The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Watson to Miami Rumors and Tua’s Future With Jeff Darlington, Plus a Look Back at “The War,” Hagler-Hearns, With Bob Arum and Don Stradley

Episode Date: October 22, 2021

Ryen opens with some NBA talk, including how impressed he is with the Hawks and their depth, before getting a ruling on a pickup hoops encounter (0:44). Next, he chats with ESPN NFL reporter Jeff Darlington about the rumors that Deshaun Watson was close to being traded to the Dolphins, how it would be received in Miami, and what Tua’s future looks like (11:04). Then, he looks back at maybe the greatest boxing fight ever, “The War” between Hagler and Hearns, with legendary boxing promoter Bob Arum and author Don Stradley (30:24). Finally, he closes it out with some listener-submitted Life Advice questions (1:33:15). Host: Ryen Russillo Guests: Jeff Darlington, Don Stradley, and Bob Arum Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Loaded podcast. I mean, I'm not lying this time. Usually, they're pretty deep. We have a special edition of The War, Hagler-Hearns, 1985. Greatest fight I've ever seen. Hopefully, you watch it. If you didn't, check it out.

Take 15 minutes of your time. Don Stradley is the author of the book, The War, that just came out. Bob Arum, who promoted a bunch of Hagler fights, promoted Hagler-Hearns in 1985. So we're going to get the backstory on the book and then the actual fight from Arum's perspective. Some great stories in there. We'll do life advice at the end. And Jeff Darlington

on what's going on with Deshaun Watson. Is he going to end up becoming a part of the Miami Dolphins before the trade deadline and a little NBA open? The first week of the NBA season, there's some fake stuff and there's some real stuff. I think Milwaukee, I would put more into the Nets game than I would against Miami, other than Miami. Maybe they're going to be really good. Before we did the season over-unders, I think Miami's going to be good. But I was like, with the age of Butler and Kyle Lowry, how much are those guys going to push? Are they going to pace them a little bit? But the thing

is, is Butler and Lowry aren't really pace guys. And they put it on Milwaukee last night. But I still think Milwaukee has so much shooting now. And we already know how it plays out. We know all their pieces. There's still going to be offensive concerns in the playoffs for me a little bit. Even going back to this past season when they won a title, they were the 11th best team on offense. So these are all longer-term things, but Milwaukee might be really nasty. And I'm going to put more into the game against Brooklyn than I would against Miami, but that's not dismissing Miami. The Lakers thing, it can't be that bad.

Golden State, that was an incredible game. I have a big Steph topic that I want to do next week, but here's something that I think is very real, and that's Atlanta. Their depth is absurd. Whether it's Trey, DeAndre Hunter, Bogdanovich, and then Collins Capella, which is kind of the five,

they have DeLon Wright who they picked up. Cam Reddish looked terrific last night. Really aggressive. Great first step. Shot looked all right. Don't forget Kev, Kevin Herter, Solomon Hill, who for whatever reason I always kind of like, but I know I shouldn't. Gorgie Jang, a backup big. Kongu's coming back in a couple months. Danilo didn't play last night.

Then they got two first round picks from Jalen Johnson and Sharif Cooper. Jalen, who may be away from Duke, he's going to look better. I didn't love what I saw at Duke. He was not afraid to shoot during garbage time last night. And then Sharif Cooper, who's the point guard who is probably as much fun to watch with a ball in his hands and his passing is terrific as long as he doesn't shoot. Because I thought his shot was one of the worst that I'd seen from any of the first round draft prospects. And that's still with Lou Williams. Luau Camberow could play as well. This is a really, really deep basketball team. It's hard to be this deep in the NBA. And granted, they'll still have some decisions to make, but there's two parts to it.

They are incredibly adaptable. If they want to go big, they can stay big. If they want to go small, they have multiple big size wings. I mean, Herter's even a big guy beyond Reddish and Hunter who are big dudes. So now you have some switchability with your perimeter guys. You have shot makers everywhere. I don't know who's going to end up getting all the minutes, but it's a really good problem to have. And I don't know what to do with the top of the East because it's probably

going to be week by week. I still know who the favorites are, but how many other teams are you going to put at the level of the top two or three teams when you think the other two or three teams are right? And that still includes Philadelphia and whatever version of this mess is going to end up being sorted out as, and then the Nets and all their problems. But at least Milwaukee feels real about that group.

So whether it's Atlanta or Miami getting into there, and I'm not ready to put Boston in that. I wasn't before the season. So we're going to have to see a little bit more. I also think Atlanta is worth at least paying attention to on the trade front. Again, I don't know who the player is. I don't know what the package would be, but they have options. Atlanta has a ton of options. And if they play better defense consistently, Canadian pronunciation over the course of a regular season that we saw last year, I mean, maybe this is that playoff experience

thing where they tasted, they felt it. And now now they were going to see another level of this team consistently over the course of the season. But I'm really impressed, although Trey did get three total bullshit calls again, which drives me fucking crazy. Sorry. All right. I have a question for you guys.

I was shooting around the other day. It was two days ago, day off, off day. So I was getting some shots up. Feet cramp up immediately. Awesome. And there was a guy at the other end for anybody who's ever you know spent a life shooting hoops still probably my favorite thing to do ever um you just if there's another guy at the end of the court you always look at the other guy right you always kind of size him up a little bit at least that's what i do and maybe maybe i'm not you're right fucking lunatic but yeah you'll you'll look at him because when i was younger it

would always end up being like i would never i usually would never ever ask the other person the other person would come down you'd be like hey do you want to play one-on-one right and you know it's happened to me certainly a lot more when i was younger and i had the free time to shoot around and all that kind of stuff but i used to love being in Boston just getting shots up or whatever and then more often than not the person who comes down to say hey do you want to play one-on-one that I've always noticed is the better players usually don't do that not that I'm some great basketball player but it's usually always the guy like sometimes with me it'd be like a dad he's wearing i'm talking like my 20s yeah yeah right and you know and you're kind of like what like you want to play like i kind of poked my eyes over

you and clearly you looked at me a little bit and then you know it's not like i'm some fucking intimidating d1 guy at six six or something and i would just be like all right fine you know i'll play a little bit let's go and then sometimes there's been times where a guy was like hey do you want to play and i I'm just like, no. He just sized it up immediately. And you're like, all right, this isn't happening. I don't know if this guy listens to the podcast or not. I kind of hope he does because I'm fascinated by him. But I'm

shooting around and I'm like hobbling by myself. So that wasn't a great sign. And he's younger. He was black. He was really good size, whatever, he was decent size. I'm not saying he was really tall,

but you could tell he was an athlete. Just the way he moved with the basketball. You can watch anyone move just 10 feet and you can basically be like athlete, not an athlete. He had the worst shot. I think I've seen anyone who's allowed to own a basketball ever.

The worst form I've ever seen on a jumper. I don't think I've ever seen. Other than people who don't know how to play basketball or a five-year-old who's not quite figured it out. This was a grown man who was throwing the ball at the rim like he was throwing a soccer ball into the field of play i've never seen anything like this like full-blown ball goes back to the shoulder blades and then just flicks it i think the ball was out before it even like went past his forehead and he yeah i mean it was going behind the backboard, like in the air, it would clank, it would hit the side. I mean, I would, I started peeking down because I couldn't

believe it. I thought it was a skip. I was like, there's no way this is real. And I was like, oh my God, this is real. And he had the earbuds in, he was feeling himself. He would dribble and he would kind of give a little hesitation against an air defender. You know, he was, he was doing everything. and then as soon as the shot went up you were just like holy shit this is unbelievable so whatever we didn't talk no one asked the other guy to play one-on-one i would have said no but i had to leave the court by his end to get back to my car and he was standing two feet out of bounds pulling up like he was actually doing that like he couldn't make anything and he goes why don feet out of bounds pulling up. He was actually doing that.

He couldn't make anything, and he goes, why don't I try from 35 feet? And he was at what would be the coach's box on a real NBA court, out of bounds, and he threw it up, and of course that one went in just as I was passing him, and he gave me a look like what's up clutch gene and then yeah and then put his head down so he hit the shot

and was so happy that I was near him that he did look at me and was like you know gave me kind of a tough guy like what's up stared and then put his head down to like go retrieve the ball like I got more work to do and I love it I love it I retrieve the ball. I got more work to do. And I love it.

I love it. I wish it was filmed. I'd interview him. It was unbelievable. Did you immediately at that point want to play him one-on-one more because of that? Just to be like, I got to put you in your place, dude. I know you hit this shot, but this ain't who you are. No, I didn't.

I didn't want anything else to do with it. You just need to get out of that because he probably would yeah he probably would have called fouls and stuff you know or he would have dribbled out like he would we would have had to have a shot clock on him in one-on-one just would dribble dribble dribble dribble and then usually whenever i play one-on-one against somebody who doesn't know me and i would just get sick of playing i'd be like all right we're just going we're going down to the post and this we're going to end this and then some guy'll be like whoa you're really you're really taking this seriously like well you fucking asked to play like what are we doing here um he was i was i would there's no

way i would have played against him no way reckless i would have ended up hurt fouls called i don't know what would have happened it wouldn't have been good he's the worst shooter i've ever seen in public i'm not exaggerating i'm happy for him there's nothing like one long one long range make after 20 to 25 straight misses and and somebody saw him good for you dude he can go home and like jump on the xbox and play 2k and feel good because there's nothing like that one long range make after a ton of misses, especially if there's somebody kind of lurking around doing their own thing. But you're like, is he watching?

Did he just watch me miss 22 shots? You have to make one. He probably went home after he saw you left, honestly. The look he gave, because I knew it. Walking by, I'm like, he's standing out of bounds. What the hell is this guy doing? And it was perfect timing for him. And then I go, guaranteed. And in my head, I was like, I's standing out of bounds. What the hell is this guy doing? And it was perfect timing for him. And then I go, guarantee.

