The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Was Grady Little NOT an Idiot? Revisiting the 2003 Red Sox. Plus, MLB 2020 Season Negotiations With Todd Walker.

Episode Date: May 28, 2020

Russillo shares his thoughts on the rocky negotiations between MLB owners and the players association (1:55), before talking with 12-year MLB infielder Todd Walker to discuss his time on the 2003 Boston Red Sox, becoming fast friends with Pedro Martínez, the tension-filled 2003 ALCS, and their crushing loss to the Yankees in Game 7. Finally, Todd shares his thoughts on the negotiations about how to start this season (20:35). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, what's up? It's Ryan Russillo. In today's podcast, I'm excited about Todd Walker, who was the second baseman for the 2003 Boston Red Sox. I'm going to go through that whole 03 season. That Pedro Zim stuff was popping up again recently. I was at Fenway for that game. it was one of the craziest games I've ever been to of any sport my entire life and then Aaron Boone's walk off Walker being on the field dug out what it was like after that and then something Walker did that I didn't like and we hashed it out and we've become friends since then so we're gonna do that and I want to talk a little bit about the MLB owner's proposal. Now that I've gone through everything the last couple of days, because I wasn't ready

to tweet about any of it until I had a little bit more information. Now I'm ready to kind of hammer this proposal and 100% stick up for the players on this part of it. But today's episode of the Ryan Russillo podcast on the ringer podcast network is brought to you by state farm. Just like sports. The game of life is unpredictable. Talk to a State Farm agent and get a teammate who can help you navigate the unexpected. I've been looking through all the different NBA proposals, and there's a lot of them. I was thinking about doing one where I went, okay, no charges allowed because of social distancing. And you also, for social distancing reasons, can't high five every guy in your team after

a missed free throw. So let's do that. And let's have like 40 teams include some G league guys, maybe get this up to 64 because that would be unpredictable. But basically what I'm pointing out is that everybody seems to have a different solution. Although the group stage thing I kind of get, but there's parts of it too, where I'm like, why are we expanding this out to teams that have 20 wins? Get a teammate who can help you navigate the unexpected. Talk to a state farm agent today. So you want to talk CBAs. Let's start with this. If I'm on the player's side, if I'm in the room on the player's side, that not just a guy with a podcast, I am arguing to the owners that this negotiation, getting baseball back in 2020, whatever version of it it is, this baseball product long-term and protect those profits, then you should be focusing on covering whatever losses you're taking on in 2020.

Because normally the way the CBA works is the owners always win because they do. It's just to what level do they win. The owners always win because in the long haul, we're going to be here in the long haul. We are going to own these teams for a much longer time. And if I'm not going to be around, somebody in my family is going to have this thing. Now, yes, some franchises do sell, but you understand the point. It is a decade plus approach to business on the owner's side

where for the players, baseball's longer. Not as long as you'd think, though. Go through a deck of baseball cards. You probably won't do this, but it'll blow your mind if you went through just a thing of baseball cards from a few years ago and you're like, oh my God, all these guys are out of the league league i can't say that i've done that a ton lately but i used to do it in the 80s and my dad and i'd be like man that guy's out of the league

already wow all right so that's why the nfl the players are like you know what are you going to do miss games actually miss games in your short career window, sometimes an overstated shorter career, but you get the point. So this one is different because if there is no baseball, that is going to hurt the owners more long-term than it would hurt the players in the short term. And that's a very rare occurrence. So we also have to remember as bad as this gets throughout the latest piece of breaking news, that until there's like a real deadline, that's a real deadline, like we have to get an agreement done by Friday, that I'm not going to worry about how bad the news is or how bad momentum is or how toxic it feels because none of this is really off. None of this is impossible to achieve until we know that date has actually passed.

And until we know what that date is, people can report that. Maybe it's this, maybe it's that, maybe you even need to go past whatever you think the date is. And then it's a 48 hours of everybody feeling bad. And that's when the work actually gets done because what baseball is trying to do, if you want to be understanding the baseball and not just be mad at it, they're basically trying to create a new CBA on the fly in a matter of weeks. And that's basically impossible. Think about all of the different NFL updates that we had again again leaked from the owner's side almost the entire time we're like oh yeah i want to hammer out a new deal by the beginning of the season i'd like to hammer out a new deal

by thanksgiving yeah we'll probably have something by the turn of the year yeah you know we'd like to really get this done like two years before the tv deal is up yes the owners would like all that stuff to be in place to be stable so they can present labor peace to the television networks but nobody ever seemed to care about the players going well yeah actually we don't have a thanksgiving deadline actually no we don't care about the tv deal stability as much as you guys do so if you go back to any of these times and how often it was updated think of trying to do this on the fly where everybody's already mad at each other and we're dealing with the uncertainty of what does this global pandemic look like a few months from now. So what the owners did, because they're just going to do it, and this is kind of what happens in negotiations, is they started from a position of insulting than actually trying to work towards a middle and a compromise.

Because when I pour through the details, I don't see an offer that was made that was like, hey, what's the quickest way to try to get some sort of resolution here? What's the best way to get everybody to feel good about this? No, What they did was, what can we get over on these guys for 2020? What can we do? Because a lot of businesses, a lot of things will start with a position of insulting and then work towards compromise because that's just the way everybody negotiates. It's not everybody, but it's kind of the way. And you'll learn this as you get a little bit older, whether it's somebody putting in an offer in your house and you get upset. Although it's always funny when you want to make a lower offer on a house and the realtor says to you, ah, that's insulting. Be like, what do I care? Like, I don't, I don't know who the person is. Oh, what? You don't want to go to cocktail parties in town and be the guy

that offered 20% less than list. Like, why would I give a shit? Um, but that'll happen to you. But then when you're offered something low, you're like, oh, I can't believe those people. Do they, have they not seen the lines in the backyard? Have they not seen these fixtures? That's insulting. Like, okay, fine. You can just say no to it. It's not a big deal. I will tell a story about myself because I know more about myself than a lot of topics. When I was negotiating with ESPN, it wasn't always the greatest time. And there were times where I'd be like, why does it have to start this way? We both know this is not what's going to happen. And there were times where I'd be like, why does it have to start this way? We both know this is not what's going to happen.

