The Science of Flipping - Your Title Company Is Killing Your Deals, Here's Why | Ash Selle

Episode Date: September 23, 2026

Most real estate investors have had a deal fall apart at the title company  not because the deal was bad, but because the title company did not know how to handle it. In this episode of The M.O.R.E. Show, Justin Colby sits down with Ash Selle, founder of Phoenix Closing and a 25-year title and escrow veteran who has handled tens of thousands of transactions across 7 states. Ash Selle breaks down exactly how investor-friendly title works, how to close hairy and complicated deals that other title companies won't touch, what really happens inside a title company when your deal goes sideways, and why subject-to deals, double closings, probate, and foreclosure transactions require a specialist not a generalist. KEY TOPICS COVERED: What an investor-friendly title company actually does differently from a traditional one How to close subject-to deals, double closings, probate, and foreclosure transactions correctly Why buyers are backing out last minute right now — and what title companies are seeing on the front lines The biggest mistakes real estate investors make when working with title and escrow How to find and work with a title company that will fight to get your deal across the finish line What sellers in distress foreclosure, divorce, death, prison, need from a title team ️ Key Moments 00:01 — Introduction: Ash Selle  founder of Phoenix Closing 00:23 — 25 years in title and escrow tens of thousands of transactions 00:45 — Phoenix Closing explained investor-friendly title in 7 states 01:00 — How to reach Ash Selle: phoenixclosing.co and [phone] 01:45 — What is happening in the real estate market right now from the title side 02:08 — Why buyers are backing out last minute and getting cold feet 03:47 — Distressed sellers: foreclosure, divorce, prison, probate, and death 04:09 — Interest rates why nobody on the front lines is complaining about them 07:00 — Subject-to deals explained and how to close them correctly 12:00 — Double closings what they are and how investor-friendly title handles them 18:00 — Probate and estate sales what makes these transactions complicated 22:00 — What title companies see that investors never know about 26:00 — How to be a better investor when working with your title team 29:07 — Ash Selle's advice: be kind title coordinators have multiple files 29:40 — Where to find Ash Selle and Phoenix Closing Connect with Ash Selle: Website: phoenixclosing.co Phone: [phone] Facebook: Phoenix Closing Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

I mean, there was so much going on here. Everyone got sued. Everyone. A lot of wholesalers rush, rush, rush, they want the money. I get it. You know, I'm all about helping investors make money. Totally get it. But when you rush, there's a lot of red flags there.

What had happened is they didn't make the auction. The money got rejected. The property went to sheriff's sale. Basically, all parties were screwed in this transaction. And we're talking several wholesalers. We're talking the end buyer. She lost her money because she sent it on to re-enlist. estate something and never got reinstated. The seller gave a deed to someone and the property went

into foreclosure. What is up? What is up? The Moore Show family, welcome back to maximizing opportunities in real estate. My guest today has 25 plus years in the space of title and escrow. And she knows exactly how to take those complicated deals, the ones that are super challenging, super hairy, and get the deal across the finish line. She has Phoenix closing. She is the founder of Phoenix closing. Ashley Selly is here. How are you, Ash? I'm awesome. How are you, Justin? I'm super great. I'm super excited about this. As someone who's done thousands of transactions myself, you, you've usurped me. I mean, you're tens of thousands of transactions in this multi-decade career. Correct. The real estate space is changing real time. You own Phoenix closing, right? And first and foremost, where can everyone go?

to get a hold of you and learn a little bit about your title company or get in contact with some of your representatives? Sure. Our website or web address is phoenixclosingcode.com. We can also be reached through Instagram, Facebook, any of those platforms. I do love to speak to my clients one-on-one when we are just meeting and bringing in potential clients. So my cell phone number is 612248, 6108. And we have a great team.

Everyone's really skilled at investor-friendly transactions and traditional transactions throughout a lot of the U.S. That's awesome. Okay. So phoenixclosingco.com. Correct. I love that. Now, the real estate market is changing. We're all fighting tooth and nail to get deals and a lot of these deals now.

become deals because they're hairy because it takes kind of this expertise. I've done this now 20 years. You've done it 20 plus years. You know, the four-year investor a lot of times doesn't know how to configure those deals. What are you seeing right now in the state of uncertainty that is coming up? Sure. The market has certainly shifted. I spoke to a couple clients actually to ask them kind of what they've been experiencing.

