The Ryen Russillo Podcast - The Load Management Wars, Plus Joe Thomas, and Last Call at the Black Hole With Kevin Clark | The Ryen Russillo Podcast

Episode Date: December 18, 2019

Russillo hits on LeBron James and Doc Rivers’s recent comments on load management (4:27), before talking with NFL Network’s and 10-time Pro Bowler Joe Thomas about the Browns' disappointing season, generational changes to offensive lineman, identifying NFL-ready college QBs, Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, “Who could you beat up?,” and more (20:40). Finally Ryen is joined by The Ringer’s Kevin Clark to discuss his trip to the Raiders’ final home game in Oakland, as well as their future in Las Vegas (45:23). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, what's up? It's the Ryan Rosillo podcast, and we have a hack show for you today. I am live from a snow squall. I have moved on from my Boston location to a private location now, and I'm not trying to be sketchy, Kyle you know what's up actually I'm in Burlington who cares I'm going to Vermont's basketball game tonight men's team is playing UNC Greensboro and I'm gonna go and sit and watch Anthony Lamb play who may be a pro basketball player that gets drafted out of Vermont which would be unbelievable so boom there you go that's what i'm up to what are you up to how are you doing world traveler good man not peeling park my car out front feeling good man um wow all right get the car out front gotta let him so what's up with this yeah so you're not even parking it in the

ringer lot or the the gower lot you're just parking it so the people so that your name is in the streets yeah i still got one security guard that i like that I haven't been able to show him yet. So I'm going to get that done today. Okay. All right. Well, that sounds good. Well, let's get some of the business stuff out of the way here. State Farm is our presenting sponsor. Today's episode of the Ryan Russillo Show is brought to you by State Farm. If you're fumbling with insurance, State Farm agents are here to help.

Because with over 19,000 agents, they're local to you and available to help. Whether you connect in person, by phone, or through the State Farm mobile app, agents are here to help because with over 19,000 agents that are local to you and available to help, whether you connect in person by phone or through the State Farm mobile app, agents are here to help. So go with the one that has coverage and agents you can count on. State Farm, talk to an agent today. Today's podcast, The Open, is about LeBron versus everybody and things that I think are fair that he's saying and some other things that I think are worth checking a second time. Joe Thomas from the Tomahawk Podcast and the NFL Network is going to talk some football with us.

Some early Cleveland stories. We'll also do the roster. Who could he beat up from his 2007 rookie team, which was always one of my favorite radio segments to do. And then it sort of got played out a little bit. I think once other people started doing it, I was like, now I don't want to do it. I'm very not.

I'm so territorial about some of the stuff that I do when somebody else does it instead of like deciding to go over the top and continue to do my thing. I'll be like, all right, if other people are doing this now, I don't want to do it. But no one's really doing it, so I'm bringing it back. Boom. And Kevin Clark on Last Call at the Black Hole. That would be an

unbelievable tease if I hosted NFL Live or some show like that. I'd be like, up next, Last Call at the Black Hole. He was at the last Oakland game, if you don't understand what the hell I'm talking about. The show was also brought to you

by Drinkworks Home Bar by Keurig, much like a premium espresso machine, but it makes cocktails instead. Drinkworks Home Bar pods are made with premium spirits, real ingredients, and natural flavors. There are over two dozen

different drinks to choose from, so there's literally something for everyone. So funny. I am in uh bartending home right now and one of the guys that i was out to dinner with the other night said you remember what we used to serve and i go yeah i remember he goes everybody's like a craftsman now it's all craft cocktails mixologist he's like we weren't that i'm like yeah no no kidding we weren't that jack Jack and Diet, Jack and Coke on it. But the thing that guys used to bring back was the old Stoli Raz and Ginger.

Some guys did Stoli Raz and Soda. Stoli Rose was never as popular. Nobody wanted their liquor to taste like rose petals. Although there's an argument that there's some flower liqueurs out there, say Germaine, that you can mix in with some other stuff. If you start to know that kind of world, you're at a whole other level. Just do this. Ask your local spot. I didn't even mean to make that connection. Don't go anywhere. Get the Drinkworks by Keurig. All right. And you can

do your own deal. Throw a little St. Germain floater on the top of that. Whatever. People are going to freak out. Girls are going to be at your party being like, this guy understands liqueurs. Unbelievable. No, it's the drink maker that understands it because they're creating bar-quality cocktails freshly made at the pulse of a button. The only way to get this amazing drink maker at a discount plus free shipping, go to drinkworks.com, use my code Ryan. That's R-Y-E-N.

And by the way, when you think you're making fun of me by misspelling my name, it's just so beat and played out. But thank you, Drinkworks. The code again is Ryan. Add checkout to save $100 off standard website price and get free shipping. Don't wait. This amazing offer won't last. And it's only for my listeners. That's drinkworks.com and use my code Ryan RYE and at checkout. Remember, please enjoy responsibly. Drinkworks Home Bar is currently available in California, New York, Florida. Of course, it's in Missouri, Pennsylvania, and Illinois with more states available for presale. So don't feel left out. Check out the pre-sale stuff at drinkworks.com. Today's open is titled The Load Management War, starring LeBron James and Doc Rivers. Now, LeBron has been capped in no rest now this entire year, and I'm not going to call him out for other times he's sat down because LeBron, let's face it, the guy plays games,

but I think there's some things to point out some inconsistencies in his position. Now that it's like load management, what the hell is that? Days off, miss a game. Like who, what's that all about? All right. Cause nobody's 82 games anymore. And Kawhi is not going to be 82 games. So when LeBron says this about load management, if I'm healthy, I play. That's just going to be your approach all year. I mean, that's the, that should be the approach. I mean mean unless we're getting to like you know late in the season we've clinched and we can't get any

better or any worse and you know it could benefit from that but I mean why why wouldn't I play if I'm healthy it doesn't make any sense to me personally Doc Rivers isn't gonna like that because Doc Rivers for those that only know him as a coach a criminally underrated head coach coach of the NBA, but only know him as a coach, you don't realize that Doc Rivers was a tough guy player. He was never the best player. He was never the best player on his team. Probably one of the second best, maybe some of those Hawks teams he was, but he was not a star, but he was gritty. He was tough where he grew up and he was a fighter. I mean, he was a guy that just didn't back down to anybody. So he still has a lot of that. All right. And a lot of these coaches are, are offended by any insinuation whatsoever that, you know, is, is attacking at them. And LeBron, you know, is, is, is indirectly talking about Kawhi in this whole

thing, or maybe just everybody resting in general, because people don't like the resting. So if LeBron does this thing where it's like, well, I wouldn't rest. Then LeBron feels like, Hey, I'm looking like a hero to everybody, which is also a pattern of, of answering questions that LeBron does this thing where it's like, well, I wouldn't rest, then LeBron feels like, hey, I'm looking like a hero to everybody, which is also a pattern of answering questions that LeBron has had here recently. So here's Doc in response. It's our philosophy. I don't know what theirs are. You know, I think theirs is whatever LeBron says it is, to be honest. That makes sense.

