The Scathing Atheist - 681: Let Me Finnish Edition

Episode Date: April 2, 2026

In this week’s episode, The Washington Post puts the edit in editorialize, Republicans at CPAC plan to destroy the left with their girthy rizz, and Michael Marshall will be here to give you new people to hate.---To make a per episode donation at Patreon.com, click here: http://www.patreon.com/ScathingAtheistTo buy our book, click here: https://www.amazon.com/Outbreak-Crisis-Religion-Ruined-Pandemic/dp/B08L2HSVS8/If you see a news story you think we might be interested in, you can send it here: [e-mail] check out our sister show, The Skepticrat, click here: https://audioboom.com/channel/the-skepticratTo check out our sister show’s hot friend, God Awful Movies, click here: https://audioboom.com/channel/god-awful-moviesTo check out our half-sister show, Citation Needed, click here: http://citationpod.com/To check out our sister show’s sister show, D and D minus, click here: https://danddminus.libsyn.com/Report instances of harassment or abuse connected to this show to the Creator Accountability Network here: https://creatoraccountabilitynetwork.org/---Guest Links:Check out more from Marsh on Skeptics with a K and the Know Rogan Experience---Headlines:Finnish Religious Freedom Case isn’t what Bezos seems to think: https://yle.fi/a/74-20217856 and https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2026/03/27/finland-free-speech-religion-paivi-rasanen/Church attendance report pulled after YouGov finds 'fraudulent' responses: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cpwjxx5eyn1oJD Vance warns that extraterrestrials are demons: 'I'm going to get to the bottom of this'https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/jd-vance-warns-extraterrestrials-demons-030714971.htmlPope Leo hosts exorcist summit at the Vatican over fears of worldwide surge in Satanism: https://nypost.com/2026/03/24/world-news/pope-leo-hosts-exorcist-summit-at-the-vatican-over-fears-of-worldwide-surge-in-satanism/Minnesota Priests claim charging them with sexual assault is a violation of religious freedom: https://www.friendlyatheist.com/p/catholic-priests-say-charging-themBenny Johnson: MAGA Will “Outbreed Hideous Left”https://www.joemygod.com/2026/03/benny-johnson-maga-will-outbreed-hideous-left/

Warning, this podcast contains all the offensive language we could think up on the spot. This week's episode of The Skathing Atheist is brought to you by the new petroleum delivery company, D.H. Oil. D.H. Oil. Because you know he's asked why they can't just mail the oil by this point. And now, the scathing atheist. Chuck Norris can throw a turd so hard that filthy monkey man evolved from him. It's Thursday. It's April 2nd. And it's Reconciliation Day. Another prank.

Go wrong. It's like the Hague has no sense of humor, man. It's just... Yeah, I'm no illusions. Amilabasnik. Ami, Thenwright. And from Clavicular's, New Jersey, Ann Arbor, Michigan, and Waycross, Georgia.

This is the skating atheist. On this week's episode, The Washington Post puts the edit in editorialize. Republicans at CPAC plan to destroy the left with their girthy wriths. And Michael Marshall will be here to give you new people to hate. But first, the diatriress. We talk so much about what a fucked up Supreme Court Trump is wrought that sometimes we forget how bad it was even before he got his hands on it. I mean, this effort to redefine religious freedom and undermine the secular nature of our government sure the fuck didn't start with Trump.

The Trinity Lutheran decision, right, the one that said taxpayers had to pay to pretty up church property. That happened in 2017. He had one nominee on the court at that point and that decision was seven to two. And look, there have been a lot of bad decisions that favor Christianity and way more egregious ways since then, so it's easy to forget just how bad this one was. But in Trinity Lutheran, the court jettisoned the previous understanding of church-state separation in a way that was not only unprecedented, but exactly backwards. The court found that contrary to 227 years of jurisprudence and what all the words mean, failing to require taxpayers to fund a church, was a violation.

of church state separation. That's what they found. And Elena Kagan was entirely cool with that. And that's why I was not at all surprised when I learned that they were egregious decision to strike down Colorado's ban on conversion therapy for minors was nearly unanimous. Elena Kagan and Sonia Sotomayor signed onto a decision

that protected this ever-expanding notion of religious freedom over the lives of LGBTQ plus children. And we all should have seen it coming. Now, strictly speaking, this was the case decided on free speech grounds rather than those of religious freedom, but that's fucking irrelevant. The only reason that they were hearing this case to begin with is because religious assholes want to protect their right to psychologically torture gay kids into suicide. So whatever legal fiction they concocted to get there, it doesn't fucking matter. It's a religious freedom case. I want to be clear here, right?

Conversion therapy, which is sometimes given the even more insulting name of reparative therapy, has no basis in science whatsoever. It has no basis in psychology. There is no credible evidence that any form of it works. There's no credible evidence that any form of it could work theoretically. And while we're on the subject, there's no credible evidence that any form of it should work. There's nothing wrong with being L or G or B or whatever. What there is credible evidence of is that conversion therapy leads to affirmative harm for both the patient and their family. And this isn't just my opinion.

this isn't just a liberal reading of the data. The American Academy of Child, adolescent psychiatry says conversion therapy, quote, lacks scientific credibility and clinical utility. Additionally, there is evidence that such intervention is harmful, end quote. The American Academy of Pediatrics echoes those sentiments, as does the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, the American College of Physicians, the American Counseling Association, the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association,

the American Psychoanalytical Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the American School Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the Pan American Health Organization, the World Health Organization, and the World Psychological Association.

They all agree. Not only do they all oppose and reject conversion therapy, but they all endorse passing laws against doing it to kids. It harms children. It reinforces dangerous stereotypes. stereotypes throughout society, and it perpetuates the bigoted misconceptions that are so often at the heart of families rejecting their LGBTQ plus members. And I'm sure most of you already know this, but it bears repeating.

LGBTQ kids whose families don't accept them are eight times more likely to attempt suicide. That is the harm that those laws are meant to prohibit. And that is the harm the Supreme Court is protecting. On the other side of this, on the fucking alliance defending freedoms side, you have a specious claim about free speech that falls apart the absolute nanosecond you apply it to something that Christians don't care about. The idea here is that because some forms of conversion therapy are just talk therapy and talk therapy is speaking, those forms should be protected under free speech laws. Think about what a fucking ridiculous proposition that is. it would mean that no amount of demonstrably harmful therapy could be outlawed as long as it was just talking. A therapist could convince a patient to staple their lips together or gouge out their fucking eyes and that would be protected speech.