This is not what's going to be agreed upon. And again, unless you're bringing value, you have to bring value. You have to bring worth. You have to do something that people actually think is unique enough of a skill that is worth paying you for it. But through the beginning years, it was never very good, but it was always a long-term play for me. And then one contract came up where I had been doing television for the Celtics and Kevin Miller,

the guys at Comcast, they took a huge chance on me as a non-player, non-coach to just sit there as an analyst chair and talk some hoops because guess what? I was good at it. And Kevin didn't care that I didn't play. He's like, I'm just going to throw you on. I did something like 80 studio shows the year the Celtics won the title in 07-08 and it meant a lot to me, but I was always trying to find a way to carve into some TV stuff with ESPN. I'm not going to take forever on this one, but I'm just going to make a point here. Now, the point is that as I was trying to negotiate with ESPN in the beginning with the Scott stuff, I always looked at Van Pelt and I as this is the long-term play. Always make this work because you're going to be good. He and

you are going to have this great radio show and years to come, this will all pay off. So you're going to have to suck up parts of this that you think are completely unfair. And part of it was they wanted me to stop doing TV for Comcast, but they still didn't want me to do TV at ESPN. I was like, okay, so wait a minute. Like I can't do any of that stuff that I'm good at because you guys won't even use me. And back then it was a lot harder to get on TV. It's fine. Not going to bring it up. Not going to make a big deal out of it.

There was a chance I was going to be on first take as a main fill-in, but then they wanted me to do it for free after they just gave me a contract where they said, we're going to let me be on TV. So I was like, wait a minute. I don't want to just do this for free. Maybe I should have, whatever. It's all in the past. Then it came down to like a contract where it started to get a little bit better for

me. And I still hadn't done TV really forever.'s starting to go up Scott and I are working out people are starting to believe in the show a little bit more and there was still zero TV days and I'd be like can't you just throw me like 10 can't you have me as the last minute fill in I'm 20 minutes up the street I'm here five six days a week like why couldn't you just throw me on some of these late NBA shows that a lot of the players don't even want to be on anymore? Is it that bad to throw me on? The answer was yes. At the very end of that deal, I wrote up a proposal for one of the big time executives.

I said, look, I know you hate the idea of me on television and that's fine, but I haven't said anything about it in two years. This deal is almost up. Is there any way that you can put me on, not for two shows, give me 20 real shows, put me on the worst shows, and you think I'm that bad after doing 20 of those? Because that was always tough. I may pop in to do one thing, and I hadn't done TV in months, and they're like, oh, you weren't very good. And you're like, yeah, maybe because I haven't been on TV in six months. They were like, is there a way? Can we come up to some conclusion? You can pay me the lowest possible TV rate, whatever it is, because I'm not going to do it for free. That was a big thing at that point in my career. I was like, I'm not going to do this for free because doing stuff for free sometimes is worse than

actually asking for money because they'll think even less of you. Like this loser is going to show up and do extra work for free. And there was a time where I was actually taking vacation days from radio to do TV. And they were like, wait a minute, what is he doing? And then I get called in. They're like, well, you can't do that. I was like, well, what's the solution? Like just stop doing TV. So the TV thing was always this massive battle. All right. So I've laid it all out. They agreed to this proposal. I do like 20 shows and guess what? I'm deep. I'm good at it. You know, I'm not telling you I'm, um, Bob Costas hosting the Olympics, but I was good at it. All right. The first offer on the last big deal that I'd gotten from ESPN, and this was finally like,

okay, now I'm making good money, not headline New York Post money. Everybody get mad at me money, but good money. The first offer was zero television. And he goes, so we're back at this after 10 years where the first offer is zero television. And I walked, this is going on for a couple of weeks. I'm walking through the courtyard, a TV executive is walking next to me. He's like, Hey, how's it going with the negotiation? I go, you know, I fought so hard for the TV stuff and you guys know how I feel about it. And I actually think I'm good enough for the roles that you put me in. And I thought I was good, but you know, I wasn't going to be arrogant about it. I go, but when you start the negotiation at zero TV days, it makes me think you prefer I'm never on television, which we both know isn't going to happen. I'm going to end up,

we're going to go back and forth and you're going to give me some of those days. Why couldn't you have just said, hey, give him 50 TV days and pay him whatever, pay him the lowest rate for the 50 TV days. He'll say yes. And your preference was that it's just zero. And the exec to his credit looked at me and said, yeah, you know what? That's not cool. I said, yeah, I know. It's just stupid. And guess what happened? I ended up having more TV days. Things worked out. They used me on SportsCenter nonstop. And I did all those late night Saturday shows that, again, none of the players wanted to do because he got out of the studio at like 2.33 in the morning. So the reason I use that example is that if you're a player, you're going,

okay, we know we're probably going to come to some middle ground, but your proposal starts with not just the prorated thing that we agreed to two months ago in March. Now again, Blake Snell, some of those comments, I don't think those guys are now retroactively right. I think the way they handled it, I can't, I can't hang with any of the Blake Snell comments to be honest with you. Like, and I haven't changed my mind on this, which is also another thing that I want to point out here in a second.

But when you look through some of these proposals and let's all do this too, let's all give each other a big hug and put our arms around each other. Big circle. We understand that health and safety is the number one thing, but the money really pisses people off more than anything else. So we can worry about the health and safety and all those things that sound really good and all the things that we're worried about in the headlines, but if the owner's proposal had just been straight up a prorated full salary,

prorated based on the full salary, and you're going to make every dollar based on games played, this agreement would probably be close to done. But that's not what the owners offered. What they did was a prorated proposal on a scale where the more you made, the less you would actually make in 2020.

So, if your base salary as a minimum player was $563,000, this proposal would pay you $262,000. $262,000 of the $285,000 that you would play in a prorated, say, 82-game season. So you're thinking, okay, wait a minute. I am going to make almost everything I was going to make based on the fact that we're not playing 162. Because again, the elders, you have to do something for them here. You can't get your full salary if you're not playing 162 games and there are no fans. You're going to make less of the players. The players, I believe, accept that. So you don't

have to be like an anarchist player here where you're like, whatever, bro. I signed for 30. I want my check for 30. I know what you want. And I know it would never help the players to say, Hey, I take a little bit less. Cause you just don't want to do that. Right? These guys are nasty. And we talked to Todd Walker. There's a collusion thing with him at the end. That's so obvious that he ended up getting paid for collusion. That wasn't in 1970, man. That was in 2004. Right? So let's look at the scale. Minimum guys like, look, I'm only losing like 20 grand. The next scale, if you make, again, your base salary is 1 million, the proposal will pay you 434,000, which is 434,000 of about 500,000 of the pro rated. But as you keep looking at this,