That makes a lot of sense to me. But no, I think I like what we're doing. I think it's the smart thing to do. And, you know,, uh, I like what we're doing. I think it's the smart thing to do. And you know, who knows? We'll see at the end. Now let's face it here. Let's also be honest. Let's play the honest game. If LeBron shows up to you and says to your team, Hey, I'd like to play here, but you're going to do a kind of my way. Um, Miami did it. And then Miami didn't want to do it as much anymore. And LeBron got sick of the Wade thing and wanted to go to Cleveland and he knew Cleveland would let him do whatever he was going to do. And there was also a rumbling that maybe he'd stays in Cleveland

one more year because he knows he can do whatever he wants in Cleveland. But then he shows up to LA and I don't think it has anything to do with magic. It's just that LeBron wanted to be in LA. And so boom, he's in LA and they're going to let him call a shot. So no one's necessarily like wrong here, but I don't know that anybody's really right. And it's basically personal pride. These two guys going back at it, but back to my thought here on LeBron's deal, where he does this thing where it's kind of like you ask me the question and I'm going to answer it, but I'm going to answer it in a way where you feel like an idiot for the way you asked it. And then I may answer it with something that's entirely different, but it was also sort of praising me or my observation. It's really

weird. And he does it a lot. And before I play some of the cuts, I always want to be fair about this stuff, because if you are LeBron, right, if you are one of the most recognizable people on the planet, one of the most gifted basketball players we've ever seen in a century of this game, okay, you are going to be conditioned to think every time somebody's talking about your profession that they don't know what they're talking about. Because let's face it, the majority of the questions or observations that have been thrown to think every time somebody's talking about your profession that they don't know what they're talking about. Because let's face it, the majority of the questions or observations that have been thrown LeBron's way, he's probably 99% of the time smarter than the person

that's asking that question about what happened with basketball. It's always my Mel Kiper produce section theory. And that Mel Kiper, for his entire life, has had thousands of people with NFL draft opinions. And again, it's always the thing where the person asking the question, isn't really asking the question to hear your answer. What they're doing is they're asking a question in a way that allows you to hear their knowledge on something. It happened to me just this past week. Somebody was asking me about something in the Celtics game. I said, well, you know what? When I got to know Chauncey Billups pretty well,

and it wasn't a name drops, like I thought I was actually giving this person a ton of information, a little nugget. Chauncey billups used to say this about this and this play and then i realized i'm like oh wait what am i doing here like i'm just going to stop because the guy's not listening to me and all he's doing is trying to tell me his version of events because he wants to be able to tell me that he told me that i was wrong about something and it happens all the time it happens to mel kuyper jr all the time can you imagine how many times it happens lebron where the first few words of the sentence he already knows like like, this is a waste of my time. I'm not going to listen because he's conditioned to it.

So I am understanding and aware of that. But LeBron, again, has had this pattern where he does this thing where it's like even if you're asking an innocuous question or something simple or maybe something that's a very well-crafted question, he'll answer it in a different way where it's like, no, I'm actually the one that's like, you know, I think that's just kind of what these guys do. I think it's kind of what they do, and LeBron's been doing it for a while. So he did it with load management. He did it about Dwight Howard, right? Where Dwight has been incredible for them, but he hadn't played in a year,

and he made it out to be like some weird thing that Dwight is producing now when a reporter asked him about this this week. No, I've seen Dwight be special before when he averaged 35, 17, five blocks in Eastern Conference Finals versus my Cavs. So him going 10 for 10 is nothing. What I've seen before,

knocking me out of a chance to play Kobe in the finals. Again, Dwight hadn't played in a year. So just because Dwight was awesome in the playoffs a decade ago, like you knew he was going to be good now, he hadn't played a year. All now? He hadn't played a year. He hadn't played a year. He's been terrific for him, but I also think AD playing with Dwight,

that helps Dwight on some of the stuff. And honestly, a lot of the Dwight stuff offensively is just as easy as can be because LeBron makes it easy that way. He also had this thing, LeBron, in 2011 where he was asked about shrinking in the fourth quarter by a reporter, and he came back, and he was like, well, I'm the best player in the world.

And LeBron was at that time the best player in the world. But it still was like a weird way to answer the question because LeBron at that point, losing to that Mavs team in those finals, a Mavs team that I think is actually probably the least talented of any teams that have won an NBA championship in the last 20 years. It was a weird loss. It was a weird loss despite the fact the Mavs were overloading to him on his side, which he mentioned in one of his breakdowns, which was really smart and something most

of us weren't picking up on. But it was this kind of, I'm going to say that I'm the best player in the world, no matter what question is asked of me. And he also did it again in the 2015 finals, where that team was really hurt. They were playing against the Warriors, and LeBron was asked about being outmanned. Do you feel a lot less pressure this finals run just because you are undermanned and you had some injuries as opposed to previous years? No.

I feel confident because I'm the best player in the world. That's simple. So you hear that. Again, in 2015, that's when we started flirting with the idea that maybe LeBron wasn't the best anymore, but LeBron was very protective of that. He was very anti-Stef. He had some serious Steff resentment. We can talk about the Halloween party and say, oh, no, that was what the caterers do. Like he had real issues with Steph and the Warriors, but he is doing this thing. And there are many more examples of you asked LeBron the question. He may not answer it directly. And it's both him telling you kind of why you're wrong and why he's awesome, which again, he is awesome.

And when it comes back to the load management thing, as we bring this back full circle, this is not somebody who's missed a lot of games, but he has missed games. If we look at his run, you know, last year he was hurt. So I'm not knocking him for that, but he'd missed, I think 17 games. He comes back for one. And then he sat that nationally televised golden state game just because he didn't want to play against the warriors. And then he played like the rest of the season until he didn't, because it was just no point in it and they were going to shut him down. So he's missed some games at times. And before he left Cleveland, he played 82 games in his last season there because he was sick of hearing about all the games he was missing when he really wasn't missing that many. I mean, he was 74, 76 and 69 the previous three years in Cleveland, but he played 82 in that last year in Cleveland because he was kind of annoyed that he wasn't being mentioned in

the MVP conversation because he was missing games. Like he was actually getting knocked for a little bit. When we look at those totals at 74, 76, not the 69, but the 74 and 76, we think like, wait a minute, that's almost like an entirely full season, especially for somebody who's leading his team to eight straight NBA finals. Again, this isn't so much that LeBron doesn't play because that's not an accurate argument it's that he is now presenting himself as this anti-load management guy when he in the first season he was with Cleveland he played in 69 games he shut it down for eight games after December 28th until January 13th and we can sit there and LeBron stands are going to say or Heat fans are going to say or you know at that point he'd left you so what do you care but they're just going to say oh he

was hurt he's back and all this stuff. It's like, yeah, but he went down there. He like worked out and then he came back and played the rest of the time. So was that not load management? We're talking about him now six years ago.

So his 82 game season with Cleveland, I think was very motivated by the fact that he wanted to win an MVP, an award that he hasn't won since 2013 after winning four MVPs

out of five season. He hasn't won that award since. So whenever I think of asking the person that is great at what they do about what's going on, there always seems to be this built up initial reaction of, well, I'm going to tell you why you're wrong because you are a God wherever you are. LeBron is a God in multiple cities. When I think of Nick Saban and the way he can be so contentious with the media in Alabama, but when he wants to take that stuff and travel somewhere else, it's not going to work as much. When Urban is sitting there telling people in Columbus, don't even mess with me,

but then he's criticized outside of it. He's like, wait a minute, what the hell is this? I'm a God back home. It's happened. I remember Roy Williams, who I like a lot at UNC. He was on an interview in SportsCenter. It was like a year plus after the academic stuff at UNC. Some could argue that it wasn't resolved. Some could say it's still a story. Nationally, it's a story. Locally, maybe you were over it

and you didn't want to talk about it anymore. But Roy was upset. Like, what are you guys doing? Like, why are you asking me about this on SportsCenter? This is a done issue. Well, yes, in your own backyard

where people are afraid to mess with you, this is a done issue. LeBron is covered differently by the Lakers and ESPN reporters that are assigned to the lakers that are there every single day then he would be say if he did a sit down where he wasn't as protected i mean that's just that's just the reality of it so to sit here and watch him have these answers about stuff where you're

like wait a minute what like i was supposed to know dwight was going to be good this year because in 2009 his magic eliminated you from the playoffs. Like, what the hell does that mean? And I'm not, again, I want to make this clear. I'm not saying LeBron is necessarily a hypocrite for criticizing load management right now because he isn't. Again, eight straight seasons there where he gets to the finals, but he's had times where he's decided to not play games. So I don't know if that's any different. Now, this isn't like Wade with the Heat where Wade played 76, 49, 69, and 54 games in his ages 29 through 32 seasons, those four years that he was a teammate with LeBron down there. But the Kawhi thing, even though I think it's annoying, especially when it's a nationally televised games, again, me as somebody that has no connection whatsoever to any of the national broadcasts anymore, I just think it's bad for business. I think there's eventually a turning point where you have all your players who decide, I don't care. Screw it. I don't care what we're doing to our partners. That's bad for business.

