The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Russillo Book Club: Our First Civil War: 'Patriots and Loyalists in the American Revolution' by H.W. Brands. Plus, Life Advice.

Episode Date: July 19, 2022

Russillo is joined by historian H.W. Brands to discuss his book on the American Revolution (0:50). Then, Ryen answers some listener-submitted Life Advice questions (40:57). Host: Ryen Russillo Guest: H.W. Brands Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

today's special edition of the priscilla book club uh we will start with an interview on america's first civil war digging into the revolutionary war hw brands incredible historian also a professor uh this book is intense It puts you in the room in some of these conversations. He goes back and looks at all those correspondence to give you a real sense of the mindset of Benjamin Franklin and on, kind of taking on a different angle of this. And honestly, as always, as you always think you're in the worst times, the most divided times, which I know a lot of us have felt the last few years in this country, some very odd similarities to the news and concerns from a time now over 200 years ago.

So enjoy. Love talking history on the podcast, taking a break from sports. Our first Civil War was just out last year. H.W. Brands, who's also a professor at the University of Texas, joins us. And let's start with the timeline stuff here. There's so much research that must have gone into this to get the actual papers and to read these discussions from the actual characters involved was incredible. And it was just so much depth to this. But if we look back at maybe the 1750s and getting an understanding of the timeline before the Revolutionary War, we've got Loyalists.

We'd have the group that would call themselves the Patriots as they feel like they're not being supported by their mother country. But then you also, in their backyard, have the English and French battling over territories. So kind of give us a sense of the lead up probably about 15 to 20 years before this became militant. Okay. Being a historian, I probably have to back up farther than that. After the colonies were settled, after the English had settled colonies on the western shore of the Atlantic, the English who went out there were largely left to fend for themselves. It was their idea to establish the colonies. They weren't sent out by the crown the way Spanish colonists were.

So they went out on their own and they established these communities. And they got in the habit of thinking of themselves as a self-governing people. Now, that idea didn't really catch on with the government back in London, which thought, well, actually, we govern these folks, but there aren't enough of them and there aren't any problems, so we'll ignore them for the time being. But the time being became more than a century. So in three or four, going on five generations, colonists and their kids, they got in the habit of thinking of themselves as self-governing elements, but within the British empire. And there was no thought of leaving the British empire if only because they needed the protection of the British army and the British navy.

The colonies, along with Britain, were constantly at war with France. And when they weren't at war with France, they were at war with the Indian tribes. And so they needed the protection. And that was the case right up through the end of the French and Indian Wars, it was called in America, or the Seven Years' War in Europe in 1763. And it ended with a great victory for, I'll call them the Americans, but I'm really speaking of British colonists in North America and the British. And they beat their longtime foe and they drove the French out of North America. So it should have been time for celebration, but it turned out it wasn't because the British government had decided, you know, defending these colonies is an expensive proposition. We spent a lot of money

and we need to start recouping this. And furthermore, we did this for their benefit. And so they should contribute. And so the British government passed what the British government thought were just modest taxes to raise some money in the colonies. And they also tightened up on some of the trade regulations. And they looked on the Americans as these sort of wild people living across the Atlantic, not used to the reins of government. And the reins that the British imposed were pretty light compared with what people were experiencing in England. But then the Americans got all upset because from the American perspective, these taxes were new. These regulations were new. They weren't allowed to govern themselves as they

had become used to governing. And so the problem is you had these two incompatible views of where the American colonies stood in the British Empire. And now for the first time, there's no longer a French threat. And when the French threat went away, so did much of the threat from the American Indians, because the fact of having a competing European power to provide weapons, to provide incentive to go after the English colonists, that was one of the reasons that the wars with the Indians took place. So the worst thing that happened to the British Empire in North America was the victory of the British and the Americans over France. And it's at that moment that things start to fall apart. Perfect. That was great. You kind of answered it then

already because you put us in parliament, you put us in these discussions. I want to get to Ben Franklin here in a second, but to kind of follow up on that point is that I think we all grow up totally understanding our perspective of American history, being like, oh, the nasty English, you know, unbelievable, all these terrible. They were kind of beside themselves. What is up with these guys? Is that pretty fair to say? It is. But we have to be careful.

And speaking of the British, just as we're going to have to be careful in speaking of the Americans, because they're different opinions within this group. Now, my book is all about the deeply divided opinion among the Americans, half of whom roughly joined the British to fight against the other half of the Americans who insist on independence. Likewise, in Britain, there were people in Britain who lived well enough alone. In fact, the colonists, they spent a lot of their own money. They devoted a lot of their lives to defending the boundaries of our empire. And they're used to having things their way. So let's not provoke them. And they're not like people who live in England here. They're the separate people. population is growing a lot faster than our population is growing, maybe we should think about elevating some level of equality with the home country. But the people who ran the government said, no, no, no, that's not the way we're going to do it. They're colonists and they're going to remain colonists. So one of the reasons that I wrote the book is to draw out the fact that the American Revolutionary War was a political event, a divisive political event as much as it was a

military event. And what it came down to was, how is politics going to turn out in America that is between the patriots and the loyalists? How is politics going to turn out in Britain between those who say the colonies must remain part of the British empire and the other ones who say, look, if they don't want to be part of us, let them go. Great point on the loyalists and patriots, because really that's a big through line of this entire book. We realize Ben Franklin at this point, probably the most famous American. And as he's going back and forth to Europe, there's times where people say this guy could be considered maybe the most famous person in the world at that time.

His role is incredible. Not that I didn't know he was impressive, but whether it's his studies, whether it's his instincts, his ability to speak in a way that is so convincing and yet attacking all these different angles. the representation of the new colonies and trying to understand their way of thinking, well, he's becoming more and more of a patriot despite this great relationship with parliament, or at least members, not all members as we know, but there was enough respect there that they would take him in and try to just discuss with him what the hell was going back on in the States. I wrote an earlier book about Benjamin Franklin, and of course, he plays a large part in this book. And I long ago concluded that if you can explain how Benjamin Franklin became a rebel, then you can explain a very large part of the American Revolution. Because Benjamin Franklin should have been the last person to join any rebellion against the British Empire. Franklin was this world success story. against the British Empire. Franklin was this world success story. For your listeners, I would say, if we try to imagine of the people we call founding fathers, if there hadn't been an American Revolution or there hadn't been a founding, would we ever have heard of any of them? Would we have heard of George Washington? The answer is probably not. He became famous because he was the commanding

general of the Continental Army. If there's no war, there's no Continental Army. And he certainly wouldn't become president of the United States because there wouldn't have been an independent United States at that point. Thomas Jefferson, he becomes famous for writing the Declaration of Independence, but no independence, no declaration. So he would have been obscure. But Franklin, Benjamin Franklin is the only one we know we would have heard of because he was already famous before the revolution took place. Everybody became famous because of the revolution. And Franklin understood that his success in life owed to the context of the British empire in which he grew up and thrived.