Because, of course, it's talking. What's more, therapist is actually one of the more heavily regulated professions from a legal perspective. So, you know, something like an accountant telling you that taxes are imaginary or a waiter telling you that bleach is potable, well, that should be even more protected, right? I mean, if lying in a harmful way isn't the standard, what the fuck is? But despite this ridiculous premise, eight-ninths of the Supreme Court was willing to sign on to it. And look, this law that they struck down, it already exempted churches. Church counseling was still allowed to promote their bigoted bullshit.

The law only applied to therapy. So it's not like it even prevents religious people from all sitting around in a room trying to torture the gay out of an innocent child. It just says you can't do that under the guise. a therapy, as Katangee Brown Jackson felt the need to point out in her loan dissent, quote, Childs, that is the counselor bringing the lawsuit, is not speaking in the ether, she is providing therapy

to minors as a licensed health care professional, end quote. And you would think that much would be obvious, unless, of course, you were basing your conclusion on the majority opinion. And look, nothing changed about this case compared to the challenges that failed before. No new laws were

brought to bear, and to the extent that the argument was novel, it was novel in a direction that was less credible than previous arguments. What changed is what the Supreme Court thought they could get away with, and that is the only check on their power at this point. Well, sorry, that and whoever currently owns the lean on their collective consciences. They're talking about your Jesus. I interrupt this broadcast and bring you a special news bulletin.

Joining me for headlines tonight are the stop and look to my list. Heath Enright and Eli Bosnick, fellas. Are you ready to cross? I'm good. I'll get here. Feel good. Fine, but I'm watching you, Heath. Okay.

Way to stay thematic, guys. Love it. In our lead story tonight, the Washington Post's editorial board would like you to know that those scary European secularists are coming for your religious freedoms. Even though A, they're not. B, they couldn't and C, that would be awesome if they did.

Sounds like the Washington Post. Yeah, right. So the piece was titled a Free Speech farce in Finland. And it wasn't just some op-ed writer that they'd published. This came from the editorial board. And it was a deceptive hit piece about the recent decision from a Finnish High Court that held a religious person responsible for saying a bigoted thing. Okay. Well, I'm told that democracy dies in darkness.

That's what I hear. I've heard that. Hopefully Finland's democracy lives on. Their lives were saved thanks to the editorial board of Jeff Bezos's Washington Post. Yeah. So here's the story with a quick thanks to our favorite Finn Taru for helping me with some of the details. Ooh. A Finnish MP named, and I'm sure I'm going to pronounce this wrong, there are three

umlouts in this name. Hyvie Rossinen published a pamphlet back in 2004 about what a disgrace to God gay people are. In the pamphlet, she called homosexuality a, quote, disorder of psychosexual development and a quote, sexual abnormality, end quote, before concluding that it was a hellworthy sin that threatened the very fabric of human society. That part's not a quote, but that was the gist of it. And when she republished the pamphlet on Facebook in 2019, Finnish courts decided it was beyond the pale and they took her to court.

So a girl can't enjoy a little home-brewd hate speech anymore? Just because she's doing it in her official capacity is a government official now. Wow. Oh, God, it's not even that good. What can you bigot? What can you bigot now? Right. But so here's where the Washington Post's account diverges from reality.

After a lengthy legal battle, the court ultimately found her. guilty just as our last episode was coming out. And according to the op-ed, quote, because her statement was judged incorrect, she was found guilty, end quote. And then they go on to bemoan the fundamental right to be incorrect in a bigoted way if you do it religiously. And Rossinen is an ordained minister, damn it. If ministers can't say bigoted untrue things, they can't even do their fucking jobs at all. And I'm guessing the Finnish judge was like, yes, thanks for describing it. For us next. Next, we're done. Your honor, I've already thrown my gavelfish.

But here's the thing. It's a boomerang. Oh, no. From the mopet. But here's the thing. In addition to being an ordained minister and member of parliament, Rossinen is also a trained physician. And calling homosexuality a, quote,

disorder of psychosexual development is not a religious claim. That's a medical claim. That is speech according to the child's case that just kind of. Yeah, right. about how much scrutiny. Yeah, but that's a fucking medical claim and what she was found guilty of was making false medical claims,

a fact that the Washington Post conveniently omitted. What's more, any speech that specifically discriminates against a particular group of people, even if it's religious, is not protected according to Finnish law, as it shouldn't be. Yeah, so just to be clear,

ministers can keep doing their job. They'll just have to focus on saying things that are false, but not the specifically overt bigot false stuff. So they've got plenty of their catalog to work with. Plenty of lies in there, plenty of falsehoods. They just meant that they're like, top singles are getting fat.

Look, I'm sorry, but my job as a mechanic might be why you came to me, but my removing your engine because it was full of demons, that was my calling. Yeah. So, right. And so I want to be clear on this too. Look, this op-ed is obviously a fucking hit piece.

It is impossible to believe that the entire one, Washington Post editorial board is dumb enough to think that what they wrote was an accurate description of what happened. Plus, it's filled with ridiculous overstatements like this one, quote, courts should never decide which viewpoints are correct and which are not, end quote. That's the occupational equivalent of saying buses should never transport groups of people from one place to whatever. That's literally why we have courts in case we have to decide.

Buses have a forward bias. But the entire purpose that the editor is. editorial serves is to say, boy, we sure don't want to govern like them Europeans, do we, huh, American Christians? Which is a sentiment that post owner Jeff Bezos stands to benefit from a couple of different ways, I think. And in exit poll stage left news, Christian leaders in the UK did a poll. It went very badly.

Yeah. So, okay, according to Mark Twain, the former UK Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli once said, there are three kinds of lies. Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Nobody can find the original quote in anything Disraeli wrote, but the idea can be useful regardless of where it came from. If you make a claim, obviously it's a good idea to back it up with data. But people are mostly fucking stupid. So they make bad claims all the time and they don't know how data works all the time. That being said, there's good news for idiots with bad ideas. The people you're talking to are also mostly stupid.