And the NBA knows it and the business partners know it. And I wonder how much that goes into the new negotiations of these TV contracts. There's still years away from expiring, but I do know this, the Clippers are sensitive to the Kawhi thing, whether LeBron says it or I say it because they feel like there's a long-term injury. And much like Doc says, hey, you guys are going to do whatever LeBron wants. That's what LA's approach is, meaning the Lakers. The Clippers approach is very similar, and they were going to do whatever Kawhi wants to do. And the same thing for Paul George, because they wanted those guys as free agents, and every team would do the exact same thing to go ahead and grab those guys. But it really does get back to that whole theory that I'm not

critical of LeBron for the answers. I think it's how you become conditioned. It's happened with all these different head coaches. It's happened to me for years. I mean, I remember talking to Bob Stoops. I went down to Norman, Oklahoma, 2008. They're playing Texas Tech. It was right after Texas Tech had beaten number one Texas. And I was hanging out with some of the staff guys on the night before I was going to do the interview with Stoops. I got in town a couple days early, and they were like, hey, get a load of this idiot from ESPN. He's going to interview Stoops tomorrow. He's got like a one-on-one with him for 10 minutes for his radio show, and let's go over your questions.

I was like, all right, well, the first one I was going to ask him is why has your defense slipped when you're calling Carter's defense? And they all start laughing hysterically, pounding their beers on the table, going, this idiot just flew in here. Like I'm some big city slicker, by the way, like Clarkark gable because i want to ask a couple oklahoma sooners questions by the way outdated reference but um they're like what's your next question i was like well i was going to ask about the depth of the top of the big 12 versus the top of the sec and that the sec has been the better conference they're like oh jesus they're like what are you going to death wish so i roll into bob soup's office the next day and i start right in and be like hey this has always been a defensive team but now we're just seeing like

your numbers against certain you know offenses you guys you aren't even close to where you were bob stoops is like what you fail to realize is that the yards per play versus total yards and you don't understand and i was like oh here we go and i'll just admit this too i didn't like bob stoops in the beginning and who cares because i'm me and he's bob stoops i ended up loving we up loving, we all did a one 80 on Bob Stoops. Like we all were like, you know what? I kind of like that guy. He's, he's a sassy old one. Right. And then I asked about the SEC thing. He's like, well, you know, look, that was him. That was him being prideful. The same way Doc Rivers is being prideful. The same way LeBron is being prideful about his teammates. Hell, I'll give you two bad examples. I remember talking to Scott Drew, the head coach of the Baylor basketball team.

He was in studio and I'm like, man, when I watch you and you're on offense and you have a bunch of six, nine guys that can all dribble and not shoot, like it seems like it's tough for you to score. And he gave me the biggest FU face, but he wasn't going to do it because he's religious because he reminds you of that all the time. He just looks at me and goes, well, that's really interesting

because we were like second in the country in offensive efficiency. I think I went back and looked up the numbers they were higher than i thought but i don't think they were number two and he was letting me have it and he was letting me have it in a way it was like oh here you are outside guy thinking you know what you're talking about and i'm going to set you straight and i was like okay i guess i got that one wrong but again i wanted to be like yeah again i think in the tournament when you guys need a bucket in the half court you're not going to get it whatever um i remember greg shiano stopping by espn working there for a while you'd ask him a question he'd look at you and you'd be like hey greg you're on like nfl live at 2 30 eastern for 30 minutes today

like relax you know you know like what is this like loosen up you know there's there's no more secrets here i mean hell i've done it to people like i've mentioned i mean i've had people do it to me at espn that i worked with former former coaches. There's two in particular, two of the guys that have spent more time talking shit about me, where I always think the funny thing is when you're going to talk behind somebody's back, make sure that people, your audience like you more than the subject matter, because then people would always come back and talk to me about it because they were like, oh, that Russillo guy thinks he's a GM. He wants to be this.

He wants to be that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He doesn't know the sport. I've always admitted I don't know the sport. I know that LeBron knows more about the sport. I know that Greg Sciano. I know that LeBron knows more about the sport. I know that Greg Sciano. I know that Urban Meyer. I know that Bob Stoops. I know that even Scott Drew know more about their sports than I do. But it doesn't

mean every question is terrible. And that's what happens with some of these guys at the top. Okay, before we get to Joe Thomas, I want to remind you, as the weather gets chillier, a lot of us start craving cozy nights in. Make the most of your homebody time with a new burrow couch. That's right, the holidays are coming

up, and chances are you'll be having guests over. Instead of showing them that beat-up old hand-me-down couch, show off a brand new burrow couch. This Black Friday and Cyber Monday, you may have upgraded your space with a new TV or gaming system. Shouldn't you upgrade your furniture too? Upgrade to a new burrow couch and maybe a new burrow rug. Burrow sofas are customizable.

Pick your fabric color, leg finish, armor style, and length. Even add a chaise lounge or ottoman or both. Burrow's durable fabric is naturally scratch and stain resistant, and each sofa comes with built-in USB chargers. They're easy to move and easy to set up. I can't express that enough. You're going to figure out your room. You're going to figure out all the pieces. They're easy to move and easy to set up. I can't express that enough. You're going to figure out your room. You're going to figure out all the pieces. You're going to put them together. And if you ever need to move and take them apart, couldn't be easier. Huge advantage of the Burrow line of furniture.

You can do it yourself in just minutes and add or remove seats as needed. And Burrow offers more than just sofas. Their Genius Sleep Kit transforms your comfy sofa into an even comfier bed. And they just launched a collection of functional affordable rugs and coffee tables get $75 off a new sofa and free one-week shipping at burrow.com slash russillo r-u-s-s-i-l-l-o that's burrow b-u-r-r-o-w dot com slash russillo for $75 off a new burrow sofa okay he is a future hall of famer. And I always find his career fascinating in that he was always the quiet man as the left tackle, one of the best left tackles we've ever seen with the Cleveland Browns. And now the co-host of the Tomahawk podcast and NFL network

coverage. He's got some games coming up as well. Joe Thomas joins us. Joe, I I've always thought that that was really interesting that everybody kind of thought of you as like this guy that never talked at least nationally outside of Cleveland. And then once your career was winding down, and now you're doing all this stuff and you're so good at it, did you just save up everything or did we just not know you that well, at least nationally? I don't know. I think part of it was when I was a younger player, less was always more, and I was focused on not being a distraction, not saying anything. Cause I was in the Patriots, uh, coordinator coaches.

