The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Trent Dilfer on Brady Panic, Saints, and Rams; Plus, QB Tiers Through the Lens of Pointless Social Media Posts | Dual Threat With Ryen Russillo (Ep. 17)

Episode Date: December 19, 2018

Russillo shares his active NFL QB tiers before talking with Super Bowl champion and analyst Trent Dilfer about Tom Brady's season, Aaron Rodgers in a new system, Rams, Saints, Patrick Mahomes II, and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

okay back uh settled here on the west coast now for what's been about a week because i taped on thursday i feel like i just got here kyle i feel like i was just here and that's because it was thursday and then tuesday so i don't know tuesday worked we got trend dilfer he's gonna stop by and before we do any of that stuff, I have this thing with quarterback tiers in the NFL where I'm going to try to compare it to content on social media. Yeah, I mean,

I don't know. We'll see. I can't wait. Well, we'll see. You might be able to because I feel like I'm 80% there. Not sure yet. Maybe I shouldn't admit any of those things. But you know what gets you 100% there? That's right. A cold freaking glass of Belvedere. Produced in one of the world's longest running distilleries, Belvedere vodka is the world's finest all-natural vodka.

Part of a 600-year-old Polish vodka-making tradition, Belvedere is made with non-GMO Polish rye, pure water, and no additives. Can't you just see it right now. It's just so clear. Anyway, uh, recognized for quality Belvedere was named the ISC world vodka producer of the year in 2015, 2016, and 2017, the Alabama perhaps of the vodka world. So,. So this reminds me of a story. I don't know. I feel like I don't know if I'll always be able to tell these stories

because I don't want to. Is it the content or you just don't want to keep doing it? Well, there's an expectation that I have to, like, pull this off every time. But then it's like, okay, do you want me to tell you about the time we got into a fight with a biker gang who wouldn't leave the bar? That has nothing to do with Belvedere. You know? Maybe they weren't drinking Belvedere and they're just angry on some whiskey yeah no no it was pretty funny it was it was bad though but it was really weird because we had and wasn't

because like i was some tough guy but we had a guy who was really he was pretty tough like all state college wrestler type of thing and they were kind of not real biker gang guys it was vermont they like came to a college bar and they wouldn't leave us alone. And we're like, all right, we're closing. And all right, you got to go. And no one wants to talk to you. And on and on and on it went.

And then finally, like it went down. And, you know, I always got punched in the face, always. And then my shirt got ripped. And the guy was like, you know, you guys made the list. You know, you you know you guys made the list you know you guys you guys oh you're on you're in the crosshairs of satan's children we're like dude and i i had a good line i said i think i can get that same vest at the mall man and um that was it and we never saw those guys again i hope belvedere doesn't mind that one and you know what we'll see what kind of feedback

we get i certainly didn't mind it well'm sure you're not really who I'm worried about here in this one. But you know what? If those guys, you're right. I think that's a good way to bring it back together. If you just sit down and enjoy a delicious Belvedere cocktail, a nice Belvedere vodka, nice and smooth,

refined, that Polish deal that we were talking about before, and these guys weren't drinking responsibly, so you know, it all kind of comes back around. refine that Polish deal that we were talking about before. And these guys weren't drinking responsibly. So, you know, it all kind of comes back around. There's no way they're going to like that one. All right. So we'll wait.

We'll wait to see what kind of feedback we get on that one before we ever do any of those again. But maybe they're going to like it because it's just the longest pre-roll I've ever done. Okay. Here's where I'm going with this. You know how much I love talking about all the different quarterbacks and all that stuff and kind of it's just the constant updating of who's good and what's going on. And I've done this in the past where I've done this for he talked to about 60 different NFL sources, GMs, coaches, the whole deal, and put it together. And I felt what's kind of cool about this is that we're in a real transitional phase of where the quarterbacks are going to be. Because the real certain guys at the top, and I think it's about three deep, there's some turmoil there. But we also have some new guys that have been incredible. And then guys that we thought

were going to be in that next tier one group have struggled recently. So it's really all over the place. And then towards the last few weeks of the regular season, like we have in front of us now with the NFL, you have teams that are going, you know what, we're ready. And you're going to start seeing some of these guys on their second careers. And that's a Blake Bortles, a Jameis Winston. Mariota's not there yet, but we'll get to all that stuff. So I have five different tiers of the current quarterbacks and I'm going to relate it to how we all consume and react to certain parts of social media. So my formula is far more body of work than what's happened immediately.

Yes, this is not the best time to do it for Breeze or for Goff, but that's just not the kind of guy I am. I'm stubborn in these rankings. I'm stubborn for putting you into the first tier. I would never do what Simmons did and come on and say Saquon Barkley's the best running back of all time six weeks into his career because I just don't do that. I think that's how you end up making monumental mistakes on how good or bad of a player you think somebody is. So it's still in my head. Look, it's my ranking. I have body of work far outweighing what's happened the last few weeks. And having said all that, two of the top three guys that were always in that group, this is a really bad time to do it for them, but I'm going to put them

in there anyway. So tier one is the puppy video feed of quarterbacks and that everyone that has their top five group always has Brady Rogers and Breeze. Almost no one complains about it. Yes, there's a guy that still he's a Jets fan and he thinks that Brady's a system dude, which is the dumbest thing ever because there's been about six or seven different variations of the system that they've run. And there's a slight irony in that I'm not the biggest dog guy. That's been well documented. I'll give you the aside. My father, Bob, the humble carpenter before he was a big time builder, we used to go on estimates all the time when I was a little kid and I was a little scared five-year-old kid. And I would show up to

strangers' houses all the time for different work estimates to price out a brick walk or a back deck, and I would get mopped by strange dogs all the fucking time, and I hated it. And then when I got to college, my roommates decided, hey, let's have a bunch of dogs live in the house, and the dogs are out of control. So Ryan's not your biggest dog guy, but I just want to make sure it doesn't sound like I'm a Nazi here either, because whenever I've brought up, they're like, oh my god, he doesn't like dogs. I'm doing the dog the favor. I realized that a dog gives you that, that moral support, that loyalty that maybe we don't get in human relationships. The dog always has your back in ways that you're maybe your spouse doesn't. I get what dogs can do for people. Okay. But I'm just, I'm doing the dog a favor. As I've said a million times, I know that when

I'm lonely, a dog would probably make me happier, but I don't want to put it in a kennel when I travel all the time. Okay. So my top quarterback tier wildly derailed into a dog segment, but that's okay. Cause I think people love dogs and you probably liked that segment because I'll see a puppy video where the puppy turns its head like a quarter turn to the left and people lose their freaking minds over it. And then I'll go, oh, whose feet is this? Oh, 120,000 retweets? Is that the only dog in the world that turns its neck slightly to the side

when its name is mentioned out loud? And that's what I think we, for the most part, have with this top group of quarterbacks, that we know how special Rodgers, Brady, and Breeze all have been. Yes, Brady hasn't been as good this year, as I pointed out a couple of weeks ago. And the fact that red zone stuff's a joke and the fact that they couldn't, other than one play, do anything against the Steelers defense at beginning up a ton of points, especially late in games over the last few weeks, it isn't even really like ready for Steelers team on and on and on and on and on.

