The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Weird Wednesday: NFL Strength of Schedule, Plus Reality TV With Christo Doyle | The Ryen Russillo Podcast

Episode Date: November 27, 2019

Russillo talks about how schedules can fool us into false narratives about certain teams (7:45). Then Russillo is joined by TV producer Christo Doyle to talk about some of his shows, including “Gold Rush,” “Monster Garage,” and “American Chopper,” wrangling reality TV talent, pitching shows, and more (21:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

what's up hope everybody's uh gearing up for the holiday and made it safe or will make it safe on their travels out here in los angeles looking at the tuesday deal you probably saw that somewhere on social media the north and south i think on the 405 is that what they're calling it out here kyle the 405 yes we saw those pictures how do you feel about everything you're a scooter electric bike guy so this is even you don't even care i don't really mess around near or on the 405 so i don't you don't have a car correct no not anymore what happened to it impound repoed no i bought a bought a lemon i bought a convertible volvo from like 2003 when i came out here and transmission went in like eight months did you call the guy that you bought it from

yeah they're dude they gave me the papers they were like sorry i don't know what to tell you they put like 40 000 into this car it seemed like i saw all the stuff and just wasn't meant to be i'm gonna go ahead and guess they didn't put 40,000 me too me too me too the papers look legit though they got a good paper guy if that's the case now that i think about it you know how easy it would be to forge paperwork did you have anyone look at it if you bought the used car did you bring it anywhere to be like hey look if i'm gonna buy this car i want to bring it to a neutral voice here a mechanic that can look you know i was 22 i drove it around the blocks a couple times i was like wow this thing has some balls let's get it that was that was about the extent of my uh checking out well you

learned a lesson there where is it now did you sell it for parts or is it parked uh it was parked in my apartment spot and uh with no transmission and they noticed that it had no registration so they said i either had to get it registered or get rid of it. So I junked it. That's not how much money you get for that, junking it. I don't even want to tell you. It was less than $200. Really, you could be paying them to take it off your hands. Yeah, you're right. Right? If you look at it as a net positive. Okay, today's episode of the Ryan Rosillo show is brought to you by State Farm. And I know, Kyle, you State Farm to insure that Volvo.

If you're fumbling with insurance, State Farm agents are here to help because with over 19,000 agents that are local to you and available to help, whether you connect in person by phone or through the State Farm mobile app, agents are here to help. So go with the one that has coverage and agents you can count on. State Farm, talk to an agent today. There's been a lot of requests from my inner dudes, like my inner circle, for more Kyle updates. They want to hear about you becoming a janitor after college. That was with a college degree. You were still a janitor? No, it was during college.

After college, I graduated at Grounds Crew. Much better gig. Much better answer on that one. We have Christo Doyle, who has been the executive producer on American Chopper, Gold Rush. He's worked with Lance Armstrong. He was also on Dirty Jobs.

And he is as big a name as there is in good reality television. We also went to Vermont together, a.k.a. the University of Vermont, a.k.a. the Public Ivy. They used to tell you on the tour back in the early 90s. And he's a great guy. And I've talked to him before, and he's really on top of his stuff. And I want to talk reality television with him on a weird Wednesday before Thanksgiving. I'm going to do a little NFL. It's the schedule stupid. It was something I was going to do with Chris, but he and I went pretty long, especially when we started doing over under celebrity net worth. But we also want to remind

you that Drinkworks is sponsoring the podcast because we are brought to you by Drinkworks, home bar by Keurig. You know those high-end premium espresso machines people have at home? Drinkworks home bar is just like that, but it makes cocktails instead. With over two dozen drinks to pick from, there's a variety for someone to try something new. That's amazing, actually, the more I think about it, I don't even know what this was. In the middle of the read, I'm like, hey, does that mean slow, comfortable screw up against the wall? That's actually a drink. I don't even know if they're going to be thrilled that I said that, but there's a lot of moving parts in that one. It's part screwdriver. There's even a little,

that Galliano's bottle that you see, that you're like, does anyone ever use Galliano? Or is it just a state law? Is it a little, that Galeano bottle that you see that you're like, does anyone ever use Galeano? Or is it just a state law? Is it a federal law that every bar has to have a towering bottle of Galeano at the back at the very top that is never, ever used? Because it's a floater in that drink. So I wasn't trying to be sensual. I was just telling you, like, when people would be like my early days of memorizing everything, and I'd be encyclopedia and people be like hey what's a slow gin fizz i'd be like it's slow gin and ginger

ale um what's a cuba libre you guys remember that from cocktail it's just a rum and coke um i don't know is this even a good read anymore probably not what makes it even cooler though is that it's made with premium spirits real ingredients from our boys at Drinkworks. Real ingredients and natural flavors so you know it's going to taste good. This week only, this week only, you can receive 50% off the manufacturer's price by going to drinkworks.com. And at checkout,

the discount will automatically be applied. No codes needed. Available in limited states. And remember, please enjoy responsibly. Again, go to drinkworks.com, 50 the msrp so there you go before we talk reality tv what's your favorite reality tv show kyle real quick go ah storage wars storage wars big fan you kind of it's one of the great teases. I mean, nothing tops the tease of, what the hell's my guy's name? I've interviewed him.

Legendary name, DC. Maury Povich. Maury Povich. All right. Maury Povich, there's no greater television tease than we're going to find out if it's your kid next. Okay? I don't care who you are. You could be the Federal Reserve reserve chairman you could be a homeless

person you're sticking around for about three minutes to find out if that's that guy's damn kid second to that is only who's going to win this bin of crap and what's in it but i'd have to tell you on every storage war that i've watched and i I don't really love that show, the rounding up of estimates on stuff is egregious. It's hurtful. It's so bad. That's a $40,000 lockup. Yeah, I know. I'd be like, oh, my God, look at this box of Legos that are broken.

$300 there. $40. I remember there was one, the one where I was like, I'm out. I'm out. It was when I went, you know what? I don't care who wins this bin. I don't care who wins this storage war. It was the guy.