So I had Romeo Cornell who came from the Patriots and then I had Eric Mangini who came from the Patriots. And so they of course didn't want you to say anything. And so that's kind of where I cut my teeth in the NFL. And it wasn't until later on in my career where I felt that, uh, it was okay to kind of let my personality out a little bit and, you know, have some fun with it. And, you know, I think kind of how I stumbled on the media side of things. Yeah, look, you've been terrific at it. But I also think that's kind of funny because when you think back to those early years and, you know, it goes quick, it goes really quick.

And then I've always think it's different for athletes when it's like, all right, now I'm in my thirties. Now, what am I supposed to do? Like how, how different is it when you look back at the start of your career and think like, I've had all these different coaches. We had all this change over. I knew I was pretty good, but you just, you probably didn't think that long for that long that your team wouldn't have any kind of success. I think as a player, you always have to get your mindset to start a season that we can win the Super Bowl because that's how you get the most out of yourself. If you feel like you have that hope, there's that opportunity to maybe think that this is the team that's really going to do it. a little bit. You trick yourself a little bit at the beginning of the season and you talk yourself into, yeah, we got the quarterback, we got this receiver, he's good enough. And this guy matches up well against these people. And so it's not until the season's over where you look back in hindsight and say, yeah, we weren't very good. We didn't really have all the pieces we needed,

but you know what, next year it's going to be different. And you know, it's not until your career's over that you look back and you say, wow, we didn't have as many good teams as I thought we did going into the season. And wouldn't it have been great to have at least one team that made a run and had our chance in the playoffs? And we were playing for something meaningful in December and January. I'm glad you brought up Mangini because I don't think there's ever been a guy that I've done a 180 on quicker versus like, I didn't know him when I was in Boston and he was with the Wingland.

I just knew of him. And then he got the Jets gig gig and i was like was he doing this belichick impersonation like what's he doing and i really didn't like it because i was like this is really unoriginal and then i got to know him him hanging out in you know connecticut and then him working at espn a little bit i was like oh my gosh i really like this guy and he's completely different guy when you get to know him versus the guy he tried to portray as a head coach. Did you enjoy Mangini? Did you like him? Or was it tough for you to process a guy that felt like he was doing a Belichick impersonation? Well, it's funny you said that because I had the exact same opinion of Eric and the same 180 as you did. And when he was my coach, I despised him. I hated football. I hated every step that I took in that building. I didn't want to look him in the eye. I mean, because like you mentioned,

he was, it seemed, and I think he's kind of talked about it a little bit since he's gone on into the media world, but it seemed like he felt like he had to take on the Belichick impersonation. And so everybody in the building was miserable. You had to do all these silly mind games and you had to put up with all of that stuff that he saw and he learned from new england rather than just kind of being himself and i think that was maybe one of the things that if you talk to him

he'll say if he gets another opportunity to be a head coach in the nfl whether he wants to or not but if he gets that opportunity he won't be afraid to be himself because he's extremely likable. He's funny. He's witty. He's very, very smart. He knows the game of football as well as anybody I've ever been around. But I think what held him back a little bit is he felt like there's an internal pressure to be Bill Belichick. And as a head coach, whenever you try to be somebody that you're not, it just doesn't work out. But now that he's gone on and done other things, I actually have in, in hindsight, a lot of appreciation for the things that I learned from him, especially now that I've gone on into the media things.

He taught me a lot about the game of football outside of just being an offensive lineman. And we're actually good friends to this day. I really, really like him now. But at the time when he was my coach in Cleveland, I really, really did not like him very much. Did you ever have to, and I promise we'll move on. Cause I didn't want to do a Browns retrospective here,

but I, I just think it's funny talking about the guy that, that we had the same experience, but do you remember a time specifically, you probably as a leader of that team where guys are coming up to you being like, I can't stand this guy. I don't want to do this anymore.

Oh, all the time. I mean, when, when he got hired, we brought in a ton of guys from the jet and I'll never forget. Those guys said that the day that he got fired from the jet, they had a party because they couldn't stand him either. And when they lost in the playoffs, I think they, they made the playoffs maybe his first year in New York. I can't remember exactly, but they lost in the playoffs and they were happy because he made their life so miserable. And every day going in that building and the practices were so

brutal that they couldn't wait to be done with football. And I think there's a fine line you got to walk between being disciplined and tough and working your guys hard and just making it a miserable environment that people hate coming to work. And so I think being in that building with him, plenty of guys that were young players

talked openly about like, if this is what football is, I'm not cool with this NFL thing. I'm ready to retire. And I think we had guys that were seriously considering walking away from the game at a very young age. I don't have permission to use their names, but really well-known guys that were high

draft picks that were like, this ain't for me if this is what the NFL is all about. Wow. That's great. That's right. Yeah. 2006, that first year when he was the man genius, they went 10-6 and lost the Pats. All right, so let's do this now because I didn't pick the Browns to go to the playoffs,

but that wasn't anything more than just, all right, I got to figure out six different teams here. We knew that they were talented. And when you retired, you were like, now I'm going to just be the number one Browns fan. I don't know if you still are the number one Browns fan, but what do you make of what this team is? Because a lot of us from the outside are like, now I'm going to just be the number one Browns fan. I don't know if you still are the number one Browns fan, but what do you make of what this team is? Because a lot of us from the outside are like,

all right, the coach is a mess. There's too many voices. I think there's some football things about the O-line. But just try to give me your whole take. And I know Odell today said, hey, I'm good. I'm here for the long haul. But this is just a weird group of personalities, and it's been a big disappointment.

Well, you're right. It has been a big disappointment. It's a little difficult to put your finger on exactly what it is, but if I had to say this is the one thing that caused the team to struggle this year, it's just the inexperience across the board. Inexperienced head coach, first-time head coach with Freddie Kitchens, first time where he was the play caller the entire year, where he was an offensive coordinator.

You got a young quarterback who had a great finish to his rookie season, but still not a lot of experience. And I've seen it many times where a quarterback comes in because I played with a lot of young quarterbacks for their first times in the NFL. And they'll have like three, four, five good games. But when defensive coordinators get enough game film on them, now they're putting together specific game plans that attack your weaknesses

and then you have to adjust. And so you go through this little lull period before you can kind of become a better quarterback. And, and it's, it's sort of like a stair step approach to progressing as a quarterback. It's not a smooth line. It's, it's a stair step. And so I think Baker played well last year, but they got some film on him and he just hasn't been able to adjust yet. And I think part of that is inexperienced new players on offense, inexperienced head coach who's learning on the job as well.

And then just the whole team, it seems like they weren't very good at handling adversity, whether it been outside the locker room or within a game where something bad happens in a game and it just snowballs. And there hasn't been anybody on the team this year that's been able to just pull the team together and get through that adversity and come out better on the other side. And so clearly as they finish the season, they're going to be trying to look at those things and say, all right, inexperience, that's not something that you have made the uphill that you can swallow and take for it. But what are the things that we can do or maybe around it to kind of boost up our guys that we

have here that are a little bit inexperienced. And that might be maybe going out and getting some guys that are a little bit more veteran in the league, maybe not as talented, but guys that have that experience, that have been around a lot longer, that can kind of help some of these young guys with talent on this roster. I watch a lot of college. It's seriously one of my favorite things to do in all the years getting to travel. And something I'd always hear, and this isn't new, but the lack of offensive line talent that comes into the league.

