The Sean McDowell Show - A Jewish Thinker Challenges Christianity — Sean Responds

Episode Date: November 27, 2025

Where do Jews and Christians agree, and where do they disagree about Jesus, salvation, miracles, and the Messiah? In this conversation, I talk with Orthodox Jewish thinker Shabbos Kestenbaum, a grad from Harvard Divinity school, and a political commentator for Prager U. Let us know what you think of this dialogue and if you want more like it. FOLLOW Shabbos on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shabboskest/ READ: More Than a Carpenter, by Sean and Josh McDowell (https://amzn.to/4rpqf42) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [smdcertdisc] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

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Life Audio. One of the many things that bothers me about Christianity is the bar for you being wrong is so low, but the bar for me being wrong is so high. As in Judaism has a very liberal slash generous definition of who gets into the afterlife. I mean, if I'm completely honest to you, I go, whew, I'm safe. If you're right, I'm in. If I'm right, I'm in. Yeah.

But if I'm sitting in your shoes, I go, I better be really certain. This guy, Jesus is not God. I want to rule every possibility out, consider all the evidence. That's exactly how I look at it. And now you can appreciate why Jews are so nervous all the time because there's a lot writing on our beliefs. I think actually the only real convincing argument that we are currently living in the messianic age is actually the establishment of the state of Israel. Christians would do this country a tremendous service if they got other Christians to go to church and learn the New Testament. And hopefully the Old Testament too, I think that would be great for America and really for Western civilization.

whether it's the rise of loneliness, whether it's the epidemic of consumerism. So much of that can be attributed to the fact that so many young Americans have actually detached themselves from religion. We're seeing post-Charlie Carth there's been a surge for the first time that Gen Z is actually more religious than their parents. And that is awesome. Shabbas Kestenbaum, that is as Jewish of a name as I've heard in a long time. Yes. As I was saying, my name is a gift to the anti-Semites. They just look at my name and they don't even have to make the joke. It's written for them.

So you're Jewish by name and by practice. Yes. So I'm going to make a statement, and I just want your reaction. Take this anywhere you want to take it. Jesus is the most famous and influential Jew who has ever walked the earth. Oh, for sure. And that's one of the reasons I get upset with the anti-Semites when they say, well, what did Jews ever do for us? I'm like, well, you worship one.

So let's start with that. Absolutely. And I am not one of those Jews, especially in the Orthodox community, who denounce his own existence. I very much concede the point that Jesus very much existed on planet Earth. He walked on the earth, maybe not walked on the water, but he was a practicing rabbi. He was Torah observant, at least for parts of his life, and he very much existed in the temple period in Jerusalem, unquestionably. Okay, so I'll dive into some of this. But first, I want to ask a question. When I was up visiting you, you work at Prager You, and interviewed me, and we talked about kind of a

Christians take on Jesus, which was really fun. And one of the things you said to me early on, you said something in effect of, if you're right, I still go to heaven. If I'm right, you don't. Is that fair? You made a statement like that. One of the many things that bothers me about Christianity is the bar for you being wrong is so low, but the bar for me being wrong is so high, as in Judaism has a very liberal

slash generous definition of who gets into the afterlife. and it really matters more on your actions rather than your beliefs. Your beliefs are still important, don't get me wrong, but it's not like a Muslim or a Christian who denounces the mosaic law cannot get into heaven. Whereas if I deny the divinity of Jesus Christ, which, spoiler, I do, the odds of me getting into heaven from what I understand are pretty low. So tell me a little about this, because for me, I feel like, I mean, if I'm completely honest you, I go, whew, I'm safe.

