The Science of Flipping - Short Term Rentals and Dynamic Investing | Shawn Moore

Episode Date: January 5, 2023

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Yo, yo, what is up, everybody? Welcome back to the Science of Flipping podcast. As always, I am your host. And as always, our number one sponsor, MinutePages.com, will get you the best professional real estate investing specific website at $97 a month. You need credibility, you need influence, and you need authority. go to minutepages.com. All right, guys, welcome back. I have a very special guest on this episode. This is a guy that I swear we are either brothers cut from the same cloth, share family members. We look alike. He's better looking because he has a cowboy hat. But this guy believes in what I believe in, in the real estate investing space. Mr. Sean Moore is here. What is up, brother?

Awesome, Justin. Appreciate you having me, man. Really excited to chat with you today. Right on. Well, I tell that I say, I gave you that intro real quickly because I firmly believe people need to be dynamic real estate investors. And you and I were just kind of talking about how you, just like me, kind of started in the traditional way and you started wholes, and then that led into flipping. And then this has now led into a pretty prolific rental game that you have going on.

And I'm a firm believer on this podcast that I call it dynamic investing. Because I'm tired of people just becoming wholesalers, and they only do wholesaling, and it's all they know. And they think they need money to flip, and they think they need money to buy and hold. And you and I both know that that is not true, dude. So let's kind of dive into your story, brother, if you want to let people know what I already know, but just a little bit more about you. Yeah, let's dive in. And I love that you call it dynamic investing with real estate there, because I always tell people the same thing. We focus on a very specific niche at this stage in

our game with short-term rentals. But I tell people all the time, I love real estate, right? There's so many great assets out there. Every asset class has its own pros and cons. And when you can really start to stack assets together and use them for different things in different vehicles, it can be really, really fun. And so it's really fun to chat with you and other people that have that same mindset of, hey, listen, there's not an end-all be-all like, oh, I have to do multifamily. I have to do long-term rentals. I have to do wholesaler flipping. Real estate's a phenomenal vehicle to build wealth, by far and away, in my opinion, the best vehicle to build wealth for the average person in America. Right. And so I think we share that in common. And I,

you know, I, we were talking before I've got a little, a little more gray hair than I like to admit. And in my beard and less hair on my head than I like you and I like to take the cow. That's why I wear the cowboy hat. We've got the, we got telling your brother, we're, we're blood brothers somewhere down the line. I know it. Right. It's so, but you know, we've been, I've been doing this for 22 years full time. And, you know, that's a, that's a long run and a lot of different asset classes. And we really started off like a lot of people where we're, you know, one of the things that you've heard, I've heard anybody that's been in this game long enough has heard is one of the biggest challenges that we think before we get into real estate is, well, I don't have enough money or money's the challenge,

right? And early on, we learned that money's never the challenge. A good deal will always find money, period. It doesn't matter what, when you find a good deal, you have a good deal, there will be money there. And I learned that lesson was I loved reading back when you would go to the bookstores, Barnes and Noble, and you know, sit in Barnes and Noble, we read all the real estate books and investing books. And I was just out of college. And I got this book by a guy named Peter Conti. And, and so in he had a lease option book, and I went to one of his weekend seminars and read through the book and followed it step by step. And all of a sudden I'm in Denver. I mean, I had this sales job in downtown Denver

and found this house. I went through at the time, but it was back then you had newspapers and you circle the classified ads and you'd call the people in the classified ads and going through that route. And I had this lady answer me and said, yeah, come check out my house, Sean. And so I went and checked out her house. And it was one of those houses that you just, you, you, if you've done it long enough, you walked into these houses, you can't even breathe there. They smell so bad. You're like, how is somebody living here? It was just this horrible house. And in a nice area though, in a, in a, in an up and coming downtown area of Denver. And she had probably a hundred hats, a hundred cats. I tell her that it's

the cat lady house. And ultimately, I go through this script that Peter laid out. And sure enough, this lady's like, yeah, I'll do it. And I'm thinking, okay, awesome. Well, I really kind of got to like this lady. And then I left feeling horrible about myself thinking, shit, I can't buy this house. I don't have $600,000 to buy this house. What do I do now? I call, I'm trying to find my notes from the seminar. I call Peter up and I probably wasn't supposed to call him up. And I'm like, Hey, I can't, I followed your steps, but I don't know what to do now. Nothing in your book shows me how to cancel a contract. Like, I don't know what to do to cancel it. Like, help me to cancel it. He said, why would you cancel it? And I said, I can't buy it. He said, somebody will buy it, right? And his wasn't a course on wholesaling. He said,

