The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Super Bowl Stories, Plus Kevin Clark and Chuck Klosterman | Dual Threat with Ryen Russillo (Ep. 22)

Episode Date: January 30, 2019

Russillo goes through some of his Super Bowl memories in honor of Sunday's game (4:44), then he calls up Kevin Clark who is on the ground in Atlanta, GA to recap their NFL playoffs draft, and talk about some key factors in the Rams-Patriots matchup (20:27). Finally Russillo sits down with Chuck Klosterman to talk regional fandom, the CFB playoff structure, instant replay, and more (37:28). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, what's up, everybody? Happy Super Bowl week. I'm headed to Atlanta tomorrow, and I can't wait. Let me tell you. I don't really know what I have quite on the docket yet. There's a lot of invites, as you can imagine. A lot of plus ones. I don't even know if I have an invite to the espn

party anymore those used to be brutal used to be tough to get into that when you work there is my point and then like slowly i think year five or six something would show up in the old corp email and so i don't even have that unless i go to la live. So I didn't go this week. So I don't know. We, uh, we have no idea. And then I, I've never gone to the game.

I've never gone to the game and I've been to, uh, we're going to run through it. We're gonna do all my Superbowl memories for everyone that I've been to, at least for the host city. Kyle, you seem to be confused right now. You just seem like a guy who's been to a bunch of Superbowls and you just

drop the knowledge you've never been. I think to 10 and then I've never gone to the game. But you got to remember, for the times that I went when the Pats were in it, I would have to be back on the air on Monday in Boston, right? Then, especially with the show Monday in Bristol, trying to get from any city to Hartford. So think about it. Go to the game, it's over,

and then two flights into Hartford to be back on the air to do the show is impossible. And the thing is, is honestly, and I know this sounds really media-ish and lame, but when we would go down and you go down on a Saturday or Sunday, I mean, I think back in the day, you know, when I was younger,

I just wanted to get out of Hartford so bad that I would just go, all right, you know, sign me up for Friday. Can I go Friday? And then by the time, you know, Saturday's it's Saturday, you're out of there on Saturday. So I don't know if I'm going to stay Saturday night and then fly somewhere on Sunday. Cause I have to go back to the East coast at some point here. So you're going to keep the streak alive and not go to this game. Oh, there's no way I'm going to this game. I mean, unless something out of nowhere happened, I, I, I'm getting on the plane tomorrow with zero intention of actually going to the football game. And I'm not trying to, it's a good philosophy. All the other times

it happened, it was very much because of the necessity of having to be back and be back on the air on Monday. So there you go. And one year when I stayed in Miami until Sunday, I had some flight delays where it was when the Saints won their Super Bowl where I almost didn't make it back in time to watch the game. And then I was going to have to do the show without watching the Super Bowl. You just quit at that point, right? Yeah. Like, man, they hit him in the mouth, committed to the run to the run spread them out you know and just they wanted it more okay so

here's what we're gonna do chuck closterman is hanging out the ringer studios today so we're gonna talk with him uh i've never met him so i'm actually kind of looking forward to that he's a really interesting guy i've read a couple of his books i'm not gonna lie and tell him i've read all of them because that would be a lot i think he's on i don't how many, there's one that I bought that I haven't read yet. So I'll just be honest about that. I'm going to talk with Kevin Clark. He won our playoff draft. So yeah, it wasn't, wasn't even close. And I knew when the draft went down, I'm like, this went poorly quickly because I had to kind of go all into my chargers thing. And once the LA chargers went down, I was like, okay, I'm in some trouble here.

So he has both teams that are in the Super Bowl. And all the Super Bowl stuff, I'm going to go through and try to give you a memory from every single one of them to start the podcast. So that's the plan. Yahoo Daily Fantasy starting the year off hot with a $500,000 fantasy football contest that has zero management fees. That means Yahoo is making nothing on this contest. Less players equals better odds for you. More than one in five people who play will double

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be a ton of work. Not that I don't want to put a lot of work in this for you, but you know, you get the point. Like, all right, do I want to vote on what's the best Superbowl? So the first Superbowl I ever went to work was back in our old 1510, the zone days in Boston. Most of you won't get that reference, nor should you. It was a station that I worked at in 2003 to like, uh, I don't even know if I made it into oh six. I, I think I was canned right at the end of oh five, beginning of oh six. I think it was right before oh six. And it was a layoff. It was a mass layoff. So it wasn't like anything happened or anything like that. And the thing that sucked the most about it is that I was just given a contract extension, which they avoided, which is really nasty.

So what we did get to do, though, and we had a guy, John Anik was my co-host now with USC. Before that, it was another guy named Mike Wynn, who was the manager, who's now with Boston College. Great guy. And then this dude, Anthony Pepe, who was the all-timer. He was a marketing guru who also was like the programming guy. And then they laid everybody off and then he was my co-host. And we had a show one day where he wrote down like 50 ideas on a legal pad. And I was the worst co-host ever because I was super annoyed that like, I didn't know what the hell was going

on. And he was my co-host and he just sat there. He's like, so what do you think about the, uh, the new Redskins, uh, uniforms? And I was like, ah, I don't know. They'd be like, what do you think about, what do you think about Yawkey way closing down the vendors? And it was just like, that's what he was doing. And I didn't, I wasn't good enough at the job to understand that he needed my help as his co-host to play along. But what that guy was brilliant at doing, doing and he became he was the heart and soul of the show when he went down to radio row that was pep time he owned that freaking place so the first one we did is super bowl gotta be 38 right um yeah 38 because i can remember where i was for almost every well i should be able to remember where I was for almost every, well, I should be able to remember where I was for all these, I'm not 100. I didn't make it to the New Orleans one.

I sat by myself in my apartment in Princeton, Plainsboro. Tampa, I went back to my dad's. That was 03. God, I was watching that at his place. And then I was on the road. So Reliant Stadium, Houston, New England. So I wrote down some memories. I think one of my favorites for that, because back then I couldn't get into anything.

I mean, I've just, you know, I wore my best banana Republic stuff that I got with the right coupon. I had every Chino imaginable. I didn't, I was so like, nothing was going to work for your boy. And everybody's like, oh my gosh, you're going to Houston Super Bowl week. And Super Bowl week is, it's Mardi Gras for celebrities.

It really is. And I wasn't one then. And I'm borderline one now anyway. But at least I can get into stuff. And then it was, can we get in anywhere to anything? And everyone is collectively like, no. Nobody wants to invite us to anything. We get a pop-up table out over here.

We're interviewing everyone possible. And our guy Pep will grab anybody. He'd be like, hey, hey, I can get Paul McGuire. I'd be like, oh my God, are you serious? We got to talk to Paul McGuire. That'd be incredible. Jim Plunkett's walking around. Are you serious?

Can we get, just ask Jim Plunkett if we get like seven or eight minutes. Because if you're doing a local radio and you're out of radio row with these other hundreds of radio shows, it's a free for all and nobody was better than Pep. And I do remember JT the Brick

because Pep used to work on JT the Brick's show and JT the Brick sat down and he was really nice to us. And JT's kind of looking at us being like this is the show this is the show it's you guys like Anna could have been an intern I was this guy that did minor league baseball and they thought was good so they kept me around I wasn't making any money anyway and then the marketing guy pep he became he he drove the show and he's like look at you doing afternoon drive in boston and he kind of was like this doesn't make any sense man and it didn't make any sense but that was the

uh the first one that we did and i think what i liked the most about that was that we met master p and master p said he was going to invite us to the dem jeans party and i was like seriously like yeah he's like yeah come on by dem jeans and i went all right this is actually he was going to invite us to the Dem Jeans party. And I was like, are you seriously? Like, yeah, he's like, yeah, come on by Dem Jeans. And I went, all right, this is actually, we're going to get invited to a party. He did not invite us to the Dem Jeans party. And I did give him my business card, which had a Celtic logo. And he, at that point, was still flirting with the idea of trying to be in the NBA. And he was like, wait a minute, can I keep in touch with you?

