The Science of Flipping - Episode 66: How Daniil Kleyman Evolves With Changing Real Estate Economies

Episode Date: September 17, 2015

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Welcome to the Science of Flipping Podcast. I'm your host, Justin Colby. Welcome, welcome, welcome everybody to the Science of Flipping Podcast. I am your host, Justin Colby, and I am very excited today. One, it's under 90 degrees in Phoenix, Arizona right now, which is incredible. So very excited about that. But two, I have a very, very special guest on the line that is an absolute baller in real estate investing. He has evolved over and over again to grow his businesses in multiple different

fashions. Before I bring him on the line, guys, I just want everyone to understand, if this is your first time to the podcast, or maybe you just happen to jump to this episode as a random episode to listen to, this podcast is all about building systems and processes in your business so that you don't have to work in your business. I can't tell you how many real estate investors do absolutely everything in their business and don't leverage anyone else in their business so they have no free time. This podcast is all about being able to create the life you want to live by design with intention and take your actions and move forward with intention so that you can be on vacation or go visit friends or whatever that

may be. If you guys don't know my story, it wasn't always easy. Me and my business partner started out in 2007, and we completed one deal in our first nine months. That's nine months of making no money. And when I say no money, I mean no income at all. We both lost our houses. We both lost our cars. Our personal lives were in shambles. I was sleeping on my buddy's couch because I couldn't afford rent. In fact, I couldn't afford dinner. I couldn't afford going out for some drinks on the weekends. We were struggling. Nine months later, we finally got our first deal done and we made a whopping $7,000.

And several weeks later after that, we got our second deal done. And for the year as a whole, we made, yep, you guessed it, $14,000 in our first year of business. And so it was not always as easy as what people look at me now and have conversations with me now. I want you to know we've been there. From that point, we invested a lot of money into real estate investing coaching. From that point on, we did six deals the next year, 20 deals the next year, 46 deals the next year, 96 deals the next year, so on, so on, so on. We now have been developing a development out in Mesa, Arizona, and our business continues to evolve. But more so than anything,

it's because we put our processes and systems in place to drive our business. So that's what this is all about, guys. So again, if this is your first time, welcome. If you have not been here before, go to thescienceofflipping.com. I wrote a book all about what it took to get us where we are. It is currently selling on Amazon. But if you are listening to this podcast, feel free to go get it for free. Go to thescienceofflipping.com, and I will give you my top-selling book, aptly named The Science of Flipping. So, again, go to The Science of Flipping. Download the book for free. No need to go to Amazon, and I will give you that book.

All right. Now that all of that is out of the way, guys, I am happy to bring on my friend and special guest and big baller investor, Daniel Klayman. Are you there, buddy? How are you? I am. I think big baller may be an overstatement, but I appreciate it. Hey, well, I like the humbleness. We were just down in San Diego together, and we got to talk in business, and you're doing

very, very well for yourself. And I'm happy that you were able to make some time for me and all of our loyal listeners here on the Science of Flipping podcast. So I greatly appreciate your time, bud. Yeah, absolutely. Very happy to be here. Yeah. And so to start out, I want to give everyone kind of a high level picture of who you are

and what you've done. And I want you to kind of jump in and to help paint that picture. But I know you've been an investor full time since 2009, which is similar to where I started back in 07. So it was a fun short sale world time. I know for the most part, your entire business focuses on not just new construction, but extensive reconstruction, right? So you are a fix and flipper and developer is more common names for that. And you actually have a software, an analytical software that you have developed about the same time that you got into the business, which helps you, like I say,

systemize your business and analyze your business so that you can run it, run it effectively, correct? Yeah, absolutely. So expand a little bit about what kind of got you started, where you went as far as a lot of people come into this real estate investing world. Maybe they come in as a wholesaler first to get their first couple of checks. It sounds like you just dove head first into construction, developing, flipping, the whole nine yards to really just make a footprint in your area. Yeah, I started off actually passively buying a couple of properties with a friend of mine. I was living and working in New York and I bought a couple of rental properties

with a buddy of mine that was living in Virginia. That was back in 2006, 2007. I bought a couple of properties at the peak of the market essentially. But then the market crashed. The company I was working for went out of business. I, by that point, was scheming for a long time about how not to have a job anymore because I just have, I guess, terrible attitude problems with bosses and employers