How different do you think it is now from when you first entered the league out of Wisconsin? Well, it's a lot different and there's a lot of factors that go into it. It's everybody's favorite conversation because it's clear to everybody's eyeballs that the play of NFL offensive lines have really dropped off. To me, it's kind of a lot of factors that go into it. One is the fact that most colleges now are not running any pro-style techniques or schemes that you're going to see at the next level. And so most of these colleges are run left, run right, or just drop back and throw a quick

pass. And they're not teaching them the techniques that they're going to carry over to the NFL. When I was at Wisconsin, we were running the same techniques and schemes for the most part that I was running my rookie year in the NFL. And then I would use throughout my career. And as an offensive lineman, you're using, you're doing something from a technique standpoint that is very unique and

unnatural. You're moving backwards in a gorilla stance and you're trying to hit people with your hand. That's not natural like a receiver you've been running since you were three years old like that's easy you're running if you're a defensive lineman you're running forward and you're tackling people you've been doing that since you were a kid when you're a quarterback you've been throwing things your whole life so these are natural things that you've done your whole life but learning to be an

offensive lineman takes years and years of practice and so when you come to the NFL as a rookie, you may be talented, but you're learning stuff for the very first time. And so that learning curve is deep. Then you've got to mention, of course, the fact that there's less practice time, right? You're not hitting as much. And part of especially run blocking is you have to learn it with pads on. That's the best way to learn it. And so I think that's part of it as well. But also I think one part that is often overlooked when you talk to this conversation of what's happened to offensive line play in the NFL

is defenses have become much more exotic. Gone are the days where everybody just plays a 4-3 and everybody's gap sound, and you know as an offensive lineman, all right, my defensive end is lining up outside of me he's going to rush up field and he's definitely afraid of giving up his cap defenses are much more into risk taking nowadays because they understand that an interception or a strip sack or a sack it stops a drive it's something that can change the game on a dime and with

offenses in the n NFL being so prolific and scoring so much, it's not as much about bend, but don't break defenses because that doesn't win in the NFL winning defense. Now are guys that can get turnovers and make huge plays because it is such a scoring mentality in the league. But also I think the other thing is defensive linemen have just gotten much, much better. There's a lot of guys that train in the offseason with karate guys. They're just pass rushers, and pass rushers have become so much more of an art. It's so much more refined that overall, the talent on defense and the skill sets have just far surpassed what you're seeing from an offensive lineman standpoint. Wow, that was a very in-depth answer. I appreciate that.

There's a lot going on there. Your nap is over. Time to get back to podcasting. Look at me. It's so much easier. It was just like, Hey, there's no offensive lineman anymore. And you gave us a better, better example of it. All right. So I have a couple more things I want to hit on here because I've also admitted sort of a theme on this podcast, whether it's me talking with McShay and the draft stuff or other guys or Chris every Monday like

I've had a harder time trying to identify guys on Saturday that I can play on Sunday a quarterback because everybody's numbers are sick completion rate doesn't really mean anything anymore because it depends on kind of what the throws are that are out there and then on any given Sunday like somebody could put up some crazy numbers now especially with younger quarterbacks in the beginning so what do you look for in trying to find a guy that can carry a team as opposed to a guy that's just putting up numbers in their system, isn't necessarily somebody that you can trust? What defining things do you look for at the quarterback position to try to sift through all these absurd numbers? Well, that's a great question. And that's the problem that NFL evaluators have had for decades. But to me, there's a lot about the person, the professionalism,

the approach that they take to the game, how they deal with their teammates. Because in the end, the quarterback is the head coach, the CEO on the field. And really, he's the CEO for all the players. Because as a head coach, your liaison between yourself and your team goes through the captains, yeah, but really it goes through the quarterback. The best teams in the NFL have a quarterback who's a great leader. And so those leadership, those intangibles, the professional approach that they take,

that's the qualities that I really am going to say. If I'm picking a quarterback, there is no excuse. There is no exceptions to that rule. If they're not great leaders if people are not drawn to them and if they don't have a professional approach i don't care what type of numbers they are i'm not taking them in the draft yeah no that's um that's just it's just so hard it's so much harder now but i also think the rules are different because you know guys like baker and kyler would not have gone you know they would have been third round picks fourth round

picks maybe 10 years ago. And now I'm like, okay, I guess Baker's going to be pretty good. And then I don't know what to do. And now I'm like, wait a minute, is Kyler actually better than him? So, you know, we won't know. We won't really know the answer here

for a couple of years on them. Before we close it out with Joe Thomas and who you could beat up game, when it comes to meat, quality matters, but there's more to it than texture and taste. The bacon is incredible. The steak tips are seriously the best I've had since I moved out west. And that was something that was one of the reasons I almost

stayed in the East Coast was strictly for the steak tips. Shout out to a different place. And I'm not going to shout out in an ad that ButcherBox paid for. So there you go. So ButcherBox is bringing it. And the bacon is incredible. The chicken breast, the whole deal. I am loaded up. Every month, ButcherBox ships a curated selection of high quality meat right to my house. All the meat is free of antibiotics and added hormones, packed fresh, ship frozen and vacuum sealed. So it stays that way. And with options like 100% grass fed and finished beef, free range, organic chicken, heritage

pork, wild caught Alaskan salmon and sugar and nitrate free bacon available for just six dollars a meal butcher box is the most affordable and convenient way to get healthy humanely raised meat they even have free shipping within the continental u.s right now you can get two pounds of ground beef two packs of bacon absolutely free plus twenty dollars off your first box just go to butcherbox.com slash dual d-u-a-l or use the promo code dual at checkout that's butcherbox-A-L, or use the promo code dual at checkout. That's ButcherBox.com forward slash dual, or use the promo code dual at checkout. Let me close with two guys that have been playing that have been great.

When you watch Rodgers, there's numbers that say he's average. There's other numbers that say that he isn't. I still would think that I trust him more than... What do you see with him compared to his peak? Well, when I watch Aaron Rodgers, I'm still seeing the same greatness that I was seeing for the last

12 years or so that he's been the starter, but he's just not being asked to do as much, and I think that's a compliment to Matt LaFleur and the team that they've put together in Green Bay, because now they actually have a defense that can stand up and make some plays. They've got a running game that can run

the football, and so I think Aaron Rodgers understands that he doesn't just have to put the whole team on his back all the time like he used to. It's not that Aaron Rodgers show it. Yeah, if we need Aaron Rodgers, he's going to be there and he's going to be as good as always, but he doesn't always have to be Superman. And I think that makes them a more balanced team and that makes them a better team and a team that's more ready and more suited for a good run in the playoffs and i wouldn't be surprised to see the green bay packers in the super bowl as the nfc representative just because of the balance and when you're a balanced team when you're a team that can run the football you can play defense and oh yeah by the way we've got naren rogers who

we need a two-minute drive he's one of the best in the business of all time at doing it. That's a team that matches up well against any opponent versus, hey, all we've got is Aaron Rodgers. If they come together and they've got a good secondary, we're pretty much screwed because if Aaron Rodgers can't score 35 points with his arm, we can't win anymore. And so I think this is probably one of the better Green Bay teams we've seen in a long time.

Okay, so you're, you're not in, um, in that group. That's like things we're seeing a significant decline in Aaron Rogers last couple of years. That, that seemed pretty clear from your answer.

Um, Oh, absolutely. You know, I'm seeing the same Aaron Rogers. I've always seen, you know, this media thing works way better.