Because, you know, can you get me a tryout with the Celtics? I'm like, no, no, you see that I'm the guy that just worked on this terrible show. The next year I went to Jacksonville. Jacksonville was a free-for-all because it was so, it shouldn't have had a Super Bowl. It shouldn't have had a Super Bowl and they got one and everything was all over the place. You couldn't get anywhere and I don't know how this happened.

It did look like an Eminem video of just a million young Eminem-looking Philly guys against a bunch of young-looking Boston guys. And there had to be a million fights. We never really made it out of that area. The one night that we did, there was nothing really that great going on. Again, we couldn't get in any parties,

but I was in a limo. No, no, not a limo. I was in like a town car with some guy that was a writer and I've seen him on NFL network stuff. And all he did was swear about Jacksonville for a good 45 minutes while we didn't move in traffic. And he just said, this fucking city, this, this is a fucking joke. NFL on an eye.

All he did F bomb left and right the whole time. And, uh, it was a miserable, miserable car ride. The NFL on and on. All he did, F-bomb left and right the whole time. And it was a miserable, miserable car ride. So that was Jacksonville. So those are the first two. Then your boy hooks up with the network. Then your boy is now hosting a show, the SVP show, on South Beach, full stage, full setup, full TV, camera, the whole deal. And that was sick. That's when your boy will,

was all growns up at that point. Um, well, not entirely true, but you get the point. So with the SPN, the W had a party. That's where we hung out with Matt Ryan and JPW. Um, and inside that, I think it was a CA party at the W in Miami. It was one of the sickest parties I've ever been to. And they had an inside part of their own party that was private. And I remember my agent at the time too, was like, you have to show up at seven to get in. And I was like, I'm a client. That was, Hey, here's a, here's a, here's a sign for you. If you're, if you're signed on as a client anywhere and they're having the party and they're having a hard time getting you into their party, that's a really good sign that you're not a huge priority.

I'm just going to go ahead and throw that. That's a life lesson out there. But yeah, then A-Rod and Derek Jeter got inside of the special part of the party. And that was like a big deal because then everybody in the party was great. And then, of course, everybody just wanted to go to the other part that was even more special and they weren't letting on into that. Then it turned to this big thing where everybody tried to get in and they couldn't, and they got upset when originally the whole party was good. Bill was there. I saw Bill and house there. They were there and house. Yeah. House was there. He brought him

down. Okay. Then, um, we made it over to trying to think, oh, yeah, the ESPN party that year in Miami was Fountain Blue. And it took for no exaggeration over an hour to get in and get in through security. So you came in through the front with your invites. And then by the time you actually got into the party, it took almost an hour for everyone to go through. And I remember Berman cutting everybody, which he should have. And I'm not calling out Berman at all. Like Berman should have cut everybody.

And you could hear Levy being like, let them in, let them through. And whoever they had hired out to do security for that, it wasn't ESPN security because ESPN security has been awesome at those parties. It was the biggest screw up of any single party that I've ever gone to. And my date was dying and it was hot in this sweaty hallway and there was nothing you could do about it. You were stuck in there. And then once you get into the party, it was great. But at that point it was too late. Okay. Arlington, not as long a lines, but it was freezing. It was so cold. Ice storm the entire week, went to the sports party one time and we were driving back and the

guy wanted to drop us off on the side of the road because he didn't want to have to drive further back into Fort Worth and drop us off because we were like going past his exit where he lived and people were like you can't just drop us off on the side of the road in a storm so people started yelling at him I was at the EA party and I remember Sheree from the Atlanta Housewives ex-husband was there. And I went up to him and I introduced Cassidy Hubberth to him. I was like, hey, this is Sheree's ex-husband. I was like, man, she's crazy on that show. He's like, tell me about it. They've since gotten back together. So hopefully

I never run into him again. And we also had on the marquee of Fort Worth, it said, welcome Mike and Mike and Colin Cowherd and Van Pelt about damn near lost it on everybody because they put our setup on a balcony in a parking garage, overlooking just stuff. And like the first show we did,

we were like, are you guys seriously doing this to us? And they did. Uh, everything was, everything was cold. Everything was freezing. Then we went to Indy.

Uh, the only thing we said about indianapolis is everyone kept saying this is so convenient everything's so close everything's right next to each other and that's what everybody said in indy the entire time indy uh indy was good new orleans that was uh that was incredible because we were right there on bourbon street. It felt a little overwhelming, almost scary at times, but you find a way through it. Ended up at the Maple Leaf, seeing different stuff, doing stuff New Orleans style that I'd never done before and really started to grow an'd really, really blown up. And he tweeted out, who's going to get more girls this week? Cause we were out together. And, uh, the girl that I was dating saw that tweet and he immediately drove down to New Orleans and moved into my hotel room for the rest of the week. So, uh, that didn't, you know, look, it worked out. Everything, everything's fine. New York city. Let's see. What was, what was the best memory from that? Oh, you know what? I was in the celebrity flag football game and then they tweeted out the

rosters and I saw Tom Arnold on there. And then I tweeted out something like, Oh my God, he's not dead. And it was really mean. And I didn't know Tom Arnold at all. And I don't even know why I did it. It was really punky to do. And then he went at me like crazy, but he was doing it. And they're like, Oh, I'm going to get you or whatever. And, uh, there was also this, this thing that I'd had from Scott and I, when I did the celebrity basketball game, like he, he big brother me a little bit and I deserved it at times, no doubt. But if you have it happening to you, even when you know it may be right down the road, you don't like it when it's happening to you. So then it was the second time around and we were doing, he was like, are you going to be a psycho in the football game and be a jerk? And I was like, what are you saying? He

goes, well, you know, he's like, I know you do competitive. He's like, you know, we had to talk about your approach to the basketball game. So I was like, Hey, shut up, dude, just shut up. So I said, shut up to him on the show. He was really, really mad about it. And then I went out and caught the game winning touchdown over Deion Sanders. So don't worry about it. Yeah, so that was New York. So is that, did I just bang out all the Van Pelt ones? Let's see, Miami, Arlington, Indy, New Orleans. We did Arizona.

Arizona was probably start to finish the most fun I've had every night seemed to be great we were in Scottsdale that was the EA sports party where Stanford Steve famously started booing Florida Georgia line off the stage and whatever it was we had just a group of like 10 deep and it's the best it's the best Super Bowl week I've ever had start to finish. Uh, yeah. All right. Yeah. I'll, I'll, I'll say it is, even though I just, something popped in my head where I was like, that wasn't a very good time. I was like, yeah, okay. But we're not going to get super personal on that. Um, that was start to finish the great, you ever have like a crew where that's five deep, 10 deep or whatever. It just sort of worked. The EA party that night was

one of the most, like, it just worked. Like little John was there and then Nelly came out, but in between Florida Georgia line got booed by everybody that was in the group because they just didn't want it to keep happening. All right. Then it was the wake-up call of wake-up calls because once Van Pelt was no longer my host, my co-host, they put Danny and i at a picnic table in radio row so we went from the main stage of the espn for six years to hey rossillo times they are a changing here's your setup no signage off like to the side and it was so bad that a couple suits walked over and like did the hand over the mouth talking thing because they were so embarrassed and i went hey i don't know what like do you guys want me to go crazy right now with how disappointed i am i go you told me okay i'm not gonna be on the main stage you told me we're

gonna be in radio row i was like all right that's the real you know it sucks for us because you this was never the way it was before i I was always with all the main stuff with ESPN. And so I just, I don't want, I don't want everything to be going in reverse. And they're like, no, don't worry about it. It'll be great. And it wasn't. And it was so bad. They admitted how bad it was. And also JJ Watt came over, sat down, did the interview at the very beginning with Danny and I and said, Hey, I know you guys don't like me very much, so let's do this. And we were like, oh man. And then he said goodbye. Everything's okay. And then our producers like, Hey JJ, real quick. Can we get a shot with you and Danny and Ryan? And Watt looks at us like

you losers. Like you're calling me out for social media stuff on your show. And then you stopped me to take a picture with you so you can tweet it out. i want to be like hey i don't need the picture and then the next year was houston uh radio row at that point um i didn't really what did we do i didn't i don't think i made it to the espn party at that point i was kind of over all of it. I really was. And then the next year, they're like, hey, you're not even going. So here I am. So let's talk with Kevin Clark, and we'll get some Super Bowl stuff coming from our guy. Before we get to Kevin Clark live from Atlanta, I want to tell you a little bit about Candid. Candid makes the process of straightening your teeth convenient and easy by letting you take the process in your own hands.

