they were right about it. And Zeppelin did it from a genre that can't quite be defined in the same way. But what did you learn from talking with, whether it was the members that you interviewed here or just the people that were around it as, you know, they remained this popular despite it almost felt like initial doubts of,

of whatever creative changes that they were making. Well, they did something very smart when they did Led Zeppelin three, which was basically an acoustic album, and then decided to go out and, you know, really focus on the album in their shows, they also made sure that they were going to play, you know, the headbangers as well. So they, you know, they struck a good balance. And I think they let their audience say, okay, listen, we'll let you guys, you know, it's like listening to the Beatles do, you know, something slow and roomy and dreamy. And yet they were going to, you know, play the hits. And Led Zeppelin did that. They played the

hits as well. But it allowed them to really change and inject new kinds of sounds. I mean, you know, when we get later on, when Jimmy and Robert go to Morocco and come back and, you know, there's cashmere sitting right there. I mean, this was something completely new. Kids had never heard before. You know, you could look at each one of the albums that they introduce. The sound always changed. They always threw in a few rock and roll songs, but they really allowed themselves to experiment. And that's what any good rock and roll band does. Yeah. And what's so frustrating about the story is it actually just continues to get like Saturn away because then you're realizing they're just on fumes. It felt like they were on fumes the last few years. What's the best way to

kind of discuss that part of it? Oh, one word, drugs. The drugs took over and it got to a point and so many people told me this, people who work closely with them, that there were times when Jimmy was playing the double neck guitar and he was so out of it that he was courting on one neck and strumming on the other neck. I mean, when things get out of control like that, there's a couple, there are a couple of videos I've seen where Jimmy's playing and I know as the biographer that he's sloppy and out of control. And you see Robert on the side of the stage while Jimmy is doing a lead and Robert's just looking at him and shaking his head because he knows, too. And that's what happened toward the end. You know, people say that the band fell apart because of Bonzo's death. But it was coming apart at the seams.

It really was. And I don't think it was fun for them anymore. Robert lost his desire to sing, especially after his son died and what happened in Oakland. And, you know, Bonzo was out of it. Jimmy was out of it. Peterzo was out of it. Jimmy was out of it. Peter Grant was out of it. Yeah, it was the heart. The heart was out of the band at the end. What was the best Bonzo story that also might be the worst?

Yikes. Actually, the best Bonzo story that I had was listening to how he really got off the ground in the Midlands. In the Midlands, they played in the pubs. That's where rock and roll bands, it wasn't like coffee houses. They played in the pubs and that's where they cut their teeth. But the pubs in the Midlands had, they had like a stoplight that you would see with a red light a yellow light and a green light and if you were playing and it wasn't too loud then the the green light was on if it got close to the edge the yellow light went on and if the red light went on they pulled the plug on you that that's the way the pubs did it. Well, the problem was that

every band Bonzo played with, while they were setting up, Bonzo would rehearse, it would go straight to the red light, and they would kick the band out of the pub before they even started. You know, Bonzo had a heavy foot, and he had that signature sound and he could never play with a band in the mid winds growing up. It got really, it got really tough. That's the best Bonzo story I know. You did a really great job though, of emphasizing the technical part of it. And that from the very beginning, once they heard him play the drums, then it was like, wait, this is different. It sounds different. It's like, it can be can be heavy it can be loud but there's stuff that he's doing that just most people can't do and that can kind of get lost in it look i'm a

musician uh you know i've played with bruce springsteen and i was uh i was just with elton john for years and i know music but i could not figure out what bonzer was doing and so i i found carmine a piece who was the drummer for, you know, one of the great rock and roll drummers. And he sat and explained what Bonza was doing with his feet. I said, can you do that? And he said, no, he was playing triplets with his feet on the bass drums. I mean, it was remarkable. His power was great, but his coordination was exceptional. And it's really funny. I'm a guitar guy. But as I listened to Led Zeppelin on earphones, I realized that the best musician in the band was the drummer. yeah no i mean i think you grow up you just think a page and then you know you're never quite sure because you go well wait a minute where does he rank hendrix and and clapton and you know i've gone back and read all the books and it's just a lot of fun at the time like i'll never forget

how laugh i'm laughing i was on vacation just laughing out loud at jimmy hendrix shy as hell walking up to robert clapton or excuse me eric clapton and it might have been when he was with Cream and he was like do you mind if I like sit in who is this guy and then apparently he did and then Clapton was like oh my god like you know everybody's talking about me and then I don't and so then it always kind of felt like Paige was in that conversation but then you know I think Beck is always a great reminder too but because of his band and what they did it just was never going to resonate the same way with everybody else. But, yeah, the Bonzo part of it is great. And as you mentioned, like once he was done, that was it.