and just was never really cut out to be an employee. So at that point, at the end of 2008, 2009, I moved back to my hometown, my home state of Virginia. And, you know, I did a couple of wholesale deals when I was starting out, but I really wanted to jump very quickly into replacing my income from my old job through passive real estate ownership. That was always my big focus from the beginning. I've always said it. I can't get excited about a $5,000 or $10,000 check if it's one time. What gets me more excited is the $500 check that comes in every single month for the next 10 years. That gets me more excited. So I was never really interested in doing a lot of flipping, a lot

of wholesaling. I really kind of became focused almost right away on building an income-producing portfolio because I think from the very beginning, I asked myself, you know, what do I want my life to look like? And having just come out of a job where I had to work 80, 90-hour weeks and feel lucky to have a one-week vacation every six to nine months, I knew that what I wanted my life to look like was time flexibility, freedom, ability to go travel, go out of the country for a month at a time, month and a half at a time, which I've done many times since 2009. So that's always been a big focal point for me. I kind of jumped into that aspect of investing really quick. At the time, back in 2009, 2010, there were a lot of opportunities

to buy really cheap REOs that needed some work and turn them into rentals. So that's how I started off, basically being a full-time investor. That's awesome. And so it's something that you and I have had conversations about as recently as even this morning, you and I were kind of conversing. We talk about our business evolving a lot and you and I have gone through several different evolutions as most of the listeners know and you know.

You know, I started off as a flipper back out in 2007, a fix and flipper, right? And from that, we became very successful to a point where we started, you know, at the peak of our fix and flipping business, we were doing 22 deals a month. And we really had a good system and processes in place to be able to do that. And that started to lead into development. And from there, we decided, you know, as the market starts changing, some of these bigger dollar amounts that we basically have on our shoulders, which are loans, right? All these loans that we're doing with the construction loans and the acquisition loans and you name it. We started to realize that it'd be good to have some of that cash, right?

Cash is king idea. And for you, it was always going to be the rental market to be able to have 10, 15, you know, $500 checks coming in a month. For us, we started to evolve into more of the quick cash and wholesaling, the $5,000, $10,000, $20,000 pops at a time that we can just replicate over and over and over again. So it's interesting how our businesses have kind of evolved into a point where I'm actually talking to you now more about, you know, the buy and hold world and the best way to approach that, because we now basically have three divisions, fix and flip, you know, development, wholesaling,

and we would like to start a fourth, which is the buy and hold world, right? And you have done very well with that. And, you know, tell me a little bit more about that world and how that all came about and, you know, go from there. Well, so what's interesting is, you know, if you're talking about evolving, I, for the first time now, I'm actually adding, whereas you're going, you're saying, you know, you've done a lot of flips and quick cash deals. You're adding rentals to your business mix. I'm actually, I'm continuing focusing on rentals, but I'm actually for the first time adding flips to my business mix. Right.

Because, and it's just a function of the opportunities that the market presents. One of the reasons I'm humble and I try to be humble about my real estate called quote-unquote success, if that's what you want to call it, is because I haven't been tested and I'll be the first to say this, right? And I'll say the same thing for you, by the way, Justin. We haven't been tested long-term yet. We got started. And for some reason, people think that was a really hard time to get started in real estate when the market crashed. And I will say that it was an amazing time to get started in real estate because the deals were just so cheap. There were so many opportunities.

So a lot of young guys like you and me, we've built our businesses starting from the market crash and we've traveled along with the recovery, right? I think the real test of time for you, for me, for everybody else like us will be next five to seven years as the market levels off, inventory tightens, interest rates may start going up, right? I think that's going to be the real test for a lot of guys like you and me. We've built big businesses, but we haven't really been tested by the market yet. But those of us that are going to last, we will be the ones that evolve along with the market, right? So I started off doing single family rehabs because you could go out and you could buy REOs so cheap,

far below replacement value often, sometimes below the value of the land, right? And so that was the sector that made sense. As REO inventory started getting tighter and tighter and tighter, right? And people start, more and more investors started jumping back into the market in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013. I started focusing on, you know, what's the next asset class that people aren't really paying attention to?