And they all have, you know, it's different realities for a lot of the sellers. They all use different types of, excuse me, they all are seasoned investors and they all use different types of models for finding properties and, you know, getting deals to contract. But they all agreed that with the market shift, it's just so much uncertainty with the buyers. They're comparing a lot of stuff to like everything. things should be so perfect and wonderful compared to like a lot of social media posts and TikToks and things like that. So it's getting a little harder to move some of the properties that they're flipping and stuff for single family homes. We're also finding that sellers need to

kind of adjust their expectations. It's not the same market that it used to be. And the agents also need to influence and make these sellers understand. So we're all kind of just dealing with a weird market. One thing I found is nobody mentioned interest rates. Not one person complained about that, which I found really surprising. We're running into a lot of buyers backing out last minute, getting cold feet. But a majority of what we're doing, what we're really busy with and keeps us consistently busy year to year, which hasn't changed so much, is helping those that are in distress. So people that have lost, they're losing their homes, they're going through divorces,

they're going to prison, someone's deceased, all of those types of things. So. You know, you mentioned interest rates really quick, and you're saying that, you know, when you talk to some of your highest producing clients, now you're in seven states, correct? Correct. We're based out of the Twin Cities, but we are in seven states. So that would be Arizona, Iowa, North Dakota, Florida, Michigan's been a hot one for us, North Dakota, Wisconsin, and of course, Minnesota. Okay.

And then you have plans to even go beyond that? Absolutely. A lot of the Midwest, I would say, in Southwest for sure, that aren't attorney kind of led states. They're a little easier, especially for investors. So we're definitely going to be expanding, and we're going to expand pretty quick. I used to handle up to 20 states with previous companies. So we're already familiar with what needs to happen and, you know, how it's different from other markets, things like that in those states. But definitely really aiming for Arizona right now.

I just feel like that would be a really awesome market. there's not a lot of competition for an investor-friendly title company or closing company. There's a huge need for it based on the groups that I'm a part of down there. So I really want to jump in that market. Florida also, but also because these seasons are opposite for this market. So when it's busy here, it's slow down there when it's hot. Yeah. And high spurs.

Yeah. Yep. So you mentioned about, you know, the highest producers that you're talking to, you know, what are they seeing? And you said no one's really mentioning interest rates. But you were also in the same breath, you said, you know, buyers are getting cold feet. They're backing out. Right. After 20 years, I just feel like that is actually because of the interest rates because they're trying to figure out, can I really afford this home?

Would you agree? You know, and that's why I was so surprised by that. That wasn't a huge thing for any of them. But what we're finding is, I don't know, maybe the investors think that's not the issue because they're canceling during, like, inspection periods or maybe they think they're shopping for a different property. Maybe the investors aren't being realistic, honestly. I'm not sure. But we are having trouble getting a lot of the traditional buyers to the closing table. Now, when you deal with some of the hairier deals, is that more the investor or is the buyer, not the traditional buyer you're dealing with some.

someone who's looking to come in and fix and flip it or, you know, turn the property around. Correct. And wholesalers, lots of wholesalers. So you work at wholesalers, fix and flips, subject to wrap deals, you know, as creative as it gets. This is your sweet spot. So that is my sweet spot. That's where I wanted to focus on.

That was what I decided over a decade ago. I wanted that to be my niche market because there is a huge need for it. and there's not a lot of competition. So it was a smart move. We're consistently busy, no matter the season. And I really just like the challenges. I honestly would be terribly bored if all I had to do was handle traditional transactions. Although I love it when, you know, there's a first time home buyer and we can celebrate.

That's always nice. I mean, I love it when there's a transaction where everybody's not deceased. Right. It's helpful. So, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's an easier is easier, right? Yeah, easier is easier. And I don't know, my brain just the way it works, I just have to stick with the more complex transactions.

And I get a lot out of just helping, you know, people, investors that treat sellers with dignity, you know, and have integrity. They're super transparent. It makes us feel good. Every seller that comes to the table, no matter what they're dealing with, how it does. detrimental it is and who they lost, they still leave happy. And that's really an important thing for me and my team. And we all have that same mission. Are you seeing a lot of bad actors in the space?

I've been in the education space for 15 years. And, you know, I feel as if now there's more bad actors than ever in the investing space. It's terrible. And I know that they're going to cause a lot of new regulations. throughout the country for things, especially when we talk about like these sub twos, things like that. I mean, I have told many clients that I would not work with them going forward if I see any red flags. I would rather be transparent, be honest, do the right thing versus money. It's not the transactional part of it for me. It's keeping up with our company culture, our mission. We are not,

with bad actors and they're everywhere. They honestly, and some of them don't intend to be bad actors, but they're hearing a lot from like gurus online and this and that, like, oh, you can do everything with zero dollars. It's like, okay, but what about the seller, you know? Yeah. And there's people that, you know, won't submit earnest money or they'll totally not be transparent about the transaction and I'm doing a, and a, I'm doing an assignment and then I'm doing a double closing and a triple closing all in the same deal.