It was just there was never it seemed like maybe there was a hint at it. But it feels pretty definitive that looking back at that time when he was gone, they kind of knew the band was dead. Yeah. Robert, you knowbert it had had his heart broken first his son dies um then he's in an well he's in an accident with his wife which she almost dies in a car accident and then you know jimmy he's seen jimmy pass out backstage on drugs robert decides never to go near drugs again. And he also realizes that Jimmy is a bad influence on him. And in fact, I will tell you this, I know from people talking to Robert now, he can't get the name Jimmy Page out of his mouth. It's like Joe Biden saying,

my former colleague, you know, Robert can't say Jimmy Page. He always says the guitar player that I worked with. That's one thing. The other thing is that Robert just, he couldn't sing Stairway to Heaven again. He just, he didn't want to do it, you know? And so if you saw the Kennedy Center honors, when Obama gives them the honors, John Paul is there and Jimmy's there and Robert's there. And John Paul and Jimmy are just smiling through the whole thing. But when the camera's on Robert, Robert's just staring into the void. No smile, no togetherness with the guys he's out of the band and when his when his mate died and you know he hadn't known bonzo since they were 14 years old uh that was it for robert it cut his heart it was really interesting reading along and i would go back to listen to the albums you know it as you would i like to kind of go back and i'll read the chapter and i'll go back and listen because you know maybe i'm here something different but it was i don't know that i ever really picked up on

it before until i'd read the book but when you listen to presence you're like oh robert does actually sound shot it does and and you're building to this it was just inconsistent these guys are running themselves ragged uh which you know we've explained here but i noticed like oh wait that power the range and some of the stuff, and that's on a studio album. You're thinking, wow, because it didn't really dawn on me. Maybe I was looking for that, but it felt that way.

It felt different listening to it after reading that chapter. And they weren't really working together anymore. You know, Robert and John Paul had sat around in a hotel for weeks waiting for Jimmy and Bonzo to show up. And then Jimmy shows up in one day and puts the whole album on the record, you know, on tape. And so, you know, where are guys like Robert and John Paul going to get energized playing?

I mean, they can't. It's impossible. And so, yeah, you can hear it. You can hear it in the albums. By the time you get to Coda, you know, for me, it was a real treat. And I'll tell you, Ryan, when I started this book, when my editor came to me and said, would you write this book? I had 20,000 vinyl albums in my collection and not a single Led Zeppelin album. I did not know this band. I didn't know their music. I knew Whole Lotta Love and I knew Stairway to Heaven.

And that was it because I was on the road with Bruce Springsteen during those days. And, you know, Led Zeppelin just wasn't, it didn't cross paths with us at all. So I really was in a wonderful place to be their biographer. I went in with a complete empty head and let the music fill me up. And it did. I was an empty vessel and it just poured into me

and I could hear everything fresh and really understand where they were coming from. It was a real treat. I was going to let you go, but I have to ask just one Springsteen question in here. Because I remember being a kid and carrying bricks to my dad while we'd lay brick on hot summer afternoons. on hot summer afternoons. And, you know, when, uh, when his, when a new tape was out, the boss would, would get heavy rotation on those, those hot summer days. And I would look around and I would see the guys working and I would think, man, these guys fucking love this dude.

And I'm a kid. I still like loved you too. Police were, were always kind of my number one and two, probably a little minute work sprinkled in there at that age but there was this just the bruce springsteen fan is like different and then i had never i admit for me it wasn't ever like one of my number one go-tos and then i saw him in an event and i knew the energy i knew the energy what is it about him and i can understand hey he's a performer he's a professional this is what he has to do he but what is it about him to stay at this peak level of intensity and passion and caring for the audience that we just don't see for this long? happens with Bruce. It happens with a guy like Keith Richards. They only care about the music. That's it. It is in their bloodstream, and they love it. And what you see on stage is that pure love. Keith loves playing rock and roll. The guy's going to be 80 years old. Bruce and I are the exact same age. We're both 72.

He loves playing rock and roll. And that's what does it. It connects with the audience. It is something that is so definable. And you can't turn away from it. And it's true. It's something that's real. And it's not staged. You know, Bruce is a great performer, but the music is what's in his blood and in his heart. And that's what comes across. What's a Keith Richards interview like at 78 years old? Yeah, great. The guy is terrific. He's smart, really articulate compared to Mick. Mick won't answer anything. Mick elbows every question away.

Keith hits it right on, won't turn away from it, really knows how to talk about music. It's a pleasure. I can't wait for the Rolling Stones book. Bob, this was a lot of fun. And for people that want to check out the Beatles, incredible, the Reagan book and everything. So thanks for all the work on this.

And thanks for the time today. Yeah, my pleasure. I enjoyed being here with you, Mike. You want details? Fine. I drive a Ferrari 355 Cabriolet. What's up? I have a ridiculous house in the South Fork. I have every toy you can possibly imagine.

And best of all, kids, I am liquid. So, now you know what's possible. Let me tell you what's required. Life advice. Lifeadvicerr at gmail.com. Okay. This is a good one. I don't know if I want to tell my story. Sruti's already looking at me. Like, the worst times to ask for

raises or contracts. Because I don't know if anybody did it at a worse time than I did but i did it so we'll see we'll see how it goes maybe i'll do it i don't know i don't know i don't know if i want to share it because if i share the number with everybody but i just want to be totally honest and the thing is if i share the number uh at the time of what i turned out at espn like people are going to be like are you fucking serious you're such an idiot and then i would just go yeah but you don't know what everybody else makes so if you were in my position you would have been like but again

i'm not saying i'm going to come out great in that story so i'm not sure if i want to do it but i kind of like i like attacking myself at times just iron sharpens iron especially when you're the piece of iron walking around what the fuck am i even talking about all right so let's get to the email. Our guy checking in 510 140. Lies. Stealth. Yeah. Crazy foot speed. I work for a company that employs over a thousand people. With the recent economic downturn and rising interest rates, our management felt it necessary to

downsize to weather the coming storm. That's their quote. As they put it, I was lucky enough to keep my job, but we did lose somebody in our department team as the company let go of about 50 people. And this had nothing to do with the financial health of the company, but rather the volume of work trending down, or so they told us. I will tell you, it is not uncommon for corporate America to use economic downturns when the company is totally healthy and may not be affected by anything, which is a bit naive to say nothing would affect all these different companies.

