The Scathing Atheist - 667: CAIR-ful Edition

Episode Date: December 18, 2025

In this week’s episode, Christianity will put the PR in CPR, Kirk Cameron gets eschatological and makes quite a mess, and president of American Atheists Nick Fish will be here to talk about serious stuff. --- To make a per episode donation at Patreon.com, click here: http://www.patreon.com/ScathingAtheist To buy our book, click here: https://www.amazon.com/Outbreak-Crisis-Religion-Ruined-Pandemic/dp/B08L2HSVS8/ If you see a news story you think we might be interested in, you can send it here: [e-mail] To check out our sister show, The Skepticrat, click here: https://audioboom.com/channel/the-skepticrat To check out our sister show’s hot friend, God Awful Movies, click here: https://audioboom.com/channel/god-awful-movies To check out our half-sister show, Citation Needed, click here: http://citationpod.com/ To check out our sister show’s sister show, D and D minus, click here: https://danddminus.libsyn.com/ Report instances of harassment or abuse connected to this show to the Creator Accountability Network here: https://creatoraccountabilitynetwork.org/ --- Guest Links: Learn more about the work Nick Fish is doing with American Atheists here: https://www.atheists.org/about/our-vision/ Learn more about the fundraiser Noah is doing for the Creator Accountability Network here: Canlivestream.org --- Headlines: Despite desperate religious claims, the US is NOT in the midst of a youth revival: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2025/12/08/religion-holds-steady-in-america/ Lauren Witzke claims God sent Noah's flood because angels gave humanity pharmaceuticals: https://www.peoplefor.org/rightwingwatch/lauren-witzke-claims-god-sent-noahs-flood-because-angels-gave-humanity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Witzke Several major US retailers placed on 'Naughty List' for failure to embrace Christmas this year: https://www.christianpost.com/news/several-major-us-retailers-placed-on-naughty-list.html Kirk Cameron changes stance on doctrine of Hell: https://www.christianpost.com/news/kirk-cameron-changes-stance-on-doctrine-of-hell.html

Warning, by the time I finish this sentence, this podcast will already have started using words like fuck. This week's episode of The Skathing Atheist is brought to you by BetterHelp, AuraFrains, and by the new compromise for Christians worried about taking the Christ out of Christmas, to miss. To miss. Now we're only taking out Chris. And now, the scathing atheist.

Just hear me out, man. As a filthy monkey man, I can assure you we did, in fact, evolve from filthy monkey people. Merry Christmas. It's Thursday. It's December 18th. And it's answer the phone like Buddy the Elf Day. You sit on a throne of lies, Mom. Get ready. I'm no illusions.

I'm Eli Bosnick. I'm Keith Enright. And from Aaron Rogers, New Jersey, and Michigan and Waycross, Georgia. This is the scathing in East. On this week's episode, Christianity will put the PR and CPR. Kirk Cameron gets scatological and makes quite a mess. And President of American atheist Nick Fish will be here to talk about serious shit.

But first, the diatriatic. Here's the thing. I had an older brother. I know what it is to have my boundaries repeatedly tested to find my breaking point. I know all about the not quite touching approach to imposing your will on another person. I lived it for an entire childhood. So I recognize the strategy even when it's being applied to something as innocent seeming as Christmas. It's over on Gone Off of Movies.

We've reviewed a couple of different movies where they pretend that any atheist anywhere ever complained about the religiosity of the Christmas decorations on somebody's house. is one of their little persecution fantasies. They can't talk about the thing that we actually complain about, that is overtly religious symbolism on public property, because that inevitably leaves even the most motivated thinker to wonder how they'd feel if some other religion symbol were slapped all over the courthouse. So instead of dealing with that reality,

they indulge in a fantasy where atheists are complaining about the nativity scenes on somebody's lawn or something. And why not? they would complain if some houses in the neighborhoods had symbols of a different faith. That's not really a thing in most places because, you know, people who belong to a minority faith in this country aren't generally going out of their way to advertise it on their house. But if they did, you can bet your ass the local Christians would complain loudly about it. So why shouldn't we?

And of course, the real reason we don't is because we're so inundated by Christian dominance displays that we can't be bothered to give a fuck about every single one of them. I mean, objectively speaking, having a big, here's which God I pray to display in your yard is fucking weird. But they do that shit so often that we don't bat an eye at it, which kind of messes up the whole thing, right? If you think about it, I mean, dominance displays don't work if they don't display dominance. And yes, absolutely, you know, their ubiquity is a fantastic reminder that theirs is the nation's primary faith in case any of those minority faiths forget about it for one fucking second. But what about we atheists, mostly culled from the ranks of their former members, who are numb to those displays? How will we be reminded of our place if we're unbothered by their displays on their houses?

Well, obviously, they have to move those displays into other places. So they put them up in all their shops, which we still don't care about. So they insist that other shops that are showing insufficient reverence to their God step at the fuck up. And when that's not enough to elicit our rage, they turn to the courthouse lawn. you can see this shit with their aggressive holiday greetings for all this time they insisted that it was no it's just about wishing somebody a good time when you said merry Christmas to everybody in your life 46 times an hour for an entire fucking month most of which isn't Christmas that what kind of grinch-hearted Scrooge

would complain about wishing somebody a happy day right but then we hit upon a solution that allowed them to wish everybody a merry Christmas without shoving their fucking religion down our throats with the phrase happy holidays and they were rebelled against it like we'd slap them with a glove because it was never about actually hoping somebody had a happy holiday. It was about making everybody know which religion was winning. It's no different with any other aspect of their religion. They push as hard as they can get away with pushing. And if we non-believers, especially the ones that participate in their holiday, aren't uncomfortable, they haven't pushed hard enough. I was reminded of that on Monday

when we had to pause a record of citation needed because the local fire department likes to dress somebody up like Santa and roll them through my neighborhood blaring Christmas music so loud that it drowns out my voice in my home studio. Even if you hide inside your home, their holiday's going to find you and overwhelm you and shut you

the fuck up, even if it's just for a minute. And of course, if you ask them, you know, they're just being festive. Why, that's Santa, he's just there to excite the kids and the music, well, it has to be that loud so they can hear them coming two blocks away and have time to get their little boots on.