And you got all these wholesalers wanting a piece of it. And it's like if there's trans, I don't care how much money everybody makes, just that you're all transparent. Because when that seller gets to the closing table, they're confused, they're concerned. They don't trust anybody. And I got to clean it up for them. So we just, you know, it's transparency is huge. And being ethical, ethical is my favorite word, one of them, other than methodical.

and I, you know, I just stick with it. And integrity is really, really important gets us far. Yeah, you know, I'm out of the transactional space the last couple of years. I left the fix and flip space. I left the wholesale space. I did that for a very long time. Did very well for me. The thing I always found is, you know, I was one of the earlier.

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So back in 2012 and 2011 and 2010, when the country was still trying to figure out the short sales and the foreclosures and it was still happening. And so I understood how. to kind of play that game. But it is just becoming increasingly worse with again, like you said, you know, so many people out there that don't

have money, that never had money, they don't have any intention ever to do this and they basically effectively lie to the seller and you know, harm the seller. There's a lot of which is totally different by the way

than all the this, you know, wholesaling is illegal. Right. Bad apples and bad actors are bad actors, right? Wholesailing isn't illegal, in my opinion. It's not. Buying a house subject to the existing loan is not illegal in my opinion. It is what you say and how you say it and then the actions behind it that start to make things questionable. That is correct. What do you see coming down the pipe in your world and I know your head's down and you're growing this incredible company and transatlantic. acting, but there is still this whole thing about, you know, creating wholesalers have to get licensed. What are you seen or what are you up to date on that I'm a little bit out of that now?

I've separated myself from that space. So I'm not sure. Has it made much progress or are we getting anywhere there with that? I mean, it really depends on the market, what state you're in. Like I know Texas, they're really hammering down on things and they always have. been. I know there's case law basically everywhere. So there's going to be some regulations. I'm just, I haven't seen any really solid ones come through yet. But like a good example of a bad actor and a deal that could go south. This would be an example of something that I think will cause those types of regulations with the Department of Commerce in our state. Let's say we had a an investor come to our company.

This is a couple years ago. And they begged, please, please, you know, we want to close this deal. We have to close on a Saturday. The auction is on Monday. And I'm like, you know, that just doesn't sound right to me because what if we don't get that money to reinstate the property in on time? Because the share of sales probably going to be at 9 a.m. or 10 a.m. Monday morning. So I backed out. I said, you know, I'll pretty much say yes to everything. I rarely say no, but I backed out. And I said, I wish I could help you. You're going to have to find someone else. So they went to my only true competitor within the state. And for investor-friendly transactions, I should say. And they closed it. Well, they all got a really huge pickle later. There's a really, really long lawsuit. because what had happened, it was subject to.

There were a couple assignments involved. Seller got rushed to the table. They signed on Saturday or Sunday. Seller didn't understand what was going on. Seller didn't have time to read through everything. They didn't have all the appropriate whole harmless and disclosures. Nothing was done correctly to make sure that everyone was thoroughly aware. When I have a subject to transaction, I personally want to sit with that.

party and make sure they fully understand what they're getting into before I first sit. But, you know, a lot of wholesalers rush, rush, rush, rush, they want the money. I get it. You know, I'm all about helping investors make money. Totally get it. But when you rush, there's a lot of red flags there. What had happened is they didn't make the auction. The money got rejected.

The property went to share of sale. So basically all parties were screwed in this transaction. and we're talking several wholesalers. We're talking the end buyer. She lost her money because she sent it on to reinstate something and never got reinstated. The seller gave a deed to someone and the property went into foreclosure. I mean, there was so much going on here. Everyone got sued.

Everyone. Everybody got sued. So, you know, that's some case law that's going to start prompting. things. So the bad actors out there and the people that care about money and rush, rush, rush, and not doing things properly and not disclosing things properly, they're going to screw it up for a lot of

people. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, they will. Yep, a subject to is totally illegal. There's nothing to be wrong with it. You just have to be a smart investor and have the right exit strategy when you get into those types of things. Talk to us about the things that you would

advise. And again, you know, I think some of these investors need to listen. You are looking at all the deals, all the paperwork, all the nuances of every deal. What are some things you advise? Don't do these things. You will get in a pickle and or I won't either participate. Like you bring me a file and it's structured like this. Don't come this way with that.