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It was a dominant performance. Yeah, I mean, I sort of, I felt the same way you did. I played the odds. I just took the teams with the bye, and I didn't take many sleepers. I wasn't proud of my performance, but I knew I probably had the stronger group of teams. Yeah, I think that's, that's totally fair. Once I had to go in with my Chargers deal, I knew, you know, I had to like stick to it. So if it was going to work, it was going to work and it didn't. Okay.

So you've covered a bunch of these. How is this Patriots approach? How is the whole Patriots storyline to this one, going up against a really good Rams team? How is this different from some of the other ones that you've covered? Well, I think the fact that this is Brady and Belichick's ninth is an interesting wrinkle because every team that comes to the Super Bowl pretends it's just another game.

And for the Patriots, it kind of is now. I mean, even though there's only three guys, I think the stat is only three guys who have played more than 40% of the snaps since the 2014 Super Bowl. It's Chung, McCourty, and Brady. But even though it's only those three guys, I mean, the vast majority of these guys have played in the Super Bowl before.

It's just very different. I think the Rams approach is a little bit, it's not starry-eyed, but they're definitely taking it all in. Whereas the Patriots, I know they probably try to do the business as usual approach all the time, but it's really coming off as very authentic right now. This really is just kind of business as usual for them. Have you picked a game yet? I think it's going to be the Patriots.

I can see a scenario in which the Rams play the perfect game, and obviously they have incredible talent on defense. The interior pressure thing to me is the game. The fact that Aaron Donald leads the NFL in interior pressure. Tom Brady, when he's pressured up the middle, his quarterback rating in this playoffs is 64. So if Donald and Stu can get consistent pressure, that's the game. I just believe in the power of, A, Tom Brady getting rid of the ball quickly,

David Andrews and Joe Toney up the middle, and then, you know, Dante Skarniecki. I believe in the sort of core of that offense and our ability to neutralize in some way Aaron Donovan and Dominick Nsou. Dante Skarniecki is the O-line coach, for those that don't know, and I would argue he's the most underpaid person involved in the NFL. I don't know what it is that he does. It's unbelievable what he is able to put together.

And especially as you see things improve. Not that they had bad personnel this year, but there's other years where it's been a little looser personnel. And then the time where he was away from it. And I don't know what they'd said to him, but they had to have just begged him to be like, please come back because it's not the same. Yeah, I don't understand why some'd said to him, but they'd had to have just begged him to be like, please come back. Cause it's not the same. Yeah.

I don't understand why some team doesn't just give a massive godfather offer. I don't either. And to say fix this, it almost reminds me a little bit of Leo Mazzoni with the Braves like 20 years ago, where he just like would just randomly make the fifth starter of the Braves into a young candidate.

It's like just hire that, just double that guy's salary and be much better and that's sort of how i feel about every nfl team the offensive line is so important everybody's offensive line sucks all these guys are coming in uh from from college offense they've never put their hand in the dirt before there's so much development needs to be done and there seems to be five offensive line coaches who have figured this out and no one seems to see the inefficiency and just giving that guy a boatload of cash. All right.

The other side of the ball, cause I don't want to just do a whole Pat's thing here. I felt like with golf, um, you know, I can understand like the arguments against him, but there's some other stuff in there with him, his athleticism.

I still think that that throw where he rolls out to his right and hits Everett, the tight end, uh, there's, there's moments with him where I think there's some physical abilities that I think are really kind of up there with anybody. I'm not saying he's a top five quarterback or any of those things, but there are throws that he has that I think are among the special guys in this league. And maybe it took me longer than it should to figure out some of that stuff. But I guess the more I watch him, even if he doesn't have a great game,

I know he wasn't great against Dallas. I didn't need him to be great against Dallas. And some of the games where he slipped up, I mean, look, even Breeze hasn't been great really in the second half.

I just think there's more to him than maybe he's given credit nationally. I mean, it's one thing to have the stats with McVay, but there are certain throws that he puts together. I'm like, man, that's like a special guy throw. Yeah, and even the run, the game-stealing run against Dallas.

There was some athleticism there. I think that we've swung too far in the wrong direction with Goff. He did have the talent to be the first overall pick. He had one year under Jeff Fisher. Jeff Fisher wasn't even drawing up offensive schemes for him. He looked lost. I think he had very similar numbers to Andrew Walter, I think, his rookie year as far as rookie quarterbacks go.

That's where he was rookie year. But I think we've flown too far into this system thing and this sort of idea that Sean McVay is telling him everything to do. Sean McVay is a great, great play caller, and his ability to put golf in position 60 cannot be overcovered, I think. But you have to remember, he still does have a lot of natural talent. I totally agree with you. I probably think there's probably double-digit quarterbacks

who could do what golf does in that system, but it's not like everybody can do it. He still has a lot of natural ability. I think we've somehow overlooked that, even though we've written an underdog narrative about literally the first overall pick two years ago. It's a very strange thing that's developed. Yeah, that's, I think, you know, this thing with McVay, and you were making the jokes about the Bud Light Lime thing. But have you ever seen anything like this with McVay?

Anything where it didn't, like, you just, just if you had a time share with him at some point that you are obviously ready to coach an NFL team? So I saw Chris Shula last night, who's their assistant linebackers coach, who played Miami of Ohio with him and I think they were roommates together

and I was looking at him, I don't know anything about Chris Shula, again he's a defensive coach, but I think Chris Shula. Again, he's a defensive coach, but I think Chris Shula is just going to be randomly mentioned as a head coach next year because he's a young guy who's got the bloodlines and he knows Sean McVay. And I think it's a very odd thing that's developed. Again, I've never said anything like it. The Cliff Kingsbury thing, I think was a bridge too far.

I can understand if you want to go the Zach Taylor direction or the Matt McClure direction, whatever. I mean, I think there's bridge too far. I can understand if you want to go the Zach Taylor direction or the Madeline third direction, whatever, I mean, I think there's better candidates out there, but to, to hire Cliff Kingsbury and then literally in the press release to say, he's friends with Sean McVay after everybody had already joked about that.

That was just outrageous. And I think it's, you know, it's owners who aren't really adaptable and they made the decision two months ago, we got to get an offensive guy. I had one friend who said to me, he knows a lot about the league,

and he said, they basically all saw Chiefs-Rams and said, I want this. I want to play in this game. And then once the coaching market had developed and they realized, even though there were eight openings and almost all eight were going to go to offensive coaches, they didn't realize that there was oversaturation in the market.

And, and that was the real funny thing that we learned is that not one owner, except Steven Ross looked at us and said, I'm someone here is going to be stuck with the seventh best offensive coach of this cycle. And I'm going to go and hire Dave Tope, or I'm going to hire some special teams, ace or a defensive coordinator.