If you just say he's washed, I w yeah, I would start the other. I know that you're, uh, Aaron Rogers, he's a scrub. You might as well get rid of him now and go with the backup, who I don't even know who that is. Okay. What about Brady then? So the common theme with Brady is, oh, he's declined significantly. He's too old now. Or

yeah, he just doesn't have any weapons anymore. No, I think when you watch Brady there's been a gradual decline the last couple of years because of age, it's just natural, but he still got the arm strength. He just doesn't have the accuracy as much as he has in years past, but we're seeing a big drop off in their offensive production primarily because the loss of Gronk, you know, for years and years, Gronk was that huge weapon in the middle of the field where you could open up defenses, open up secondaries. And that allowed all the underneath things that Brady and Edelman

were always so good at. They would kill you. They would just methodically move the ball down the field with the underneath stuff. And as soon as they saw a good matchup with Gronk and somebody, they would hit you with a big play. And so that balance in the defensive secondary was so good for him. And it really allowed him to open up a lot of stuff in the running game because nobody wanted to get beat by Gronk, but they were willing to give you running plays and they were willing to give you the underneath stuff to Edelman.

And so that balance that they had on offense was really good. Well, since then they've lost the tackle, and they've had an injury problem on the offensive line. So now they can't block as well. So Brady doesn't have as much time. Brady lost Gronk. So now his only weapon on offense is Edelman,

and they can't run the football. And so now defenses are saying, well, we don't have to worry about the ball going down the field. So now we can kind of focus our underneath coverage a little bit more on Edelman. And it's causing what a slight decline in accuracy from Brady to become something that's much more noticed because he's being forced to throw the

ball in such tight windows. And he's not able to do it as consistently as he used to be able to that we're saying, Oh, there was this huge clip all of a sudden this year when really it was more of a gradual decline. And it was more a story of bad offensive line play and a loss of the rock. Before I let you go, it's a game that we used to do on the radio where I go back and look at a year.

And I'm going to go back to a young babe in the woods, 2007, Joe Thomas, 23 years old. And who could you beat up on your team? So I've got five names here from that roster and you're going to tell me whether or not you would beat them in a fight. All right. Are you ready? All right. Okay. We've got some characters on this team too. I forgot. So there may be one guy whose name I'm gonna leave out of this. Let's go with Charlie Fry.

Yeah, that would not be an issue. Quarterbacks, even, Charlie was kind of a tough guy quarterback, but even tough guy quarterback, no match for a big offensive lineman. We start, we build up, we build up to this. How about Cameron? Yeah, I know. Well, look, I mean, you know, I don't want you being too fake humble on me

here where you're like, I don't know. Let's go with Cameron Wimbley out of Florida state. A lot of length, decent size, six, four to 60. Yeah.

I think Cam's got me. Uh, I went to get them every day in practice for a couple of years and he was a tough guy. And you know, most of his stack came around the edge where he had this really good dip and rip around the corner. But he actually was a really,

really good bull rusher. He had a pretty, what we used to call a concrete head, where he'd bull rush you and he'd headbutt you. And so I think with that concrete head, he would be tough to knock out. And definitely a guy from Florida State, tougher than a Wisconsin guy. All right. I hope you're not being too nice about this. All right.

Let's go with the old bull. Old man Willie McGinnis. He was 36 with you at that point. I see him at the gym now. I can't believe he's like close to 50. He looks incredible. But I don't know, 36, the young buck, 23-year-old Joe Thomas. What do you got? Yeah, that was easy.

Willie used to do a lot of boxing training in the offseason. He was a well-known fighter, uh, in the locker room. And I think he dusted off one of our offensive linemen one time over a pair of shower shoes. And, uh, after I heard that story, I wasn't messing with Willie. He was, he was a tough guy then. And he's still a tough guy. Now it's pretty amazing to watch him work out being that we both work at the NFL network and he's still jacked up. I still wouldn't mess with him. Okay. All right. That one's fair. Let's, uh, let's try this one.

Braylon Edwards, 24 out of Michigan. He's a big receiver. Uh, is that an insult? Yeah, he was, he was a big receiver and maybe in the receiver room he can hold his own, but, uh, I think he would have been a layup for me. That was, that would have been an easy one. I was always a little scared off of his pre-draft thing when he said he wanted to be a model. I was like, huh.

I'm not sure there. Okay, last one. I'm not going to say Kellen Winslow. I will leave him out of this. Jamal Lewis. I think Jamal's got me, too, because he was like a little mighty mouth. He was, I don't know, six foot one or six foot tall, but he was like two 45 and I'll never forget in the weight room one day,

all of a sudden I saw him in there and he was a guy that no matter what group was lifting, he was never in there. And I asked him, I'm like, Hey Jamal, what's going on? Why don't you lift weights? He's like, Hey bro, I don't lift weights because I don't want to get too huge. And I'm like, Okay, that's all I need to know. So I'm pretty sure that he would kick my butt. And I would never try Jamal Lewis. He was a tough guy and a mighty mouse that didn't lift because he didn't want to get too big.

That's what a terrible set of genetics to have that if you lifted, you would get too big. What a terrible set of genetics to have that if you lifted, you would get too big. Again, you can check out Joe Thomas and Andrew Hawkins, his podcast, Tomahawk. And he's going to be doing some NFL stuff this weekend with the Houston Texans and Tampa Bay Bucs matchup on NFL Network with Rich Eisen and Nate Burleson and everybody. So, yeah, man, hopefully we can do this again. I really appreciate you doing it and have a great holiday. All right. Cool.

Appreciate it. Thanks, Ryan. Give it up for Joe Thomas. Kevin Clark joins us in just a moment, but a serious note here, man. Here we go. You know, the risks of driving drunk. There could be a crash. People get hurt or killed. You get arrested, incur huge legal expenses and possibly even lose your job.

According to the NHTSA's fatality analysis reporting system, 839 people lost their lives in traffic crashes involving a drunk driver during the month of December 2018. During the Christmas and New Year's holidays in 2018 alone, there were more drunk driving-related fatalities than during any other holiday period that year. It is illegal to drive with a BAC at or above.08 in 49 states and the District of Columbia. No exceptions. In Utah, the limit is.05 BAC. On average, a DUI could set you back about $10,000 in attorney fees, fines, court costs, lost time at work, higher insurance rates, car towing, and more. Always remember to plan ahead if you'll be celebrating. Arrange for a sober driver or use public transportation or a ride service to get home safely. You know the consequences of driving drunk, and you're wrong if you think it's no big deal.

Drive sober or get pulled over. All right, let's talk with Kevin Clark, host of The Ringer NFL show and NFL writer. He was out in Oakland because you went out there, like you don't go every weekend. You don't travel every weekend, but you wanted to be there for the black hole, closing it down. And you had this quote, which was incredible.

At the very end, once fans started running onto the field, quote, one fan, as he walked past me, told the officer escorting him off the field that he just wanted to hop the railing once. The officer laughed and said he understood. Let me repeat was all strange how strange was it because the video and you were on the field afterwards looked pretty weird yeah so oakland's one of the weirdest stadiums left in the nfl it's a very it's a bad stadium like there are staircases that lead to nowhere there's a dugout like you know this type of stadium it's a stadium we all went to in the

90s there aren't a lot of those left in the NFL right now, but they still exist. And one of the weird quirks about it is they still let the media on the field after the game. And again, that'll go away when they move to Las Vegas. And so I was able to sort of just meander over to the black hole as the clock was ticking down. And while that was happening, the Jaguars were completing this comeback. And it was a horrible game. The play calling was terrible. It wasn't all Derek Carr's fault, but the Jaguars beat the Raiders in a game that they completely dominated for three quarters. And all of a sudden you lose to Gardner Minshew, everybody gets upset. So it was very strange in the sense that I think Raiders fans came to celebrate and instead they just got really angry

and really angry, not just because their team was a disappointment, but because their team is leaving. And this is the last game and the NFL is losing something. And they're probably angry at city officials, Mark Davis. And then they took it out on Derek Carr, who walked over there to salute the black hole. And instead, he was just viciously booed. So it was one of the stranger NFL games ever been to only because of the last two minutes, plus maybe the last 30 minutes after it, I would say the, the arrest thing is funny to me because the black hole essentially waited until the players were gone. Like they booed and whatever. And, and Derek came over and he hugged some people or whatever.