The point is, is that if somebody were on a TV show or somebody's on a radio show or a podcast or two different podcasts and says, you know who I think is really good? Rogers, Brady and Breeze. And that's kind of where it starts. Most people are willing to accept that. Most people don't, when they see a dog video jumping onto a bed, excited, and then running back out of the door and everybody laughing. A lot of times, no matter, the internet is always capable of anything. You don't see a lot of guys quote tweeting saying, whatever, stupid dog. You just don't see that very much. Okay, so that's tier one. Tier two is almost the same thing, but it's just pictures of kids. And that tier is Philip Rivers,

Ben Roethlisberger, Russell Wilson. I'm just not sure yet about Deshaun Watson, although statistically it looks like he's back up in that group. Maybe too soon for me. It's too soon for Mahomes, but Mahomes very well could be ahead of all of these guys. Really, if I see another half a year of this, to say that Mahomes halfway through his second season could very well be the best active quarterback in the NFL,

I don't even think that's an impossibility. I just don't want to do Mahomes fourth. So maybe Mahomes is in this group. That's fine. Maybe Watson is in there too, but there's still a little bit more debate about it because we're actually nicer to dogs than we are kids. Because even though nobody wants to really shit on a picture of another kid's or another person's kids, shit on a picture of another kid's or another person's kids you know you do it okay most of you listening aren't really dumping on anybody's dogs but i know some of you have dumped on people's kids i know that you've sent a text to me like have you seen craig's daughter oh my god you know and then craig doesn't know it's his daughter all he sees is he sees something a version of love that we don't have because that's his he created it and so if somebody says hey I

think Rivers like I know for years I used to always defend Rivers I'd say you know what I actually think Rivers is probably better than Roethlisberger and Eli but I know I'm not allowed to do that because of that and then it would turn back and be like dude what are you kidding me what has he ever won so we're a little bit more allowed to do that because of that. And then it would turn back and be like, dude, what are you kidding me? What has he ever won? So we're a little bit more willing to criticize that second group, even if it feels like most people at this stage, like Philip Rivers is going to retire. He'll be retired for three years,

and TV shows are still going to be on far extremes of what Philip Rivers' legacy is. He's going to get fitted for the Hall of Fame, and there'll be people in the front row being like, I don't know. I don't know if I really see it. So that's a really good group to be in, but it's another group that is challenged a little bit more often. Okay, the third group, and this is the deepest group. This is really what the game is, because as I've said, almost every single sports argument, and you can adapt this to other things in life too, but for my expertise, the sports argument is that most of them live in this neighborhood where if you wait around long enough, you're going to have a week that backs your opinion.

And that's Cam Newton, who wasn't good in that Monday night against the Saints, and it could be because he's hurt, or it could be some of those things that It's not only him being hurt because of that shoulder hit in that Steelers game, which was vicious, and he had this really good run earlier with the new offense. It looked like, okay, we're seeing something here from Cam. But other than that Super Bowl run and where he was statistically incredible in the second half of that season and won the MVP and deserved it, that was the outlier year. And I am somebody that's watched Cam enough to go,

I don't know, there's just, there's certain boxes that aren't checked enough for him, or at least for me to go, okay, he's in this group with these top 10 guys. And the dumb thing about the top 10, top five and all that stuff is that I was arguing with somebody the other night, and really we probably had Cam within two or three spots of each other's rankings where they're at in the NFL. Maybe it's nine, maybe it's 12. We get too caught up in that kind of stuff. But if I am – I'm not saying I'm anti-Cam, but let's just say – okay, let's just say I'm the most anti-Cam person ever, okay, because I've been accused of that far more often than I've been accused of being pro-cam.

If I'm anti-cam, what do I say? Well, like all those things. Oh, you know, can't read the blitz in the last play, most important play of the game. You know, has a little too many times where he's thinking about himself before he's thinking about clock, game, and situation, all those different things. Or, you may, and i don't know if it's going to happen this year because he's hurt but if you were pro cam the beginning they'd be like you know what nobody's is physically imposing nobody can do the things he's doing and he doesn't ever have that many weapons on and on and on and like i know what your pro arguments would

be just as you have memorized my anti-arguments and every week in this 17 week season we're both going to have weeks where we are convinced we are right. And that social media content is any political person tweeting about the economy based on whether or not they like the president or they hate the president. And in this group, it's Matt Ryan, who actually is probably having the second best season of his career, but the team isn't good, so no one cares. Andrew Luck's in this group. Stafford's in this group.

Jared Goff's in this group. Kirk Cousins, Derek Carr, Trubisky, Alex Smith, Dalton. And I tell you, I don't think anybody ever sticks up for Dalton, and maybe they shouldn't. How many boys of yours are like, you know who I really dig is Andy Dalton? I bet you never have heard that in your group. And that's how I always kind of think of all these conversations.

Do you have one friend? I mean, and again, he can't be a Cincinnati fan, okay? You can't be like Homer guy who's always hoping for the best version of everything you have in front of you. I want Chargers fan that goes, you know, I think you could be sneaky awesome

as Andy Dalton. I don't know that anybody ever says that, but that group is so deep because Matt Ryan's going to have a week where he doesn't move the ball. Matt Ryan's biggest impression this year was probably that opening night game against Philadelphia where people were wondering if he was going to make it through the season and he was hurt. But that may have been the only impression you've had a Matt Ryan and you haven't realized how injured the rest of the team has been. And then you go, oh, Matt Ryan. Oh, yeah, talking him up again.