Born to a family of very modest means in Boston in the first decade of the 18th century. He ran away from home at the age of 17 because he thought that the life in Boston was crowding in too much. I mean, he ran away and he wound up in Philadelphia, which was the most tolerant city, certainly in the British Empire, quite possibly in the world at that time. And this was perfect for Franklin because he was a very skeptical disposition. He wasn't a believer, he didn't join in any particular cause or faith. He just wanted room for his mind and ideas to wander. And he built this thriving business. Again, Philadelphia was the commercial capital of the North American colonies. And that was exactly

the place for Franklin to be. And he made his fortune sufficiently by his early 40s that he could retire from active participation in his business. And he handed the day-to-day affairs over to various partners. And then he indulged himself in his scientific pursuits. And that's what made him famous. And then he went into politics and he was appointed by the British Assembly to represent the people of Pennsylvania to the parliament in London. The British government, in particular, the British crown, the king, King George, appointed a governor. And the governor reported back to the British crown, the king, King George, appointed a governor. And the governor reported back to the king and told the king sort of what, well, very often what the king wanted to hear.

Whereas the people of Pennsylvania, they elected their own representatives, but not the governor. So they needed someone to tell the king and parliament what they thought. So they hired Benjamin Franklin. And Benjamin Franklin went off to London. And he loved London, just as he thought that Philadelphia was a huge improvement over Boston. London is a huge improvement over Philadelphia. And he becomes a citizen of the British Empire. He's lionized in London. And people love him. And he makes new friends. He makes new admirers. He travels all over. And everybody thinks that Benjamin Franklin is this

great person. And then the troubles begin with the colonies over the Stamp Act and the Tea Act and all this other stuff. And Franklin is not simply a loyal supporter of the British Empire. He's an enthusiast of the British Empire at this time. He thinks that the British Empire is the best thing going just so long as the British don't do some really stupid things. Do these small things that are going to alienate these Americans who are predisposed to like Britain. They speak English. They're proud of their English customs and the laws that they can look back on. And so Franklin says, if you could just lead them with a very light brain, then they'll be loyal forever. But the British government, for reasons internal to British politics, wants to put the screws to them. He keeps explaining, if you do this,

there's going to be a bad reaction. And they keep doing it, and they keep getting this bad reaction. So finally, Franklin throws up his hands. And by the time Franklin decides that the empire is simply not going to hold together, I, as somebody observing Franklin's history, concluded that if the British government was so foolish as to alienate Benjamin Franklin, then they deserve to lose their empire. Yeah. The real thing that I'd love, you know, as much as we can look back at history and you'll say like, oh, well, that's not that different from right now. But the Thomas Hutchinson papers, which he was lieutenant governor of Massachusetts, he's a lifelong politician, came from, you know, I would say a wealthy family at the times. And he was obviously a loyalist and he'd been appointed to other positions that were, you know, basically on the crown side of the argument. And they find these letters, right? Franklin finds these letters and it basically is proving that a lot of these guys are just on the tape. They're making money. They have these great positions. And then

Franklin in what at the time would be considered, I mean, it'd be questioned and criticized today, but at the time, these Hutchinson papers, he basically makes them public so that he can kind of get everybody, I don't know if he's trying to raise the revolution or expose certain things, but this also, I think, based on what you've said in your book, became a big turning point for how Franklin ended up being viewed back in the mother country. Yeah. So Franklin's role in the Hutchinson letters affair is, it's sort of typical Franklin in that he's a very canny guy. He understands what we would call the media, but just the way newspapers work, the way rumor worked and all of this stuff. And so Franklin was looking for a way to bring the Americans and the British government back together, because by this time, both sides are the acting governor of Massachusetts as the fall

guy for this. Because somebody delivers these letters to Franklin that they've stolen. And they didn't have photocopy machines in those days. They stole the letters. And Franklin read them. And there were parts of the letters that allowed Franklin to conclude that Hutchinson is the one who could be blamed by the colonists for the bad laws that the British government had enacted. Because Hutchinson says, in response to the Stamp Act rights, in which, by the way, his house was torn down board by board. And this was the major part of what he owned in life. So he had reason to be upset at the Boston mob, the Sons of Liberty. And what he says is that we're going to have to suspend some of the rights of Englishmen here. Basically, we're going to have to declare martial law to calm things down.

And when Franklin sends the letter to the Massachusetts Assembly, by the way, he tells them, don't publish these things. Now, I don't know if Franklin really thought they wouldn't be published, but he wanted to share so that the hotheads in Massachusetts could see it wasn't a conspiracy on the part of the king and parliament. It was bad advice from this one guy. So this would calm the hotter heads in Boston. But at the same time, if the British government were looking for a way to smooth things over, they could simply fire Hutchinson. The bad apple is gone.

We got the bad guy out of there. We're going to put in somebody new and we can start over again. Well, that's not the way it turned out. In fact, Franklin's role in revealing the letters was turned out well. So there was a duel that was fought. Oh, no. role in revealing the letters was turned on. Well, so there was a duel that was fought. Oh, no, did you leak the letters? Did you leak the letters? And before somebody got killed, Franklin said he had to raise his hand and say, I leaked the letters.

And at that point, then. Right. Just to interrupt. Just interrupt. Like two people, because there was so much confusion. This was such an act of it's not. Like, you can't do this. You can't share somebody's private letters during this time. Two guys were going to kill each other over this.

And finally, Franklin has to be like. That's right. This was beyond treason. This was ungentlemanly. Yes, yes, the worst. Right. And so, you know, and so Franklin didn't want somebody to get killed over this. So he said, you know, I did it. And here's why I did it.

I did it for this good reason. But by this time, the king didn't want to hear anything like that. And the king was not interested in trying to calm the ruffled feathers. He was trying to stick it to the colonists and show, you cannot defy British law. And I'm going to show you that. So Franklin is brought in. Once his arrest has been admitted, he's brought in before the king's closest group of advisors, the Privy Council, in this building that was charmingly called the Cockpit. Because at one time, fighting cocks, they actually fought on that site.