But there are a lot of companies that are like, let's get rid of the dead weight here. And then we have an excuse to also go ahead and do this. So as somebody that has been through multiple layoffs with a major company like Disney, it was always a little different. It was always kind of this, I think a lot of times too, they were just like, I think Disney at some point got to the point where they were just like, we need extra money for all the live rights that we're going to go after and with the live rights prices going up and up and up. So it sucks because I lost a lot of friends in a lot of those layouts.

But corporate America doesn't have to tell you the truth. They don't have to say, oh, this is why we're doing it. If they're getting ahead of it, it means they're probably getting rid of it. If it's a thousand people working there, they feel like this is 50. They could have kept, everybody else can do the job. I mean, it's pretty crazy when you think about how some shows would be staffed, even at ESPN, because it's the only thing I can really compare it to, where you would have a certain number of people on a show and then it would just be like, you know what, we're going to trim

this a little bit. And next thing you know, you're still getting a show on every single day. And then management feels better because they're like, look, instead of eight people on the show, they got bit. And next thing you know, you're still getting the show out every single day. And then management feels better because they're like, look, instead of eight people on the show, they got six and the lights go on every day and they're getting it done. So there you go. All right. So for the past two months, I've been in conversations about getting a raise that I felt I had earned. You don't get a lot of emails that say, I asked for a raise. Don't think I deserve it though. My managers in HR, yeah, right. Took my shot pretty kind of surprised I didn't get let go. My managers in HR discussed me. They would like my career path for what they would like,

what they would like my career path to be. These conversations have resulted in a plan where I would get a small title change and bump in pay in about one month and then continue training towards the next role that I would transition to go over the next year. The one month has come and gone without the change being processed and then 50 people just got let go. So my question is, at what point do I inquire about my situation where I just say nothing and not put a target on my back when it comes to potential future downsizing? It's been very frustrating trying to fight for what I'm worth and that I don't give up, but also I'm afraid of ramifications since the coming recession will be the first of my adult life. Okay. Complicated. Not an easy answer. A lot of this comes down to how important are you

to the future of this company? All right. And I'm not going to know that in this email. And you have to be honest with yourself. And at times, it's not even, you know, sometimes you can blame younger people for being like not super clear about how valuable they really are. Especially, you know, again, my industry isn't always the best because my industry is fucking weird this way. But in the corporate side of things, you know, you'll hear older people be like, oh, this group coming in, they don't get it. That's been going on for decades, right? So I don't know that that's totally specific to younger people coming to the

workforce now. So I don't want to be unfair about it. But I mean, how important are you? Do you think you're important? Do you get really good feedback? Do you get better assignments? If they were talking about potentially getting a raise and a bump and a title here, then based on the only evidence that we have in the email, it sounds like, you know, you're doing a good job. They're going to want to keep you around. So by asking right when it's happening, probably hold off on that. All right. You don't want to be the worst timing. You don't want to be the worst timing ever. Like I remember when Cannell got let go that day, somebody sent me a text asking to be my co-host. I was like, you know, can we let the body get fucking cold first?

You know? And I remember being pissed about it. Like, and I liked the guy that sent the text, but I was just like, dude, the day I lose my co-host, you're asking to get his gig. So you don't want to do that. You don't want to be that guy, but you also don't want to just give up on this either. Like this is your career and you just got to know the timing of it all. It's unfortunate you're losing some of the workforce. I would give it some time, maybe a month. You'll know better than I would. which it sounds like you must be if they were willing to change your title and give you a pay bump, then because you're asking about where you're at, it doesn't mean that you're going to be in the crosshairs next time they left. The only time you're going to be in the crosshairs is either if you're so expensive, which is unfortunately what happened with a lot of people at ESPN at the top level, some of the top level talent that they let go during the

talent layoffs. Those people, some of them were just expensive. And the way the math worked on all the accounting was like, okay, if we have to clear this much salary, this is how we're going to do it. So you actually, it wasn't so much if you were good or bad at your job. A lot of times it was like, who's really expensive so we can save more jobs? So I doubt you're making a ton of money at this point. That could also be a way you survive. So if we're asking for a raise, does it mean like the next raise here is going to make you more susceptible to let go? I doubt the raise is going to go up that much, but you should really understand it. And is there anyone there that you

trust on the management side that's not going to fucking snitch on you, that you can say in a month, hey, do you remember when we were talking about pay bump and a title change for me? I want to know when the right time is to ask somebody else about that. Can you help me? That's some of the office politics thing there. So you're not asking, but you kind of are asking. You're trying to get a little bit more information here. As someone that asked for a raise right after he'd been arrested, not the greatest time. Wow. I did not think you were going to say that. I thought you were going to say a different bad time to ask for a raise. Did not think you were gonna say that i thought you're gonna say like a different bad time to ask for a raise did not think you're gonna say that no like here's the

deal like when i got arrested in august and then i knew um you know some people like to really screw up the timeline with me because if you don't like me it's a super easy thing to do like oh you know career went to shit after that which is that show was didn't have a long future for like two years all right for two years i I knew I was fucked. And I kept asking. I would be like, hey, are you guys seriously going to give my show to Stephen A? No, we'd never do that to you. It went on and on and on and on and on. And then finally, I was like, hey, I've had a...