if you were a $30 million player, this proposal pays you $7 million. And what the owners were trying to do, because there's actually more than half, which I think surprises people, but I think it's about 60% of the players make less than a million dollars, which, and again, don't be this guy. Well, I would do that. I play for free. The person that in 2020 is still complaining about player salaries, you realize that means you're rooting for owners to be making even more. You're probably the person that retweets

all the dumb billionaire memes who says, oh, since March, whatever, this billionaire has added this much value to their net worth. Okay, yeah, did you do that meme when the stock market was going to shit when the Dow was at 18,000? Did you do it then? Because a lot of this isn't just reinvesting in their own position. And yes, people have added to their portfolios, but a lot of these billionaires

that have added billions on paper have only done it after a ridiculous tanking of the stock market. That's just a little financial lesson for you. If you just want to go ahead and retweet that stuff, because I guarantee you're the guy that retweets that stuff. But at the same time, every time you get mad about players saying they want more money, you're mad at the players and not the billionaire owners. To this day, yes, players make a lot of money. If you did something that was really hard to do, really rare, you would be paid a lot of money too. There's a reason why there aren't Twitter feeds of relievers going through our jobs day to day although there's probably some guys i think i suck but you get it like if you're a mason or you are a small business health insurance salesman or a consultant like i was um

there aren't a lot of pro athletes tweeting about you and your day at work okay those are the rules i know you don't have to like it but you you have to accept it. You have to stop worrying about, well, if the players come back and prorated and it's still 200, it's still 400, it's still 700,000. Oh, that guy's still going to make a million dollars a year. This is a business of elites, elite owners and elite employees. And it's just going to be different. And you're just going to have to accept it, or you're going to be miserable your whole life. So as this proposal was laid out, much like I thought the NFL proposal where you're like, hey, let's try to take care of a greater number of players so that we have more support for

whatever CBA were proposing, because that way the vote will go our way. Now, some players have told me that's not exactly what they did they want to take care of minimum players okay maybe but this is right out of the nfl playbook what the baseball owners try to do was like look if 60 or less are making a million bucks or under that let's hook them up but we're going to clean up in savings on the high ticket guys and there's less of those high-ticket guys to vote against this. So there you go. But what they didn't realize is that there is still so much animosity historically between the union and ownership. And maybe they did, and they just don't care. So I shouldn't assume to know what the latest relationship update is.

But the lower-salary players were like, okay, sure, we get hooked up, but you're destroying our elites. And the respect that the lower tier players have for the highest tier players, I think is way beyond what the owners even anticipated. And what I think is always important when you're doing this is you don't have to be a stand for everything all the time. Okay. I had moments where I would look at some of these things going, okay, well, that's part of the ownership thing seems a little fair, but once it got to this, I go, okay, I'm done. I'm done thinking this stuff is fair. I'm done having an open mind of what the owner's intentions are. The owners were more concerned with getting over on the players than getting baseball back first. It was, yeah, we want baseball back, but can we shave a bunch of these guys

at the very top? And it kind of reminds me like how annoying people can be, right? If you're a guy that loves a band and their third album sucks because it was with an acapella group out of a nursing home and they're like, yeah, you know, third album doesn't suck, dude. You just don't get it. Like, no, that album sucks and it's okay. It can be your favorite band and you can still think that album sucks. If you love Robert De Niro, you don't have to say Dirty Grandpa is awesome. And I, who I would like to say is on the player's side, can find times where I go,

you know what, what the owners did there was actually fair. And that part of it is okay. And this player said this, and even though I'm on the player's side, I don't like the way the player handled these comments, and I think he specifically is wrong. And there's not enough of that. So congrats to me, but there isn't enough of that.

There isn't enough of the nuance to go, here's how I generally feel about this particular argument, but I can see something on the other side that I actually think is productive and I can agree with. and I can agree with. The problem is that once you're able to dig through all of this, the owner's first volley was so insulting that whatever the players asked for back is just going to drag this whole thing out. But it still would not lead me to believe, at least today, that there will be no season.

Because today is very different than what the actual real we- to have a decision day is. So until we know what that actual drop dead date is, and that's why deadlines actually work, there's a reason deadlines exist, until I know what the deadline is, and they can say what it is, but what the real deadline is in this past, then I'm still going to have hope they can have baseball. We'll get with Todd Walker here in a second, but during this time of change, we want you to know that ZipRecruiter's focus hasn't changed. They're still doing what they've always done, helping people find work and helping businesses

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So now I'm just in the cycle. This isn't the best story I've ever told, so I'm going to keep moving. They are dedicated to helping you get hired. That's what ZipRecruiter does. From caretaking to delivering food and goods to building medical facilities, supplying protective equipment,

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Keep moving forward. Let's work together. ZipRecruiter.com slash work together. 12 years in the bigs, an LSU guy, one of the biggest home runs in college baseball history and a 2003 season with the Boston Red Sox, Todd Walker. Okay, he's a guy I've been lucky enough to get to know. We always kind of joke, or at least probably I joke more about it. It would have been great if I had known him in 2003

when we both lived in Boston. He was on the Red Sox. But it did work out that we ended up becoming friends after the fact. And it's Todd Walker who played second base for that 03 team. Obviously an LSU guy as well. So I want to talk mostly about that 03 season because it is something that we've talked about. But then also your thoughts on some of the proposal stuff at the end of this. So you were with Minnesota a bunch of years. You ended up in Colorado. You were with Cincinnati. They bring you over in 2003 and Ortiz, who was your boy, because you'd been in Minnesota a bunch of years together as well. He joins up in Boston in 2003.

Did you have any idea that you knew what you were getting into joining that team at that time in that city? Well, I had been traded, uh, what was that was that, 2002. I was with Cincinnati. I was coming back from Denver to back to my home in Louisiana driving. And I remember pulled over the side of the road sleeping, got a call, said I got traded to Boston for 2003. Now I knew that was a big jump, you know, from Cincinnati to Boston. I knew it was going to be a big deal. Mike Lansing had been traded out of Colorado so I could play second base, and he got traded over to Boston, and that was the end of his career. So for me, I kind of was a little spooked by the whole thing

because, as we all know, you live or die at Boston. And now looking back, I'm glad it worked out. It was a great experience for me, and you wouldn't want to play anywhere else if you have some success. But, yeah, I remember it being a little off. You know, I was a little shooken by it at first. But I was replacing Sanchez at second base, slick little fielder, you know. And so I was coming in as more of an offensive guy. And we had a record-breaking year, 2003, offensively.