So I started buying up info lots around me, right? Land that I could build two four-unit buildings on. Single-family houses. That's what I've been doing for the past two years. I've transitioned my business. I don't even want to rehab houses anymore. I'd rather do

new construction. It's much easier. Now my business has transitioned to new construction. I started building duplexes from scratch. I built like 10 or 12 of them over the last 12 to 14 months, right? Because land, there was less competition for land, people weren't paying attention, so I got some land cheap, and they started building rental properties from scratch.

Now I own a bunch of lots where I know, given the market and given the retail demand and how high it is in this area, I can build some single family homes and make a very, very good profit on them. And that can contribute equity to continue building my rental portfolio. Absolutely. Yeah, well, being a lender has always been kind of our leading. You go almost in reverse to us, right? We started flipping and now we're going into the progression of going into ultimately buying I think it's something that we talk about a lot is, you know, the timing of the market is going to mean a lot, right? Like right now is a great time to get loans. You still can get loans very, very cheap.

But, you know, as the markets change and as the political economy changes and, you know, the presidential run, you know, passes, things can change. And you got to always be aware of those things. Because no matter whether you're developing or fixing, flipping, or if you have a lot of money out there as a whole, it can be a very dangerous thing. And I think it takes a lot of foresight to be able to kind of predict, you know, when that time to pull up a little bit, and then another time to, to jump in a different avenue, which it sounds like you've done very, very well with, you know, kind of with the foresight of planning what avenue to go next, right? Is it by the infill lots?

Is it, you know, by some larger rehab homes? You know, not in evil. Well, yeah, it's basically trying, and this is, you know, I'm figuring out how to do it better, but it's trying to lock and load for the next market cycle, right? Because everybody, most investors focus on where's the quick money opportunity now? Where's the quick money opportunity now? And I understand that because you've got to eat, right? But the people that make the real money are able to say, okay, what's the asset class that people aren't focusing on right now that they're not chasing because that asset class isn't sexy, right? So a couple of years ago, man, if I could go back, take $10 million with me and go back two, three years ago, I'd be buying up every infill lot I could get my hands on. Because now that's what everybody's chasing around here.

And the people that are holding those infill lots have the luxury of saying, okay, I can build a house on it and make $100,000. Because there is retail demand for housing. So to me now, what I'm evolving into is I'm saying, I don't even want to mess around with single family rentals anymore. Like you won't catch me renovating a single family house. It's just not worth the trouble. What I'm focusing on now,

and I've got a couple of projects in the pipeline, I'm starting to build ground up mixed use or developments or apartment buildings because I'm saying to myself, all right, let's say interest rates start spiking. You know, the Fed's been threatening to raise interest rates for a long time. What's going to happen? Well, retail demand for housing will probably go down because people's buying power will be lessened by the higher interest rates. Maybe the political climate becomes even more uncertain.

So that's just going to mean more renters. So I'm trying to lock and load for the next market cycle by having additional rental inventory. Yeah. You and I were just talking briefly just about the idea of the loans to making it a profitable thing. A lot of people go out there, and I have hundreds of students across the country. They'll go out there with the idea that you're talking about. And they get the concept, right? But they don't really do it the proper way or at least, I guess I would say, the most profitable way that they can do it, right?

Because they understand the concept that you're talking about right now, but they don't know how to really do it the right way. Well, and it all depends on what your resources are, right? I mean, if you're sitting at home and you've got bills you need to pay in 30 days, I'm not telling you to do what I do, right? You need to go and wholesale a house and make quick $5,000, $10,000, right? And this is what i tell our students and our subscribers all the time you need to take an inventory of what your current resources and

goals are right if if you have some patient money sitting around and you you can be thinking for the long term right but if you if you need to go make some quick money, then no, you should be, unfortunately, you're going to be stuck doing what everybody else is doing, which is chasing the immediate opportunities right in front of you. Right. Does that make sense? Does that kind of answer your question? Yeah, and I think what I was kind of more getting to is they don't necessarily acquire

the home in a proper way. I mean, you and I were talking a little bit about loans and the type of loans to get, right? Going to your local bank a lot of times is going to be a much better opportunity than maybe going to Wells Fargo or Chase. And even better is a lot of times going private money. Might even be a little bit more expensive, but oftentimes can be a lot more flexible and easygoing.