MVP, my ass. Guy sucks. Like, well, actually, wait a minute. Andrew Luck's the same thing. Oh, you guys, all you do is the excuses, the excuses. He's never done this. He's never done that. Okay, well, now the Andrew Luck crowd has had a really good run with this thing.

And it reminds me of all the finance tweets. Because depending on what the Dow is doing, and it's all over the place right now, if you're not paying attention to those things, if you are the anti-Trump guy, and I've seen these tweets, as soon as the Dow tanks, which it has been here, it's a real Cam Newton run the last few weeks, you just would tweet out, thought this guy was supposed to be good for the economy. I saw one political reporter who I didn't know was a total hack,

who tweeted out like the exact timeframe of when the Dow was at its worst and then did a comp with like to the week of Obama's first, however many months plus weeks of his presidency, and then argued, even though we've had incredible runs for the Dow here, but, you know, again, it's what have you done for me lately, but, I don't know, breaking news, I bet the Dow goes back up again too at some point, and then goes back down, and then I don't know, okay? But he tweeted out this whole thing where he basically was waiting for the perfect time to show it,

like, hey, both have been in office at this point, the exact same time. And despite all the talk about economic growth with Trump, boom, boom. OK, well, where were you? Where were you in July? Where were you back when this thing was on a tear? Were you tweeting nothing? And if you were anti-Trump during the run of the Dow, you'd be saying, wow, dude, new tech, emerging markets. It's not really him. I mean,

he shouldn't be getting the credit. Just like Andrew Luck. Because if Andrew Luck is playing well now and you've hated Luck this whole time and different people were your guy. And I remember a day when racism was Mark Furman and not having Andrew Luck ranked higher than Cam Newton on your magical podcast quarterback tier show, you would say, well, look, he's finally got a defense. No wonder they're doing all right. That stuff's all the same.

Those are still week-to-week guys. Goff, at one point, felt like he had crossed over that hurdle. Now, he's back in this little stretch run. Alex Smith, again, he's kind of that 15-year guy where I can't believe we're still debating who these dudes are

when they've given us all this evidence. And then there's kind of the no list. The no list is this. It's something where even if you feel like you want to back it, you don't want to, at least not publicly. And on social media, that was Matt Damon's first statement on

Me Too. Now, I understand how sensitive Me Too is, but when Matt Damon actually said what he said, where he suggested, hey, what we have to make sure we pay attention to here is that not everybody, not everyone is the same, not everything is the same, and he got destroyed. He got destroyed to the point where he had to walk that back immediately and make another statement. I'm even afraid of bringing it up months later and so when I think about Dak and I think about some of these guys that are probably on the no list Flacco Bortles Eli now at this point at no point do you ever want to even say publicly yeah you know what though I kind of like nobody's backing Eli anymore.

There's still Cowboys fans holding out hope for Dak. Nobody's backing Flacco anymore. I think that's such an important thing to remember in the Flacco-Lamarge. Not one person I feel like has backed Flacco. Now, could I find it? Sure. Okay, I could find it. But nobody would actually want to do it publicly because they'd be afraid

of the backlash. So no-ish is something that maybe you would say to someone privately and go, I don't know how I feel about this, but I'm really afraid of any of the backlash. So I'm just going to leave this one alone. And then there's the absolute no's. And those are the, you know what, Jameis is in that absolute no group. Eli's in that group. Josh Allen, it feels way too early. Tannehill's in that group. He's having arguably the worst year of his career, which is weird because if you go back and look at all the stats, Tannehill could really trick you into thinking he was actually better than he was. But I think that's where numbers, especially with quarterbacks

in today's era, can really screw you up because the better test would be, hey, when Tannehill played, was I ever afraid of him? Did I ever think, oh, no, I'm going to have to go against Tannehill? The answer is probably never. You probably never had. There was that one time where it looked like maybe he was turning the corner and running some tempo and all this stuff. Yeah, you know, he's really great.

Just, you know, scheming him up. No, he's in the no group. He'll be on a new team. You know, who knows? Maybe one of these guys will resign. And that's the kind of no content where nobody is on board. It's the reverse of the puppy tweet. And that is the person that can't hold off on their political statement the day somebody dies. And it reminds me of one college professor the day that Barbara Bush died. And she said, quote, in a tweet, I'm happy the witch is dead.

Can't wait for the rest of her family to follow their demise. On and on and on. She was a professor. And here's the thing is she was bragging after the fact that she was going at everybody. It's such a trash move. And she was like, I have tenure. I make 100 grand. I'm not going to get fired.

And as late as last night, I was going through this, unless I screwed up the research, she wasn't fired. So she was only suspended, but they said it was, or it wasn't a suspension. It was to take a leave and she'd already put in for the leave. A sabbatical of sorts. Yeah. Yeah.

Thank you for the backup there. That's the kind of content. If I did an all Jameis excuse pod, if I did a, here's did a here's where the world is wrong about Bortles pod, I don't think that would actually go over that well, although Bortles has the second highest number of drops. I'm just kidding.

I have a rule with this. If the body has not chilled, let's not destroy that person on social media yet. And there's a few people that I despise that are public figures, but I'm not going to, the day they die, keep it real. Like when George Bush died and the AP feed had that awful tweet,

you're like, you know, are we so advanced as a society, or do we have to keep it so, and I look, nobody likes to keep it more real than I do. But when someone dies, is that really keeping it real? Or do you just suck as a person? I understand her political beliefs. I researched this whole thing. I understood, you know, she was upset about Barbara Bush and something she'd said, okay, fine. Let's, let's get the person to the ground first before we send out that kind of content. And if you were wondering if I missed one, I'm not going to do Nick Mullins. That's what she said.

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Enter dual threat at checkout. Happy to have him back a second time on dual threat. He is retired quarterback, but he's kind of the best guy to talk to about these guys. And he's also with John Brankus and the Solon Science. You can check that out at solonscience.com. And a longtime Elite 11 head coach is Trent Dilfer. What's up, man? What's happening, man?

Fun to do this. I know. I just have a million questions, and I know that you've been prepped. So I do want to start with, as somebody who's watched probably every Brady game here, I noticed that it does look different. And by different, I mean less than what we should expect. And it doesn't mean that he's pushed off the cliff here,

but the red zone numbers, some of the throws were... I thought that pick that he threw against Pittsburgh was one of the worst throws I've ever seen him make off the heels of him not understanding clock and distance and situation against Miami to end the first half. What are you seeing from Brady, and what should Pats fans expect?