And then once everybody knew what actually happened in Wyoming, people at work, to their credit, were like, hey, we get it. But we're still going to slap you around a little bit. And I was like, I deserve that. And that's fine. And then a couple months later, they were like, yeah, we're giving your show to Stephen, which was always going to happen before it was, it was always going to happen before, but people try to play it out to like, that was the reason. And it wasn't Suriti is my guy. So no one's going to care if he backs me up here or not, but he would, because he knows he was working on the show. Like this was so obvious it was going

to happen. And at the time i was just like okay so fine like my contract is coming up in eight or nine months you're giving me a demotion which i can't really take in my contract i was like can we redo my deal and the guy's like well we can but like you think now's the right time you're not gonna like it right because it was four months after you know everything had happened and uh i was like yeah because i kind of knew deep down i was like i'm probably leaving and so then they made an offer it was the same salary and they were like we can tack on another three years uh and i was like no i still think i'm making way less than other people that i do better than and he was like yeah are, but this is what we're gonna offer you. And so I was like, yeah.

So I was like, yeah, I was like, no, I'm good. That was it. He was like, are you serious? You're going to turn down this much money? Like, just take it. It's guaranteed money. It's a lot of money. Like, I don't know if I want to share it because I think people are going to get pissed at

me, but I think I would share it because i knew how much other people were making so i never felt like i'm crushing it i would say for people that were on the air as much as i was i was probably paid the least so even an extension of what i was going to make and the guy's like this is guaranteed money like just fucking take it and then figure out the rest of it later. And I was like, I don't know, four to seven. I'm like, I'm out of here. He's like, you want to sleep on it? I was like, now we're good. And that was it. And that was it. So, you know, I'm not going to share the number. It'll be in the book one day. I just, um, I think you're right about that one thing where, uh, I think people do like being asked questions when

you're like, hey, I like I trust what you think of this situation. I don't know exactly how I'm going to do it. Do you have any advice? And then maybe something will get floated, but maybe it won't. But I just like I think you could tell who's like a person around that's higher up that you're like, I'm just wondering what you think I should do about this. And and just letting that go. I think that would be good. That being said, I just finished The Wire again, and season five newspaper layoffs, brutal. So I can imagine your feeling. I felt nervous for those guys, and I was just sitting on my couch.

So I could see... Gus. Yeah, Gus. I mean, he really just tried his best. But I think... He was trying to do the job. Gus was, you know, he's a newspaper man. That's what he was.

That's what he was. Ever since that day where he had that guy on the bus folding it perfectly, whatever he was saying. But I could see, even just as a watcher, I was like, this is really weird. I can't imagine anybody wanting to even poke their head up to say anything to anyone at that point.

So, I don't know. I think the best thing you said would be to... I mean, if you feel like you could talk to the HR person, great. But if not, yeah, go to somebody that you trust higher up and see what you think they would do if they were you. Those questions are easy to answer if it's not about you. Yeah, I don't really have much to add. I would just, a couple months, give it a couple months, I would say,

just to be safe. I don't know. I don't think there's any reason to do it the week or two or a month afterwards. But it's also like a conversation. Even if you don't have that person that you can go to who's like, you know, you're off the record guy or girl who's a who's a higher up, it's still probably worth whoever your manager is just like, always having that

conversation of like, hey, what's the next level? Like, I'm just interested, like, what's the next level I can get to? Like, what do I have to do to be there? So you always kind of know where you're at. I was really bad at that when I was younger, I was just like, I'm gonna just do my job. And like, whenever I get paid, I get paid. Like I just, you know, and I just didn't think about that until probably even in my 30s after probably my end of, you know, end of my time at ESPN. But it's, it's something you should talk about, like, always just be like, what's my next step? You know, I Ryan, I think you kind of taught this to me, like, what you're, you're, you're sort of like, never satisfied with whatever role you're at. And it's, it's something that, you know, I think other people should try

to emulate and be like, Okay, this is this is cool. I like where I'm at now. But like, what's the next thing? What's the next thing I could do? So if you're always thinking in that mode and talking about that with whoever your manager is, even if you're not that close with them, it's still a really good conversation to have and kind of gives the impression that you are ambitious, even if you're not even the most ambitious person there is. So that's how I would handle it. If you don't have somebody you can go to that's safe, at least try to start regularly having

those conversations. Yeah, but don't have them too often. Because that's another thing. No, and I'm not talking like every month, but like a couple of times a year, just, hey, just to check in, where am I at? You know, I think it's fair. Yes, yes, yes. Check in with the people that matter.

