The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Todd McShay on the 2019 NFL Draft Class; Plus, Make a Ruling: Kirk Cousins | Dual Threat With Ryen Russillo (Ep. 16)

Episode Date: December 14, 2018

Russillo talks with Todd McShay about next year's NFL draft prospects in a very defense-heavy draft class before hitting on various NFL happenings and making a ruling on Kirk Cousins, the Washington Redskins, and the Minnesota Vikings. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

what's good y'all um i like when people go to college down south and they come back by christmas break and they say y'all you go dude you're from saugus. Like, what is this? What's this y'all thing? You know? Where do you go to school? Tampa? Okay, got it. All right. So we got McShay for about 45 minutes or so.

His first mock draft is out on ESPN.com. And then I'm going to do some rapid fire NFL stuff, including this week's edition, make a ruling, Kirk Cousins, the Washington Redskins, and then kind of a little bonus, make a ruling, Kirk Cousins, the Washington Redskins, and then kind of a little bonus make a ruling, Kirk Cousins, Minnesota Vikings. Basically, I just talk myself into these arguments where I don't want to pick either side.

I think that's what's going on lately with me. And then we may or may not have a Chris Fowler tribute. I'm not sure yet. Okay, before we do any of that, that was great to be back up in Burlington, Vermont, my old stomping grounds this past weekend. And it reminded me of Belvedere, being back in the old little hut.

I didn't work a ship this weekend. That would have been weird. But if I had, I would have said, Hey, hey man. Sick Jordans and skinny jeans. You, my friend, should order Belvedere.

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And the thing is she was still really cute and the braces thing sort of worked for her. And I'll never forget that day. Enjoy a delicious cocktail with Belvedere vodka today, and remember to always drink responsibly. Before we get to the rest of the show, too, I want to remind you, if you or someone you know may be suffering from textile dysfunction, wait a minute, what is Rosillo selling here?

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to some semi-formal function somewhere because I'm pumped about my shirt. Mizzen and Main look great longer. Todd, the first mock is out. You're super busy. I know. I appreciate your time here.

So let's start with this. You have Bosa going one. How certain is that at the top with Nick Bosa? Is it that it'd be a shock if he wasn't the number one pick? We're still months away from this thing, but certain drafts kind of play out that way. Where are you at with Bosa and who could go one? Yeah, I mean, I would be surprised,

but there are enough really good players, especially on the defensive side, that I wouldn't be shocked if it was one of these other guys. Quinnen Williams from Alabama really came out of nowhere this year. I mean, I was talking about Raekwon Davis and Isaiah Buggs in the preseason. I didn't even do his tape

because I just, you know, he wasn't considered one of the top underclassmen. And all of a sudden, we had Alabama against Ole Miss, I think it was, and watching the tape, getting ready for that game. Damn, 92, man.

Every single play. He's unbelievable. When they did that mashup before the Auburn game when CBS did that full thing on him and his family and the whole deal and you just watch play after play and I was at the LSU game, they couldn't block him and I'm talking every snap.

If you ran into him, he made the play. So, go ahead. I asked Saban about it. He was like, something along the lines of I think he got sick and tired of seeing all the other guys on lists like yours.

And he finally snapped to it. I was like, okay, got it. But, you know, so long and short, there are a bunch of other guys. I think Bosa's the most complete player. The Cardinals, specifically, if they're picking at number one, they need offensive line help, receiver help, corner. I mean, they've got a bunch of different needs.

But I think they certainly could use a pass rusher. The 49ers potentially could be picking at one. They need a net rusher The 49ers potentially could be picking at one. They need a net rusher. The Raiders could be picking at one. They need a net rusher as well. The Jets sitting at four right now. They need a net rusher. So bottom line is any one of those four teams winds up picking at one.

I don't know how you're going a different direction, but if Bosa doesn't go one, he's going to likely go two, or worst case, like three or four. That sounded like a shot. Was Saban taking a shot at you there? What's your relationship with Saban? No, it wasn't. Not very.

What's my relationship with Saban? I would say of all the coaches that I know in college football, I know him the least alright but do you feel like I think he's somebody who always respects somebody who puts their work in you know how he is

yeah I do he's like one of those most thinner guys who likes to use like needle and yeah he was like yeah I was just

shot across the top that's okay I mean he's he's allowed to do it but I the fact that he even thought to say it like yeah cool yeah see that to me though is I think it's one of those things with him I mean, he's allowed to do it. Yeah, the fact that he even thought to say it, like, yeah, cool.

Yeah. See, that to me, though, is, I think it's one of those things with him, because I'm always, you know, you get asked about, oh, do you like this guy or do you like that guy? And I always stick up for Saban because I just go, oh, well, you know, he's been nice to me. And he's said specific enough things where you go, wow, this guy's paying a little bit more attention than you think. Or he doesn't think you're a clown. Like, I knew if he thought I was a clown, he wouldn't even bother with that stuff. So I imagine that the three of us are all pretty close. It was pretty interesting, too, that week that we had Alabama, Drew Brees, remember, he broke the record.

Yeah. You know, it was the big thing with the passing yards or whatever it was. And so we asked him at the end, Greasy actually asked him at the end of our interview with him, sitting down talking to him, and he's like, you know, what about Breeze?

Did you see that? Did you ever look back and think about how things would be different if when you were in Miami, you guys actually went with Drew Brees. And he told the story, you know, the whole medical story about how he, the team doctors basically failed Brees. Cannell's dad, yeah.

He went to Dr. Andrews, and Dr. Andrews was like, no, I would take Brees over Lefwich if you're just asking medical opinion. Culpepper. So he went back. Right. What's that? It was Culpepper, not Lefwich. Sorry,'re just asking medical opinion. So he went back. What's that? It was Culpepper, not Lefwich. Sorry, Culpepper.

Yeah, Culpepper. I would take Brees over Culpepper. And he's like, I went back to the owner. And the owner, I think it was Huizenga, I don't assume. But he's like, the owner said, no, we're going to go with Culpepper. And he's like, all right. He's like, and I, you know, at that point, I, I, he goes at that point in my career, I didn't have the chops to tell an owner what to do.

It's his team. He owns it. And then he walked out. He's like, it might be different today or something like that. You know, just like you think about how Nick Saban and what he's done with college football and, and Alabama and the program that he's built had he just said to the owner, you know what? I went and got a second opinion,

Dr. Andrews, I'm hell-bent on Drew Brees, this whole thing would be different. You know, the whole Alabama thing would never have happened. It's crazy. Right, and LSU and Auburn fans listening right now are going, stop reminding us. Okay, back to the draft stuff here. So when you grade out, no, this is on me.

I asked you to go off and you did, so I appreciate it. So when you look at the draft, I know you'll do first round grades. Like your draft order in a mock is different than your actual order of talent and all that kind of stuff. So we can kind of get into that. The depth seems to be on the defensive line, maybe the edge a little bit here. How many first round grades, if you've done it yet, but does this feel like a deep first round? What kind of draft is this? maybe in the edge a little bit here. How many first-round grades, if you've done it yet,

but does this feel like a deep first round? What kind of draft is this? It's pretty normal. I've got 20 first-round grades right now. But the part that's not that normal is that it's just so D-line heavy. And defense-heavy, obviously. I think it was like 21 or 22 of the guys in the mock draft were on the defensive side of the ball. But then when you look at it,

1991 is the only year where the first five picks were on the defensive side. And that goes back to 1967, the common draft era, is what they call it. And this year, not only did I have all five on the defensive side, but all five were defensive linemen. Nick Bosa, Rashawn Gary from Michigan, Quinn and Williams, Alabama, Cleland Farrell,

Earl, sorry, from Clemson, and Dexter Lawrence from Clemson as well. So that's the part that's kind of crazy. And then, unfortunately, for the TV side of things, when I looked at guys that have actual first-round grades, I've got two offensive tackles, and then everyone else is on the defensive side. An outside linebacker, two inside linebackers,

and then all defensive tackles, safety, and two corners and defensive ends. So, wait, do you have a running back or receiver going in the first round? You have Marquise Brown going to Denver. The first point you're asking about is that in the mock draft, they had two receivers going. No running backs going.