And look, not that we're just using municipal property to perpetuate a weird lie we tell to our children about a pervy slave-owning judgmental Arctic dude doesn't deserve its own examination. But even if you just accept that as innocent behavior, that's not the only thing that they're doing. They're also sending a clear message to everybody outside of the Christian fold that they are a guest in some other religion's house. And if you haven't noticed it yet, don't worry, you will. They're talking about your Jesus. Hey, interrupt this broadcast and bring you a special news bulletin. Joining me for headlines tonight are the Missal and the Toe Heath Enright and Eli Bosnick fellas. Are you dreaming of a white Christmas?

Yeah, we're going to be visiting Anne's family in England. It's going to be a translucent Christmas. And yes, it's true. I love a white Christmas. It's true. The matching sweaters are just so that they know they can see each other at all. It's actually important. It's a safety device.

Well, now that you've made dreaming of a white Christmas sound racist, we're going to pause for a word from this week's first sponsor, BetterHelp. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Hey, podcast listener. You know, here at The Skathing Atheist, we're aware that holidays can be a little stressful. No, Mom, we can't move dinner to 11 a.m. So you don't have to drive in the dark. Well, because that's lunch, Mom.

That's why. Even with all the joy the holidays bring, it can be helpful to have somebody to talk to who you're not related to. You think Facebook should have changed everyone's picture to Charlie Kirk to be properly respectful? Okay. That's why there's online therapy from BetterHelp. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences and their 12 plus years of experience in industry leading match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time, which you can't say for many things.

Okay, how was I supposed to know Aunt Kathy was divorced already? I didn't even know she was dating someone. Plus, if you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations. This December started a new tradition by taking care of you. Our listeners get 10% off at betterhelp.com

slash scathing. That's better H-E-L-P-com slash scathing. So you're saying you didn't vote for Kamala Harris because she never texted you back. Better help.

Because sometimes you need an outlet. You didn't even have her number. You were just guessing. And now, back to the headlines. In our lead story tonight, there's a demographic story that's being spun, and you've probably heard it, about a resurgence in Christianity in America being led by young American men swayed by the likes of Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, and the recently perforated Charlie Kirk. And like damn near everything you've ever been sold by religious people, it is complete and utter horseshit.

There is no American religious revival among young people or any other cohort of people. Well, what actually happened is that the decline in religiosity leveled off over the last five years. And when you've been falling down the stairs long enough, sitting still can feel like being lifted up. Yeah, that's what Jerry Falwell Jr. told that paramedic, I'm pretty sure. What's happening is Christianity is having that Wiley Coyote before he looks down moment. Yes. And they're pretty sure it means they can fly. It's pretty damn close.

Now, there are a number of threads that people are using to piece together this fairy tale. The main one, though, is the recent results from Pew's Religious Landscape Survey, which showed that the decline in Christianity has stalled, and that the very youngest sample of U.S. adults, that is, adults 18 to 23, were actually slightly more religious than the next oldest cohort. So, you know, here come the religious kids. More like Ezekiel 6-7, am I right, my Skibbitty, Ohio fan? It's a real ORAFarm, no cap.

Please stop it. Unless you're Jewish. Please stop. Then cap. Then cap. Okay. So, but what that number actually represents isn't an increase in religiosity. It's a decrease in adulthood, right? It's just like people are adults later.

It's more and more common for people to remain in their parents' houses for the first few years of their adulthood and just, you know, keep doing whatever religious shit their family does. But they still tend to shed their religious upbringing whenever they move out and go out into the world, right? The very same survey has shown exactly that tendency in the past. So the fact that 18 to 23-year-olds are more religious than 24 to 30-year-olds, that's not even new. Okay, so nothing. This is nothing at all. Yes. Although I am hearing lots of buzz about the wave of atheism for infants.

Ooh. God, it's going to be so dead eventually. Yeah. Very little praying daily at one and under, yeah. Now, another point they try to jostle into their favor is the decreasing. gap in religiosity between young men and young women? See, for as long as Pugh's been asking about it, women have tended to be more religious than men, but in the youngest cohort of adults, that difference has basically disappeared with this latest generation. And they're trying to say that that's because men are becoming more religious. But the reality is, as Christianity is more and more used to justify stripping women of their rights, women are becoming less Christian. Yeah. Plus, it turns out that when church is no longer literally the only place women are

allowed to gather without being accused of being witches, it loses some of its shine, you know? Yeah. And if you're actually a witch, that's cool too on our team. So like, whatever you want to do. Sure. No, it's also. And by the way, this isn't just my interpretation of the data. This is also Pew's conclusion. Because this narrative has so heavily relied on their data, they felt the need earlier this month to post a whole article knocking it back in which they say, quote, some media reports have suggested there may be a religious revival taking place among young adults, especially young men in the U.S. But our recent polls, along with other high-quality surveys, we have analyzed, shows no clear

evidence that this kind of nationwide religious resurgence is underway, end quote. Again, that's the conclusion of the source they're citing. Counterpoint, my cousin Dale started going to church every week after his wife caught him talking to 14-year-olds on Instagram. So, Ty. Ty. Anyway, I'm going to go listen to Mato Unopoulos, my religious leader. He said 13's cool. So look, here's the real truth of it.

When the atheist message broke through the gatekeepers and the rules of polite society, it converted the easiest to convert first. That was me. That was me, everybody. Right, yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. Followed by the second easiest to convert and then the third easiest to confer, etc. At this point, decades into that breakthrough, we're on the like fucking 611, the easiest to convert. And that takes longer. Kids these days, all I need was a YouTube video of Christopher Hitchens. Right.

You mean to rabbi. And I was like, fuck it. I'm on that side. Well, yeah, but the clear facts are that young people today are way less religious than young people at any other time in U.S. history and that people tend to get less religious as they get older now. And those facts still work heavily in our favor. And in Keep Your Witsky about. True news. Former Senate candidate and former co-anchor on true news, Lauren Witzky, appeared back on the internet this week to tell us all about why God drowned the whole world in a flood. And hey, podcast listener, however fucking crazy you think what she's about to say will be,

it's 10 million times crazy. Yeah, keep in mind that there are no sane answers to that question and she still managed a headline-worthy crazy watch. God tried to fix his own sink on a sitcom instead of getting a plumber. He didn't shut the water off? I don't know. Right. So first off, big thanks to Pete for being the first to send us this story at scathing news at gmail.com. Pete, for sending us atheist news to scathing news at gmail.com.