It was just a bunch of old Crayola markers. There were like 20 of them that were bound together by a rubber band. And he's like, up, use markers, 20 bucks. He went, where's the market for used Crayola markers? Is that secondary market that strong? Is this a market that maybe we just do a show just on that? Because if you're telling me you can take year-old markers from Crayola that are bound together by rubber band, those things had to be like a decade old. If you're telling me those are worth 20 bucks used, then there's all sorts of lies being told about

stuff okay so uh we'll we'll do some stuff more on gold rush probably not going to talk storage wars but i just i find the storage wars rounding up of what the guy actually bought like somebody has to be better at that so that's why i don't like that show as much kyle i'm sorry no you're right yeah but all the shows have their flaws right right? I mean, Gold Rush, it's like, oh, my gosh, something broke. Oh, my God, is the guy going to die? Oh, he didn't die again. I'm not rooting for a death to follow through on the tease, but there's a lot of did this guy almost die teases

in some of the Gold Rush shows where you're like, nope. And again, I'm not rooting for that outcome. It's just a little misleading. Speaking of misleading, let's do a little NFL here because a lot of the explanation about who a team is or who they are not is just basically the schedule. And I've done this segment before where you're just like, look, it is the schedule. Stupid. Cleveland is going to be the first example going into the week this past week. They had the toughest strength of schedule. Now, the strength of schedule is a bit of a moving target thing, and we're going to go over a couple of these teams.

They've got a handful of teams that I want to talk about, where Cleveland is now five and six, and we told you this was going to happen. We told you a couple weeks ago, hey, they have the easiest or second easiest, depending what you're looking at, schedule to close the second half of their season. Cleveland's going to end up winning some football games. Think how brutal their schedule was. Now they come out, Tennessee, all the hype, and it was awful. Remember, they had 20 penalties, 18 accepted. It was just they got dump trucked in that game.

They beat the Jets. They lose a close game to the Rams, but we really weren't sure who the Rams were. And now we realize that all year long, this malaise that we've had about the LA Rams is accurate. This is a four-week, let's see here, five-week stretch. Rams loss. They're the team that beat the Ravens,

one of their two losses in Baltimore. At the Niners, Seahawks, and at the Patriots. And then they actually had to go to Denver. And even though Denver's record isn't great, they're probably close to a 500 team and nobody goes up there in Denver. So if you really wanted to make this argument, that is a brutal six-week stretch.

Rams, Ravens, Niners, Seahawks, Patriots. If you want to trim off the outside of it, you go Ravens, Niners, Seahawks, Patriots. I don't think anyone else has had a four-game stretch that is that bad. So at that point, you're like, this team is 2-6. Yeah, 2-6. Like, they're awful, but then they play the Bills. Win a close game there. They beat the Steelers. We all know what happened in that game. They beat up on the Dolphins. 41 points. Most points scored in a game this season. They're now at 5-6.

Are they better? I don't know if they're better, but I know the schedule a hell of a lot easier. And they've got Pittsburgh, they've got Cincinnati, they've got Arizona, one more with the Ravens, and then they've got Cincinnati. They have four very winnable games the rest of the way. This team could be nine and seven and could be in the playoffs. And there will be all sorts of stories that tell you, yeah, they just started figuring it out. They did this, they started buying out, and they never gave up on Freddie. They did this. They started buying out. They never gave up on Freddy Kitchens.

All of those could be accurate, and they started using Odell more. Or maybe the teams they're playing just aren't as good. New England, they're now 17th in strength of schedule. Now, if we look at New England the rest of the way, we knew Steelers, they destroyed that Pittsburgh team 33-3 with Roethlisberger. I guess now we're going to say retroactively Ben was hurt, but like that dominant win never seems to count. Then it's Dolphins, Jets, Bills, which was actually a close game.

And that was the first time with Brady and the offense. You're like, wait a minute, what's going on with this team? They beat up on the Redskins. The Giants game was oddly competitive in the first half. It was one of those bad first half games again, and then they put up 35 on them. Shut out the Jets. That's the IC Ghost, Kanye slash Sam Donald game.

They beat the Browns, where the Browns are actually able to run it on in there a little bit. And then Baltimore, who now Baltimore is humiliating everybody, that 37-20 at their place doesn't even seem that bad. And yes, there are certain plays where you could argue if you were a Pats fan, that they were in that. But you know what? If you're going to do that, then you also have to point out

the Ravens were just giving New England field position in the first half of that one. They beat the Eagles. They beat the Cowboys. I think those are good wins because they are, whether it's at Philly or Dallas at home, they were grinded out games where their defense helped them, and Brady's just going to find a way at the very end.

And you could even say that that's being a little generous. But New England has this stretch where it's going to be Philly, Dallas. And even though Philly's record is what it is, and we're going to get to them in this little group here, I don't think Philly's a team you just go, hey, we're going to go in there and beat them because they're easy, despite all their injuries on offense. They're at Houston.

New England could lose that one. They've got the Chiefs that the metrics still really like despite what we think of their defense. Their run defense is terrible, but their overall DVOA numbers are very impressive still for Kansas City. I think that surprises some people. I would almost at this point rather have a Kansas City offense than maybe even a New England defense because I don't know if New England, despite that great secondary, are they really going to keep Kansas City in check here that many times when you're giving them 10 to 12 possessions a game? Are you going to have enough offense to keep up with them? But that's basically what we're looking at here where New England, let's include Pittsburgh as an easy game there if we're talking Roethlisberger's injury, but we knew

as they were running into this thing at 8-0, the schedule, 17th again in the NFL strength of schedule, was this team really that dominant? And it had as much to do with, look, we're going to give New England the benefit of the doubt, but a lot of it was schedule. San Francisco, their strength of schedule is now 31st. And we're going to do something here that's annoying, but Richard Sherman, who's an emotional guy,

he's always used those emotions to be a terrific corner, and I'm not going to fault something here that's annoying but you know richard sherman who's an emotional guy he's always used those emotions to be a terrific corner and i'm not going to fault him for that but he's he's doing this garoppolo argument that doesn't even exist because not that anybody's saying garoppolo sucks it's just that we're like hey we thought he was going to be a little bit better because the hype for garoppolo was probably too much because the one loss record i'm sorry kyle i know you don't like this stuff right now but But he's a middle-of-the-road NFL quarterback. And I don't think there's any evidence that tells us he's anything different than that. But then Sherman's like, you know, we run for 300 yards and he doesn't pass it up. No, no, no.

Hey, Richard, we're just watching the games. All right, man? Your defense is insane. I think I'd pick you against New England. I might even pick you against Baltimore this week. I'm not ready to do that necessarily. But if you go through their record, Tampa, Cincy, Pittsburgh through their record, Tampa,

Cincy, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, LA Rams, Redskins, Panthers, Arizona, and then they lost to the Seahawks at home, Arizona. But that beating of Green Bay, that win, that game is the one where I go, okay, I know that they're 31st in strength of schedule, that's San Francisco, but that was a demolishing of Green Bay. Now, if you want to do the, I don't know, this isn't even like a transit of property thing here, but you could go through Green Bay's schedule and go, where's the really good win there? Beat the Bears, beat the Vikings. I think that's probably it. There's like good wins. Is there a great win there? They beat the Broncos. They lost to the Eagles. They were destroying the Cowboys in that game. So looking back on that one, 34-24, there's a few college football games where I go, we shouldn't call that a one-score game. We shouldn't call Ohio State against Penn

State a close game retroactively. We shouldn't call Oklahoma against Texas a close game retroactively. Yes, Bama and LSU was a one-score game, but LSU was the better team for 60 minutes. And that's the difference between watching and then just going back and looking at everybody's resume. Green Bay was much better than Dallas. They scored some points late to make it look close. Then wins against Detroit, Oakland, at the Chiefs, but it's Matt Moore, and then I don't know what happens to come back.