Sean, if you can't buy it, from what you're telling me, it sounds like a good deal. Let me look at it. Peel back a few layers of the onion. And he said, I've got an investor that will buy this, right? And, and I had a, he called one guy up and at the time the guy was on the other end of the line. I'm sitting there listening to the conversation. He said, can you meet the guy at this bank? And I said, yeah, bring the contract. And so I run down to meet the guy at the bank. He gives me this check for $19,000 for this contract, a concept that I completely didn't understand at the time. I'm like, what the hell is going on? This is like, that's illegal, right? Like, this is like, I'm gonna go to jail or something. Because this is like, I made $31,000 in my salary job. And I made 19. I have a check for $19,000 in my hand. That's a big deal at the time. Yeah. And I called my wife up. I'm like, what do you think? Should I

cash it? She's like, do you are you gonna get in trouble? I'm like, what do you think? Should I cash it? She's like, are you going to get in trouble? And I'm like, I don't think so. And so ultimately that's what started me off in real estate though. I ended up, I ended up wholesaling that first deal. And it's funny how things will happen. And ultimately I quit my job that next day. And that was 22 years ago now. And we've been, you know, we, we ended up, that was actually the only deal I wholesaled, took that money, went back to Utah where I live, where our hometown was and started buying cheap homes and fixing them up and flipping them. And we did that for six years and then ultimately ran down this road. But we were talking before we hit play and record that we were at that time, I said, start building up a fairly what I thought

was a really good fix and flip business in Utah in the markets that I was in. And really pretty cocky at the time, like thinking I was pretty hot shit and sticking my chest out, I would show up to real estate investment club meetings, not because I wanted to network because I wanted to show off at the time, right? I'm like, you know, early 20s. And, and this one meeting, this guy came to me and put his arm around me, his name is George. And he said, Sean, you got to, you got to cool down, man, you got to bring the ego down a couple notches or 10. And he said, you keep referring yourself as this investor. And but you're not an investor, you you've got a job fixing and flipping homes. Do you own anything? Have you bought anything or be held anything? Do you have any passive income coming in until you have some passive income coming in? Don't refer to yourself as

an investor. And at the time, George really hurt my feelings. My ego was like, I was like, man, George, you're, you're, you know, get out of here. I'm not, you know, I'm not listening to it. Right. But I went home and I talked to Teresa. I'm like, man, do you think he's right? He might be right. And so I started at least, and that's to your point of dynamic real estate investing is understanding the different asset classes and what we can use them for. And so I started taking the money,

some of the money I was making from my fix and flip business. I didn't stop fixing and flipping, but I took some of that earned money from that. And I started buying passive investments and passive income and really started to learn different asset classes along the way. And we've done a lot of those and led us to what we're doing today with short-term rentals. But that's all kind of a long story to the short start of everything. But I think it goes right to your point of there's not one end all be all. A lot of times there's vehicles that help us go from one to the next and we can stack them and they can help us reach our

ultimate goals. Well, and I think a lot of people, you know, again, I think there's two misconceptions to fix and flip. You need to have money. Incorrect. No. To buy and hold, you need to have money incorrect and that misconception leads people to only wholesaling because they don't know like i have a whole private money course in my student center right yeah yeah for whatever reason no one watches it i show them how i've raised tens and tens of millions of dollars, but for whatever reason, they don't believe they can do it. So they just don't go do it. Regardless of, I literally have like 24 videos on this thing, right? And I think if we, as a community of people, educators, yourself and myself, can tell people, how many short-term rentals do you have now?