And in my head, I was like, I bet this one goes in. And it did. And then he looked at me. It was like disdain, just dismissive. It was like there was a younger black version of Philip Seymour Hoffman from a long game, long game poly. And he just starts. I've never seen anybody miss. Like, it's one thing, A, air ball,

rim, hit the backboard. We're talking if these were field goals, a couple of them would have been off. So I don't salute to him. The thing is now with this podcast, whenever I do anything that's a little close to the neighborhood,

everybody always finds out. We had that huge dilemma when I went on the Woj Pod and talked about playing pick-up hoops with guys. They get really pissed about that one. What are you supposed to do? All right. I don't know what the ruling is on that one. That's just a story I wanted to share.

Let's talk football and then boxing. NFL reporter Jeff Darlington at ESPN joins us. He did spend, how many years were you on the Miami Dolphins beat? I think I did seven seasons. Like probably, I think 2005 until I went to NFL Network in like 20, I guess 2011, like six seasons. Okay. All right. So you're going to know the story, at least from the Miami angle as well as most.

So let's go through the timeline here again. We know Deshaun's been suspended from the Texans. There's still this ongoing investigation. I just want to clear this up because I think a lot of this stuff gets lost. Tony Busby, who was the lawyer for a bunch of the clients in the complaints, 21 civil complaints against Deshaun Watson. He has said that 10 of his clients have been investigated by the NFL, an 11th that's scheduled. So at least on the NFL side of that, I know people were like, hey, what's going on? What's going on? What's going on? I don't know if the NFL is doing it right or wrong, but at least that tidbit, I feel like never gets brought up anymore.

And we know that teams are going to want Deshaun. It's just a matter of price. I mean, we can pretend he's never going to play again. If these things are true, he's probably going to play again at some point. So let's get to where we're at now, because on Wednesday, it seemed like it was a certainty, at least on social media. But there's a little bit more to that because the Wednesday story that he was on the move to Miami and then maybe two would go to Denver. The Eagles have been mentioned in this a little bit. So help us clean this up, Jeff, as we sit here on a Friday and some of this Wednesday stuff has already been tempered. Right. I mean, that's the tricky part about this story that it is so fluid, but I don't get the

sense that much has changed since earlier in the season, except for the fact that now Houston is more incentivized because of the trade deadline to unload him. So if they can find a suitor to go ahead and send him off, that's great. But you mentioned the civil suits that are against him. The problem with all of this is that no team has been able to A, convince Houston to put conditions on the trade that would protect them, or B, get any kind of clarity from the NFL or the legal side of it to understand exactly where this is headed. So that complicates it to a degree that I truly don't know how you get the deal done, given all of this massive cloud with all of these different layers hovering over the whole thing. Okay, but isn't that kind of the

point is that maybe the team looks at it in the uncertainty and says, we're getting a potential top five quarterback still who's really young, who's under contract, and if the price is down, it's as delicate as this is. Go ahead. But no, that's the problem though, Ryan, is that is the price down? Houston's looking at it saying, what incentive do we have to trade him right now when his value ultimately, once there is clarity, will go up? I mean, that's the reason teams aren't trading for him is because of this lack of clarity. So if they get that, then all of a sudden you've got a bidding war. Now, the other side of this is that Deshaun has only told the Texans he's willing to go to Miami.

That's the only team he signed off on. And the wildest part about all of this is Deshaun Watson with this legal situation hovering over him actually holds all the leverage because of the no trade clause. So everybody has that. Yeah, exactly. For sure. Right. He has a no trade clause which you know again is not it's not that common right i mean it's decently common with these franchise guys right we just i mean if you took the whole legal situation out of it and like because other than that mrs lincoln how was the show like it's a pretty massive situation but this would have been resolved at the time of the draft, because you would have had the teams come to the table who wanted Deshaun, and Deshaun ultimately

would have picked from those teams and said, I'll go there. And Houston would have pulled the trigger. But because of the legal situation that couldn't have been more untimely, here we are. Okay. So what's your understanding of where this is now? So my understanding is that teams have reached out to the NFL to say like, hey, what's the deal here? What's going on? And more than one team has done this. Can you give us any sort of, even a wink, like anything?

And so all of us are out, you know, in the public, you're sitting here saying, well, the NFL is not doing anything. Well, guess what? The teams are saying the same thing. And I'm not holding that against the NFL because like you said, we don't know exactly what's going into this, but they have been a brick wall, not only to us, but also to interested teams. They're just saying, Hey man, you're just going to have to wait, you know, and they're not giving them any kind of tip off to say,

you go ahead and sign them. They'll probably end up on the commissioner's exempt list in a month or so. And then it'll probably end up with a six game suspension. They're not saying that. And as a result, there's that's, that's the, where the brick wall is between the Texans, the potential suitors and Deshaun Watson himself.

Steven Ross, the Dolphins owner wants him though. Correct. So that's been reported. I don't know. I know Ryan. And this is one of those tricky things because you know we could talk about this all day like certain people i know florio has been

one to say ross wants and ross wants them i'm not one to go and dispute people and their sources because you know we've all got them we know how what happens there i've been told adamantly that that he is not the driving force on this that that this is coming more from the football side of things than it is from ownership. I understand why people are skeptical of everything that they're hearing right now, but I can only tell you what I'm hearing, and I do believe that to be the case.

I'm not saying that Ross would negate it. I'm just saying that he is not, from my understanding, the driving force on it. Okay, all right. Now, and this is always interesting too, and we were talking a little bit about this before, but you're a national guy But you're a national guy. You're a local guy.

There are times when the local guy has a piece of information because he's so close to it. This is kind of where this one started, right? It was Denver's getting a new quarterback, meaning Tua. And Tua was going to be flipped to Denver. And then Houston was going to get picks. I mean, that's where it was on Wednesday, at least on social media, which again, it seems to not be the case now, 48 hours removed. But there's always this,

we were talking about, because I do think this is interesting because fans get so freaked out about it all the time. There's more of an incentive to tell the national source something than the local source, unless that local source is so locked in with the team, which they usually are more locked in because they're around it every single day.

But I've always felt like the front office, you know, it's like, why do I want to tell the local guy? Because if I want to leak something, I want the national guy to be on TV and tell everybody this player is available or we're cutting off talks because all of us that are ever given information are usually being used to some sort of leverage. So that's the key here. And I would also, um, I would also say the tricky part of this is when you have so many cogs, so many different, you have different teams involved. You know, I find a lot like it's around the draft time as a reporter. You know, if someone's going to tell me something, uh, generally speaking, there's one of two reasons. The first of which is they want it out there because it's not true and it's

a smokescreen. The second of which is they trust that I'm not going to report it. So like, no matter what you have there, you don't necessarily get the truth. And that's what makes this so complicated is that you're going to have people. And again, I'm not trying to like rip anybody's sources here or anything like that, because I'm in it too. I'm right in the middle of it as well, but you just, it's so difficult to know, okay, if, if Houston right now is saying that a trade trade's going to happen or someone out of Houston, like John McClain, who's wildly respected is saying that a trade's going to happen. Well, you know, the signals go up to like, okay, is that just them

trying to create leverage so that other teams come to the table and not just Miami so they can find out what the best offer is going to be? And I'm not trying to say that McLean's being used, but it enters our minds

as, you know, cynical people. Yeah, and you know what? And I should say that again. Not all information that we get is about leverage, something like this though, specific to, that's right. Hey, we're going to trade this guy very shortly. It in a much lesser degree, we saw that with Stefan Gilmore and the Patriots as a recent example, right? He was cut on a Monday morning and nobody could quite figure out. And then it was like, Oh no, wait, they have until the next day to trade him.

So that was the last kind of like, it was basically a commercial for the Patriots, meaning we have a player here that we're probably going to cut, but let us know this is your last call here. Because I shouldn't say that it's all leverage, because that's not true. Because there are conversations I'm sure you've had with guys that are with a team that are just kind of telling you how something is.

Because you built that relationship up. They trust you. They know you're not going to repeat it. There's plenty of basketball stuff that I talk with people about where you just go, Hey, this guy likes me. He knows you can trust me. We're just talking. He set me straight on something. He may have heard me say something like, Hey, here's actually kind of what's going on. So you'll know, you'll know moving forward what not to say, but with say the Ben Simmons deal, if I talk to the Simmons camp or if I talk to the Sixers, I know whatever I'm getting on that story is only going to be about making the one side. Right. So that those there, there's just general conversation that you're lucky enough. If you get, you know, enough years in the business that you're going to have. And it just have guys

be like, Hey man, here's something you should know. But yes, a story like Deshaun information on this one where denver all of a sudden like there was a denver reporter saying hey we got a new quarterback coming to denver and you're like whoa this is this is pretty heavy and then you're thinking okay wait like are we really is two are going to be a bronco in november it's it's dude it's it's pretty complicated and the funny part about it is like then there's another layer involved here and i don't know how inside baseball we're going here, how boring this is or not, but like the Charles Robinson reporting about Deshaun Watson in training camp.

I mean, he was getting blasted. And honestly, everything he reported was true. Like, I'm sorry. The Miami Dolphins were the most interested team in Deshaun Watson, and that Deshaun Watson was mostly interested in Miami. And that was true. And it, I mean, to a degree, it remains true.

Philadelphia certainly still lingers out there. And there are teams that are interested, but those are the most interested. And you find, you have, I saw it firsthand. Like fans were just crushing Charles over the report. And it's like the other layer of this is that fans don't necessarily sometimes want to hear the truth. I went through it with Tom Brady when I said he was going to leave New England. Patriots fans were like, who the fuck is this guy? Who's he to tell us what's going to happen to Tom Brady? It's like, just because you don't want to believe me doesn't mean it's not true. And I think that there's a layer of that too, where Dolphins fans were like, no, no, no, no, you're not taking Tua from us. He's our guy. And, and, and we're, we're, we're, we're neglecting this report because we don't want it to be true.

Now that it's happened, who was your source on Brady? It was Tom Brady. Uh, that is a fascinating relationship though. Cause you didn't cover him locally. You have, you've built an incredible relationship with brady how did that happen well i mean it's this is one of those things where like it's kind of awkward because like a brady like you know brady's probably got to deal with like people thinking that we're like best friends he's like who the f is this guy yeah right brady's like who who is this um no i mean i just i like i don't know how to explain it. You know how it goes. It's just relationships. And I don't want to like say too much, but I'm just, I've been fortunate to, uh, to get to know,

I'll tell you this. I've been fortunate. The one thing that's funny is like people like, Oh, that's your source. That's your source. I mean, I'll be honest with you on this one. I've got probably 15 people that I talked to about Brady that all shoot it straight. So it's not like, I mean, I don't know. That's one of those things where it's not like one person. So, yeah. Look, you deserve a lot of credit for that because you were on it. I remember watching it on the show that day. And then, you know, you go back and retrace all the steps and you go, oh, yeah, like this.