I mean, seven owners said, we got to get the offensive guy. And that was just, it was bizarre. Yeah, it is. It is. But I understand. I mean, I knew, maybe not to this extreme,

but I remember when Kingsbury stuff, the rumors are still floating out there when they were struggling at Tech where I'm going, somebody's going to go, I want that guy guy though i want him coaching me in the nfl i thought maybe more likely to be an offensive coordinator but then when it all kind of came together like actually i'm not surprised that this ended up happening even though it seems absurd for a coach to have that record at that program and then it doesn't work out well and there's also the matter of just,

everyone's misunderstood the lessons of McVay. McVay, if you're around the Rams, he's built a culture. And I know that in the analytics-driven stuff, and I certainly move in all of analytics, we overlook culture sometimes, we overlook responsibility, that kind of thing. He has built a really good program here.

And it's not just about man-beater route. It's not just about the offense. And I think that if every owner interviewed their guy and said, okay, they can do this, they can build a McVay-like culture, that's fine. But if they just think the offense is going to solve all of their problems, they're wrong.

I just think owners are learning the wrong lessons from the Rams. What happened with Gurley in the NFC title game? We just found out that running backs don't matter again for the, for the 50th time. I mean, I just think that I do think there's some, some injury problems.

I really do. And I think that, you know, you saw that at the end of this season where Gurley was still battling that injury and he still was trying to grind it out. I really don't think he's a hundred percent, but I also think Ryan that the running back position by nature is never a hundred percent. And that's why you can't go out and pay these guys a lot of money. It's because they But I also think, Ryan, that the running back position by nature is never 100%. And that's why you can't go out and pay these guys

a lot of money. It's because they're pretty much always operating at max 85-90%. They just take too many hits over the course of the season. C.J. Anderson is fine. I mean, I think that one of the amazing things about this year is that even though we talk about the passing numbers,

it was the highest yards per rush this year in 2018 at any season in history, 4.42. There's never been any season of 4.3. Every running back can be good now. It's almost like the quarterback. And so you plug in C.J. Anderson, he's fine. I just think it's more about the nature of that position. I just think that it's not anything with, you know,

with the girly choking or anything like that. I think it's a mixture of just being banged up. And the fact that, you know, in, in certain spots, you can scheme stage TJ Anderson to look like Todd girly. And that's,

that's the advantage of McVay. And that's the advantage of offense in 2018. Everybody thinks Gronk's really going to retire after this game, huh? It's yeah. I, I, I've been asked that a lot. I mean, 2018. Everybody thinks Gronk's really going to retire after this game, huh? Yeah. I've been asked that a lot. I mean, I think he was pretty close last year. I mean, he was ready to retire

instead of playing for the Detroit Lions, which I can't blame him. I guess... I mean, I know he's been through a lot, but I just always think this stuff is kind of funny. He's like, well, he has a great career ahead of him.

What is it again? Well, there was a story in Sports Illustrated today about how he's going to be the next The Rock or something. It's like, I don't know about that, guys. Yeah, I don't know that. I mean, maybe when Schwarzenegger, if you go back to the beginning of his story, everybody kind of made fun of him. He was like, yeah, I'm going to go to California and be a movie star. And I was like, dude, you barely speak English. Are you kidding me?

So I guess nothing is impossible. But I guess I just feel like he's still so young, even though it's a sport that ages you. And it's like there's always that NBA thing that'll happen too. Be like, oh, you know, so-and-so wants to go out there and do movies and do all these different things. And you go, you know, for most of these guys,

it doesn't, it doesn't mean everything it is. Like Anthony Davis is probably not going to start doing movies if he lives in LA. I don't think so. You know, like what the hell

is Anthony Davis going to be? And be like, oh, Sicario 3. Well, yeah. I mean, I remember Jason Taylor was trying to do that when he was with the dolphins. It was like, Oh, he wants to be the rock.

And it's like, I don't think that really, there's a lot of athletes who tried to be actors and failed. I mean, it's, it's LeBron is a different, is a different, uh,

is a unicorn in that sense. I mean, it's just, he came out here when he was able to start his own production company. I don't know if Anthony Davis is going to start selling shows to Showtime and stuff. Yeah, but even LeBron, like, and they've done a good job with the production company and selling some shows, but, like, he plays himself in a comedy. Like, okay. Right.

Well, then what? I mean, is he going to play, you know, if they remade Taxi Driver? Like, you know what I mean? taxi drivers. You know what I mean? There's only so many things that you can do when you're a really... If you're too famous sometimes, it can be distracting from being cast in an actual role.

And so, you know, he's done The Voice in one of the cartoons, and then they've done a bunch of their own kind of, you know, their own production type shows, but I'm with you. Like, Shaq did Shazam and Steel you imagine like skyscraper no like like if you put bronc and skyscraper that's an unwatchable movie

i didn't watch it when it was the rock yeah yeah that's that's just not a bad movie with the rock is it all right yeah i'll check it out like The Rock, for me, like Walking Tall, I'm like, Ian, I had a real, like, whatever The Rock is doing, count me in. Run down. Run down. Oh, Kyle, off the top rope. But it's just, I mean, unless the deals are already there, and then sometimes, like, the newness, it's almost like the Jason Witten thing, like, okay, who just finished? Okay, fine, we'll pay you a ton of money because you just got done so maybe there'd be something but i thought

everybody that worked the wwe complained about it so i you know i don't know i don't know i i hope yeah i hope if he's retiring it's because he truly doesn't want to play football anymore even though this year wasn't at the gronk standard i'd hate for him to retire sooner i just never want guys to stop playing before they're ready to and maybe he he is, and maybe I should just shut up about it. Or maybe if he took a year off, he'd be like, you know what I really miss is playing football because I'm awesome at it. Yeah. I totally agree with you.

And I also think, Ryan, the media does something, and I'm probably guilty of it too. We did this with Kyler Murray a little bit, where we put ourselves in the shoes of the athletes, not understanding that they play football because they love it. So we look at it and we say, what a great move for Gronk to get out of here with the money and not understanding that they play football because they love it. So like we look at it and we say, Ooh, you know, what, what a great move for Gronk to get out of here with the money and not play football again. And he gets to leave healthy. Well, he's in the NFL because he's a football guy. I mean, for lack of a better term, you know, almost everybody at this level is a football

nerd in some way. You don't get through high school and college and, and, and this long of pros actually actively hating the game. There's, there's, you know, a handful of anecdotal people who've hated the game but most most guys are just dorks for the sport and love it and want to keep playing as long as they can if gronk has to retire it's because of the back thing it's because you can't continue on this pain but it's not like this savvy career move where you're just getting out because you don't like football we just we miscast maybe project a little bit the media because that's what we would do because we're not physical enough to get through a football game.

Yeah, absolutely. I try to remind myself of that and everybody that all the time. We are in such a rush to have these guys retire when we think it should be the best storyline. If Brady wins, oh, this would be the time to hang up. What if it makes Brady absolutely sick to his stomach of the idea of not playing football or going to training camp in July? What if he's like, okay, I get the Elway storybook thing,

but that's what you guys want from me. If I don't want it, then you guys should all shut up about it. And I think people completely forget that all the time, how bad guys actually want to just keep playing. Um, even if we think they should stop. So I'm, I'm always in favor of guys just, Hey, keep playing as long as they want to keep paying you. So when Bill Walsh retired, uh, he spent the rest of his life for regretting it. He literally talked about it for like two decades after he was like, I made an emotional decision. I should not have retired.

I should have kept coaching and he was miserable about it. That just bummed me out. Right? What podcast do you have coming up? You got one coming up with Mays here? We got some guests this week. Dan Orlovsky is coming on with us. Got some other folks down here from Atlanta.