Next time, Noah brings up someone he's not going to name in a diatribe. Good or bad? We want you to know. He's talking about you, Pete. Scathing news at gmail.com. You shouldn't have misled me with your exit sign. Exactly, Pete, exactly. So, for those you are unfamiliar with Lauren,

let me give you a brief and delicious history. Like so many Christian warriors, Lauren was a meth head who got clean when she fell asleep in her car in the middle of an intersection in 2017 and was sentenced to a Pentecostal drug recovery program. God has to find a better recruitment strategy than this. You think, yeah?

Yeah. Falling asleep while you're doing meth is an interesting one that God's right there. Now, I want to be clear, I got nothing against people who have substance abuse problems, and I think it's incredibly admirable when people recover. But if that recovery turns you into Lauren Witsky, I think we can all agree it would just be better for you to stay on math, right?

I'd say the same for Mike Lindell, but it's just so much fun when he fails. It's so bad. It's good for the world. He's so sad. He cries sometimes. He's doing really badly. So from there, she turned into a Russian agent.

I mean, she joined the Russian Orthodox Church and then coincidentally ran for Senate in Delaware in 2020. She won the primary, but she lost the general. Yeah, just keep in mind through the rest of this story, this is a person the Republicans of Delaware would have had representing them in the Senate if they could. They're top choice. So then in 2021, while they were reporting on how fake COVID,

was, Rick Wiles of True News got COVID. So True News hired Lauren to replace him. She was a co-host for a little while, and then she told everyone that the staff of True News got COVID as revenge from Satan for hosting Milo Yanopoulos.

Huh, really? And they were like, yeah, you're actually too crazy for True News, so they fired her. Okay, and now, I'm guessing she's a ninja bodyguard for Candice Owens, fighting off spies from France and Mossad that are trying to kill Candice. That's the next dot on this graph that you're making, Eli. That's what happens next,

right? That is what happens next. But Eli, what does that have to do with the Sacklers being half giant angels? I'm so glad you asked. Sounds like I was actually pretty close. What does it have to do with the Sacklers being half giant angels? I'm so glad you asked. So this week, Lauren was commenting on Noah's Flood and just what drove God to kill all the humans when she offered the following quote. well you know it goes all the way back to the book of Enoch and the Nephilim and then the angels that came down and slept

with women and created these monstrous beings and they brought also pharmaceuticals into the world okay we need to at least acknowledge that the objectively least crazy thing in that sentence is the pharmaceuticals part right like the other shit's in the Bible so we get it or whatever but it's way nuttier

okay Eli but where do the witches come in is mine. I'm so glad you asked, Heathamron. I'm so glad you asked. She continues. Like, we didn't use to practice that kind of witchcraft, but they brought it. And the angels taught, these fallen angels taught, humans, the ways of war, how to forge weapons, how to perform abortions, pharmacia, which...

Sorry, is Lauren Witki six and telling us a story? What's happening? Yes, yes, yes. Oh, right. Which we are battling here today. pharmaceutical industries are now it's literally witchcraft drug addiction it's witchcraft

it's a form of witchcraft that was taught all the way back then end quote all right so I will say from my time in Wicca I can confirm that doing drugs is part of witchcraft it is oh all right big component yeah do you see the sacklers a lot at your pagan circles just

fat white guy drives over on his yacht hey you jerking off onto that crucifix or is that one mine she concludes quote we're getting to a point where we're transitioning children. We're doing abortions like it's birth control. It is, though. We are, and it is.

It controls that. And you know how bad things were pre-flood before, you know, God had to just wipe it all? End quote. So, yeah. Lauren is in psychosis. Like change subway cars level psychosis. But, you know, she's a Christian.

So instead, she's on YouTube podcast. Just in case anyone needed a reminder of where American politics. was being cooked up. That's a little preview for you. Yeah. And now that Eli just reminded you that you still need to buy something for your Aunt Kathy for Christmas,

it's time for a word from this week's other sponsor, ORAFraFraim's. How about this? Oh, no, me, baby. Worse, man, worse. Hey, guys. What's going on?

Eli's that family member who forgot to get everyone presents and now he's acting like a baby. Hmm. Because I am the baby, the baby who can't get anyone else presents. Every family has one.

and we hate that person. Look, Eli, you don't have to be the baby who forgets everybody's presence. You can get them an aura frame. What's an aura frame? ORA frames are digital picture frames that hold on limited photos and videos. Just download the ORA app

and connect to Wi-Fi. I don't know, Noah. I'm not super tech savvy. I like to not learn how something works and then I loudly announced to a whole room. Great! My phone is broken until somebody fixes it for me. The worst.

Well, that's okay, Eli. You can set up the aura frame while it's still in the box so all they have to do is plug it in. You can even customize the welcome message. That does sound easy. It is. Plus, every ORA frame comes packaged in a premium gift box with no price tag, so no need to wrap it or bag it. Good, because I can't do either of those things. Yes, you can. You just don't. Hey! And for a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting oraframes.com to get $35 off ORA's best-selling Carver Mapframes, named number one by wirecutter by using the promo code scathing at checkout.

That's A-U-R-A-Frames.com promo code scathing. This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast, so order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Thanks, Noah. So, you're going to get your family, Aura Frames? No, I spent all my money on me again.

I hate you so much. Don't! I'm a baby. You're 38. Next up in headlines. Statute of Liberty News. We have a story about the Christian right legal team over at Liberty Council

where they use litigation to remove liberties and force people into donating those liberty points to their Christian clients. And the points usually get used for bigot stuff. Not surprisingly. But Liberty Council is also

using soft power to whine about the Christ getting stolen from Christmas and they released their annual NARC report about U.S. retailers. It's called the naughty and nice list. And it gives a breakdown of which companies are selling things Christily enough

in December and which ones aren't. It's a great resource for devout Christians or for anyone who wants to use the list the other way. Yeah. You got a spoiler alert, though. None of them are as naughty as you were hoping. Yeah. And guys, I don't want to freak anyone out, but Squeezies dropped off the list this year. So here's hoping someone...