I won't do it. What are a couple of things that some of these wholesalers or creative finance investors or the things not to do? Um, my biggest one, and this is the question that a lot of the wholesalers are told to ask, um, by others on social media, um, when they interview investor friendly title companies. Um, that question is, you're not going to share that it's an assignment, right? Um, you're not going to share that there's a different body, right? And right then I'm like, nope, not. doing it. You know, if you're not willing to be transparent, I don't care. You can make a million dollars on this deal. I don't need to disclose that, but you do need to disclose that you're doing this for profit. A lot of those things is like, you know, you're just trying to hide things. You know, it's really easy just to disclose things honestly and not run into a problem. I've had a lot of

closings screw up because of not disclosing things. And also, if you're like a real estate agent and your license, if you're licensed as something but you're acting as an investor or a wholesaler, you need to be sure that you're putting in writing that you're not working under that license or acting as an agent in that transaction. Because that could get you in a lot of trouble with the state you're in. Yeah. So essentially, non-disclosure, like a lack of disclosure is where these investors are hurting themselves and or you wouldn't want to play in that. escrow because, you know, someone is doing it.

You've seen at least people do that with malicious intent, right? Like I don't want to disclose because something negative, right? Where if you're on the up and up, then disclose away, right? There shouldn't be a reason. I come from a background of sales. I was able to always talk sellers into understanding what I'm doing. Hey, if I can't fund this, I'm going to bring it to my network to say, hey, here's an investment deal you guys might like.

If you're okay with that, then I'm going to make sure that this closes, whether it be myself and or someone that is out there that likes a deal like this. Sellers with that little part of the script when I was in the business, they never had a problem. They want to sell the home. They don't care who the buyer is. You know, and if you assign a property, the assignee, they don't care how much you agree to with the seller. They just care that the numbers jive and work for them. One story I'd love to share, though, as an example, a very recent transaction we had going on was a wholesaler, signed a purchase agreement with a seller. We're getting close to closing crickets.

Wholesetters nowhere to be found, not saying anything. And the first thing that tells me immediately, I'm like, ah, they don't have a buyer and they didn't disclose to us that they're looking for a buyer. Well, this poor seller had already put a deposit on another home. She had already had everything moved out of the house. Her, the property she was purchasing, the sellers on that, it was contingent on her sale. Like, there were all these parties involved. You know, so many people involved. And this wholesaler was not empathetic, did not care, did not communicate anything.

And then they just decided, you know what, we can't find a buyer. We're just going to cancel it. And I mean, the seller was devs this. And so this wholesaler is going out with the intention of never coming up with that money. You sign a contract, standing you'll buy it. And now you're backing out. That is a huge no-no to me. Like, if you want to sign it or you're going to try to wholesale it, great.

But your exit strategy also needs to be that, hey, I'm still going to go through with what I signed on a legally binding contract and purchased your home. So that long story short, that wholesaler will not be working with our company. Yeah, absolutely. So give some advice of what they should be doing. What are the best practices these days that from your side, right? The gurus are going to say what they're going to say. And here's how to navigate the deal. And here's how you do it.

Great. When you are on your seat dealing with tile and escrow, I want you to now teach. You take the time to teach them what are the best practices in the wholesale space, the creative finance space, what should they be doing and how? Yes, absolutely. So when we're talking about the disclosures, one of the biggest things on a purchase contract, sales contract, whatever, is when you're putting your company's name or whatever name as a purchaser, always add and or assigns after that.

Because right there, you're making it very clear to that seller or anybody else that reviews that purchase contract that you may have. assign it and that's okay nobody can come back and contest that um that would be really important um you're getting into sub two deals get team up with an investor friendly title company that does creative deals you know i know everybody is hearing all these different techniques and what you can and cannot do i end up getting calls where it's like no i know you heard that and i know everybody's saying that but that's not the fact. So you really want to connect with someone that has expertise in knowledge so that they can help guide you or, you know, a lot of people send their purchase contracts

to me and say, hey, this is a sub-to. Does it go pay what I do here? And like, absolutely. But we also have like packages that we have seller sign so they know up front what type of deal they're getting into, you know? So there's no question. If they came back and said, well, you didn't tell me this. No, we did. We went through everything third. early. And, you know, same with like novation type transactions, you know, make it really clear, have work with a title company that has those tools to help you. And it's going to make you look more credible too, right? So that's a huge thing because so many people are coming in acting like they know everything because they paid for something online and just to find that I have to

end up teaching them how to do it the proper way. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's even more of a police service. It's like I'm consulting for everybody. Yeah. And back in the day, funny enough, because I started back in 2007 where there weren't nearly as many gurus, there was probably like, you know, four.