But first round grades, like I said, there are only 20 guys, which is pretty normal. Every year, it's around 20 to 23, 24 players that actually have first round grades. This year, right now, I've got 20 players with first round grades and no quarterbacks, no running backs, no wide receivers, no tight end. Okay. That's AJ Brown, the kid from Ole Miss who actually was really impressive this

year. And I mentioned Hollywood Brown there, but you got to go into Denver at 18. So that's the only two there. So, okay. Let's talk about the quarterbacks a little bit because going into last year, we thought, okay, this could be a really special group and it still has a chance to do that. It ended up being really one of the biggest stories of, of the entire draft. I mean, I think it was the story and you had a five going the first four go really high. You have Justin Herbert, Oregon going seven. Does this feel though, like a lot of times where there's really not much in the free agent market, there's probably going to be six or seven teams that want to make some sort of change where a team loads up and decides, okay, yeah, I understand

grade wise where Herbert is compared to those defensive linemen, but he ends up going higher. Like if I had a bet right now, I would bet that Herbert ends up going. So this isn't me saying, trust me, I'm not doing, cause I know how annoying the mock drafts can be. But I would be shocked to think that the first quarterback goes seventh knowing what these teams do. I get that. And just first of all, Herbert definitely is the most physically gifted. The more tape I watch of Dwayne Haskins, I've been cramming. We didn't have Ohio State

all season long. He's a one-year starter. Watched him against Penn State. He struggled the first three quarters and then he brought them back in the fourth quarter. That was the first coach copy tape that I sat down and watched. I was watching it to study Penn State's defense, getting ready

for a different game. Long short, I've gone back in the past week and started studying his tape, including the Michigan and Northwestern games, and obviously rivalry and Big Ten championship, and he's a lot better than I thought. I honestly think he's got a chance to be the first quarterback taken, but regardless,

to your point, the Cardinals, I mean, they just drafted a quarterback in, I think, 10 overall, right? Yeah, right. They got Rosen. Right. Right.

The Raiders, they could move on from Derek Carr. I mean, John has QBADD. We all know that. But if they stick with Derek Carr, then they're not going to draft a quarterback. The Jets just drafted theirs. QB, ADD, we all know that. But if they stick with Derek Carr, then they're not going to draft a quarterback. The Jets just drafted theirs.

The Falcons have theirs. The Bills have theirs. I mean, those are the six teams right now. If the draft were to be held today, those are the top six teams drafting. It's hard to imagine that one of those teams... Now, obviously, the Jaguars could move up. The Giants could try to move up ahead of the Jaguars and so on and so forth. But if we're just looking at the top six teams in this class, or this year's draft, I can't imagine one of those teams outside of potentially the Raiders would try to bring in one of these quarterbacks. I know you, like you said, a lot of the tape that you break down is based on the game assignment you have that week, and I know that

you're basically on divorce alert these next couple months here. So, I know that your opinion will strengthen or lessen for Herbert Haskins, but the sense I get from you is I almost feel like you feel like once this thing is done and you send in your final mock

and that's a lot different than the information that you're going to have at your disposal because I know you talked to a lot of teams. It sounds like you're almost leaning Haskins, like you're preparing yourself to like Haskins more after more film. Yeah, I think you're right. To be totally honest. Here's the problem. I've

studied Herbert coming into the season. I've watched Herbert on and off this year. I really had to get caught up on Haskins. Now I'm actually more prepared on Haskins and then a little bit less prepared on Herbert. What do you like about him? What's great and give me the plus-minuses on Haskins.

He is a naturally instinctive pocket passer. And by that I mean he's a a quick decision maker, processes things quickly. He feels pressure. He's not the greatest athlete. He's certainly not a very good runner. But he's athletic enough to move inside the pocket and extend plays. And what I really like about him is that he's accurate and he has anticipation. He will throw guys open, and he does it consistently.

He doesn't miss many of the easy throws or the average, moderate-type throws, and he makes a high percentage of the hard, the difficult throws down the field, whereas Herbert makes a high percentage of those really difficult throws, but misses too many of those easier-to-moderate-type throws, which gets frustrating at times. And I think he's a little bit of a better decision-maker at this point, or a quicker decision-maker and processes things quicker.

Herbert, at times, I mean, really, I thought was special and people always making jokes because... He's different than Josh Allen. To me,

like... Is that good? When you watch Holy Sleep, like, there's, you know,

not many guys can do this. He can run, man. Yeah, I mean, but it doesn't matter. Right,

I mean, to me, that never, it's always exciting and it's fun to watch, but I never look at that and go, okay, this means he's going to be a really good pro because he's way faster than you. Yeah.

Right. Fortunately or unfortunately. Right. So, I mean, Allen's great at running. He's been terrible at throwing since he's gotten in the league. Okay. So, where would Kyler Murray go if we knew he were going in this year's draft? He would, in my opinion, be a first-round pick.

A first-rounder. He's 5'9", 5'9", and a half. I don't care. I think... But he's behind... I think the league... He's behind Herbert and Haskins. I think he and...

I think he would be... We would be talking about these three in competition to be the first off the board. I really do. I think the league is changing, man. I really... You study... The college game is trickling into the NFL. I really do. I think the league is changing, man. I really, like, you study, the college game is trickling into the NFL

instead of vice versa. And by that, I mean, everything's spread out. The verbiage is being cut down. We're trying to go faster and be less complicated, trying to more like team throws, move inside the pocket, quick decisions, quick trigger, tempo, let's go, and then if play's not working, be able to move around.

And that's what Tyler is. And he excelled in a system that was obviously Baker's had a good year as a rookie. And it's not just Baker. Russell Wilson, what's the difference between 5'10 and 3'8 inches and 5'9 and a half? You're telling me less than an inch is going to be the deciding factor in whether a player has success or fails?

I just don't buy it anymore. I really don't. The problem is I legitimately do not think that he's going to try to play in the NFL. I think a team's going to draft him at some point to try to sway him. I don't think they'll use a first-round pick unless he comes out and absolutely says he's committing to it. But I don't think he'll do that. Yeah, the money that he's going to make from baseball,

$5 million-plus guaranteed, if he were to go in the top 10, those four years are guaranteed. That's like $4,000, $4,800, $4,900. That's guaranteed. If he were to go in the top 10, those four years are guaranteed. That's like 4, 8, 4, 9. Yeah, so that's guaranteed. Say that again? Well, he's going to be guaranteed for the first four years. Basically, everybody in those top picks,

like, it all becomes guaranteed money anyway. So he'd actually make more money the first... I'd have to look at the baseball contract again, but he would... Yeah, the guaranteed money, if he was a first-round pick, let's say he was picked at...

Seven or eight. He was 16, a grade in the middle. He would be guaranteed 14 to 16 million, somewhere in that range. If he was the first overall pick, he would be close to $30 million guaranteed. And he's guaranteed, my understanding is, he's, you know, I've talked to one of my best friends

who works in Major League Baseball, and I think it's 4.88, somewhere in that range. Let's call it $5 million, but he's guaranteed off the A's contract. But if he plays, he's going to make a boatload of money. Plus, you know, you have to look at the health and the longevity and all those other things. Right, but as dangerous as football is,

can we all finally get to the point that a lot of these quarterbacks, they don't stop playing because they're hurt. It's because they're not good enough. Anybody that's good enough to play, even if it's an Alex Smith injury that happens, the odds are still far greater that you're going to play if you're good enough to be a starting quarterback for a decade so i know when people go football and the injury and you never know and all these different things and baseball and all that stuff i would think for a quarterback

it's a it's it's different i think sometimes that stuff gets a little overstated how often we have devastating you know injury like career altering injuries it just doesn't happen nearly as much as people throw it around. Ten years ago, I would have said you're crazy, but the game has changed that much. It really has. So I agree with you. But you still, I think this.