And the king's hitman, a guy named Alexander Wedderburn, who's the solicitor general, he rails at Franklin. He goes up one side of Franklin and down the other for over an hour, calling him every name a general could call. And actually, things beyond gentlemanly, things that were so bad that the published accounts of this diatribe had to bleep out the words. And so he's calling Franklin a traitor, a liar, a thief, an ingrate, everything. And Franklin is made to just sort of stand there and take it. Well, about halfway through this, Franklin concludes, I'm not going to have anything to do with these people because Franklin until now had been clinging to the idea that if reasonable heads on both sides could just get a hold of the situation, then the empire needn't fall apart because he understood what it meant for the British empire to fall apart. He likened the British empire to an elaborate Chinese vase that is wonderful but fragile.

And once it breaks, it's never going to be put back together again. And it really broke his heart because Franklin at one time in his life had toyed with the idea of moving permanently from Philadelphia to London. And he would have done it. He had all these friends in London, admirers in London, but his wife back in Philadelphia didn't want to leave. She was a Philadelphia girl and she was just going to stay there. But it's actually quite striking, intriguing to think what would have happened had he done that, had she decided to join him there. Then when all the troubles that led up to the american revolution took place he might very well have been on the side of the british

instead of on the side of the americans and on such sort of minor things his wife was afraid to sail um history sometimes turns you put us right in that room where he is being torn up and down by uh by i forgot the name again of, of the great orator at the time, Wetterburn, Wetterburn. So Wetterburn just laces into them. We get to read all of it, um, in the book for the most part. And I'm reading it going, okay, I can't wait to see what Franklin says, because this is, this is the peak of, this is the best movie anybody could see. This is everybody's favorite TV show. this is the absolute best form of entertainment i believe for the time because it was like we're all going to huddle and people are going to speak and and just reading these these passages from it

you know and going these guys are unbelievable with the way they can argue their points because it honestly became almost as important skill as farming you know especially for the people that were in this this role of shaping these worlds and to have franklin go yeah actually fuck this like i'm not which is i'm not going to talk that was like the genius move and all i'm not even going to respond and acknowledge what you just did and that's how i'm going to combat what you just did to me here and it was perfect. Yeah. I need a little bit more of the backstory there because Frankston for 10 years had been explaining. He had been explaining to everybody. He had explained it in the papers. He'd explained before parliament. And he realized after 10 years of explaining, the king didn't want to hear any of it. The king had made up his mind. And this guy,

Wedderburn, he was just sent to the bag man to do the job. And he would be wasting his mind. And this guy, Wedderburn, he was just sent to the bag man to do the job, and he would be wasting his breath. And the way I put it, I'll grant that this might be a bit of an exaggeration, but until that point, Franklin still thought there was hope. Franklin walked into that session an Englishman, and this is critical, because all these people, Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, they all thought of themselves as Englishmen. Englishmen living in America, but that was part of greater England. But on that morning, it was January 1774. This is just a month after the Boston Tea Party, which is the latest trigger in all of this. Franklin walks into that session an Englishman, but he walks out an American because he realized that after all the effort he's put in to hold the British Empire together, the folks in London don't want to hold it together. They want a war. So they're going to

get it. Let's stay on the Franklin thing for one more part here because his son, William Franklin remains a loyalist. He's still in the colonies um there's a massive divide between benjamin and william the only thing that kind of connects them is the grandson who's sent overseas to study but as you mentioned with hutchinson and which is always something you know me being from massachusetts that i can't help but always chuckle when every time i read some part of history from this era it's like yeah then the boston guys just destroyed hutchinson's house because the boston guys were like a different level then when washington shows up to work with the militias and he's like what is the deal with these guys the fear that if they had made the cop

the capital in boston they're afraid that that massachusetts was going to secede if they had you know like all of these things that are classic i'm like oh this is where everybody from massachusetts gets it but can you take us through the William Franklin part of where he's thinking, what is wrong with you people? And then why are you persecuted? Because this then became extremely dangerous as the war developed and continued, because we're talking about multiple battles over multiple years where he ends up in a jail. jail. Yeah. So here's one of the ironies of all this affair. And one of the things that students or anybody who's wanting to understand this has to keep in mind, and that is the people like Franklin, the rebels, were the ones who made the big leap. They were the ones who made the big decision. Sometimes it's tempting when you just remember what you were taught about the American Revolution in fifth grade. All the Americans rose up because the British were getting oppressive and they throw them off and they win and all this stuff. In other words, that it was sort of inevitable that this happened. Well, it wasn't inevitable

at all. And there were a lot of people who thought, like William Franklin, who thought, yeah, the Stamp Act was a dumb idea, but it's not worth busting up the empire over. And the T, same sort of thing. This is a grievance, but it's not a cause for trying to destroy the empire. And so people like William Franklin, they became called traitors for doing nothing. Because technically, legally, it was people like Benjamin Franklin and George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and John Adams who became the traitors. But then they called the ones who didn't join them in their treason, they called them traitors. So William Franklin is this guy, son of Benjamin Franklin, who's the governor of New Jersey, the royally appointed governor of New Jersey. And he just goes to work every day, does what he's

expected to, what he's been hired to do, what he thinks is right to do. And he wakes up one day and he's been called a traitor. He's committing treason for doing nothing different than he hadn't done the day before. The difference was that there was this rebel government in Pennsylvania that now presumed to make the laws instead of the old government. And because the governor would not join them in their rebellion, in their treason, they said, you're the traitor. So William Franklin, a guy who just used this steady line, finds himself in prison for treason. Normally, treason is a big deal. And usually the big deals, big crimes are acts of commission. You have to do something. But in the case of the American Revolutionary War, people like William Franklin were accused of treason

for sins of omission. They just didn't join the rebels. And that was part of the dynamic that I try to bring out in the book. Because once some people, once a group of people have made the leap, then they try to compel everybody else to join them in their leap. And the ones who don't are the ones who are branded and persecuted as traitors. Those are the loyalists. And so Franklin, William Franklin, at one point, like, all right, you're going to get arrested. And then we're going to put you in this cage. And it seems like we're going to prance you through towns as you know the picture

of of being a traitor despite as you point out he's like i'm not even doing anything i just want the status quo here yeah and then because of his status it seems like he's on a farm outside of hartford connecticut for a little while but it's like under detention it's almost like uh he has an ankle ankle it's pretty much. And it has to do with the fact that these people were and thought of themselves as gentlemen. And they kind of understood the rules of society. And so Franklin was allowed privileges. He could go for rides around where he was.

He was under extended house arrest. And the presumption was that he could do that as long as he did not assist the British. He is imprisoned by the Patriots as long as he did not assist the British or the fellow loyalists. And Franklin didn't buy into this. He did not accept the legitimacy of the people who had imprisoned him. And whenever he had a chance, he would sneak out information to the British on disposition of troops and where he thought things were going. And so, I don't know if technically is the right word, but he didn't behave as a prisoner the way his captors thought he should behave. So then they actually put him in real prison. So his house arrest was suspended and he was put in isolation.

