The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Sleeping on the Suns, Brian Flores and the Failure of the Rooney Rule, and Joe Thomas on the Super Bowl and the Pain of Losing

Episode Date: February 2, 2022

Russillo shares his thoughts on the first-place Phoenix Suns as well as the class-action lawsuit filed by former Dolphins head coach Brian Flores and how the Rooney Rule has backfired (0:23). Then Ryen talks with six-time Pro Bowler Joe Thomas of the NFL Network about playing football in the trenches of the offensive line, playing for Kyle Shanahan, the Bengals' challenges vs. the Rams’ defensive front in the upcoming Super Bowl, the mental and emotional hurdles that come with being a part of a losing team during a rebuild, Flores’s discrimination lawsuit, Baker Mayfield’s future in Cleveland, and more (13:56). Finally Ryen answers some listener-submitted Life Advice questions (56:12). Host: Ryen Russillo Guest: Joe Thomas Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Press Box is here to catch you up on the latest media stories. Hosted by Brian Curtis and David Shoemaker, these guys have the insight on the biggest stories you care about. Check out The Press Box on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. I want to start with some good news, and that's going to be the Phoenix Suns. We're going to start with some bad news, and that's this Brian Flores story. We're going to have Joe Thomas on it as well, and then we'll do life advice at the end, as always. All right, first off, let's do the Phoenix Suns story,

because this doesn't feel like we're treating them like a 41-19. That's who the Phoenix Suns are. 50 games in, they're 41-9. Actually, they put only three games up on Golden State. I'll touch on this a little bit later in the Open, but I think it's very predictable. We already kind of know who Phoenix is, even though it's still only a year into this.

NBA Finals first year with Chris Paul and this group. And here they are destroying everybody. And I don't know. I guess, are we holding out hope that it's a wide open field because they haven't won before? If they had won last year, were able to hold off Milwaukee, would we all be saying it's Phoenix in one tier by itself and then

everybody else? We probably would be. We'll get to some of the rules and why that kind of happens, but let's look at the resume a little bit. Remember they started one and three and I remember watching the first week and I go, this doesn't look very good. this is the one and done kind of fluky thing does this mean does this mean chris paul's getting old no it doesn't mean any of those things because from that point on they've gone 40 and six uh they had an they've won what 11 in a row they had an 18 game

winning streak they went from one and three to 19 and three at that point. Their clutch numbers are incredible, and that's really telling because look at last night's game against Brooklyn. And by the way, with Brooklyn, they fought, they hung. I guess Harden's hurt a little bit. Kyrie was kind of going superhero there for a little while. It got to 95-92. They brought Chris Paul back in, and it was like, all right, yeah, actually, this game is over.

Sorry. Sorry for thinking you guys had a chance because that's what they do. As I've talked about deciding who the real stars are, who the real guys are, not the guys just scoring 20 a game. It's those last five minutes of a playoff game. That's when we decide. That's when we judge you and we get the best indicator of who you really are when it's everything is just kind of up to you. Right. In the regular season, when you're seeing a bad team kind of hang around with a good team. Those last four or five minutes is when those teams decide,

okay, enough of this. And that's what Chris Paul does for your basketball team. Their clutch numbers are 20 and three in clutch games. They shoot 60% in the clutch area, right? Five minutes or less, score within five points. So Phoenix shoots 60%. The number two team in clutch shooting are the Clippers at 52%. Every other team is under 50%.

Shots get harder, right? Maybe you hold onto a whistle a little bit longer. Not for Phoenix. They're shooting 60%. You wonder who's last? The Pacers are last. They shoot 36%. That's absurd. Let's look at the individuals

booker who my only knock on him was that as much as i love him and i do i felt like he gets talked about like he's one of these absolute elite shooters and he is in certain areas but not necessarily from three because he was between 32 and 35% the previous three seasons. He's at 38%. He's 25, five, and four. He can handle the basketball when he needs to because of the times pre-Chris Paul, where they're basically having to be this kind of combo guard. And he's terrific. He's terrific. And the shooting numbers are up as well for him. The no all-star part, which they were discussing last night in the broadcast,

which is always kind of funny. It's like, hey, not to take anything away from the starters. Like, no, no, the next sentence you are going to say is going to take away from the guys who were the starters.

I had a vote this year, by the way. The East was pretty easy. The front court, back court split wasn't the greatest. Like I was trying to find a way to go outside of trey young who was my starter along with the rosen i was like if i can put the rosen in the front court because he's kind of a small forward he really is um is there any way i can then get

another guard on there and at first i was thinking darius garland and then i was like you know the the winds are close enough with charlotte only a few wins behind at the time i voted and i go you know i might have to go LaMelo over Darius. But I was trying to figure out how to get one of those guys on. But once DeRozan stayed in the backcourt, I had to go with DeRozan. And then I felt like Durant's injury was new enough that it was still important that he was voted as a starter. And then Embiid, who's literally, he'd be the MVP in a landslide right now

if it weren't for Jokic. Then on the west side, I'll admit, all right, the backcourt, pretty simple, Steph and Ja. And I went into it going, I'm not going to vote for Gobert, right? And it's Jokic, it's LeBron. But the way the frontcourt, backcourt thing is split up, I was like, oh, you're voting for Gobert. Like, you have to. And then Wiggins is a starter. Wiggins has had a nice season.

He should not be a starter in the All-Star game. He just shouldn't. And if we were really looking at this the right way, that's probably Booker's spot. Because of this record, them having the one seed, and I don't think there's one of us that would rather have Wiggins over Booker. Congrats on your turnaround in your career.

So that part is a little frustrating. Paul doesn't have the numbers, although he's steady. Once again, by the way, Chris Paul has played in all 50 games at 36 years old. And remember with OKC when I told you guys that story about when he came into the Thunder and he talked to Billy Donovan and Billy Donovan was like, look, we're going to protect you. We're going to figure out a way to do this. We're going to limit your minutes. We're going to give you rest.

We're going to do all this stuff. So, you know, it's maintenance. You know, we're rebuilding, but we appreciate you being here. A little guidance. Chris Paul's like, no, fuck that. I'm playing. He played 70 of 72 games. That's why I love this motherfucker. That's why I'll always love Chris Paul. His numbers, like I said, the points

and shooting are down a little bit through the first 50. His assists are the best in eight years. His rebounding has been the same for a decade. As you get older, the rebounds go away. They don't for Chris Paul. And as we saw at the end of the game last night, it's like, alright, you guys got it to 95-92? Whatever. I'm in charge.

Phoenix off a make, this team is locked in. Bridges out there, and I know Bridges can have, you know, you could argue some of the numbers, but he's still someone there. Even with Aiton missing 21 games this year, and he just came back after missing seven. He was back last night. They're 18-3 without him.

There's more depth. They know exactly what everybody else is doing. They have a little bit more options now with the size of JaVale McGee, and they're finally paying – or, no, excuse me, they're not paying Jalen Smith. They're definitely not doing that because they declined his option, which is absurd. Simmons has been on this, and he was right on it.

That's one of the most ridiculous, cheap decisions an owner can make when you take somebody that high and you're not playing them and the number's low and you're just like, yeah, we're actually going to decline the option. And I actually think he's kind of talented, even if you feel like he's still a bit raw and can't hold up the way they need him to. Phoenix should be talked about as the clear favorite. Yes, I still hold out some weird hope for Milwaukee. No, it's not weird. Let me retract that. Retract that.

I hold out for a hope for Milwaukee because we all should, but there are some numbers that are a little weird. It's like, how come they haven't really gone on that tear? I think Hollinger had it. They're plus 12 points per 100 with Giannis, Drew, and Middleton last year. That number's down. I know there's no Brooke Lopez,

but it shouldn't be this middling. It shouldn't be 50 games in and they're still kind of close, but I'm still not going to worry about it all that much. Every Nets result, I don't know what the fuck to do with those. I love what Embiid has done with the Sixers here, but I don't love the overall part of it. Then you've got the Heat,

who I think you have to take really as serious as any team in the East. But we do like new, which Phoenix still isn't. And we love big headlines and bad. That's what the Lakers are. Golden State, in a weird way, isn't new, but they feel new because we've been waiting for Klay for two years. And it's been up and down, which is fine. And we wonder if Wiseman can give him anything

in a matchup against the Phoenix front line or something like that. Utah, everybody is sick of, as you can see the Gobera vote and how that went. But Phoenix is getting treated like, I kind of have this list of conference finals participants who just go over the last five or six years

where you're like, yeah, you were in a conference finals, but is that really who you are? We had Atlanta last year, which the way they played, and they've turned it around, but I don't, I'm not going to put them in this group, but some could.

Some could look at the Atlanta Hawks and go, oh, well, you got there. What I mean by this is you get to a conference finals, but it doesn't really mean anything. It doesn't mean like, hey, the next step is an NBA championship. Boston made it in 20 and lost to the Heat. Okay. But that was, you know, all right. Yep. You're in the conference finals.