You know, make the people that matter whenever they have to make a decision. It's a more human decision. So if you're just somebody who's really good at your job and you stick your head in the corner, I mean, that's kind of what I did as an on-air guy. I just stuck my head in the corner and then did the show and was like, well, I'm good. So why doesn't everybody like me? And

it was like, no, because I never, I didn't, I mean, there's a much longer story. We touched on some of these things with ESPN in the past, but yeah, I always think it's kind of funny though, when, when people will be like, you asked for a raise after everything that happened. And I was like, look, it didn't really matter. It didn't matter because if nothing had happened, all of the things were still going to happen. And I wasn't going to get a raise because the guy that was offering me the new deal was like, wait, you thought you were going to get a raise. And I was like, yeah, but you're telling me you're not demoting me, but you're demoting me. He's like, it's not really a demotion. I'm like, well then, you know, I'll take a raise. And he was like, nah. And then we started going

over other salaries and he's like, yeah, no, I get it. I get it. But you know, whatever, like it was kind of like go fuck yourself and so i was like yeah okay cool i will go fuck myself but i also had to be okay with everything else you're not in you're just getting started man so you're going to be a little bit more delicate do not follow any of my advice on anything that i'm just talking yeah i mean ryan that's the thing again ryan was like is you if you're going to walk away from the table, you have to be very sure that you're okay doing that. You were very sure of where

you're at, Ryan. Not everybody is that way. If you're not sure to walk away from the table, don't do that. But also, to an earlier point... Look, if I had a wife and kids at home, I'd still be in Connecticut, right? Yeah. But to an earlier point you made too, you're right. Don't be the guy who every month is bitching about not having a raise because then that guy's never going to get a raise nobody

likes that person so there is obviously a very delicate balance there even if you feel like you really deserve it don't ask for it all the time because you're just going to be the annoying person and they're not going to want to give it to you yeah you won't like if you're younger and you're at the workplace and you're showing up three months after the job saying hey i know my worth all right although that's like a gen z thing some gen z people they don't care they're just like hey this is the standard i should be making this and you're like you've been here for three hours yeah it's a very delicate balance of like looking out for yourself which i'm all for but you can't be delusional about it you can't and i don't get any sense from this email at all by the way so i

feel like we're just touching on a million things that have nothing to do with the email now. I think this guy's going to get a head on his shoulders. Like we said, he's mentioned they were willing to give him this bump and this title thing. Don't go in the day after the layoffs. Give it a month or two. Like everybody said, is there anyone in power that you trust that isn't going to be

and you just want to slow play it. Be like, hey, look, I know now is not the time, but at some point in the future, I'd like to discuss this again. It doesn't have to be right now. I just want to slow play it. Be like, hey, look, I know now is not the time, but at some point in the future, I'd like to discuss this again. It doesn't have to be right now. I just want to make sure, is there a way for me to handle this that is respectful to the process and everything that's going on with the company? And if he says, hey, yeah, it's not going to happen for a year, it's just too many people

out there that are thinking about how unhappy they are at work and feeling like they're not being treated better. They all want to leave. Do you do anything else to create leverage for yourself? Because almost none of these fucking companies care about any of us. I don't care what you do until they think that you're going to lose, they're going to lose you. All right. And if you actually are valuable, like, Hey, look, so I mean, you know, keep working on it, keep working on it. Make sure you have, if there's one thing I would tell everybody at a very young age try to figure out options and if that's planting a seed with somebody five years later i i couldn't figure out why people on tv i'm like why the fuck would they want to hang out with these guys and i was like oh these are all the decision makers yeah

you know yeah it's like i'm trying to figure that out i'm sitting there with chris long in the corner being like this this is awesome. And then I'm looking across the hallway at some party. And then I'm thinking like, oh, that guy's with that dude. And that guy just got promoted to head of programming for that. And be like, all right. I was, uh, yeah, I was bad. I'd argue.

I continue to be really bad at those things. I used to, yeah. The other people that you work with that and like, again, this isn't even a bad thing, but like young me was like, what the hell is this? They're like always, they're always meeting with people. Like they're like,

hey, I'll just meet with this person. Like, why are you meeting with, you don't even work with them. Why are you meeting with them? I just want to like show face. I'm like, that's dumb. Like stop being a brown noser. But you know what happens?

Those people usually get promoted. Those people usually move around and get different opportunities because they, you know, the face time matters. And it took me, again, it's embarrassing. It took me a long time to like really figure,'m still not even good at it but like i just now

i at least understand the value of it yeah you have to humanize any decision about your career you have to and you know i remember the one time i did something like that i sent a bottle of spanish wine over to an executive at a table who i'd had battles with. I knew he thought I sucked. We were at the same spot downtown. And I don't know. I think I was just sitting at the bar. I might have been on a date. Look out, Russillo.

And I go, fuck it. I was like, hey, send him your best Spanish wine, something light for the table. And then the guy came up to me a couple days later and was like, you're all right. You're not a bad guy. I was like, I know I'm not, but if I can send over a $60 bottle of something

from Madrid to convince you of that with your fucking small plates. Moving on. I was wondering where it was. Wasn't Chipotle. I'll tell it is. Nice. Yeah. I was wondering where it was. Anyway. It wasn't Chipotle. I'll tell you that.

Okay. Rizzillo. All right. Here we go. Speaking of Zillow, you like it, huh, Kyle? You really like it on Zillow. I can't get enough, man. Cannot get enough. Thinking about changing your life?