Actually, we should call him Chip on the shoulder, Aaron Rodgers, but when he comes back to California, he can't get any yardage against the Chargers and then the Niners. They were awful in that game against San Francisco, their other win against the Panthers. When I did pose that question of, wait a minute, do we want to go through this and say, is Green Bay really a top 14, a top 16 in the NFL? Where is their great win? Harder response of the week was one Packers fan. And don't let this, don't let the Midwest vibe overshadow that Packers fan can actually,

the Milwaukee guy who's Bucks Packers, maybe the little badgers in there, that guy can be pretty vicious on social media. So yes, harder response of the week was they have eight impressive wins

because everyone in the NFL is impressive. Ooh. Ooh. Got me. That stings. What else do we have here? Okay, how about Chicago?

It's the schedule. Stupid. Chicago is now five and six. They lost to the Packers week one when everybody was picking Chicago, by the way. They beat Denver, the Redskins, the Vikings win. Nice win there. And that was when we started to hate Kirk Cousins,

but since then, I think we like Kirk Cousins. And then was just lost city L Raiders L Saints L Chargers L at the Eagles they beat the Lions they lost the Rams and they beat the Giants the Bears have the Lions again and so they're going to be six and six and are people going to talk themselves into this are you really going to listen to the nagging excuse that a lot of the plays that Trubisky had that were positive were called back because of penalties and it wasn't really on him? Are you going to try to tell us that Trubisky we're watching every week doesn't actually exist and that he's mysteriously sneaky good and that they're going to be six and six and you're going to start talking yourself into this?

No, they'll have won three of four and three of the wins are going to be the Lions, Giants and Lions again. And who knows? Are the Bears so good now? Are you so confident about the Bears? And Khalil Mack having a little momentum here that you're just going to go ahead and pencil them in a W on the road on Thanksgiving knowing what that game means to that Detroit fan

base? I don't even know if I would do that. But then they've got the Cowboys, then the Packers, then the Chiefs, and then who knows what the Vikings are going to be looking at doing in Week 17. But the Bears are going 6-10. Alright? Mark it down. Philadelphia. Philadelphia has now lost four of six.

Those losses were the Vikings, Cowboys, Patriots, and Seahawks. Guess who was going to lose to those teams? Almost everybody. Now, you hope in the NFL you kind of get one, those weird what-the-hell outcomes like Atlanta dominating New Orleans a couple weeks ago. But Philadelphia beat the Redskins, they beat the Packers, they beat the Jets, they beat the Bills, they beat the Bears,

and those are their five wins. And anytime they've played anybody good other than the Lions, they lose. But the rest of the way for Philadelphia, as I pointed out on our State Farm Safe Bet, is after I said they would lose to Seattle, look out, because at 5-6, they've got Miami, they've got the Giants, they've got the Redskins,

they've got the Cowboys, and they've got the Giants. Four out of five very winnable games, and maybe 9-7. Probably not good enough to be in the playoffs in the NFC with the depth, but are we going to start to say that Carson Wentz figured it out? Are we going to say, hey, they're starting to make the right adjustments. This team, they've

really bounced back. They believe in their head coach. Or are four of the five games really easy the rest of the way? And this is an Eagles team that I, as many, guilty of getting excited about in August. But let's remember, they went 9-7 last year. They went 9-7 and, I don't know, was it the Saints game

or Wentz was awful in that one too? We were doing the exact same stuff or maybe we were just saying he was injured again. So that leaves us with one more and it's Buffalo. Buffalo has done a good job for a team that, you know, let's face it when they were six and five and one, six and two, and now they are eight and three. Like, hey, look at Buffalo. Look at the Bills at eight and three. Their losses are to the Pats, the Eagles, and the Browns. That was a good win by the Browns.

Is there a really good win in there? Not really. Jets, Giants, Cincinnati. At Tennessee, I'm going to put that down as a good win, not great win, because I still, you know, Tennessee's constantly, every time I look up, look up like, oh, are they good again? Oh, wait, they lost and they're a 500 team. Dolphins, Redskins, Dolphins, Broncos, the rest of the way, the Bills have at Dallas, the Ravens, at the Steelers, the Patriots again at the Jets. They're probably going to finish up at two and three, so maybe that's 10-6. And are they good?

I just think there are certain things, kind of like the Big Ten West, where you can look up and a team has a great record and you go, how did that happen? Who are they playing? And that's not to knock Buffalo, because let's face it, this is an improvement for Buffalo even to be winning some of these games. But just remember that the next time you watch a TV show a couple weeks removed from this and the graphic bar says, do they believe in their coach now? Has this quarterback figured it out? Why has this defense improved? Look at these numbers the last few weeks. Usually it's just as simple as looking at who they're playing. And that's what's going to happen. It's happening with Cleveland as we speak. You know LSU's favorite furniture. It's from Burrow. Get it? As the weather gets chillier, a lot of us start craving cozy nights in.

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Now the executive producer and host of The Dirt after Gold Rush. His credits include American Chopper, Gold Rush, Monster Garage, Dirty Jobs, a bunch of other things. I'm lucky enough to know Christo a really long time. We've had him join us on ESPN in the past. So we want to talk about his career, reality TV, and all that stuff. And let's spend some time together, man. How are you? It's good to catch up.

I'm doing great, Ryan, man. It's always good to talk to an old friend. I know. I know. We're getting older. But you look good. We go way back. I was watching The Dirt.