We had Jason Peratek hit ninth that year. So that shows you Stratton Hickston hit seventh, Kevin Millar sixth. Yeah, David Ortiz was coming up. I think he had already been there a year maybe. So I knew him from the Minnesota days. And so there was some familiarity there. I knew Nomar Garcia-Para from working out in Arizona as well. Yeah, it's a stacked lineup.

And going through it, looking at it, you're hitting second most of the time. Billy Miller is in the lineup. Nomar, Manny, Ortiz, Veritech is hitting ninth, like you said. They start platooning a little bit more there with Grady. But as the season's going along, and you had a really nice stretch where you were in first place up until just about mid-June. So it wasn't like you, you know, wire to wire because you're still dealing with the Yankees in front of you

and this Yankees group there. But did you start to realize, like, every day you guys went to the park, like, you had a chance to be a really special team? Like, did you already to realize every day you guys went to the park, you had a chance to be a really special team? Did you already have that confidence, even though Theo had put a lot of these pieces together the previous year? Every year you feel like Boston has a chance to be special. So going in without really knowing the parts of the whole deal, I thought we were going to have a special year.

We had Pedro, Martinez, we had Manny Ramirez. We had some really good arms on the mound. And like we mentioned, probably one of the best offenses in the history of the game. So I think that going in, we were pretty excited. And the season played out that way. Now, I think we ended up only being the wild card. But as we all know, American League East is probably the toughest division in all of baseball year in and year out. So it was a tough run for us.

But we got in and were able to beat Oakland in five. And then, of course, we faced the Yankees in the American League Championship Series there in 2003 and took it to the wire. And it was disappointing. But, you know, we knew that we had something special from day one. All right, I have way more time to go here, so we can't just jump right into Game 7 in 2003 yet. So I'm going to back up a little because part of the rebuild for that year, too,

was the bullpen by committee, and I had just started doing a radio show then, and Theo came on and talked about about it and it didn't work. You know, it was Tim Lin. It was Embry. They ended up trading for Kim. They traded Shea Hillenbrand for Byung-Yung Kim. And then Kim started a handful of games. And then it was like, no, because I have to put them in the bullpen.

And so even though you have this offense and you have this record, the bullpen is still this kind of daily thing hanging over its head. Was, was that aware to you at the time that it wasn't just one closer that was blowing saves and maybe you didn't trust, but every game you didn't really know how the back innings were going to go. And for the first half of the season, it really didn't work out at all.

Yup. It didn't surprise me at all. The glaring, uh, first problem was that our rival had a key closer in Mariano Rivera and so you have to have that guy in the night and there are not many Mariano Rivera's out there but uh but he was comfortable in his spot he was accurate with his fastball especially that cutter and And he was confident.

And, you know, as a closer, that's what you got to have. We saw Kimbrell run through there a few years ago, kind of did the same thing. But you have to have a ninth inning guy. We didn't have that. And that worried me, yeah, all year long. Two things they didn't factor in. If you come over to Boston from any other club, there's clearly more pressure than anywhere you've been. And so when you come over, if you're beyond young Kim and have to get thrown into a closer

role, you're not comfortable. You're not confident. And even though he had the stuff to be a closer, it was very difficult to take on that role midway through the season. And the second thing is we had a lot of great honors. I mean, Timlin could flat out throw it. Williamson, Embry, these guys were great in the pen as they showed in the playoffs where they barely – I don't think they gave up a run.

And that was the big controversy at the end, but they didn't get put in the game. But the other thing is when you put a guy in the role of closer that's not used to it, they've got to get a situation where they've got to have time to feel comfortable as well, and that just doesn't work in Boston. It may work in most other places because there's not as much pressure, but in Boston, you just aren't going to be able to throw somebody in a closer role and just expect them to do what they're capable. What's your favorite Manny story from that year?

Right out of the gates, he wanted out. It was amazing amazing to me i was so fired up and excited to play for the boston red sox and all i was hearing from manny is i want to go somewhere else he had played in cleveland he was comfortable all those years and i don't know what the reasoning behind it was it may be it was just a negotiating ploy but uh that shocked me at first manny and i became pretty good friends early um Of course, he had a great time there. And I think now looking back, it might have just been a negotiating thing for him. But I think for Manny, there's a lot of things. One is, you know, every time we'd show up, I tell the story.

In spring training, we get there, I don't know, you got to be dressed and ready at like 9, 9 a.m. When the games start, they start usually around 1 o'clock, and it depends on if you're traveling or not, you know, how early you got to get dressed and get out of there. But if we're at home, for example, you know, you got to be dressed at 9, we get out on the field, take some BP. Every time I would drive up about 7.30 in the morning, Manny was already dressed in the cage with his boy,

just flipping him soft toss and, you know, BP every morning. So that clearly meant he got there before 7 a.m. every morning. And it was amazing to me to see a guy with that much success already putting that much work in. And so Manny, I think he comes across as aloof and, you know, kind of doesn't care. But I saw firsthand in spring training, he cares probably more than anybody I've ever seen. And clearly he had one of the greatest right-handed swings. People talk about sweet left-handed swing.

He had one of the sweetest right-handed swings that I had ever seen, not to mention the numbers that he put up. And really he takes baseball the way all of us should, and that was he kind of took it like there wasn't a care in the world. Like, you know, he didn't have any worries. And in baseball, it brings so much fear and anxiety and pressure and all this stuff that you pile on yourself. He didn't seem like he had any of it.

And that's why he had so much success. So you just show up and he's already saying he wants to. I'd always heard a story that his wife wanted him to be in another city. I don't know if I ever even met his wife, but I do know that that was the lingo early on. We had the same agent, Jeff Moorhead. Jeff had gone in multiple times of that spring training in 2003 to talk to John Henry and the guys and, and they got something done.

And so maybe that was the whole deal, but that could possibly be it. I know for a fact in baseball, you get outside pressure for sure. A lot of it is your decision, but there's a lot of pressure from wives, families, agents, other things that may, you know may get in your mind and make you decide to do something else. All right, so you go 95-67. You get the wild card. And the top teams in the American League that year were nuts because I think Seattle ended up at like 93 wins. Oakland's a 96-win team.