Yeah. I mean, it should have been more obvious to us, but it just. Yeah. That was one of those stories, though, like I'm talking about where, like, I think I've even told you this, where all these people were crushing me and I just had to be like, it's going to work out, it's going to be right.

And then later on, go into my Instagram comments and just double tap each one that calls me a motherfucker. Just to let them know that I remember. Like that little pettiness from Jeff after that. All right, so there's still a couple other things I want. What's going on with Tua? So, I mean, look, Brian Flores has endorsed him. There's no question about that.

He's made that clear. I don't sense that the marriage between Brian Flores and Tua is as healthy as Dolphins fans might want it or feel that it is. I don't know. I can't put a... It's kind of like, it reminds me a little bit back in 2011 with Tim Tebow, where everybody in the world was like, how could you not love this guy?

Like, he's just a winner. And all the fans were rallying around him. That's our guy. That's our guy. And John Elway, meanwhile, in the background was like, can we get Peyton Manning immediately? Like, it's kind of a very similar situation. Like, he couldn't have gotten,

after he beat Pittsburgh in the playoffs, he could not have gotten rid of Tebow more unceremoniously and without any type of human emotion whatsoever. And I actually would make the comparison to what Brian Flores is going through with Tua right now. I think the fan base, I'm not saying Flores doesn't like Tua, but I don't necessarily know that Tua is like Flores' guy to the point

where this is like a ride or die situation. Yeah. I mean, it's very, it's very common because if you're a Dolphins fan, you don't want to believe that Tua is not going to be the guy because you used this pick on him. And he's also very likable,

you know, he's a guy that like you really, and I think that there's some of that within this fan base where they're saying look we get it deshaun watson is a generational quarterback but you're going to give up this guy who is just like like coming to this community and like one thing i'm surprised by with tua is that generally speaking fan bases are harder on the quarterback than anybody else they're the first one to turn on a quarterback. With Tua, the locals and the fan base have actually sort of been more supportive of Tua. Like, no, that's our guy than you might expect.

And I've seen them turn on guys far faster than Ryan Tannehill went through, Chad Henney. Like all these guys, it's happened before within the fan base first, and then the national media. With Tua, it's happened before within the fan base first and then the national media with Tua, it's the complete opposite. Yeah, nationally, I think people have given up on him. I think what you would do is you would say he was a higher pick, higher profile than the other guys

that were coming in, even though Tannehill was still a top 10 pick. And then with last year being weird and it was pretty clear the play calling didn't necessarily trust him. Every time I'd watch the red zone games when Tua was in, i'm talking like when the dolphins were in the red zone i'd be like wow they don't they don't trust us kind of do anything right now and you didn't love the weapons and all these like there is a i don't want to give up argument for tua like i

understand what you'd be doing as it's been but i'm i'm disappointed overall because i just don't think he's consistent enough and that was like the best thing is accuracy is consistency, manipulating the lanes. I mean, maybe it was just cause he was throwing NFL guys all over the place. Well, you know, the funny thing too,

is though that oddly the best thing that could have happened to, this is a very strange thing to say, but was getting hurt because everybody was putting this team on his shoulders by saying like, this team is built to win right now. This is a good Dolphins football team. Tua, you need to prove that you deserve to be the quarterback of this team. He got hurt.

And we saw what this team was even without Tua. And it was very bad. It is. I mean, it is very bad. They just lost to the Jaguars. So all of a sudden, when Tua does come back, oh, well, he was in that game too. But when Tua is back in not just the games he missed,

you're looking at it saying, well, maybe it's not just him though. Maybe it is the team around him that is not ready to have a quarterback just plug and play and get them to the playoffs. The other thing too that was happening, at least last year, they had a lot of weird turnover stretches there where they're getting points.

They basically were maximizing whatever you could get in some of the other areas of the game, right? Yeah, but actually, I mean, I talked to people about the Dolphins in this offseason, and they would point toward, so not to go all analytic nerd, but they would point toward the point differentials in these games. And if you look at the total point differential that the dolphins were in the top 10,

meaning their margin of defeat was, was not that wide. They weren't getting blown out other than like one game. And I think it was the bills game. So they went back and did these studies that showed that teams that are on the cusp of becoming like true perennial playoff contenders had the year before where that point differential had squeezed together, and that was the brink of their success.

The Dolphins expected that to happen here. They thought they were ready, and I don't know what to tell you, but obviously they were wrong. Yeah, well, I'm not even disputing the analytic part of it, or at least maybe the projection. I'm saying if you watch them, I think it was like a four or five week stretch where it felt like, all right, they've got to turn over and they've got a short

field here again. They've got to pick six. They had a bunch of stuff that everyone that is in football will tell you if that's how you're living. It's like Iowa Hawkeyes football right now. Yeah, that's a good line. If it's constantly getting turnovers and picking people off in the red zone all the time,

you can't really sustain that over the course of the season. What's fascinating, though, Ryan, is the Flores element of this, too. He came into this season wildly popular, and the belief was that he was the answer. And just kind of the way Adam Gase was after his first season and Tony Sperano when he came in here, the late, great Tony Sperano when he came in

and had success early on. And oddly, I'm sensing that the fan base here is turning on Flores faster than they're turning on Tua, which I don't think anybody could have bet on when the season started not but seven weeks ago. Okay, I have one more Miami thing, and then I'll let it go. What would the reception be for Deshaun Watson

if he ended up in a Dolphins uniform? Dude, I think that, I mean, I think there's a lot of ire being directed toward the potential of the trade, but I'm sorry, man. When you bring a top five quarterback in, everybody forgets immediately. Maybe I'm just too jaded by everything that I've seen,

but it's like the guy can be, and I'm not saying this is about Deshaun, but you can have a total asshole that a team hates. The second he signs with your team, now he's my asshole. And I mean, I think that that happens so often. So, I mean, you're going to bring a generational quarterback in

as soon as his legal issues are, as soon as he settles those and is held accountable for whatever he did or whatever he didn't do. I think the fan base embraces him with open arms. I would agree. I think that's exactly what will happen. The trade deadline maybe is a little sexier now, Jeff, than it used to. People forgot it even passed when we were growing up. You're like, what happened?

It's November 2nd. I don't know. Is there anything worth paying attention to? I mean, Deshaun is the big one. Honestly, because of the salary cap situations facing teams due to the COVID situation with the cap, teams are strapped now and they're strapped next year. So when you look at the teams that do have money,

I think there's maybe like seven teams that have any type of cash. And four of those are probably teams that are saying, we're screwed anyway. So I actually think it's going to be quieter than usual. All attention on that Watson situation.

Thanks, Jeff. Enjoy Florida. And we'll talk to you again soon. Go ahead and bleep out those motherfuckers for me. Haglerhansarns took place April 15, 1985 at Caesars Palace. It was a middleweight championship.

Hagler had been dominant in the division. Hearns moved up in weight class. And at that point, Hagler was still waiting for notoriety. Notoriety that he felt like he never got after Leonard. And Hearns certainly had his own Leonard demons losing in a battle with him.

So this fight leading up, I don't know that the expectations were for now how it's remembered historically. And certainly historically, some would argue it's the greatest fight they've ever seen because of the just nonstop action for not even three rounds. It doesn't make it through the third round. I didn't see this fight live. We didn't have HBO to watch the replay. So this fight for me at that age when I was nine years old existed as this fight live. We didn't have HBO to watch the replay. So this fight for me at that age, when I was nine years old, existed as this mythical thing. And I remember my father got to see it somewhere and he would tell me, oh, you've got to see this.

You've got to see it. But back then there was no way to see it until I think VHS tapes came out long after the fight. So the first time I actually saw the fight was, I don't know how much longer, but I never forget the feeling, like feeling like two guys could actually do that, keep that pace up, have that hatred for each other in combat and give us what I think is still one of the most entertaining sporting events I've ever witnessed, but again, didn't even witness live. So I love this book. I love the stories behind it. Let's do it. Hagler-Hearns, the best fight I've ever seen, April 15th,

1985, The War. And that is the title of the book. The author, Don Stradley, joins us now. So let's go back in time. Fantastic job on this book. Like I said, it's my favorite fight ever. It's the best three rounds maybe ever, maybe the best opening round we've ever seen in championship boxing. Let's start with the way you start the book, which I really enjoyed. We're going to go Hagler-Hearns. Who was Hagler at this time? Because I know this fight was going to be made perhaps in 1981, but who would Hagler ban late 70s, early 80s leading up to this battle? Fighting out of Brockton, Massachusetts. Weighing 159 and one quarter pounds, with a professional record of 60 wins, two defeats, 2 draws, and 50 KOs.

Ladies and gentlemen, the undisputed middleweight champion of the world, Marvin Petler. Well, I would say he was a cult figure at the time. He was only known, really, amongst the real hardcore boxing fans who really appreciated his style. He was not a major sports figure between 1980 to 83, 84. He was not a major figure in sports. He was one of many boxers who was trying to grab some spotlight in the wake of Ali, in the wake of Sugar Ray Leonard. Those guys had left boxing. Ali permanentlyervently, Leonard, was in and out of boxing, fighting only occasionally. So boxing didn't have a huge star at the time. It didn't have a face, you see, that figurehead that every decade there seems to be one major guy that boxing fans look up to.

Hagler was not the guy. He was trying to be noticed. And ironically, he was making a lot of money. He was a respected champion within the fight game, but he was not a superstar. a respected champion within the fight game, but he was not a superstar. That wouldn't come until the Hearns fight, really. Now, at the time of the actual fight, Hagler's 30, Hearns is 26. So if we go back to when Hearns is first on Hagler's radar and Hagler is dismissive, his trainers are dismissive,

who was Hearns in the early 80s? The challenger, the WBC super welterweight champion, fighting out of Detroit, Michigan, weighing 159 and three-quarter pounds. His professional record consists of 40 wins, one defeat with 34 KOs. Ladies and gentlemen, here is Thomas, the Hitman, Hearns. Hearns was actually a bigger star than Hagler.