Right now, our collective Odyssey portfolio is over 1000 rentals we bought, I personally have over the years bottom of 600 homes, I usually keep my personal portfolio around 10 properties. So we keep 10 really high producing properties, but I have 10 properties that produce over $500,000 in income in my pocket, almost a million dollars in gross revenue, but in our pocket. So they're really high producing types of assets. And so I usually keep around 10 that just the, cause I like to use them. I call them lifestyle assets. So I keep it, I keep 10 properties in markets that we'd like to go use personally that are really high producing, but like our

Vodacy portfolio is over a thousand properties. And you don't have to give me exact numbers, but you've been done this 22 years now. Yeah. I've done it 15. And I would, I would guess that you to go get your startup rentals, you didn't have 500 grand sitting in your bank to go buy these things. No, no. And this is, that's a great point. When I just, you know, that conversation I had with George, George put his arm a great point. When I just, you know, that conversation I had with George, George put his arm around me and was like, Hey, you know, you're, you're not a real investor until you do this. And so I kind of took it as a challenge. Okay. I'm going to go do this in two years,

about 52 long-term rentals in two years. I, I didn't have, I didn't, it wasn't like I had all this money sitting around to do it when you're resourceful, I always tell people there's the biggest, you know, the eighth wonder of the world is leverage. You know, you've got, when you can figure out how to leverage time, money, and knowledge, but really what the critical part is, is how can you leverage other people's time, money, and knowledge and to help you really compound and accelerate your progress. And even to your point, you've got this great training on private money. You've raised tens of millions of dollars with it. How many people go through it? There's a lot of resources at the tips of all of our fingertips and a lot of people willing to help. But we have to take that step forward and actually do it.

And so if you are resourceful and you go figure out how to leverage time, money, and knowledge, the sky's the limit. And you don't have to have a whole bunch of any of those three things. That's it. And so I think that's where you and I connect so heavily is because you can create what you want to create. And I love wholesaling. I still wholesale.

I think it's very fast income. There's the least amount of risk possible. Right. And so I really encourage it, especially in a market shift. Right now. I'm actively buying three rentals right now. One's a duplex and the other two are single family homes. One, I'm doing seller financing because I pitched the seller like, hey, I can't get anywhere close to the number you want, but I could probably get a lot closer if you are the bank versus going to a bank. He's like, yeah, these interest rates are probably killing you right now, right? Yes, they are, sir. Well, are you open to it? He's like, I think I could be open to that. Well, great. Well, that's how I'm

buying this duplex is because he was able to realize the economy is not what it used to be bank the lending is 7.5% versus 5%. So I'm being able to structure those type of things. But again, none of my own money is needed in that deal. Yeah. So some of it is just an understanding of where you're at and what assets you have is never, it's always just a lack of resourcefulness or ideas, right? Like if you can't come up with the creative idea, then you won't be able to get, you won't pitch it. Yeah. And so the seller can't say yes to that. And if you've never done it, it's okay. Like, you don't, if like, sometimes we, we, you know, sometimes I like, I, I pay a small fortune to be

surrounded by other people with coaching and everything else to what they call, you know, what would be obvious to them, an obvious solution to them that they've done many, many times. I'm willing to pay for it to work because it's not obvious to me, right? That's right. We're understanding the market, just like you're saying right now. Seller financing deals were a lot tougher to do the last couple of years. Well, now you can take some of this really like most people that are in the real estate game. If you talk to somebody who's actually been investing for a while and, and I'll ask you this, but I don't know many people that are not buying right now. And there's a lot of people that are in the news and everything else saying, man, this is, it's, it's risky. Don't do things right now. There's a lot of great opportunities right now. And one of

those big opportunities is the terms you're going to get because the sellers are scared to death as well. They're like, maybe I missed the top. Maybe I missed the boat. Use that to your advantage and say, yeah, you're right. The rates are going up. A lot fewer buyers. That's how the downward pressure on demand. There's not a lot of buyers out there. I love your property. I'd love to make this work. Can you help me make it work too? So it works for both of us. Those are really good opportunities right now out there that you, that a lot of people aren't trying to take advantage of. Yeah. Yeah, no. And they should, right. But some of these, they just don't know how to create those, but the market has changed. Right. And so absolutely my model has to be able to, you know, I've done this 15, you're 22.