And so that was the question I was talking about, is they don't do it necessarily. They do it, but it's not necessarily the best way to be doing it. You know what I mean? Yeah, I see where you're going. Yeah, I mean, if people are looking, if people are looking to buy and hold,

there is a misconception out there that really your only option is to go and get a conventional Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac mortgage like you would for your personal residence,

right? And that's not really an option. If you're looking to buy a property that needs renovation, the only kind of loan you can get from conventional lenders,

these 30-year fixed rate lenders, is going to be a 203K loan, which is for your personal residence. That's the only renovation loan they'll give you, right? If you're buying sort of turnkey rentals and you have good income and great credit and don't mind dealing with just loads of paperwork, then yeah, you can still go out to a mortgage broker and get a conventional 30-year mortgage as long as you don't have more than, I think now it's 10 properties mortgaged. But it's a nightmare.

So people think that's their only option. Well, no. You've got local community banks in your town. These are local community lenders and credit unions. They're mandated to lend on real estate in your local market, and they are portfolio lenders, which basically means a portfolio lender is, that's how lending used to be back in the day, right? Back in the day in the 1950s or 60s, you'd pull up to your bank on Main Street, you'd walk in, you'd shake the loan officer's hand, he knew you by name, you'd say, hey, you hey, I want a loan on the house.

They would issue you a mortgage, and they would keep that mortgage on their books in-house and service it for the life of the mortgage. They wouldn't sell it off into the secondary market, to Wall Street. It wouldn't have to be backed by Fannie and Freddie. It wouldn't be securitized. So the point of what I'm saying is because these local banks make portfolio loans, they have far more flexibility in their lending guidelines and who they do business with.

They're much friendlier towards investors, much friendlier towards investors. They give out construction loans. So right now I'm getting ready to build six houses. I'm getting a construction loan from a local bank at, I think, four and a quarter percent. It's an interest-only loan for the next 12 months. Now, these houses I'm going to sell, so once I sell the houses, I obviously pay off the bank. But they give me the same type of loans if I'm building a rental property. The only difference is after that construction period,

once I get these properties leased, that loan automatically rolls over into what's called a mini-term, which is a 20-year advertising long-term loan. It comes with a five-year call. So, I mean, there's caveats there that you really need to be careful of. Right. But the big picture is there are local community banks that are much easier to deal with.

They're much friendlier towards investors. And if you're looking to build a portfolio of rental property and you're bankable, you don't live on the streets or in your car, you have a decent income or you have a partner that can prove decent income and decent balance sheet. You can go out to these local community banks and get very cheap money from them. Another alternative is just go get private money. That's the other thing that people have misconceptions about. Go out and build private money relationships. Find people that want to own property long-term but don't know how

and get them to partner with you. That money is going to be more flexible than any bank. If you structure it correctly, it won't have those restrictions like a five-year call or arm. So there's a lot of options out there, right? So if you want to build a portfolio, you can go to other places other than your local Wells Fargo branch. Yeah. And one of the best places, it doesn't

matter if you're a fixer and flipper or a buyer hold, I'm always an advocate of private money. One of our best private money relationships came directly out of the Find Cash Buyers Now software that my business partner, Kent Clothier, developed. That actual private money lender also lent on our development. Not only did he lend on our acquisition of development, also lent on the vertical loan of the development. And it was all because I sent out some cash buyer letters and he came across, you know, or I'm sorry, some private lender. I'm totally sorry about that. The private lender letters and he came across and he's loaned millions and millions and millions of dollars to us. And so, you know, to me, I'm always an advocate of finding that relationship that understands your business model, understands the security of that business model, and then what's going to be in it for them, right?

What type of return are they getting? Because those are the three components that really matter is them understanding it, they understand the security, and then they understand the return. And that would be where I would end up advocating most people to be looking. However, I agree with you. I think that that's my second choice is the local banks. They typically will understand your area a lot better. They understand the value of your area a lot better

and can be oftentimes a lot more flexible and able to perform on what you're trying to get done. Absolutely. Without a question. Yeah. Well, very good. Well, you know, talking about the evolution is something that I always like talking about just because, you know, our business has evolved so much and I know yours has as well. And kind of going into next year, it sounds like for your business model, you're going into, you know, multi-unit, but not only that, you might be going into mixed use. Is that

correct? Are you going to look into next year with multi-unit and mixed use properties? Yeah, I've got a couple of projects in development that I'm just kind of meeting with architects now. We already own the land, so there's a 30 plus thousand square foot mixed use project that I'm starting to put some plans together for. And we're going to try to do some office, some co-working space, restaurant. And then on the second and third floor, it's going to be probably 20 to 25 apartments. Pretty cool project. I'm going to try to put a rooftop deck on there with event space and maybe a conference room that's going to have a clear view of the entire city.