I think he has a better chance to succeed and make more money in the NFL based off of just looking at history of baseball draft picks and all of that than he does in major league baseball. But if he's as good as people think he is, then the career he could have, he could make a ton more money in major league baseball. And very likely, if you were to play the odds game,

very likely walk away from his baseball career with a lot less damage done to his body. Yeah, that's fine. Right. At the end of the day, he's just got to decide what he loves. You know, what does he love? What does he want to do? What is he dying to pursue?

And I think that's the part that we don't know, but it just continues to seem like it's baseball. Right. And that's fine. It would just, it'd just continues to seem like it's baseball. Right, and that's fine. It would just be brutal to decide, well, I should do this because there's more money in it. But you're smart to bring up the point that forget the signing bonus with the A's, start projecting if he's actually going to be as good as some people think he's going to be as a baseball player. We're talking insane numbers. Right, right.

So, okay. So if you were – I'll do this last quarterback thing here. I have two more little quarterback questions. If you look at last year's draft, and as you pointed out, Baker won, Donald three, Allen seven, Rosen ten. Where would – if Herbert or Haskins were in, say, last year's class, would they go ahead of any of those guys? No, I don't think so.

Okay. I arose in potentially only because of the durability stuff, but I still don't think so. I really think it would be those four, and then these guys would be in between 11 and Lamar Jackson. Is there somebody else, and you've always been good at this over the years, it's kind of my Brian Hoyer-McShay rule, where you're walking down the hallway and be like,

hey, what's going on? You'd be like, you know what? He's not a star, and I know he's not going to go high, but man, I kind of like Brian Hoyer. Kind of like. What does that mean? It means he's going to be a decent backup for the next 12 years. But, look,

I mean, you know, that's... Talk about wasting time. To me, that's a hit. That's a hit. No, I get it. Do you have one of those? I do.

I'll never forget Madison Square Garden, the 18 lunatics that were still there late in the seventh round chanting Brian Hoyer at me because he hadn't been picked and I've been talking about him

as a third or fourth round prospect all month. Which, by the way, was pretty clever. I thought it was smart. That is good. That's when you know you're reaching the people.

More of the McShay in a second, including five questions and the best front office in the NFL, in his opinion. But this holiday season, instead of buying an ugly sweater for a distant uncle, buy something to treat yourself. Buy Bespoke Post's Box of Awesome.

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are there some other, you know, is Will Greer worth mentioning, not that he's Hoyer, but is there somebody else, a couple names that you're excited to kind of watch and be the dude that you're always talking about as a mid late round guy? This year's class to me is

really interesting because of all those guys. I mean, you got your Haskins and Herbert, and we'll see how it all plays out, but there is more depth in the second, third, fourth round than you'd normally see. Will Greer is, I think, a little bit underrated. Drew Locke

is not a first-round talent, but he's got talent. He was recruited to play basketball at Oklahoma. He's an athlete, and people don't really realize that about him. He struggled a little bit early on when his receivers were out, and he had nothing. No one was open. There was nothing he could do

with the football. But then in the second half of the season, he really got hot. Ryan Finley from North Carolina State is also underrated. You've never quit him. You've never quit Finley. You've never never quit him. You've never quit Finley. You've never quit on him. You've liked him all year.

I'll never quit on Finley. He'll be a third, fourth round pick. I'll be banging the table for him. Jared Stidham, I struggle to figure him out. He definitely wasn't in the right system at Auburn, but he's a natural thrower. Kuyper loves Daniel Jones. He's a smart guy.

He gets it. But I think he's a year away. Okay, hold on, hold on. You can't just say because Jones was like, that sounds like such a Duke throwaway line. Be like, hey, smart, gets it. Well, all right. So he's been around Coach Cutcliffe.

He's spent summers with the Mannings, Eli and Peyton, obviously, with the relationship there. He understands the game. He knows coverages. He can walk into an NFL quarterback room and be competent, which you can't say for a lot of these guys. Will Greer is going to need at least a year. Drew Locke is learning now, this

year for the first time, because he's the new coordinator that brought some pro-style stuff in from Dallas Cowboys. But before that, he was just another spread quarterback. Finley would be ready to walk into a quarterback room. Stidham will not be. Daniel Jones is the next guy up, and

I think he will be. He's got size. He's got... More He's got solid arm. More athletic than you think? What's that? More athletic than you think, maybe? More athletic than you think. But he's kind of a long delivery, and he's just inconsistent with decision-making,

and he doesn't have a lot of special qualities outside of just being able to process things. Okay. But there's, like, to my point, there's Jake Bentley from South Carolina who's probably going to go back to school and should, but he's pretty talented. Nate Stanley from Iowa is underrated. He needs to go back to school for another year, but he's going to be another guy I think a year from now we'll talk about in the second or third round.

Gardner Minshew out of Washington State, he's got something to him. Clayton Thorson from Northwestern. Trace McSorley is going to wind up in the league for three or four years, maybe six, seven years, because he's a grinder and smart and does all the little things. He's probably never going to start a game and never play, but he's got some special stuff to him. I mean, there are just so many guys in this class

that could be backups or number threes in the league, but how exciting is that to talk about, you know? Yeah, no, that isn't, and that was actually a really thorough job. Okay, another name that I wanted to bring up, Ed Oliver, Houston defensive lineman. What happened to him this year that he went to 13th?

Now, granted, I'll admit I watched two games, the Houston-Arizona game that you guys did, and then I watched the other game that he didn't play in where he got in a fight with his head coach or an argument on the sideline. So how did he go from, when he was coming out of high school, we were saying this guy could be the number one overall pick, and it's still a credit to him that, you know, out of high school, the recruit that he was, and then to say, okay, it all worked out.

But did something happen with his game to put him behind so many other defensive linemen? First of all, just so everyone understands, it has nothing to do with the jacket situation on the sideline, the fight that he got in with Major Applewhite. I could not care less. NFL scouts could not care less. If anything, and I like Major a lot. I think he's a good coach.

I think he was boiling over that night the frustration that Ed Oliver probably could have been on the field and wasn't on the field and was still kind of hanging around wearing the jacket and whatever. Him falling a little bit and we're talking about top three, four

picks to seven, eight picks later. The biggest thing I hear from NFL scouts, and I didn't realize it, I thought he was in the two-ninths. I thought he was like 293, 295. He's 270 to 272 pounds every time he's been weighed in.

And you've got to figure out what to do with that. You know, everyone wants to make the Aaron Donald comparison, but Aaron Donald was 290, 293, somewhere in that range. And there's a big difference. So now you've got a 6'1", 3 technique at 270 pounds that can he hold up is the question. You know, playing defensive tackle inside for 40, 50, 60 plays in the game, or are you going to try to move outside of defensive end where he loses his leverage against 6' five, six, seven offensive tackles

and doesn't have the speed off the edge? So every scout I talk to is like, yeah, I love him. He's a great player. I don't know where he's going to play for us. That's what I keep hearing, and I understand that. Then the other thing that I've noticed over time, because I went back and I actually studied, I went back to the pit tape with Aaron Donald.

Because right off the bat, you look at the measurables, you look at the production, the motor, the quickness, and all those things are comparable when you talk about Aaron Donald. But if you're going to make that comparison, you damn better, well, be sure about it. And the thing that I went back and watched was how advanced was Donald in terms of pass rushing. And he's so much better with his hands, so much slipperier, so much more consistent as a finisher

when he was at Pitt on the tapes that I watched compared to what I saw from Ed Oliver. Oliver's unbelievably disruptive. He's great versus the run. He's going to wreak havoc constantly. But the thing he doesn't do is get off of blocks when he's rushing the passer and finish consistently enough. And that's the thing. If he wants to go from a really good player to a great player,

he's going to have to improve in that area. I'm so glad you did that because I know everyone's going to do that. They're going to go, oh, so what? What about Aaron Donald? And you're like, oh, yeah, okay, so let's do this. Let's do the not-perfect-measurables exception being the single maybe best football player in the NFL. I mean, of any position.

You know, so it's just, I always feel like guys that do what we do, they just sort of say stuff. They go, oh, you know, why is it? Well, there's a reason why short quarterbacks don't work out. You know, people are like, you know, why is it? Well, there's a reason why short quarterbacks don't work out. Right. People are like, who's, you know, he looks like Aaron Donald. It's easy to do that. And I got it. And I even said, like, you know, he's got some of the similarities to Aaron Donald.