I would do that. I would lean on my escrow officer to say, hey, I think I'm doing this right. I'm not totally sure. Can you offer some advice? And, you know, without putting more work on it for you. Right. without putting more work on for you, people should understand, like, Ash is there to make sure the deal goes through for you and the seller. She wants both of you to get this deal done.

So if you're sitting here wondering, should I put this disclosure, should I write it up like this, she's going to give you the right answer. So I would encourage anyone listening to this that is looking to be in the transactional game and the wholesale game, the creative finance game. Get a hold of Bash if she's in your state. But what seven states are you in again? Florida, North Dakota, Minnesota, Arizona. Iowa Michigan is a hot one right now Wisconsin

Wisconsin If she's in your state right now Reach out to her immediately Let her tell you the escrow Like get escrow open with her Let her review your paperwork Let her review your your disclosures Right I mean it was kind of a hack I used

Right is I didn't have to go pay the guru $20,000 I just asked my escrow officer Is this look good right? I was able to download the purchase disagreement online. 99% of this is free, everybody. I want everyone to know that. Like, there's incredible educators out there

that can actually educate. But a lot of this stuff is either on YouTube or on the internet that you can download and watch and understand. And then you come to a resource like Ash at Phoenix Closing Co. And you say, hey, is this right? Do I need anything or omit anything?

It's just a hack. I honestly, I mean, that is great advice. to give to others. You know, I'm not an attorney. I can't give legal advice, but I've seen enough of this that I'm happy to help newer investors. Because once I do and once, I mean, I've invested a lot of time in training investors how to do like sheriff redemptions. And in fact, after this, I'm meeting some of my newer clients down at the county courthouse in Minneapolis because I'm going to walk them through how to do a junior late redemption. and that's time I'm taking out of the day as the owner of my company because I want to show them how to do it right because I know they're always going to stick with me and be loyal. If I show them how to do it the right way, that's huge value for them. And it's valuable for me because it makes every transaction after that like simple.

Yeah, you know, what you've done so well with your company and your brand is you actually are a practitioner of, getting into the trenches, going down to the county courthouses, doing the things with the investors. I promise you, I've worked with the largest companies, and we all know those names. They don't have that ability. I always loved working with companies that had that, you know, extra touch, that customer service, right? And again, you're in seven states now. You're going national. But if you're in those states, Wisconsin's in Iowa and Florida and Arizona and North Dakota and Minnesota,

to get a hold of her because she will hold your hand to get these transactions through, whether they're incredibly hairy or maybe you're on the newer side and you're like, I want to make sure this happens. Can you make sure I'm dialed in? There's no way out. The buyer is committed. It's not, whatever those things are, you know, Ash is there to serve you guys. Anything else that you want the investors to know about, A, the services that Phoenix Closing Co does. Again, we mentioned the website. Also, where to find you directly. You gave the phone number or your Instagram handle, whatever you're most on. Where can people find you?

And actually I didn't mention, we do have a main email address and it's info at Phoenix, P-H-O-E-N-I-X-Closingco.com. We also have our website, which is Phoenixclosingco.com. It is getting a little revamped because I have some additional services and things I want to offer and get more value to clients because that was still my start. up page, but you can still find me there. Also on Facebook, you can find Phoenix Closing Co. LLC. Also, a lot of my clients are friends with me at Facebook, which is really awesome because we get into a lot of different, you know, marketplace groups and everything together. And my name is Ash S-E-L-L-E. I do have a pretty awesome team of girls that are always available

and always helping. One of our main things is, you know, when you find an investor-friendly title company, you want to treat them like gold, you know? Yeah. And our biggest thing is communication. Like, my competitors are lacking in that, is the communication and the speed

and how prompt we're getting to things because literally everything in our industry is urgent for investors. Everything. Of course. Yeah, of course. So that's one of the top things. And, you know, it's really rewarding for us to be able to help investors that leave with integrity. And just helping people that are going through loss, putting sellers in a better situation later.

That's really my purpose. Putting money in the investors pocket and then helping that seller find their next chapter in life. Yeah. And I'll reiterate. Like, guys, Ash is here to get the deals done. I promise. Use her as a reason. to get it done the right way, first and foremost, but she wants this deal to go through the same

way you do as the investor, the same way the seller does. So lean into these resources. Be kind, by the way. I know as an investor, like, we tend to be pressing and use some kindness, right, when engaging, because you're not their only client. They have multiple files. So try to be kind and aware that there's a lot going on in these deals. And so, Ash, I really appreciate coming on, phoenix closing co.com. Get with her on Facebook. Use the email. She's phenomenal, phenomenal, phenomenal human.

Thank you so much for coming on. The Moore Show, maximizing opportunities in real estate.