So if you get some help from an evil nerd that you might know, you can present numbers in a misleading way that seems to support your very bad idea. That's what the quote is talking about. But there's one other option. You can just straight up lie about everything. Makes it so much easier. You can lie about the claim and make up numbers to back it up. Well, that's what happened when the Bible Society of the UK claimed there was a big spike in church attendance by young people recently.

and they based that claim on a study commissioned by them that was very clearly full of bad data. So lies, damn lies and stats all in one. And the claim, by the way, to be clear, that they had to lie in three different directions to make is we might suck slightly less now. Such a small claim. Can I just say life was so much easier when all you had to do was murder the smartest guy in your town? now that's just fucking wild hamlet metas and Michael Marshall springing out of the bushes of the internet, no matter what you do,

trying to tell a fun lie to your country. They're everywhere. And a big thanks to Mrs. R. and Adam Gray-Sull for being the first two of very many to send us a link to skating news at gmail.com. They were within five minutes of each other immediately after this news dropped.

So they both get a slow clap. So we talked about this claim from the Bible Society a few weeks ago when Marsh was on. Here's the basic idea in case anyone missed it. The original report from the Bible Society claimed that in 2018, 4% of 18 to 24-year-olds said they were Christians who went to church at least once a month. And by 2024, according to their numbers, that number had quadrupled. Marsh explained how the data they were. and was clearly full of people lying to UGov,

the group that conducted the poll for them. Or at least it was people who were just answering, you know, whatever without paying attention. And that was very obvious because every other survey of church attendance in the UK was indicating a downward trend. Nonetheless, the Bible Society got the data, and they immediately proclaimed a quiet revival in the UK. Wow. Christians get duped by a lot of people secretly agree with, us a lot.

Like all the fucking time. Yeah. Well, turns out Marsh was exactly correct as usual. Except for the placebo effect, Princess Diana and that plane over Pennsylvania on 9-11, Mars is batting a thousand on debunking stuff. And that includes the so-called quiet revival. It's more like a silent one. UGov officially retracted their survey last week, admitting that many respondents were definitely

fraudulent. They claimed to have quality control measures. that normally weed out the bad data like that. But those measures were not applied this time due to human error, is what they said. By which they mean, experts told us that giving people cash to say, whatever the fuck on a survey is not a great methodology.

And we pretended we couldn't hear them until just now. Also, we got commissioned by a Bible society, guys, so we're just like trying to make our money. But they're finally admitting they got it all wrong and UGov CEO Stephen Shakespeare gave an official apology and conceded their survey was, quote, not administered in the optimal way.

Well, you know, we can tell because it was wrong. Okay, but here's the thing. You're a Bible society. You get to say whatever the fuck you want, why would you venture into science and numbers to get it wrong, right? The only possible way to increase your chances of getting called out by autistic people

would be to, I don't know, make a survey about how many trains are in Andy Weir's books. Like you can just do your thing lying aloud. I think of a single train. So that was a pretty weak apology.

But the response from the Bible society was even worse. Despite being obviously wrong and continuing to trumpet their quiet revival as loudly as possible until just now when they got caught, instead of apologizing and retracting like any

intellectually honest group would do. They tried to blame it all on UGov. They released a statement saying quote, we're frustrated and disappointed to be in this position. UGov repeatedly assured us in private before publication and several times in public following the publication that

the results were reliable. And to be fair, putting an undue amount of trust in unreliable sources, this is our whole damn thing. We named our society after it and everything. I feel like your first hint might have been when they brought you your data and you asked them, hey, do you promise you're not lying?

Double promises? Cool. We're doing our whole thing. Yeah. So all that being said, I realize it's important to remember there's a difference between a mistake and a lie. This was a lie. I want to be so clear this was lying.

Sure was. Following the original report from last year, a bunch of smart people like Marsh immediately contacted the Bible Society and told them, approximate quote, okay, that's obviously wrong. I don't even need to check. Also, I did check, though, it's definitely wrong.

What they might call bearing false witness, which I'm told is bad by the book Their Society is named after. I do remember hearing that, yeah. And in JD Phone Home News, the Trump presidency has been so filled with unprecedented scandal that it's easy to forget that for almost the entire time

Trump's been president, crazy people have been trying to affirm the existence of aliens before Congress. Well, this week, Vice President J.D. Vance weighed in with his tank and... Oh, good. Yeah, it's the only thing possibly d. dumber than that. So we're going to talk about it. Yeah, so most of Jant's dance's job for the last month or so is getting the question, do you support Donald Trump's war with Iran?

And he has to come up with a new noise each time that's like, young. But different one, so just let him say existing words instead of noises, so he was excited, I guess. That's nice, yeah. Well, no, he clearly workshopped

outlandish shit, I can say, so that somebody will ask me about something other than my stance on Iran, and this is what they came up with, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So first off, big thanks to Power 19883 for sending us this story and pun to Skathing News at gmail.com.

I like to think that Power 19883 is a time traveler from the future who knows that the only way to save our civilization is to send atheist news to scathing news at gmail.com. Godspeed, power in 19883. Godspeed. Mostly unrelated. The common sci-fi trope that people 10,000 years from now will still be measuring their year based on Jesus's birth is silly. That's fair. That's fair. Right. So quick clarification. Because if you've been like casually paying attention, you've probably heard that there've been a bunch of hearings on aliens and that like military personnel have confirmed their existence

and that Trump is ready to release the files from Area 51 and Roswell. And almost all of that is just straight up lying bullshit. There have been hearings on UAPs. That's unidentified aerial phenomenon. But that can be everything from like unregistered commercial flights to spy planes from Russia and China. And so we should be talking about those things and those things are real. But a lot of the clips you're seeing from some, you know,

famous general confirming their existence, is him referring to people like not texting him when they send us a weather balloon. We got slack and signal and AOL. I can't get track of all that stuff. We also have to get away from this deeply ingrained idea that if they're holding hearings about in Congress, it must be very serious and real. Yeah, this is fair. This is also important. On the other hand, you have crazy people who just kind of had their day under President

Trump, right? So a lot of people who otherwise wouldn't have even been allowed to testify to anything other than like why they turned all their parking tickets into a lawproof helmet and showed up to court that way, they got to be on C-SPAN in the last couple of years. Okay. It's nice that we're doing like a make-a-wish for these adults with quantum 5G cancer or whatever. Let him throw out the first pitch at the crazy grievance hearing. Here you go. Yeah. Yeah, but of course, if idiots think it's real, J.D. Vance pretends that he does too.