Yeah. Here's hoping someone at Jamba Juice is really doubling down on our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, you know? I'm sure they did. So this is the 23rd annual friend or faux Christmas campaign. Naughty Nice List from the Counselors of Liberty. A cool and normal way to think about companies being your religion. Yeah.

And it's all about demanding that it's not about axial tilt. It's about Jesus Christ, the son of God, who... morphed into a little blob of common oven teleported inside of a, well, a teenager at best, and eventually got born as a human, probably in March or September. Or in the words of Liberty Council, as we celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ this season, it is a reminder that the creator of the universe came to us first as an unborn child. We are lawyers who regularly argue in front of the Supreme Court. Jesus Christmas.

Also, even in your own fucking mythology, he didn't come first as an unborn child. He had a whole testament before that. Hell, he came into a child before that. Yeah, exactly. So here's how it works for the nice list. According to Liberty Council Chairman Matt Staver, who leaves off the last tea for tavings,

retailers need to clearly demonstrate that Christmas is about the birth of our Lord and Savior and not just a winner. Holiday. Companies that made the nice list include Best Buy, Hallmark, Hobby Lobby, J.C. Penny, Kirklands, Coles, Macy's, Sam's Club, Target, Walmart, and Bed, Bath, and Beyond. Really? That's right. They are fucking back. Bed Bath and Beyond is back after going bankrupt in 2023. And they will honor your stack of old discount cards that has a crease dusted with weed shake if you make a big enough

scene. Yes, they will. Awesome. Good to know. It bothers me incredibly that the rest of that list is in alphabetical order, though, and you put that one at the end. I moved it to the end so I could talk about it for something. You should have reversed. You should have done it. Okay, well, I'll keep that in mind next time. This is a good point.

Well, that brings us to the naughty list. Yeah, baby. Which includes proud Christ-killing stores like Academy Sports, America. American Eagle, Barnes and Noble, big lots, with an exclamation, Burlington Coat Factory, CVS, Eddie Bauer, Gap, Lord and Taylor, Nordstrom, T.J. Max, and Walgreens. Congrats to all of them. Liberty Council wrote out their specific grievances about each one,

and those grievances are mostly just complaining that the word Christmas doesn't appear on their websites enough. But a few of the entries were a bit more interesting. For example, here's what they said about American Eagle. Quote, the Grinch keeps its hold on Christmas at American Eagle Outfitters. For the second year in a row, the clothing chain lands on the naughty list by offering only Grinch-related items in its Grinch shop. It appears something at American Eagle Outfitters is two sizes too small. Oh, shit. Because like in the Grinch.

give the company a call or email them to encourage them to rescue Christmas, end quote. We're having a little word fun here at the legal arm of the modern Nazi party. He reversed Roverses. We're so proud of those. Anyway, why don't you go harass some 19-year-old cashier making 12 bucks an hour who can't change anything on the phone about it? Also, I just got to say this. The Grinch is a fucking Christmas book. It is.

It's about Christmas. sure is. It's not the Grinch. It's directly about Christmas. Enjoying a Seder. It's not Jesus, though. Yeah. Anything other than it's the Grinch who stole Christmas and then it's good heard. It's fine. It's not fine. It's so stupid. Okay. So here's the complaint about Barnes & Noble. Liberty Council admits that Barnes & Noble does put up some Christmas decorations and they do have the word Christmas. But the placement of Christmas was offensive to them at Barnes & Noble. Noble.com, this is real.

At Barnes & Noble.com, the Christmas section appears at the bottom of one of the pages. And first of all, it gets worse. It's below the section for Hanukkah gifts. Seriously? That's the entire

complaint from Liberty Council. Christmas is below Hanukkah on the website. And it's fucking touching Kwanza. Gross. Right? We're doing it in testament order, guys. I just made the Christian Gerroth. Given their history vis-a-vis our Lord and Savior,

can we really trust the Jews to be on top of him like that? I don't think. Right. We can't. All right. And last but not least, we have my favorite entry on the naughty list. That would be big lots. They got on the naughty list because somebody at Liberty Council had so much goddamn trouble

getting past the captcha at biglots.com. What? This person wrote a whole paragraph. It's just yelling about the seemingly endless visual tests, exact words, and the crazy amount of sidewalks, bicycles, and motorcycles. Seriously, it ends by saying, again, exact words. It appears surviving bankruptcy and fighting the robot war made Christmas a low priority. Okay, so this is all that we're amazing because

having to do those over and over means that you're failing at them. If you nail the first one, they don't make you do another one, Matt. Well, it's tricky because that, I mean, it contains a sidewalk, but what does it mean? The streamer on the side is in this one.

Fuck. Okay, here's the weird thing, though. That absolutely psychotic conclusion on their list is actually the least harmful part of it. If the entire list next year is about how hard it is to open Tagliatelli gelato containers, it will be a market improvement. But why is it

so fucking hard though? Do they not want me in there? They don't. They don't want you in there. And then when it finally opens, there's not a thing. There's not like a thing that it's like, oh, I lose it. It just fucking opens like you were an asshole the whole fucking time. Have you seen the interview with the CEO where he says

they're not hard to open? And the reporter's like, they are. It fucking rules. I can burn this place down right now. I'm not Fox News. I'm out there with a fucking crowbar. I have lines. Okay.

Just one quick clarification before we wrap it up. When I said Liberty Council is using soft power earlier, they, I don't know, they apparently heard me. They wanted to correct that. They definitely do lawsuits about this to the thing I said was soft power. According to their site, the annual campaign is designed to, quote, educate and, when necessary, litigate to, ensure religious viewpoints are not censored from Christmas and holiday themes, end quote.

Litigating liberty. Also, strangely enough, they hate it when people use the word holidays during this time of year. They did that. They should probably sue themselves about that. By the way, it's 407-875-1776 if you have any serious concerns about that. If you work at American Eagle, let them know. Tell them to sue themselves. or something else themselves.

Yeah, there you go. And finally tonight, in cold comfort news, Christian movie star, children's book author that nobody cares about, and Ray Comfort's best friend does not find the evidence for hell in the Old Testament compelling and you know what that means?

What are the guys talking about? It's the newest, the greatest Christian freak out. That's right. Christians are freaking out over Kurt Cameron's sudden and unsuspected conversion to reading the first of two books that you think are the perfect word of the god of the universe. So, yeah, we're going to talk about it. Yeah, to be clear, he's not backing away because of the clear, demonstrable, psychological harm that convincing children there's an eternal torture dimension does.