And I always think everybody's paths are different. If you were to map this whole thing out, you're kind of in a spot now where you never thought it would happen. How do you feel? Do you still feel weird being on TV as a guy that was always behind the scenes for a couple decades? Oh, it's super, super weird. I mean, it's by far the strangest development of my career. I mean, I think I got into this to be behind the camera. Um, and I still think that's where I belong, honestly, but you know, it's really weird

to watch yourself. It's really surreal to be in that seat. Um, you know, just yesterday I got my first rough cut of the new season of the dirt and, you know, I had my kids and my wife in here and I was like, look how terrible I look. I mean, what a joke. My hair is a joke. I've got three chins. Like what in the hell am I doing on television? But you know, it's, it's definitely, it's definitely something that takes a lot of getting used to. All right. For those that don't know, and we've done this before you started, I don't know, would you say you started at ESPN? They put you in the PA program, right? Which I know is just basically set up to grind people out. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I, so my, my family, my mother is a, is a TV person. She's been a,

she, you know, I grew up watching my mom produce news. She worked at nightly news and then the today show. Um, and so I kind of grew up watching TV, producing stuff, you know, through my mom. And she got me some incredible internships in college. I did conventions for NBC. I did an inauguration for NBC. So I kind of got my foot in the door there. And then after I kind of had like a year where I did whatever the hell I wanted. And after that, I went down to Atlanta to work for NBC in Atlanta, but ended up working for the Olympic Committee.

And then that transitioned into NBC Sports and working for the golf tour for a little while. And from there, I got hired, you know, because ESPN and NBC overlapped for a while on golf coverage. And ESPN hired me to be a PA up in Bristol. And, you know, I think I served about 14 months there. You know, it was incredible, absolutely. But, you know, the most incredible learning grounds you can possibly get into early on in your career. I mean, you're a PA and, you know, you're making no money and working 70, 80 hours a week, but you're producing packages that get thrown on television. So it's, you know, it's kind of trial by fire. And that's definitely where I, where I caught the, uh, the producing. I did notice you said serve 14 months though. So were you the kind of guy that like shows up there and goes, Hey, this is an unbelievable opportunity. And you're a huge sports fan.

I mean, you were as into sports as anybody that, you know, we were hanging out back in college. Um, do you, you were just like, I can't do this Bristol thing. Correct. Yeah. I mean, it kind of got to that point. I mean, I was living kind of, you know, in, in what Newington, Connecticut by myself with a dog and you're working an incredible amount,

you know, it's just, I, you know, I did college football for a while. Um, you know, so you'd work all week prepping, uh, for the games and then you'd work Saturday for, you know, 14 to 16 hours. And I think, you know, most people just burned out. You know, you're surrounded. I think we had like 96% dudes that I was working with. And, you know, you're kind of in the middle of nowhere working nonstop. And I'm like, okay, wait a second. I'm not sure if this is a long-term, you know, a good long-term plan for me. But, you know, I don't knock ESPN at all.

ESPN was, you know, huge for me and huge for my career. I just decided that I was burning out of sports a little bit. And that's when I actually shifted gears and left sports and went into more of kind of nonfiction TV. Okay, so how did it become reality? I mean, every now and then it's something that's either a passion or it just sort of stumbles upon you next thing you know 20 years later. So how did it end up being reality TV and some of the best stuff that's on TV? Yeah, I mean, I went I went from Bristol to work for National Geographic Television. And, you know, I grew up a huge Discovery fan, you know, a huge, you know, kind of animal lover, you know, kind of old school Discovery stuff.

And I kind of decided I wanted to get into that stuff. And for me, it was, I want to be a part of television that is actually, if there is such a thing, that's good television, that's wholesome television that you take something away for, that kind of blows you away, shows you another world. So I worked at National Geographic for a while, working on some of their film stuff and doing National Geographic Explorer. And then my boss left and went to Discovery in 1999 and took

me. And from there, I just started diving into making some of my own stuff. I made a really bad space documentary there on the Science Channel early, And, you know, it just kind of snowballed from there. So was American shopper your first hit? Was that, was that the first thing in like the beginning? Like take us through that. Cause I imagine that's kind of the thing that puts you on the map of discovery. And then obviously I know they, I was researching it all last night and they pivoted to TLC, but that had to be kind of the first thing where it's like, all right, this is, I'm going to be a guy in this thing. Yeah, no question. I mean, um, American chopper, I worked on, you know, Miami ink early on. Um, that was kind of a hit as well. Um, so it was, um, you know, it was definitely,

it was definitely, um, it was, you know, kind of the golden age of, of, you know, you can say reality TV, but you know, I don't, I don't like to think of a lot of the stuff that we did as reality TV, although American Chopper definitely was. American Chopper was a sensation. That would definitely put me on the map at Discovery because I think you had to learn very early on there, one, how to make the shows and make the shows great and make them better season to season. But one of the things that most people don't really understand is how much goes into managing these personalities. And, you know, I was able to, to really get Paul senior and Paul junior to listen. Um, and I think that really, that really resulted in some great shows for, for a number of years there. Yeah. I mean, they fought the whole time and that's one of the themes that I think I take out of this and I, you know, we'll dig into some of the shows a

little bit, but whether monster garage, which I love because Jesse James was not, he was the most non atypical television host ever. Like, I don't think you guys get enough credit for deciding, you know what, we're going to do this thing. Cause I've always felt like TV hosts in a way. And don't take offense to this. I think I can say it too, but like the people that are kind of successful and the people, the decision makes gravitate towards, like, you have to be kind of like an exaggerated asshole on tv and it's like oh okay you know like i know what this person is and jesse james was like i'm just me and i'm kind of a dick about it sometimes and it worked like when you think of all of these whether it's paul his son the hoffman crew um you know honestly like you've worked with some massive alpha guys who is the toughest guy to work with that's a tough that's a toss-up honestly you know in their own ways they were all presented kind of new challenges but you know like like i can tell you i've had some epic battles with jesse james he uh eventually put my cell phone number on twitter at one point which was uh which was unbelievable.

Are you serious? I don't think I ever knew that. Yeah, he and I have had some battles. And, you know, Jesse is exactly who you think he is. You know, he's immensely talented. You know, he's kind of a visionary when it comes to, you know, building bikes. And now I think he's doing guns. But he is prickly, right? And those prickly personalities are the ones that really pop on television and senior, junior are

a perfect example of that. Um, you know, that show, you know, the bikes are obviously the stars of that show, but their relationship, their father, son relationship, I think is what kept that show going. Right. Because, um, you know, you kind of needed to see where this is going and, you know, those guys, I kind of, in that show, it was kind of a mess because I was kind of in the middle of a, of a family drama. So I was like, you know, almost as much a family therapist there as I was a producer. Um, and it got, and it got ugly. Um, but you know, like, like Lance Armstrong, I did a ton of stuff with Lance when we sponsored, uh, Lance's, uh, the cycling team. And, you know, he presented unbelievable

challenges. Like I, how tough was that? This is before I come across someone, right. This is before everything became public, right? Christo. Yeah, this is before it all became public. And, um, you know, my, my job was to basically, you know, collect a ton of footage and we produced a series called chasing Lance, where we basically followed Lance for six months leading up to the, I think it was the 2005 tour. And it was nearly impossible to get him to even sit down and do an interview with us. And, you know, we were giving him, you know, $10 million a year to sponsor the team.