So this week, on a YouTube podcast, he chimed in with what he thinks. While appearing on Benny Johnson's show, J.D. said, quote, when I came in, I was obsessed with the UFO files. I've already had a couple of times where I'm like, all right, we're going to Area 51. Yeah, where they keep all the Senate bills they fast. We're going to New Mexico. We're going to sort of get to the bottom of this. And then the timing of the trip just didn't work out.

But trust me, anybody who's curious about this, I'm more curious than anybody. And I've got three years of the very tippy top of the classification. I'm going to get to the bottom of it, end quote. Fucking Delta put me into Zone 8. It was crazy. I had to check my carry on. I did the thing where I tried to like be the first in Zone 8, but like that wasn't good. And I had to check it.

But once we get that settled, I'm there doing that thing. I'm sorry. wait, I believe we aren't alone in the universe and that the U.S. government is hiding evidence of an alien invasion, but they just keep having the visiting thing on poker night, and I've got obligations. It's so tough. It's my night to bring beer. Now, you might be wondering, hey, since he just said he hasn't had time to look into it, does he still have an opinion? And the answer, of course, is yes, yes, he does. Yeah, no, Republicans excel at having an opinion on things they haven't looked into, yeah. Nobody, nothing before everything they've said for a while.

Exactly. Quote, I don't think they're aliens. I think they're demons. I think that the desire to describe everything celestial as otherworldly, to describe it as aliens, I mean, every great world religion, including Christianity, the one that I believe in, has understood that there are weird things out there. And there are things that are very difficult to explain. And I naturally go, when I hear about, sort of extra natural phenomenon. That's where I go to is the Christian understanding, end quote. Yeah.

So anyway, they're domestic demons, not aliens, who are born here on Earth, but we're taking away their status with the citizens of things. And ICE is going to get them. We're all good. Oh, yeah. No, okay, I want to step back for a second and admire the logic of what he just said. If we just, if we take all that literally, here's the logic. Every religion believes that there are weird things.

this is a weird thing, ergo it's probably true. Yeah. That logic, you know, is a heartbeat away from the presidency. A slow, cloggy, big macful heartbeat at that. Yeah, it is. TikTok. He concludes, quote,

there's a lot of good out there, but there's also some evil out there. And I think that one of the devil's greatest tricks is to convince people he never existed. End quote from the vice president. Give me the motherfucking key Kevin Space as usual suspects.

So yeah, the vice president who hasn't looked into it is pretty sure the aliens we've heard about our demons but he's going to let us know about the evidence of the eternal soul that he has to hand when he gets around to it.

Yeah, right. Well, unless the demons show up on a Saturday afternoon because that's the only time his bassist can get together for band practice. Yeah, no, that's a big one. Sundays.

Jady just walks away, stops limping. Next up in headlines in Cape Hope Demon Hunter's News. Nice. Well done. Well done. Pope Bobby is getting ahead of the demon problem. So don't worry. It seemed like he was just ignoring it.

But we learned this week that he hosted a very serious meeting about this issue on March 13th. Bobby woke up that day, looked into his closet full of, I'm assuming, identical, all-white foreskin costumes chose his favorite one that made the most sense that day, and settled in for an important day of meeting with exorcists to address a very serious concern. The precipitous rise in

demon stuff recently. Yeah. Yeah, no, JD was really excited. He was going to reach out to thank him, but he figured he'd killed one Pope already. He can't risk it on it. Exactly. Yeah, you don't want to be that guy. And a big thanks to Freddie G. Hey. We're sending a link to Skathing News at GM.

Mail.com. See this weekend, Fred. Yeah, of course, we very much appreciate that. But it's not the reason he's officially the number one ranked player going into the upcoming Godawful Movies Pub Trivia Platinum Night in San Francisco this weekend. Fred earned it with skill. I still feel like my idea for a heckle table that just goes mea, meh, meh during the trivia that happens at Platinum Nights for live shows. I think that deserves a shot. I think you should open our hearts. Yeah. I'm sure you'll give that a shot again. And so the terrifying news about the spike in demonic activity finally made it to the Pope who speaks to God. Well, that's probably who told him, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And Bobby immediately summoned a delegation of Catholic priests to the Vatican for an emergency demon summit. These were the highest level experts in the field of exorcism from all over the world. And I'm not just blowing smoke here. they were all senior members of the AIE, the International Association of Exorcists. That's a real group of adults that exists in the world. Well, not to brag, listeners, but we are also a collection of the highest level experts in the field of exorcism. In fact, the three of us are actually tied for number one exorcist in the world.

We are. Factually accurate. And here's the advice that was given to Pope Bobby, according to the journalism team at EWTN. That's the Eternal World Television Network. Founded in 1981. The assembled dream team of top exorcists. Cazan, quote, presented a report on the growing prevalence of cases related to occultism,

esotericism, and Satanism, and the spiritual consequences they believe. this has for many people. And quote, and they begged the Pope to make sure that every diocese in the world, this is like a safety issue for them. They need every diocese in the world to have, quote, one or more adequately trained exorcist priests. Huh. Because without those people in place, congregants who encounter demons,

they might do something silly or stupid. Sure, sure. so the council of stocking manufacturers found out that legs were too cold, did they? Yeah, and also ears need podcasts. You can't listen to music in the car. It makes you sad. Right, it could. And in Diasis cease and desist news, over the last decade and a half or so, Christians have managed to smuggle a lot of bad behavior into the religious freedom rubric. So, apparently, a few enterprising Catholic priests in Minnesota thought to themselves, why not sexual abuse? So a lawyer defending two Minnesota priests,

charged with coercing women that they were counseling into sexual relationships is offering as their defense the fact that it totally would have been legal to coerce those women into sex if they hadn't been priests. Ergo religious discrimination. Yeah. And while we're on the topic, all these laws I'm seeing about fraud are religious. No, wait, it's just my first thing. Just my first thing. I'm not going to priest fucking. Everybody knows priests sexually abused people.