Boston's on this list a few times for me. Portland in 2019, like, all right, cool. You made the Western Conference Finals, but now what? And that's played out. Boston in 18, which was kind of a cool little story. They almost won a game seven against Cleveland, but that didn't happen. I mean, for all the Boston stuff,

I mean, it happened to them in 72 when they played Cleveland and lost in five games because that team shouldn't even have been in the Eastern Conference Finals, which I always think is kind of funny when people look at Brad Stevens and be like, well, he can't get out of the Eastern Conference Finals. And I'm like, I can't believe he got there every year with these teams. He got there three out of four years. Those teams were great. Go back to Atlanta, who's a one seed in 2015. But all of us,

by the way, you want to talk all-star voting, go back and read some of those stories. I did. Maybe you don't have to because you have more of a life. But Atlanta, there was a media push. Should the Atlanta Hawks have five all-stars? Look at their record. Like, no, I don't think they should have five all-stars. And they lost in four straight games to Cleveland in 2015. Those teams, it was okay to go, all right, cool conference finals accomplishment, but I don't know that you're really building on this the same way. Phoenix made it to the NBA Finals, and it feels like they're kind of getting treated this way. If they had won last year, they were talked about completely different. They lost in six games. They blew the lead. Giannis had 50 in a closeout, and after not making free throws, made them all, and Chris Paul had surgery after the finals so I think now I've convinced myself we need to start looking at this as Phoenix in its own tier and all the confusion underneath them I want to talk about this Brian Flores story here uh absolute bombshell of a news story suing

the NFL for discrimination and part of the evidence of text messages that he had with Bill Belichick Belichick thinks he's texting with Brian Dable, who was named head coach of the Giants this week, and he's texting with Brian Flores. And the problem is that Flores hadn't interviewed him for the Giants, and he was going to do the interview, and he's sitting there thinking he has the job because of the text message.

Like, you have the inside track, and then Belichick's like, oh, I'm so sorry. As Flores is like, he realizes it's Brian Flores, not Dable. So, the Rooney rule. I remember when it first came about, named after the Steelers owner, Mike Tomlin, who has turned into one of the best coaches in the league.

And I think from the inception, it was, okay, well, this is a thing that the league will do to force the issue, which is a long-going issue. And I can't believe in 2022, we're looking at some of these numbers, where I look at the NBA going, hey, the NBA this past off season, this was a real priority. If you know anything about this league, it was the number needs to be higher. And owners responded, GMs, front offices, they responded. And now I think it's what's 14 black head coaches in the NBA out of 30, where the NFL will see what the final number is after this hiring cycle,

but it's going to be a low number. But I think in the beginning, the idea was to force the issue by getting people in front of the decision makers that maybe wouldn't normally have that chance, which in itself is fucked up, right? Like, oh, now I have to interview, so I will. Ooh, look at this. Now we have a better candidate, and we never would have tried this before. So even though I think if it's okay, if you'll allow me to suggest that the beginning, the rule was trying to fix a problem, the execution of it and what it really, the definition of it

is pretty fucked up. And now the execution of the entire thing is actually more insulting to any black candidate than not interviewing them, right? That's why the Lions, I remember back with Mariucci, they were like, we'll just take the fine and punishment because we're not going to do that to somebody that doesn't have a chance because Matt Millen was going to hire Mariucci. That was it. They were like, fine, we'll take the criticism. That is actually a far more honest way of doing business. So something that started with good intentions has been exposed as demeaning, insulting, and honestly, you know, a waste of time. I know the counter to this would be, well,

what about the times of the Rooney Rule gave somebody an opportunity to interview and then, okay, but the whole point is, why can't that guy just get the interview in the first place? If he's good enough to become your head coach because of the Rooney rule, then maybe you're doing a bad job of evaluating who you should hire or who your potential candidate base should be in the first place. So this story is going to be massive and I clearly don't know which way it's going to go. This is the kind of thing where corporate types don't like this stuff so Flores may have

really really put his own career in jeopardy and for a young guy that a lot of people still think deserved a job and never should have lost his in the first place he's doing something here that's very different and I would just hate if him

doing something trying to right a wrong turns into him never getting a gig again. We're going to talk to Joe Thomas about this more. Joe Thomas, NFL Network, and more importantly, All Pro Tackle. Are there plaques for that around the house? Because you have a lot of them. I have one trophy, I I think that I have that's

related to being an offensive lineman. It's right over here. It's my Outland Trophy from college being the outstanding interior lineman. And that's it. I don't think they give you anything for all pro other than the pat on the back and you get to buy yourself a steak dinner to congratulate. But that's about it. I don't think they have official

plaques. Maybe they should start doing that.'d be kind of all pros a big deal though like when obviously you're a hall of famer but when when you make all pro and you make it a bunch like i think brady has six and then you go how the hell did he only have six you go well look you know some guys have statistical seasons that are nuts he's going up against pate manning in the same conference the entire time but i mean what do you do you have? Do you have six or seven? I think I have six first teams and a couple second teams. But you're exactly right. Like Pro Bowl, they're naming three tackles in the AFC, three in the NFC with All-Pro,

especially now because they changed the voting a few years ago, right towards the end of my career, where they were voting two tackles first team, but now they vote a left and a right tackle. So you literally have to be the best left tackle in the game to be first team all pro these days yeah because that's exactly my point with all pro is that we'll have arguments about different quarterbacks you'll be like well he was all pro and i'm like so are 16 guys once everybody gets done not the pro bowl yeah we had vince young one year in the pro bowl um and he was like the 10th alternate. Like literally all you have to do is be in the top half of the NFL at quarterback. And with all the people that back out because Brady never played.

And a lot of times the other good quarterbacks were playing in the Super Bowl or they were kind of getting ready to take a little break and go golfing in some of those celebrity golf outings. And so you're ending up with like the 10th or 12th best quarterback in the AFC at that time in the Pro Bowl. So not quite as amazing as when you make the all pro team. That's for sure. All right, cool. Glad we did the resume. That was a better resume intro than I had planned on here.

Offensive line. I've always maybe I'm always spoiled. And I think I've talked to you about this before. Seeing Dante Skarniecki up close when I lived in Boston and just knowing that whenever they had issues or you didn't think they had enough talent, they were always able to kind of fix it. That's something I always thought you could at least adjust some things. The quarterback also has to be aligned with you to be like, Hey, we need, we need help from you back there to let us hold up. If we're overmatched, we've seen Cincinnati overmatch so many different times. It was ugly against Tennessee. It was, it was better against

Kansas city. Where are you? This isn't even about the teams of the matchup yet, but where are you philosophically like heading into the tunnel at halftime, knowing you're having a hard time up front, maybe not you so much and how that can be fixed. Yeah. I mean,

it's tough because you talked about, um, as an offensive line, your performance is not just the five of you. It's the scheme that you're running. Like when Kyle Shanahan came to the Browns, I was really excited because I'd watched his scheme and he puts his offensive line in positions to succeed. There's not a lot of drop back pass, which is the hardest thing for offensive lines to do is just, Hey, quarterback standing eight

yards behind the center. He's going to be there. Everybody on defense knows he's going to be there and they can pin their ears back and they can get after the quarterback. When you're running a lot of these wide zone play action pass offenses that you see today, it's much easier on the offensive line because you're running tons of play action where the defensive line actually thinks for the first second and a half of the play that it's a run. So they're running down the line of scrimmage. They're trying to maintain their gap. And all of a sudden now in the middle of it, the quarterback pulls the ball and they have to transition to pass rush, which is pretty difficult to do. And so it buys you a bunch of time on the front end.

And when the ball's coming out in three seconds, you just got to be a speed bump for a second and a half when you're in those systems. And so I love playing in those systems, but when you're an offensive line, the quarterback has to be on the page with you being in the right spot, delivering the football on time, reading the defense. You have to be able to communicate where the mic point is, who you guys are sliding to, who you're responsible for, who the running back has, like all those things have to happen on every single play. And you have to be on the same page. And then on top of that, you got to be technique sound and not just getting beat individually. So when you go into the halftime and it's getting sideways and things are not looking

good and you're getting beat up like we saw the Bengals earlier in the playoffs, especially, there's not a whole lot of hope in that situation because it's not something that can get fixed in the locker room at halftime. That's something that has to get fixed through the offseason, through training camp. And it's a collection of all the things I mentioned from philosophy to individual performance to is the guy just doing the things the right way. And so at halftime, you're really left with, hey, we either need to just start throwing some quicker passes or we need to start running the ball a little bit better because we can't just let the quarterback stand back there

because there's nothing we can do that can change that. This is maybe one of the dumbest questions I'm ever going to ask anybody because we just went over your resume. But I always laugh a little bit when the quarterback yells at the offensive lineman because it's like you better have a standing with the team. You better have done some things. You're going to yell at your offensive lineman who have the most boring job in the game. Like, I mean, you may not think it's boring but i mean of all the things you think to do right thankless uh did anyone ever yell at you about a misprotection um i'm trying to think back i don't think they ever did uh you may not have had one by the way like shotgun blast kind of you know one of those things where the quarterback was not happy because

he was getting pummeled and so so he kind of did the shotgun blast at all the offensive line, or maybe even the old grade school technique where the quarterback would yell at the offensive coordinator about the offensive line and the protection that he was getting because he didn't want to point us out too personally. Cause like you mentioned, all of a sudden that subconscious starts kicking in and the effort that you thought you were giving maybe was not as good as it used to be after this quarterback started calling you out on the carpet and acting like a jerk um oh I gotta I gotta remember who we had we had one of the I don't know if Saruti if you can look this up while I'm talking about it because he was such a funny

guy he used to play for Detroit and we had him at ESPN he would come by and do some stuff big old offensive lineman. Yeah. He played for the lions. And then he kind of admitted to me in the interview that we got so pissed off at Scott Mitchell. We let him get blasted a couple of times, but then it became like a story. So then we kind of felt bad because he was admitting. Yeah.