Mays now have two shows this week. And they'll have a Sunday night show that'll post right after the game, and we'll break down everything from the stadium. Alright, sounds good, man. Thanks as always. Yeah, anytime, Ryan. Thanks. I got a text today. Simmons is like, hey, Klosterman's in town. So, author, renowned

observer of the world, Chuck Klosterman. Spent some time with him talking football and all sorts of stuff. But first, a word from Sonos. Sonos Beam is the smart, compact soundbar for your TV and newest addition to the easy-use Sonos Home system. Sonos supports over 100 streaming services and airplay so you can play everything you love and enjoy music, radio, movies, TV, podcasts, and more. Beam fills the room with rich, brilliantly clear sound. Enjoy deep bass and detailed stereo separation for music, plus crystal clear dialogue for TV and movies. Plus, the Sonos app walks you through setup step by step.

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today. That's Sonos, S-O-N-O-S.com. So this is cool. This is really cool for me. We'll get to a bunch of different things. But yeah, I just moved out here like six, seven months ago. So I've only lived in New England. So I was born in Connecticut, Massachusetts High School, Vermont College. And then I went back to Connecticut for like 10 years. So that was basically up until 40. And what's interesting is I have no idea where you're from. And yet I assumed you idea where you're from. And yet I

assumed you were an East Coast person. What do you think it is about the way you sort of presented yourself on air that made me correctly figure out where you're from? Oh, yeah. I actually think that's kind of easy to figure out because we're always it's not just to be cynical. I think whenever you do this kind of stuff in general, you become cynical, whether it's, you know, being a reporter, right. Or, or working in the media. But I just, I think there's an edge, an edge and unfriendliness perhaps like that. There's no, like when I go to, when I finally started traveling the country, you know, it wasn't really until I was like 30 and I finally had some money, you know, and I, I start going away for, to visit people or people or work. I'd be like, my God, the rest of the country isn't like the Northeast. Like they're nice.

Well, it's not even the I think the increase in niceness because I've met lots of people in New York who were super nice. But there is definitely an idea that like being a funny person means having an ironic distance from things, which as you move West seems to dissipate like living in Portland. Now people are not sarcastic. Why do they find it offensive in Portland? No, they just, they just aren't.

They just, it's like, it's not even, um, they wouldn't say that they wouldn't go around saying like, Oh, you know, uh,

I, I, sarcasm is, is disquieting or they're not they would they might even view themselves as sarcastic but not they aren't like so was it my sarcasm that you i don't know i don't know i never i'm trying i mean maybe like i can also think of like you were from philadelphia that was my guess oh wow that's so i don't that's even tougher than Boston. So Philly can be, Philly, I had a small run where I was in Trenton for like six months. And then I made it over to Philly a couple of times. I think part of it is I worked up, I grew up working construction with my father. Okay. So that was, that was after school weekends or summers. And you kind of had to have a little edge to you to survive on a job site, you know, because people were going to say stuff to you the entire time.

And then I noticed whatever it was is when I was in college, Vermont, every group was from a different pocket in New England. So they're all different New England guys. And if you couldn't survive in the room, then you just, you might as well just become invisible. So I think there was a thing where you had to like develop this edge where you had to be able to go toe to toe verbally with anybody the entire time. entire time and i think that's a very new england thing here's the other thing i know about you now isn't one of your policies as a broadcaster is that you don't want to discuss something unless you have watched the game yeah you have to okay so this is my question as a

follow-up then you talk about college. What is your college football watching schedule? How do you feel that you watch enough? Oh, yeah. Well, that would be, you know, I did that show for college game day for like six years, and that was our own version of it on radio. So, TVs, two hours, expanded to three. The radio show was seven hours long. So, it'd be noon Eastern to seven Eastern. And then I'd be on a site, usually two thirds of the season anyway. So if I was doing it at home in Bristol,

we'd have eight TVs going while I'm hosting the show for seven hours. And then I'd go home and watch the night games because from the beginning of when I started doing it 10 years ago, the night slate is just a deeper slate. Back then it used to have it dispersed better throughout the day. Do you always watch the Thursday game? I used to always watch the Thursday game, but then the Thursday game started falling apart a little bit because the Thursday game became better in the NFL. I used to love how great that college Thursday game was. Yes.

And that's fallen off. The Friday ones have gotten better. Do you watch the Tuesday Mac game? I don't watch the Mac game. Okay. Yeah. So I feel like you're poking at me a little bit. No, I'm just curious because the thing is –

I'll do 12 hours every Saturday. I would say that the – college sports are just different than pro sports. I don't know if it's really possible to be some – I mean you were in a situation with ATVs. I guess that's going to to what you can see. So you end up focusing on, oh, like I think a lot of people are like, well, I got to make sure I see the SEC game on Saturday. And then the night game is a national game or whatever. on Saturday. And then the night game is a national game or whatever. But it's hard, I feel, to be someone with a real complete understanding of college sports from only observation. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I think I'd had it down, you know,

whether it's working the remotes and having the three TVs. But I think you brought up something that was really interesting, like the connection to community that you have in college that I don't know if you have it everywhere in the NFL. I think you have in college that I don't know if you have it everywhere in the NFL. I think you have in Green Bay. You probably have in Kansas City. I'm sure there's other cities, but I remember I had this professor in school who argued that in the future that we would go in reverse and that we become more detached from pro sports, more detached from the owners, more detached from the players and start objectifying them, which I think is sort of happening now.

And then he goes, we would feel a sense of community through college, and we feel a closer connection, and that would become the more important sport. And then eventually, and he was talking like 15 years down the road on a timeline, that high school sports become the most important thing because that would truly feel like you would feel this closest connection with that. And I was like, I can't tell if it was brilliant or totally misguided. No, I mean, that's like a good academic theory. It seems to me the opposite has happened.

And I will say that, like, you know, I have very mixed feelings about the fact that, like, obviously, the college football playoff has been good. You know, it's been fun to sort of watch that. But I do feel like it is continually pushing collegiate sports to be more professional. And I don't know if kind of from a big picture thing if I'm happy about that. Like this idea of guys not playing in bowl games or whatever, that's a totally understandable thing. You can't really blame them for that. or whatever. That's a totally understandable thing. You can't really blame them for that.

But it does seem that, you know, now even a person, the idea of thinking that it's important to sort of win the Big Ten, you know, get to the Rose Bowl, it seems like only coaches still have that sentiment. The players don't at all. No, I remember one team in particular, it had been like two rose bowls in a row and then i talked to somebody and i was like how's it going and their aspirations are a national championship they didn't play in the national championship game and it was like ah we're going to the rose bowl again yeah that's how it is now and i can understand how that would be because but it's frustrating i you know i don't think it makes us sound old but there's nothing wrong with going 12 and 1 and winning the big 10 and winning the Rose bowl. But Ohio state fans can't believe they're not in the playoff. And that's, that's, that sucks.

It sucks. You can't even be psyched about that. So let's, let's say the, okay. The way college football played out this year, let's say it was 1985. Okay. So what do we have then? Okay. So we have Alabama playing in the sugar bowl, probably against Notre Dame, do you think? Would have gotten better? Yeah, all right, yeah. Okay, so Clemson's going to the Orange Bowl, probably playing Oklahoma. Or is Oklahoma in the Cotton Bowl? Well, now you're, I mean, I can go back and Google 1985 here.

Well, no, but it's complicated because the Big 12 was different, remember? Right. So the Big 12 used to always go to the Orange Bowl, and the Southwest Conference would end up going to the Cotton Bowl. But now they're kind of merged, right? Well, the Sugar is the SEC. Sugar is always the SEC. Right, right.