His name had a little more clout at the box office, but he was considered inconsistent, almost flighty, unreliable. Sometimes he could be really dynamic, obviously. We remember a lot of those old clips of him knocking out opponents, Papino Cuevas and Roberto Duran. We remember those clips of him being so devastating, but it wasn't like that all the time. He had a lot of problems with his right hand. He was also a bit eccentric. He had become one of those characters who likes to collect rare animals, you know, and a lot of cars. So people looked at him as a bit of a weird character who could be great. That was always the impression was that Hearns could be great. But he wasn't there yet. And he had lost against Ray Leonard in 81. So there was a feeling about Hearns that, you know, he wasn't quite there yet, even though his name was higher than Hagler's at the time. He was considered unreliable, inconsistent. So Aram wants to put together this first version of the fight. Take us through the first stage of when this fight almost happened. Because again,

based on the timeline of the book, we're talking about almost four years prior to when the real fight did take place. Oh, yeah. Well, it was mostly Hearns who was pushing for it. And that first time, he had just lost to Leonard, and he was kind of desperate to regain his status. And he was a welterweight, but he thought, if I fight Hagler and beat Hagler, that will make up for losing to Ray Leonard. So he was really the one who started talking about it before anyone else. At the time, Hagler would fight anybody. He just wanted to fight and make money. He didn't care if it was Hearns or

Leonard or whoever. He just wanted to fight and get noticed, get some recognition. Hearns was really counting on it. But again, he injured his hand in training, had some kind of a problem with his pinky and his wrist, and there were all sorts of problems. There were also problems with the location. Hearns wanted to do it near Detroit. It almost ended up in Canada.

Las Vegas didn't want it. They thought neither one of these guys is a big enough draw, which, you know, it probably sounds strange now that we put these guys on pedestals as these great heroic figures from the past. But at the time, Las Vegas said, now nobody knows who Hagler is. You know, we can't put him in a main event, you know. So it almost ended up in Canada in 1982. But Hearns, a lot of mysterious things were going on behind the scenes. I tried to learn as much about it as I

could. But ultimately, the fight fell apart. They blamed, the official word was they couldn't decide on a location. I think there were a lot of other factors going on. Possibly, Hearns realized it was a bad idea because he was still a welterweight and a thin welterweight. Uh, so maybe he had decided it was a bad idea. Later, Emmanuel Stewart, Hearns' trainer said he canceled it because he didn't think, uh, the timing was right, you know? Uh, but ultimately who knows? I don't think anybody really has the answer um i'm sure uh top rank has their answer the hearns people had their answer uh the haggler people and not many of them are around i'm sure they have their answer you know so it was a mystery yeah you're right and it's also important to point out

that hearns would be moving up which is something he moved all over the place weight class at one point i think he was the first guy to have four different belts and four different weight divisions back when we had less divisions so it was actually you know more of accomplishments which you do great job of pointing out later on but this is still a big ask for hearns at this age his frame hey he's going to move up to middleweight. Hagler was fine with it. So the fight actually finally gets made. All right. So it's going to happen in Vegas.

It's going to happen outside in Caesars. It's also going to be in a Monday, by the way, which is something that I'd forgotten. There's this promotional tour that Bob Arum puts together. Give us the backstory to this and how it was received. Well, it was kind of a phenomenon. You know, nowadays, you know, young fans, you can see the press conference on your phone, you know, and they only have to do one press conference now and maybe another one near the fight, you know. But back then, Bob Arum on this idea to to take both fighters around the country

on on private jets each guy had his own jet which became a story in itself right they fought over the jets yeah yeah uh that they were arguing over the jets who you know what hotels they would stay at. But Aram sent the fighters around the country, city by city. I think it was 21 or 24 cities in a couple of weeks where they would meet the press in every city. And it became almost like a vaudeville tour or a theatrical tour where they'd stop in each city and insult each other. And I remember it was kind of funny. You'd pick up the newspaper wondering, well, I wonder where they are today. You know, are they in Texas? Are they in Washington? Where are they today? What are they saying? You know, and you would get reports of what was going on in each city, you know, It was really unprecedented.

And at the time, the press kind of thought it was silly. They were thinking, why is there so much hype going on about these two guys who, frankly, are not superstars? This was not Muhammad Ali. It was not Ray Leonard. It was two guys who were really a little bit lower down the ladder as far as stardom. And so the press was kind of scratching their collective heads saying, you know, why is there so much press about this? So you had these conflicting reports looking back on it. Some people loved this tour. They thought, oh, it was great. They

were going to every city, raising interest in the fight. But then you had other critics, Lee Montville, one of my favorite writers who wrote for the Boston Globe at the time, he just couldn't stand it. You know, he was saying, why are these two guys talking so damn much? You know, have we ever heard two guys talk so much about one fight? You know, every day it was going on. And in a way, it worked out. It was a gamble that Bob Arum put out there, that if he just kept reminding people about this fight,

they might buy a ticket or they might go see it at their local theater on closed circuit. It was a gamble and it paid off. And I say in the book, I think it was Aram's shining hour that he put this together and made it work. He probably disagrees. He probably thinks other fights that he did, they made more money or received even more publicity. But from my point of view, my perspective, when you're working with Hagler, who was not an instant ticket seller, and to turn it into the kind of event that it became, that's magnificent. That's a great promotional strategy. We're in Vegas.

It's the lead up to the fight. You've got the Petronellis out of Brockton in an old school gym with Hagler. And then you've got the Hearns entourage from Detroit. Compare those two approaches to lead up to the actual fight. Well, by now, you have to remember that both guys, they were rich athletes at this point. So the temptation to be pampered was there. But Hagler ended up going to Johnny Taco's gym in Las Vegas, which was this

broken down old place that had been around for years. And, uh, it was the kind of place where fighters went to kind of rejuvenate themselves because it was so scrappy, uh, so bottom line that, you know, you had no distractions. It was just one broken down old ring. And I think a telephone, that was it. One of those old telephones on the wall, you know. And no, no air conditioning, it was always 100 degrees in there, you know, It was really like the Stone Age. And Hagler and the Petronelli camp, they loved this place. And it was just Hagler and a couple of sparring partners doing the dirty work. And he was training for a very intense fight where he just wanted to steamroll over Hearns. That was his whole strategy. It wasn't that he went crazy at the bell and charged out. He was working on that kind of fight to just keep coming forward and keep Hearns moving back,

because the theory was that Hearns couldn't do anything if he was backing up. He needed to have his feet planted. So that's what they were working on. And Johnny Tacos, this decrepit little Jim. Hearns, meanwhile, Hearns kind of liked that Las Vegas atmosphere. So he was training in these glittery surroundings that I believe the hotel set up for him in one of the ballrooms in the hotel. So there was a chandelier, you know, and there were statues and, you know, exotic lighting and an invited audience could come in and watch Tommy train, you know. And it was really like a media circus where Tommy was. like a media circus where Tommy was. But I think it distracted Hearns a little bit. And there is an argument, and I mentioned it briefly in the book, that

Hearns liked that environment because it kept him light. It was better for him because it kept him kind of, you know, distracted and loose. Because, you know, you don't want to be locked in a room thinking about, you know, I'm going to fight Marvin Hagler in three days or whatever. You want to be loose. You want to be able to walk around among the people. And that's what Tommy likes to do. There's an argument that he should have isolated himself a bit more and been a little more focused. But the argument is, who's to say locking himself away would have been any better? Would the fight be any different if he had been like a monk, like Hagler, and just being deadline-focused? and just being deadline focused. Tommy was Tommy. That's the way he always worked.

He likes to be loose. He likes to joke around. And nine times out of 10, it worked perfectly for him. He had an excellent career with that kind of lighthearted approach. The fight. The first three minutes are unlike anything you're ever going to see. Corbin going for the body. the first three minutes are unlike anything you're ever going to see.

The pace of that first round, it looks like Hagler's cut. It looks like he's in trouble. On the other side of things for Hearns, who was always criticized for his jaw, he takes two, I was watching again this morning, he takes two flush lefts where he doesn't even move off of his feet. It was remarkable that he's able to hold up. As you watch it again, as you research that round for this book, what are some of the best stories, the observations of all the people involved in really what was boxing history? Well, what I like hearing is that the reaction

to everybody along press row after the first round ended. I was talking to Steve Marantz, who covered the fight for the Boston Globe. And he said, you know, most of the time, the round ends and, you know, you talk to the other reporters, you kid around, you say, who do you want? Who do you think won that round? You know, he said, after the first round of Hagler-Hearns, everybody was just spellbound. You know, they couldn't believe what they'd seen. They weren't talking to each other. You know, once in a while, you'd look at somebody and your eyes would meet and it would just be disbelief, like, what the hell just happened? You know uh so i

i love hearing just the effect it had on people you know one guy was saying i wish the round would end because i thought i was gonna have a heart attack you know it was so intense um and another thing that's interesting is uh almost everyone everyone i spoke to said to compare it to the film or the video that you saw later, it didn't seem like the same fight. You know, it was kind of like you couldn't keep your eyes on, you know, as the action was going on. If you were in, you know, the arena, if you were in the press row trying to keep your eye on it, you couldn't do it. You couldn't follow the action. It was almost too frenetic, you know. And I've covered a lot of fights. And I know that there is something exaggerated that happens when you're in the front row and you're watching these guys box and get hit, sometimes the action slows down

almost. Sometimes it speeds up. It's very odd. I'm sure there's a scientific reason for it. I'm sure there's some professor somewhere who can give you the word for the way things look in real life as opposed to the way they look on videotape later. But I've seen fights where I swear that this guy is out on his feet and his eyes are rolling in the back of his head and he's about to go down. But then when I see the video replay a week later on Showtime or something, it doesn't look so bad. It just happens to go by real quick. And I'm thinking, boy, when I saw it live, it was a lot more intense than what I'm seeing here. You know, so if you can imagine what it was like to be in Las Vegas on the night of Hagler-Hearns,