But I was like, you know what? If I'm going to say this. Look it up. As much respect I have for Aaron Donald, I better know what I'm doing with this one. So I think he's more Grady Jarrett. You know, a guy who's great, who's very disruptive, can come in and wreak havoc, great versus the run, but just may never be a great finisher as a pass rusher. Yeah, and you know, Aaron Donald went lower because he was short.

And you know that I've always been great on defensive linemen. sure and I you know that I've always been great on defensive linemen and when Van Pelt and I had the show you know J.J. Watt was our guy and we both were like man because you know who loved Aaron Donald the whole time Bruce Feldman couldn't stop writing about Aaron Donald so every now and then you'd like throw on a pit game and you go why and it kind of reminded me the Indomitian Sioux stuff even though the measurables are different like when Indomitian Sioux was on it and was into it, it was the worst for the offensive line. He just ruined your whole plan, the whole game.

That's it. And Aaron Donald was doing that, but he was doing it at Pitt. And it actually, in a weird way, I don't know. I don't remember the talent, the rest. You just watched the film. But did it help Donald? The only reason he didn't go higher is because he wasn't 6'4". So did it help him?

Was the rest of that D line any good? The only reason he didn't go higher is because he wasn't 6'4". So did it help him? No question. Was the rest of that D-line any good? Was it any good at Pitt? Or was he so overwhelming that it actually helped him in a way, even if everybody was trying to game plan against him? Again, I'm asking the tape from years ago. They were fine, but he was so overwhelming. He was even better than I remember.

And I remember thinking that he was awesome. Was it as good as Sue that last year in Nebraska? Because that still, to me, is one of the most... Sue was like, I'm going to pick you up and throw you on the ground. And it was the weirdest tape I've ever watched. He would stand the guy up with his right arm and then just kind of club him by the side of the head. And it would be over. Whereas, you can watch on coach copy tape,

you can watch from the sideline and then from the end zone. And usually with offensive and defensive linemen, you watch from the end zone, tight top. But I was like, you know what, I want to watch from the sideline. So why? To just get a sense of how quick he is getting off the ball. Every snap, I was like 10 or 12 in a row, I would play and then the ball snapped and pause a split second later.

He would be, think about this, like a yard and a half, two yards more upfield than anyone else on the defensive line. I mean, it's nuts. Think about the difference within a split. As quick as my thumb could go, he was that far up the field. And then once he, then you get you off on your heels and then he'd be like, with his hands and

gone. Every single play he was a menace. It was crazy. Looking back on it, Vaughn Miller and he, and probably... Vaughn's a good one. You're talking about Vaughn, but guys with speed and quickness that just were terrorists in terms of how they played on the defensive side. Those are the two best players I've ever evaluated.

I love Sue that year because I thought, I thought if he'd won the Heisman that year, I'd be gone. That's fine. Like, I'm totally fine with that. Oh, yeah. But Von's a really good one because I still think Von, and I said this to him once, I would have, if he'd won the Heisman that year, I've been gone. That's fine. Like, I'm totally fine with that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But Vaughn's a really good one because I still think Vaughn, and I said this to him once, and then I don't know who I talked to about it, but I said, I swear if you did weird measurements

on him, like I just watched that HBO documentary on the surfers and they show that like Kelly Slater had scoliosis in his vertebrae and he had like double jointed everything. And then he started doing all these weird body positions and you go no wonder this guy's the greatest surfer ever like his body isn't he's like a he's like an x-man that's not like of the coolest ranking but he's just like hey super bendy guy he's not going to stop much and you can shoot him but vaughn i just love how we went from donald to sue to slater to kelly Slater. We got Kelly Slater in. But whenever I watch Vaughn, I've never seen somebody that big able to,

maybe Lawrence Taylor, you know, because that's kind of the default for everything that's, you know, unhuman. But Vaughn can, like his body lean, he can go at a deeper, more parallel angle to the ground than other people. And I wonder if his hips are lower. Yeah, I don't understand. There's something about the way his body's designed that I think is different than other

dudes that play the position. So there you go. Okay, I still have five questions for you. So we'll get to that little rapid fire. What I did always love about all the years, we didn't travel more than, remember, that was 10 years ago when we finally just shut it down after the Iron Bowl in 2008. We said, that's it. We're done. Yeah, 10 years ago when I asked you, I said, I really don't want to go out tonight.

I don't feel well. And you were like, me neither. You know where I was this year? I was back at our- The Houndstooth. The Houndstooth. The Houndstooth. Yeah, we were back there.

I told the story to a bunch of people there. Did they care? No one cares now. Back then, maybe no one cared 10 years ago, but we thought people cared. So I can't tell if that's us evolving, realizing that no one cares. We were so broke. We bought out that whole bar that night. Right.

Well, I didn't pay for any of it because you just were like, all right, it's on. And it was just, it was one of those things where it was the end of the year and like clockwork at the end of that year with game day, you'd always end up getting sick because you just were worn out. And it was almost like your body knew this was the last weekend. And I go, it was rainy. Tuberville got canned. We gave, remember, we were like, hey, like, hey, we really like you, Tug. You know, he's like, oh, thanks a lot. You know, and we're like, hey, we really like you, Tug. He's like, oh, thanks a lot. And we're like, all right. So they get smoked in the Iron Bowl. And then I'm so tired. It's rainy. It's dreary. The hotel's a little further out of town over by the Hooters there.

You guys know what I'm talking about that are in Tuscaloosa. And I was like, what do you think about a pizza and watching the late games, USC, Notre Dame? You're like, oh, that's an even idea. Like nothing. No, no problem. And then as soon as the thing ends, we ended up at a houndstooth and it was like the complete opposite. So we'll leave that alone. But the point is, is that one of my favorite things about being on the road with you is on the sideline and how everybody would always try to impress Todd McShay because there'd be like somebody who'd get a hit. And then they look at Todd to be like hmm Todd first rounder first rounder and everybody did it to you and I'm talking like the biggest names because that's how much respect all the

other people had for the work that you did and the draft stuff and that or least bidding least bidding started it like what do you think second, second round? Third round? What do you think? Yeah, well, because it was, at first people were doing it seriously, and then it became so ridiculous that then, yeah, Fitting and then other guys, and then I just realized, like, I'm in over my skis because I don't understand the game the way you guys do. And I think Stanford, Steve, and you always had, like, a very mutual respect because Steve always kind of knew, Stanford Steve knew, you know, the game as well as any of the guys that were on that sideline.

But now no one's better than him. Right. But one of my favorite ever is that you actually never, you'd sit there, you'd take some notes, things to look at, I'm sure, when you get the film. Because watching from the sideline, actually, I can't imagine is great for scouting, but you pick up some different things. And we were at the greatest game ever, Tech for Texas. And the reason why, I just think it's funny because I'd never, ever seen you do this being on the sidelines. So I think there was like three or four series and you're really laid back. There's not a lot of emotion out of you and you just turn to whoever's around you and you go and you kind of like cover your mouth, but you're like, my God, does this tackle suck? He is getting kicked.

His ass is getting kicked every single play. And like, I wouldn't, you know, I'm watching the ball. You know, I'm not watching the, I'm not watching how many they're sending. I'm not watching the outside matchups. And so I remember, I'm like, okay, well, let me see what that's like, what he's watching and then i watch and i don't remember if it's a left or right tackle i think it was their right tackle and whoever he was going up against for texas this was tex tackle he got beat up

now granted it didn't matter they won the game okay but it was just always one of those things that i'll never forget like it was the most animated most negative specific you had ever been about a player on the sideline. And the other thing, he was a draft prospect, but you just go, I don't, you may even said, I don't know who this tackle is, but he is getting his ass kicked every single play. And you weren't even talking to anybody. It was like you had to just say it.

So, anyway. Yeah, I think he was going up against like Corey Redding, one of those guys, one of those defensive ends. And I remember watching, like, this isn't even good. I don't remember staying yet, but I do remember it just being a slaughter fest. But then, because you said it, I started watching, and I was like, oh my god, this is a lot of fun. Like, finding specific matchups. Because the replay, like, when you're watching on TV, you should watch all this stuff.