What do you think they do? Talk to God, grow up. And if you do that, they'll stop abusing you. That's another thing that's nice. Well, not these two, as it turns out, actually. So the two predators at the heart of this case, both came from the St. Cloud Diocese in Minnesota, fathers Joseph Herzing and Aaron Kuhn. And both their cases are similar.

In Herzig's case, he was counseling a woman for years before their relationship turned both sexual and violent. Kuhn isn't accused of any violence that I know of, but he also repeatedly sexually assaulted a woman. He'd been counseling over a period of several years. And apparently they retained the same lawyer who figured he could get like a twofer if he could convince a judge that priests had a constitutional right to coerce their parishioners into sex. Look, I don't know if you guys want to go in on a we raped a lady bigger bag, but I can get you a better price if you're interested. That's, yep.

Oh, you guys doing a bogo? Nice. Okay, so a couple of weeks ago, we talked about a law that Georgia was on the verge of passing that would put priest parishioner in the same category as like therapist patient when it came to sexual relationships. the law would recognize that there's just no way that a sexual relationship that begins with that power dynamic can be truly consensual. And I mentioned at the time that only 14 other states had a similar law in the books. Well, Minnesota is one of those 14. So even if there hadn't been any kind of threat of violence, these two still would have broken the law. But the argument from their lawyer is that the law itself is unconstitutional because priest.

Oh, because priests. Like how your clients don't pay property tax on their houses because priest? Also religious charities. Yeah, exactly. Non-religious charities don't get unconstitutional like that. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah. And I warned all of you that you are endangering something far more important than parishioners.

You are endangering nun porn with these laws. Okay. Sorry, do you think the nuns in non porn are actual nuns? Yes. Stupid question. And look, obviously this is not a religious freedom issue. It's pretty hard to argue that coercing your parishioners into sex is a priestly function, especially from a religion that expects their priest to remain celibate.

So this isn't about them exercising any religious duty, but it's also just like a category of relationship. Therapist patient, teacher, student, boss employee. The fact that priest is included in that category is just a recognition of the power dynamic. But the legal brief the lawyer filed would have you believe that any legal restriction applied to priest that isn't applied to the general public, even if it's applied to, like, other similar professions, is a violation of religious freedom.

And as much as I'd love to say that this is a patently ridiculous argument and it has no chance at all, I'm entirely aware of our Supreme Court. We talked about them in the diatribe. So I guess the best we can do is take a wait and see approach to this one. Yeah. And finally tonight, in Breed All About It News. At some point, CPAC,

the conservative political action conference got a lot more frequent, right? It seems like only yesterday that Charlie Kirk's widow was humbly entering their state accompanied by a shower of sparklers and yet here we are again with shenanigans afoot.

And while some of these shenanigans are delightful, like the I can't believe he didn't beat me to it, news that Mike Lindell was served a lawsuit while he was being interviewed. They're like, you already touched it. Ma'am, we're on TV right now. This is a television program. You can't serve me when I'm on TV.

That's what they say out. If I don't look directly at you in the eyes, it doesn't count. I threw it away. I put the papers over here. He actually throws them away. He does. He doesn't count. I crumpled.

I said I'm on TV. Crumple X Latin. So yes, while there are those amazing moments, there are others that are just unbelievable. Like right-wing YouTuber who announced during his speech at the event that his plan to beat the left, is to out breed us. Cool. Yeah, he sounds like a catch, just swimming in poon.

So good plan. Guys, your side can't get a woman to carry your child without outlawing abortion. Good luck. Yeah. So here's the quote. When asked what the majority priority is for their lives, young Trump voters, men and women, said my number one priority is having children and starting a family. That is the culture war right there.

That is the victory, ladies and gentlemen. I love that this guy thinks he can come Republicans. Right? Like the majority of our audience was part of this outbreed the left quiverful effort a generation ago. You guys are just, you're just making people, not people who will agree with you once they're legally allowed not to. Yeah. Mostly people who won't invite you to Thanksgiving to see your grandkids one day. Exactly.

He continues, because the left, we're just going to outbreed them. Can I get a witness? Can I get an amen? we're just going to outbreeve the left. You ever met a lib? They're hideous. Nobody wants to have sex with them, end quote. And gentlemen, I've included a few pictures of Mr. Benny Johnson, the podcaster,

a question in our notes. What do you think? Is he got us? Is he got us good here? He does have a bunch of that Kremlin money for regurgitating the propaganda on his show. And we know about that for sure 100%. That's what happens. So that's a plus.

That money's a plus. I like that. But he does look like the guy on the debate team who thinks he's the hockey enforcer for debate. I'd fuck him once, but I wouldn't put a baby in him. I'd go once. All right. All right. On his back. Okay, so I'm just going to go ahead and say it. It really doesn't matter what you

look like if your opening bid is, hey, baby, want to help outbreed the lips. Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Benny concludes the pink hair, the yellow teeth, plus they're cutting their dicks off, makes it very easy for us. I don't know why. It's not up to me. They're the ones who choose to do it. end quote. And then he concluded his talk with a USA-style Christ's King champ. Jesus. This is amazing. The Republican plan for victory is to go fuck themselves. That's actually what they're going with.

Yeah. So if anyone's on the fence about having kids out there, actually, still don't have kids if you don't want them. They're great, but they scream at you about the brand of Animal Cracker. You brought them while they watched iPod. Had you bring the wrong one. Yeah. That's your fault. So yeah, just know that Benny Johnson has no such discretion. That affects your math.

All right. Well, with that reminder to just bring the right fucking animal cracker next time, we're going to wrap up the headlines for the night. Eli, thanks, as always. Jumangi. And when we come back, Marshall will be here with a fun,

jocular story about AIDS denialism. You know, sometimes on this show, we're accused of being too America-centric because we are. But to make up for that, sometimes we bring a British guy on to talk about a German guy, which will be the case with this installment of Who's Woo? And, of course, the British guy in question is co-host of the Skeptics with a K podcast

and the No Rogan Experience. Michael Marshall Marsh, welcome back. Hey, guys, always a pleasure to be here to tell you about someone else genuinely awful from recent history, it turns out. Yeah, yeah, no, this is a good, like, hateable one. So tell us, who do you have for us today? In my ongoing tour of the Hall of Infamy, that is Who's Woo. I'm always keen to keep things varied, you know, keep things fresh.