to think that it may have actually been more intense than what we see on the video. That's amazing. Yeah, it seems hard to believe. Yeah, yeah, but quite a few people said that. It was just not, you know, twice as intense live because it was unexpected. I still couldn't believe the energy that both fighters had after fighting at that pace for the three minutes and then still some of the punches that were thrown at the very end. You're like, these guys are not exhausted yet so we go to the second and hearns obviously he's knocked out in the third with a

series of right hands from haggler but the story that you point out and you can see something happens to hearns legs just holding he is working the body of tommy hearns what hearns looks awkward his legs look like they're not there. A little rubbery here in round two. He has rubber legs, and it's not from being out on his feet, which he is later. But his feet, he almost falls down in the second. There's a couple times where he's stumbling, and it leads to this story, apparently, that came out of

the herdens camp later that they were massaging him what happened to his legs in this fight well i i think uh the massage was just a couple of things or one of a couple of things that happened um i think he had over trained uh he started his training in Miami and he was running. He was running on a beach, which is bad. He was, apparently, I heard this from a couple of people in the camp, he was sneaking out at night to even do extra road work. You know, so they were giving him five miles a day or whatever, and he was sneaking out to do an additional two or three. And I think he wore his legs out. So when he got to the dressing room, I think he said, my legs are shot, my legs are tired. friends or members of the entourage or pals. I don't think they were official trainers, but a couple of guys just started kind of slapping at his legs and massaging his legs,

trying to get some life back into them. And Emanuel Stewart, his trainer, walked in and saw that. And apparently it freaked him out. Cause you know, you're not supposed to be getting massaged that close to fight time. You know it, it, it kind of tires you out even more. It relaxes you too much. You know, it takes some of the snap out of your limbs. So he chased the entourage out of the room, but Emmanuel kind of let things get out of control that night. Emanuel kind of let things get out of control that night. And I knew Emanuel a little bit back because I used to write for The Ring magazine. And I got to know both trainers. I knew Goody Petronelli and I knew Emanuel. And, you know, he would say the way that dressing room was, it was too much of a festive atmosphere.

It's like they were already celebrating a victory, you know? Um, so I, I don't think the, the leg massage was the total, uh, reason. I, I think he had over-trained. Uh, I think the massage made it a little worse. And then I think he started to get nervous. I think he was anxious because now his legs are tired. All right. So that brought up some anxiety, which will also make you tired, you know. So he had a lot of things working against him. And he decided right before the fight, he says, I can't box this guy because my legs are not right. So I'm just going to try to knock him out, which went against what he'd been working on. He had probably wanted to box for six or seven rounds and get some rounds in the bank.

He had talked about scoring a knockout, but I think deep down he knew he was going to outbox Hagler because Hearns was a good boxer. But yeah, 10 minutes before they went in the ring, I think I heard that he decided, I'm going to go for the knockout. That's all I have. It's my only shot. Hearns is smiling, but he's taking shots. Another right hand.

Hearns, Hearns is back. Takes another right. Hearns in deep trouble again. Hearns is down. Hearns turns his back, takes another right. Hearns in deep trouble again. Hearns is down. Hearns is down in the third round and on his back and he's not going to beat the count. I don't believe Tommy Hearns tries to get up and he's got to stop this fight. Does he get up? He just doesn't know. He can't continue. It's Adler full of blood. How much did this loss haunt Hearns? Oh, very much. Very much.

And it's the one that got away. The interesting thing is that he really wanted the rematch, and it almost happened. There were a couple of times where the rematch almost happened, and Hagler bowed out at the last minute because Leonard was coming out of retirement, and it just seemed like I could make a lot more money fighting Leonard than I could with Hearns, and they all thought Leonard was going to be an easy night. You know, they didn't want to go through Tommy Hearns again. They just didn't want to do that. Because even though Hagler won decisively against Hearns,

that was not an easy night. And he was really never the same. But it did haunt Hearns, especially because he did well in his other rematches. He had his rematch with Leonard. He did very well. He got a draw that a lot of people think he should have been given the victory. He did very well in his rematch with Leonard.

Then he lost to Iran Barkley. But in his rematch with Barkley, he did pretty well. He lost a split decision, but he put Barkley in the hospital. Um, he, he showed that he can go toe to toe with those guys. And I think he just misses that opportunity that he didn't get a chance to show that with, uh, Hagler. with Hagler. And I do spend some time in the book sort of speculating about what a rematch may have been like. Some people think Tommy would have done fine in a rematch. Others think it would have just been

a variation of the first fight. I don't know if the Hagler story would be any different if he got the win against Leonard. Some have argued he still got the win, but Leonard played it perfectly. I think that fight's always been, who did you want to win? And then you'll come to that conclusion because it was a very close fight. Even though I personally felt like Ray was just a magician at stealing rounds.

He just knew how to steal those rounds and it was a better story. at stealing rounds. He just knew how to steal those rounds and it was a better story. And Hagler, as you point out, this obsession with being an actor, Punky Brewster, these Italian movies, and then somebody that was always pretty straight-laced and rumors of some drug use and all sorts of other things. I don't know if Hagler's life would have gone in that direction no matter what if he had beaten Leonard you know I don't I'm not trying to tie that together and turn into like oh the Leonard thing went this way so then Hagler's life took this turn that turn may have always been there for Hagler because he admits in the book um through previous interviews it's like hey everybody's on

my case I just want to now finally have a good time and enjoy being who I am um I don't I don't have an answer to that I don't know if you have a better one in sifting through all the information about Hagler once he started to shut it down after a fight. Well, I think for me, the cornerstone of the Hagler story is that he was a guy who wanted fame. He wanted that kind of fame that comes to great fighters. But when he finally got it, it made him uncomfortable. And he realized, wow, I've been fighting for this for so long,

and now I've got it, and I don't really like it. You know, that's a big thing. Fame doesn't suit everybody. It looks good from the outside. But when you get a sample of it, it doesn't suit everybody. And it didn't suit Hagler. I think he liked to party because the stress of his career was starting to weigh down on him. And his marriage was starting to crumble. And he was really caught between a lot of... He was

being pulled in a lot of directions. Do I save my marriage? Do I try to ride out this fame thing that now is coming to me. He was pulled a lot of different directions. No one had prepared him for that. The Petronellis didn't know how to deal with fame. They'd never had a famous fighter. They didn't know how to coach him in that you know they could coach him to uh to fight but uh they were you know just a couple of guys from brockton they they didn't know anything about fame really um and and they were his father figures you know in a lot of ways so even if he had questions about fame you know what could they tell him you know um whereas other trainers you know they have could they tell him, you know? Um, whereas other trainers, you know, they have a couple of famous fighters. They can develop a sense of how to deal with it. Um, Hagler was really a very basic guy, very working class, basic guy. Um, I mean, at one point he was trying to get

a job with the city's water company, reading water meters. That was the kind of guy he was. He was just a working guy. To me, that's the Hagler story. He wanted fame, and then when he got it, he didn't like it so much. There's so much more in this book. The Cronk Jim element to it emmanuel steward hearns you end up liking hearns more unless you're you know like look the hardcore hearns

fans have always been out there and uh but i liked him more after this i wasn't necessarily anti-hearns but i remember being a younger kid and thinking oh this guy just gets knocked out all the time and then he had the jaw alignment thing i mean there's just there's a lot of really great stuff in this book about a fight that some of our listeners are maybe learning about for the first time, or the book is a gift to the father who's, who's seen this thing. That's how I was introduced to it. My dad and I watching it all the time, uh, together. I watch it probably once or twice a year. I love it that much. So I, I, uh, I watched a lot, uh, uh, while I was working on the book and, uh, I'm glad you mentioned that about Hearns,

uh, because I, I feel like that was one of my missions in the book was to, you know, get people to remember Tommy Hearns, uh, you know, as not just the guy who lost this fight, but in a way he made the fight, you know, he made the fight as good as it was. Um, and he was a very interesting character. And I think people have forgotten exactly how important his career was. He was a staple of that period. And it's an interesting period too. That was another mission I had in writing the book was I wanted people to realize there was a lot going on in boxing at that time. Yeah. The sport was changing. Uh, the rounds were cut down to 12. The gloves were slightly

different. Um, the coverage was different. Um, pay-per-view was starting to become important and, and, uh, the closed circuit was starting to become something of the past. It was a lot of things were developing, changing. It was a really interesting time in the sport. I appreciate your work on this, Don. It's terrific. Again, the book, The War, Don Stradley. Thank you.

war, Don Stradley. Thank you. Very lucky to have the legendary promoter Bob Arum with us on the podcast again. And what I wanted to focus on with this visit is I think the greatest fight I've ever seen. I know there's a few others in the conversation, and that's Hagler-Hearns. He promoted

a ton of fights for both fighters. This almost happened, I know, in 1981, 1982. What were some of the problems selling this fight early on? Well, there were no problems, really. Marvin was considered to be the most outstanding middleweight in the world. the most outstanding middleweight in the world. But Tommy had been involved with Sugar Ray Leonard in, I think, 1981, that tremendous fight.

And Tommy was used to the big stage. Marvin didn't get to the big stage until 1983 when we made the match with Roberta Duran after Duran had beaten Davey Moore. So by 1985, that fight, Hagler and Hearns, uh, was the fight to make. Uh, and, uh, uh, it was, uh, I remember a relatively even betting fight, uh, because Marvin was a naturally little heavier guy. Uh, but, uh, Tommy had that tremendous punch that had knocked out so many prior opponents. What's your favorite part of working with somebody like Marvin Hagler?

The fact that he always had your back. Marvin was the kind of guy that was the most loyal person that I ever experienced in boxing. He was tremendously loyal to me and particularly to the two Petronelli brothers, Goody, the trainer, and Pat, who was the manager.

They were an inseparable group. Uh, and there was no backbiting, uh, as you do have in most camps. Uh, so it was a real pleasure to be involved over the years with Marvin and his management trainer. I mean, we all became such really good friends that we could almost communicate without having to go into long speeches. uh, go into long speeches. Now for this fight, you put together this press tour all over the country, two jets for both camps.