Yeah, and he was what, above a bar? Like his cell was above a bar? Well, actually, so this is something else to keep in mind. Because these new governments were not prepared to imprison people. And so what do you do? Prison is something that was rarely done, like at the Bastille. And they didn't have the big prison industrial complex that we have today. And so what do you do? And when most of the soldiers

were taken prisoner, very quickly, they were paroled. They weren't, for the most part, kept in prisoner of war camps. I do write about some of the prison ships that the British had in New York Harbor. But what they would do as quickly as possible, they would either exchange them or they would parole them. And the parole meant you would promise that I will not fight anymore, not just let me go home. And it solved the problem of who's going to feed the prisoners, who's going to guard the prisoners, how are we going to transport the prisoners. But in all of this, it's worth remembering too, that this was on the scale of military affairs of the next couple of centuries, or like the remembering too, that this was on the scale of military affairs of the next

couple of centuries or like the Napoleonic Wars that are going to happen shortly after. This was small scale stuff. The Continental Army never had more than 15,000 men under arms. So that's just a small group of people. And the British didn't have any more than that. so you know this you could do all of this in a reenactment in a football stadium no it's crazy and honestly too like when you're thinking of the continental army i think you kind of grow up thinking like okay all these guys took to arms because of the duty of their country it's like no like they expected to be paid and they had they had enlistments and then they could not come back and you know to think of you of the people that actually and we you know i've read about this before and you hit on it big time again with washington valley forge like

congress once again refusing to pay for any of these troops handing them like promissory notes and washington trying to keep it together and And it's like, we want the freedom, but like this had to be an absolute desperate group of men at this time to even put up with this stuff and put themselves in what was an awful situation. And then on top of that, oh, now you're going to fight. And they were losing half of these battles anyway. Yeah. Well, one of the things that Washington figured out very early on is he didn't really have to win the war. He just had to avoid losing the war. Because going back to something I said earlier, ultimately, this was a political decision on both sides. And as long as the Americans were

willing to sustain the idea of revolt, Washington could fight forever. He could just go back into the hill country and the British couldn't chase him there. When they got very far from the coast, the British superiority on water pretty much went away. And so Washington merely had to keep fighting until those political parties in Britain finally had it out and said, you know, this war has been going on too long. We started all this to try to balance the budget. Now the budget's gone further out of balance than ever. The British had the option of just saying, enough, we're going home. The way the United States finally did in the Vietnam War and the Afghanistan War. So the British were in that same position with the Americans in the American Revolutionary War. It was the Americans who were

fighting on their home turf who could just, we'll keep fighting this for a generation or two, if necessary. And so Washington really never had to win any battles. And the first really significant battle that he won was Yorktown. And there, there were more French soldiers and certainly French ships than American soldiers. But even that, even that didn't destroy the British armies or Navy's ability to continue fighting. What it did do was to persuade the British back in London, this war is too expensive. It's a cost loser, so we're going to end it. I want to jump into the Benedict Arnold storyline because every time I read about him, you grow up as a kid, I just always think how amazing it is how long the idea of a phrase can live. We're coming up on a long time, a few centuries here, where if you said Benedict Arnold to somebody else, you would still understand it in today's vernacular, which is pretty

crazy. But then you read about it, you go, okay, well, you know, he's a pretty good soldier, got injured, that set him back. He wasn't getting promotions that he thought he was going to get. Everybody gets mad when they don't get a promotion. and then you kind of become that guy where you're so mad that you're never gonna get a promotion again um and then he ended up having a relationship where it was clear it was leaning towards loyalist side and then he was basically going to give up um west west point you know it's essentially what would historically be thought of as West Point.

And then basically he couldn't be more busted through the whole thing. I guess I, look, I'm not saying Benedict Arnold had a point, but I at least understand the path to his conclusion to betray his country. The way I tell my story is

I try to identify how the world looked to the people that I look at. And from their point of view, how did it make sense that they took the decisions that they took? And I identified several, three or four people who are patriots, same number who are loyalists. And then I got Benedict Arnold. Benedict Arnold is a patriot, and then he's a loyalist. And in every case, individuals make these decisions part in response to the larger, what I call the arc of big history. So what's going on between the countries. But then there's also the little history part of it, the personal side of it. That comes out

when I talk about Benjamin Franklin and William Franklin. With Benedict Arnold, I had to include him because he goes from one side to the other. Actually, he went from one side to the other and back again. And to try to figure out what motivated him. And you've identified some of the motives. So he was probably the best soldier. He was the best battlefield commander in Washington's army. And Washington recognized this because Washington himself was a good commander, but he couldn't be everywhere at all times.

And so he needed good subordinates. And Arnold really had that kind of gift. He could motivate men. He had an understanding of sort of the lay of the battlefield and how the pieces fit together. And he was brave and he would go right into the heart of battle. And so Washington kept promoting him. But because the American national government was made up of 13 different state governments,

none of whom recognized the sovereignty of the central government, when they made promotions, they had to balance the interests of one state against another state against another state. And in some of these cases, Arnold was left out. And Arnold came to believe that his talents, his accomplishments were not appreciated. And he was somebody who was kind of very sensitive on this subject. And then he meets and falls in love with this woman who's basically a loyalist at heart. And he wants to please her and woo her. And by the way, I mentioned that he was, for his actions, one thing, he was court-martialed and that was crazy. Not only I'm not promoting, I'm court-martialed on these trumped-up charges. And so he found

to feel unappreciated. And then he could also say, you know, this question between the patriots and the loyalists, it's a close call. It could go either way. Maybe we'd be better off if we remained part of the British Empire. And what if the Patriots lose? Then what are we going to do? So they all are trying to guess who's going to win. So they try to think, in principle, which is better? What's going to be better for me? What's my fate going to be? How's it going to affect my family? As you mentioned, the soldiers who didn't get paid. It was bad enough for them not getting paid because at least they had rations, at least they could eat, but their families at home weren't getting rations. And so a bunch of the soldiers mutinied. This was the biggest problem that Washington had. The soldiers were mutinying, not because they were tired of fighting, but they

were tired of fearing that their children were starving. And so they had to go home and bring in the crops. They had to go home and defend their families against the Indian attack and all this other stuff, and nobody else was. And so, but it was always a balance because Washington could say, all right, if you leave, you know, the Congress owes you this amount of money. If you leave, you will never get that because you will have deserted. So, you know, stick around and maybe you'll get paid. Oh, by the way, and if you leave, I'll shoot you. So it was a moment in American history when everybody had to make these big decisions. And in very many cases, these were life and death decisions, not simply for them,