Yeah, let's put it in context. I think you're probably like me. We're not saying it's bad. We're not saying it's over. We're not saying put him out to pasture, any of that stuff. It does look different. The word I've been using is it looks less precise. Is that fair?

Is that how your eye sees it too, probably? Yeah, I guess I just never, like, I mean, it's just weird to be spoiled to see a guy throw the football for as many years. And anytime it was a bad throw, I assumed it was somebody else's fault because it kind of always was. I mean, think about that. Yeah, that's a good assumption.

I could watch him step into a throw, and I would know how open the guy was going to be. I mean, that's peak Brady. I wouldn't have to see what's going on down the field. I'd be like, oh, he's going to hit this for 30 yards. I can tell exactly. And I'm sorry, I'm not being a homer here. It's just how much I watch the guy.

Oh, yeah. I mean, I've watched or studied every game he's ever played in. So, trust me, I get it. I think as I've studied it and I went back last week after the Miami thing, that was the one that got me. I couldn't understand how he would make that mistake at the end of the half. I just started, you know, going through it, broad brush at first, and then really kind of got into the nitty-gritty, the granular stuff. And here's kind of what I found, is that he still has tremendous arm talent.

He is still incredibly accurate, especially on certain types of throws. He still processes at a rate that I don't know if I've ever seen in the history of football. Maybe Peyton, maybe Breeze, maybe Rivers processed at that speed. The decision-making is still super, super, super clean for the most part. The biggest thing I'm seeing, and I'll list the context too, they're still fifth in offense and seventh in points, so it's not like what they've done is bad. But it's been different.

It's been a different Patriots offense. It's been more two-back, run-centric play-action, extended drops, downfield stuff. A lot of perimeter throws. More perimeter throws being outside the numbers

that I've ever seen by the Patriots. Again, none of this is bad. It's just different. If you go back and you put on Pickett here, when he is on fire, one of his stretches where he throws 13 touchdowns, no interceptions, he's throwing for a 75% clip. I mean, there's countless stretches of offense he's had like that. It's different than what they're doing this year.

It was more spread out, almost always single back offense with three receivers and a tight end on the field or multiple versions of that. Formationally spread you boundary to boundary, more motions and shifts to create matchups, and more of him at the line of scrimmage and five and six man protections directing traffic, line of scrimmage and five and six man protections directing traffic, exposing a defense that was going to try to attack them in some new flavor of the week. And his, his MO was,

he would kill you by a thousand cut in the middle of the field, throwing the ball short to intermediate, getting out of his hand and 2.3 ish second. So they're not doing that as much this year i think it's not allowing him at this age and with his skill set to be the best he can be i think their approach start the season was let's play this model to protect our defense a little bit we have to protect our defense and have longer sustained drives and be more physical in the run game we have bigger offensive linemen than we've ever had before, so let's utilize that personnel.

And again, it hasn't been bad, but I don't think it suits Tom Brady the best. Where he is the greatest of all time is in what I said, getting the ball, making a quick decision, and accurately throwing it to a guy in the five to 12 yard area in a position where he can run after the catch. I've seen less of that this year than I've seen. But I think I've ever seen, except maybe for his first couple of years in the league when that was kind of their MO. I want to just dumb it down and make it simpler. More James White, more spread, drunk spread out, more spread Gronk spread outs,

more Edelman, Hogan, Gordon on the field at the same time. Do that and you'll see the old Tom Brady here down the stretch. Okay, so you still think there's a version of them that's a problem for teams to deal with because Gronk isn't the same. I mean, Edelman had a really disappointing game against Pittsburgh with those drops.

You know, Hogan has his moments. Gordon seems to kind of disappear and reappear within the games, so I don't even know that he's somebody the teams are absolutely scheming against. I don't know what it is that they do that scares anybody, but you still think there's a

version of them that exists that could be a scary team offensively? What scares people, and this has been forever, when I was in the league it was like people, and this has been forever, when I was in the league it was like this, and when I was at ESPN it was like this, talking to coaches and GMs and defensive personnel. What scares you about the Patriots is him throwing the ball 12 out of 15 plays from shred formations and nickel and diming you to death.

You don't even know you're bleeding until you look down and you're standing in a puddle of blood. That's just the way he was forever. People are terrified of that because the other thing it does is the stains dry. They have so many third and threes that they convert, and you stay on the field, and the defense gets tired, and they stop rushing, and the offense sits on the sid gets tired and they stop rushing and the offense is on the sidelines and they twiddle their thumbs.

And then when they played that model, they would get in the tight red and they still have the physicality to run it in or obviously he could throw it in. But now it's kind of they've taken their tight red offense and use it throughout the field and then taking shots off. And it's a good formula. It's a great formula for some people. And by the way, he's not bad at it. He's still doing a lot of good stuff out of it, but it's not what he is the master of. And he's the master of throwing the ball in less than 2.3 seconds. And that's the lie. You look at some of the next level stuff, uh, you grade them out at

throwing the ball under 2.6 seconds and his quarterback ratings like 100 i mean sorry like 21 points higher which is a bigger discrepancy than most quarterbacks have most quarterbacks is about 10 percent higher he's 20 percent higher so the quicker he gets the ball out of his hand the better he is and if you drop that down that we i did this one year to ask him you drop that down to 2.3 seconds, like super fast, and nobody's even close. That's from snap to throw. And nobody's ever been in his ballpark.

That's snap to throw, right? 2.3? Yeah. Right. Snap to throw. Yeah, and here, if we're going to call you a goat every weekend, the expectations for you are higher until they're not higher anymore. So we'll see.

All right, so somebody else that I think at least this year, and we've spent a lot of time on the Aaron Rodgers topic, and one of my favorite memories, I hope I didn't say this the last podcast, because I know I've brought it up to you before, but just sitting around, we were in Fort Worth, we were all there forever, and it was that Dez catch, no catch playoff game.

I'm sitting next to you and Tariqo and Van Pelt's around, and we're just watching Rodgers throw. And to sit next to you, like I knew he had a cool arm. But to sit next to you and you started pointing out these little things. But it's different this year. And now it's going to be different next year. And with Mike McCarthy out, what does it mean for somebody like Aaron Rodgers in a new system? And I'll preface this with a bit of a rant.