So last time around, we talked about Eric Van Danigan, one of the most famous people in the Wu world. So today I want to talk about someone who is far from a household name. And while Van Danigan, his pseudoscience was mostly harmless. Today, I want to talk about someone whose work resulted in more deaths than I think I've ever covered in Whose Woo before. Stephen Miller. It's about time.

Excellent. Yeah. And by introducing it that way, I can bring. pretend that I haven't just been looking at list of notable pseudoscientists who've died this year. Because today, I'm going to be talking about Professor Peter Duesberg. Oh, I thought Stephen was dead. Yeah, that would be nice. Yeah, no.

All right. So, Mars, that's fine. But the next guy better not be recently dead to her. We're going to be in a son of obituary turf war, you and I. Leave it to the British guy to not stay in his lane. Right. Right. Am I right?

So Peter Heinz Hermann Duesberg was born in Munster, Germany, in December. 1936. And after doing a PhD in chemistry at the University of Frankfurt, he moved to the US in 1964 to take up a position at the University of California, Berkeley, because employing German scientists was just all the rage in the US in the 1960s. Yeah. And studying their work is all the rage now, so it's topical. That's good. At Berkeley, Jusberg specialized in molecular and cellular biology with an emphasis on cancer. And this was at a time when scientists believed that a yet to be discovered, series of viruses were going to be the root of all cancers. And Duesberg initially was no different to that.

So in 1971, he sequenced the entire genome of the Rousse-Sarcoma virus, or RSV, which is a chicken virus that was thought to be able to trigger tumor growth. And then from that entire genome, he identified the SRC gene, often pronounced SIRC, which could cause rapid unchecked cell growth when it's inserted into the horse genome. And then after that discovery, two other scientists found an analogous circ gene in human cells that when mutated did exactly the same thing as the viral form of the gene. I bet that fame got him circ disolade. Jesus.

Wow. Now, this guy sounds like a real asshole, Merce. Real asshole. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, strap in, strap in. So this work actually won Jusberg International Praise, as well as tenure at Berkeley in 1973. and there were even rumors of a potential Nobel Prize. However, while his discovery helped change the face of cancer research,

with some researchers focusing on new cancer viruses and others going off to look for oncogenes within human cells, Jusberg chose to take a different path, completely rejecting the importance of mutations and oncogenes in cancer growth at all, which was the very thing that his international fame had been established on. Okay, but why? Why would the German scientists do that? March. Why, though?

So, okay, he had a couple of reasons for doing it. First of all, he was persuaded by a 1914 theory from a German scientist named Todor Bavari, which pointed out that cancer cells, they often contain an abnormal number of chromosomes, which is a trait known as aneuploidy. So Jusberg reasoned that while there were too many chromosomes in a cell, that cell would then start to divide uncontrollably,

which would therefore cause cancer. Now, according to other researchers, Anuploidy was actually a consequence of the cancer and not a cause of the cancer. Essentially, once a cell gets hit by a mutation or a virus, it then can't reproduce healthily. It becomes cancerous, and when you look at it, you start to see signs of aneuploidy. Jusberg believed something that flew in the face of the entire rest of his profession. And though, as we'll hear, he actually was listening to the idea that something can be a consequence of a disease without it being the cause of a disease. Hey, Marsh, so far this is just kind of like a nerd fight about someone being wrong.

I'm going to need like an alien or some gold plane. Yeah, I mean, just keep strapped in. Keep strapped in. I promise you we'll get there. So Jusberg also dismissed the idea that mutations had any role at all in causing cancer because some carcinogens like arsenic and asbestos didn't cause mutations, but they did cause cancer. Also, you couldn't point to a single mutation that was sufficient to cause cancer in a healthy cell.

Scientists today understand it doesn't have be one mutation that does it. It can be like a collection of mutations that all act together. But Juseberg refused to accept that. If you can't point to one single mutation that caused the cancer, mutations can't be to blame for cancer. Okay, this sounds like when they demand that we tell them which hurricanes were caused by global warming or something. It really does, doesn't it?

So according to Jusberg, neither mutations nor viruses could cause cancer. and that was a position that disputed two decades of his own work. But while he'd made his name researching cancer, the 1980s would actually see a different health crisis as the defining health crisis of the era. And that was the emergence of AIDS. Wow, cancer and AIDS, you're spoiling us with comedy fodder here, Marsh. My cup ran it over.

Really putting you through your paces on this one. So, AIDS came to public consciousness as an illness that was initially spreading through the gay male community first. and it caused a catastrophic immune system failure where patients fell severely ill and even died from infections that would otherwise be relatively easy for a healthy body to clear.

But because you had no immune system, you couldn't. Oh, and here's the funny thing about that. It's a little funny. Marsh, go ahead. So, the cause of this was completely unknown. And because it was in 1980s and because large parts of the world weren't taking kindly to the increased visibility

of gay people, the cause was also initially under-researched. Some assumed it was a consequence of all of the hedonism, sin, and sodomy of a heavily stigmatized gay community. Yeah, and a bunch of hetero world leaders being like butt stuff. What even is that? I don't even understand what you say. Anyway, the CIA did it. So that's what happened.

But don't worry, everybody. When I was growing up, we had to watch a movie in school about how the real problem is that gay people wouldn't stop fucking. And it was a weird vibe. It was a weird vibe. Now, Jusberg at this time, he was a famous academic in a field which overly valued the opinions of white men with tenure. And he was very happy to opine on what was the cause of all the death and suffering of the early AIDS epidemic. And it's worth pointing out, while Jusberg wasn't a product of the politics of 1930s Germany, he was too young during the war. Thank goodness.