but for people that they love. And they made them with really imperfect information. Nobody knew until it ended how this was going to turn out. And if you had known how it was going to turn out, then you, well, probably half the people would have made a different decision than they made. Yeah, I can't fathom. You know, again, we have so many distractions in our world today and have had you know as technology but that your day and the day after that the days after that for as many years as this went on that every day was consumed with the idea of i'm walking down the street depending on which city i'm living in am i a loyalist city in my patriot city you know new

york was very very heavy loyalist and it almost became this loyalist hangout for years. And then you're thinking, okay, well, we just give them New York then. And now they're kind of surrounded, even though they think they have dominance over this major port, which it ended up being. But the think of the day to day of like just being at a pub or being at the market or being at any of these things where you were always on guard about who it was you were talking to and where their loyalties lied and the amount of spying that was going on is just incredible. Well, so I tell my students just, I mean, I list a little bit earlier when this would make sense to say, well, think of Sarajevo in the 1990s where the country is falling apart. You don't know who your friends are. You don't know who's going to be shooting at you the day after tomorrow.

So that's the situation. And as you say, it's really hard for us. We've gotten so used to the idea of living in this stable country where we get a pretty good idea that tomorrow is going to be like today and next year is going to be pretty much like this year. But it wasn't so in that decade that started in 1775 when the war begins and doesn't really end until 1783 when the peace treaty is signed. And that's the part, I've read a couple of interviews that you've done in a follow-up to this book in preparation for this. I've noticed that there seems to be a constant theme of where the person interviewing you is trying to get you to agree to that there's some parallel of today to when this happened and be like, hey, we're real divided right now.

And I've noticed that you've been like, no, it's not even close to the same thing. Like, it's just, it's not, you can't, if you think that way, you can't fathom, you're not doing honest, you're not paying attention to the book to understand the day-to-day of this, that I think was just, just, I mean, you know, it's the birth of a country. So you're still not quite sure what the hell is even going on. Yeah. I would say as divided as we are today, thankfully, we're nothing like as divided as we were back in the 1770s and 80s, for that matter, and then we were in the 1860s. I'm a historian rather than a predictor, so I don't know where we're going, but for now, we can take comfort in the fact that there have been times in American history that have been a lot worse

than we are today. I have two quick things as we finish up here, if you don't mind. Sure. Yeah. I love anytime I'm reading about the Northern borders of the United States, how flippant it almost felt at times was like, Hey, do you want Canada? Like, well, we really want the West Indies. And it's like, well, wait, do you not, did you never want Canada? And it's like, Hey, where's the Canada thing? And like, look, I went to school in Vermont. I thought geographically, it made all the sense in the world that once I got to the Canadian border, I was like, oh, okay. The topography alone is your answer for why it breaks here. But it could have been so different for almost no reason whatsoever if some side had pushed a little bit harder.

At least that's the way it feels every time I read, especially on the eastern side of the Canadian border. Oh, it is striking how at the end of one of the earlier wars, when the British had wound up in control of both Canada and the French colonies in the West Indies, they're trying to decide Canada, West Indies, and they said, ah, you know, we'll keep the West Indies and give them back Canada. Now, to imagine that a country that is as big in itself as the United States is today was worth less than just a couple of small colonies. But this gets back to the question of whose political interest was it to keep the West Indies? And there were very wealthy planters and merchants who had business in the Indies, and there were no connections like that. And besides, Canada in those days seemed like a

very big, cold, empty place that nobody would ever want. No disrespect to Canadians. No. But I mean, even along the Western border, when I read a story that Stark had written, it was pretty much like, yeah, I guess this is good. Are we good here? I guess we could keep going and claim this area. We're like, ah, nah, let's just keep going the other direction. I mean, it sounds so absurd to think that that's where these lines are drawn. And I'm sure different stories can be thrown at me. No, it's technically this, and then the parallel, okay, fine. But I've just read about it enough historically that it just seems to be so dismissive at times like man that could have gone a completely different

way where you know we'd have 10 more states north of new england um because of you know at least at that part of canada for whatever it was was popularized all right last thing franklin is working the french um prior to yorktown cornwallis's surrender the maneuver by washington marching his people down there throwing people off the scent the french dominance uh nautically and all these different things that led to it and cornwallis basically getting himself stuck in yorktown and everybody freaking out that he surrendered so um the french really come to the rescue here for their own self interest and to also prevent the expansion of the brit Empire. The way it's pitched in your book, and the way Franklin said,

hey, you help us with this, you're going to have this, you're going to have this, you're going to have this, it feels like that deal did not really work out for the French the way they expected it to. Is that fair? Yeah. Yeah. And it shows that Franklin was really a good salesman, that he could persuade the French to do something that turned out not to be in France's long-term interest. And it's one of the reasons that

the French king, Louis XVI, was very skeptical of Franklin. He thought in the first place, I don't trust this American. But in the second place, let's consider what those American rebels are doing. They are overthrowing their king. You know, I wouldn't like this idea that you can overthrow your king to catch on. There's no telling where it might end. And for the Louis XVI, of course, it ended in the guillotine. So he was right.

He should have been skeptical. H.W. Brands, our first Civil War. It's terrific. I enjoyed the amount of times where you're going through and you were reading straight from the dialogue of this time is fantastic. So I hope uh are getting many praises for all the work you put into this

so thanks again thanks ryan my pleasure you want details bye i drive a ferrari 355 cabriolet what's up i have a ridiculous house in the South Fork. I have every toy you could possibly imagine. And best of all, kids, I am liquid. So, now you know what's possible. Let me tell you what's required. Okay, life advice. We got a couple good ones here.

Our man is checking in. Hawaii or family? You guys been to Hawaii? Honeymoon there. Yeah. The trip seems daunting to still be in the US. It's actually, that's the thing is it isn't from LA.

It feels daunting. Yeah. For you, I flew 11 hours straight there and it was fun. Like, what is it? Is it like a six hour? It's like a New York flight from here.

Yeah. It's quicker. Oh, shucks. Look out on the way back on the way back, on the way back, seriously, when you fly back from Maui and you get to LA and you live in LA, you'll go, why don't I do that way more often? That's so easy. And it really is that great of a time. There are very few places that LeBron James and Tiger Woods actually exceeded the hype. I would

put Maui on the Tiger LeBron line of when you get there you're like all right let's see how great this really is and you go you know what if you don't like maui it's kind of on you i highly recommend the maui kawaii if you can do both because they're different speeds like maui is a little bit more happening kawaii is just like it's a paradise there's just nothing around you it's amazing i've been non-committal to this uh maui invitational invite from titus and tate now i think i'm just going to say I'm in there. If it's a New York flight, let's go. Yeah, you not going to Maui doesn't make any

sense whatsoever. And the thing is, in some of the more populated areas there, there's a couple off the beaten path dives that you would like. I could see you... Put the word out that Nephew Cal's coming to town. Yeah, yeah. I could see you doing well there

well i'm excited i'm going guys if you're listening i know you are there you go all right i'm trying to think what movie that is i have all these lines in my head for movies and i'm certain i don't know same thing i forget i have to like text my friends big what the hell i've been saying this for three years i don't even know what movie is from anymore yeah um i think i know what it is now. But it was like the guy's bullshitting the other guy. And he's like, I think you would do well here. You could do well here.