Because they're going to show you the ball action on the replay anyway, And I've gotten a lot better at it the last couple of years. And that's why the hard part is like the most fun is on Fridays. When it used to be Spielman and I would sit down and watch tape with our producers and stuff. And I would appreciate it. It's almost like you get all your anger out on Fridays. You're not going to say, you know,

you don't want to embarrass any of these guys, but you sit there and you watch some of the tape and you're like, man, that's brutal. You beat up these guys and then you're like, wait,

what am I doing? These guys, he's a college player. He's better than I ever was at any point in my life. And, you know, I can't say that publicly,

but there's always funny stuff to say. Right, there's a job to do and then I think as all of us get older, like I remember when I first worked

with Van Pelt and he would never criticize anyone in college ever. And I'd be like, what the hell's wrong with Van Pelt? You know?

And we started that show. That was 10 years ago when we started that show. And, you know, I'm 32. When are you guys going to start it up again? Let's go.

Come on. He doesn't want to do it every day. There's no way he wants to do a radio show every day. And I don't think... It's only going to be that night gig.

I mean, it's going pretty well. I get it. Probably the best sports show on TV and all that. But he's back on the radio. I don't know. It would probably take a lot of money for me to do that five days a week. I don't know. I'm liking this not working five days a week thing right now.

So we'll see. We'll see. That's nice. Okay, so I have two... How's the weather? It days a week thing right now. So we'll see. We'll see. Okay, so I have two... How's the weather? It's 20 degrees here right now. I didn't want to drag this out because I know you have to run. But you know where I'm at.

You know it's always 71 degrees. And you know that we have a key code and a spare key waiting for you and your wife. I know. You can have it whenever you want. I got a call from friends the other day, or a text from friends there. Like, so no games this year? We didn't have one USC-UCLA game. Like, no LA this year.

And it's the first time in, I think, six, seven years of doing TV where we haven't had one game out there. What are you going to do? No Rose Bowl. We've got the Fiesta Bowl. We're doing the Orange Bowl on radio, the semifinals. We've got Santa Clara for the national championship. I can't complain about any of this stuff.

It's all awesome. But I miss L.A., man. I miss it. Wait, so you have the LSU Fiesta Bowl? Yeah. Oh. Yep. LSU, yeah.

All right. Wait a minute. Might be making some changes then to my plans. Because I've been thinking about going anyway. I mean, it's Scottsdale and the LSU people. Yeah, let's go. Yeah, all right. Give me...

We're in Miami for the O'Haring, so we get in on the 30th, but we're staying until the 2nd, so let's go out that night. All right. Sounds good.

Jan 1. No one will doubt. Yeah, Jan 1. I need... All I need is two sideline passes, so talk to the crew for me and set it up.

Fiesta Bowl loves me. Yeah, the Bowl people love Fiesta Bowl. All right. Okay, so look, I'm going to go rapid-fire five questions, put a little music bed under that. But before we do that, I just want to tell you the one-slash-one-and-a-half guys I like. Polite out of Florida is my guy. All right?

Ja'Kai Polite. I love him. He's a stud. I know you have him going 20. I don't really know what the real number is. There's some character stuff off the field, stuff to sort through that I'm working on. That does not surprise me a ton.

So he's my dude. And then I actually loved that you had him late here. And I'm sure it's a measurable thing or whatever. But there's another shocker SEC guy. Derek Brown at Auburn. Yeah. He should go earlier than that. There's so many defensive tackles, man.

No, that's nuts. Cody Williams. Right. No, I know. But when I got that pick, I think it was Minnesota, if I remember correctly. Yeah, it's similar. I was like, how the hell is he still on the board? And Christian Wilkins won two picks earlier,

but I think he has a chance to be one of the two or three best defensive tackles in this class. I really do. No, and you're right. It's absolutely a numbers game. So you're two for two, in my opinion, at least. Yeah, and the polite thing, I don't know if he really lost. Somebody said he came into this year, in my opinion, at least. him as an outside linebacker who would stand up a little bit. You know what I mean? I think I'm hoping I'm not making a mistake here, but I believe they kind of,

not that they moved him around a little bit, but it wasn't like he was playing in this, this thing where he was always upright. I don't think, I don't, I don't know. No, he was,

he was down, right? He left and right. He was all over the place. Right. Okay, good, good.

All right. I hope I wasn't losing my mind on that one. All right. So here we go. Five questions. Take as long as you want, but we try to go a little quick here. Give me your best GM front office right now in the NFL. Oh, geez. You're a jerk. I could have said worse. And then you get a phone call from him. So I didn't want to do that to you. Although I find that way more interesting. back to it pass okay pass okay

guy that hasn't worked out yet but you still like we all get guys wrong but somebody that it hasn't worked out for that you still feel like you might be lying to yourself a little bit but you're still holding out hope system change change of scenery coach all this different stuff pass coached, all this different stuff?

I probably should have said these to you ahead of time. I would say Leonard Floyd. Oh, all right. Well, Floyd's been okay, but you thought he should be better. He's been okay, but I really liked that pick at the time. I think he went ninth overall. Yeah, he was top ten. I thought he was going to be a huge difference maker. There's a handful of them, but he's one that comes to mind.

Okay, that's good. Because he's not terrible, but you expected a little bit more. He's not terrible at all. I mean, he's part of this defense that's really good. Okay, give me how many times you've been offered a job in an NFL front office in the last decade. I hesitate to say offered there were

two times where two or three times where I definitely could have pursued it and it very likely would have ended right but then they asked you how much you made and they were like oh my god can I have your job instead yeah and just and then other logistics

word got out how expensive McShea was okay two more what would you say to Jamarcus Russell what would you say to Jamarcus Russell if you were sitting on him not sitting on him that'd be weirder you are on a flight

you're next to each other and then Jamarcus Russell sitting next to you what would you talk to him about what would you talk to him about? What would you open up with? Honestly? Yeah. No lie. I just, I would work.

You would work. I just watched it. Yeah, I literally have nothing to say to him. That's a better, that's an even better answer. So you would start watching, you couldn't start watching film though, because then he'd be like, oh, hey, you like football? What would you say?

I don't even think he'd be interested. That's the problem. I don't even think that would move the needle at all. Okay, do you want to go back to the best GM front office? Which one do you trust the most on draft weekend? You don't have an answer for that? I think the Eagles are the best. You think the Eagles are the best? Wow. Yep. How about

that? Howie Roseman. Okay, final one. Joe Douglas. Andy Weidel. Okay. Alright. There's a connection. I think honestly the Vikings have been really, really good in the draft. They really have. They've been awesome, really good in the draft. If you study it, they really have.

They've been awesome, but they just can't win any freaking games. Look, their depth chart at the beginning of the year. If you look at their draft over the years, they've nailed it. They really have. They hit the Bridgewater one, and then he got injured. I mean, it was just bad luck. But I think the Vikings have been really good. The Eagles, I just have the utmost respect for Joe and Andy and those guys.

Okay. I would have said the Ravens before. They have so many guys that have moved in and out of that organization, and I love a lot of the guys that are still there. I really do, but that organization has transitioned a lot in the last few years. Last one, does your wife like me? Yeah. Yeah, she actually, she was asking about you recently.

All right, cool. I mean, I think she likes you a lot more now that you're on a different coast. No, I'm joking. No, look, I've been to Boston twice in the last week, and look, I didn't harass you. That really doesn't have much to do with my wife. It's just I've got two little kids that are almost three and almost five. I like kids. I would have come over.

We could have done a really laid-back adult. A play date, bud? A play date? Yeah, I'll find it. I'll find a kid. There's a lot of podcast listeners that have kids. I'll just find a kid. Next time I'm in Boston, I'll find a kid, and I'll just come over with him. All right? Perfect.

Yeah, we'll go play. Perfect. All right. You're the best. You can see Tom McShay's first. Five more years. I'll be out of the weeds. Five more years.