One time. One search at a time? One square foot at a time. What's up, guys? Love the pod. 6'2", 240-something. Lots of weights. Too much Sam Adams. Trying to get more cardio

in lately. I'm in my 30s and can grab rim but nothing impressive. 240 grabbing rim dude. Impressive. I'm kind of like a combo of Bo Diao and Greg Ostertag on the court. Can you pass like Diao or are you just thick? Because Diao's

passing when he came up was incredible. I remember watching him in summer league. I think a lot of guys like to pretend they're Boris Dio because they have this inside-outside game. I don't think many of us can pass like Boris Dio can when he cared. Oster tag, intimidating force, heartfelt. Balding white guy that can defend the rim, streaky shooter if need be, but I'd rather find an open cutter and get boards.

All right, maybe he has a little Boris Dio in him. Real early 2000s glue guy. Anyway, I'll give you some help little background first my folks moved from texas where i grew up and live today so the guy's from texas lives in texas now to massachusetts uh when he was in college so at the time i didn't think anything of it i'd never been into england before and didn't really care about the area i started spending time up there with them first just on holidays, but then I noticed how much I loved it and eventually ended up spending most of my free time up there and bringing friends up to hang out.

They lived in Nashua, which is southern New Hampshire. The first few years, then moved to the Berkshires for my dad's job. When they were in Nashua, we'd spend all of our time in and around Boston. We did all the usual games at Fenway, hung out at the Harbor, North End, Freedom Trail, all the typical stuff, some North Shore and Cape as well. Man, they really got it in.

Then they moved to the Berkshires and they still live there now. I know there's an East Mass, West Mass thing, but whatever. Yeah, it exists. 413. What up? I love the Berkshires, man. Your boy's a big fresh

air guy. This guy loves fresh air. You hear about him? There are going to be people reviewing this pod going to be like, shout out to that guy who loves all that fresh air. The hiking around here is perfect. Half the back porches in their town have a view of some of the small mountain range or a creek running behind them. Perfect to hang out, put on some music, have a beer. It's also nice being so close to Southern Vermont, upstate New York. My buddies and I have found a few small lakes in Vermont. We love to swim at, then stop at some local micro-brews on the way home.

It's not too far from some of the Connecticut beaches around New Haven either. Maybe two hours max. All right. This is a... Dude, you'll go anywhere, huh? Go to the Rhode Island beaches first of all. I don't... The Connecticut beach thing, New Haven.

I mean, it's also, right. It's also funny too that like, cause you're from Texas, you think driving from the Berkshires to new London or new Haven or whatever, like, or too far,

like it isn't that far, but being Cerruti nine, like even Kyle of state New York, like when you're from that Northeast, yeah, you're a shout out Kyle. Even Kyle. Sometimes. Well, you know what I mean? Like it's not technically from that northeast, yeah, you're a shout-out. Even Kyle. Sometimes.

You know what I mean? It's not technically New England, but if something's two hours away for us, we're like, that sucks. People from the Midwest will drive eight hours and not even think about it. And not even leave the state. It's amazing. Yeah. Texas, these guys thinking, I'll hit up New Haven

for some pizza, and then I'll be at Portsmouth that day for a lobster roll. He doesn't even think anything of it. All right. All in all, I've spent about a year's worth of time here, but I love Massachusetts. Life in New England is my speed. It's weird. It feels more like home than my hometown

does now. I could move there tomorrow and be happy, but my wife doesn't want to leave Texas permanently. I think we covered one of these earlier this week. I get it. Her family's all here. We have a six-month-old son who we want to grow up close to family. All right, so you're not moving. With that being said, she gets how much I love New England and is willing to go

in on an investment property in the area. All right, second home. This is a win-win. We're not wealthy. We're not wealthy, but I do have a good job, and we live below our means, so we have some capital to play with.

All right, so it sounds like the guy's got a little cash squared away here. We own the home we're in and have an investment property a few miles away. The thought is buy a property and convert it to an Airbnb. We could have it rented out while we're in Texas and use it throughout the year when we're in mass. This is where we need some

Resillo help. I will not be opening myself up to scrutiny on this one. I can't imagine feedback when I get here. I'm torn about where to buy. On one hand, the highest demand would be in and around Boston, but the prices are insane. Same goes for the North Shore and Cape. I was thinking maybe Worcester

I think I will jump in here and say you should not be thinking about Worcester I've been to Worcester a couple times concerts, that's the only reason I ever go there he includes following up that sentence that Airbnb demand in Worcester seems low, I'm going to go ahead and confirm that it's probably low. Kyle, can you do a quick Airbnb search first week of August, Worcester, Mass, see what's

available there? Yeah, yeah. Okay. The thought is buy a property, convert to the Airbnb. The Berkshires wouldn't be a bad spot, but then we're about two and a half hours outside of Boston. We'll want to spend more time there. The winter demand might be better there, though, since there are a few slopes that aren't far. I'm even thinking maybe New Hampshire for the tax breaks. Uh-oh. But I don't

know how to gauge the demand. If you want to expand on that, I'm sure the audience would appreciate your New Hampshire tax break take. I don't know. I don't know if they would. Yeah. Tax-wise, New Hampshire would be the call. But again, the property stuff, believe it or not, I'm not a tax expert in all 50 states on real estate. There are some complications if you're renting a place out and then you go to sell it. There's the two and five year rule. I also ran into something where there was going to soon be a straight up transaction tax if I had been inside the house less than 24 months. So that's something else that you have to think about. But again, I'm not an expert on all these things. There's just a bunch of different things that you always have to think about. I'll ask you this.