But that's not bullshit about Maui. All right, back to the email. Checking in six foot sneakers because that's how they measure in the league. 40 time in high school was a 4-4, then a 5-flat by my next attempt with the same coach clocking in. All right, because I was going to say every 4-4 from high a lie uh steady hand if you ask me not relevant info i'll drive a toyota prius what's up 40 mile uh 50 miles per gallon is real nice these days haters and their pimped out trucks getting 12 miles per gallon can keep hating so a little uh you got some environmental stuff in there some economic stuff all right so he comes to you guys seeking advice

on one of life's toughest decisions, deciding to live close to family or not. My current situation is I live in the North Shore, Oahu with my wife and my baby girl that just turned one. I graduated from BYU Hawaii a few months ago. Let the Mormon jokes fly. I think we're going to let those pass right now. With a business and sports management degree. We started an Airbnb cleaning

business about two years ago, hiring students, pulling in at least six figures a year and still growing. Wow. Real entrepreneur. Both our families live in Orange County, California. Mine's Huntington Beach. My wife's in San Clemente. So about 40 minutes apart. We love our hometowns and want our kids to have a close relationship with grandparents, aunts, uncles, as they're really important in each of our childhoods. On the flip side, we love Hawaii. For the last three years, I'd be happy staying. For the last three years, they love it.

And I'd be happy staying for a long time. Although the children and the educational stuff isn't world class. There are a lot of pros to raising kids here. The ocean, mountains, surfing, hikes, snorkeling, wildlife. Hey, we've seen the pamphlets. Not a whole lot of iPad time with the kids around here. If we move, we either sell the business or try managing it from off island, which seems like a headache. I'd need to find a job or start another business in California if we made the switch. The benefits of being in the corporate world would be nice, but I like the flexibility, tax breaks, and chase of the entrepreneurial life. life advices that touch on some tax stuff. So if that makes you squeamish, you know, we'll see you in a week.

All right. I love my family, but the distance is pretty comfortable. I'm never going to get over the tax thing. I'm sorry. We're just going to be, they're going to be sad. Yep.

Things are going to be sad. And every now and then I'm Sam. All right. So I love my family. This is the emailer. Distance is pretty comfortable for me. So he's okay living in Hawaii. FaceTime helps, but there's less opportunity for family drama. My wife seems more drawn to move back and wants me to pray about it. Okay. I figured I'd check with God and you guys. Wow. Funny line. Good line. Appreciate that.

Before letting her know my final thoughts, also if we get Kyle's version of the NBA trade value chart, that would be great. Thanks. I did wonder after Bill's trade value chart if we should do 30 ringer staff members and draft our top eight rotational guys and make it a pod.

It might be too short for Bill's liking. Yep. Yeah, 16. 16 each. Yeah. Yeah, 16. 16 each. Yeah, no, I mean, like, it's a seven-parter. I think it'd be actually pretty funny if we did it. You just do the top eight. Okay, back to the email here.

These are all good problems, actually, right? Like, none of these things are terrible. The attraction of Hawaii, we all just talked about how much we liked it. Kyle, I'm sure, is going to like it as well. You're absolutely right. You kids get a different upbringing there. It's credible opportunities, all that kind of different stuff. If you don't like the educational system around you, though, that's a real problem. And I think because the daughter, as you said, just turned one, you have some time to think

about this, right? So that would be, I think, a joint conversation with the wife saying, okay, when the wife wants to move back closer to family, I don't know one guy that's won that argument. I don't have one friend that was like, yeah, she wants to move closer to family. Because usually the wives want to, it just appears to be in my experience when I think about my friends that are couples. When the wife wants to be closer to family, I don't know any guy that's won that argument going, that's great, we're not doing it. I'm not saying it's never happened. It just hasn't happened a lot in my friend group.

I can think of almost zero times, to be honest with you. It sounds like the prey on it is more like come to my side at some point because it's happening. Yeah, right. Work your way over to my side in the next couple of months. Now, having family close by when you're starting a family is incredible. It allows you freedom that other people sort of thing. Yeah, right. Like work your way over to my side in the next couple of months. Now having family close by when you're starting a family is incredible. It allows you freedom

that other people don't have. It's why a lot of people end up staying at home. We've covered this. I am in favor of that. If you get along with the family, I think it's great. Sounds like you're a close-knit group

and all these different things. Now on the business side of things, that seems challenging to run this business from the mainland while somebody else is likely skimming a bit on the cleaning business. And maybe it's really successful. Maybe you have a goal. You tell your wife, like, hey, by the time she's three, let's think about moving back to the States. Well, I know it's still the United States, but play along here. The Continental.

Number 48, I've heard. The 48. Yeah. There you go. Is there a way you could build the business up to a level where somebody would want to buy it? That'd be great. I would think somebody else would just sort of wait you out and then go, why don't I just start my own thing and then poach your clients?

Especially if this guy's gone. There's certain businesses that make a lot of sense to buy. I'm not saying this one's impossible to do it, but you're clearly making some money here. So what I think I would do is know that I'm going to lose this argument. It doesn't seem like you have that heart. This isn't a bad compromise for you. You seem to be open about moving back to California because of the family and all that stuff. And you get along with them well too. So I would try to figure out how to maximize the next couple of

years, not be in a hurry to do this. See if there's any way this could be feasible for you to manage it while you're back in the States, which I don't love that unless there's somebody who you absolutely trust to run this and you take care of them. If you're going to hire somebody to take care of this business while you're basically never going to be there again, and you're just looking at the books and having to trust this person probably blindly, take care of that person if you're going to hire them. Because what you don't want to do is try to figure out a way to keep costs down where this guy starts figuring out the numbers

because he's looking at all your numbers and then he thinks all of a sudden he's being taken advantage of. And that's going to end up being far more costly than just taking care of the guy and maybe bumping him up 10 grand, 15 grand more a year to go ahead and do this thing if you want to keep your foot in the door in this business,