Yeah. Pretty excited about that project. I own another piece of land, the commercial parcel I've assembled, where I'm going to try to put 20,000-25,000 square foot also mixed-use building with apartments and maybe some kind of a retail space.

I've got a couple of other projects in the works, a six, seven-unit apartment building. I'm basically scaling. I am valuing my time and effort a lot more than I did a couple years ago, which is natural for anybody that's growing their business. And so I'm focusing on less projects but bigger projects where I can build some real equity and add a lot of units to my portfolio in one deal. Absolutely. I know you have a software and I'll get to that in a second. Two things I'm not sure

I addressed yet and if I have, forgive me, but where are you investing? So people know that real estate is very active where you are. I can't tell you how many students say, oh, well, nothing can work in my area. There's too much competition. I'm sure you've heard it from your students too. It's rampant amongst people who just don't feel better. But where are you getting these deals? Where are you actively investing? I'm in Richmond, Virginia. Okay. I know it well. Yeah. Yeah. I'm in Richmond. I'm in downtown. I do most

of my deals in one neighborhood. And this is something I always tell people. It's much

better to go deep than to go wide. I focus on one area. I know it well. I probably

do more development here at this point than anybody else. And it lets me make a bigger

impact on one area as well and kind of drive prices and values and just the quality of the area up with my own efforts. But people are very good at talking themselves out of things, right? Yeah. Yeah, I hear it all the time too. Oh, there are no deals.

Nobody will lend me money. You can talk yourself out of getting out of bed if you want to every morning. It's not productive, and it's usually whatever you're telling yourself is not true anyway. No doubt about that. There's so much money to be made out there. It's so many deals. You just have to know where to look. Right.

Now, what do you think is, you know, I talked a little bit about your software, and I want to talk more about that. And before we get there, what are some of the systems and processes that you've really developed in your business right now? You know, for us, we have a lead manager, an acquisition manager, project manager. You know, we have basically a full blown team that run our business for us. I mean, myself and my business partner are, you know, very high level working on the business on expansion rather than, you know, getting the deal negotiated, finding the deal, right? So what are some systems that you've implemented that have really made a difference in your business?

So, and I remember talking to you about your business. I mean, you've obviously done a fantastic job of systematizing everything and moving yourself towards the very top big picture. My deal flow, because I'm not wholesaling and really doing flipping, my deal flow is smaller because we primarily do development. I haven't needed to put a big team in place. I have a property manager full time that just manages my portfolio. He does my leasing as well.

I'm, I've been the general contractor on most of my projects. I have very good, very good subcontractors that work for me and a good network of contractors. And obviously, you know, there's other people on my team, attorney, title company, surveyors and stuff like that. But within my own business, people that work for me full time, there's really just a property manager. And then I'm in the process now of hiring a project manager to work for me full time that's going to take over a lot of the GC responsibilities

from me. I'm pretty excited about that. I think that's going to free me up a lot. Those are really the crucial positions within my business. The day that I hired a property manager and a leasing agent was huge, huge. But that freed me up from that side of the business and allowed me to do just so much more important work like deal sourcing and development. Yeah, you're generating activities.

You're RGAs. Exactly, exactly. And I was doing that stuff myself for far too long. So that was a big step. So now hiring a project manager will be the next key hire within my business. In terms of deal sourcing, I don't have nor do I really need an acquisitions manager. I source a lot of my deals either from other wholesalers or tax auctions. Occasionally something might pop up on MLS,

but really not very, very, very rarely. So my deal sourcing, you know, if I can buy deals from wholesalers exclusively, I would do that all day long. I would much rather pay a wholesaler a good chunk of money as long as the deal works for me than have to go out and and do my own marketing so that that that's really been the source of of most of my deals of either auctions or or deals that wholesalers bring me or or just just referrals i mean i again i i i'm known within

my market and and sometimes deals come across my desk because I'm known as the guy that is active in this market. Absolutely. And so let's talk a little bit about your software. It's something that I know has done very, very well for our students. I know we cross-promoted you and it's done very, very well. So tell us a little bit about your software, where to find your software, and really where to find you so that if people have more questions for Danielle, they can reach you. Sure.