He's okay with that. It's because the Iron Age mystics that he trusts over modern sciences were unclear about it. Translation is tricky. Yeah. Yeah. So if you're unfamiliar with this particular nerd fight, the idea is that good Christians go to heaven and everyone else just regular dies, right? And that's often referred to as annihilationism. And it's a niche little corner of Christianity. So let me explain. Kurt Cameron is right that Jews, certainly during the time of writing the Old Testament, believe that when you died, you were just dead. Now, whether or not they believed that would change when the Messiah came along as a subject of much debate and a couple of holy wars, but most of the post hoc meaning to added terms like heaven or the heavens in the Old Testament were New Testament scholars applying their beliefs to the older books. Oh my God, so boring.

Yeah, exactly. Like how in retrospect, maybe the best name for the only Asian character in Harry Potter shouldn't have been Cho Chang, you know? I'm starting to think she was a bigot, guys. Yeah, I think, and, you know, luckily she's never said anything bad since then, but we should take her to task. now for most Christians this isn't a problem right because Jesus showed up and he made new rules and those new rules include heaven and hell but because a tremendous amount of justification of those beliefs comes from those post hoc rationalizations by New Testament scholars some Christians Kirk Cameron now included believe that when Jesus says everyone follows him gets into heaven he does not necessarily mean that everyone who doesn't goes to hell. Okay, this is just Kirk wanting to make himself sound slightly less crazy and sadistic

when he argues with like, you know, atheist nerds at the public library where he does his stupid events for his book. Where he's having an uninvited reading of his book. Yeah, exactly. Christianity flash mob technically is what he's doing. Exactly. That's his job. So this is how Kirk put it on his podcast, quote, Jesus died so that we could have eternal life. But do the wicked have eternal life in hell? And if they do, Why does the Old Testament describe the fate of the wicked in opposite terms? The soul that sins, it shall die, it will perish, it will be destroyed, which is like the ending of life, not the ongoing life forever in punishment, end quote. Not adding, quote, kind of makes you wonder why God wasn't super clear about all of this stuff

in his books. This is the most important, knowable thing. Maybe you should add like a free DLC or something like that to it. Yeah, the God of the universe is kind of getting ratioed on. his own tweet about this. Yeah, exactly. A lot of stitches, not so many hearts. Now, I know what you're thinking.

Eli, I don't fucking care. None of that's real. And hey, look, that's true. That is true because it's not real. But do you know who does care? Kirk Cameron's best friend in the world and man who I can testify tastes ever so gently of ocean spray.

Ray Comfort, who, of course, the Christian Post asked about Kirk's new take. Wait, wait, wait. Not ocean spray like one of the fruits, just like the spray of the ocean, right? The spray of the ocean. Yeah, a little salty. A little salty, little sea, little seawater, a little briny. Mm-hmm. All delicious. A little bit radioactive. Obviously.

Anyways, after clarifying that Kirk is no longer affiliated with his ministry, Ray said, quote, Kirk Cameron has been a dear friend of mine for decades. I've known him to be a godly man who loves the Lord, his family and the church. In a world of phonies and make-believe, especially in Hollywood, I think Kirk is the real deal. I'm sorry. In a world of phonies, Kirk is the real deal. That is unintentionally the most honest thing Ray has ever said

outside of a food order. Wow. But it does get spicy. Here comes the drama. Are you guys ready for the fucking drama? I feel like he lies during food orders too. Yeah, for sure. You don't want a banana.

I don't think you do. Quote, while we believe Kirk is sincere, we believe that conditional mortality and annihilationalism are erroneous views, and that the Bible's clear teaching on hell is known as eternal conscious torment. We firmly believe this is the only correct biblical view, end quote. So, yeah, did Ray throw one half of a friendship bracelet into the ocean, tears streaming down his ever so delicious face. Absolutely he did. Might his broken heart filled with sadness turn one day to hate? Only time we'll tell, podcast listener.

Only time we'll tell. All right. So with the dreams of a sunrise sword fight on a cliffside in mind, but it turns out it's with those replica swords that you get at comic bookshops and they don't realize that until they swing him and the blaze just fly out behind them or whatever, so they just have to wrestle to death. We'll close the headlines for the night. Heath, Eli, thanks as always.

When we come back... That's the sound of the deathlight. Yep, yep, yep. And when we come back, we'll catch a fish. Why, we both areicked? As our nation descends further and further into theocratic autocracy, there are a number of ticking clocks

that secular watchdogs are keeping a real close eye on. And perhaps none so much the countdown to when it becomes dangerous to be a secular watchdog? Well, I feel like we took a big step in that direction over the last couple of weeks, and to learn more about it, I'm excited to welcome in the president of American atheists, Nick Fish. Nick is a seasoned civil rights activist who spent his life trying to make a positive difference in the world, whether that was through voter registration drives,

fundraising for nonprofits, developing visibility campaigns, or innovating in the secular nonprofit space. He's been serving as the president of American atheists since 2018, and so, serving pretty damn well if you ask me. Nick, welcome to the show. Thanks so much. Good to be here. All right. So now at the beginning of this, I frame this in the language of self-interest, but in reality, I asked you on today to talk about a completely different non-profit, specifically the Council on American Islamic Relations or CARE, which was recently attacked by a couple of Republican governors. So before we get into the attack itself, can you tell us a little bit about

care? Yeah, care is a civil rights organization, like American Atheists, the Civil Rights Organization, looking out for the interests and the rights of a particular community, a community that often faces a lot of stigma and outright discrimination and government censorship here in the U.S. in much the same way that a group like American Atheist does. Care has long worked on fighting the discrimination that those folks face, lobbying on behalf of the people that they represent, and doing a pretty good job often of combating bad media

or stuff that's in popular culture that was really seen as an attack on on Muslims, you know, and to be clear, we don't agree on everything, obviously, right? I think they get things wrong occasionally. I think we back a few years ago, there was this House committee that was really up in arms that the State Department, the Biden State Department, had done a program that was inclusive of atheists. And they said, oh, you know, they were giving government money to recruit people to atheism. That wasn't what was happening.