Uh, this was, this was like old school. You know, I've read about texts and all the guys, this, this felt like a real grassroots old school, get the word out to build up this fight. What went into that decision,

Bob? Well, first you have to realize that we're talking about 1985, right? Yeah. Which is not 2020. Uh, when the money and big fights are made on the pay-per-view, which pretty much is a last minute buy. So why would you do a big, big tour spending all this money if you're relying on pay-per-view revenue? The answer is you wouldn't. But we were still in the closed circuit era. Now, in that era, we divided up the country into regions, and we had exhibitors who put up a guarantee against the percentage for the revenue in their area. And so it was very important, months out, to do a tour, which wouldn't interfere with the fighters' training,

which wouldn't interfere with the fighters training and would build up interest in the fight so that the exhibitors could come up with big guarantees. That was the reason you don't have it now because it's wasted now that you had it then. And nobody to my knowledge had done something so extensive as the tour that we did. We started in New York. We went across the country to California, stopping on the way. And then back, we went to Vegas for the weekend and then back east.

I think we did 24, 25 cities in less than 14 days. So that obviously meant some days we did two or even three press conferences. One funny incident that I can recall, it wasn't funny at the time, incident that I can recall, it wasn't funny at the time, is when we started out in New York, we had Caesar's Palace gave us its state-of-the-art plane. It was a G1, and it had Pac-Man games that you could play on it. It was for their high-rolling customers. that you could play on it. It was for their high-rolling customers. I went out and got another jet for the other fighter,

which unfortunately was always 10 or 15 minutes behind the G1. So the deal was that Marvin and his group were to have the G1 going west. And then when they went east, they would exchange planes. And that satisfied everybody. And I spent going west a day on Marvin's plane and a day on Tommy's plane. And now we were in Las Vegas, ready to come back east when the planes are going to be switched. So Pat Petronelli calls me. He says, Bob, big, big crisis.

You got to meet us for breakfast. So I went down, it was Caesars, and met with the Petronelli brothers. And they said, Marvin's going home. I said, what do you mean he's going home? We have all these stops to do going east. He says, he's going home. I said, why is he going home? Because you're putting him on the other plane. I said, but that's what you agreed to. You know, Marvin, he gave you his word. That's what you're, I don't, we don't care. We're sorry.

We apologize. It's not our decision. It's Marvin's decision. If he can't stay on the plane, the G1, he's going home. So I don't know what the hell to do. I called Emanuel, who was a very close friend of mine, who was the manager trainer of Tommy. And I got both of them down. And Tommy was furious, absolutely furious. How could he do this thing? And so forth. He gave his word.

his word. And finally, I said, look, the only thing I can do is to go out, whatever it costs, and hire another G1 for you. So the planes are equally as fast. And they said, okay, we'll accept that on one condition. as it was that you, for the rest of the tour going east, you were on our plane and not on Agla's plane. They wanted me on the plane because they were teaching me all these Detroit inner city card games, and they loved to play cards, a tank and everything. I mean, we had a good time. So that's what we did. Now, years later, when I was talking to Marvin,

I said, Marvin, how could you have done that to me? You know, you'd given me your word and so forth. He says, Bob, you're an idiot. I said, why am I an idiot? He said, didn't you know that I was banging the stewardess on the plane and I want to keep doing it? That makes a little bit more sense now. That was not uncovered in the book. Location for this one. It was very easy for me to forget that, yeah, it was not uncovered in the book. Location for this one. It was very easy for me to forget that, yeah, it was a Monday,

and that maybe Vegas is enamored with this fight. How hard was it to find a location, and how did it end up outside of Caesars on a Monday? Look at the history. Caesars, you know, Las Vegas is blessed with good weather most of the year. And Caesars had this tennis pavilion. And they built it into a stadium that could seat 15,000 people. And it was in, he didn't have to go through the casino to get there, which was very important because when Caesars would book a fight, they would first consult with all the other hotels in Las Vegas who were happy to send their customers to Caes's Palace for the fight because they had a parking lot in the back

where they could drop their customers off so they didn't have to go through the Caesar's Casino, so they didn't lose business. So it was like a big, big asset to do it outdoors. asset to do it outdoors. And obviously, tremendous demand for tickets. And I remember the ambience where the night is coming down, and we finally get rid of the sun and you see the moon and the stars and then they put a spotlight on the caesars palace building as they raised the american flag it was very very very inspiring it was a great scene i love the trumpet intro um that that was and I think you've been around this your whole professional life for the most part, Bob. And these are all professionals. And it's interesting, at least for me. I'm certainly removed from it.

But as a fan, and I've covered fights, and you're always wondering how much the guys really dislike each other. And it doesn't really happen that often. I think between the plane fiasco, the injury problem, 81- arguments in in emmanuel's camp and the petronella it felt like these guys actually really did hate each other and that's why we got that first round that we did maybe it was the plane that was part of it but what really happened is remember But what really happened is, remember, 24 spots. Now, Marvin felt he had to build up a dislike for his opponent in order to be effective in the ring. And when you have two fighters who aren't really public speakers, and they get up and they say similar things,

he'd stop because what is there to say? I'm going to knock you out. Somehow, Tommy got under Marvin's skin. And I remember in St. Louis, we were doing a press conference at Stan Musial's restaurant that Marvin snapped, and he jumps over the table, and he's going for Tommy, and I'm yelling, anybody throws a punch, the fight's off, and nobody gets paid. So that stopped him. But the hate that built up, the animosity for having these guys spend two weeks together speaking to each other, you know, that was something I had never seen before.

So when that bell rang for that fight, these two guys didn't care. Nobody wanted a box. They wanted to come out and knock the other guy's head off. Okay. Take us into that moment. Where were you sitting? What was that first round like? Who were you sitting next to? Tell us that part of it. Well, I was sitting next to my then wife, who I since changed wives. She's not my wife anymore. I got a new wife. But my then wife, and of all people, Joan Rivers, because she was a big entertainer.

And Henry Gluck was sitting next to us. He was the chairman of season. He was in the first row ringside. And I'll never forget after the first round, Joan Rivers turned to me and said, are these fights all like that? I said, no, Joan, you're seeing something special. Half a minute to go in round one.

How far can this one go? Tremendous first round. Hagler. Hitting into the rope. Working on it, but Hearns uppercutting again. Hagler bloody. A tremendous first round as Hearns gets Hearns. Hearns got stunned.

Hagler was stunned early in the round. Great first round. Incredible. After the fight was over, what did you do? After the fight was over, I, you know, I got in the ring. I congratulated Marvin. I commiserated with Emmanuel and Tommy, who by that time had become really good friends of mine, having fleeced me with some of these card games.

But no, we had a great time. And so we had established a great friendship. And as elated I was for Marvin's victory, so I was disappointed for Tommy having got knocked out the way he had. And listen, in the first round, Tommy hits Marvin with the best right hand that he ever threw. And he knocked everybody out with that punch. Hit Marvin right

on the face. And Marvin took a step back, sort of, and then didn't affect him and came forward. Last night, I was at a dinner party with Al Michaels, who, by the way, called that fight for the closer. that fight for the closer. And Al said he had never seen anything like it. He still remembers it. When Tommy hit Marvin, Marvin's whole face, you know, contracted and then, you know, came back to normal side. And once Marvin took the best punch that Tommy could ever throw,

I felt, and so did Al, that the fight was in effect over. How did you do on this fight financially? Very well. Extraordinarily well. Extraordinarily well. Very well. Those fighters then fought on guarantees against percentages. They all made money on the percentages. We made a lot of money.

It was a very, very successful event. Pretty much all of those fights that I did in that period with Marvin and Tommy and Ray and Roberto were moneymakers. Now, but this was also a changing landscape, as you mentioned, kind of coming out of the closed circuit and then the HBO element, because HBO had a deal with Hagler. How much did this fight perhaps change? HBO had a deal with Hagler. It was closed circuit,

and we did our own production for the closed circuit but in addition hbo had bought the delayed rights right and they did their own production for their telecast that's how it worked there was nothing really new about it except for the tour, except the tour got us big guarantees for exhibitors. Exhibitors did well because the fight was well promoted. And for example, we had a guy, Irving Rudd, who was our PR guy, who was a genius. And he says to me one day, Bob, I want to go to Washington. I said, for what? I'm going to meet with the IRS, the Internal Revenue Service. I'll get them to sponsor the fight. I said, are you crazy? He says, no. The fight's on April 15th. There's something there. So he flies to Washington,

meets with the IRS. They agreed to do a commercial with Marvin and Tommy, where each of them say, remember, April 15th is when we're fighting. It's going to be a great fight. But before you watch the fight, make sure you file your tax returns. And they played it all over the country. It didn't cost me a nickel. That was a genius move by my PR guy, the late Irving Rudd. Yeah, I love that part of the story. I also love, if we're talking about D.C. here,

you had politicians in Hagler's camp, like early on with Hagler, right? I don't know if they were giving you a hard time, Bob, like early on with Hagler, right? Giving you, giving you a, I don't know if they were giving you a hard time, Bob, or what they were being persuasive, but it felt like the government of Massachusetts was after you to get Hagler bigger fights. So what happened was I, prior to this, prior to meeting Marvin and in the late seventies, myself and a couple of promoters that I was allied with, like Rodolfo Sabatini

from Italy and Tito Lictori from Argentina, we sort of controlled the middleweight division. And all we knew about Marvin Hagler was he wasn't going to sell tickets because he didn't have that type of charisma. And he was a very dangerous fighter because he was a very good fighter. But, you know, he didn't have a big amateur background like Ray and Tommy had. big amateur background like Ray and Tommy had. And he was left-handed. And fighters tried to avoid southpaws, fighting southpaws. So I really had no contact with Marvin.

I just, he was like on the back burner where you know why look for trouble and then I got two letters came the same day one was from Tip O'Neill who was the speaker of the house you know with you know the job that Nancy Pelosi has now, and Senator Ted Kennedy, who was the senator from Massachusetts. And each letter said virtually the same thing. They were different, the counsel differently, that marvelous Marvin Hagler, that he was Marvin Hagler, was a constituent of theirs and was a great fighter. And he had been shut out of the middleweight championship picture. And that unless I arranged for him to fight for the middleweight championship, there would be a joint Senate and House committee hearing of which I would be the chief witness in effect. So I said, hey, I mean, this is crazy. So I got a hold.