I can't tell if it's a really underrated thing or really overrated thing. Because when I hear people say like for Brady, for instance, say, well, he's been in the same system. They have changed their offense so many different times. So yeah, his understanding with the staff is more streamlined. I don't know how much their terminology has changed, but it's not like they're running the same system. They've become multiple. They do a bunch of different things. Now, for Rodgers, after such a long stretch, same terminology,

same understanding, he and McCarthy were not on the same page. What is it going to be like for him to be doing some things that are different and perhaps challenging? I think, though, let me take 30 seconds on the system thing because that's probably a good table setter for the conversation. I studied offensive systems from 2001 to about 2012. Went back, studied old ones, current ones, ones I played in, blah, blah, blah. Nobody cares.

But what I learned was that systems were built around quarterbacks. And basically, a quarterback-friendly system is a system that's built around whatever that quarterback does best and then grows to whatever he learned to do better. So the West coast system was built around high completion percentage, shorter throws, runaway throws, because that's what Kenny Anderson and Joe Montana did best.

And then you can go to Don Correale and North Turner and Mike Marks and with the Patriots system, yada, yada, yada. And basically they're built around whatever the quarterback does very best. We're going to be smart enough to build that our system around that. And then we will grow that system to whatever that quarterback learns to do better. Because one of the greatest lies out there is that every quarterback can do everything and no, they can't john elway can throw the balls per site as drew breeze throws it but

drew breeze can't throw it vertically as powerfully as dan marino yada yada yada so that system in general and what aaron rogers has been part of is more of an old school west coast system, which is less motion, less shift, wider split, less compacted split, wider split, vertical releases by receivers, a very simplistic run game, pretty much a draw zone, certain flavors of the weak gap scheme, and then a passing tree that has been around since Bill Walsh invented it. And with little variations that have grown and he's growing up in that office. And then that office evolved to where he could stay at the line of scrimmage and double,

triple quadruple count, read the defense hand signal, get into one of their West coast concepts. So it was still done from a stagnant formation with wide splits and a very basic play-action game, because the run game is basic. Nothing wrong with it. Been wildly successful over the years. In fact, it's probably the most successful offensive system in the history of football.

However, the really good West Coast coaches have changed over the years, and they've bought into what we'll call the Coriel system. Let's just use two famous people, Walsh and Coriel. Coriel, more compacted personnel grouping formation, more gap schemes in the run game. So think of linemen coming down and other linemen coming around. Those are what's called gap schemes. There's more of a draw on the linebackers when you run that way. When you have those run schemes,

your play-action package is far more robust. And a lot of the West Coast coaches adapted to that, and a lot of the Coriel tree coaches adapt to the West Coast in their passing tree, and there kind of came this cool little blend that a lot of great coaches have gone and found wild success with. I say all that because Aaron really has never been exposed to like graduate

level offensive system because he was so good at what they did. They never introduced the rest. Okay. So I'm trying to think of analogy. If you can think of one, come up with one, but one where you don't really even know how cool it can be because you're so good at what it is, there's no reason to ever introduce it. Well, it's starting to, it's caught up with him. Marry your high

school sweetheart. Awesome. There you go. I knew you're better man than that. 30, you get divorced. You're like, wait a minute. Instagram. Exactly. What happened? I hope that doesn't happen to me. So the challenge with Aaron Rodgers' coach conversation is going to be, you're going to have to be able to understand his mastery of the West Coast system and buy into a lot of it because it is really good and he's very good at it. But at the same time, you're going to have to convince him that there is a whole other

frontier out there offensively that he's never been exposed to that's going to create tons of space on the football field for him to work with. More open receivers. More runaway throws. More stuff in the middle of the field. Backers at shallower depth because of the draw by pulling guards and play action. A whole new world of RPOs. Basically, hey, Aaron, how would you like to play what Patrick Mahomes is playing right now?

And Aaron would go, hell yeah, I want that. Well, that's what this new coach has to be able to do is go in and say, listen, we're going to do a lot of what you've been one of the best ever doing, but let me give you this other gold dot that you've never been exposed to. That's going to extend your career, the excellence of your career, another five years. And that's the guy they're looking for. It doesn't have to be the head coach. It could be the coordinator. The other thing this coach is going to have to do is he's going to have to coach Aaron, you know, what's off.

Because Aaron at his best was at Cal with Jeff Tedford, who I've known for years. I was Jeff Tedford's first first-round quarterback. I was with him last week at the Vegas Bowl. One of the greatest coaches of all time, and Aaron would tell you that. And then McCarthy in the early years was a grinder. McCarthy in the early years was as demanding as any coach in football, offensively. I know that because I know a lot of the quarterbacks that played for him,

and they would complain in the off season about how hard they were working while the rest of the slap those were playing in golf tournaments. So that changed, you know, I think success is hard to handle for many people. I think that happened in green Bay, but Aaron's best was under two coaches that were hard out that demanded a ton, that their expectations were out of the roof, that worked their tails off, that there's give and take, they're really good relationally with Aaron, but at the end of the day, hey, dude, we're doing it my way. I'm the coach, you're the player, do it the way I tell you to do it,

and you're going to be pretty good. You know what? He was pretty good at Cal. He was pretty awesome up until the last few years. That's the balance this next coach is going to have and need to have. And there's very few out there because coaching has become an ambition profession instead of a passion profession. And we should do a whole pod on that because it's ruining a lot of sport. Because these coaches are looking at players as their next stepping stone. profession. And we should do a whole pod on that because it's ruining a lot of sport because these coaches are looking at players as their next stepping stone and they don't invest their,

you know, the fullness of who they are into where they're at. They're always worried about where they're headed. And Jeff Tedford, Mike McCarthy in the early days were invested in where they were at. It was a passion more than an ambition. So it's going to be hard to find that guy. And I think that guy most likely will come from the college ranks or a name you're not hearing right now because we recycle, the media recycles these same lame ass names every year that I've known for 20 years used to deliver my coach coffee. And it's kind of becoming a bad deal to find the next Sean McVay, like everybody wants, or the Naggies of the world.

Who would be the perfect guy then? Do you have like two names? I've been batting it around. There's a coach at Oregon, Arroy uh, who is a Tedford disciple. Um, and if you watch Oregon's offense this year, and I know they weren't great. I know the quarterback at times underperformed,

even though he's a phenomenal talent, it's a sound and as diverse as any offense out there, maybe besides Oklahoma. Uh, it's an awesome offense. I really like him and he's growing up the right way in coaching. So Marcus Arroyo. So I would agree

that watching them, they look different week to week. And I can't tell if that was them maybe not being... Because I had a moment after that Stanford game where I famously was like, I think this team is really good. And then they... So did I. I was with you, dude.