All right. You only have about five more mock drafts between. You know, you'll have about 10 between now and the actual draft, right? Oh, no. Five is about right. Five. Okay. All right. Sounds good't know. Five is about right. Five. Okay. All right.

Sounds good. Later. All right, bro. Later. Okay. That's Tom McShay again. Check out that mock draft up on ESPN.com. Rapid fire NFL stuff, although Kirk Cousins is not rapid fire in a second.

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unless there's something else that's overwhelming to do. We're not going to have any college football for this one, so this will be a single threat. I apologize. I guess I could do more on people wanting to span the playoff. I'm going to give it another week. I'm going to make some more phone calls, call around. But at times when I think that people in charge are so unlike us, and that's true sometimes, there are so many times too where they're just like us. And some of these complaints now, the preferred treatment of the SEC and that, you know, this is ridiculous. Like you're the guys that expanded to four. Okay. Conference presidents, you realize you guys did this. So like, what'd you think was going to happen? Did you not know how the numbers worked

on this? So now they're going to expand it to eight or maybe expanded eight after, by the way, they've told us for years and Bill Hancock said, then they're going to expand it to eight. Never going to happen. Wait till the new TV deal is up. Those things are so easy to fix and change and say, hey, we want to add more content and guess who would buy it? Everybody would buy it up and they make even more money. So if it goes to eight, I'm not going to have a huge problem with it, but I just thought some of the stuff that I'd read about reaction-wise, the motivation behind it being like, wait a minute, we're getting left out? How did this happen? Have you heard of Notre Dame? They've been around a while.

And if they're good enough, they get to take one of the spots. Wait a minute. This doesn't seem very good. We're the Big Ten. We were left out twice. Hey, we're the Pac-12. As Pac-12, hi, I'm Larry Scott. Yes, calling for the Pac-12.

Are we not eligible for the playoff? I don't know. Did I miss something in some of the stuff that we signed off on? So anyway, if that happens, great. All right, a couple NFL, great. All right. A couple NFL thoughts here. The Pat Mahomes no-look pass in their win against Baltimore. I was going to be that guy on Twitter when I saw the angle from behind. Like, are we doing this again?

Because there are so many times on social media and life in general where we want a story to be true so bad we don't even care if the story isn't true and we love doing that the harden highlights are always my favorite ones james harden pushes a guy off he falls down everybody goes oh like we're in an and one mixtape and then we demand that he retire immediately and then harden travels and hits a step back and everybody goes nuts and then every now and then you go like it was dude he's an offensive foul like if we're gonna if the other guy's dead for life now can we point out that it was an offensive foul can we do that and then it's like now you're a wet blanket or you don't like to do any of this stuff wet blankets are are so unpopular, by the way.

So when I saw the Mahomes thing, I go, are we doing this again? I don't know that he's not looking. I can't see his eyes. He easily could have had his head turned and kind of looking to the left and then made that throw. And then NFL films, I retweeted it. Ben Volan had an NFL writer

where you could see his eyes and it's a lot more than looking off of safety. You can see, and then yes, if you want to get real technical about it, at one point he does look over, but I'm telling you, I've never seen that before. I just haven't. I mean, has someone done it? I'm sure maybe someone has done it, but there are throws every week with Mahomes that are just, they're throws that aren't supposed to happen. So if you want to be an absolute stickler on the no look there, because he does take a peek at the very end from that angle, I'm like, I'm so glad I didn't do the other thing being like, how do we know this is a

no look when it was about as close to it as I've ever seen the other throw where he throws kind of a sidearm deal down the left sideline for a short gain that throws stupid. And then, and I mean that as a compliment, then the throw to Hill, where he throws it back to the middle of the field, which is what every single, every time it's thrown, the Sam Darnold throw in his first game against the Lions where he threw it back to the middle of the field, and everybody in the world knows the rule.

You can't throw it back to the middle of the field. It's going to be picked and makes Darnold look like, oh, this is going to be a disaster. And then that's when Darnold was going to be the MVP of the league and then it didn't work out. But Mahomes got away with it. And I don't know if that's Mahomes being special or getting lucky, but when there's four or five throws in this game against Baltimore, which is the number two defense in the league, he's just stupid. I'm sorry to keep saying stupid over and over again, but I'm just, I'm blown away by the throws. I'm blown away what kind of special arm talent

this kid has. It's like a pitcher that has three dominant pitches. And then, oh, by the way, do you know he throws a sick knuckleball? And I don't know if he's going to be MVP. I don't know if the Chiefs are going to win enough with that defense, but I wouldn't pick New England to go into Kansas City to win a playoff game at this stage when New England, and it's not just because of how badly they looked in the final play against Miami, but it's pretty clear that this version of New England is not nearly as good as other versions of New England. And I pointed that out with the losses, the lopsided losses they had. Yeah, right. In this season, I pointed it out, what, 10 points or more, three losses in the same season.

Hasn't happened in a Brady season with the Patriots since 2005. Speaking of Baltimore, Flacco is not getting his job back, and that's okay. Now, you could state that Lamar Jackson hype, because this is another thing that we do in the media. What's happened? They've won three games in a row, and then an overtime loss to arguably the best team in the AFC. So you feel like, man, there's a little something going on there with Lamar.

A little spark. He's given them a little life, only because they've won three out of the last four games. He has, in that game against Kansas City, by the way, 36 yards in the first half total. He hasn't completed more than 14 passes in any of these four games since he's taken over. He hasn't thrown for more than 180 yards. He's got three touchdowns, three picks, but what he does have is some serious rushing totals. He had 26 carries in that win against

Cincinnati for 119, 11 for 71 and a touchdown against Oakland, 17 for 75 and a touchdown against Atlanta, and then 14 carries for 67 yards and no touchdowns in that loss against Kansas City. Now, Barnwell wrote a really extensive thing on all the rookie quarterbacks up on ESPN.com. I would urge you to read that immediately because it's really, really good.

We know that Baltimore's defense is really special. They're behind Chicago, who I should call Chicago's defense really special know that Baltimore's defense is really special. They're behind Chicago, who I should call Chicago's defense really special. And Baltimore's at number two is special this year. But the gap between Chicago and Baltimore is the difference between Baltimore in the middle of the pack in the league. So if we're going 32 teams, Chicago's one. The gap between them, if you look at the defensive efficiency ratings, the DVOA stuff, which is really good, and they have a weighted one as well, but if you just go to the overall ones,

there's about a 13% gap between Chicago and Baltimore. Baltimore, to find that next difference between them and a team that's that far behind them, it'd be the Jets or Tennessee, who are 17th, 18th, maybe even, you know, you put Pittsburgh there at 16th. That's how great Chicago is compared to the number two team and looking again at Baltimore to how far they would have to go down the list of ranked teams to have that kind of gap between them and that next team. So with Lamar, though, we know that Baltimore runs it a lot.

We know that they're running him like way too much, and he's not been super accurate. And he also has been really bad in the red zone. He's fumbled the ball a lot too. So it's not just because Lamar's provided a spark. I don't know if he's going to be good. I don't. I was always worried about the accuracy stuff.

I know how dynamic he is as a runner, but that stuff doesn't hold up. You're still going to have to beat teams from the pocket. But I'm 100% okay with Lamar keeping this job over Flacco. They made the right move with this because Flacco, since that Superbowl run, has never been that guy. Flacco is clearly the dude that comes to your 10-year reunion. Maybe you didn't love him in college, but he was sort of a secondary, dare I say, tertiary friend. And he was around, he was in the mix, but then he shows up a secondary, dare I say, tertiary friend. And he was around,

he was in the mix, but then he shows up to this 10-year reunion. He's in a little bit better shape. All weekend, his jokes have perfect timing. He's picking up the tabs. There may even be a line when you're back at your reunion and you're thinking, oh, we're out. And then he's like, actually, I own a small piece of this place. Don't worry. We're going to go in through the back, Goodfellas style. The girl he shows up with smokes any girl that he had ever dated while they were in college. And you leave going, this is amazing. Like this is what happened to Doug. Like Doug is so good. He's on a tear Thursday through Sunday. And then he wasn't even on the wedding list. He wasn't going to make the cut for a lot of wedding guest lists. You start inviting him to these weddings.