But then once the players were gone, that's actually when they just started to jump the rail. So it was almost like they were doing it as an activity just to pass the time gosh there's so many follow-ups here uh let's just start with the people running out of the field were they arresting everybody were people mad was it was it dangerous or is it just i don't know the video that i saw it didn't seem bad it just was you know look you can't do it no so there was one bad incident where security and players were literally actually fighting. But I don't think that that was kind of isolated. That was one thing. And that guy, I believe, I don't want to impugn anybody, but I think I put a photo up of one guy who was actually fighting.

And I have a video of that as well. But I put a bunch of photos up. But mostly it was happy people who were jumping on and then they would get tackled and they would move on. So it was a mix. I would say it was less than 10 people who actually jumped onto the field. I would say there was only one really serious kind of, Ooh, this is, this isn't good kind of situation. I would say most guys were doing it for the sake of doing it. it right and then you were in that video that was making the rounds where was that a raiders employee that was screaming at the media to get off of the field because that was weird because i couldn't quite figure it out it was almost like he was picking certain people to yell at he was kicking out one photographer and i don't know why that was happening because there were literally 20 or 30 other media members on the field so i don't know why that was i was filming it because i thought it had a real potential to go quite South because the guy was really aggressive. I don't know if

the audio was picked up, but he said, get off my field. And I was just, well, first of all, dude, like this is over, like we're done. So whatever, whatever power you had, uh, when, when this first started, you no longer have, cause the Raiders are leaving Oakland. But then beyond that, you start to think about, uh, you know, the about the last gas power trip. Maybe he just wanted to kick somebody off one last time. I'm not totally sure where he was going with that. But I was filming it because I thought that he was just angry and just sort of wanted to go with somebody I thought it was going to maybe even turn physical. So it was fine. Everybody else stayed on. It was just a generally weird vibe with them trying to kick the media off the field. But it was really only that guy who was trying to do it. And there's really only that

media member. So I don't know. It was all very strange. Yeah. You know, I remember years and years ago when Boston won their first World Series and everybody went crazy in that city. And ever since then, and I remember after they won it 2013 at home, which, you know, they had won in St. Louis, they'd won in Colorado in 2007. So Boston was like the first time they were going to win it there in 2013 in Game 6 against the Cardinals. And they set up the perimeter so that literally no one would ever be able to linger. It was like funneling you out blocks and blocks and blocks. And they closed down the bars where you couldn't get into it,

even though it was before 2 o'clock, unless you were already in there before the close of the game. Like it was impossible to get in any places. And it was all in the aftermath of 2004 where the security guys, depending on which side of the argument you come down on, I'm trying to have an open mind about both. Like, was it an excessive crowd thing? Yes. Was it excessive force? Well, in the case of one young woman who lost her life, like it was horrible. And I remember kind of getting in an argument with a friend of mine who's like high up in law enforcement being like, you know, there's a bunch of yahoos sitting there firing

away at crowds. And he goes, all right, you know, he was pissed at me. law enforcement being like you know there's a bunch of yahoos sitting there firing away at crowds and he goes all right you know he was pissed at me and he goes you know what i've had to be in that kind of situation and you have no freaking idea what it's like when you know that if the numbers get overwhelming then you're going to get overwhelmed by the mob and there comes a time where it's like if you're doing something you're not supposed to do like we have to react to that because we also have the stress and anxiety of like this could get really really bad if thousands of people decide to all start doing the same thing, which is actually kind of the weird thing about human nature where it does come together, where something I would never do by myself, I'm now going to do because a bunch of other people are also doing it. So I don't know if it's a power trip and an ex-fullback from high school type of thing. That's always the case.

But I just know that after I got in that argument with my friend, I've always kind of thought about it a little differently. Still, if I think some guys at times lose their shit when they shouldn't. So I don't know. I don't know if that adds anything to it. I get where you're coming from. I get where you're coming from, but he was taken out on a photographer

and not the people who were jumping onto the field. I agree with you that it could have gone south as far as just like two people jump on the field and then 50 people decide they want to do it. And that didn't happen. And it was generally a peaceful situation. But the power trip was that he wasn't yelling at the people coming onto the field and then 50 people decided they want to do it. And that didn't happen. And I was generally a peaceful situation, but he, the, the power trip was that he wasn't yelling at the people coming onto the field. He was yelling at some random, like, I don't even know. I, he had an NFL vest on, so he was, he was approved by the team. That doesn't mean he

works at the NFL, but I, he was just yelling at some sort of vaguely elderly photographer. That's why I found that kind of strange is that if you're going to get mad at anybody, look at the guys who are, who might be escalating a tense situation by, by running onto the field. I actually thought it was going to be much worse than actually was just when you start to see, because at the beginning there were three people getting arrested at the same time and security was kind of stretched thin. And I was like, geez, if like four more people jump on the field, they're not gonna be able to contain this. But luckily it kind of, it was, it was fine. It was, there was no threatening situation or anything like that it was it was generally just

Raiders fans being upset I thought your use of Ray Rado's line um who's a longtime Bay Area columnist who basically was like this actually wasn't as talked about and I always find that that comparison really interesting and how something could be looked at locally versus nationally and we almost made a bigger deal about it nationally than they did locally because ray rado's line was essentially like when you're the guy threatening to leave the party for hours then people just stop caring and that's basically what the raiders were so was it something that actually locally the fans the people closest to the story were more over it than maybe we thought they would be. Yeah, I mean, remember, this was supposed to be the finale was supposed to be last year and they were going to play a temporary situation this year that ended up not happening. So they're back in Oakland. So this was really, you know, I was at the Niners practice and I started telling people media that I was going to this game.

And a lot of people locally, even in the media had just forgotten that they, that they were in their market, a team was saying goodbye for the last time. Um, it was actually kind of strange in that regard. So I think that it seemed, listen, one of the things about Raiders games is they such a national fan base and a lot of the people I was actually kind of listening in to TV interviews in the parking lot and stuff like that. And there are a lot of people who, who flew in from LA or New York or Boston or whatever. And so those people, they're just going to relocate to Las Vegas. And I think that I don't think that's a huge percentage of the crowd, but it is kind of when you talk about Raider Nation, quote unquote, and the people who drive the big school buses or whatever and wear the big shoulder pads, a lot of those people will still be in Vegas because it's a national thing

for them. And so I think that, yeah, we talked about it nationally more than it was in Oakland. And honestly, walking around the parking lot, it seemed like a big game atmosphere, but it also just seemed like people just wanted to see Raider football. There wasn't until the end there, it wasn't just a real sense of goodbye. It was more like, hey, we get to party one more time. It's a really cool, I don't know if you've ever been there, but the parking lot is a really cool atmosphere. It's just, it's very collegiate, just a ton of tailgating. And I think that instead my god this is so sad pregame it was more like hey we have we've got six more hours to drink a bunch of corona watch raider football so let's just let it rip

hey did car not get it when he went out there and tried to like have this moment with the fans because i mean look it was an ugly ugly loss to a bad football team too and you know I think the one thing we've learned about Carr is that you know especially during hard knocks like he's an incredibly nice guy like he's a really nice guy who like kind of wakes up every day trying to find a way to like make the world better I know this sounds like really extreme but I mean I just think that's kind of his mindset that he's a happy he's a positive person despite all the the ups and downs he's gone through with this franchise. But was that a misread by him thinking like, hey, I'm going to go out there as like the quarterback and shake hands with everybody? And then people just boom right to his face.