I knew the promoter who was promoting him because he was a closed circuit exhibitor, Rip Valenti from Boston. His family ran the ticket office right near the old Boston Garden. And I said, Rip, I got these crazy letters. You've got to bring in the Hagler people, talk to them. So they came into my office in New York, Rip and the Petronelli brothers. Rip and the Petronelli brothers. And I was doing a middleweight championship in Monaco in about six weeks, maybe two months, with Antefermo and Coro.

And I said, look, I'll put Marvin on with a tough Argentinian named Cabrera. Really good fighter. And if he beats Cabrera, really good fighter. And if he beats Cabrera, guaranteed he will fight the winner of Antifermo in Coro. So it happened that the prince in Monaco was at odds with the mayor. So we weren't allowed to use the stadium for the fight. so we weren't allowed to use the stadium for the fight. We instead, the prince took a parking lot and made his own stadium.

Prince Rene was a big, big fight fan. And so Marvin goes on in the semifinal and the dressing rooms for the fighters are looked out and could see the previous fight going on. So they both watched Hagler destroy this really tough Argentinian. And you could tell when they got in the ring, not so much Antefermo, but Coro. Coro wasn't looking to press the fight with Antefermo. He was happy to take his money, lose the title, give it to Antifrema, and let Vito fight this beast, Marvin Hagler.

I'd read a story. Did Don King go through Hagler's mom to try to take him from you? Yeah, that was after Marvin was champion, where he beat Minter and won the title. And I was doing a fight in the winter, forget the year, against Tony Simpson, who was the tough British middleweight. It was a mandatory fight. And we were staying in this. It was in Worcester, Massachusetts,

and we were staying in this motel that was near the arena and you could walk from the motel to the arena, which we did. And by the time the fight was over, there was like a foot of snow. I mean, only in New England could that, boom, snow came

there. And so we were figuring a way without a path how we were going to walk back. And we were backstage at the arena. And that's when King, who was a spectator at the fight, made a move on Marvin's mother.

He was, you know, why is he fighting for this Jewish guy to fight for this, you know, fellow black, you know, that kind of, which King always did. So the mother came over apparently that night and said to Marvin that she had talked to Don King and shouldn't her son Marvin talk to Don King? And Hackler said, listen, if you mention the name Don King to me again, that's the end of our relationship. He was so, because King in history had done a tournament with ABC, and he had refused to allow Marvin into the tournament

unless Marvin signed a long-term contract with him. So there was a lot of animosity always between Hagler, Petronelli's, and Don King. Yeah, that's a great story. I've heard that one before. Before we let you go, I know the promotion never stops. The work never stops for you. Top Rank Boxing presenting

Jamel Herring against Shakur Stevenson. That's going to be this Saturday. Super featherweight. What can you tell us about this fight? It's interesting because Shakur Stevenson was one of the top, top amateurs around the time of the Rio Olympics. That was in 2016. Was that long ago?

Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Shakur was one of the leading, the leading best amateur fighter, and we were fortunate to sign him. And Herring had been a captain of an Olympic team, I think, in 2012. And he hadn't medaled. And then either before or after, he had served in the Marines two tours of duty in Iraq. And he had lost, he was fighting for, I think, King.

And he had lost a fight, two fights or something. And he was a free agent. And he came to see me. And, you know, he's a very impressive guy, you know, a staunch Marine. And, you know, he's very articulate. And he convinced me to give him a shot. And he turned everything around. He went to Brian McIntyre, who's a Terrence Crawford's trainer, to train him. who's a Terrence Crawford's trainer, to train him. He won the title at 130 pounds. And Stevenson, who was close to Terrence and close to all of the people in that camp, wanted to win the 130-pound title.

And so he's a mandatory for that title. And we arranged it. And a lot of people think that Stevenson's unbeatable, and he may be. But this Marine is going to give him a really tough, tough fight. And I wouldn't count Jamal Herring out in any fight. He's a tough, tough guy. And his Marine training has really fortified his attitude and how he looks at life. Herring, Stevenson, going to be fighting at 130. It's going to be on ESPN, ESPN Plus this Saturday. So as always, Bob, it's always a huge pleasure.

Thanks for taking the time and going through your extensive historical references here because it's my favorite fight ever. And I thank you for putting it on and joining us today. Thanks. Yeah, people ask me, is this, is Hagler-Hearns, I've always said it's my biggest, it's my greatest fight you know that I was involved in and that includes the two of the three Ali

Fraser fights and of course the sensational fight that we had two weeks ago with Fury and Wilder that was some battle hey are we going to get a fourth one no I don't think so.

Why not? I'm afraid it's a bad blood. Anyway, we'll see. Tyson is back in Manchester, England, and I'll be talking to him later today. So what's going to happen, do you think, with the heavyweight division now that series one again? So what's going to happen, do you think, with the heavyweight division now that Fury's won again? The question is, Joshua has the right to force Usyk to give him a rematch.

I think that would be silly for Joshua to pursue. I think what he should do is maybe tell Usyk to fight Fury, the Unified, and then the winner fights Joshua. That's the sensible thing. Whether that happens, I don't know. Well, you know, we'll be talking about it with Joshua, with Eddie Earn, with Usyk. Alexander Usyk was a good friend because he and Lomachenko were so close. So I've gotten to know Usyk very well over the years. Terrific young man. So we'll see. We'll work it out.

Well, I'm looking forward to it because the the heavyweight division is is backing away recently that it hasn't felt like in a long time that is correct that is correct thanks bob okay good talking to you you want details bye i drive a ferrari 355 cabriolet. What's up? I have a ridiculous house in the South Fork. I have every toy you could possibly imagine. And best of all, kids, I am liquid. So, now you know what's possible. Let me tell you what's required.

Life advice. The email is lifeadvicerr at gmail.com The part of my take, guys, did get into the fight scenario, Kyle. They gave you some credit there there but they did mention that you smoke so I don't know how you feel about that so Rudy they were really dismissive of you I think more dismissive than we

were of you so I don't know how you feel I mean I'm not claiming to be some fighter I did think it was ironic that PFT mentioned he was wearing a soccer jersey while Big Cat was calling me out for being a soccer fan and calling me soft so I don't know what's up Kyle I do smoke and um it definitely affects me that's for sure um but

you know what i got right i got a lot of heart i may not have full lung function but i definitely have full heart function uh at least for now so you can just tell them that yeah i think you would stab somebody too like i do i'm not saying we're bringing knives to this thing but i i think over the course of the life advice we love you even more but i think there's a a fear of what you might be capable of and um you're a big guy i got way too much credit way too much credit i listened to what they said i appreciate the compliments but i i think i've staged my life and get a little probably because they'll actually see you. They won't really see us

that often. So they have to like they have to keep you at like a decent arms length. Well, we're probably not actually going to do any of this. And then Hank jumped in going how come Hank isn't in it? So that's kind of what I brought up because I felt like Hank is actually if there's a core three Hank is the third guy.

So I think that's right. We don't have to deal with Billy's rhino mode. That changes a lot. I think we'd all be open to discussion there on that one. Look, they did a great job of the segment. I thought it was pretty funny. If you haven't heard of them, check out the podcast. All right. We had so much follow-up to the Mellow thing.

Kyle, you were right. We had so much follow-up to the Mello thing. Kyle, you were right. People were so pissed off about these guys wanting to become friends with Mello. They were as mad as you were about it. I'm glad. Let's read a couple. What if the 24-year-olds put up a basketball hoop in their driveway and just play it all the time and hope that Mello's coming home, sees them, and wants to shoot some jays that's the worst idea hey i just got done with a game hey i just got back from practice hey i have a day off i like basketball my name's carmelo anthony no let me get some shots up with the bros next door um okay somebody else chimed in and said these kids will only be able to befriend door. Okay.

Somebody else chimed in and said, these kids will only be able to befriend Mello by being themselves. 24 year old kids doing 24 year old stuff. Their only strength is convenience. That's a really great final sentence. They can provide Mello with a paparazzi free late night option for frat like parties and video games. They should not try to meet Mello on this level because they can't. They need to prove to Mello that they will respect Mello's privacy and they are fun. From my

perspective, they sound well-connected, wealthy, and are likely starting good careers. Therefore, they should have a decent number of attractive, anonymous girls coming over to their house, maybe not from Mello's perspective, or friend them on his staff, but be genuine. Yeah, I'm sure that's what Mello wants to deal with, a bunch of younger, hot 20-year-olds that live next door. As LA locals, they should understand the LA code of engaging celebrities. Leave them alone or at the most part, give a discreet compliment without distraction. If Mello is seeking an outlet at the end of his night that they can provide and they can prove they you right now, if I had a bunch of 25-year-old neighbors and once every few months they were firing up some vids and just hanging, although I guess I still would feel kind of like a loser. But how would you know? Would they ask you every week and then one week you're finally going to say, yeah? I would get asked.

I get asked now, but not by neighbors. I'm just like, too well i don't is that cool i think the lesson in all this too and that in some emailers brought up it's really good for whatever you think i think of myself trust you no one is less impressed with me than me so i think i'm really good at my job and all that stuff and you know i do think i'm i'm pretty good at this but on the grand scheme of things no and no. And I'm just close enough to fame to realize how not famous I actually am. So any comp of how I would handle this versus how Mello would handle this, there's no...

These are two different galaxies. So there's that. Do I feel like I just came at Kyle there? I wasn't. That's just something I wanted to say because there was a lot of pickups after that of emails that Kyle was nice enough to send. God, there's all this mellow stuff. I just feel like you were starting to say

that you would hang out with the 25-year-old guys once every couple of months if you were feeling it. Is that what you were starting to say? I would say that I would love to have the option. But then then again i don't know that i would i forget nice to be asked i forget who yeah right was it sean salisbury when he was at espn like lived with a bunch of 20 year old pas i don't i don't think he lived there full time but he rented a room from him yeah he did because some of the pas worked in radio and they were like it's awesome we hang out with him on the weekends when he's here.