The Yankees are six ahead of you. They went 101. And you're rolling into the playoffs and you feel like okay with Pedro this is different then you get down to Oakland and another side note there with Byung-hyun Kim is that he gets pulled with an out left in the ninth inning because at that time it seems like he's kind of done and then you guys come back to Fenway in that ALDS and he gives the finger to the fans as they boo him and then it was like okay okay Kim we're um I imagine you probably don't keep in touch with Pyongyang Kim you guys are you guys still connecting every now and then or no nope so you're right we went down to in the

Oakland for the first two games as the wild card team I they apparently had won their their side of the division and it was a day-night game. I mean, a night-day game, if you remember. So you play 162 games and we were down. We lost them both, of course. We were down 0-2 before we could blink. And it just didn't seem fair.

We played all year long, got to travel across the country, play a night game and then a day game. And if you remember in the night game, they dropped down a two-out bunt with a guy game and then a day game. And if you remember in the night game, they dropped down a two-out bunt with a guy on third to win that game. And then we had – so we lost by that way on the first night. And they come back the next day and have to recoup and get all your energy back up.

It was tough. It was tough. We lost that one as well. So we come back to Boston down 0-2. Bionion Kim had a rough year overall, needless to say. And, again, he was very capable. We saw what he did in Arizona. But he was thrown in a situation that was probably impossible to succeed

just because of the familiarity with the whole thing. And to be a good closer, you've got to have a lot of things going right. It's not just about throwing the baseball. And I think he had had enough. And I remember Todd Hundley, you know, hit a home run in Chicago, and he got booed anyway, and he flipped the fans off too. I think he was with the Mets maybe at the time. So emotions can get the best of you in the big leagues for sure.

That didn't help me on young Kim at all. But we were able to pull that out. You know, he won the next three. He tried to hit a big home run. David hit a big home all, but we were able to pull that out. You know, he won the next three. Todd had a big home run. David had a big home run. And we were off to New York. So that series is totally forgotten because of the 0-3 and then 0-4 and everything that happens after it.

And for you guys to come back against a really good Oakland team was incredible. Kim's left off the ALCS roster, which I think is important to kind of the buildup to what ends up happening in Game 6. But if you look at how you'd gone against the Yankees, I don't have the exact record, but you guys were back and forth. I mean, they had been the better team record wise. You split the first two in the ALCS. I was in the building. I was at Fenway for game three. It's one of the most intense. It's the most, it's one of those, it's hard to describe how different that game felt because it was so real. The hatred was real.

The fear on the Red Sox side was real. The superiority part of the Yankee side was real. And it was all earned. And it was unsettling. It was nasty. It was awesome. And Pedro had these games against the Yankees where I think it's a lot like the Red Sox familiarity with Mo Rivera, where they got to him a little bit more. And that's what happens in 04 because they've

seen him a million more times than anybody else has. And it was the same thing with some of these Yankees at bats where they just had seen Pedro so many more times that Pedro wasn't going to just plow through them like others. So as, as me, as you know, look, a mass kid and a Red Sox fan, I'm thinking, all right, Pedro Clemens, Pedro's down early. He's got the bases loaded. You're like, he's going to lose to Clemens in game three. Like I'm so sick of this shit, you know, and I'm just thinking about all the history. And then the Kareem Garcia thing happens where he clearly throws behind him, starts pointing to his head. If you go back and listen to the broadcast, Joe Buck and McCarver, McCarver's really losing it.

And then Clemens throws, it's not even high and tight to Manny. Manny seemed like he was kind of looking for a reason to be mad. He gets mad. And then that ends up with Zimmer charging at Pedro, which has always been replayed for years. Where are you throughout all of this in your, your mindset of like sitting in the dugout and seeing all this happen? And then being at second, obviously too, with the cream Garcia stuff. in the dugout and seeing all this happen and then being at second obviously too with the cream garcia stuff it was such a strange series ryan because if you remember johnny damon it collided with uh damian jackson yeah in oakland yeah and so after that he didn't play game one in new york

so without johnny starting the series in new york i felt like we're pretty much going to be down 0-2 before we head back to Boston. And if I remember correctly, we won game one and lost game two, something like that. But we went back to Boston 1-1. And then you're talking about game three where, you know, Pedro did the Hulk Hogan on Don Zimmer. And I think that's right.

And that didn't help the situation either. You mentioned Kareem Garcia getting the first base. Well, he came in the second. I still got a scar on my leg from him coming in and, you know, slicing me up, trying to turn up the double play. And that's when I kind of got in his face. And it just was a nasty series, which I loved. I loved it.

But you're right, Manny got thrown up. I think he was looking for a reason also. And that escalated. We went back to New York. We played those three games in Boston. We went back to New York, down 3-2, facing Pettit. And we had John Burkett on the mound.

So I didn't feel like that was a very good matchup for us either. And we won that game. Remember, we won nine to six. Now everybody starts to hit. I think Nomar had four hits. Manny had three or four hits. Everybody started hitting the baseball in game six of the ALCS.

So then on to game seven, tied 3-3. Okay. Can you, though, like put us in the dugout in game three? Because I don't think any of us really understand it. Are you guys just waiting to start something? Because I watched the video, and it looked like you were kind of just trailing the pile like a lot of people are. Ortiz goes for Manny. Pedro ends up kind of by himself.

And I don't think it's your hitting coach. I just think it's one of the bench coaches that's grabbing Pedro. What is going on out there? Because this wasn't a fake. And then you even had the bullpen situation where I think Jeff Nelson got into it with a Red Sox. It was a Fenway security guard who the cops put up against the wall. And it was clear that the security guard is saying like, hey, Nelson threw me to the ground or something. And then they kind of eat me to look. It's Boston cops of the Fenway security guard. So it wasn't like they're really going to arrest him.

What is that like in the dugout with everybody kind of trying to figure out, like, granted, we're trying to win this game. It's the ALCS, but this just has a different vibe to it than anything else. Some guys clearly don't think. You just react, and you get out there. Pedro was one of those guys. You get in the heat of the moment. You're not thinking.