You don't want to see admitting to fratricide out there on your offense. But certainly you have quarterbacks that you literally do anything for, right? The guys that are always taking care of you. They're never throwing you under the bus. They're always putting you in the best positions. And I think of a guy like Joe Burrow. He does hold on to the football a little bit too long at times. And so some of those hits he's taking are maybe on him

because he's trying to make a play. He's a playmaker. We saw it already in the playoffs. His ability to find a way to win the game by making the play down the stretch is amazing, especially for a guy who's not as athletic as a lot of these guys that we're seeing today. But you never hear him calling out his offensive line. So those guys, even though the performance may not show it, those guys would do anything for Joe Burrow. Whereas you get a quarterback who maybe he's always wanting to point his fingers at you and not accepting the blame when he should yeah then maybe you might accidentally point the mic the wrong guy or you know maybe you're gonna turn

a little bit faster than you should and let your guy go to the guard on a slide and then the guard's maybe not ready and then all of a sudden he's creaming uh your quarterback back there and it's like all right that's what you deserve buddy by the way we were able to find it was lomas brown he was on with us he said it turned into a big thing and then mitchell said that it was reprehensible and lomas said i regret doing it i love it it's like beef 20 years after the fact that's's amazing. But I will say, if you ever want to know what an offensive lineman thinks of his quarterback, or in that moment, if he feels like the quarterback screwed him by either being too deep or hanging onto the ball too much, see who helps him up. Because if I ever gave up a sack or I screwed up and I, my guy hit the quarterback, I was the first guy right there to be like, Oh, I'm so sorry. Here,

let me help you up. Get my hand. If it was his fault, fault i would walk over there i just look at him and i was not helping him up i'm like you're gonna get your own ass off the ground because you deserve everything you got hey can we go to uh shanahan what were your impressions of him from the very beginning you said you were thrilled you like yeah like kind of the scheme and the blocking scheme and everything but give me your first kind of instincts of like why you think he's turned into who he's been yeah well i was really excited to play in that offense because when i was coming out as a rookie in 2007 actually um mike shanahan was in denver at the time and i was really hoping because there were some rumors that they were going to trade up to draft me i was hoping to go there because they

had a history of smaller offensive linemen and i I was 310 pounds, but I was still considered kind of a smaller left tackle compared to the guys that were playing in that day and age. You know, it was Jonathan Ogden, who was 6'9", 360. It was Willie Rove, who was 350. It was these guys that were really huge. And so I was a little bit undersized. So I had to use athleticism. And I loved the way they use smaller guys and they let them run.

And they won with technique and scheme. And they set up these huge chunk plays in the play action. And I never played in that system after not being drafted by Denver and going to Cleveland. So I was, on one hand, just excited to play in sort of the last remaining offensive system that I haven't played in at that point because I'd been going through so many offensive coordinators and head coaches. But also, I had had friends that had played for him in Washington when Kyle was the offensive coordinator for his dad, Mike.

And they talked about how much I would love this system, how friendly it is to offensive linemen, how you're able to be the aggressor because of their wide zone schemes that they run and how they don't put you in bad positions with a lot of drop back pass, how you get these chunk plays off of the play action. It makes it so hard on the defense because they're so busy running sideways to sideways. A lot of times they're not able to read their keys quite as quickly. So when Kyle came to Cleveland and we started learning the scheme, it was everything that was advertised. But what really impressed me about Kyle was the way he had this unbelievable emotional intelligence to be able to

read his players and to in a totally non-phony way at all completely genuine to make you feel like you were going into that game and there was no way you were going to lose because you were going to have a game plan that was far superior to the other team and he was going to pump you up individually and show you plays during the week thursdays friday saturday morning of you succeeding from the weeks before doing the things that he's going to ask you to do on sunday and he was the best of all time at pumping you up and building your confidence um going into the game on sunday i know that you know those of us can kind of like just lump them all together and be like, all right, well, the Shanahan things, the thing that started it and Kyle, but then McVeigh

and they worked together and Lafleur and all that kind of stuff. Can you tell kind of the difference? Like I'm sure you can. Um, but why would you say conceptually, you know, philosophy, how, how different McVeigh is, uh, than, than say Shanahan when you watch. Yeah. So it's, it's really interesting because what I love about Kyle is this is the system that kind of his dad created by taking the West coast passing game with the outside zone running game that really people added in their playbook, but they weren't doing it the way he was doing it with running as fast as they possibly can, trying to reach,

trying to actually make those outside zones go outside and allowing the cutback or the cutup to sort of happen naturally. They were one of the first teams that were really doing a lot of cut blocking on the backside to get guys to fall and creating these huge gashes on the interior of a defense. And it's fun to watch Kyle because as the person who's kind of created that offense, even though he's been a coordinator for a long time, he's constantly evolving it because it's his baby. Whereas

when you get a coordinator that learned an offense from somebody else, and then they take that playbook somewhere else, that playbook gets stale after a while because they're not evolving the playbook the way the originator of the offense does. So a lot of times what you see is like, hey, if a Shanahan disciple or McVay disciple or an Andy Reed disciple leaves and goes somewhere else, it's pretty good in the year one. It's okay in year two, but they're not progressing at the same way that the offense naturally would have had they stayed with the creator of the offense. So I say that because with McVay watching him and Kyle, they're actually, I'm sure using a lot of the same terminology and the same concepts.

But it's totally different offenses because with McVay, he never plays with a fullback. He doesn't even have one on the roster. He's playing with three wide receivers. It's much more of a passing-oriented offense. And they do run the football and they run the outside zones and stuff. But it's not the way that Kyle runs it. Whereas Kyle's focus is I'm going to open up big gashes in the passing game by running the football and making people so afraid of what we're doing physically running the ball inside and outside that it opens up huge windows in the play action passing. So he plays with a fullback. He gets his

big left tackle offensive line in motion. He's coming up with all these creative concepts and focusing most of his game plan and most of his practice week on coming up with great running concepts that maybe look a little bit different to the defense that he feels like they have a schematic advantage. more passing oriented. It's much more of like the West coast pass first type mentality. And it'll be interesting just to see like with McVay, if he tries to tweak anything now that this is the second time around in the Superbowl where he kind of got burned the first time. Cause with this long two week stretch, you have a lot of time to really focus in and come up with a very specific game plan to stop the team you're going to go against. Belichick famously did it last time the Rams were in the Super Bowl. And I'm curious what wrinkles McVay comes out with that he hasn't shown to try to stay one step ahead in that Super Bowl. McVay was really down on himself after that loss to New England. And it's one of the few Super Bowls of all my friends, you know, that still cover the team or whatever. And it's one of the few Super Bowls of all my friends that still cover

the team or whatever. And I was like, what's the vibe around the team? Or like, I've never seen him this confident going into a Super Bowl because they were like, they know exactly what LA is going to do. They're pretty one-dimensional. Golf's not much of a threat. And oddly enough, the game still had a moment where it may have been in doubt, even though it felt like New England was the superior team. I think that probably has haunted McVay for such a long time that if he loses this one, it's not going to be by being as predictable as they were in that first one, right? Yeah. Yeah. And that's a great point. That's what I was alluding to. He's not going to make those same mistakes. He's very analytical. He's got this amazing Rain Man memory and he's not going

to go in and be unprepared. And that's why I think you're going to see a lot of different tweaks with this offense and a lot of new concepts that maybe look the same. So he's giving the defense the same read that they've practiced against for two weeks, but then he's going to try to take advantage of some type of arbitrage or some type of leverage mistake that they can use with shifts and motions to be able to find big windows in the passing game. Because a lot of times it's those three or four explosive plays that make the difference especially in those big games like the super bowl and everybody remembers those moments so a guy who's super intelligent and super analytical like sean mcveigh you better believe that he's been waiting for this moment to be able to come back

to be able to show some of that creativity that hey i'm not the same coach that lost the super bowl to bill belichick a few years ago. So back to kind of the Cincinnati, now if we dig into this matchup a little bit, which we're all going to be doing a lot more here over the next week and a half, but that old line. I mean, how do you see, like, what are you doing in your preparation to try to figure out a way?