You're thinking long-term. Doug's going to be in the mix. We're going to do Napa with him, perhaps. And then the more you're around Doug, he makes out with your aunt. He says Santa isn't real in front of your four-year-old. And you're like, Doug still sucks. Whatever Doug was, reunion weekend was not who Doug was before and certainly not who Doug was after.

And that's Joe Flacco's football career. So him not getting his gig back, I'm totally fine with. One of the other quick, quick hitters here, would Jerry Jones ever get credit for anything? I'm trying to think of somebody else in sports and hell life. You hit me up at Ryan Aversillo on Twitter. If Jerry Jones, nobody thought the Cowboys going to win the division this year. I don't think so.

Maybe Will came, but is Jerry Jones so disliked because he's arrogant and he's brash and it's the Dallas thing. And I don't know. I mean, look, he's just, he's in charge. He's the most powerful guy really in the NFL. He's more powerful than commissioner is. So that's going to bum people out. And then people that aren't Cowboys fans are tired of every major media entity talking

about the Cowboys more than you think we should. And that's fine. I get it. Uh, but could anyone ever get to the point with Jerry, where they go, you know, who's actually a little bit better at this than we think is Jerry Jones? I don't think anybody would even do that. If the Cowboys won the Super Bowl, I don't know. Would we do that? Would we play the results on that and be like, you know who really started to figure out this last year was Jerry Jones? And I just, I feel like there's all these things with Jones.

Dak Prescott, he got lucky with that. Dak is in that middle group where it changes every single week what he really is. But you know what they're going to do? They're probably going to pay him because it's really hard to find that next guy. And we're going to get to that in a second, my bigger make a ruling Kirk Cousins segment here. But I don't know if Jerry Jones would ever get credit for anything. Bud Selig was somebody that reminded me of this. And I was trying to figure someone out because Bud Selig, despite growing revenues, which again, you know, whenever these commissioners go look at revenue growth while it was me, it's the same as a real estate agent before the market crash in 2008.

Are you great as your real estate agent or just more people getting approved for stuff? And if TV is expanding the way it has and live entertainment, what is more important than sitting in front of a live broadcasted game? Is it because the revenue is up because you're a genius? Or did you just happen to be commissioner when every other sports league was killing it with their television contracts? Look at baseball's contract. Look at basketball's absurd.

When the NFL does their new one, that one's going to be nuts. Every single college football conference, okay? So I've been over all this stuff before, but I always felt like Seelig took, he was just an unpopular guy. So I felt like Se Selig could do anything. If he did anything positive, people still wouldn't care.

But the thing is, I don't really want to stick up for Selig because I actually don't think he did that great of a job as commissioner. The more you realize that he was just treating the entire league to hook up his buddies with teams when they became available and the Red Sox when it worked out, the Dodgers when it didn't work out. Others are, you know, two, you could debate it. But there's just a lot of stuff where he turned it into kind of his own little thing. And then when you look at his pension, you're like, you're going to be kidding me. So I'm not going to sit there

and stick up for ceiling, but I would ask you when everybody makes the late and Vander Esch joke and go, Oh, are you seriously drafting the linebacker for the white linebacker from Boise? Like, are you kidding me? And he's awesome. I just think there are the little things that Jerry Jones does that are better than people think, yet more people think that they're a total failure and that it's really all his fault. I don't know. And maybe their defense is just better now they've won some games and I wouldn't have done that segment a month ago. Okay. This is the thing that I really wanted to do. Make a ruling. So you know what that means? Exactly. Okay. The Kirk Cousins thing here in a second, but first millions of men across the globe suffer from textile dysfunction. We talked about this at the top of the podcast, leading to poor performance in their dress shirts. Thankfully, Mizzen and Main has developed a cure. Their dress shirts are made with performance-driven fabrics that are designed to look great all day and require no ironing or dry cleaning. Mizzen and Main dress shirts provide all day comfort with built-in four-way stretch

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If you experience your dress shirt looking great for longer than four hours, good job. You're wearing Mizzen and Main. Mizzen and Main look great longer. I want to talk about Kirk Cousins. I spent a lot of time on this. Too much. But he's now somebody that makes a lot of money and it's because he actually became a real free agent as a quarterback which doesn't happen but he's somebody that was offered i would say confusing slash misleading contracts in the past and now that we saw the vikings look terrible on monday football against seattle where they got a garbage touchdown there at the end and everybody's starting to put together this this resume how bad cousins record is against all these different scenarios and it's really bad and we'll get to it

because i have it i need to make a ruling on who's been right through all this because even though i think and i'll get to all the specifics here trust me i've written it all down so i'm using it even if you don't want to hear it did Did Washington, as we watch Cousins maybe not be the guy we thought he could be, did Washington make the right call, or was Cousins right for bailing on this? And then maybe you can even throw a little three-way in there with the

Minnesota Vikings. So hit me with that sound effect one more time. Alright, perfect. So here's the beginning. The Cousins dilemma. Make a ruling. I was never a huge Kirk Cousins fan early on. Played bits of three seasons during backup. Hey, RG3's hurt again, duty. And then in the fourth year, he put together a pretty good year there in 2015. I did think he was a little turnover prone prior to that. And it was a really tough spot for him

considering that RG3 is the one that they moved all these picks up for, and he was super popular right away, and everybody loved him, and then they go, oh man, now you're losing, stop doing Subway ads, and now you tweet, and you're terrible on social media, and now we don't like you anymore, which is only because when you're winning, it's great, and when you're losing, it isn't. So if you go back and look at those years with Cousins, that first year when he started all 16 games in 2015, 29 touchdowns, 11 picks, the QBR was about 72, completed 70% of the passes. They're really pretty strong numbers.

And so during the radio show era for me, I'm going, man, wow. I didn't really know if I believed in this guy. Hard to argue with those numbers. So that means in 2016, he's up. And if you go and look at all those numbers through So that means in 2016, he's up. And if you go and look at all those numbers through Washington, they're actually going to be better. If you're on the fence about Kirk Cousins and you go back and look at pro football reference, you're going to look at those numbers and go, you know what? He was a little bit better than I thought. And sometimes

numbers can set us straight. And sometimes they can also be misleading. Like I'll look at numbers for some players and go, I don't care how good these all say that he is or what this means here. It didn't feel that way in the moment. He never felt like somebody that's maybe as good as the numbers show. And I think that's always what the Redskins front office and Bruce Allen and ownership, Dan Snyder, were saying. They're going, hey, look, we grabbed him. Obviously, we liked him enough to draft him. But do we really want to have to pay this guy that much? And the way I think quarterbacks work, it's a lot like waterfront property is that you can think the price is absurd, but there's only so many of them. And if you have to have it,

you pay what the price is. And for quarterbacks, you can't go, well, this guy makes 20 million. We think you're a little bit less of a player than he is. So we're going to pay you 18. It actually doesn't seem to work that like comps. It just, Hey, are you a starter? Yup. Okay. Well, are you up? What's our franchise situation? Do you have the leverage? Do we have any of the leverage? So, um, you know, we'll just go ahead and pay you that 20 plus million, which is what I think will happen with Dak Prescott in Dallas, unless they get really, really creative. So there's my backdrop to all this. So in 2016,

So there's my backdrop to all this. So in 2016, he was going to be tagged for $20 million. The Redskins offered him a $16 million salary for 2016, and then $24 million guaranteed overall for what would be $24 million of a two-year deal. And Cousins is like, wait a minute. So you want me to take a $4 million pay cut this year to have 4 million more guaranteed over what I'm already going to make? That sounds pretty stupid. And guess what? Kirk Cousins isn't stupid. And it was a stupid deal. And it was kind of like, hey, we're going to give you more guaranteed money, but we want you to take

a pay cut based on what the franchise tag is. And as I was talking with Mick Shea, you can do the real simple math of, well, it's football. You want that guaranteed money. Most of these quarterbacks, even Teddy Bridgewater is going to play again. So you can't really look at it that way, and I don't think I would look at it that way, and certainly Kirk Cousins felt the exact same way. So in 2016, he has an okay season.