The Rose Bowl would be exactly as it was. Right, and they would put Notre Dame in that game. They would just say, go ahead. Well, because I feel like Notre Dame used to often play like Georgia in the Sugar Bowl, like when Herschel Walker was there and stuff. That would be – because Notre Dame was in – that was – in a way, that's when being an independent had a real value. You could go to pretty much any bowl game that would invite you. So they could play in the Cotton Bowl or they could play in the Sugar Bowl or they could play in the orange bowl. And when the fiesta bowl became a meaningful thing was the same situation. would the situation on January 1st been ultimately more interesting than the way the playoffs unspooled?

So basically what you're, you're talking about is just revisiting the whole idea of like, okay, let's see what happens in these New York games and then we'll see what the voters do. And that, you know, that was maddening to me as a,

as a football fan. I go like, I'm supposed to like just the concept of that. Like, I always try to think of, like, if you had a friend that didn't understand anything about sports, and they'd be like, well, tell me a little bit about, you know, your sports, some of your favorite sports. You go, well, in basketball, there's this pro league, and, you know, a bunch of teams make the playoffs, but really the right teams are always there at the end. And then after 82 games and three rounds, they play in the finals.

They go, okay. And then what happens in college hoops? You're like, well like well you know there's a million different conference tournaments it's all kind of get together but then they do single elimination this tournament's like the greatest thing ever okay cool cool well in college football we used to do this thing where you just had to geographically line up and play in that game and people actually still thought the rose bowl was like more important than anything else that was happening because the Rose Bowl brand was better. I remember being in ESPN meetings. They were like, we just want to make sure the Bulls survive because the Rose Bowl, like there was a brand awareness that the Rose Bowl had that was so far beyond any other property in college football.

So like we don't care how much it screws up things like that's still very important. Right. But if you had to go, well, then they just vote and there's a bunch people in a room. Like they used to just vote and that's who was the champ. And now they vote and they have the four teams play. They'd be like, that's the dumbest thing ever. Well, but it was,

okay. You could say it was dumb. If you view it from the professional perspective, which is that the most important thing is clarity over the champion. But if you don't think clarity over who the champion is like okay so these january first in this hypothetical situation happens okay so we're talking about kind of the old yeah okay so because i'm wondering i'm trying to read you here on that like if you're i want to let you continue explaining because i think i know where your theory is going well i don't know if i i just

okay if the if the if we get to the idea that like really this is this is all just entertainment. Right. And it's entertainment from what we see on the field and also the experience outside the field sort of talking about this. Right. Like it's it is I think while in a lot of ways it would make sense to go to an 18 playoff where you have like all the five power teams go in, you know, two wild cards and then one mid-major like, you know, UCF or whatever would get in or whatever. But by having four teams, sort of the conversation about college football happens throughout the year, which is – it doesn't happen that way in the NFL. throughout the year, which is – it doesn't happen that way in the NFL. It just doesn't.

Like that because there's like a limited position to win the national championship, you have to be in that position. We kind of talk about it constantly. But say this situation I described, if it was still the way it had always been, the way we grew up watching this. And of course you sound like a reactionary saying anything old could be better than anything new. But let's say that it was. So Alabama plays Notre Dame. I think probably, you know, Alabama wins handily.

Oklahoma Clemson is a pretty interesting game in the Orange Bowl, but you know, Clemson probably wins that. Or if Oklahoma's in the Cotton Bowl, you know, so that would all happen. Alabama ends up finishing the year number one. Now, as it turns out that when Alabama played Clemson, Clemson was the better team. But in this situation, even if Clemson finishes number two, they're in the same position to argue that they were the best team. You know what I'm saying? Like a lot of times. Yeah, of course. Well, I mean, this still isn't, I mean, Utah was doing this. Yes. You know, 10 years ago. Auburn, 14 years ago, being left out. But I think what you're saying is,

would it be better to sit there and have more teams feel successful, kind of like how it used to feel? If you won the Rose Bowl and you were a Big Ten champ, Rose Bowl champ, you just – I mean, it was almost like, okay, fine, we are or we aren't number one in the polls, but that doesn't really matter. We're the Big Ten Rose Bowl champs. Now you can be Big Ten Rose Bowl champs and you're supposed to like not even care about that. Like that's been devalued.

That's a bummer. And I think coaches, like you said, coaches are going, hey guys, we ended up 13-1. We won the Rose Bowl. You know, some kids get to play in one Rose Bowl and that's the highlight of their entire career, but because we've placed such an importance on ultimately who ends up being a champion, who ends up being number one, that it's devalued every other thing.

So the conversation, yeah, I get that. After the season ends, there are three important games. And I feel like there used to be more. And if what we're looking for is the highest number of entertaining games, I don't know if this system actually is better, even though, you know, the idea of watching the national championship in football, like the singular game that is very exciting. And, you know, but I just I kind of think a lot about it because I have this college football is my favorite sport to sort of consume. And who'd you grow up rooting for?

Well, Nebraska and Notre Dame. I was in North Dakota. So Nebraska was essentially the regional team. It's three states away. But I mean, it was like no one's going to root for the Gophers, you know, and like everybody in my family is Catholic. So they just everyone was just part of the deal. I never, ever remember that not being perfect and then you know i okay the very first year that i ever really followed football closely clemson won the national championship okay remember this was like 1981 i think it was

um i think was there a quarterback like homer gillis or something i can't i remember they want you know they beat they beat nebraska in the orange bowl and they won the national championship. So I was sort of under the impression. It was like, well, Clemson is one of these kind of power teams. So I was always a fan of Clemson. I also love the color orange.

I'm like, kind of like the way Prince was with purple. I am with orange. I like all orange things. Like everything in my life, my office is orange, everything I can see. So you're really into orange.

Yeah. I like orange anything. Like, okay. So I've always, I've always been a Clemson fan too. It was odd that after that championship year, it was sort of like I sort of came to realize that for the longest time, Clemson came to epitomize choking. But that's over now.

Yeah, they're back. They're back. I would say not back. I would say they are a different thing now. Yeah, yeah. Like everybody thought – I remember as a little kid, like my dad and my older brother is being like Nebraska is going to beat Clemson. Clemson will blow this. And then they, you know. Yeah, that actually is one of the things before Clemson had gotten back to this point.

And you're right. I shouldn't say back, but to a point of, hey, this is real and we're an established thing. And now we're right there with anybody that you have to think about. And that's what they've accomplished here, which is incredible in this unprecedented run of Alabama. But it was, for the longest time, it was like, you know, just because you won that championship, don't think that's the neighborhood you live in. The else, though, is just getting back to, like, who I rooted for. But, of course, I grew up rooting for North Dakota State

as a Division II team. I got you at four teams right now, Chuck. But being in North Dakota, the Bison were sort of covered as though they were a Division I team. You know, because there was nothing else there. So it felt, you know, like we'd listen to those games on the radio every

week and, you know, yeah, well, I mean, I didn't even go to Andy Ishu. I went to the UND. I went to the rival school or whatever, but as a little kid, that's who I was. Did you have to just disband the other one once you went to college? Well, you know, it was a strange deal. I went to college.

And of course, while I was at college, I rooted for the University of North Dakota when they would play NDSU. And even for the first couple of years after I was out of college, I still was. But then I started thinking like, well, you know, this is kind of weird. I still was. But then I started thinking like, well, you know, this is kind of weird. As a little kid from the ages of what, like eight until 18, I followed this one kind of great program. I went to UND because it's a better school academically. I paid them money to go there.

Like I paid them to go there. Like I gave them money and then I graduated and I was like, just supposed to keep rooting for them. I had actually had a longer relationship with North Dakota state. And then because North Dakota state is so successful, it became a team you could follow nationally. You know, I mean, I, I had never, the idea of North Dakota State being on ESPN is still bizarre to me. Like they were not televised locally when I grew up, you know. So then I could follow the Bison sort of nationally and then they were just so good and they're the best team to root for because they never seem to lose. I mean it's like – it almost a like a cheap kind of fandom it's like i have watched them on television lose like twice in my life so you still watch them when it's on right now i watch

them all yeah so that's well let's see they're on their regular season games are on that new espn plus plus yeah okay and you, I have two kids. So like the idea of being able to watch a full anything is like. And where do you live now? Portland, Oregon. Okay. That's right. You just said that.