Because you don't have the advantage against this D-line for LA. It's gotten even better with all the depth around it, but there's, there has to be, Hey, what's the best concept that gives us a chance. Yeah. I think schematically the important thing for the offensive line, because the Rams have such a good defensive line all across the board. And obviously everybody knows about Von Miller and Aaron Donald. You've got to run at those guys, right?

Von is incredibly slippery. He's amazing pass rusher. He's very good against the run because of his slipperiness. But if you make him try to hold the point and you're running at him, you're putting big bodies on him. He's not a big guy, right? So he has, he struggles a little bit holding up in those situations. And Aaron Donald, he doesn't have a hard time hunkering down and like taking on double teams on the front side, but you damn sure don't want them on the backside chasing down because he's so athletic and so fast. If you're trying to run away from him,

he's going to make his, he's going to make his, the block miss. And then he's got the speed to close and make explosive negative plays in the backfield. And that's absolutely what you don't want to do. So I think for Cincinnati, the game plan is going to be, they're going to try to shift in motion, depending on where Aaron Donald and Vaughn Miller are going to line up at the beginning. You can do a motion where you set the formation in one direction. You motion away so you can either get the tight end to those guys or the tight end away

depending on how you want them to line up. And then you can get some favorable double teams on Aaron Donald on the inside, hopefully that he doesn't wreck things up. And then you're able to get some of those cutbacks where you're running right at those guys, you're getting four eyes and four hands on Aaron Donald. And then you're able to kind of get to that softness of the defense, either behind them or kind of right to the outside where Von Miller is. Von, did he line up?

Did they move him around? Or how many times has he lined up? I mean, not a total number of snaps here, but I mean, clearly you guys went at it, right? Yeah, yeah, we did. And it was different from year to year. And I think some of it depended on who they also had rushing.

So like when DeMarcus Ware was there and we played him, like DeMarcus would play over the left tackle because that's where he played his whole career. Right. And Vaughn was over the right tackle. And I think playing in the AFC West, there were so many good rushers over the right tackle,

including Vaughn Miller, that they decided, hey, the right tackles are getting pretty good at the AFC West. Maybe let's work on trying both sides a little bit and trying to find where he's at his best. And in the end, they found out that just the unpredictability of where he was going to line up was the most important thing. And they found he was just as good rushing over the right tackle as he was the left tackle so we had we had some good battles um but not every single time we faced them i i talk about

vaughn miller too much um because at his peak i just have never i don't know that i've ever seen anybody have the balance that he has that position i'm not saying he's the best you know he's not saying he's lawrence taylor here but the number of times i think oh he's just going to get pushed to the ground like he would be at 45 degrees to the ground and he would get under your arms yep and he still would be able to hold so it's not like you're pushing him past the quarterback like fine you want to speed rush me outside i'm just going to push you all the way behind the drive so congrats yeah um did you ever have a moment you were like what the fuck what this guy or were you you know because i can't remember all everything here where i or did you

kind of eat him up a little bit because you get your hands on him and you had the side i don't know so i always felt like i had a really good game plan against him because if you obviously watch a lot of von miller you know that big guys, big, strong, tall guys struggle mightily against him, right? Because he's so quick and he's so fast off the ball. Like his get off on the snap is one of the best in the NFL, probably of all time, especially for an edge rusher. And so he gets ahead of you, especially if you're not quick out of your stance. And then you're trying to catch up. So your balance is going backwards on your heels.

stance. And then you're trying to catch up. So your balance is going backwards on your heels. You're trying to get back in phase is what like a term you would use where I'm trying to get back ahead of him where I can get my feet in the ground and I can get my hands on him. And then that's where he was at his best, right? Where he was ahead of you. He was rushing up the field and he could either duck under you if you weren't athletic and bendy enough where you could get down low at full speed and be able to put your hands on him. Or if he saw, and he felt like you were going to be able to get your hands on him and you were going quickly, but you were off balance upfield. That's when he had that devastating spin move where he would just spin like a top, come back inside. And the quarterback was always

stepping up right into where he was coming off of that spin move. So for me, as a more athletic, smaller guy, he wasn't strong enough to bull rush me as long as I was in balance. And so I knew that I could win every rep against him as long as he didn't beat me off the snap. So I would go into those games and I was telling that quarterback, like, do not vary your cadence tempo at all with your voice, because I'm going to be going a split second before you say go so that I'm actually moving at the same time that the ball starts to move. So in my head, I'm actually false starting, but the time that it took my brain to tell my body to start moving was just that little bit of a split second where it kept me on time. And I felt like as long as I was ahead of

Vaughn, he was never going to beat me because I was going to keep my shoulders square. I was going to be in front of him and I was going to play basketball with him. I was going to let him try to invite the bull rush and then put my hands on him. If he got ahead of you, it was over. You saw that in the Super Bowl when they won that Super Bowl and he terrorized, I think it was Mike Remmers, the right tackle. Once he gets in your head like that, it's over because you're thinking, man, he's just going to run around me, and then as soon as you think that, whoop, you fall out the window, and he spins back inside and gets a sack to the inside, and then you're like, now what do I do?

He'd just beat me upfield. He'd beat me inside. I got nothing on this guy. Okay, so Aaron Donald, you think you got him once, right, in 2015? Yeah, right at the beginning of his career. It was when they were in St. Louis, and I remember Joel Batonio was our left guard. I career it was yeah when they were in st louis and uh i remember joel bettonia was our left guard i think it was his rookie season he's gone on to have an amazing hall of fame career he was all pro this year um but he was my left guard and i remember him talking

about aaron donald aaron donald aaron donald because i think there may be rookies together and i'm like this dude's a rookie he's 280 pounds a deep tackle i'm not afraid of this guy like i'm not losing one bit of sleep going into this game um obviously you watch him on a rookie he's 280 pounds a deep tackle i'm not afraid of this guy like i'm not losing one bit of sleep going into this game um obviously you watch him on film but he's playing over the guard so you don't see it all that much i'm more focused on robert quinn who at the time was a really good pass rusher that i was playing against so we go into that game and we were running uh power which is like america's play right the backside guard pulls, you got a fullback that leads through and the fullback, the backside guard

have two of the linebackers. The defensive, the offensive line gets a double team at the point of attack. And then on the backside, the center and the tackle work together where I step down and I'll help on the defensive tackle at the time Aaron Donald

until the center can snap the ball and then work back. And he takes over my block on Aaron Donald, until the center can snap the ball and then work back. And he takes over my block on Aaron Donald, the defensive tackle. And then I do a hinge, which kind of just means I open my shoulders to the defensive end and then just wall them off because we're on the backside of the play. So it's not a big deal, but that's like super routine. I've been doing that since I was a freshman in college. I was 18 at Wisconsin and Madison. Never been beat on that my entire life. It's impossible. You can't, You can't slip between me and the center. And the center was Alex Mack,

who was also an all-pro. And Aaron Donald, literally when the ball was snapped, he got in Joel's hip pocket. And it was like a Houdini move where both Alex and I crashed down to try to pin him. And he got underneath us and in between us and ran into the backfield and tackled the running back almost at the same time he was ran into the backfield and tackled the running back almost at the same time he was getting handed the ball and that was the moment where i was like oh my god this guy is not human he is built from another planet because he just beat an all-pro center and i'll put left tackle on a double team on the most routine easy block in the world and at that point i knew this dude was going to be a bad

motherfucker uh yeah and he definitely is that now i mean he he almost i thought he was going to try to kill that guy from green bay this year um and apparently it was it was not what did he have that nastiness then when he was playing with you guys was he talking at all because i know when he it always feels like with donald once you mess with him then it's on i don't think he starts the game at 10 with you so from an effort level he does but talking shit he doesn't right no no no we always say you never want to tug on superman's cape and that was the truest thing you could say about aaron donald because he was always giving great effort right but there was an extra level of hatred that he would bring out if you did something to hatred that he would bring out

if you did something to him that he didn't like. So you were very careful not to block him longer than the whistle. You were very careful not to cut him too far on the side where he would get a little upset and feel like that was a dirty play. Because the last thing you wanted to do was give Aaron Donald a little extra motivation to try to kill you. Because if you do, you will die. Like there is nobody on the face of the earth that aaron donald could not kick their ass especially in between the tackle boxes yeah man um you're not the first to say it all right as an afc north alum um the overall cincinnati view of what this team i mean we talked about the o-line here a little bit we know it's burrow and

chase and zach taylor you know turning this around, obviously with Burrow being a big reason, but you know, it's still, it's odd. It's a 10 and seven team that everybody kind of loves now. We know they have their problems, but how do you see it as a team? You probably played a little more attention to. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like a closet Cincinnati Bengals bandwagon fan. And I think you're right. Like they've got the underdog story that everybody loves.