And Kerr kind of put out a statement that said, yeah, this is outrageous that the American government is spending money trying to convert Muslims away from Islam. Well, that's not what's happening, guys. And we wish you would have talked to us because we're part of many of the same coalitions, many of the same civil rights coalitions. We wish you would have chatted with us and you have the conversation then behind the scenes

and try to promote understanding so folks understand what's actually happening here. And so, you know, to be clear, we don't always agree with people even when we're on the same side of civil rights fights and the right of people to believe and practice their religion, the right of people to have due process,

to not face discrimination in the workplace, to not have the government single out their entire community for sweeping intrusions on their civil rights and wiretaps and whatever. I think that's something we can all agree on and that's a big part of what care has long done for Muslims in the United States. All right. So safe to say, based on that explanation,

they wouldn't qualify as a foreign terrorist organization? Yeah, I think as a threshold matter, the key thing there would be foreign. They are, in fact, an American organization staffed by American attorneys and American staff. So, you know, just starting from that, you know, very baseline question of what is a foreign terrorist organization? No.

And there's a legal definition to a foreign terrorist organization that's codified in the United States federal law. And spoiler alert, nothing in federal law says the governor of Texas and Florida have the authority to designate foreign terrorist organizations. And so, you know, just, again, as a threshold matter, what the hell are we even talking about here? this is nutty, you know. So no, just flat out no. But despite all of that, that's exactly what

we've got. Now, there's been a bit of a push, I think, on the federal level as well to get them designated as a foreign terrorist organization. Absent that, there's just, the governors have decided to move on their own. So can you tell us a little bit more about that? Yeah, so there's a couple of executive orders that I think are key to understanding here. So this started basically with a law that was passed in Texas, giving the governor the authority, reporting to give the governor the authority to designate certain groups as foreign terrorist organizations or transnational criminal organizations. And he did.

And I think it's largely best understood as a publicity stunt. This is part and parcel to what we have largely seen from white Christian nationalist politicians of designating anybody or singling out groups, especially Muslims, especially and, you know, also atheists. And, you know, anybody who they can perceive as the other. And, you know, that also includes trans people and just basically any group that challenges their power, challenges their idea of dominance. And I think

Muslims in particular are a favorite target for these folks in part because of the fact that, you know, the theology that's there and but it's also wrapped up in the ethnicity part of this and their ability to kind of check a lot of boxes in threatening

the white Christian nationalist narrative with atheists, you know, at least, you know, they can kind of go, well, at least they're white people, right? Right, yeah. And they're from here, right? They're from round here, yeah. Right, exactly. And this fear and this, this like hostility to, quote, unquote, the other. And so both in Texas, Governor Abbott and in Florida, Governor DeSantis, made a designation and purported to make a designation, unilaterally designating care as a terrorist organization,

as a foreign terrorist organization. And that's key because there's no such thing, by the way, as a domestic terrorist organization. That's just not a thing, which is why they have to go through these weird contortionist style backflips and tortured readings of things to even get to the point of saying, well, because some guy 30 years ago was a naturalized citizen and they invited somebody to speak at a conference, that means they're a foreign terrorist organization. It's like, well, no, that's not what these words mean. And so the governors made these designations and now Care has filed lawsuits both in Texas and in Florida challenging these designations and gone after that in federal court because of federal

preemption, arguing that federal law precludes this, attacking this from a constitutional perspective because I think it's obvious to anyone who looks here that this is entirely based on attacks on their speech, that these are people who are engaging in disfavored speech. And in fact, the governor of Texas flat out says in one of his reasons for designating care as an FTO, says, well, the executive director said something about the attacks the Hamas attacks in 2023, said something that we disagree with. It's like, well, you know,

people can say things that you disagree with that doesn't give you the power to unilaterally declare them as terrorist organizations. And again, people are allowed to say things that are wrong. And I'm not going to, I don't even know exactly what he said, but I'm just sort of referring to the executive order from Governor Abbott, it straight up says. Here's a thing, he said something that was bad.

Right. That doesn't make you a terrorist. Yeah, so, okay. Now, help me out here because it's not like, I don't think Texas has its own army can send out, you know, drone strikes against terror. So if they, if they, yeah, right, no kidding. But if they, like, they got away with this, right? If they were to succeed at a federal level in court, what would it mean in practical terms

to be a terrorist organization, but just in Texas? Yeah. So this is where it gets kind of scary and why I think the nonprofit community is rallying around anyone who is coming under threat. this because we all exist in states, right? We all exist both at the federal level, often as, you know, 501C3 organizations with help you get a tax deduction. But first and foremost, we are state entities. We live in, we work in, we exist in states. And so what this designation does, and this is what the Texas law that was passed by the Texas legislature does, is it allows the governor

and all of the agencies to take action against anybody that the governor, in nice interest to say, reports to allow the governor to do this, bans them from doing things like having a building, acquiring real property, interacting with state agencies, authorizing the state police, and just this whole range of law enforcement entities to start investigating and launching criminal investigations into care. And one of the things that was an innovation, and that's not a good thing, that came out of Texas through a lot of the attacks on trans people and the attacks on abortion rights, was the sort of deputizing of random people to engage in harassing lawsuits, to file quasi-primal, quasi-official actions, either threatening the organizations and making it so

that they couldn't recover attorney's fees or that shifting burdens onto the organization that have to have to defend itself. Just making it easier to engage in the sort of lawfare that makes it impossible for any group to do its work as a civil rights group, makes it impossible for you to even talk about abortion rights or talk about how you can get gender-affirming care, they're following the exact same playbook, but they're doing it for an identifiable religious minority rather than like an identifiable gender minority or an identifiable group of people who might need reproductive care. They're following the exact same playbook and almost deputizing extremists and weirdos with way too much time on their hands to harass these groups,

these disfavored minority groups, in a way that, you know, the state doesn't even have the capacity to do. So that's what we're talking about here. That's what this designation purports to allow both state actors and non-state actors to do and why it's so important for us to be talking about these threats. Okay. So now you've mentioned already that CARA is challenging this in court. Is there anything that American atheists specifically can do to help? Or is there anything that we, the listeners, can do to help? Yeah. So American atheists and our other civil rights allies have made it very clear to care and to each other. And I think this is where a lot of of us need to be really outspoken about this sort of thing and stand in visible solidarity with