If you're right, I'm in. If I'm right, I'm in. Yeah. But if I'm sitting in your shoes. I go, I better be really certain. Well, now... This guy, Jesus is not God. I want to rule every possibility out,

consider all the evidence. Is that how you look at it? Or you're not so concerned? No, that's exactly how I look at it. And now you can appreciate why Jews are so nervous all the time because there's a lot writing on our beliefs. The first of the Ten Commandments is really unusual. In Hebrew, it's Anokia Shem al-Khechah,

literally know that there is one God. But it really has no place in connection to the other nine commandments. Don't kill. don't steal, honor your parents. Those are physical things you can actually do tangibly and practically. Know that there is a God. There's no real commandment behind that. So Maimonides, the 12th century medieval philosopher, rabbinic scholar, he says, well, what does it really mean to know that there is a God? You have to know that there is a God in the same way that you know mathematical truth, in the same reason that you know that up is up and down is down. And it's interesting because our patriarch, the founder of our religion, is Abraham. But Abraham was not the first person. And one can make a argument. depending on how you define Judaism, that he was not the first Jew. You have Noah. You actually have 10 generations from Noah to Abraham. You have 10 generations from Adam to Noah.

So there were lots of people before Abraham. And Abraham, one of the reasons he was our patriarch, is because he went out into the world and said, well, what is God and who is God? Maybe it's the sun. Well, that can't be because the sun's power is limited. It's not there at night. So it must be the moon.

Well, that doesn't make sense because the moon's power is limited. There's a midrash, rabbinic story, let's say. It's not a great translation of midrash, but a rabbinic idea where Abraham was working in his father's idol worships tour, and he smashed all of the idols, save for one. And when his father came back and said, who did this? Abraham, how could you? Well, Abraham says, I didn't do this.

The idol did it. And his father said, don't be ridiculous. Idols can't do anything. And Abraham said exactly. So we have to be curious not only about truths, but also the existence of God. And I, after high school, did what most Orthodox Jews in the United States do, which is I went to yeshiva in Israel for two and a half. years. I probably should have stayed longer. And I lived in the old city of Jerusalem, two minutes away

from the Al-Axamas, the Church of the Holy Sepulch, the Domey, the Dome of the Rock, the Western Wall, to literally study how do we know that we are right? Because if we are wrong, we're screwed. So I'm very confident in my Judaism. I really am. And that's why, unlike many other Orthodox Jews, I shouldn't say Orthodox, but unlike many Jews, I'm actually not only willing to have these conversations, but I actually think it only strengthens my faith when you provide questions and I'm able to answer them. And if I can't answer them, then let me research and explore. And as I always say, if you can make a really good argument, I'm happy to be convinced. That has yet to be the case.

Not with you, but in general has yet to be the case where I've been swayed by another religion. But I'm very confident in my Judaism, whereby I don't think that would happen. So let's – I want to come back to your story a little bit, but let's talk a little bit about Jesus. Who do you think he was and why? Well, as I said, he was certainly Torah observant. He was certainly a quasi-rabinic figure living in the times of the Second Temple. The divine aspects are not even corroborated by really any contemporaneous historian or source. I think the first message, the first documentation we get is from Paul in around 50 CE.

Paul did not know Jesus. So the claims that were added after his life that he was a miracle worker, even if I conceded that that was true and he walked on water and he turned water into wine. All of those things could be true. It would still not qualify or quantify him as a messianic figure. In fact, the rabbinic commentators, and even the Old Testament, or I should say, the Hebrew Bible itself says, just because someone can perform miracles does not mean he is or isn't a messianic figure. And in fact, at the time of the Second Temple, Judaism was really the only religion that had messianic claims. This was not a hallmark of any other religion or any other society. So if Jesus really was the Messiah, we Jews during the times of the Second Temple,

We would have been the first ones to believe in him because we really want there to be a Messiah. But he did not fulfill any of the criteria that a Messiah is meant to fill both in his life and certainly afterwards as well. So let's talk about some of the miracles. Do you expect or do you believe that a Messiah would at least do some miracles? Sure. But again, it really wouldn't sway us one way or the other. In fact, when Moses, for example, in the book of Exodus, is told to turn the Nile River into blood, the Egyptian sorcerer say, you know, big deal, we could do that.