They're 8-7-1 after going 9-7 the year before that. The touchdowns are down. Interception's only up by one. The QBR and all that stuff dips a little. But it was still, okay, almost a 5,000-yard season. The guy threw it 600 times. All right, now it's two years of this. And you gave me kind of the one-year-we're-not-sure offer.

I've proven for two years. And now I want my money. Okay, two things. NFL.com reported back in 2017 that there were two different offers made to Cousins, and only different because of when they were offered. So the first report that I went through this morning was that it was a five-year deal worth just shy $110 million with $53 million in guarantees. Now, I'll tell you which numbers to pay attention to there and which not to pay attention to in a second. They met again, and that's when I think Bruce Allen flew out to visit with Cousins and his father, and they were going to do this other thing.

Hey, we want you. Oh, I want here. And apparently, according to NFL.comcom reading this stuff they made the same off it was the same offer now could we get into semantics and say some money was moved here and base was going to be this and this was going to be a roster thing and guaranteed versus do with signing and all these different things sure but the basic parameters of five years and the guaranteed money i'm talking about real guaranteed money was still only 53 million. So Cousins is going, all right, but in 2017, I'm going to be franchised at 24 million.

And in 2018, the franchise tag is 34 million. And if you want to transition tag me, that's 29 million. If you did the two tags, that's what the guaranteed money was being offered here. So it was like, wait a minute, why would I do five years, one 10, but only $53 million in guarantees when I'm going to make more than $53 million if I just say no and you have to franchise me this year and next year and a little bit less if you transition me? Or I could actually just get to free agency because you're not going to want to franchise me in 2018 for $34 million because that cap hit by itself really very hard for a team to work around. And the reason why I think Cousins turned this down is that Derek Carr, prior to this offer for five years with $53 million and guaranteed, had done his own five-year deal for

$125 and $70 million guaranteed. And Matthew Stafford had done a five-year deal for $125 million and $70 million guaranteed. And Matthew Stafford had done a five-year deal for $135 million and $92 million guaranteed. And by the way, a little guaranteed money for you. This is guaranteed, meaning practical guarantees on the SportTrack website. Excuse me, SpotTrack website. I think I always thought it was SportTrack. But there you go. Matt Ryan, 100. Aaron Rodgers, 98.7. Matthew Stafford, 92. Andrew Luck, 87. Kirk Cousins with a new deal with Minnesota that we'll mention here in a second, 84. Garoppolo, good luck trying to figure that one out, 74 million. And ironically, the Redskins gave Alex Smith the seventh most guaranteed or the seventh biggest guaranteed money at 71 million.

biggest guaranteed money at 71 million. Now, this is all very new, but Cousins kind of knew this. And really, I've always thought if, let's say, Mahomes were five years in this kind of player and became a real free agent, like an NBA free agent, he'd get over 100 million guaranteed, no question. I think he would get a five to six year contract fully guaranteed. He would have a real fully guaranteed contract, but franchise tags prevent that. And then the fans still sit there and think, okay, we can never have fully guaranteed contract. If enough of these guys ever got to the open market, it actually would happen. And that's really kind of what happened with Kirk Cousins because it's all guaranteed. It's 84 million. So the Redskins, after he turned them down, got real disingenuous and issued a statement.

And I went off on this on my radio show to the point where it became like a video and people started tweeting it out because it wasn't that the number was wrong. It was that their approach on this was wrong. So Bruce Allen said, quote, on May 2nd, right after the draft, we make Kirk an offer that included the highest fully guaranteed amount upon signing for a quarterback in NFL history, $53 million. Well, that's not true. And it was about to be shattered by all these other contracts that were coming up. Now, if they didn't like him, and it's clear they didn't like him, that's fine, too. But they tried to tell the public, well, you know, look, Kirk, he turned down an offer, and we offered him more than anybody else.

Okay, that's not true. Because they were using the guaranteed total of $72 million for injury. Now, whenever you hear guaranteed for injury, immediately forget it because I thought that was really cool in the new CBA that contracts were guaranteed for injury for about five minutes until somebody pulled me aside and explained to me that used to work in a front office that said, yeah, but that's guaranteed for injury like Robert Edwards style. You're never going to play again type of stuff. And even he tried to make a comeback. Okay, so that is different than just,

oh, I got hurt, I'm done, but I get all my money, basketball, baseball style. That's not really what it is, and it sounds really good. So then the Redskins and Allen continued saying this deal would have made him the second highest paid player by average per year in NFL history, but despite our repeated attempts, we have not received any offer from Kirk's agent this year.

Kirk has made it clear that he prefers to play on a year-to-year basis. While we would have liked to work out a long-term contract before this season, we accept his decision. But this still wasn't true. It was really misleading. The initial guarantee was the 24 they already had to pay him, and the other guarantee on the lower end was 29 million. pay him. And the other guarantee in the lower end was $29 million. So he knew, Cousins knew, okay, fine, I'll take the one year at $24, and I'm going to make way more than the numbers you're even throwing out here once I actually get to real free agency, unless you have to franchise me again at $34 or $29 million. So it didn't make any sense. It sounded like, hey, here's this $53 million guarantee. And you're like, dude, are you going to have to pay that to me unless I

absolutely go down my leg or I decide to retire and give Cousins, even And you're like, dude, are you going to have to pay that to me unless I absolutely go down my leg or I decide to retire and give Cousins, even if you don't like him, credit for betting on himself in this spot because that's exactly what he did. So then he gets 84 million from the Vikings. And the Redskins thing never works out. And like in sports, everywhere in life,

people really will kind of tell you without telling you how they feel about you. You know, she doesn't text you back. She doesn't want to talk to you. You know, this, this stuff isn't complicated. And for you girls listening out there, I can't understand what's his deal. How come he doesn't text me back? He doesn't text you back because he doesn't care. It's not any more complicated than that. If you don't get promoted at work for 10 years, work doesn't like you a lot. You know, like, and if the Redskins are going to tag you for one year and then not really give you the deal you want, ask you to sort of take a pay cut, and then tag you again and kind of pretend that they hooked you up

when they didn't really do anything more than they already had to do, and you just wanted them to give you the market deal that you expected that other teams had given to their incumbent quarterbacks that hadn't even made it to true free agency. Then there's part of me that actually in the process of trying to figure out who I want to rule for here, where I respect the Redskins going, hey, we think you're all right, but we don't think you're great. And that's kind of how I felt about them. So I didn't love that the Redskins, trust me, I trashed them when they did this.

I didn't love how they were trying to pull this Houdini act on what the numbers were here, because most of us do sort of fall for it. Donovan McNabb contract. I don't know. Can I rule for Cousins, but also respect the Redskins for doing what they're doing? Because here's Cousins' stats. Primetime games, 5-13. Versus winning teams, 4 4 and 24 record versus winning teams this year 0 and 5 career road record 12, 23 and 2 career record on Monday Night Football 0 and 7

I always think there's ways that you can do this stuff and stack it up and use some different things specifically the Aaron Rodgers not good in close games stat that flies around all the time that tries to prove that he sucks

late in games which is not true that's a lot of bad stuff on the resume. So here's the deal. I'm ruling in favor of Kirk Cousins against the Redskins, even though I kind of respect the Redskins said, you know, we just don't think he's that good, but they try to disrespect us the whole time. I respect Cousins for sticking up for himself, betting on himself and getting that 84 million. And honestly, I got a rule in favor of the Vikings for doing it despite that resume. Because you know what? That's what the market was.

He would have gotten it from the Jets. I think Denver had interest in him. I think there are more teams that would have paid him that much money because these guys, they don't even get to free agency, even the ones that are kind of average and have some terrible, terrible resume stats. Okay. I knew you knew I couldn't let you guys down here. Please rate, review, and most importantly, subscribe to the dual threat podcast. We're doing the NBA stuff with Simmons coming up here in just over a month. So we may keep this going. So let us know.

Leave a review and let us know if you want us to keep this thing going through the draft. All right. Here it is. This week's Chris Fowler trivia. In 17, it's Treaty of Paris.