I was 100% with you. I liked how many different... I mean, with all the different offensive players. All right, that's really cool. That was deep. That was a lot deeper than I expected you to go. All right, so Marcus Arroyo. I can't...

There's other guys. Again, I... I pause sometimes on the name thing because then you... Like, I was the first guy to ever mention sean mcveigh as head coach years ago and sean and i talked he's like trent that's a lot of pressure i'm like we'll do it i believe it he goes well i'm years away from being a head coach i'm like no you're not it's coming quick and i'm gonna be the one that promotes it but some guys can't handle that

some guys are really comfortable where they're at in life and they don't necessarily need to be pushed too hard or have a media voice start proclaiming them as the next head coach. Look what happened to our boy in Minnesota. He was not ready to be the coordinator in Minnesota. And look what happened. Those are big jumps for these guys. And DeFilippo was somebody that people were like, oh, this guy's going to be the next head coach.

And then I'm going, wait a minute, so now he's getting fired? Like, that was crazy. I think McVay, that was you like, oh, this guy's going to be the next head coach. And then I'm going, wait a minute. So now he's getting fired. Like that was crazy. I think McVay, that was you also knowing him. And I have a couple people, I don't, I don't know if I'd call them mutual friends, but I've, I've hung out with some guys that have hung out with him that are like, he's just different. He's just a different breed of dude in the best way possible. Um, and it's not, I think the cool thing with him too, is that normally somebody this advanced, this young would maybe be a little socially awkward. And I've never picked up that from him ever. More from Trent Dill for in a minute here,

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outside of the profession to tell you what happened after it actually happened. So now the Rams are stagnant. Okay. And if somebody in the beginning of Goff's career was like, I don't know, man. And then you see him put up these crazy numbers.

I refuse to believe that all of a sudden he was the bus that tricked us for a year and a half. His arm talent is too great, but that they don't run a lot of multiple stuff. We're going to run our stuff, and we're more talented, and we're going to run our stuff so well. It is actually a little bit like that Chip Kelly stuff back in the day. We have to run a million plays and come out of a different formation to deceive you, where

you have the Saints that are thought to really mix it up far more often, and yet here we have these two dynamic offenses both being stagnant at the exact same time and the wrong time of the season. So let's do a little problem solving here on the Rams and Saints. So I'll start here. Is that too much? Did I overwhelm you?

Actually, I thought you're the smartest question I've got on the Rams when you texted it to me. That's true, right? Always correct me whenever I'm close to being wrong Actually, I thought you're the smartest question I've got on the ramp when you text it to me. That's true, right? And always correct me whenever I'm close to being wrong. But, you know, I know. All right. So back to, yeah, go ahead.

I'll just shut up now. So 11 personnel, which they famously run 95% of their snaps. One tight end, three wide receivers, one back in the backfield. Every time you watch Rams game, they say how much they run this personnel, and they run basically the same stuff every week with some window dressing. They use tempo to change it up. And it's a great way to get the most out of a young quarterback, and I think that's why Sean did it. To me, Sean is a 9, five out of a 10 when it

comes to a coach, the 0.5 gap that I would give. And I think he probably knows this by the way, if he's lit, if he listens, he'll probably shake his head and go, well, no crap, Bill, I'm going to do this in the next few years. But it's his lack of using multiple personnel grouping. Personnel grouping and window dressing are the two greatest weapons the offense has pre-snap. People will say tempo. People will say snap count. Yeah, those are good. Those are definitely valuable tools. You want your toolbox.

But personnel grouping and window dressing, meaning formation shifts, motion, stacking receivers, yada, yada, yada. Because the general rule of defense is alignment, assignment, reaction. If you mess up their alignment and assignment, they can't react. If they're having to think as the ball was being snapped too much, you gain a significant advantage offensively. So you are right in your thesis that they're too simplistic because they use one personnel grouping. They do use shifts and motions.

They do use some of those things. But the one personnel grouping, the biggest thing it allows you to do is attack their protection. Because they only have a handful of protection. When you're in a one tight end, one back set, you have very limited protections you can go to. You're basically living in a sort, scan sort protection scheme, or it's a zone scheme where your back is scanning, or you're in a slide scheme or your play action scheme is off your zone run game that's not hard for these defensive coordinators to figure

out when you add different personnel groupings you play 13 personnel one snap which is one back three tight end one right receiver now you have a multitude of protection schemes you can use. When you throw in 10 personnel, which is four wide receivers, no tight end, now you have the five-man scout protections they're worried about. When you throw in 12 personnel, there's protections to go without. So those are what defensive coordinators and players are having to try to figure out. When you play the Rams, you know you're only going against a few. You also know you're going against the best back in the league, but against, again, an inside-to-outside zone run game.

Very few gaps. So I remember one year we were playing with this famous Eagles coordinator in Seattle, and he knew that playing these zone run teams, we were playing the Denver Broncos coached by Shanahan, cheat the defensive lineman a yard off the ball. Take a yard and cheat him, so now you couldn't reach him in these zone schemes.

And we just stifled the Broncos' zone running game. The next time we played them, they had some gaps and they gashed us. So, there needs to be an evolution to the Rams offense as we move forward. It needs to be more personnel groupings, more run schemes,

and different pass protection. Sean has forgotten more football than I'll ever know. So I'm sure he's getting there. I think the reason they did that was because you have to get the most out of the quarterback. And up until last week, they have gotten it. He was incredible. But it isn't just a fluky schedule, hey, the Bears, you know,

and that kind of thing. It's teams have figured this thing out. The thing that we thought we wondered in the new NFL, if any of these teams would get slowed down, and they all collectively have been slowed down a little bit. I mean, not Kansas City too much, but more so than what we saw in the first half of the season. So the answer is, I think it all is part of it.

I'm giving you the boring, geeky stuff while you're having me on the podcast. No, but that's what I wanted. No, I didn't, because honestly, too many guys would come on and just be like, oh, look at the teams they've played, as if nothing's wrong. Yeah, and there's some truth to that. There's absolutely some truth to that. I think league-wide, you know, Colin tried to get me yesterday on the, you know, defensive cotton up. No, no, they haven't.