The reason why I believe we're both still here is because we've been able to adapt in times that need you to adapt, right? Yes. And this is one of those times, I believe, in 2022 and going into 2023 will be a point that will wash out a lot of people that basically just had the wind at their back. They were making money without actually knowing what they were doing. And it was because the wind was at their back and the economy was just so good. Everyone made money, right? This is where the rubber meets the road, right? Even my business,

I'm pivoting and having to create the new avenue that even my team doesn't. They're like, we've never had to do this. I'm like, yeah, well, this is what happens when the wind's not at our back. We have to go into the trenches, put our helmet on, right? And the whole thing. But it's still a great team to buy and hold. I'm actively buying and holding when people are talking about how high interest rates are. Because it's still a good deal is a good deal. Right? If it underwrites underwrites, right? Interest rates, that's only one factor in the numbers where you're running your numbers and your deal, if it cash flows, and it pays for itself,

or somebody else is paying for it. If you didn't, if you took everything out, like I, I know that you've spoken on a number of stages, I've spoken on a number of stages over the years. And anytime I asked the question of, would if I could hand you a property that you own, that somebody else pays for, even if you didn't make a ton of cashflow from it, but you owned it and somebody else is paying it down, would you take it? They all say yes. Right. And those are, I mean, that's not even a great deal that we look for. Like we're looking for really cash flowing properties, but if I pay 10% interest or 2% interest, if I'm making an extra $1,000 a month and somebody else is paying down

a property for me, do I really care? It's irrelevant, right? It doesn't really matter. I bought a property a year ago that somebody's like, and I hear people say this to me all the time. I'm not going to buy it from that person because they, you know, they bought it for 400 and I'm buying it for 800. I'm like, does the deal make sense for you at 800? If it does, then that's irrelevant what they bought it for. Right. And I did the exact same thing. I bought a property. The guy bought it for 450, eight months later, I gave him 805 for it, but it works for me. It works for my portfolio. We it's a high, I mean, I make over six figures a year passively from that property, but he almost doubled his money in eight months. In a short-term rental? In a short-term rental, yeah. Let's talk

about your short-term rental. I think this is a hot topic. I don't have one and I've wanted one for a while. I have my own feelings on it now versus what it was a year ago. But what is your short-term model? Is it the higher end model and higher producing revenue? Or is it the single family $200,000 home in the right area? That's a great question. I like all of the above. And so, but now, but they have to underwrite, right? There's a lot of people that say, okay, I'm only going after the luxury or the bigger properties because of the, the dollar amounts are bigger. I look for maximizing my ROI. If I can buy, like we've bought some, I'm making an offer right now on a property that's like 250 in green Bay, Wisconsin.

It's not a hot vacation rental market, but that property is going to get me almost a 75% return on my investment cash on cash return. That's a huge cash on cash return, right? And so that it's a high, it's a really highly producing property, yet the dollars that I'm going to make on that property in my pocket are not going to be as much as I would make on my $2 million property that might have a lower ROI, but a higher dollar amount, right? Like I might make $200,000 on one property, the other one's making 90, but my ROI on that 91 is a lot higher. And so I really like to maximize my ROI because then I'm obviously leveraging my money better, right? My leverage, I'm trying to get the highest leverage possible when I buy properties. Many times right now, specifically in this market we're going into,

they are those secondary markets, the non-traditional vacation markets. There's a lot of opportunities with short-term rentals around university towns, around major medical centers, some of that stuff. A lot of people forget that there's a big opportunity in those types of areas. And some of them are secondary type of college towns. Like I have one of my members in our group who bought a little duplex. It was like $130,000 duplex in a little small town in Nebraska that has a junior college. It's not even a big college town, but there's no good hotels. There's, I mean, because it's a small little town in Nebraska, there's nowhere for the parents or anybody to come in and stay. And she has booked solid and kills it on $130,000

acquisition. We also have some of those members that buy those three to $5 million beachfront homes in some of the best beach communities and they do well, but their return on investment is actually lower on those types of properties. Sure. There's always an argument made where my mind is going. I think there are, and you know, more than me, I don't have one, right? I have only traditional long-term rentals. And that's even the three that I'm currently buying are going to be long-term rentals. Do you think there's more restrictions coming down the pipe for these strs i mean that's what i'm seeing hearing reading and so i've i've kind of taken my personally my desire to pretty heavily get into the game i'm kind of like wow let me kind of

see this wash out a little yeah 100 like this year we've seen sweeping regulations hit the board. And now, I actually think it's a really good thing. One, it shows that this is becoming a mainstream asset class. It's saying, okay, municipalities, governing bodies are taking this seriously. Okay, this is here to stay as an asset class. The same as I can't go build an apartment complex on any corner in any, in any city, right. I have to have the zoning right for it. I have to be in the, in the right density areas to do certain, like every major asset class in real estate has zoning around it. Short-term rentals are starting to see that. And we're starting to see that, okay, we like him here. We don't like him here.