And I just, the time zone is awful for a person with kids. Like the prime game is on from five until 8 p.m. I have a three-year-old and a five-year-old. They could not design a worse time for me. I mean, there's no way I'm going to be able to watch anything. So on the rare occasions that I saw the Bison were playing on and say my kids were with my wife and they were out. And I was like, I would try to like download ESPN plus to get on my television, but I could never kind of figure it out. And by the time I'd finally figured it out, it was like 27 to nothing.

So I was like, Oh, I'm not watching it now. Like, yeah, right. There's no suspense. And then the playoffs were on ESPN,

like the championship was on ESPN too. You know, um, I know that it was a big deal for, uh, for all the like game day and all those guys to go out there and stuff. And I think it's kind of back to that, that original thought of it like

i i think it's always that cool when something means that much to an area you know and people can look at numbers and in the population of these different places be like oh it doesn't matter it's like yeah but when you don't have much and you have something like that like you probably care about it even more than people realize. I mean, because there was, okay, so there, you know, there's a subdivision team and, you know, obviously the super dominant subdivision team.

So there are always this idea. It's like, well, should they try to get into the Mountain West? Or should they even try to get into, you know, the Big 12? Because, you know, it's like, and there are some kind of mechanical issues.

It's like the size of the Fargo Dome is limited. It's not, you know, but then you could argue like, well, they could kind of become like the Cameron Indoor Stadium of college football because it's so small or whatever. But like, I don't think game day ever goes to Fargo again if they're in the Big 12 because they're never going to win the Big 12 in all likelihood once every 40 years possibly or something. You know, there actually is a motive for them to be this hyperdominant subdivision team. Like, they get more attention in that role. Yeah, it's working out. So, yeah, why go six and six?

Exactly. Or even winning. Yeah. But I, I said, I guess that would just go, that could go back into the football program though. So it's like a circular thing. Get back to Chuck Klosterman in a second, but first, First Leaf. When the weather gets colder and the fun moves indoors, is there anything better than curling up on the couch with a great bottle of wine? Personalized to you from First Leaf. First Leaf has created a club experience customized to you by rating the wines you receive. First Leaf determines your likes and dislikes and only sends wine that you will love. Get started with First Leaf by answering three quick questions about your wine drinking preferences. First Leaf

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Actually makes no sense for you to not do this the more I read it. Just go to tryfirstleaf.com slash Russillo. R-U-S-S-I-L-L-O. Two S's, two L's. That's tryfirstleaf.com slash Russillo, R-U-S-S-I-L-L-O, two S's, two L's. That's tryfirstleaf.com slash Russillo. Oh, I was going to ask you something. So, and I have a sense that you maybe, I'm sure you probablyreaction to the failed pass interference call in the Saints-Rams game? You know what? I think I said this last week, but I am more than happy to walk into the oncoming mob

and try to figure out a way that they're wrong. Because sometimes this stuff just gets, you know, we don't, we don't ever want a team to be better. We don't ever want a team to just flat out win. We always have to find excuses. And I think we actually do that a lot in life. Like when things don't work out for you, rarely does the person go, you know what? I didn't do good enough of a job and I'm maybe not good enough for this. There's, there's always excuses. And sometimes the excuses are right. I know I've done it with different things. But this one is so egregious, Chuck. This one is so just out there in the open, the line judge, the back judge. And it's a call that the whole league

has been on like this just outrageous run of throwing flags all the time. And I know why they're doing it. They want to be over the top because they want it to be a safer league. And so even though there's going to be times on a Sunday where you're really, really mad and you can't believe how the game's being called, they're okay with it. And they don't care if the players are getting fined because they want them to always be thinking about doing something wrong. And so here it's this hit that's not even just PI. It could have been a couple other things. And it's really simple. Like I know the butterfly effect of, well, if this were called earlier and this were called earlier and all these different things. But that one was just so bad. Now, I'll go that far with it.

But then once you start telling me we got to go to court and they got to replay the end of it, like, then you've lost me. Like, then I can no longer do this. And the fact that Goodell, you know, Goodell's not going to do anything anymore. Cause you know what Goodell's figured out, like a lot of guys in power, they go, Hey, in the beginning, I wanted to address everything. I wanted to be really transparent. I wanted to, you know, be the, the, the, the face of the shield here. And I realized it's a total fucking waste of time because you're all going to get on my case, no matter what I do all the time anyway. And now nobody likes me. So you know what? I'm not even going to get on my case no matter what I do all the time anyway, and now nobody likes me.

So, you know what? I'm not even going to bother. Okay, well, this is kind of a weird way to get to my point about this. But, okay, let's say you're a basketball referee. You're refereeing a basketball game. There's one possession left. The team with the ball is down by two. And the guy goes into the lane and kind of does a, you know, he's not to the rim, but he's close to the rim,

and it looks like there's some contact. Is the likelihood that you call a foul in that situation the same as if they're down one or if the score is tied? Yeah, because to say I just called a foul the way I see it is, I think, a make-believe world. I think there is a I think, a make-believe world. I think there is a natural sort of inclination, and I don't think it's negative, that if a team is down two in that situation, the offensive player is going to get the benefit of the doubt. If the score is tied, the defensive player is definitely going to get the benefit of the doubt.

And if it's a one-point game, that's real complex. I think you're right. I think this actually does happen. But nobody ever wants to say that because then it leads to, well, OK, explain to me your thought on this. And then it leads to the gray areas. I mean, I think it happens all the time. I think it's just – I think it's the – you know, because your – there's – to me, the problem is greater if a clear penalty – or should I say this? If a penalty is called where there is none as opposed to a missed penalty. You know what I'm saying?

Like if if if a if a player is untouched and a foul is called, that to me is more troubling than if the referee just sort of making the human error of missing the contact. I mean, I guess you could say they're the same, but I see them slightly different. OK, in this situation. Yeah. I mean, it's not that I'm arguing that wasn't past interference, but. I think you hear enough of the critique, enough of the complaints that you end up getting sick of hearing about it, right? Well, we're talking about it's like, here's what I would say.

I was like, you know, OK, so when the play happened live, let's say that was the only way there was no ability to rewatch plays. When the play happened live, it looked like interference, although not to the degree it looked like interference upon, you know, all the, you know, follow up watch. I guess I don't really – I don't mind the idea that in a game that close, that late, officiating is not the dictating thing that decides who wins or loses the game. Now, you could say, well, it did anyways, right? Yeah, right. But I was – because I saw all these people saying this is clearly the worst call that's ever happened in a game this meaningful. Now, there was a game between the Oilers and the Steelers I think in 1979 and 1980, the second time they played in the AFC title game, where a guy for the Oilers caught a touchdown and he was ruled out of bounds. But people just kind of moved on from that.

They just kind of moved on from that call and was like, that's what happened. And the Steelers went on to win the Super Bowl. And it's like almost a forgotten thing. I mean, if guys are, people are going to miss calls sometimes. I don't, I don't, I'm just, I'm confused by the degree to which people think that the entire system has to be rebuilt now because this happened. Well, that's definitely something that happens all the time now. Like anytime something's wrong, like, okay, everybody beats the hell out of it for two days on talk shows. Like people were arguing the non-handout. So the Russell Wilson interception of Malcolm Butler, that that was the greatest or the single worst play call in the history of the NFL.

And I had even said, well, wait a minute. When you really think about it, though, they had to throw it with time, timeouts, all their situations. They were probably going to have to throw it at some point. Now the argument would be like, just hand it off to Marshawn, and then he runs it in, and then you don't have to worry about any of that stuff. The Monday after these games is maybe the worst time to talk about it because you're trying to outdo everybody else.