Well, so I have a couple of different software programs, but, I mean, our biggest and most popular by far is called Rehab Valuator. And the software I developed originally for my own business, and basically what it lets you do is analysis on your deal. It helps you figure out what to pay for a rehab property. If you're a wholesaler, you can very quickly put together professional-looking marketing materials to sell your deal to your buyers. You click a few buttons. The one thing that I hate is when wholesalers call me and just say, hey, here's an address, here's the price, go look at it. So our software helps you click a few buttons, and you have a professional marketing flyer put together that actually shows your buyer after

repair value, how much in repairs the property needs, what their projected profit margin will be, pictures of the house, some comps, a rehab budget if you want to put one together, et cetera, et cetera. It's a very easy but very professional way of communicating and marketing your deals to your buyer's list and then using that marketing your deals to your buyers list and then using that marketing to build your buyers list further. And then the third major thing that the software does is it does the same thing for private money.

It puts together private funding requests. So if you're brand new in this business, you go into the software, you enter a couple of key points about the deal, and it spits out a professional funding presentation that you can hand to private lenders, hard money lenders. We use it to send to banks as well. And same thing, it communicates to your potential lender specifically what's in the deal for them, why they should do the deal.

Here's the loan to value. Here's how much you're going to earn off interest. Here's how much you will earn off points. Here's a profit split if you decide to throw in a profit split in there. Here's exactly how much you will earn. Here's the timeline of the deal. Here's where your risk lies. Here's some pictures.

Here's some comparable sales. And it basically, it's been responsible for our clients raising millions and millions of dollars in private money. I mean, I have testimonials from people that say, hey, I send this to somebody that we've never done business with before, and now they're funding free deals for me. That's huge. And so I'm going to tell you now with the thousands of listeners that I have on here, they're going to for sure want to know where to find that. So where's the best place for them to go, you know, contact you or find the rehab evaluator? Well, so we have a free version of the software that we give away. There's no strings attached.

It's a fully functional software that you can get for free. It lets you do all the number crunching. It just doesn't let you do the marketing component of it. That's a paid feature. But if you go to rehabvaluator.com, R-E-H-A-B-V-A-L-U-A-T-O-R, rehabvaluator, no E,.com, you can sign up for the free software.

And it's a great program. And along with the free software, it provides full detailed video tutorials, case studies, really great investing content that people can learn from. That's awesome. Yeah. I think everyone should, if you're listening right now, you need to go get that. Even if you're focusing on wholesaling right now, you're going to come across a deal that you're going to want to find private lenders. You're going to want to know if you and get this software because I know it's going to be

great for everyone on this call. It doesn't matter where in business you are. Anything you want to leave these listeners with, Daniel? This has been a great time. I know you're a busy man and you've given great knowledge today. Is there anything you can leave these guys with? You know, I would just say they're obviously doing the right thing by listening to your podcast. You have a lot of great content and great information, and the one thing that I usually tell people is, and that's the biggest problem that I see, is that it's great to get educated,

but you've got to go out there and pull the trigger on some stuff. I see too many people listen to podcasts and buy courses and listen to webinars, and that's great. I'm a firm, firm, firm, firm believer in education, but education without implementation is useless, and I see that happen just way too many with too many people and then it's almost like the more educated they get the more paralyzed they get right so you know you've got to go out and implement and you'll learn more by doing your first deal than you will about

hearing about 20 deals from me yep paralysis by Paralysis by analysis. They do too much thinking and they never take any action. And I'm a huge advocator. Just go out and take action. Couldn't agree more with you. Listen, man, I really appreciate your time on this call here

at the Science Flipping Podcast. Thank you all for showing back up again. It's rehabvaluator.com, correct, Daniel? Correct, yeah, rehabvaluator.com. You guys need it. Go get it. It's absolutely free. Obviously, if you want to upgrade, you can, but you need that in your business.

And again, if you need to grab my book and not pay for it, instead of going to Amazon, go to thescienceofflipping.com, download the book for absolutely free. It's how we got started, how we overcame the obstacles, great content in there. So thank you guys again for listening, and we will see you on the next podcast, The Science of Flipping. Peace.