And he was just very standoffish. And I, I chalked it up to, you know, kind of being, you know, a la Michael Jordan, where, you know, anything that gets in his way, he sees as an obstacle and impediment to getting that championship. And Lance was very much like Michael Jordan, but what I didn't know at the time is that he also didn't want the cameras around after the Tour de France stages because he was doing what he needed to do,

doing his illegal activity. And it was just a really wild time, really wild time. So all these guys really present, I think the common denominator, you're right, is that the guys that are difficult, the guys that aren't simple are the guys that are going to make some great TV. You know, Todd Hoffman is a challenging individual for sure, you know, and he's a visionary in a lot of ways, but, you know, that also creates a situation where you're going to butt heads with production. So to just explain it more to people, too, like you're a guy's guy, okay? I mean, back at school, you transferred to Vermont, right, after playing football at, was it Bates?

Yep, yep. So I've noticed in my career, like some people that are behind the scenes that are producer types can be really submissive i think agents can be that way too and it's almost by design like the agents and now that i've gotten older i've been around it long enough i'll have situations where i look back and be like oh my god my agent didn't have my back there my agent thought i was a loser like my agent was just yapping me to death. Like they were just being this submissive person that knew, okay, I'm not the talent. I am the agent. I'm the broker. So I need to be, I guess submissive. I just keep using that word at knowing your personality and knowing that you're having to deal with these guys. And yes, they're in front of the camera. How tough was that for

you to not just tell these guys to F off sometimes? It probably happened at some point where you just kind of turned back into being a guy. I definitely told them to F off at times and vice versa, right? But I think the reason that all of these guys would say they respect me is because I called it like it is. I wasn't going to tiptoe around them. Like in Todd Hoffman's case or, or in Paul senior, Paul junior's case, I told both of those sets of guys that, you know, the goal here is to get you guys to season 10, right? The goal here is to make the show last as long as possible. And I know how

to do it. And you're either going to listen to me or you're not right. So, you know, I kind of, I kind of told them and I, you know, for, for better or for worse, right? Like sometimes I'm probably, I'm probably saying too much or being too honest, too upfront, too alpha. But I think in the long run, they really respected that. And Todd is now not on Gold Rush. And I firmly believe that if he had listened to me three or four years ago, he'd still be on Gold Rush.

So I think you're absolutely right. I think that's where a lot of these shows go wrong, is when the talent takes over and steers the show and ultimately drives into the ground. And I think you need someone really strong on some of these shows to say, hold on, like, look, this is what's best for the show, which in turn is best for you. So then what was the toughest time?

What's the maddest, the toughest, the biggest disagreement you've had with any of the guys that you've worked with? was the toughest time? What's the maddest, the toughest, the biggest disagreement you've had with any of the guys that you've worked with? The first thing that pops to mind is, um, being on a beach in Mexico. Like I think it was my 40th birthday trip with all my friends. So there's like, you know, like 18 of us at a house in, in, in Mexico. And I'm on the beach in a screaming argument with Paul jr. Uh, about, you know, keeping the show going and, you know, just a knockdown drag out. And, you know, I didn't realize it,

but all my friends are kind of sitting on the deck listening to my massive brawl with Jr. And we had some epic brawls. You know, I've had, that's definitely the one that jumps out at me. But, you know, I've had some really ugly conversations with Todd Hoffman as well. And a lot of those have actually made it onto the dirt. And, you know, those are kind of the behind the scenes that was going on with Todd Hoffman. A lot of the drama that people don't ever really hear about is kind of why the dirt was born, right?

There was almost more interesting stuff going on behind the scenes than was able to make it into the show. And that's why we decided to, to break that fourth wall. So let's go down that road then, because I know, you know, Gold Rush is my favorite show that you've done. You know, how obsessed a bunch of us were, you know, guys that all knew you and we didn't like the show because of you, we just loved the show and then you became a part of it. So it was really cool for us on the outside. And, um, kind of i'm not that i've spent a ton of time you know being a philosophy guy here and trying to figure out why i like gold rush but i there's just so many different things where i was like i don't really like hoffman and then i kept finding myself liking the hoffman crew

despite their absurd i would say unrealistic. They're the most optimistic people despite every single challenge. And then I think the more I started to dislike Parker, the more I started to like the Hoffmans. So go back a couple of years. What happens where a Todd Hoffman ends up off a show where I've read your interviews and I agree with you. I think there's a silent majority out there that like the Hoffman crew more than everybody else.

I don't know if that's a, an executive decision or what happens there, but how do we go back a couple of years where you're arguing with Hoffman and then it leads to him not even being on the show, which I thought your dynamic together, especially on the dirt is something that really was kind of the backbone as this thing went season after season. Yeah. I mean, it was an executive decision above my head, for sure. And honestly, this is where I could probably say things that I shouldn't say. But the truth is, and I'm going to always speak the truth, the truth is, this was an executive decision that occurred when I was no longer involved in the show. And I firmly believe that Todd should still be a part of Gold Rush, whether it's the main show or whether it was the spinoff. But I feel like he should still be on Discovery's air because I think I think they made some fatal mistakes in the end there, like in terms of where they decided to mine, which led to their demise. And I think with the stronger with the history that I have with him, I think he probably would have listened to me had I still been a part. And he probably could have righted the ship. But I think he could, I think Todd and

his crew, you know, if they had, they stayed in the Klondike and they dialed in their mining practices, I think they could be getting a good chunk of gold every year, maybe not as much as Parker. But I, but I just, I just firmly believe that, you know, we could have seen a redemption story there. And in my opinion, it was a missed opportunity. Is the Hoffman crew decision to go to Ghana, the worst single decision in the history of any television show you've ever worked on? Absolutely. Absolutely. No question. And I think, you know, and this is what I, where I battled with Todd, right? Like Todd, uh, is a, is a really great guy. And he, um, he is a visionary in a lot of ways.

I think he gets, and he's the first one to admit this, right? He gets kind of distracted by the shiny thing in the corner instead of keeping his eye on what could have created a stable mining operation for five more seasons, and he got distracted by diamonds in down in, in, in Guyana. And, um, you know, he's always looking for, and I, you know, he, he sometimes wears the producer hat and he wears it too often. And he's, you know, kind of fancies himself Spielberg. And I was like, Todd, like, I don't really know why we need to go down there. You know, like one, I don't know how we're going to have financially afforded to how are we going to set up a shooting operation down a guy on it?