It's the best. I was like, wow, that's like a harem of PAs that he would visit. Sometimes I think he rented a room from a bunch of younger dudes that had a house that were all, you know, entry level,

just above, not out of necessity. I don't know how it came together. I don't know if it was, just above, not out of necessity. I don't know how it came together. I don't know if it was, you know, it could have been one of those things where you go to the coffee maker at your office and then you just see, need a roommate and you pull the phone number down. And the next thing you know, he's living with a bunch of guys in his twenties. Cause then when I heard about it and I'd gotten along with, with Sean, um, he ended up saying a couple of things about me after the fact that I didn't really love, but he, he, like I hung out with him a couple of times.

He's a lot of fun to hang out. Don't get me wrong, but he, he may have just grabbed the phone number and been like, Hey, you know, I'm in the area, not full time. And then I think he lived with, lived with guys from work. So I'm pretty sure that was true and they loved it. They were like, yeah, he's a blast. And again, I hung out with him a couple of times. He was a lot of fun to hang out with.

Okay. You know, we'll do a quick one here because this podcast is so long. All right, here we go. 6'2", muscular, 195, was 205 pre-pandemic. I've had a hard time getting it all back. You'll get there. Today at the gym, I was finishing up incline bench set when a stranger asked me to spot him on the bench. Don't love it.

I'm kind of in the middle of my groove, but sure, whatever. I help him finish nine reps of 185. Nine reps of 185. Thinking we're done, I pivot to re-rack my weights and head upstairs. Hey, man, he calls out. I have one more set. Annoyed he didn't ask for my consent, but too much of a bitch to say no. I clean my station and stand around waiting for him to re-approach the bench.

My downstairs routine is totally done, and I'm ready to head upstairs to my last circuit and then get back home. He spends two minutes stretching obnoxiously, walks over to me, and tells me he has one more thing to do, and then he'll be ready. My guy goes to the back row, pissed off. I decide to ghost him and run upstairs, but then feel guilty, so I come back down. My guy is now doing some ab work, oblivious that I've been gone for a minute. I stand around for another minute like a total schmuck. Then he finally comes back to the bench, and I help him do four reps of 205. I'm clearly annoyed. Keep checking my watch and don't offer any of the words of encouragement I did the first time. Oh, so you were helping. One more. No help.

It's all you. See, none of that stuff the second time around. Four reps of 205. You may think that I'm shaming four reps of 205 needing a spot. I'm absolutely not. Good for you. I'm not that much of a meathead about it. If you're in there and you're doing it, you're pushing yourself through it.

So we're not rep shaming. We're not none of that. All right. So email continues. I'm clearly annoyed. Keep checking my watch. So we're not rep shaming. We're not none of that. All right. So email continues. I'm clearly annoyed. Keep checking my watch. Don't offer the words of encouragement. I storm off when he's finished without accepting his thank you.

Am I the problem for getting so annoyed by this and letting it derail my workout? Or did this guy violate spotting protocol? Not to mention spotting after pandemic is super gross. I can still feel like his exhale breath shooting up in my face. Nothing like the last rep chest exhale into the spotter's face. It is I've almost killed the guy inhaling

his breath. Just being totally like, you know. Okay. You're right. What he did sucks. Okay. For him to actually have like other superets in there and then doing back rows on top of all this other stuff. And if you were gone, for you to go upstairs and him to do back rows and then ab stuff and then not even realize you were gone. I mean,

at least that's going to be at least like five minutes at this point. Right. But what you're mad about is that now that this is stuck with you, you're mad at yourself. So first of all, get over the part of wondering if you were wrong, because you're absolutely not wrong to be annoyed by all this stuff. But like any of us that get into a verbal spat with somebody or just even an argument at work or whatever, and then you think of the great line to say afterwards and you're pissed because you're like, oh, that would have been a great line. Most of us are just not quick enough to pull that off in the moment. All right. Those are actually a very rare group, but that's not what this is necessarily. What you're mad about is you don't know if it's okay to just say, hey, fuck off.

I don't want to do this. Or no, dude, I'm not sitting around. Because most of us won't do that. I don't know that I would have done. But I'll tell you, when you actually do do it, it feels pretty good. Because it freaks everybody out. This guy is so oblivious or such a narcissist that he doesn't even realize that he's screwing up somebody else's routine that he wouldn't,

or at least tell you like, hey, do you mind? I have one more and it's going to be, I need two minutes of rest or I'm going to be whatever. I mean, a 205, let's not pretend you need five minutes of rest here, but you get the point. And what most of us wouldn't do, because we all kind of want to get through the day and we don't want to get into a bunch of conversations,

we don't want to just call everybody out for every single thing because it would probably get annoying. And I don't think you should. I don't think you should spend your life just going through, keeping score, acting like you're in charge of everything. But there is every now and again when you do do it, when you just go, hey, what are you doing? every now and again, when you do do it, when you just go, Hey, what are you doing? For example, there's one guy at my gym who uses a million different things and everybody kind of looks around and they eye roll and no one's ever said anything to him. And then finally I just said something. I just said, Hey, are you going to leave all your shit on that again? Like you always do. And it felt awesome. It felt awesome. You just did. Now the guy couldn't believe it. He was like,

oh, and then he kind of gave me like a little to back. And I just was like, I don't care. You can have all the attitude you want. You can be as offended as you want. You can act like I'm totally out of line because we're all kind of conditioned and nobody really ever calls us out on some of this minimal shit. Again, I don't think we should do it all the time, but every now and then it feels pretty good to do it. And I didn't care. I didn't care how he felt. I didn't care about his reaction. I didn't care about any of that. I didn't care about the future of it because somebody had to tell him. And so for the rest of us to sit there and all be annoyed, and trust me, there's other people that have been annoyed about this guy for a really long time. I finally felt like, yeah, you know what? Like we're actually

the losers for continuing to let this bother us and then not telling another adult like, hey, this kind of sucks for everybody else. Don't be this selfish in here. And when you know you're right, when you're undisputed in your rightness, there is no alternative other than you being right. It can feel pretty good. It didn't mean you have to get into it with the guy, but you could just say, hey, I'm not waiting around. And that's all you have to say into it with the guy but you could just say hey i'm not waiting around and that's all you have to say and it registers with him and it makes you feel better about it so if it does happen again remember that kyle you know i never like the random spot pull aside it almost seems like something like i'm not a shy guy but it kind of seems like something the impractical jokers would tell sal to do it's, go up to that dude while he's in his zone and tell him to come and spot you for,

I don't know, a minute. It just seems like... I know that you would probably say a lot of guys don't care, but then some guys like him and you were just very annoyed by it. So that's why I always didn't want to do it. When I'd go to gym by myself and like try to get on the on the bench. It's like I got to do something that I know I could do because I really don't want to just get a random guy to like get out of go out of his way. And the gym is a place where people are in their zones. It's just kind of intimidating. And like I said, I'm not a shy guy. It just seems like you kind of confirmed what I always thought. It's like you don't really know which guy you're going to get. And I know that the guy maybe who did the asking, push the buttons a little bit by taking a little while. But that guy was already on edge by that, just by the fact that he was asked to do this from a rando. So I don't know. It's like, I kind of confirmed my suspicions that some people really do not want to be asked. And that's why I just won't ask people to spot me and I won't bench a lot. You can find somebody though. You could. I kind of disagree with you there.

I really do. I think most people at the gym actually are I'm not going to like Mr. Olympia style gyms here. Although those guys are probably more helpful than anybody. I think there's always somebody you can find. Especially

if you just approach it that way and be like, hey, do you mind just making sure I get the last one or something like that? And then the guy will say, hey, how many are you going for? And give him the number. And then when you don't get it, you say you're dealing with an injury or something, or you just look at the bar confused, like, is that the 55? How many kilograms? Was that a kilogram? I do think people are actually more accepting of it and if you're kind of going into it deferentially like hey you know don't want to yeah if there's a guy over there

earbuds in doesn't move is only looking himself in the mirror has a timer going notebook belt all that stuff he's probably not the guy to ask

but there's usually somebody that I think you can ask but in this case the guy who's benching is taking advantage of the situation, doesn't care about. And I guarantee this guy's like a bad tipper. And he probably double parks. He's probably been the guy that's been leaving his dog shit in front of your house. Definitely. He doesn't pick up his dog shit.

So sometimes those guys need to be told like, hey, pick up your dog shit. So I don't really have anything to add anymore i assume no you know you know me i'm not a big gym guy but i used to not i used to do less reps and less weight at the gym when i was going to the gym just because i didn't want to ask people to spot me because i just didn't want to exactly convenience people and i felt like i wasn't even getting a good enough lift in because of that so don't be me i guess ask for help there's definitely a way to ask for help. I think most people would be accommodating, but you should treat it like you're scouting the draft.

Look around the room and go, who would be... The best is when I see dudes ask any attractive girl to spot them and they might not even need the spot. There was a girl in the Connecticut gym who lifted pretty heavy, and she asked me for a squat spot, and I was like, I don't know how I feel about this. Did you have to sign something first? You got to get in there. She was going heavy, and I...

Maybe she asked you on purpose. No, I think she fucked her back up. Cause I ended up not helping her enough. She was like leaning forward. And I was like, Oh, okay.

Just, just slam it forward. She was like, yeah, it was, it was one of the worst spots ever, ever. I mean,

I totally fucked it up. Cause I was just like, I can't, I just, I'm nervous. I can't get in there. I can't get in there. I can't get in there. So she kind of looked at me like, do you, have you never done that before?

Something you, you and I was like, Oh, Hey, I was like, you almost had it. She's like looking at me going and she really knew what she was doing too. She was very strong. She was on it. She had like a very specific routine. She was really cute too, but she was like jacked. All the guys knew her deal. It was like, oh, that's that girl that does a lot of heavy leg stuff or whatever. Again, this is a gym in Connecticut. If you're in Scottsdale listening to this right now, I understand that your entire gym is loaded with

attractive women that do heavy leg days, deadlifts and squats non-stop i've seen the videos so this was a rarity in our little nook in connecticut and i was like god i and then she asked me and i i just didn't you're supposed to get like right behind the person and then put your arms up underneath them and then kind of hold the front of their chest i was like this isn't happening like sorry you you i'll rather you rupture a disc than this go the way it's supposed to okay that was a little about me at the end uh please subscribe to the podcast thank you to steve and kyle as always i hope you enjoyed this one uh on the haggler hearns part of it because it is a it's a great moment in boxing history so we'll talk to you mond with Dilfer. Thank you.