I was far enough removed. To answer your question the dugout playing the New York Yankees we were pretty neutral you're not going after them or throwing at their head or right away trying to cause any any any you know you know damage but but once one little thing happens then the floodgates open when you're playing the New York Yankees as a as a Red Sox so for me I I was running down the tunnel matter of fact I had to go grab something out of the locker room and then I hear everybody in hysterics that they're on the field they're getting after so I turned around

and ran back through the through the tunnel back out onto the field and there's the melee but the first thing that went through my mind is it's game three and nobody wants to get thrown out because it's a pretty big series in the history of the sport so come on now let's let's let's let's not get thrown out I think that's why you see a lot of guys that are making movements forward but you know you don't want to get tossed and then in a very distant second is of course you don't want to get hurt either it's where you can't play so those were two thoughts that went through my mind but um some guys just you know are reacting and getting out there and getting after it i'm surprised that more people didn't get ejected and then banned from the rest of the series because that was a big deal that was a big ordeal um but not if i remember correctly i

don't think anybody maybe they got fined but i I don't think even Pedro got thrown out, did he? I can't remember. No, he was just, at that point, for the Zimmer thing, no, no. At that point, he was out of the game. He had had, you know, it was just a, I don't know. I'm going to go here and look at his innings because it wasn't a great Pedro outing for him. He had a big one in Game 7, though, so that's what I'm saying. I know he started

Game 7, so they didn't ban him from missing his next start. He ended up, the numbers aren't as bad as you would think. It's just, hey, in that spot, the bases are loaded, it was early, and on the Red Sox side of it, you're like, Clemens is going to get the win

for a quality start, two earned over six, and then you guys the on the Red Sox side of it you're like Clemens is going to get the win for a quality start two earned over six and then you guys only scored the three runs but it's just you're thinking Pedro at home series tied you like your chances and it just was one of those things where people were chipping away at him he'd given up more hits than you'd expect but he still went seven innings but the four earned when other times you're just used to him rolling all right so uh you lose game five game you mentioned, but the bats come alive, you score those nine runs, and then it's Pedro for game seven. I know that basketball has a mentality of what are we going to do in the huddle here? Football has a completely different mentality than I think in all the sports where there can be real speeches. What happens with

that kind of baseball game and those high stakes like you're all professionals it's Boston New York it's game seven of the ALCS it's it's Pedro Clemens again do you guys talk to each other in a different way I know you probably want to keep it normal so you don't feel added pressure but what is that moment like just the hours leading up to that kind of baseball game yeah you can't sleep for me I was I didn't sleep much the whole oakland series or boston series because i knew how important it was to everybody and it's important to me but i cared more about other people at the time so i wanted to you know if you remember we hadn't won a world series yet since 1918 so uh it was a pretty big deal to get this done this year. And we felt like we were going to win.

In fact, I remember thinking, whoever wins this series is going to win the World Series, of course, because we're playing the Marlins. Come on. Whoever wins this is going to get it done. And if you put Pedro up against Clemens, I would always say, I've watched thousands of baseball games, I would tell you, whatever starter gets banged out first, that team usually loses. And so we had all the odds in our favor in game seven. Pedro was throwing great. So great, in fact, that the controversy came up at the end. But I felt like we were fairly relaxed.

In the big leagues, you learn to deal with pressure enough that we were able to downplay the situation to be able to just step out on the field and play. And I remember some guys, you know, warmups, you know, cracking jokes and trying to, you know, make everybody feel a little more comfortable. And, you know, we got off to a great start too. We, for what, seven or eight innings, we were in control by, if I remember, five to two in the eight. Yeah, Clemens gets run after three, which was like the best comeback for Red Sox fans after everything that had happened in game three. So he's run.

You're up 5-2 in the eighth. And Pedro, we just knew that there was a limit number there. I mean, he goes 120-plus pitches in this game. What were you guys saying to each other? Was anyone saying anything to each other as Grady leaves Pedro in there as Pedro's looking back at the dugout going, Hey,

what's the plan here? No, because he was our ace 16 million, I think, uh, $16 million. If you can put yourself in the mind of Grady little, uh,

if I'm going to lose, I'm going to lose with the best guy out there. And I can, you know, managing in the big leagues is all about what you can say after the fact that's why you see the platoon situations that's why you see the lefty matchups you know against lefties because if it blows up in your face you can say well i played it by the book and when i walked to the mound it was pedro our ace with all the money he was still throwing well jeter had inside out at an 0-2 pitch the other way.

Clearly could have been right at trot, but it goes over his head in right field. They played that game on ESPN the other night, by the way, so I got to relive all this. But I didn't think for one second he was going to take him out, to be honest. But the two things that I didn't have right in front of my face were the pitch count, like you mentioned, at 120-plus. That's crazy. And the fact that our bullpen had not given up anything.

You know, Williamson and Timlin and Embry and all the guys we had out there, they had to be feeling pretty confident at that point. And out of all the people, and I love Tim Wakefield, and he was our starter, and he did so well for Boston for so many years. people and I love Tim Wakefield and he was our starter and he did so well for Boston for so many years the only pitch that Aaron Boone's going to hit out is a floater up in there because he got thrown in the game you know to play defense at third and then well pinch hitter basically uh he was already in the game defensively but he came in to hit for the first time in that game and wasn't hitting well that's why I didn't start and I think any any kind of cutter from Timlin or a 95 96 from Williamson and Aaron Boone's just not going to be able to catch up to it so all these things you look at hindsight and think well we would have won if it were for all of that but you you know at the time I didn't think

anything of it and was clearly okay with Pedro staying in the game yeah I remember you know obviously like everybody in Boston, sitting at home, I had a radio show to do the next morning. I've got my notepad out and you get Nick Johnson, the Jeter hit, which was such a classic Jeter hit where you don't think he has a chance in the at-bat. It's 0-2 and he finds a way to stay alive, which, you know, that's the argument for Jeter

that I think he had to live with Jeter every day to understand that it was more, I, you know, there's arguments that he's overrated. I get that part of it. Um, no one ever was saying he was the best player of his generation, but there's just those kinds of moments with Jeter where I, you know, I saw enough of it to go. You you're scared of him. You know, you're not scared of the home run. You're scared of him just putting together the best at bat of anybody in the other lineup and then Bernie comes up so he's a switch hitter so I think I think I remember going over this they wanted to keep Bernie right handed and if he was going to face Bernie then it's like he had to face Hideki and then they

wanted to keep Posada right hand or excuse me they wanted to keep Bernie left-handed they wanted to keep Posada left-handed against Pedro as a righty. And that's when Pedro starts looking back in and then Williams, Matsui score. It's 5-5. Embry comes in. And you're right. I think what Grady was probably dealing with is that this bullpen had been a mess for the better part of a year. Kim went from starter to closer because it just wasn't working out. Kim's left off the roster. And even though Embry had picked it up and Timlin, who really was a terrific reliever for his career, Williamson had, I think, like a 60 RA.