And how is Raw TV going to handle this? And, you know, and so it was a big, big thing. And it was a debacle. It was it was the debacle that everybody thought it was going to be. And I think it did a lot of damage. I just I know I told you a little bit about it. but the number of phone calls that went around from dudes when in the middle of the Guyana trip where, you know, the Hoffman dad wrecks their sorter with the backhoe and, you know, the gold thing's a disaster and they're sluicing garbage in like work boots.

That are basically their site was a dump, not a mine. because they basically their site was a dump not a mine and then they found like one or two diamonds and todd's like guess what boys now we're diamond miners and like we're just calling each other like this is insane all of a sudden i think i think todd said it best i think todd said it best he said we found enough diamonds to make a tiara for a mouse yeah like they found the most pathetic amount of diamonds you know like if you and i went down there with a shovel and started randomly digging in diamond country i think we'd find as many you know i it was just nothing went right and the logistics of getting down there i mean i can't even explain to you how insane it was to get, you know, all the crew and equipment, everything down there. It was just, it was a mess. And I think, I think that's kind of a, you know, that's the prime example of,

of, uh, you know, the way Todd's brain works and that, you know, that, that brain created some absolutely revolutionary television that, you know, Todd and, you know, a few of the key principles of raw TV or why this show really, really hit early on. But I think that also was kind of led to his, you know, his demise on Discovery. But it's a really good point that you've made. And again, it's like when I sit there and be like, why do I watch this show? Why do I like this show? What is it about this reality show that I'm kind of curious what's going to happen next week?

Even if there are times where I'm like, this show's terrible. Why are you watching it? And Gold Rush was not terrible. It was awesome. But the fine line between success and failure, because in the beginning, the Hoffmans couldn't be worse at it. I mean, they were terrible. And you almost became annoyed at their optimism.

And then they had some good stretches. And then, like you said, instead of just, okay, build on what you've had, stay in the same area, you know the area,, the area, you know, the water, you, you know, all the little things. Why do you add this absurd challenge to be in a foreign country? And, you know, you have really nothing than just one trip. What is it about these shows success that is related directly to the level of success or failure all the miners have, or even, you know, look, you could even do it on some of the fishing shows or anything else. Like everyone can't be a disaster, but at the same time, it can't also go smooth every single week.

Yeah. I mean, I think in, in gold rushes case, gold fever is actually real. So like I've been up there, right. I've looked in that sluice box and seen the gold, right. When you're, you actually do catch a fever, you know, and, and I think that that definitely is a part of why these guys are always trying to, the grass is always greener, right? Wow, this claim is always better than the next claim.

They do have a certain amount of fever here. And then you add the TV to it, right? The TV is a whole another layer for these guys, which is, imagine doing this, right? And dumping a million of your own dollars into, into making this work. You have that stress, but then you have the stress of, oh yeah. And then by the way, you're going to have four cameras on you all day, every day. So every mistake you make, every dumb move you make, every failure is going to be, you know, thrown on international television. So that stress is there too. So that's, that's also why they're

always trying to be in a successful situation. They don't want to look like fools, right? And I think that's kind of what Todd did to a fault. And I think whereas you're itching to get better ground and to go chase gold nuggets in a new location, and a lot of times the best thing to do is to set up on kind of decent ground and run volume and just get better at it. More with Christo in just a second, including his plans for the future. But Bombas, that's where you want to get your gear, kids. If you're giving everyone in your list Bombas socks this holiday, you deserve a spot in the Holiday Gifting Hall of Fame.

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So how does the success of a show where, let's face it, and I know you're not going to give me any numbers here, but like any TV show, you go, okay, we get to year five, there's this kind of money. And then I'm sure it becomes weird because, uh, you know, discovery is probably sitting there. The production company is like, Hey, this was our idea. This is our pitch. And yes, it's going well, but you know, we could have just picked other miners too. And then it's like, wait a minute, these guys are great characters. We don't want to lose them on the show. So eventually like some of these guys

start making serious money. So how much do you think the money per season for some of the minors or some of the guys that are running these boats or all this kind of stuff, like how much do you think that money impacts some of the decisions that they start making as these seasons go on and on and on? I mean, I think it definitely, I think it definitely plays a role for sure. Right. Like, you know, you know, that's, that's part of the discovery's. Like, you know, uh, you know, that's, that's part of the discovery's job is, you know, that, that includes the executive producer and, and talent management

and the general manager of discovery is to kind of keep these guys in check. Right. Like they do tend to fall in love with themselves. I mean, anyone, anyone who's on television that, you know, is getting recognized at every airport and, you know, you, you get, you know, a million followers on Twitter, you're going to start to, uh, you're going to start to fall in love with yourself. But I think what happens inevitably in all of these shows is the budgets get high and, you know, the, if the numbers start to slip, then the budget, you know, is exceeding where the numbers are. And, you know, that means that the show's not going to, the show's not going to last, right? So the show has to stay affordable because we're still talking about cable TV here, right?

We're not talking about a network show that's going to go 30 seasons or Survivor, for example. We know that most of these shows, if they go 5, 10 seasons, that's a huge, huge feat, right? And once these people and the budgets are pricing themselves out, then it's just a matter of time before it goes away. Did you like being just feet on the ground in Alaska producing the show? Absolutely. Although, you know, I think that there's a misconception, right, that the network people are making every aspect of the show, right? Like I'm the first to admit here that there is no gold rush without the production company, Raw TV that made that show, right? I think what's special here. And in this case, what's special here is one, it's just an unbelievable idea that hit at the

right time when the economy was turning down. Todd's phenomenal talent, the talent was phenomenal. There's amazing people out of this raw TV that makes the show out of London, really, really talented people. And then I think, you know, then you can add in me and say that we just had this incredible thing and an incredible creative chemistry that was able to, to foster it instead of like, you know, instead of crush it to death. Right. So I think the magic is like getting that right formula of people together. And honestly, I think one of the biggest things here is a lot of times, especially nowadays, there can be too many notes given on a certain show, too many notes from too many people,

right? And that can water a showdown. Early on in Gold Rush, we didn't have that. We were allowed to like really develop a unique personality in that show. And I think that's really what makes these these the ones that work are the ones that cut through right so the ones that cut through all the you know hundreds and hundreds of shows that appear on you know cable networks every every day the ones that cut through the ones that have a distinct personality and a really truly kind of piercing idea so So what was the pitch then for Gold Rush? Because I'm going to ask you later on

like the worst pitches you've ever heard, but what is it about this pitch? Like take us at the very beginning where it's either a phone call to you or it comes across your desk or somebody at Discovery. Like how did you sort out where you're like, wait a minute, this Gold Rush thing

might be a little different. Yeah, so, you know, Matt Kelly, who worked in development at Discovery, is the one who pitched this show. And what happened was Raw TV, they're out of London, they were casting or looking for people in Alaska. So they put something, I believe, on Craigslist in Alaska saying, we're looking for, you know, XYZ. Todd Hoffman saw that. And in true Todd Todd Hoffman fashion wrote to them and said, you know, that show stinks. I've got a better show. Um, a bunch of me and my buddies are going to go North in mine for gold because we're out of jobs. So that sparked, um, you know, kind of creating the taster tape.