Everybody's just so attached to Joe cool burrow and the way he's playing, the way he's got the ice water in his veins at the end of games. And he's just finding ways to win. But then also his, his mentality, his leadership. I think he's just one of those natural leaders where people are drawn to him. People like him. People want to play for him. And at this point, when you get these teams into the Super Bowl that are both hot,

that both have great quarterback play, it's anybody's game. You can always throw the spread out, in my opinion, because it's just going to come down to those three or four plays. And typically, it's made by quarterbacks, right? And when you have Joe Burrell, like you're feeling pretty good about being able to make those plays down the stretch, especially for him coming off of an enormous confidence boosting game

against Patrick Mahomes, who people were already ready to give the Super Bowl trophy to after they beat the Bills. And to have that huge deficit in the beginning of the game, come all the way back and beat him, like for Joe Burrell,

as if his confidence couldn't have been any higher and his team couldn't have believed in him anymore to kind of do that just adds to the fairy tale and adds to their feeling of invincibility. I want to ask you about a few other things too. And there's always the mandatory Baker question, probably at the end at some point here. Um, but this Brian Flores story is huge lawsuit now against the NFL, the text message from Bill Belichick. And I wanted to kind of start this way. We know it's a huge problem. When I look at what the NBA has done

with the progress that they've made with head coaching hires and then see where the NFL's at, like anybody that's denying that this is an issue, just, you know, your head's in the sand. Okay. But how did you talk about this with teammates?

How did you talk about it with coordinators, black coordinators? What was the understanding like of living in the sand okay but how did you talk about this with teammates how did you talk about it with coordinators black coordinators what was the understanding like of living in the world and and trying to understand how this hasn't gotten better obviously being a white male from suburban wisconsin like i don't have the same experiences that brian flores or any of the black coaches do. And so when situations like this would come up when I was playing or now that I'm in the media world and just listening to this story unfold, the first thing I always try to do is put myself in their shoes to try to gain empathy for their situation, because I think that empathy can build an understanding. And for me, I heard the Brian Flores stuff this morning and my wife

and I, we started talking about it. I like started crying because I'm thinking about the situation that he was in. First of all, it was total bullshit that he got fired in Miami. He did a masterful job. And by all accounts, the reason that he got fired was because Tua Tungvalu was their quarterback instead of Justin Herbert. And last I checked, they had a GM who was responsible for that role. And so to hire a defensive-minded head coach to be like sort of that CEO, and then to fire him after it seems like everybody on that team believed in him and he was making all the right decisions. He was as classy as they came. They finished with an incredibly hot winning streak, finding a way to win with a quarterback that maybe didn't have the upper ceiling that a lot of these guys in the NFL have.

And then to get fired, I mean, it's already a BS situation. And then you hear as he's thinking to his family, like, hey guys, I'm going to get a second chance. I know it was bullshit in Miami, but I've got these other interviews and hopefully we can catch on to a spot that potentially is maybe even a better fit. And obviously the stuff with Steven Ross paying him to lose potentially, that's a whole nother story. That's crazy. But it had to have the feeling in his mind that Miami was maybe toxic. And this is an opportunity for a fresh start, right? I think when he was fired, everybody was thinking that maybe he was

the top candidate for all of the head coaching jobs because everyone kind of universally thought that he got screwed in Miami and he did a really good job. And then to find out from your mentor, Bill Belichick, that the interview that you're about to go to is just a total bullshit sham because of the color of your skin has to be one of the most disgusting feelings that a human being could ever feel. And it was so sad for me to think about what was probably going through his mind in that situation when he got that text message from Bill and how he would share that with his family. Like to me, if you're one of the NFL owners, which clearly the problem is within the people

that are controlling the NFL franchises, because those are the guys that are not willing to hire people that maybe don't sound like them, don't look like them, don't come from the same background as them, that they feel like they maybe can't go to dinner and have a beer and be completely honest with, and that's why they're hiring people that, they're playing identity-type politics where they want to hire people that are like them.

And that limitation without the owners making a conscious effort to change, it doesn't matter how many Rooney rules you have or how many minority coaching internships you have, nothing is going to change. And for the NFL, I hope that this Brian Flores situation, and I hope the lawsuit is the big wake-up call that the owners needed. Hugh Jackson talked about the tanking part of this, where Brian Flores also in the lawsuit says,, hey, they were giving me, offering up a bonus to lose more games and prove our draft position. You played for Hugh. You played for seven coaches in Cleveland. Yeah.

Do you have any more insight on this? So I don't know anything like that that happened in Cleveland. Certainly they were ripping things down to the studs when Hugh was the coach. And I think talking with Hugh after the fact, I don't know what the true story was, but his side of it is that they didn't really let me know the situation that I was getting into. Right.

He was kind of saying, Hey, I thought I was going to take over. They were going to put all their resources in the first year, kind of like every franchise that had done for a very long time. We were going to try to retain as many of our good players as we had. And then we were going to kind of try to build from there. And the approach was different. It was something that you're seeing more teams, especially with an analytics background are accepting, Hey,

if we can't make it to the playoffs, let's save our resources this year to try to improve our draft status, have more salary cap space so that we can find the quarterback we need. Because if you don't have a great quarterback, you can't win in the NFL period. So that's one of the big issues, but also, Hey, then when we do get that quarterback two, three, four years down the line, we can put all those resources that we saved in to the team then.

And then we can have a great run with a great quarterback. And it seemed like Hugh felt miffed that he wasn't given full understanding of that was the plan. However, I do know that we lost a lot of games. We only won one game in the two years that I was there. We were one in 15 and no in 16, but I gave you a lot of credit because we busted our ass like almost more than any other team that I've been around from a coaching standpoint, from a practice standpoint, from a player standpoint, like to be sitting at no wins at week 13 or 14 and still have your head coach come in and give you a positive spin that week and send a positive message and deliver a game plan that gets you believing that you can win on that Sunday. That might be harder than when you're

going and you're on an eight or nine game win streak and your coach is coming in and giving you a good game plan and keeping you focused because it's so hard to keep guys buying and believing in and working hard when you're just getting your ass kicked every week. So I definitely don't think there was any tanking from a coaching standpoint or certainly not a playing standpoint because these guys were all playing for our jobs. hey, coaching standpoint, or certainly not a playing standpoint, because these guys were all playing for our jobs. But definitely the front office decides

who the players are and when you're going to be using the resources that you have because of the salary cap, because of draft capital. And if it's not in the season that you're in, like had typically historically been the route people have taken, it does feel a little shitty as a player sometimes

because you feel like we're handicapped going into this game. Whereas we're going against the LA Rams and they're all in, they just traded everything they got for Matt Stafford and Von Miller. And meanwhile, all we've done is trade away our draft picks for the future. We've traded away our good players. Um, and so there, there is a feeling of helplessness at times but the fact that potentially brian flores was maybe going to get paid to lose i mean i don't even know where you take that i mean it seems like i i want to hear more details before i say too much but that is one of the most incredible claims i've ever heard related to the n in my entire life. Yeah. I mean, his tweet was basically like Jimmy Haslam quote was happy while we kept losing

and then wrote, trust me, it was a good number. Um, who said embarrassingly he was replying to somebody saying it wasn't going to be a hundred grand. I, that's just weird. I can't imagine the coach would tell everybody. I'm not saying he's wrong. It's just, it's a crazy admission. Um, and then I think back to your last two years, you made a really good point. I mean, not that those of us that love this game can't understand, but I don't know what it's like to go. I can't imagine what was it? One

in 31 over your last two years. It was, it was horrible. I mean, honestly, Hugh going into that and then Hugh on the other side and me as well. Like I had to talk with our team psychologist because losing in the NFL is so much more painful than any other sport. And I think that may have been the big thing that the Browns front office underestimated when they kind of went with that approach, the tear it down to the studs and we're going to save for the future. Because if you do that in basketball or baseball, which it kind of been, it's, it's done more frequently and I'm not the fan of those sports that you are, but it's a, it's a strategy that's been around. And if you lose in basketball, people stop showing up.

If you lose in baseball, people just don't pay attention. If you lose in football, they're still there, but they're just mad as hell. Like in Cleveland, they had an Owen 16 parade basically saying that you guys are embarrassing us, but it's that important to them that they're willing to show up in the middle of winter at an Owen 16 parade versus just turning the TV off. Like this is people's life in the NFL. And when you're the team that can't get it right, the, the emotional toll that it takes on you and how it changes you as a person is really tough. I mean, we lost to the Patriots the year we went 1-15 or 1-16. I can't remember exactly which year that was now, thankfully.