groups that are coming under attack by the Trump administration, by Governor DeSantis, by Governor Abbott, making it clear that an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us. And there's been this massive pledge of solidarity that's gone around for all of the groups that are engaged in this type of civil rights work, whether it's trying to classify, again, like care as a foreign terrorist organization, or trying to say that groups engaged, in advocacy for black Americans are actually engaged, are the real racists here, you know? So groups like the NAACP are facing threats by the Trump administration saying that their actions advocating for black Americans are actually, or are racist or it's employment

discrimination, or whether it's LGBT groups, helping people get connected to gender affirming care and saying that, you know, this is child abuse or this, you know, and they define child as anyone under 25 or whatever the case may be. And we're going to criminally investigate them. And we're going to demand lists of their donors. We're going to, again, engage in lawfare because that's what this is all about, making the whole process a punishment, whether or not the ultimate outcome is, oh, yes, you did do something wrong or not, you still have to spend tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars on attorneys to respond to this stuff because, you know, you're basically

playing whack-a-mole with an entity that has essentially unlimited resources or compared to you unlimited resources and it gobbles up all of your ability to do anything other than respond to this stuff. And I think any of us who have been engaged in litigation on any side, whether it's you're suing someone or you're being sued, recognize just the profound stress that comes with litigation, whether or whether or not it's righteous or the enormous cost if you ever been sued, even if it was utter BS, you still end up spending tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars just on your own, never mind if it's the government that's going after you, right? Like, this is hard, that's the intention. That's what they're trying to do here is make it really impossible for

these groups to do their mission and instead spend all of their time responding to lawsuits or encouraging or forcing compliance in advance, saying, oh, we're not, okay, fine, we're not going to do this anymore because we don't want to risk attracting the ire of the Trump administration or of DeSantis or of Abbott. Sure. Sure. So right now you feel like solidarity is our, is our, our best weapon. Yeah. And so for us, in terms of like practical next steps, we've spoken with a number of our civil rights allies about, you know, whether we're going to engage in amicus briefs. Like, we don't want to step on or get in the way of the actual sort of affirmative steps that care is taking, but we want to make it clear to care and to other organizations that like, listen,

we got your back, we've got lawyers, you've got lawyers, all these people have lawyers. You know, we can, we can share this, this burden a bit, make it a lot easier for any of us who come under attack to know that there's the solidarity network behind them where, you know, if you get that subpoena that's demanding, you know, all of your emails or whatever the case may be, developing resources in advance so we know, hey, we've got it ready to go. You don't have to go out and spend a bunch of money to try to quash the subpoena. And then having that solidarity filter down and provide people with kind of best practices, like here's what we've learned from going through these steps. And that's something that American Atheists has done with our affiliates

and we're continuing to do, is advise them on best practices if they're going to still engage in civil rights advocacy, if they're going, if they have records that they're preserving, if they have emails, if they are a formal 501c3, here's how you protect yourself. And so that's an action that folks can take for the individual, for a person listening, what I would say is, you know, speak out against this sort of thing. These weirdo Christian nationalist groups, I think there's a lot to be said about how, absolutely terrified they are of popular pushback. Whenever you see large groups of people standing in solidarity with the small minorities

that are coming under attack, it sends a very clear message that we're not going to put up with this shit, that we're not going to throw, you know, half a percent of people under the bus just because it's half a percent, that we're not going to abandon people just because they're a smaller group, that we do recognize that, you know, this list doesn't start and end with Muslims, that next on it are atheists, next on it. are Jews next on it are anybody who doesn't sign up for this extremely regressive view of white Christian identity politics that they engage in. And we're not going to stand for it. And we're going to, you know, we have a self-interest in it. But more importantly,

we have shared values that even if these are people we disagree with or who don't look like us, who don't worship like us, this is America. And we're not going to, we're not going to stand for it. Okay. So, and I think pretty much everybody in the atheist world seems to agree, well, I shouldn't say everybody. But the vast majority seem to agree that in most instances we stand with the persecuted minority. But I think with when it comes to Muslim specifically, there are some prominent atheists that argue that, you know, Islam is uniquely dangerous and that its belief in jihad merits a level of scrutiny that we don't apply to other faith groups and we needn't apply to other faith groups. So I have a two-part question for

you here. First of all, how do you respond to those assertions? But also, do you think it's realistic to think that that designation would protect us from becoming the next, you know, foreign terrorist organization. Yeah, let me answer your second question first. The answer is no. They view us as terrorists. They genuinely believe that any attack on the supremacy of white Christian identity in America is a fundamental threat to their vision, their imagined view.

This imagined history they have of America as a Christian nation, the sociologists, Andrew Whitehead, and Samuel Perry and Philip Gorski wrote about the Holy Trinity of white Christian nationalism. The Holy Trinity being freedom, order, and violence. Freedom is the freedom that they, the white Christians in America have, to just go about their lives, to have special treatment because they are white Christians. And in their view, this is a white Christian nation. And both of those elements are key to this. Order is what's to be imposed on everyone else, an order that is aimed at keeping people in check, making sure that no one is able to challenge the freedom and the privilege that they have. And then the last part of that Holy Trinity of white Christian national

is violence, a sort of righteous violence aimed at those who would challenge and resist the order that's being imposed on us. So we have to be really clear-eyed about what the real threat is to America right now and look at who has the power to implement radical interpretations of religion into our government's politics. You know, who is hanging up Ten Commandment posters in public school classrooms? Who is redirecting billions of dollars in taxpayer money to private religious schools, who is banning abortion, who is making it impossible for LGBTQ people to get the care and respect that they deserve. It ain't Muslims in America right now. And in the United States, Muslims represent, what is it, less than half a percent of Americans. And I think

there's a distinction we have to draw between political power and, you know, like we hear stories all the time about people who are ex-Muslims in America and the harmful experiences they have leaving Islam, yes, even in America, and the discrimination and the stigma and the othering that they experience, and those are stories that have to be elevated and we have to do something about. But those stories are exactly the same stories that we often get from any high control religious group, whether it's Christians, whether it's Jews, whether it's Muslims, heck, whether it's people who are secular-ish, but are extremely conservative, right? People experience those leaving any high-control community, and we have to provide resources for those folks. But we also have to be

clear-eyed about what the heck actually is the threat to America, who is in the process of taking over and capturing our institutions, who has the ability right now to flex their power, to use the federal judiciary and civic institutions to exact their will. In the United States, sadly, right now, it's white Christian nationalism and white Christian nationalists. And to be clear, I don't want any religious group to have that level of dominance or any level of dominance in our society. That's why secularism is the answer to protecting a liberal democracy.