And so part of what we've been teaching and I've been teaching this for the last four or five years is I only buy in areas that have a definite yes, and I can get the licensing and I can get the permits required because it's really risky to buy in areas. Like there's, there's areas that have no's and there's areas that have yeses. And then there's those gray areas, those gray areas, the last few years was pretty wide. It's narrowing now. The problem that a lot of people got is they're buying in those gray areas and they feel like the rules are changing. They're not really, they didn't go from a yes to a no. That doesn't happen. What happens is they go from a, we haven't decided yet to a no. And now all of a sudden you're in trouble

because you bought a property in that area. So we've always had the mindset of go to areas that you can, that they're zoned, licensed and permitted for short-term rentals. And if they're not, you have to know that that's a risk that you're going to take. And those regulations are going to keep coming. I truly believe that as this has become very mainstream and this asset class is growing up and because of that, most municipalities are starting to address the issue. And so we have to, you know, you, we have to fall in line, just like I said, with any other real estate asset class. 100%. And, you know, I don't know if it's worth, I think it would probably go, I was kind of starting to think of like, when you're buying and starting to formulate and

everything for everybody. And maybe the best way to do that is if you're interested in short-term rentals, hit up Sean. Where do you want everyone to follow you? Whether it's Instagram or where would you like everyone to go? Yeah, go check us out at bodyssey.com. V-O-D-Y-S-S-E-Y.com.

That has handles to all of our social platforms. We've got some free trainings on there. I've got a free book on, it's called What the Hell is a Lifestyle Asset? You can buy it on Amazon, but if you go to the website, you can get it for free, download a copy of it.

So that'll give you a lot of information on short-term rentals, kind of our view of this world, kind of our philosophy. We definitely have the ownership philosophy. We're interested in buying these properties. So there's a lot of short-term rental operators out there talk about arbitrage or co-hosting. So we have a little bit different mindset because we're buying them as a, as a long-term investment. So you'll go check it out.

Used to have a decent Instagram account. We had about 50,000 followers and we got hacked in it. Somebody took it over about two months ago and I haven't been able to get it back. So, Oh no. Yeah. It's crazy. We've got, yeah, we've been on there forever. Um, they said I was impersonating somebody else and they have not been able to, yeah, maybe they said you're, you're not Sean Moore. I'm like, well, I mean, I am, but, uh, we've had this for a while. Yes. I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah. So we're at, so don't, you probably won't find us on Instagram just yet, but hopefully we'll get it back soon.

Well, everyone go there because I just don't want to have to get in the weeds and I'm sure that everyone will have a bunch of questions. I've got a, I've got a podcast that's called vacation rental revolution. We've got a YouTube channel, all that kind of stuff. So go check that stuff out because they can, there's a lot of, there's a lot of information on short-term rentals. And because I always tell people in Justin Justin, you're saying, you know there's obvious cons to short-term rentals as well.

It's like there's a lot of investors that I talk to, they're like, I've been hesitating to get into it because there's a lot of moving parts. There's a lot of things going on. I don't know that I want to manage these things. And so there's our view, you have to be aware of that. If you're going to get into this game, you got to be aware of the good and the bad, right? They are, they can be very high producing, but depending on how you set them up and structure them, they can turn into a second job really quickly. And that's not what a lot of investors are looking for. So make sure that you walk into the game with your

eyes wide open. Yeah. And then I, lastly, to kind of wrap it up, where do we see the real estate game, residential primarily going, interest rates? How are you looking into 2023? territory for us because it's a really weird game right now because inventory levels are still really low. That gap between supply and demand is still really wide. And I don't see it catching up. In fact, I think it's making it worse because there's a lot of home sellers that would be trade-up buyers that are like, I'm not selling my house that I have a 3% mortgage on to go buy a six and a half or seven, right? So unless the builders can build us out of the inventory problem, they're not going to be able to. I don't see home prices really dropping like off the cliff. I think you've got certain regional areas that are going to have some dips, but I think you're probably five to 8% dips, if I had to guess. I also think that we're probably going to