Nobody loves the idea of a getaway house more than this guy. I don't fucking leave my town. All right. So the idea of it, oh, I'd like to do this. I can't even afford it right now. But the idea of the mountain getaway and all that kind of stuff, it is so great on paper. It feels great. Well, actually, you could argue it's not great on paper, but in your head, you're searching, you're thinking about things like, oh, that's pretty cool. Oh man, I'll be out. I got a creek out back, fly fishing. I want to be incredible. I'll get a year round license instead of just the 10 dayer. This is going to be great. license instead of just the 10-dayer. This is going to be great. And then you have it, right?

And then the person always goes, not me. The person will be like, I never fucking go there. And the thing is, you're in Texas thinking about Southern New Hampshire or the Berkshires. Are you actually going to use it? And are you going to use it enough now that you have a six month old? All right. Now I'm not going to ever tell you to not invest in another property. All right. The North shore Cape thing being too expensive. And you starting to hint towards Worcester tells me the budget isn't limitless here. 14 Airbnbs in Worcester, by the way, for August 1st, 14, 14, Some as low as 80 bucks, though, so I don't know how much the return is going to be. 80 bucks?

Yeah. I told you about, I was looking at Colchester, Vermont for an Airbnb, and there was a trailer that was available, and it said rekindle with your, I was like, rekindle or get fucking divorced. Like, if I rent this, I don't know, maybe I'll pitch that to Bargatze.

I think there's something there. You know, foundation of something. It sounds like the Airbnb has to be a desirable place. You need to figure out the balance between... Is there something outside of Portsmouth, New Hampshire? If you want to start talking about saving some money because, again, I don't

know all of the tech stuff for New Hampshire, but it's a little bit more advantageous. You're closer to Boston. You have to ask yourself this. If this were going to be something you're actually going to use enough, are you going to be... It sounds like you like the Boston part of this

and the beaches around that area than you would the Berkshire part of it because maybe Portsmouth gets you in the tourism game in some surrounding town. And again, you're still close enough to Boston, North Shore beaches, all that stuff. Well, hell, you can go to the beach in Southern New Hampshire as well. So there's some places in Southern New Hampshire that I've driven by, like some weird weekends up there on the way back where I was like, this is like Daytona, but like biker week. It is a rowdy little section. So I don't know if that place, cost-wise, you'd probably find something nice.

I don't know what the security deposit would be with the people that would rent it out there. I forget what town it is. It's incredible. I've never stayed there. I just drove through it once. So the other part of it when you're renting something out, are you going to pay a management company? You're going to have to. You could keep turning it over, especially with the Airbnb part of it.

Whereas if you're renting it out every single year and somebody else is covering your mortgage insurance. Another thing is that sometimes you have to play a little bit of a game on how the mortgage is going to work because maybe they're not going to just let you go 20% down straight on a brand new house, unless you think you're going to pay cash, the whole thing, then go ahead and do it. Obviously the mortgage products are probably a little bit tougher to come by right now. I'm not going to say that everything's impossible with that, but I know when I was still in Connecticut and because my condo was pretty modest and I was thinking about would I actually get a place in Burlington, all these different things. I mean, it was going to be a bit

challenging financially for some of the stuff that you just want to pull off on a second home. You know, sometimes places straight up would be like 50% down. I know there are other places that don't do that. So don't, it's not a hard and fast rule with all of this, but I think you have to be very honest with yourself and kind of see where the wife is at with this too is that is this a realistic dream it's an awesome dream to have i'm not saying no don't do it but i think we are all very unrealistic about how often we would use something and adding in the headache the headache of the constant turnover of having this be a destination Airbnb and finding something that is still desirable enough that fits your budget. And that's why I would say something

surrounding Portsmouth because Portsmouth's fucking awesome. You're not dealing with the North Shore Boston commute thing. You still are close enough to Boston unless you want to go deep in the woods where it's still a decent enough commute to some of the slopes. But is that going to be more demand? That's why I think Portsmouth actually makes a lot of sense because I think there'll be more year-round demand for you because the summers there are incredible, whereas in some of the other more mountainous areas that aren't close to anything, like I've done that drive on the back roads, and there's just a lot of places

where there's nothing there. And so you're in the woods, you're cracking a beer, a little widespread on the back porch. And then it's, then it's like four days later. And it sounds like you like to do a lot of stuff and it might be too slow for you. Um, even though the idea of it for a weekend seems amazing. I don't know anything about what you just said. It sounded like you were saying a lot of places that aren't Poughkeepsie, New York. So I've just been kind of glazed over. But what I was thinking, what I was thinking though, was what if it was like,