So he was the third player to go over there and the first two got almost no reaction. And if there was any reaction, it was booze. And so I actually thought I when he started to walk over there, I actually thought it was going to be a nice reaction, but I didn't think it was going to be just incredible. I thought it was going to be like polite clapping or something because he was going over to see some kids and then there was one guy in the big shoulder pads.

I think he dresses like a gorilla, I think. I think that's his shtick. And so he was going over there to high five those guys who were there every game. And he ended up just getting, I mean, as soon as he started walking over there, it was just a wall of booze. This isn't going to be good. And he kept going. I mean, to his credit, he could have bailed out and just kind of waved and said, thank

you. But he really, he cut through the booze, went in there and started to embrace people in there. So I think that, I think he got it once he started to move towards there. And I think that he just decided, screw it. I'm just going to have this moment and, and cut through it. And I think that after the game, he basically said, what's new. I think he's been booed by, by the black hole quite a bit. I think he was just, I think it was, that was him being a nice guy. I actually think it's a massive credit to him that he kept going

and didn't just bail out as soon as he realized it was gonna it wasn't gonna go so well for him when the rams took golf i thought at the time and a lot of different versions of this thing came out where you know fisher was like oh i was always a wentz guy after wentz was awesome and golf wasn't good and then golf was good again and now he isn't as good and i it just felt like, hey, we got a new franchise in L.A. We have no juice of quarterback. Let's take a guy number one overall. Let's trade up for him. And let's put these banners out.

And look, he ended up becoming far better than after that first disastrous season. But I wonder at times, like with this move to Vegas, if they'll feel like, can we do this in the first year with Carr? Or will the novelty of the first year of NFL football in Vegas be enough and it's not going to matter who's a quarterback? Great question. So Derek Carr, I believe Derek Carr is building a house near John Gruden's. I think that he, at least for the short term, thinks that he is the Raiders quarterback going to Vegas. I think that there's a baseline of competence there with Derek Carr. I know that at times that has not seemed, it's not seemed like he's the answer, but I actually think that they can win eight, nine games next year with their car and he can be sort of a mini answer, a short-term answer. He's not, he is not an elite

quarterback and probably never will be, but he is, he's a, a very competent quarterback. And I think that's kind of what you need in your first year. Um, listen, I think that they need, they need people on billboards. And that was kind of the thing with the Antonio Brown thing in the beginning was they they need people on billboards who can sell this team and at this point I mean Josh Jacobs is a nice player obviously they hit on some of those young guys but at this point it was like there's a lot of John Gruden billboards and in Vegas and actually think that the more names the better in that situation and so I think going with Derek Carr in the short term is not a terrible option. I think he's okay. The contract has become manageable. I think there's probably going to be just a huge glut of veteran quarterback for agents this year, but I don't think you really want to go out and spend a bunch of money on, you know, on, on James Winston or something. Yeah, that makes sense. Now, the other thing that I love about sports is how against something they can all be collectively like a franchise in Vegas, like we can't do that because of gambling. And now the gambling is kind of different in these modern times, but it's just, okay, well, the NHL does it first and the NHL franchise is third in percentage of attendance.

So they're one of a few teams that are over a hundred percent attendance. So that's worked out well. It's considered a great fan base. I know the NFL has talked about, well, they're one of a few teams that are over 100% attendance. So that's worked out well. It's considered a great fan base. I know the NFL has talked about, well, they're actually closer to that Southern California, LA Raider fan base and all these different things. But yeah, that was before they had two teams here. Really, it's one team that anybody cares about in the Rams. Yeah. But I just love it. It's a lot like beer in a college stadium.

Like you can't have beer, college students, athletes, and then one place does it. And then everybody's like, hey, you know what we should do is start firing budweiser's everybody once they get into the gates and it's just so stupid no but seriously it gets unbelievable that we're at this stage of the timeline of of of human of humanity you know i'm not to try to get uh real deep here on you but like the idea that like we can't do that we can't do that oh the hockey's popular okay let's get everybody's gonna get franchised there and so i'm wondering you know i always thought tickets would do well in that city because you have all these different hotels you have all these different things you'd want to promote i would love to be not that i would actually want to do this but if you worked

in sales and signage and tickets and psls and all that stuff the first year working for a vegas nfl franchise must be a layup with the amount of commissions these guys are making because everybody would want to be a part of it so now that this is happening we know it's for real like the NFL must think that this is going to be an absolute home run to approve another relocation something they always say they don't want to do but have done quite a bit recently yeah well I mean I think that this member this was part of the original LA thing which is that you know if the Chargers didn't exercise their option, the Raiders had an opportunity to go and then they didn't, then they ended up in Vegas. I mean,

Oakland wasn't going to publicly finance a stadium that was just never going to happen. And so the Raiders had to do something again, that stadium for all its charm and for all the kind of nostalgia associated with nineties NFL, um, that is there. Uh,

that's a very, very crappy stadium. So I think that the NFL thinks this will go pretty well. And obviously they're gonna have a nice stadium. I mean, listen, their facilities in Oakland practice field, all that stuff, it was just not that nice. And Vegas is going to give them very nice things. I think that the Raiders just kind of want to be spoiled a little bit in that regard. So I think that there's, I think this will go better. I mean, this was not, I think they'll actually probably end up better than certainly the chargers. And when you think about

the Rams, I mean, the Rams are building a $6 billion stadium. They're not going to sell out their first year of season tickets. Like if you want it, if you would be anybody right now, I understand that in 50 years, you know, the Rams will be making more as far as revenue goes because of the market. But in the short term, like, wouldn't you rather be the Raiders right now moving into a billion dollar stadium in Las vegas where it's really cheap to live where players are going to want to play like this is a pretty nice gig for them yeah and when you add in the fact that mark davis is probably the least uh the least i would say he's the most cash poor of any of the owners and you know especially once the warriors deal goes through which is

which was very much privately financed. You know, it's hard for that area if you've ever been up there to say, oh, yeah, we're going to go ahead and put together this billion dollar stadium. We're cronking on the other end, maybe the richest individual NFL owner and was like, look, I'm just going to do all these different things. And boom, franchise value through the roof. All right. Well, that was that was really good coverage. I check it out on the ringer piece from Kevin Clark And make sure you check out the Ringer NFL show. And thanks for joining us for a few minutes here, man. It was good stuff. Anytime, man.

Okay, I want to thank everybody. Kyle, back on the mic. Joe Thomas and Kevin Clark. And close on this note, you know the risk of driving drunk. There could be a crash. People could get hurt or killed. You could get arrested, incur huge legal expenses, and possibly even lose your job. You know the consequences of driving drunk.

And you're wrong if you think it's no big deal. Drive sober or get pulled over. Okay, I'll have a full UVM scouting report breakdown for Friday. That will probably not lead the pod, but that's what we'll be doing. And the rest is TBD. So, I hope everybody's gearing up for the next week and the holiday. Please subscribe, rate,

and review, and we'll keep growing and kicking butt so thanks everybody Thank you.