It's why we don't say that we want our government to be pushing atheism. qua atheism. I don't want a public school teacher to stay, these people are dummies for believing in God. Can you believe that? That's absurd. And here's some books by Richard Dawkins. I don't want that. I don't think any of us want that. That's ridiculous. What we want is where people can make their own decisions. We want people to have the freedom to believe and live out their faith to the extent that they're not discriminating. They're not harming anyone else, right? That's the key. That's what a liberal pluralistic democracy is all about. That's what American atheists care about. And that's what rank and file atheists care about. Survey after survey indicate that atheists stand in solidarity with Muslims,

stand in solidarity with anyone who is experiencing discrimination at the hands of this regime. There's some really good data out there about people going to protests, that it was, in fact, atheists who are far more likely to engage in protesting violence that Muslims were facing, standing up and calling out attacks on Muslims, attacks on Jews, attacks on any religious community, because we stand in solidarity with those folks, because we recognize that, you know, next on the list. We recognize that this stuff is a threat to our most closely held values as atheists, that the protection, the guarantee, or the promise of a secular government protects all of us, and we don't want government picking and choosing winners on this stuff. We want a government

that protects everyone where no one is coerced into believing or not believing. It's why we're harshly critical of attacks on freedom of expression that happened in China, you know, when it's coming from a sort of atheist regime because that's not freedom of expression. We care very deeply about protecting those values because it's who we are because it's the best way to protect human thriving. It's the best way to live a good life. And yeah, people have the ability to make choices that we disagree with to believe things that we think are a little bit silly as long as they're not hurting anybody and we can

have a beer and debate this stuff later and over drinks later. Right now we've got people getting rounded up and we've got to do some about it. Absolutely, man. Well, I'll tell you what, I had a note here to the, give you a chance to give our listeners the hard sell who aren't already members of American atheists. I feel like that response, though, you're really already doing that. Well, I don't want to, I don't want people to just view that as the hard sell. I will certainly do the hard sell as well. That is, if people want to go to atheist.org, they should certainly do

that. We have a really tremendous community all across the country made up of amazing groups, whether it's groups that are based locally that are doing the hard work, advocating for better laws in your state going out there and testifying and doing the really difficult work of speaking to state legislators or showing up to protests or giving out food grants. American Atheists has provided thousands and thousands of dollars to our network of affiliates to help them engage in direct aid, sort of mutual aid for people in their communities that are struggling because what we're seeing right now is Elon Musk and the Trump administration are cutting that sort of thing to the core, making it impossible for people to put food on their

tables at a time when, you know, a lot of people are struggling. It's impossible for us to fully fill that gap, but we're going to do the best we can to make sure that our groups, our community groups that are wanting to do that, have the resources to get out there, to provide food, to provide direct aid to people experiencing homelessness, but also to, as I said, actually put our money where our mouth is on this where we have one life to live thing and making the world a better place, that's on us. And so that's what we're all about. There's a lot more at atheist.org. We hope people get involved and find a community. near you, but just as importantly, join American atheists and be a part of this.

You know, we've got a lot of work to do. And I think certainly your listeners know that better than most. Well, for lack of a better term, amen. Be sure to check out the show notes. Of course, we'll have a link to more information there. Nick, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for all the work that you're doing. And thanks for the light that you're shining on this issue.

Yeah, thanks for being here. And thanks for all you guys do, too. tonight. I want to let everybody know that I'm participating in a fundraiser for the Creator Accountability Network, and it is unlike any fundraiser I've ever done before in that it is a play. Find out more in the show notes. Anyway, that's all the blast movie we've got for you tonight, but we'll be back in 10,000, 22 minutes with more. If you can't wait that long, be on look up for a brand new episode of our D&D actual play podcast, D&D Minus, day being at 7 Eastern tomorrow. Then there will be a week that we'll take off for Christmas,

so no God off on movies or scathing next week. But there will be a citation needed episode out on Wednesday and then we'll be back to our normal release schedule the following week. Obviously, it wouldn't be a very Merry Christmas if I neglected to thank Ethan Wright for keeping us all wrapped all year. I want to thank Lucindilusions for being such a gift. I want to thank Eli Bosnick for being a full-bodied, bearded, jolly man from a place much colder than where I live and knows if I've been naughty or nice. Very seasonal of him to do all of that. I also want to thank Nick Fish one more time for talking with me tonight. Again, check the show notes for links to more information about American atheists. I also want to thank Doug for providing this

week's Farnsworth quote, Merry Christmas indeed. Here's hoping 2026 treats you better than 2025, bro. Most of all, though, I want to thank this week's best bypass Josh, Jason, Bill, Sarah, and Matt who are so naughty, it's nice. Together, these five fabulous Freethinkers forewint fortune to further our for forays and to fuck-filled fulminations for faith this week by giving us money. Not everybody has the money it takes to do that, especially right now, but if you do, you can make a per episode donation to patreon.com slash scathing athias, whereby your own early access to an extended every version of every episode, or you can make a one-time donation by clicking on the donate button on the right side of the homepage at scathingaet.com.

And if you'd like to help, but your money is sitting under a tree right now in form of gifts that people are not going to appreciate enough, you can also help a time by leaving a five-star review, telling a friend about the show and following us on social media. And speaking of social media, Tim Robertson handles that for us and our audio engineer is Morgan Clark, who also wrote all the music that was used in this episode, which was used with permission. If you have questions, comments or death threats, you'll find all the content info on the content page at Skating Atheist.com. I listened to the full

Kirk Cameron podcast episode, by the way. You guys should because he keeps running up against atheism and being like, but it's not that. Yeah. It's not. This content is canned credentialed, which means you can report instances

of harassment, abuse, or other harm at their hotline at 617-249-4-2-2-2. or on their website at Creator Accountability Network.org. The preceding podcast was a production of Puzzle and a Thunderstorm LLC. Copyright 2025, All Rights Reserved.