He certainly was a product of the staunched German Catholic conservative upbringing. And those were views that stuck with him for his entire life. Like, there was a terrifying, genuinely terrifyingly sycophantic 2009 Newsweek article about Juseberg. And in that terrifyingly sycophantic article breaks from painting a picture of Jewsburg as direct, quote, a fallen hero and a reviled genius. To point out that in conversation with the journalist,

he referred to gay people as homos and black people as Schwarzes. And he casually joked about how women are inferior to men, saying, quote, When you take away the Y chromosome and put an X in its place, you lose all the IQ genes. Woof. And honestly, given some of his later theories, we don't even know for sure if he was joking or postulating there. Yeah, exactly. So it's fair to say that Jusberg was not in the 1980s, keen to extend sufficient sympathy to the gay community to really investigate what might be caused in the AIDS epidemic, which we know was the human immunodeficiency virus. Now, HIV is a virus, and it's a retrovirus at that. Groovy, baby.

Oh, my God. It says retro. You've been talking about AIDS for like 60 solid seconds, March. I was about to start rhyming the ends of your sentence. Well, if I'm talking about AIDS, it's going to be quite easy to rhyme AIDS. I'm giving you a little part of free, basically, yeah. Marsh, if you managed to avoid saying retro somehow, Eli would have exploded. According to, Jewsburg, retro.

have an evolutionary imperative to always be harmless because apparently, quote, they depend on viable cells for the replication of their RNA from viral DNA integrated into cellular DNA. So as such, according to Duesberg, no retrovirus can result in harm to the host organism because if they cause harm, they be harming their own ability to spread. And why would the virus do that to itself? Okay. Yeah, that's the retrovirus. But the, the au-courin viruses, on the other hand, Those are suicidal.

So we can just focus on CBT for those and we'll be good to go. Yeah. Yeah. No, this obviously couldn't be a thing. That would be like poor people voting for Republicans. It's evolutionarily impossible for something to do something that's against its interests. Yeah, exactly. And so one of the other problems is lots of AIDS patients who are presenting with something called carpozy sarcoma or KS.

And KS is a type of cancer that usually occurred in aging men of Mediterranean ancestry. except now has been seen in large numbers among young gay men, including young African-American men who were under the age of 20. This was unheard of. They were just fucking a bunch of old white guys in the Mediterranean area? Yeah, exactly. Because the reason was the HIV virus was leading to compromised immune systems, which made people more susceptible to the specific form of herpes virus that called KS.

That was the reason unless you listened to Peter Duesberg, the noted cancer expert who disagreed. Yes, he thought it was too much. many soup, salad, and breadsticks. So look, in 1987, Duesberg wrote a now infamous article in the journal Cancer Research, titled Retroviruses as Carcinogens and Pathogens, Expectations and Reality, where he explained that HIV is actually just a fairly weak passenger virus. His argument was that AIDS virus could be just the most common occupational infection of those

at risk for AIDS. Or, to put it another way, yeah. Yes, you do see HIV in tissue samples that you've taken from AIDS patients, but that's only because their compromised immune system was too weak to fight off HIV. And when you look for HIV in samples from non-AIDS patients, you don't find it there because HIV is such a weak virus that a healthy immune system can just dispatch it easily. You see, that's what's happening.

The presence of HIV is a consequence of the immune system issue, but not the cause of the immune system issue. Oh, okay, then drink some. Yes. Okay, if it's not HIV, then what's the cause, German scientist? What's your theory? And he had theories. He absolutely had theories. If Jusberg was right and if HIV was really just an inconsequential bystander in an otherwise ravaged human body, that didn't answer the question to what exactly was causing all those immune systems to fail and collapse. And that is where the Jusberg hypothesis came in. And it was genuinely known as the Jusberg hypothesis. So the reason for all those immunity issues is because

the patients were gay. And you know what those homos are like with all their partying and the late nights and the promiscuous sex and the recreational drugs? Now, I know what you're thinking. That might sound like the nightclub scene in 1980s. So, but that wasn't, there wasn't exactly a thriving gay club scene in downtown Kinshasa during the 1980s. Right.

How could he possibly account for the epidemic that ravaged Africa? Well, according to Dewsburg and the Jewsburg hypothesis, AIDS didn't happen in Africa. There wasn't AIDS in Africa. Instead, what there was was chronic malnutrition, poor sanitation, and hemophilia. And it was just a complete coincidence that all of those things contributed to an immune system collapse in exactly the same way in places where HIV virus was spreading like wildfire. Okay. This is a take so stupid. It feels like you would disprove it for an eighth-grade science activity with like popsicle sticks for meth using gay people and popsicle sticks for people in Africa

and be like, but if the populations aren't connected by their meth use, then how many popsicle sticks are in the middle? Yeah, and then a bunch of other popsicle sticks for people who accidentally caught the HIV virus while working with samples of HIV tissue. Right, yeah, right. Not engaging, not being in Africa and not engaging in gay sex

in nightclubs, yeah, exactly. Those popsicle six are the saddest. Never had me. He first published that argument in that 1987 paper in cancer research. He then developed that argument into a 1996 book, inventing the AIDS virus, and he developed it in papers like his 1998 paper,

the AIDS dilemma, drug diseases blamed on a passenger virus. In it, he argued there's a statistical correlation between trends in recreational drug use and trends in AIDS cases, but while it should be obvious while he was wrong about that, it is worth pointing out the rates of drug usage between the gay and straight populations in the 1980s was pretty even because a lot of people just took drugs. Sure.

And also, people didn't then stop taking drugs after the 1980s, yet the AIDS epidemic is no longer as prevalent or deadly as it was during the 80s and 90s. Also, like, gay men weren't the only ones having a lot of sex in the 1980s, and they weren't having more sex than gay men are today. Okay, but maybe the gay people just have more endurance. So it's like the same number of sex havings. That's what people say, right? Sex is.

But they just last longer so that it makes it. I said all that in my science paper. Yeah. Look, in particular, Jusberg actually pointed to the use of a specific drug. Alkyl nitrate, sometimes amyl nitrate, often called poppers, which those were widely used in the gay community,

and they were recorded to Jusberg because of all of those cases that you saw of Carporsi sarcoma. Except, again, this was just him looking at a thing that was associated with the gay male lifestyle, and then blaming that without any evidence of causation. And he'd done that because he'd already convinced himself no virus could contribute to anything that might cause cancer. Okay, you know, loosen up that butt with Popper's more endurance.