But then Scott, who had been traded for as well, he was unhittable there for like the last month. And it always felt like Grady didn't care what the recent numbers had been, which was wrong. It was wrong to leave Pedro in at that pitch count, but it was almost like Grady could never get the months previously out of his head to trust any of those guys enough to replace Pedro in that spot,

especially when you looked at the way he wanted to keep the Yankees lineup. I'm not excusing it, but I've always felt like there's a better understanding of it than Grady's the dumbest human being on earth, which I know plenty of people think is actually the case. Well, that's a great point, Ryan. And that's something nobody really thinks about is what he had to deal with all year long with the bullpen, watching a guy like Scott Williamson struggle all year long. Because keep in mind mind Scott Williamson was a closer with Cincinnati Reds for a lot of years going 96 97 nasty nasty forkball and so I kind of thought when he was with us that year why don't they give Williamson

that job but again you've got to give it to him in April or May and let him work through everything so when we get to this point in October, he's comfortable and confident and he knows what he's doing because he clearly had the stuff. But they didn't let him do it. Timlin wasn't a closer, but he was, like you said, he was a great reliever for most of his career. Certainly could have fit in that role. And then Embry was the same guy, you know, from the left side.

Yeah, Hideki hit the double down the line. And Masada hit a looping you know just seeing eye single right in center field between me, Nomar and Johnny and scored the two that tied at five. I came up against Rivera and felt really good in that at bat I got jammed also

but mine goes right to Soriano for the third out or whatever you know with Millard with the winning run on second base and so it's now you're talking about luck you're talking about just lucky Soriano for the third out or whatever, you know, with Millard with the winning run on second base. And so it's now you're talking about luck. You're talking about just lucky. And we were unlucky in game seven. The great part about this, which is never going to be something that anybody, you know, cares about is like I felt like with Wakefield, who had a really good year, he's asked to do everything again. He comes in, he gets through the 10th clean

and then Boone leads it off, hits the walk-off home run. I'm instantly miserable again. What do you remember the most, whether it's, you know, packing up your stuff, going back to the clubhouse, getting on the bus, getting out. I imagine you guys got out of there that night and didn't want to stay in New York and then ending back up in Boston. What do you remember the most over those next few hours? Well, again, keep in mind, we thought whoever won this series was going to win the whole thing, the World Series. The Yankees go on and lose to the Marlins. So that was a little comforting for us because the Marlins were better than everybody thought that year. But it's hard to register when Aaron Boone, I think it was the first pitch off Wakefield,

came in the game, bottom of the 11th or whatever it was, first pitch gone. It's hard to register in your mind what just happened. So, you know, when that typically happens with no outs, you're still out on the field and you play it out. It was hard to imagine the game was over at that point. Then everything starts flowing, you know, where, you know, we've lost an opportunity. You know, this might have been our best chance to win it all. Of course, the Red Sox win it the next year, but we didn't know that.

We had built something that I think they were able to capitalize on the next year, but it was just devastating. We go back in the locker room everybody's crying you know it's it's uh it's uh people think that big leaguers don't care I saw in that locker room that there was a lot of a lot of people that were you know and you you again like I mentioned earlier you care for yourself but I think the disheartening thing is we had let the city of Boston down and we felt that. And I saw that because we get on a plane, we go back to Boston, we get on the bus and we're traveling back to Fenway. That's where they drop everybody off after road trips. Me and Pedro are talking. Pedro's in the front seat with his wife.

I'm in the second seat with my wife. So we're kind of rehashing everything and talking about the future. But I look out when we're in Boston, it just, the city looks trashed. It looks like people have thrown stuff everywhere. And then it hit again that, you know, this was a big deal, and we didn't get it done. And so I think that hit me hard when I got back. And then the next day it hurts even worse. So it was a tough

week you know after we had lost in 2003 and uh again we didn't know what the future holds held so went for the team so I think that would have been a little more comforting to know that they'd win it what four more times after that or four times after that um but it was a tough week how hard was it for you because you're gone the next year. They put Bellhorn in there and then they win it. How tough is that? Well, so Theo Epstein and I had a conversation after the season. I think it might have been the next day right there in the back bay. And I was a free agent for the first time. So after six years of service, you can become a free agent where you can pick and choose where you want to play and for how much.

And I just come off the playoffs that I did that year where I hit five home runs and played well defensively. And so I was thinking that I was going to get a better opportunity somewhere else after the conversation I had with Theo, which was, you know, we're looking at some other guys, Pokey Reese, you know, Bellhorn to come. I don't know if he mentioned Bellhorn, but they were looking at some other guys to play second base, and it would be a platoon situation for me again. And I felt like I deserved better because I had a big year in 2003. So I still would have signed back if the opportunity was right,

but then he was offering me what Billy Miller made that year who had won the batting title uh it was what two years four million and it's a lot of money and you know but you know when you're in that situation you got to figure out what the best opportunities are and for me at the time that was half wasn't it wasn't that almost like half of what you were making no No, no. I think I made – I thought you were a three. I was into my four-year deal with the Colorado Rockies, so I think it was more like three and a half. Yeah, it was.

Yeah, it was a pay cut for sure. And I had a big year with one of the best teams in baseball and in pressure situations. So I felt like I'd go out in the free agent market and do much, much better than what Theo was offering. But he did. baseball and in pressure situations. So I felt like I'd go out in the free agent market and, you know, do, do, do much, much better than what Theo was offering. But he did. I remember him saying, look, if we win the world series in 2004, I'll give you a million dollar bonus as well. So that would have made the deal two years, 5 million. Yeah. But at the time.

Yeah. Right. I mean, you're thinking, nah, that ain't, you know, come on. I can't even consider that. So I turned down the socks in December. Now I became an unrestricted free agent, go out in the market, and I get three different deals for two years for. So it was collusion at its best, and we proved it, and I got a check for a couple hundred grand or something because of it, settlement or whatever. But it still pretty much, you know, doomed me in the free agent market that year.

I ended up signing with the Cubs for two years, five. I think we pushed it to five million instead of four for the two-year deal, and I played for the Cubs for three years. So it worked out fine in terms of getting a play for a team that's lateral to the Boston Red Sox. Playing in Wrigley Field was a lot of fun. And they had just lost with the Bartman hole issue the same way we pretty much lost.