if you were to say ever want to go back, but it doesn't sound like you're ever going to go back once you move to keep your foot in the door in this business, if you were to say ever want to go back, but it doesn't sound like you're ever going to go back once you move to the States. So that could be part of the plan, but maybe the better part of the transition would be for you to start planning, you know, return to California in two or three years. And what I mean by that is like,

whenever I'm moving or whenever I'm making a huge decision, I am putting things like I'm putting in things ahead of time where I'm starting to like educate myself in an area. I'm reaching out to people that live in that area. I'm thinking about different opportunities and I'm not even close if I'm going to do it. Right. I'm not even sure I'm making the decision, but I will prep for a major decision. You know, a lot of times I can seem like I'm just like,

hey, fuck it. I'm just doing this. That doesn't happen unless I've really thought about it from every single angle, especially when it's something that's important. So maybe you start flirting. Maybe you start looking at right now, hey, where would I live in California? What makes sense? What could I do there? Can I transition this business there? Ask around. Talk to somebody else who does this kind of thing. If there's somebody that's willing to maybe talk to somebody who's potentially competition in the future, but you can prep for things you're not actually going to do. And the great thing about that is that it actually helps you basically inform the decision as much as you possibly can. And I think sometimes people feel like they're up against it.

And then all of a sudden you're like, all right, well, we're just going to move when it doesn't take really that much extra time, you know, sitting on a weekend, just start thinking of a list of things that are important to you. And then that can kind of like make the decision for you. And then I think subconsciously, a lot of times too, we'll sort of, we'll just kind of do things that we know deep down, like, oh, I didn't really do all that stuff because I didn't deep down really want to leave. So again, you know, I think it probably went a little long on that one. So go ahead, Kyle. Well, that stuff's fun. I like Zillow. I like Apartments.com.

I could spend hours. But also, it sounds like you just pretty much need to figure out how much time you have. It's not really like will they, won't they. It's more like when they. So I think you should figure out exactly how much time you have or at least a ballpark. And then that could probably inform your decisions there. I don't really have too much. I'm on your wife's side only because I always want to go back home. So I'm just I'm not the right person to take your

side in this. But I just think you got to figure out how much time you have because it's really a matter of when. Yeah, it sounds like if he could have transitioned the business, it would have like that would be an option. And I don't know if he's putting that off because he doesn't want to leave and doesn't want to make that like an obvious thing to his wife or if it's like impossible uh but i will say i'm kind of with kyle on this i think it's just like life is hard one if you're living in a vacation destination like that that's hard too i think that's kind of under you know underrated especially if you're raising kids like i just remember like we used to go to the cape all the time and people that live at the cape you know they're like yeah it kind of sucks because like and i guess ryan you

know this from the martha's vineyard thing it's just like a tough life. I think growing up on like a vacation destination like that. So just think about your kids from that perspective. And then also life is just easier. Like, if you're around your family to help out with the kids to have the relationships, all that stuff, like you sort of like grow apart from them, which sucks. Like, you know, we have some family on the West Coast, and it's just, it's just hard to like see them and FaceTime's not the same. And when and when they start having kids like you just don't really grow up in their lives and as much as you could say hey you know we'll make an effort to get over the mainland i said it again doesn't make any sense um as much as you can make an effort to get over there it's great but it's just it's never going to be the same so if your wife kind of values that you and you even deep down kind of value that i think you kind of know the answer to the question here yeah it's funny though you took a negative approach to growing up in a place like this, where I think it's just hard to leave paradise. Like once you become accustomed to that whole pace,

you know what? It's real there. That whole Island thing. It's, it's very real. It's not bullshit. It reminds me of like when I went to Jamaica and I just go this granted, I'm in Jamaica.

I'm not in Brookline. It's supposed to be different, but there's, there's a real, I don't know, not to sound like all, like when I went to Jamaica and I just go this granted I'm in Jamaica I'm not in Brookline it's supposed to be different but there's there's a real I don't know not to sound like all zen but there's a real spirit I think to some of these places that are just different from other other spots and you know I said I wonder if you're so into it so accustomed to it that you'll have this realization that when you leave but this is what I'm always a big, you can always move back, right? You can always move back.

You could be in California. You can like the family part of it. Other things may not be working. And maybe the both of you miss it. You know, you sounds like you're young enough. I'm a big, big fan of people moving at a younger age because it either makes you

appreciate the place you move from, or you experience something different. I think it just educates you. It makes you more, not necessarily worldly, but I don't know, man, just never leaving a town just to get out of town,

even if not even just for college because not everybody's going to go to college, but just trying something different can very many times, or very often, excuse me, make you appreciate the thing that you want to come back to.

He's also not moving to like South Dakota. Like California is still a pretty awesome place to be if you like nature and the beach and all that stuff. So like, you know,

it's not the end of the world. Yeah. Right. Shout out to South Dakota. Okay. Uh, this one is called greedy. This one's called greedy friend.

Um, big fan, long time, 29, five, 10, one 70 skinny fat. I've got an issue with one of my best and longest friends, Joe.

He lives in Indiana where sports betting is legal. Shout out, Joe. I don't know if he's going to. Maybe this is a whole lesson to try to get Joe on their side of things. The rest of our group is in Ohio where we grew up and sports betting is not yet legal. We're all big sports fans. From time to time, we'll ask Joe to place a bet or parlay for us. We Venmo him the money.

I realize this is a slight inconvenience, so it's not something we ask of him often. Recently, Joe has been taking service fees on the bets we place. 5% of the winnings is his current rate. It exploded with my father-in-law, and I had to place a parlay that won a decent amount of money. This has caused quite an uproar in the group as the Ohio crew says we would not charge him

to do us a small favor. And this is not that big of an inconvenience when it's at the tip of his fingers. Curious to hear your thoughts. Love the show. All right. I'm imagining because you guys are all into gambling this much that, you know,

he's covering all of your losses on any bet that you're placing, right, the VIG on both sides of this. We'll just get that out of the way. I can't imagine that that would be part of any of this. This guy's just straight up going, whatever you win, I'm taking 5% to touch some buttons. Now, if the payouts, let's say a few thousand for a parlay here, and you feel like he's taking a few hundred bucks from you and it's bullshit. I get not liking it, but I also would wonder if he's like, oh, cool. Think how quickly we all can be annoyed by the dumbest shit.