But I convinced myself because he was really good at convincing you that you were going to win this game. This is a great game plan. You guys have what it, what it takes a lot. Like I mentioned with Kyle Shanahan was, and we go into that game, we got absolutely smashed by the Patriots and Tom, I think we lost like 33 to six. I remember getting in the car with my wife after the game. I just started crying. I was like looking out the window and she's like, are you okay? You know, she was always real careful after games. Cause you know, we can be a little emotional, especially if I didn't play well, or I was mad at something. And so she was always a little careful not to, uh, poke the bear. And I was like,

I'm okay. I feel like I'm all right. And she just said, you know, what's wrong. Did, did you not play a good game? And I was like, no, I actually had a perfect game, but I like the fact that I had no control over the outcome and that we were still getting our asses kicked, it got to me on a level that it really hurt. It stung and it emotionally fucked me up really bad where I had to go talk to the psychologist for a little while and kind of help me cope with those things. And I think he was still trying to figure out how to cope with the fact that he feels he's a really good coach and he had one of the worst records of all time through his tenure in Cleveland.

And he feels like it's not my fault. You know, they didn't give me a chance. Is it okay if I pry into what that meant to have it fuck you up towards the end? Like just how it was kind of impacting your day to day, man. Yeah, it definitely was because it's hard to describe the pain of losing. Like people in the NFL, they talk about it, but it really is what you've given your life for NFL football. And that's all pro athletes,

but especially in football during the season, because you only get one shot a week and you only get 16, you know, when I was playing and the loss and, or the win in the NFL, especially is always overblown in both directions. When you lose, you're worse than you really are. Everybody thinks you're terrible. They got to fire everybody. We've got to start over. And it's that feeling that's in your stomach and your gut that just hurts like you're sick all the time. And to never get any taste of winning through a long stretch. It almost gives this feeling of what I'm doing is worthless, like the lack of control. And I think

I'll maybe compare that a little bit to during the pandemic when people like mental illness was getting crazy. And I'm sure it's still way above where it normally was, but the feeling of not having control over your situation and what's happening, especially when things are going poorly, is a really difficult mental mindset to be in, especially when you have to go back to work and you have to give your best effort the very next day. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing is nobody ever feels bad for you guys because of the money, the fame. Absolutely. You get to do, you know, very few people get to live out their dream, but then once you're in it, you know, once you're in it, you're going, okay, I deserve all of those

things. No doubt. But now I, I don't process it the way you process it because this is my day to day. And I mean, that had to have been, cause i know the last season was the half season um yeah with the injury but yeah did you ever think of like hey maybe i mean it doesn't really happen in the nfl the way it happens in the nba right were there ever real conversations about like i'd love to just get a taste of chasing something once i mean there's part of you that says that but at the same time in order to get the most out of yourself, you have to convince yourself that the situation you're in has hope in being that, right? And how special that would be, right? You have to control your brain so much as an NFL player. And it's the biggest cliche ever about controlling your emotion. And you hear the Patriots talk about it, and it's so boring, but it's absolutely true. And it's the key to being able to be prepared every single Sunday to the best of your ability. It's controlling the things that you control, not worrying about the things you don't control and convincing yourself that if I prepare as well as I possibly can and practice as well as I possibly can, success will happen. And it will come because you want to couple those two things in your brain and you never

want those things to decouple because that's when you get that hopeless feeling now i feel like a baker question isn't relevant we can go baker we'll we'll have to have a commercial break right there let's let's let's finish on this because i don't um i don't know what to do anymore you know what i mean like i i have an open about things. I also feel like there were a few weeks here at the end where that guy was in some serious pain running around. So I want to be fair to that part of it. But I also look at four years of it not being what people would hope in Cleveland.

They've got him for one more year in the contract, which doesn't necessarily guarantee anything. But where are you now with kind of this pivot for him where we don't know where it's going? Yeah, I hope he gets one more opportunity with a healthy shoulder because obviously he tears his labor early on in the season and he just never looked right the whole year. I mean, and we've seen flashes of really good play from Baker,

including the year before where he finished the season really well. And I think the question with Baker being that he isn't physically talented the way Patrick Mahomes is or Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson, or some of these elite quarterbacks in the NFL in this younger age class, he doesn't have that arm that those guys have. He doesn't have the wheels that those guys have. He doesn't have the stature that those guys have. So for him to have great success and be the quarterback the Browns want from him, he needs to be a little bit like a Drew Brees,

where he was very, very accurate and very, very consistent. And he was able to read the defense and never be confused. He always knew where the football needed to go. And we haven't seen that yet from Baker. So I really want to see what he can do

because this will be his third year in this offense it'll be hopefully completely healthy and if he can show that level of consistency that he needs to I think he can get a long-term contract from the Browns and they can definitely build a roster around him that can compete for a Super Bowl but if he's showing any level of inconsistency, you've got to say because the ceiling isn't super high that he's not the type of guy that you can trust enough to build a franchise around and they'll probably go look for somebody else. Tremendous work, man. This was a lot of fun and I appreciate you opening up on top of everything else and the

Florida stuff was incredible too. So we'll see you on NFL Network through the lead up-up man enjoy the super bowl i appreciate it thanks for having me on you want details bye i drive a ferrari 355 cabriolet what's up i have a ridiculous house in the south fork i have every toy you can possibly imagine. And best of all, kids, I am liquid. So, now you know what's possible. Let me tell you what's required. Life advice is about to start. Before we do that,

we gotta check in with everybody's new fitness guru with an incredible filter today. Alright, Kyle, we left you Monday. We had back injuries. The sneezing was like, it was tough for me to watch you sneeze. I was in pain watching you sneeze. Uh, you're supposed to work out with the Nigerian guy. It has been 48 hours. So, uh, I'm actually doing

this standing up. I got a standing desk. Uh, it's been real bad. I've been doing a lot of laying on the floor and not because I've been having too much fun, if you know what I mean. I've learned how to sneeze from some guy on Instagram who told me to, honestly, you should see me sneeze now. It's hilarious. I have to lean back and keep my mouth open and look at the ceiling when I sneeze. So that's part of the reason I got this filter, just in case I have to do it, so it won't look so crazy. But no, I didn't go. I wrote the pod description lying on the floor yesterday.

It was real bad. I got a doctor's appointment on Friday. It's a little better today. I'm just trying not to sit at all. So there'll be no banner lords today. That's been the hardest so wait all this so you you didn't work out no dude no no because i you know because i was seated for the that whole time while i was giving the thing i was like all right this hurts pretty bad while i'm seated and then when i got up to smoke my cigarette while the zoom call

transform uh you know transcribes the video or whatever converts it i was like oh holy shit and it just got just got worse and worse as i was making my way to my little balcony and i don't know it just seemed it seemed crazy to me to to go and it was just it was real it was it was probably as bad as it's been i woke up feeling a little better today but i realized um after after i sit down for a while, it's getting crazy. So I called Tate because he's got notorious back problems yesterday. Turns out he's got other shit that's not the same. He's got like a high rib cage or something. I don't know. But it's not what's going on with me. I got a thing on Friday. Maybe I'll get some opiates or just some muscle relaxers.

Who knows how we're going to get through this. But I'm just going to try to... I'm standing right now. What can you do? Does your guy think you're ducking him, though? Did he call you out and be like, hey, man, you've made three or four excuses every time we've had a workout? I'm going to show up today and just see what's going on with him. I don't know. I don't think he's... I think the other thing is he's

not really worried because he's the door guy at Frolic Room. When he sees me, he's going to be like, all right, I'm going to leave work now. That's basically his new plan. So if he doesn't see me, he'll just work and make his money. Like, it's really like, it's all very convenient for him how this has worked out. Wow. Wow.

Okay. I think that's the update we were all looking for. Yeah, sorry, guys. It'll happen. I think that's the update we were all looking for. Yeah, that's all right, guys. It'll happen. Hey, don't be. I want you to go buy supplements, though, as a motivating factor. I'll Venmo you $100. Like vitamin C drops?

No. That's good. That's smart. It's not a supplement. It tastes great. It says supplement drops. Yeah, it tastes great. No, but I want you to kind of like do the supplement by and then they're there so now you're like all right now i have to you know a little pre-workout you know protein in

the morning or something so now you work out sounds bad dude it doesn't sound good that's like when i bought all my my script writing books as i was finishing up college and i was like all right look out la my stepdad had no explode lying around when i was in high school that was is the no explode or no explode it was nox right but yeah no i know yeah yeah i don't know uh that your stepdad was a big your stepdad was a big pre-workout guy yonkers fire he says he could bench 500 at some point um yeah he was a he was a real he was like a bear of a man so i don't know i was like i guess this is for me too huh and i was just like why the fuck am i continuing to take this but i don't know

okay all right don't love let's get to the light work out all right well anti-pre-workout pro a few other things yeah here we go uh lifeadvicerr at gmail.com this one's a bit uh he wants us to use his fake name is cray i don't know who knows uh professional has refused their phrase their fake name you could give your own fake name right okay 25 said he's a professional poker player for the last four months or so I was seeing an older woman about double my age attractive outgoing better playing poker she's probably the only

person I know that was this one gets a little little graphic for this so I try to edit I'm just still not 100% sure where I am with the all in I'm talking about other guys having sex because I just I don't know if I want to do that kind of podcast.