like it's, it's Boston-ish, right? It doesn't have like the most colleges around. Couldn't you make it like a, a single family college house and then only rent it to like graduate students or girls or something. And then just when you're ready to actually have your big summer thing, just make sure you don't renew anybody's lease for after the semester. Like, couldn't you just do that? Might be a little selfish. Like somebody who's been there for three semesters and you're like, yeah, this is now when I'm actually ready to come up here for two months. So you can't have it again. But you know, I feel like generally like women and probably older, older college students respect houses more. At least that's been my experience. So maybe you could do that. That way you wouldn't be worried that nobody's renting it. And you could lock people in for like a semester at a time or something like that. Just decide when you want to be done and then decide when you want to start up again. I don't know. issue is you it's not like you live in connecticut and you're thinking about buying a house at the cape or a condo with the cape and it's like a you know two hour drive or whatever you have to fly

from texas to boston then drive to the cape and ryan said like how many times are you actually going to do that it's probably not a ton um if you're using it as like a straight up investment property okay that's one thing but i mean you have to realistically realize that you are not going to be there like every month of the year or even probably six months of the year. You know, it's just it's just tough to actually logistically do that. I would say, you know, you're probably right. I would look at Portland, Maine, too. I'm a big Maine guy.

I love Maine. I know we said that about you. I mean, seriously, Maine is the most underrated state in the union. I will I will die on that hill. It's an unbelievable place. Not super close. I mean, you can't like Portland's not terribly close. It's kind of close to Boston, I guess, but it die on that hill. It's an unbelievable place. Not super close. I mean, you can't like Portland's not terribly close. It's kind of close to Boston, I guess, but it's not as

close I think it's as Portsmouth. The other thing I think you could think of is I know there are like condos available in the Cape Cod area and Brewster, like the center sort of area. I don't know if you're into like a condo thing or you want a house, but there's some affordable stuff there that you could very easily rent out. But again, you're going to have to be renting this out like most of the summer to probably break even if it's really an investment property. So it's whatever you're comfortable with. But I think, yeah, Worcester is a terrible idea. I hate to say that. I don't want to be a dick about it, but Worcester seems like a terrible idea. I think people from Worcester would agree

that it's a terrible idea. For tourism, Airbnbs, there's people from worcester agreeing with us on this one so i'm not you know we didn't say it's the worst city ever it's just you're starting to do a business here there's just a lot of stuff man and i'll tell you every accountant every single account is like why not just rent now unless you're going to hold this property as a long-term investment but it sounds like you have a property maybe take some money out you saved enough i mean look maybe you can do all these things and pull it off the The mortgage stuff right now isn't, well, I guess they're all going to say the same thing. We're still at historic lows, but it always makes you a little pissed off when you start doing the calculations on what the rates were versus what they are now with how much

your interest would get bumped up each month depending on the overall price of this. I mean, there's just a lot. There's a lot to get your arms around and we're never going to cover it all here and answering at the end of some dumb fucking podcast. But you just had a kid. It's six months old. Like Saruti said, how many times are you getting on a flight from Texas to New England to do this? Whether it's the down payment, the insurance coverage, someone managing the property, all of these expenses, man. I rented out two houses and for the most part, it went pretty well. But then there's one person that makes you never want to do it again. Ruining really nice stuff, arguing with me about it.

And I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to sit here and fucking argue. I'm not going to go to court over a mattress. I'm not just going to do it. But you're wrong. You know you're wrong. And you don't want to tell me anything differently. And that's it. It's just the end of the conversation. And then it leaves you going, this isn't fucking worth it. Because your margins are going to be pretty tight, I would imagine, on whatever you're getting in for rent and every part of your expense. We haven't even touched on HOAs, depending on what kind of thing you buy. So just be real. Unless you're super adventurous and your wife is super adventurous and you want

to be near your parents and all that kind of stuff, and she's totally on board and it doesn't ding you financially, this is a really hard thing to do. It's tough enough to get your first house, man. So if you can pull all those things off and you're that, but it's just, I guess there's just be so many people listening going, you're not going to really take full advantage of this thing to think of it as an investment property, unless you think you're hitting it at the perfectly right time, which I would say right now, I would wait to see what's happening with the economy the next year or so before we start buying up shit. Could be wrong on that. It's just whatever, kind of how I feel right now. And are you finding a place? Are you getting ahead of the next wave of the next place? Because all

the places you probably want right now have already been bought up and the prices are nuts. Are you going to be able to research enough to think that strategically you're buying in the right area that makes sense as the next wave of things happens? While some people will tell you we're at the beginning of a recession or it's already started which again a completely different debate that i'm not equipped enough uh with enough information to even feel comfortable saying whether or not i know that's happening um but i think so rudy nailed this one on that one and i don't want i don't want upstate new york kyle to feel left out he's on fire right now guy just yeah 12603 on fire absolute fire vass. Vassar College, Harvard on the Hudson.

Come on. Harvard on the Hudson. CIA, Culinary Institute of America, right there in Hyde Park. In Hyde Park, we have Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the Vanderbilt Mansion. Do I need to say more? That's where you can find me for the next couple weeks. Check it out. Sounds like you gotta talk to Kyle. Yeah. Maybe if the Kip's is the spot.

Did I hear Hartford on the Hudson? Harvard. Harvard on the Hudson. No. I was going to say, they need new marketing people. New England's rising star. Alright, thanks to Kyle and Steve.

Thanks for listening to Life Advice. God, these are so long sometimes. That's my fault. I'm going to make these quicker. Please check out the pod. Remember, it's a little podcast. Bring your Spotify. Outro Music