This all tracks. It's all coming together. Yeah, this is great. Okay, baby owning Madonna's book causes cancer. Also, hey, everybody. I know the stereotype of homophobes being secretly gay is problematic for a lot of reasons. But I do need to point out that if you knew about pop,

in the 80s, you were actually secretly gay. That's just science. That's the Jusberg principle right there. So arguably, the most damaging aspect of the Jusbergh hypothesis came from Jusberg noticing that many of the first AIDS patients to receive treatment were given Zidavudin, otherwise known as A-ZT, which is an antiretroviral drug. And those patients who received that drug were among those who were most unwell, and among the many to die.

Therefore, AZT must have been causing their illness and killing those patients. What he refused to accept, of course, is that AZT was the first AIDS medication to be ready for use in the middle of an epidemic that was killing people in tens of thousands. So obviously you're going to give it to the most ill patients and some of those are just going to die.

Right. Yeah, he's thinking lots of data showing that hospital front doors are like real deadly. Yeah. Tricky. Put that in your science paper. What about in the other? Africa. Well, according to Jewsburg, I say there's no such thing as AIDS in Africa. Instead,

he said it's a case at the CDC and the WHO manufacturing contagious plagues out of non-infectious medical conditions like malnutrition and unsafe drinking water. It's actually transmitted malnutrition and unsafe drinking water, mind you. But yeah. Yeah, exactly. And this myth, he said, was actually egged on by the media in order to help secure funding for bogus AIDS initiatives. And then it was supported by local doctors who were actually paid to keep up the pretends. Big AIDS. He's blamed them in on B. Absolutely. We should really be tailing all the doctors in the world because they do a bunch of conspiracies during their all-doctor world meetings. Yeah. Whatever they are, just check in on that. We can find out everything.

Some deadly shit. I'll never understand people who believe in worldwide conspiracies who also have tried to merge in traffic. Have you not seen? It's tricky to coordinate people. It really is. And look, Rather than being dismissed, Juseberg's ideas, the Jusberg hypothesis, was taken up by other AIDS deniers of the time. And unfortunately, that included Tabo Mbeke, the AIDS denier who was the South African president from 1999 to 2008.

Mbekech appointed Jusberg as an advisor to lead South Africa's AIDS policy in 2000, and as a result, an estimated 300,000 South Africans died. Oh, did they find out about paupers? Look, it's not that Jewsburg accepts those figures, though, of course. In 2009, he published an article in medical hypotheses titled HIV-AIDS hypothesis out of touch with South African AIDS, a new perspective. What are you trying to get clicks on TikTok?

This one weird trick is killing a bunch of African people. It's very SEO'd as a title from a paper, I've got to admit. Gross. Well, in this paper, he denied that his advice had led to any death in South Africa and indeed anywhere else. According to reviewers, the paper consisted of cherry-pick data alongside statements

that were taken completely out of context. Also, Dewsberg failed to disclose that his co-author on the paper was affiliated with a notorious seller of fake AIDS treatments, Matthias Rath. Okay, I kind of invented the podcasting business model, though?

That's a cool thing, right? Also, Matthias Rath feels like a crossed-out pseudonym Noah passed on before he came up with Noah Lewis. Right? It was like, Matt Rang! It really does. It really does. So after investigation, the journal retracted the article,

but the University of California, Barclay took no further action. And Jusberg remained a tenured professor, which was a position that he held when he was interviewed by Joe Rogan for the Joe Rogan experience in 2012, which set Rogan on a path to becoming the full-blown AIDS denier that he remains to this day. He genuinely is an AIDS denier to this day.

He's not the only prominent figure to take up Jusberg's torch, in the modern era, there are actually over 100 pages dedicated to repeating the Jusberg hypothesis in the 2021 book, The Real Anthony Fauci, written by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Huh. Yeah, by the way, there's a rumor going around, Marsh, that you started the No Rogan experience because you were running out of assholes to talk about on this segment.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a Ponskasty scheme. What? Ponzi. Do you're going to take another run at that? No. No, you're happy? I did great. the first time.

Ruby, baby. Hans Save America. So happily, Peter Dewsberg had a stroke in 2021, which left him unable to speak. Hooray! Nice. And he died in January of this year. But don't worry.

His work lives on in the form of the world's most popular podcaster and the current head of the Department of Health and Human Services. To wildly influential men who will no doubt out get to sit alongside Peter Duesberg in future editions of Who's Woo? All right.

Well, with that reminder that we've got an RFK Jr. Who's Woo in our future? Probably going to have to be a fucking six-part or something. We're going to wrap up. Marsh, thanks again. Before we hit the stairs this week, I want to remind you that this is your last chance to pick up tickets to see us as we break down the Melania movie in San Francisco. Tomorrow, that's Friday, April 3rd, good Friday.

Tickets are still available at godoffelmovieslive.com or just check the show notes. Anyway, that's all the blast movie we've. got for you tonight, we'll be back in 10,000, 20, two minutes with more. If you can't wait that long, be on look up for a brand new episode of our sister show's hot friend God off a movies debuting at 7 Eastern on Tuesday and an even newer episode of our half-sars show citation needed debuting at noon Eastern on Wednesday. Obviously, I'd be at risk of disciplinary action if I neglected to thank Heath Enright for being a jolly good fellow, Eli Bosn for being a jolly good fellow, Michael Marshall

for being a jolly good fellow and lucid illusions who nobody can deny. I also want to thank Josh for providing this week's Farnsworth quote. He said it might be too dumb or short to use, but Josh, listen to me. It was not dumb. It was fucking brilliant. and there's no such thing as too short to use. Too long to use? Yes, that happens all fucking time.

But brevity is the soul of wit, and new listeners don't know what the fuck is going on until the music kicks in. But most of all, of course, I want to thank this week's most marvelous mammalia. Paul Michelle, Kara, Skiff, Carrie, appropriately inappropriate, Wanda Bean and Angie. Paul, Michelle and Kara, who are so cool

that coats and gloves are there to keep us warm, Skiff, carry, and inappropriate or so hot, the money they gave to us had burned edges, even though it was a digital transfer. And Wanda Bean and Angie, who the FBI considers people of interest, just because they're so damn interesting. Together, these eight amiable atheists

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which was used with permission. If you have questions, comments, or death threat, you find all the contact info on the contact page at scathingatheas.com. All right. So I love that Trump has given his big war speech on... Reconciliation Day. It's so good. April Fool's Day?

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