What defenses do this time of year, every year, every year since I've been in the NFL is they finally figure out we got to stop giving up big plays. We got to keep everything in front of us. There's this bravado in the first half of the season, defensively that we are going to come out, we're going to

stifle people. And then the rules have shifted. It's an unfair fight. The offense has the advantage. And then they all eat some humble pie and they're like, listen, all that really matters is don't let them throw touchdowns. That's all that really matters. And they all back off and they all play more passive games and they get creative in their front seven

to take away your bread and butter run game. And they you go the distance why do you think the Patriots want somebody doing Super Bowls because they actually built their offense to go the distance every single time they got the ball so when defenses start backing up and say hey go the distance they're like cool this is what we're hoping you would say because we're built to do it what other topics do you want to do here? I'm going to let you pick because I know I'm going to keep you for an hour here. Do you want to do one more on Mahomes? Do you have more?

We've already done enough on Mahomes in the grand scheme of things. Is there something newer with him? Because I think when we first talked. What are your listeners like? What are your listeners like the most? You know, I can go any way you want. What do people like talking about these days? I'm always the stubborn one on this stuff.

And now that we've seen this, it's not like, you know, this is where I end up becoming late to the party. But in the middle of next year, we're saying he's the best quarterback in the NFL. I'm not going to be surprised at all. I can't believe he's this good. I can't. He's crazy good. When I was doing the Brady

study on some of the deep level stats, there was a pop-out, and I mentioned this on the pod we did about him the first time, because it caught my eye. What caught my eye more than the playmaking, because remember, I've seen the kid since he was 17, so I wasn't surprised by the playmaking. What I was

surprised with was how he was shredding people on rhythm from the pocket. And yes, we're a highlight-educated audience. And I love it, too. Like, you turn on NFL Network, turn on ESPN, you're seeing the no-look pass. You're seeing the fireball in the back of the end zone off one foot.

You're seeing him roll left and throw across his body. And oh, my God, how can he do that? I get it. But the bulk of his work was done like drew brief like five steps hitch throw and just gashing people his quarterback rating is 130 this year when he's throwing the ball for under 2.6 seconds 130 it's ridiculous And it's not line of scrimmage screen. He is a processor. He is quick. He is, I mean, he's everything you want.

And if you're to like build the perfect modern day quarterback, you're kind of building this guy. Now he still has the reckless streak in him, the farm in him. I hope Andy is crushing him behind the scenes on some of that stuff, because you don't ever want the guys aggressiveness to leave, I hope Andy is crushing him behind the scenes on some of that stuff because you don't ever want the guys aggressiveness to leave, but you do want the recklessness to leave. So for him to get in the Brady breathe atmosphere of greatness,

it's going to take discernment, discretion, poise, patience, things like that. These kind of touchy-feely terms that actually really matter. But in terms of just having it already, the canvas is... I can't think of it.

I watched Brett Favre up close and personal during the three MVPs. He was thrashing us every year when I was in Tampa. He things that no player had ever done people would try to tell me Elway did it so I'd go back and watch Elway film and be like no he didn't nobody's done what Brett Favre is doing right now this is the first guy I can say is doing stuff that Brett Favre did and possibly better and Favre got really weird there for a few years. I don't know if it was his own ego or what, but it was like, hey, rein it in, dude.

You're awesome. You're the best in the league, but you actually are kind of playing careless. He had a few years there where he was careless, and that's what I thought was going to happen with Mahomes. But Mahomes is far more efficient than the careless Favre. Who was with Favre. And as I said, who was with, who was with Favre when he was brilliant,

the head coach was Holmgren and Andy Reid was on the staff. I'm just kidding. Don't ever let anybody tell you Gruden had anything to do with it. I obviously, I know it was Andy Reid. I just, I'm trying to do positive Gruden moments. Cause nobody wants to do any for him.

Mike Holmgren, when he left, there was a significant decline in Brett Barr. Andy Reid left around that time as well. The why is because Mike Holmgren, I played for Mike for four years, learned a ton of football from him. Still one of the great coaches ever.

Mike was an innovator. Mike was a great relational guy with this quarterback as long as you knew who was boss. He would give you a long leech. As long as you would prove to him, you're going to do it exactly my way. Until you don't do it my way, you better make it work. And when it didn't work, he would rein in the leech.

I mean, I've seen him. He choked me out a couple times because I went outside of the program. I'll tell you a quick funny story. We're playing San Diego Chargers in 01. I was playing house and back out bench my first year there. We're shredding the Chargers. We're killing threes, I think. And I throw, we have this play where you're supposed to read it left,

middle, right, all the way right. Cross the board, regardless of coverage. A pure progression play. And the corner to the right is playing off Daryl Jackson like 12 yards. I stand up, bang Daryl Jackson ahead. She gets like nine yards. We end up getting out of the drive a few plays later. I'm walking the sideline and he is, his jaws are fluctuating,

snot's coming out of his nose, his eyes are red. I mean, he looks like a devil, and he's meeting me on the way. And I didn't mess up on third down. So I had no idea why he's mad at me. And I get to him, and he says things to me that I could never repeat, even in an R movie. And his point that he hammered home was, when I call a pure progression play, you read it the way I'm trying, the way I've told you to read it. So I fight back, oh, we're yelling at each other on the sidelines.

And finally, Gil Haskell gets me on the phone and says, Trent, the reason you're so pissed is he's setting up a freebie touchdown for you. is, is he setting up a freebie touchdown for you? If you would have read it right and read the slant first and bang the slant in there, he was coming right back to plug Osteen and it was going to be a gimme. A gimme. You could have punted it to the F. And it hit me. Do what the mastermind tells you to do.

You do it well long enough and then you get the leash to go try some other stuff. That was Brett Favre in Green Bay. When Holmgren left, he no longer had that oversight. And Favre went, like all of us will. Everyone will. If Brady didn't have Belichick, if you named the guy, if Breeze didn't have Payton, every quarterback would go crazy because we're all narcissists. We're all legends in our own mind.

Even the Brock Osweiler's and the Trent Dilfer's were legends in our own mind. So we're going to do it our way unless there's oversight. And Barb lost his oversight. If Mahomes keeps his and they keep those people around him to continue to rein in some of the recklessness, I do not see a cap on the ceiling. That is so well said, man. I mean, that was really good. I'm telling you, I kind of pushed back on it,

and a coach in the NFL, we were just talking. I mean, he didn't like, he respected my opinion about anything, but it was a long time ago, and I'd said something about Favre and he goes, he's like, Favre is a completely different guy now. And I was like, what? You know, and I'm still kind of just imagining the old gunslinger, the old mountain lion. I remember sitting next to Mike Ditka 10 something years ago, and we were in one of those side radio studios.