We collectively, if we were to just take a step back and be like, why am I going to let this bother me? But I'll do it too. I'll be like, what the fuck? I had something happen to me the other day in a transaction where I felt like the guy providing the service didn't tell me how much it was going to cost. I've done a few thousand dollars worth of business with this place. And I was like, hey, I want you to come check out some other thing and install something. But before we do, we can stop at my house at my house and he's like well I have to charge you if I go to your house I'm like yeah it's seriously going to take two seconds for you but I can't seem to get this thing to work and I know you'll fix it immediately and he's like well I have to charge I go I'm not

asking you to do it for free I'm like I'm just asking you to look at this quick thing on the way he goes yeah absolutely no problem and I was giving him all this other business and he uh he came by he fixed it in two seconds he was an hour late and then goes 130 bucks i'm like come on really i go don't you think you should have told me it was going to cost that much because if i knew it was 130 not that i can't afford it principle of the thing i was like i would have just tried harder or just asked you like, hey, what should I actually look for on this one? Because now I'm taking you somewhere else to do a job that's going to cost way more

money, which I'm totally fine with and recommend you to other people. And I was really annoyed. Now, I took a step back the next day. I was like, should you have been annoyed? I go, he should have told me how much it was going to cost. Because even he was like, yeah, this is super pricey and it's stupid. But I showed up and this is what it costs. I was like, all right been annoyed i go he should have told me how much it was going to cost because even he was like yeah this is super pricey and it's stupid but i showed up and this is what it costs i was like all right i get what it costs you should have told me because then i would have just figured it out on my own but i figured it was convenient because we're going to

something else all right it's taking way too long the point is is that that's an example of me being annoyed by something that maybe i shouldn't have been as annoyed about but i'm not telling you i don't think we ever pretend to be perfect on this podcast. So he probably gets so fucking annoyed every time one of you guys is like, hey, can you put in 50 bucks for me tonight on the Pirates under? And he's just like, oh. And again, does it take him a long time? No, but it's not his bet. So he's sick of it.

He's sick of doing it. So at some point, you agreed to the 5% transaction fee to continue doing this. And yes, guys that gamble a lot are always kind of looking for a bit of an edge. This sounds exactly like one of my friends where it'd be 10%. He would have charged us more and he probably would have fucked us and not paid us immediately because he was kind of a shitty dude when it came to gambling. Still like the guy. But the point is, it's like, try to remember how easily we can be annoyed by stupid little things. Like I'll have this Venmo thing.

I'm like, oh, I got a Venmo. The Venmo thing takes 30 seconds tops, maybe less. But it's just a little thing in the day where if he's doing this multiple times, maybe you should figure out some sort of max payment that cancels out the just raw 5% on something and that would make it better. But if you've been doing this and been cool with the 5% all along, yeah, it'd be nice if he did it for free, but he didn't want to do it. Because I think if any of you were doing this individually for a bunch of other people all

the time, and then it's like, you're going to pick up food and then somebody texts you before seven o'clock first pitch. It's like, can you make sure that you get the Rays series for the series for me? Eventually he's just going to get super fucking annoyed despite the fact that yes you were right it does not take that much time kyle yeah i think a i don't think ohio is going to be that far behind i think we're going to be reading that in the fan duel byline one of these days anyway so i don't think it's going to be that long great addition great addition to the answer right there i think i also think yeah i think the cap is pretty good. It's like, you know, five years, 100,000 miles, whichever one comes first. Right. It's like, which there is a hard cap. And also I was going to say you could try. I mean, it sounds like he originally I was like, well, you guys just boycott him for a month. See what happens. But then you were like, hey, guys, he doesn't want to do this for you. And if he recently added the 5% thing, it's probably because it really was annoying as hell. So, yeah, I think just try to maybe work out something

where everyone would be happy. It's like, listen, if I win $3,000, I'll give you $100, absolutely. But I don't know. I think... That's what I was thinking, Kyle. It's like a blackjack table situation where if you win, you throw him a couple chips

and everybody's happy kind of thing. It doesn't have to be a fixed price. Now, he probably doesn't trust you and he might not know that you're actually going to pay him, but that's kind of how I think the transaction thing should work. But are there not bookies in Ohio? Could he just find a bookie in Ohio? I don't know what's going on here.

It sounds like my guy's Venmo is going to be under some suspicious circumstances come spring. It's like if he'd just been sending and getting and sending thousands of dollars every, I don't know. Can you get Venmo? Can you get audited off Venmo? I'm just thinking like six guys, seven guys,

multiple times a week just flooding his Venmo with stuff. I think people would be like, wait, what's going on? How long you guys been doing this for? So, I mean, he might even have something coming down the pike that he's not going to be happy about. So, I don't know. I think he's doing you a favor and you should try to work it out where everyone's happy. There you go. Yeah, cap. I like it. 5% to a hard cap on any transaction. He should still agree to it, right? Because if he's doing this, then he likes that 5%, but he's still

even with the 5%, again, you guys are probably doing $20 teasers every now and then, and if you're losing them, he's not even getting anything out of that. I'm annoyed just thinking about getting that text. Right. That's what I'll say. If it was more than once, I'd be like, dude, what are we doing? We're talking about multiple guys doing this,

and so for each of those guys, we would do the same thing. Okay, cool. Have 10 guys over the course of a week be texting you about bets that they want to get in. I get that there's probably a transaction that happened where you're like, this is wrong. But I don't know that any of you have thought enough about how annoying that would be to be the point man,

just because you're lifelong friends. If he's charging 5%, then he's the kind of guy that's into it into it and then he's thinking like oh i deserve some of this again i had this one friend i got a bunch of tickets to something he was like hey can i get these tickets i get these tickets he only won and then he sold them and then this is illegal too right like it's sort of like or is it sort of like cigarettes like you can't buy cigarettes when you're young but you could smoke it when you're young like is it is if you're getting gambling winnings but you're just can you smoke cigarettes when you're young but you could smoke it when you're young like is it is if you're getting gambling winnings but you're just can you smoke them when you're young like a cop just sees a 12 year old firing a dart he's like another yeah i don't think

i that's what i was told at least that's how i live my life was that you can't you can't smoke them you just can't buy them smoke them if you got them that can't be true somebody let me know somebody let me know uh yeah that would be. Somebody let me know. Yeah, that would be hilarious. Just to put your kids outside of a Cumberland Farms and Braintree. Junior High. The cops show up and they're like, can't do anything if they didn't buy them. Just let them smoke. These kids look tough.

Yeah. Yeah. Somebody let me know. Do some research. I'm going to stand on that one. Let me know. That's the Kelleher kid. He's fucking 12 years old.

Anyway. Hey, you got a parliament? All right. That'll do it. That'll do it for Life Advice. I hope you enjoyed. And we'll be back on Thursday with Bob Spitz,

the author of the newest Led Zeppelin book. A lot in there. And we'll have another Life Advice for you as well. Thanks to Kyle and Steve. Please subscribe to the Reiner's Soul Podcast or on your Spotify. you