There was a seven minute, eight minute taster tape that right away kind of blew everyone away. It was so different. It was, you know, and I think, you know, the double edged sword of being at Discovery is that you kind of have to be first in your space, right? We're not going to make a show that most likely had someone else has done before. And this was first in its space, a bunch of randoms going mining in Alaska. You know, and it was, and it was kind of scary in a lot of ways too, but we also saw that it had so many elements of what we know, you know,

we needed at discovery to make a show work, you know, one great talent, man versus nature, um, you know, nature, like Alaska alone has always worked well for us. You know, you've got big machines, you've got some engineering, you've got, you know, and I think the magic sauce and all discovery shows forever has been wow factor right like you watch show and you go holy crap i didn't know that i didn't know that you know thousands of years ago gold shot out of the ground and and got you know you got basically washed down into into the bed bedrock layer like that's super cool and that's super discovery and that kind of like taps into the little boy or girl in

all of us. So what, what is it about us? Like, are we really simple? Is the audience simple to figure out? Do you know pretty much the formula? Hey, people are going to like this. They're not going to like this. I mean, some creative people will be like, Oh, this is brilliant, but not enough people got it. I understand kind of the artsy element of certain things. I mean, hell, even some stuff we did on the radio show where if there were managers that were like, Hey, we really didn't like that. I'd be like, great. I don't, you're not the person I want to like that segment. It doesn't, it's not speaking to you at all. So that's a compliment. Thank you. Um, but I wonder if there's this thing that you guys have behind the scenes where the difference between yes and no on a show is a

simple formula where we're very predictable as consumers. I wish there was a formula. You know, I think there definitely isn't. And you, the audience, is not simple at all. And the audience is actually getting more and more complicated as we talk. You know, as people start to cut the cord more, there's more stuff out there. Right. And there's more to, there's more to consume on different, a whole bunch of different platforms. So it's big, it's harder to figure out how to, how to cut through, you know,

it's much harder to figure out how to, how to make someone stop and notice something, you know, I don't, there's, there's the hits have been fewer and further between lately. And it's, you know, I think, I think discovery and I'm, I'm not there right now, I'm not at Discovery, so I don't really know what's going on in their development meetings. But I know that they have a good sense of who their viewer is and what they need to be and what that brand means. But it is rapidly changing, and it's harder. I mean, there hasn't been another gold rush or deadliest catch in 10 years at Discovery. It's been very hard to find that show because, you know, so many things have been done.

You know, everything's kind of been done. Not everything has been done, but, you know, a lot of stuff, the low-hanging fruit has been done. You know, and so it's definitely trickier. It's definitely trickier for anyone involved in the industry right now. What happened with St. Hood's? It was supposed to be a show about these kind of loosely connected gangs, you know.

So, you know, it always got labeled as kind of the Southie thing, but there were different crews and everything. When that happens, go ahead. I mean, it just, it didn't work out. Yeah, I mean, for just didn't work out. Yeah, I mean, for every, you know, I think it's important to note, like, that for every American chopper, for every Deadliest Catch, Gold Rush, there's, you know, a hundred things that didn't work, right? And I definitely have a hundred shows that have not worked, and Sane Hoods is just one of them.

You know, I'm sure the audience has absolutely no clue what Sanehoods is because they never saw it. But I think that I can speak for the people. I shouldn't speak for the other people that were involved in the show. But for me, as the executive producer of that show, I think where we went wrong is we tried to get too ambitious. So Sanehoods was about these crews that still do and have always kind of run the neighborhoods in Boston. And kind of the guy that we had that was at the cornerstone of that show was a guy named Pat Knee, who used to run with Whitey Bulger and the Winter Hill Gang. And we kind of got in with those guys, and they were, to kind of, I don't really know why they were, but they were willing to kind of lower the curtain and show us some of the

stuff that they do. And I think we tried to be too ambitious in, in capturing as you can imagine, it was really tricky, right? It was really tricky to figure out how to capture kind of what these guys were doing when a lot of it was, you know, not exactly legal. Yeah. That's what I didn't get. I mean, I'm just sorry to interrupt, but like, yeah, it's the Roslindale guys. It's, it's Southie. It's, you know not exactly legal yeah that's what i didn't get i mean most of what i'm just sorry to interrupt but like yeah it's the roslindale guys it's it's southie it's you know i don't know if like i forget was mattapan part i don't like i think there was a dorchester crew like i didn't understand why anybody was like if they're actively still taking bets and they're

they're intimidating other people like there's one thing to go gold mining another thing to be like no we're we're kind of these guys on the fringes of the law and yeah, no problem. And then there was like a thing where a TV got thrown out the window. And I was like, was that real? And then guys went to an alley and the cameras didn't have, like,

there was just a lot of things that I had a hard time figuring out, like what the hell was actually going on. Yeah. And you, and you're right. And you were right. So I think at the, at the heart of it,

what I think, what I wanted to pitch the show as is, is just called bookies. And I wanted it to be about the bookies, you know? And I think like we're bookmaking is at the heart of it, what I think, what I wanted to pitch the show as is just called bookies. And I wanted it to be about the bookies, you know, and I think like where bookmaking is at the center of it, because one, that's not, it's most of what they did anyway, right? It's most of where things have ended up. Back in the day, they did a lot worse, right? They were, you know, it's much more a mafioso type stuff, but now it's largely what they do is bookmaking. So I think we just tried to open it up too much instead of focusing on what, what they really,

really did. And then, you know, get dealt. Cause I think that one of the most interesting parts of those guys, what, you know, my experience with those guys was just that they're huge personalities.

I mean, you know, these, these Boston Southie personalities, like, you know, we had this guy named the 10 man because they said he had no heart, you know, and it's just these huge personalities.

And I think that should have been the strength of the show with kind of bookmaking as the bookmaking and kind of the history of these crews as the spine. But we got off the rails. And a lot of times you get off the rails on these shows and, you know, you only have a few, you know, a set number of weeks to make these shows. And then you got to figure it out in post.