And when Ditka just wanted to hide from everybody, he'd come over to radio. And I think he may have thrown in a chew and fell asleep with it in, which I still think is one of the most amazing things I've ever seen. And that's a Wednesday for me. He woke up, he woke up to Favre getting just murdered by a defensive lineman. And all Favre was waiting to do was for a tight end to get free. Like he knew he had him, he knew he had him. He knew he had him. He could have gotten rid of it, not taking the hit. And he's like, whatever, I'm just going to get hit.

And Ditka goes, that guy's got the balls of a mountain lion. I love him. And then he fell back asleep with the chewing. And I was like, yeah, man, that really was. But it's very clear if you look at some of those weird late Green Bay years, he didn't really care anymore. And he actually wasn't close to me. He was a very mistake-prone quarterback, which at that point, his legend had been built up enough that nobody ever really wanted to knock him in. I think that's a big

part of the Rodgers transition because they're not only as far of retiring and unretiring every year for about four years, they knew they had something special in Aaron and far more impressionable than Favre, who then decided when he went to Minnesota, he was locked in motivated and was going to pay attention to, was it Bevel? So it was that, I don't know. I think what you just said is not as understood, even though there's tons of evidence that it all happened. So that was really good.

Have you ever heard, and please, if you have, stop me, because it's horrible the second time, but I think it's pretty good the first time. My surgeon-butcher analogy with quarterback? I don't think I've heard it. No. If I haven't heard it recently enough to remember it, go for it. All right.

I think the simplest way to talk about the difference between good and best is that if you take a surgeon, a guy that's going to save your life, and you take a butcher, they both have sharp tools they're working with. And they both are very valuable jobs. The butcher takes his knife and he hacks away. At the end of the day, you get a pastrami sandwich. A surgeon takes his tools, his sharp tools, and he uses them to such a level of

precision, he saves your life. That's the difference of quarterback. Cam Newton, butcher. Brett Favre, second part of his career, butcher. First part of his career, surgeon. Tom Brady, the ultimate surgeon. Peyton Manning, early in his career, butcher. Second half of his career, surgeon. Drew Brees, surgeon the entire time. Go on and on and just put him in surgeon or butcher category.

A butcher relies on the machete. He relies on the big play, the splash, the sizzle, the cool. You know, all the stuff that shows up on highlights. And at the end of the day, you get a pastrami sandwich. There's a reason why the Super Bowl's been won by two types of teams. A team dominated by defense, my team, or a team directed by a surgeon. The only way to win

the long race with a butcher is with a great defense. But if you have a surgeon, a guy that's so precise, so exact, so educated, just so disciplined, then he can take you all the way home.

Talent's the biggest lie of it all. It's about the difference between being a surgeon and a butcher. That's awesome. No, that's really good. And you know, the other thing I always think is great is that when people bring you up in the Super Bowl, you think you're worse as a player than they probably do. So no one is ever like, I know you will enough, like whenever you talk about it,

then somebody will be like, oh, whatever. Like you're going at the king on this one. Like Dilfer's not phased by your, he won a ring because of the defense. Nobody knows it better than he does. Like, so whenever I see anybody going down that road with you,

I go, not only is this like almost 20 years old almost 20 years old, he's impervious to this. He's heard it all. Oh, yeah. I've used it as an advantage now. Give me your one sentence on Haskins because I know you've got to run. And we'll tease that for before the draft when I talk to you or something like that, all right? Yeah, let's do a big one pre-draft. Great.

Dwayne Haskins, surgeon. Okay. He was 17 years old. He had the mentality of a 30-year-old. I think he'll be the first pick. He's not going to test out well. He's not a great athlete. He's a good functional athlete.

He'll create some time and some space for himself. But he talked about incredible field vision, processing speed. He's so clean. He's super accurate at all three levels. He's a gym rat, film junkie.

I mean, everything you're looking for if you want a surgeon. But I think the Herbert conversation is going to be really fun. I think the Minshew conversation.

Yeah. I was one of the first to get on the Minshew bandwagon. I wrote some articles for The Athletic. I think he is a guy that in the modern day game can be a big time player. We got to start talking to him because I think Tua is your next true brief.

There's some really fun stuff. By the way, there's 10 others coming. Trevor Lawrence and there's guys all over the country. Jake Fromm, they're going to be great pros. The future of quarterbacking is really, really good, especially now that the NFL has opened their eyes to Saturday offense. You're going to see great quarterbacking here for the next 10 years or so. You're the best, man.

If anything I can do for you, I'll have McVay on the podcast if it helps you out at all. So let me know. I'd do that favor for you. I like crushing Todd on the quarterback draft stuff we've been texting. I will tell you this. You've got to try yoga for me. I've been doing hot yoga.

Hardest thing I've ever done. Ever. All right. No, actually, I've thought about it recently because I just can't get the old gears as loose as I used to. So, all right. I'll do it. I'll report back. I sleep better. Yeah, I sleep better. Yes. All right, I'll do it. I'll report back. I sleep better.

Yeah, I sleep better. My fake knee feels better. My shoulders, I have two torn labrums. They feel better. I'm telling you, it's brutal. You're going to want to die

your first six times. I've been eight times. It was the first day I actually got through. I didn't think I was going to die, but I want you to do it. I'll do it once. You got to do a pod with some yogi.

You got to have a big yogi guy on your pod. Yeah, definitely want a yoga dude on with me. That'd be good. That'll get ready. There we go. Hey, thanks a lot, Trent. Talk to you soon. All right, buddy. Bye. Before we get to Chris Fowler trivia, you got to let us know, too. Leave a review on Dual Threat and let me know if we should keep

doing this. I'm always guilty of when something's finally like picking up momentum and everybody looks forward to it and laughs then i want to stop doing it which is really stupid i did that with a lot of stuff on the radio show i got the slightest little thing that i didn't like then i be like i don't want to do it anymore you'd be like why don't you just keep doing the thing that's becoming popular so we're in those waters? So we're in those waters now. Yeah, we're in those waters right now. But that's okay. We can still do it.

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