So I felt like going into 2004, the Cubs were the team that was going to win it all, having not won it since 2008 with Kerry Wood and Mark Fryer and all these guys that they had over there. So I felt like that was my best chance overall. So as you watch all this stuff, as a former player now, I'm sure your side of it is full player, but what do you think is the most important thing to understand

about them trying to figure out a CBA here on the fly and actually play a season this year? Yeah, I think we focus on the millionaires, the guys that are making $10 million, $ 20 million, Bryce Harper, those type of guys. And they're what they say about it. And, you know, fans start to say, well, they're giving me a break. You know, they're making all this money and they don't want to play. But the truth is, I think I saw the stat the other day, 65% of the big leaguers are making

less than a million dollars, which is still a ton of money to a lot of people. But I think for those that say, you know, they're greedy and, you know, they have some negative thoughts about the whole situation. I know for a fact that if they were put in that situation, that they would think differently, you know, and you'd really think about the money and the chance that you might get hurt and never play again, the chance, you know, that you got to go out there and play and not do well and hurt your chances of getting a big contract somewhere down the line now that's clearly all the risk you take in a full real season but we're not talking about a full real

season here talking about two different states uh you know where they they might play without fans which that affects you as well as a player it shouldn't but we're all human and when you look out when you're used to playing in front of 40,000, 50,000, and you're playing in front of none, a bunch of silver seats, it's difficult. And so I'm not siding with the players. I think that they should play because I feel like baseball has an opportunity to make the country feel like we're at least back on the right track. And the first way that's going to happen is to start playing live baseball games again.

I don't think that's a reason to sign anything. And they're setting a precedence for years to come. So anytime you've got some deal worked out, any kind of deal that we do in this country, you know, you set a precedence for the future. And so they've got to take that into consideration as well. Ultimately, I think they'll get something done and they'll play an 80-game season or whatever. But, you know, we'll see.

I'm going to leave you with this. Again, I didn't know Todd at all when we were there, Covener. I was in the locker room a little bit, but I was a radio host, so it wasn't like I was even supposed to be there. I remember the first time me, it wasvin winner holden kushner we had this morning radio show in 2003 and we all went right to the locker room after a game and glenn geffner ran at us like we were three kids that broke in and you know we weren't beat guys so we weren't really even beat guys were looking at us kind of like what are you even doing here and it was an

amazing amazing locker room and again we didn't have to be in there but we just wanted to like we wanted to have the experience and go through it and growing up for it and then in 04 you did a chat and some espn stuff and you sounded really salty about not being on the team so i remember reading it and then criticizing you on the air on my local show being like what's todd walker so salty about and we reached out to your agent and we were like well does he want to come on and talk about it and your agent said yeah, yeah, no problem. And I asked you the first question. I go, look, I read through this stuff. Like you seem like you're just sort of bitter that you're not on the team. And your answer was, yeah, you're right. I am. And I loved you immediately.

And you just, it was so sincere and honest. And it was the opposite of everything that we get with athletes. So often we were like, yes, I'm'm sad i'm not on this team this team's awesome and yeah like i i'm i sound better because i am a little bit i wish i were on the team yeah i think sadness is probably a better word than yeah right yeah i'm sorry but you know what i mean i think i think we're talking about after the 2004 season correct yeah and Yeah, and it wasn't really nasty or wasn't anything like that. You've got to remember, too, I'm a 20-something Boston guy at that point

going like, hey, the Red Sox just won the World Series. What's Todd Walker think he's doing? Which is pretty classic and predictable. And you're right, it wasn't nasty. It wasn't any of those things. And I felt like I was challenging you and all you did was say, yes, you're right. I sound that way because that's how I feel like I am upset because I wish I could have been a part of this and knowing that

you and Ortiz had come through Minnesota together and all those things and as soon as you answered it that way I was like oh my god this guy's awesome so that was kind of the point that I there was a there was a few things there Ryan one was we finished the 2004 season and for the Chicago Cubs it didn't work out the way I thought it might and for Boston watching them go down 0-1, 0-2, 0-3 to the New York Yankees and then turn it around and come back I yeah I was I was sitting there watching all that going wow that'd be fun to be a part of that right now and I think that was the extent of it the other thing that you're talking about is I did like a two-hour chat up in Bristol I was up there doing it online.

Out of two hours, you're picking like one or two guys that came at me. And I went back, you know, like, hey, why don't you just go mow your lawn or something like that. I remember exactly what you're talking about. So it wasn't all sadness and bitter. It was a few guys that I had to deal with. And what we should know as big leaguers is you let things just roll off your back and you know, what's true and what's right. But in the end, yeah, I mean, it was pretty sad that all my teammates from 2003 were able to celebrate like that. And I was really, I don't know who else was gone beyond Kim, maybe. No, he was still on the team.

But oh, he was. I know. I was looking all this stuff up. I had almost forgotten. Yeah. So, everybody that, you know, I bled and cried with in 2003, I was the only one that wasn't around. So, look, now 20 years later, whatever it is, looking back, I'm extremely happy for all those guys.

And, you know, when some time passes, you kind of get perspective. But at the time at the time yeah i was just kind of i was sad that it didn't work out for us with the cubs like i thought it would and and the other team that i just left and giving up anybody would be sad if you gave up a million dollars right so i i'd given up a million dollars and a ring so yeah that that that was a dagger hey i'm telling you'm on your side. I'm on your side now with it. Ryan, we've been friends for 20 years. I know you're on my side. I'm on your side too. My dad says hello.

He always appreciated you bringing us to Ortiz's last game. And hopefully I get to see it, whether it's down in Baton Rouge or maybe you head out west here, man. So stay safe. And by the way, we always kid with each other. Of course, the Jacob Hester show, like I said, come on, man. You can't hate clean up. And then I said a bunch of nice things about you,

and he didn't tell you any of it. So he played the one part where I was like, you know, you're not going to hate clean up for us. But, of course, I was kidding on that too. But I know you know that. But anyway. No, man was kidding on that too. But I know you know that. But anyway. No, man. No, no need.

I knew Hester was trying to start stuff between us. But it's good to catch up, man. Yeah, you too, Ryan. Yeah, give me a shout. Hopefully when the football season rolls around, we can hook up again.

I hope you guys enjoyed that. Please subscribe, rate, and review to the pod. Spread the word. And on Sunday, Bill and I will be doing a Redraftables 2005, the Chris Paul-Duron Williams draft. Chris Paul is so good. I'll leave you with that.

Have a great weekend. you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you