And I think we just kind of cornered ourselves on that one. So how often do you get a pitch? Now, I'm sure at your peak, you must have been getting all sorts of terrible things. Can you share with us some of the worst pitches you've ever heard? Oh, God. I mean, I didn't, you know, there was, I was mostly production when I was at Discovery. I was production and development of my title, but I had so many hours of production that I didn't do nearly as much of development as our development team did. But, you know, there were definitely days when we would watch a pitch tape and laugh our asses off, you know, like I, just some really, really bad. And I think, I think that the pitches that are bad are the ones that just feel completely scripted, right? They're just, that's just not who we are. You know,

discovery is different in a lot of ways, in a lot of history, a lot of these were, we can't do what Bravo does. You know, we, you know, the BS, the BS factor with these shows is, you know, we Gold Rush can't in any way feel like it's not real because it is real. And, and so a lot of the pitches that we would get would just feel like, you know, complete BS. And, um, you know, I think that's, I think it's much easier to make a pitch tape and, and script it. Um, it's much harder to be fly on the wall. Like we have been in Gold Rush for all these years and make it work.

So basically discovery was, was never going to do some sort of repo show with, with a tow truck company or something like that. Um, no, no, I, you know, unless we can, we can literally be fly on the wall because I think the discovery audience is, is really savvy, right? I think, you know, it's a incredibly overused term, but authenticity is absolutely critical. And anything that doesn't feel real gets sniffed out, right? And nothing on Discovery isn't real,

but, like, we do have to, like, make sure the cameras are in position and, you know, we have to, like, produce it so the show looks and feels right, right? But if anything feels overproduced, it doesn't work. And I, you know, I think that's what happened with Sanehoods. And I think that's happened with a lot of stuff that we've done. It's just, you know, it's just kind of the nature of the beat. Yeah. And just so I don't want to like, cause I've got one more thought with you. I mean, your, your hit rate versus a creatively, like this isn't happening right now. Um,

your hit rates, incredible hit rate's incredible. It's incredible. And it's something you should feel really proud of. I mean, it's just true. Like you go through all Christo's credits, you look through it and you're just like, my God. So what's next for you then? Because, you know, I know this and you've alluded to it a bit.

You're not technically with Discovery the way you were in the past, but then you were brought back to host the Dirt, which was always the right call. You have an intimate relationship with these guys now going on a decade. I hope Hoffman at some point is part of the show again, because like I said, the more I started to dislike Parker, the more I started to really miss Hoffman, you know, even though in the beginning he, I was just like, what is wrong with this guy? And then I realized like Hoffman was the dreamer and you know, you want a dreamer when you're home on your couch. Um, and you know, I mentioned that thing abouter like parker is young and he had a lot on him and he's really really good at this but i just you know as somebody

myself who worked construction most of my life growing up as a younger kid like i don't love when you treat your subordinates like crap and that's kind of what i think parker's deal is and it it annoys me like i find him unlikable every single season despite his incredible success and and being like a minor by birth so you know congrats to him and good for him and all that kind of stuff but like i miss the everydayness of a todd hoffman so i don't know what any of that stuff means for you i think it's incredible that you came back to the dirt because i think that would have felt impossible a couple years ago when we talked so what actually is next for you well we, we have the, the dirt is going back to kind of its roots,

which is really cool, right? This whole thing started as an after show. Um, you know, basically started as like just a little behind the scenes thing that we threw up on the internet on discovery.com back in the day. And it, it evolved into an after show and it all, you know, kind of always should have been an after show. I think cause think, because it's much harder to make a show where you're hyping what you're about to see versus breaking down what you just did see. So we're finally going back to a true after show. The air dates of The Dirt will come out very soon, but I can tell you that it's going to be prominently featured in the second half of Gold Rush. We've already shot a whole bunch of them. It's just a lot of fun for me to get together with these guys. It's, you know, it's old,

it's second, it's second nature. We give each other a lot of crap and it's a really, really fun show. So I think that's what I'm doing in the immediate future right now, but I'm also developing a ton of my own ideas right now. It's a terrifying time to think about starting a production company. But I'm but I'm thinking about doing that developing my own ideas I'd love to get back to you know get making this really great stuff and I'm really trying to talk to a lot of different partners and you know figure out whether I should partner with a production company or start my own thing but you know it's an exciting time in TV there's a million different places for great content to air. You know, all the Netflix's of the world, the Amazon's, the Apple TV's. It's exciting if you're a content maker. And I think that's where my future lies.

I think a lot of Gold Rush fans are because they know how genuine it is for you. And it's just great getting to watch this all from, just for people that want to know, Christo was not a bad hazer. He was a good hazer. He had fun with it. He was not evil. It's great to watch your success too, Ryan, man. It's like, it's a lot of fun, man.

It's a lot of fun to watch what you're doing. I mean, I listen to your stuff all the time while I'm mowing the lawn. Well, the first time we ever hung out is you, well, I listen to your stuff all the time while I'm mowing the lawn. Well, the first time we ever hung out is you. Well, I want to say, I don't want to get in trouble here, but I think the statute of limitations are over kidnapping in 1993. Yeah, you can talk about it. I think we're safe now. I think we're safe now. Yeah, I just showed up.

Christo had the cool house. There was like six guys there, and they sat me down on the couch, and everybody bet on every single game on Saturday. And I was like, I there and they sat me down on the couch and everybody bet on every single game on saturday and i was like i'm in heaven this is unbelievable and then uh i had to play we had some good times up there didn't we yeah i i hate how much i still miss it which is really weird and i think it's a flaw where if i hear a song from that period i'll be like oh man like that was unbelievable and then somebody would call and be like hey i feel like playing bill walsh's college football game on Genesis. And I would have to hike all the

way down from the dorms at two in the morning to play Pete or somebody. And then he would play with them at Smith. And it was brutal. Cause it would just be like three, four cross block. And I, you know, there's nothing I could do. There's nothing I didn't. Then you just take your, your beating, but you guys are so into sports that I was like, oh my gosh, these guys, these guys are amazing. And because you were all sort of over it collectively. And it's always weird too. Like if I have a younger guy come up to me and be like, Hey, do you remember this? I'm like, no, I don't remember that. Like, are you kidding me? But the younger person always remembers the, the older stuff. And it's just, look, you were a smart guy then. And all of this makes sense that you've had this kind of success.

So I'm happy for you. I can't tell you. That means a lot, man. Thanks a lot. And I'm just as happy to watch your success, too. I mean, we had some amazing times up there. And there's actually, if you think about it, there's so many good people that came out of there. And I'm glad all of us are doing well.

Absolutely. And you can follow him at Christo Doyle. Just don't give him a hard time, all right? Because it's the holidays. You can give me a hard time. I can handle it. If I can handle Jesse James, I can handle it. Okay, that's it for today. We'll be back on Monday.

Monday. Please subscribe, rate, and review as much as you possibly can. And we'll be back with Chris Long. So everybody have a great week. Thank you.