Well, we wouldn't. No, I'm not letting some prude about it, but I just, I don't know. Maybe it's the Disney in me. Maybe it's the ESPN. I mean, clearly I don't mind swearing and going a little more PG-13, but I just feel like the podcast, it's like, hey, do you hear Rosillo's breakdown of Phoenix's clutch numbers? You'd be like, yeah, but what about that handjob story he told?

You know, so I don't really want to be that guy on the far end of it. But you guys write in whatever you want, and I'll self-edit on the fly, which is why sometimes it sounds like I can't read. All right, so this woman was, let's say, good to go as often as he wanted to get down. And he said, every single day. Eventually, it got too serious for me. I don't love her, so I broke things off.

All right, so they had sex a ton. Congrats. Anyway, the point of this email is my massage addiction. I had a person I could have sex with every single day, multiple times a day, but I wasn't as happy as when I am when I get my massages. I go for the massages because of my back from playing poker all day.

Kyle, we should hook you guys up. Yeah, what's your zip code, dude? Right. Obviously there's a little bonus going to these places and i can't stop i go every single day how do i stop this clearly getting a girlfriend isn't the answer what do i do keeps spending a hundred dollars he's spending a couple hundred dollars on these massages every day i'm dead serious and he he said this is not a joke. I don't know. We're never 100% sure.

That's a red flag if I've ever seen one. It's not a joke, I swear. Well, we read it, so whatever. How would we handle this? I have a friend. I think we all have one guy in our group that you're like, yeah, all right. That's kind of your speed. That's what you you do I have a friend who blew out his knee

and then tried to find somebody that was in his HMO to get rehab and his insurance ended up paying for him to go to an adult massage parlor for like a year they paid for every single one of them like once he was

over his deductible they found out after a year. They paid for every single one of them. Like once he was over his deductible. They found out after a year or what? No, no, they didn't know. They didn't know. So guys were like, why are you going there all the time? Like you're not even that much of an athlete. Don't worry about it, dude.

And he was like, you guys, I got to get this right. I got to get this right. Really dedicated. And then the place got raided. And he was like, boys boys it was a good run my god it's like my god okay you're like all right this is a long long time ago long time ago um i don't know i don't i don't obviously if i this were my speed i wouldn't admit it

but it isn't so i don't i don't really i tell, I would say this at some point, you're going to have to stop doing this. I don't know how you, but you can't have a normal relationship with any woman. If this is what you're also doing. Okay. Like if, if, if all the reasons why I've heard of people getting divorced, I remember I heard some story about a couple where the woman married the guy and then it didn't work out and they were like they're separated but they're trying to work it out and i was like what's the problem she's like he's addicted to hookers just addicted he like she leaves for work he calls one up i'm like middle of the day like this guy's a psychopath so i don't know it's an addiction in a way that's different like if you were drinking all the time you were waking waking up and you were drinking, your life isn't going to be normal, right? You're not going to be operating under the confines of how other people are doing their day to day. And you can't make any big boy decisions until that part is figured out and you make a change. It's not the same because it's not like you look like shit, probably walking around feeling great. the same because it's not like you look like shit, probably walking around feeling great.

But it's the same in that it's consuming your life and that the rest of the decisions are all impacted by this in ways that maybe you're not even processing, but you will not be able to talk to somebody normally. I don't know that you'll be able to care for somebody normally if that's what your goal is to get back to this. It sounds like you're just kind of pissed off about being out a couple hundred bucks every day. But if your goal is to actually be like a normal guy, which again, this isn't super normal. Sorry, I'm sorry for the massage parlor enthusiasts out there listening to the podcast. I'm sorry if you feel like I'm being critical, but I just, I don't know. You can have this in your life every single day and make make like the normal parts work.

So good luck. Yeah, I think too much of anything is a bad thing. As you said, I'd say this squarely in that category. I don't know. It sounds like it's costing you a ton of money. And what if you like knocked it down to like, whenever you get your toenails clipped or something like, you know, that's what I do. I don't get manicures. I get pedicures. And then I, I throw on a little 10 minute leg massage on there. Um, so maybe that's,

maybe that's what you could do and find a, find a place as close to your favorite spot and just try to knock it down to once a month is like a as a thing wean you off like a little methadone version of this yeah just like make it make it try to make it as part of like another another sort of thing that you're doing for yourself cosmetically like that's what i just don't like cutting my toenails not a big fan um you know so i what i mean i do i do cut my own toenails sometimes like sometimes i shape up myself but I'd rather go to a barber to do it. So I'm just saying like if you maybe, I mean, if you're, if you're, if I don't know,

I would just say try to try to like roll it into something else that you do on like a quarterly basis or monthly basis at best. And then just, and just to show you, you'll be okay. Just to show you, you will be okay. Yeah. Get an Excel sheet going. Be like, all right. Cold turkey is going to be pretty hard to stop.

No pun intended. It's going to be pretty hard to stop doing that. But I will say I have a buddy who kind of dabbles in this stuff. And my friend group talks about he's single. He's also a guy who lost 20 grand on a bachelor party went to in Vegas. So he just kind of is involved in this sort of behavior. And he's single. And we always talk about like it's a chicken

or the egg thing. Like is he this way because he isn't in a relationship or is he not in a relationship because he does all this stuff? And I actually think it's because I actually think he does it because he's not in a relationship and he kind of feels bad for himself. So I think you got to try to find somebody, even if it's just a consistent hookup thing to get that out of your

system, because otherwise it's too easy for you to go there and pay every time you go right so i think you need to find some companionship man that would be my that would be my advice i was gonna suggest maybe a sex toy but it sounds like he just needs two people involved in this thing so yeah we're good we're good now i'm not a kyle i don't want you to be frustrated your facial expression which I can't quite figure out with today's filter I don't want to feel like your input was put off but I

don't know what I we're good I think we covered it I think Cerruti did nail something though on the chicken or the egg thing but I kind of revert back to I think we end up making decisions that we all want to make like deep down even though we may not have the things that we want to, we make the decisions that put us in that position. And you're like, oh, okay.

Like you just like this, dude. You'd like doing this. And so maybe you're not motivated to change because the other thing you think you want, you don't really actually want. And so this is some, it fills the void a little bit, but you're not willing to make any other changes to actually get out of this. Cause this is what you want to do right now. And I don't know how long that's going to last. All right. Shout out to cigarettes. There you go. Oh, you have the best writers. Oh, I don't, I don't know. You need, you need to be on doing something with like some late night TV shows.

I was watching some of those I Think You Should Leave sketches last night. God, so good. Have you watched The Haunted House one? It's Tim Robinson, right? I've seen them all. Yeah, I've seen them all. My dad loves them too.

The Haunted House one is so fucking funny. And I didn't know. I had never seen it before. I'm not a huge obviously i just checked myself get or potentially forgetting his name but i've seen some of the clips and obviously i've seen all the memes he's a huge meme guy yeah um but that haunted house thing where he just starts swearing saying dirty words because they said it's the adult door and you can say whatever you want. Yes. It's the first time he says a word.

I was howling because, again, I didn't expect it. And the timing and the way they did it all was terrific. So there you go. I think you should leave. It's some of the best times I have with my dad. I went home August and like, you know, we kind of like the same stuff, but he's always watching stuff with, uh, with his wife. And it's just like, this is my life now. I watch house shows and what can I do? She doesn't like stuff with swords,

so I don't watch it. And so it was like, these things are so short and we were just laughing so hard. And, uh, it was, it was so good. The nachos, can you just tell her the rule of the nachos? And the, well, I don't know if you've seen it but it's just i haven't seen that one anybody who is depressed for watching stuff with your dad he's gonna be in immediately whoever your dad is and it's just great binding time that's all i'll say when the one with will forte is like i don't think it's the best skit but like the guy on the plane who like gets back at the baby that that is so genius to me like i'm not saying it's my favorite one but just the idea of that is so stupid funny that it's it's honestly like the perfect skit where he dresses up like the

guy and goes to the mall and it's like they're making fun of i think they're making fun of here anymore we we my dad and i have that catchphrase he He's just like, I don't want to be around anymore. That's just what he says to me. I love that one. Are you kidding? I'm going to rip the face off. What about the one where he's in the courtroom, right? And they just keep making fun of his hat. And the lawyer keeps reading about this guy in his stupid hat.

And he's like, what the fuck is going on? That, to me, is the best one. Yeah, because that's kind of what it is. It's just, all right, we're going to put you in a normal setting, but there's going to be this one thing that you can't get over. You're obsessing over.