Nobody wants to come on and be like, I have that as the sixth worst call I've ever seen because just for the business that I was in, it didn't really do you any good. So everybody's going to outdo everyone else, and they just go right to the top and say it's the worst thing ever. I'm sure if I go back and really, really want to dig like that Oilers Steelers thing that you're pointing out, there's calls out there that fans of their team right now are remembering them like, wait a minute, what

about this call? What about that call? I think the combination of it being the only game on at that time and the way receivers are protected and the safety issue. And I know when I was watching it live, I was like, okay, where's the flag? Where's flag where's the flag and then oh my god are you kidding me there's no flag on this and then i kept waiting for like okay there's a flag there's the late flag over there as the two guys pointed each other and then it never happened and had it happened the game's over that's it saints win the game sure sure that's true that's true that would have, you know And it would have sort of been A very anticlimactic finish to that game I guess I'm one of the last people

Who seems to think that Instant replay is not really a positive for the sport Oh no, I'm with you there I hate it I hate it because How many times do you watch and you go Wait a minute I thought this was supposed to get it right

And I'm watching it And that still looks wrong And that you go, wait a minute, I thought this was supposed to get it right. And I'm watching it and that still looks wrong. And that's only part of it. Okay, this is a good example. The situation in that game is a good example where we have instant replay. This thing that delays the game so consistently and makes the game much more difficult to watch and enjoy and still doesn't really matter in that situation. But I even have sort of like this larger thing like, OK, so humans play the game. The games themselves have no inherent meaning. Like this is all something we've made up.

It took us a lot longer than I thought to get this deep, Chuck. But doesn't it seem almost embarrassing that we need to implement instant replay for what are essentially entertaining exhibitions? But see, that's, that sentence in itself, sure. But what it is, is the reason we have it is because of Monday or the Monday after that game. We have it because you go, okay, well, we need to get this right. So then baseball is like, all right, maybe we need to get it right too. And basketball is like, yeah, we need to work on this and get this right. You know, many times in the last two minutes, like think of this, if I'm guarding you and I foul you and the ball goes off your hands, the replay issue is like, well, we can't call

fouls. We can only call who the ball is off of. So even though you were fouled Chuck by Ryan, it's still Ryan's ball because he fouled you, but it's off of you. And then I go, so you guys actually get around and like have these committees, put all these rules into place. And it's somebody who watches as much as, you know, you do, or I do, or it hasn't worked. It's, it's almost like, Hey, we are doing something to calm the masses, but at the same time, like we're just making it more confusing and more frustrating and the game, you know, how many games were you sitting there and you're like, I want the emotion of the shot going in. And then I have to wait.

I'm going to wait three minutes. Yeah. Well, I mean, the only situations where I feel like it does seem justified is whether or not a shot was released before or after the buzzer at the end of a basketball game, because that is a situation where for, you know, 39 minutes and nine seconds or for 47 minutes and 58 seconds or whatever, the game was exactly a tie. So this one shot does dictate whether or not a team has won or lost. And I don't mind going when they check to see if it left his hand in time or the light on the backboard was on. But for the most part, I feel like, you know, I spend so much time watching sports. I'm almost at times embarrassed about it that so much of my life is devoted to watching. Adults play a game that kids play for huge amounts of money.

And I am, you know, taking hours away of my life to watch this. Sometimes when an instant replay situation comes up and I realize that they can't, they don't feel like it's that this is so important that they have to check a camera to see if it's a touchdown or if it's first and goal from the one. I'm like, this is stupid. Like, I'm embarrassed of myself. Like, like, it's not that, you know, it almost it makes it seem as though, I mean, you know, I like I'm it's not a crime scene.

It's not like something, you know, it's not. But it's treated as if it's a crime scene. Like people are more concerned with the crime scene along that sideline in new orleans than they are with a shooting there it it just it seems real uh like it's it it makes me embarrassed to be yeah but you're doing the very like yes the simple answer is yes to all of this like i shouldn't have spent all that but then this ended up becoming my career oh sure and it's you know and it gives me it gives me pleasure. It's part of my life.

I'm not going to stop doing it. I'm not feeling guilty over it. I shouldn't have been depressed when Derek Lowe blew saves. Like, I would be depressed for days. That's fucking stupid. It just seems odd to me that, like, we don't feel humans are qualified to officiate a sporting event. And that if we don't know the, like we, we, it needs to be proven. I just, I don't, it doesn't seem necessary.

And I don't think it improves the game. And I'm always surprised when, you know, when, you know, when you watch a game and they do an instant replay and they realize, you know, they're like the announcers are always like, well, you know, they got it right this time. You know, that's why you do it. And it was like, well, I guess it's true. You got something relatively unimportant correct

at the expense of the experience, which is the only reason this exists at all. Did you try to bum us all out on Super Bowl week, Chuck? I don't know. I just, because no one thinks this anymore. I find that now bringing up,

like, the idea that maybe instant replay is detrimental, no one agrees with it. Like, no, like there's, like, it's like an argument

that's not, doesn't really exist anymore that we've all moved on and somehow agreed that instant replay is, like, a valuable asset to these things. And I don't think that it is. really exist anymore that we've all moved on and somehow agreed that instant replay is like a valuable asset to these things and i don't think that it is i don't i don't think that it is either

but if you took it away everybody'd be like i can't believe this like don't you want to get it right and my point would be i feel like you still only get it right like 50 of the time um thanks a lot for doing this man thanks for having me man i appreciate it it's nice to finally meet you the point i was trying to make bigger dude than I imagined either. You have big arms. Are you known for this? Are you into bodybuilding or something? I wouldn't call it bodybuilding. I would call it...

Body shaping? I would call it the mental break I need every day. So I go in and I don't really... I miss playing sports. What did you play? I need every day. So I go in and I, you know, I don't really, you know, I miss playing sports. I miss. What did you play? Well, I just played everything, like everything, everybody else growing up.

But it's not like I played in college or anything like that. You played high school? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a situation where you're like, you played like football, basketball and baseball the way it used to be where the, you know, you were like shortstop quarterback. I had football for a year, but I wasn't big. And basketball was always my thing.

And then that, like, it's such an afterschool special story where it didn't work out and I transferred high schools and you know, so then I got really into it again after, you know, in my mid twenties, I decided to take out all my failed high school frustrations on everybody else and pick up games for a good 10 year stretch. And then I stopped playing at like 33, which was the dumbest thing ever. And then I tried to like pick it back up at 37 and I'm still slowly digging myself out of that hole. When I was in high school, that was the very end of the belief still that like weight training could be detrimental to basketball. Like, I don't remember if you remember being told that, but I was, I was often told growing up, it's like, you don't want to, you know, you don't want to bench press and do

that too much. It'll screw up your jump shot. You know, that was the end of that. No one thinks that now, obviously. But so I was very hesitant to do any kind of weight training in high school under this belief that it would impact shooting and basketball. This isn't you being insecure about being smaller than me right now, is it? Well, no. But here's what I was going to say. secure about being smaller than me right now, is it? Well, no, but here's what I was going to say.

What I was going to say is that, you know, so now as an adult, sometimes I lift weights and I was very surprised to find something. I used to only think the only benefit to weightlifting would be for sports. There are many situations in life where it's just nice being able to lift things. This blew my mind, like luggage and stuff luggage is huge yeah you have kids particularly where you're like holding one yeah um are you married or are you single no i'm single so you have time to to do all these things i i can't wait to start picking up kids left and right i need to get on that the luggage stuff i have right now but uh yeah i need a couple kids to throw in the mix here start carrying around uh hey thanks again to everybody for checking out this episode of dual threat please leave a review rate and subscribe uh that's

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