see rates continue to rise until probably through the first quarter of next year. But then I think that you're the minute we start to see inflation kind of come under control. I think they're going to I think there will be a quick reversal and, you know, probably not getting back to where we were. But I think that we'll we'll see some softening back up in the rates coming back down to our favor. But right now, while they're going up, and like we talked about before, use that to your advantage negotiating deals. Use that to your advantage when you're talking to some sellers and getting some seller financing, things like that, because they're open to those conversations right now. They tell you from experience. And you just shared your story as well. There's a lot of

sellers that are freaking out about this market, thinking that they missed the boat, thinking that they're not going to be able to sell. I don't think that's the case. Personally, I think that it's still going to be not the buyers, not the seller's market that we've had in the past couple years, the buying friends that we had the last couple years, but inventory levels, until inventory levels can come up and meet demand, it's going to be, I mean, I don't see prices coming down. I don't know what your thoughts are on that. No, you know, it's funny because I'm still very active in the active business, which is wholesaling and flipping, right? We can call rentals passive, but we all know it's not exactly passive. Not exactly passive. Yeah. Right. But you know, we're making offers

every day. We're doing a bunch of marketing and we're seeing a decrease in prices. That is for sure. But just to your point, there's still a lack of inventory. So it's only going to go so far because people still want homes to buy. Right. I missed out on a deal yesterday because I was flying. I was on a plane. I couldn't get my wire earnest money wire in. My manager was doing something I forget. And like someone came up and scooped the deal because it was a good deal. Right. listed on the MLS it wasn't directed it was on the MLS good numbers great rental um so it's still a buyer's market but the key to me saying that is buyers are still there I think

there's a lot of people right now think that the buyers like ran for the hills. No, they didn't. They may be a little more conservative on their numbers, but they're very much there. And a good deal is going to be a good deal. And I think this for sure, whether short-term rentals, long-term rentals, wholesale flipping, you're in a marketing game. The more you can market and the more opportunity you give yourself, the more you can maximize that opportunity, regardless of the asset class you give yourself, the more you can maximize that opportunity. Absolutely.

Regardless of the asset class you want to do, whether it's a wholesale or a flip long-term or short-term rental. So if you stay in that, I believe you're going to be just fine. I just know there's a lot of people that probably are over-leveraged and scared and spending too much on marketing without getting the numbers they need. And I think it's getting a little tricky in our investor space for some, for others, they're going to get it. They realize if you just keep your head down, keep, you know, with your fortitude, you're going to work out just fine. But I would tell everybody short-term or long-term rentals, like you need it. I don't care if it's one a year, one. Yeah. Just start building it. Yep. Start building a portfolio of something you own for the long-term for sure. And if the game's not meant to always be easy either, the wind is

not always meant to be at our backs, right? And where are we shifting around? Absolutely. And to your point, the people that are, if you were relying on the market to bail you out and just because, you know, Hey, listen, I'm not going to learn the game, I'm just going to ride this wave. Well, eventually, every wave goes out, right? And so, so that's, take some responsibility, look in the mirror, if you're just riding a wave, sometimes it's coming in, sometimes it's going out, and you're just along for the ride. If you're really wanting to be in the game, you learn how to play the game, to your point, it's a marketing game, right? Putting yourself yourself in positions whether you're competing with 50 people or two or three people i don't care what type of a market is a good deal

is going to have competition on it you're going to be competing with other people and so and so it understand that that's what it is and go roll up your sleeves and have fun with it and make it happen dude i couldn't agree with you more. Couldn't agree. Well, dude, really appreciate you being on here. I want you to reiterate where everyone bodicey.com is that just go to bodicey.com V O D Y S S E Y. So they'll, they'll find everything they need there. That is incredible, dude. Thank you for spending some time. I know you dropped a ton of knowledge here. Uh, again, we're, we're like brothers from another mother, dude. Love it, man. I appreciate you having me on, Justin. Of course, dude. And that is all, guys. Hopefully, this dropped a lot

of value. Sean and I both agree, you need to be buying. It doesn't matter if it's one or 10 a year or more. Make sure you're making a lot of money by flipping and wholesaling and take that money and put it into rentals. Appreciate you, dude. And that is the wrap for this episode. See you guys. Cheers.