And there's some different stuff there too. But when he's at the haunted house, I haven't seen enough of him. I need to go back. We should try to get him on. I don't know. Does he do a lot of stuff? I thought I saw an interview

where they said SNL passed on him, which I could kind of see because his comedy is... Well, he was on SNL. He was a writer on SNL. Oh, he's a writer. Oh, yeah. Somebody said he tried out

and it didn't to be. No, I think I could be wrong, but I think he was on one of the late night shows like Kimmel or or or Fallon or somebody. And he was talking about like how they didn't use his skits.

They didn't like using skits. And like, that's what it was. And they're like, that's interesting because your skits are kind of better than SNL skits now didn't like using skits and like that's what it was and they're like that's interesting because your skits are kind of better than snl skits now um but the time it it takes though the kind of skits like you have to let them play out you know when he's in the haunted house and it just starts like yeah you can say whatever you want for you we're kind of killing this for anybody who hasn't watched so we'll finish here for a second but he's he's in a haunted house tour

there's a tour guide who's like a goth dude who's super into the haunted house and the history of all the people who've died in this house there's just a bunch of other tourists you know randos everywhere and they're like you say whatever you want and then it just every time he raises his hand he's like any of these fuckers ever because he's so he's so pumped to be swearing they have to pull him aside anyway there you go go ahead. Anyway, there you go. Go ahead and check that out. There you go. Full endorsement. All right. Last one here. Late request for reimbursement. 28, 6'4", 220, bald beard. What up?

Nice. Nice. Good look. Underrated look. Nice, dude. Wish we all could be 6'4", man. Imagine we were all 6'4", just walking around. Would we all get along?

Would you rather be 6'6"? Well, I know your answer, Ryan. Would you rather be 6'6", or 5'7"? Dude, don't even... You're banned from the pod for one week. All right, because I think 6'6". Van Pelt always said 6'6 was abnormally tall. No, he's 6'7".

He said 6'6", because he thinks 6'7 is weirdo town. But he's 6'7". You might be right. I kind of get 6'7 is weirdo town. But he's 6'7". You might be right. I kind of get it. There's a point where you reach, if you're not an athlete, where you're too tall, and it's kind of weird.

I'm not saying it's Van Pelt that way, but I think there is a lot. What's the cutoff line? I don't know. I just don't hear a lot of women ever saying, I'd like to meet somebody just under average height. I don't hear that a lot. All right.

What if I made it 5'10"? No, I'm still out. Still taking 6'7"? Okay. That's an awesome question, though, if we go outside of... What's the tall that's too tall where you go, no, I'll be 5'9"? Not only too tall, but you're not an athlete.

You're just a guy. Well, maybe not yet. All right. You're your current age, so you can't become a professional athlete what is the height that is too tall that you're like yeah again 5 10 not yet i mean you know if i were 6 10 you think if i were 6 10 do you think i'd be talking to any of you guys i think whatever height where my organs are like uh have like shorter life than the regular person that's that's what i'm like all right that's too tall like i don't know if his heart's cut out for this you know what that's

a really mature answer from kyle that i didn't expect is you're gonna start worrying about organ failure at what point is organ failure a real question by the way the reason the reason the 610 thing happened because i i told you about my my one buddy who's a couple years older than me was a pretty good high school football player and he wasn't huge by any means, but when he would get hammered, his go-to would be like, if I were 6'5", I wouldn't be talking to you fucking guys.

He'd be blacked out. He would only do it when he was blacked out. So we'd be like, wow, there's some weird deep thing where once you get that banged up, you start going. And I just always thought it was one of the funniest things ever. He would just- Well, you know how many guys at the Y

that are like 5'10", that are like, oh, if I was just 6'5", I'd be in the NBA. And you're like, you know how many guys say that? Like, you know. How many 6'5 guys actually are in the NBA?

All right, so back to it. No, that's a good question though. Is 6'0", would you- I'm 5'10", so you guys are all taller than me. What about 5'8"? Would you do 5'8 or 7 feet? 5'10 So you guys are all taller than me What about 5'8 Would you do 5'8 or 7 feet 5'8

Am I in the NBA If I'm in the NBA I'd rather be 7 feet But your life is harder Am I a millionaire sure There's still some girls out there that like short guys What's the average girl You need a gymnast 5'7

4'11 you You're fine. Gymnast? I don't know. 7 feet. You just said no to 6'6". Let's just move on. Here we go. This guy's 6'4", 220. I think we covered it. About a month ago, I got

invited by a friend to sit in an all-you-can-eat suite college basketball game in a pretty cool city. We'll leave it out. With 12 other guys all around the same age, my friend won the suite during a golf outing. Has no connection whatsoever to the owners of the box. Pre-visit, we were told.

All right, so we're talking about 12, 13 guys, same age. Guy wins the suite, doesn't pay for the suite. All right. Pre-visit, we were told alcohol would not be included. As suite rookies, our crew was shocked to find that when we got into the suite. There was a fully stocked refrigerator filled with tons of drinks, beer, wine, seltzer, even soft drinks.

As you can imagine, we all had a couple of drinks with some guys really getting after it, others having a relaxed night out. Even if everyone was drinking moderately, two beers apiece for about 15 guys at a stadium prices are not cheap. And we know some guys had way more than two beers. Fast forward to the group text next day when the guy that won the suite is telling us that

we all need to throw in 75 bucks a piece to cover the alcohol consumed. I personally had three beers. Should I eat the loss and just pretend in my mind I'm paying for tickets or say something about paying for some other fuck sticks night out? I guess some would say I'm on the outside of the Sprint group. It could also be said that I did the impossible by infiltrating this group at 28. But thanks to an awesome bachelor party, a couple of great weddings, just always being down to do anything and have a good time.

I've gotten to be super close to most of the group. Love the pod. Keep up the good work. All right. You just answered your own question, man. You're in with this friend group. You're psyched about being in the friend group. You worked it into the later age of 28.

You got invited to a suite, so you didn't pay for the tickets on top of everything else. Yes, I know it sucks when you're the adult and you're like, I just want to have a couple beers. I'm not in a contest to see how many beers I can race through by the time they kick us out of the suite. $75 for three beers is too much. But you know what?

Friendship costs? We don't even have a number for that. Not being that guy is worth $75. And especially if you're the new guy. So you want to make waves as the new guy we don't even have a number for that. Not being that guy, it's worth 75 bucks. And especially if you're the new guy. So you want to make waves as the new guy that's been welcomed into this group

by saying, hey, that's kind of bullshit. I get it. There's a part of me too that would go, hey, I had a couple beers, now I got to pay 75 bucks for this whole thing.

But let's talk about all of the costs. Let's talk about insurance. Let's talk about transportation. Let's talk about transportation. Let's talk about refrigeration. Let's talk about lease agreements. All right? You need to understand the full cost of stuff and your full cost of being in this crew,

which again was a free suite. And yes, guys, take the beers. The ratios are all off. Venmo them the 75 bucks. All right? That's it. Anybody? I would agree. I would assume you spend at least 100 bucks on a night like that. The fact that it was under 100 bucks,

if you said $300, I'd be like, that's a little aggressive. I don't know, man. It's just part of the night. It's part of going out. Yeah, you get the free suite, but think about it. You have to put that in there. I would say 75 bucks is nothing. Move on. I'm prepared to be completely hosed whenever I go out with a group of people.

I'm just prepared. I'm prepared for the worst always. And they got to eat. They got to eat too. Here's the thing. On the surface, you have to hang out with your friends in a suite and it only costs you $75. Have a couple beers. You take that every single time. We have too many guys, man take that every single time. We have

too many guys, man, that have an obsession with the ledger book of life where you're just always worried. If you have good friends, it usually evens out except for one guy who always sucks in the group. Clearly, I'm not even accusing you

of being that guy, but I don't know. The shoe fits. Yeah, and you usually have a side group of being that guy but i don't know the shoe fits yeah and usually have a side group text without that guy on it to talk about him i'd pay 75 bucks for 12 cool friends 12 that's too many i can't talk friends yeah that's the thing if you're sitting at a bar at your own tab like that's a controllable thing but if you decide to go out to a place where you're not in control you just got to to be ready to be host. And you weren't even host. So that's the good news. Yeah.

And no offense, but like anybody who starts going like, hey, guys, how are we doing the bill? Like you always lose. You always lose in that spot. And I know there's going to be so many people listening to this. They're like, hey, that's bullshit. The guy only had three beers. It does. Okay.

How many suites have you been invited to lately? You know, check any of the sweet stats, too, if you're going to debate that we're wrong on this one. That's life advice. Kyle, Steve, what's up? We've got a great show on Friday. We're going to talk with Van about a million different things. Van Lathan, who we just love having on the pod whenever we can.

And also Austin Rivers, NBA player. Fired up. Unless they cancel because NBA players sometimes don't always show up to their Zooms. We have a lot of hope for this one. Thanks. Subscribe. Listen. Spotify.

Ring of Podcasts. Thank you.