too, and they could also do that with the frogs. It wasn't only until the third plague, Keenim, Lice, whereby the Egyptian sorcerers were not able to do it. The Talmud is replete of stories of individuals like Billum, for example, who asks Balak to, Balak asked Bilam to curse the Jewish people, and of course, God changes the wording of Billum's curses, and instead of a curse, it's a blessing. Matovu O'Holeh, Jacob, Mishkin, Oseh, Israel, how goodly are there the of Jacob. But we believe that, sure, certainly there is, I don't know, magic is probably not the right word, but there can be aspects of, again, divinity is probably not the right word either, but there can be miracle aspects to people, but again, that would not in any way prove or disprove one's

ability to be the Messiah. It's really about, sorry, let me add one last, but it's really about rebuilding the temple. It's really about the in-gathering of the exiles. It's really about restoring or bringing about global peace. And if you and I were to be objective, leaving our own religious biases aside, it's quite clear that Jesus, and no one on planet Earth, has accomplished any of those things. The temple has not been rebuilt. You can make an argument there's been an end-gathering of the exiles, which is why there's a term called religious Zionists of Jewish Zionists who actually believe that the establishment

of the state of Israel in 1948 is what's called Reischitz-Smihatku-Ula-Senu, the beginning of the smithas, the offspring, let's say, of the redemption. So one can make an interesting argument that religious scientists make that we're actually living in the messianic age, but you can't really attribute that to Jesus. Now, each one of these we could look at rebuilding the temple, of course.

We could look at peace. We look at some of these different signs and look at the passages and debate some of those. Let me step back to the miracle claims. Like Isaiah 35, Isaiah 61, often taken as messianic passages and prophecies do talk about certain miracles that a messianic figure would do like

healing the blind, et cetera, and the death. So it sounds like we agree there could be some miracles that a Messiah did. One of the questions about Exodus, I remember this came up when you were interviewing me, is you're right. There's a clear indication that miracles can be done or magic by figures outside of, say, the Judeo-Christian tradition. You see this in the Exodus. account. And yet even the magicians at some point, they stop and they go, wait a minute,

we can't repeat that one. I don't remember if it's the flies or exactly which one it is. It's the lights. Yeah, the third place they're not able to do. And they're like, this is the finger of God. So there's different kinds of miracles that cannot arguably be done by magicians or demonic forces, but then there's certain miracles that seem to have more divine or messianic type claims. Before I go any further, would you in principle agree with that or would you challenge that idea? Maybe in principle, but again, there's a tractate in the Talmud called Masekestanis. And in the very first page of Masekestanis, it talks about how there are three keys that God does not give to other people. God alone has them.

One of those keys is to Chiasameh, and the resurrection of the dead. And Tosfos later have been a commentator on the Talmud. He talks about, well, wait a minute, that's not true, because we've actually seen people have been able to resurrect the dead. And he points to the story of Elijah and Elisha Elieahu. I don't know the English translations. I think Elijah and Elish and Eliahu. Yeah. And Tosos basically concludes that there can be moments whereby God sort of gives those keys over two people.

You know, one of the other keys is Gishman, is rain. Only God can bring about rain. But again, the Talmud will talk about instances of Khone Hamagel, an individual who was able to bring about the rain. And again, Tosos concludes by saying, well, again, there must be times where God allows people to perform those miracles because of God. So again, I and the Jewish tradition is really not moved by miracles. So even if I wanted to concede 100% that Jesus was resurrected, which I don't concede that point, but even if I did, it really would not sway our beliefs in any measurable way pertaining to a Messiah, because, again, the biggest fulfillments that a Messiah would have to fulfill just have not been met in any objectionable way.

Okay, so just so I understand if Jesus literally walked on water, and you said earlier you believe you walked on Earth, but not walked on water. If he fed the 5,000, if he healed the blind, healed lepers, said, I'm going to, I'm going to be crucified. You can give it my life. Mark 8, 9, and 10. And then is resurrected, not just raised from the dead, but resurrected from the dead in the sense of an immortal, imperishable, renewed body, not to die again like those who Elisha and Elijah raised from the dead. even if that happened, that would not be enough to give Jesus the authority to understand and interpret the law in your mind. You would still say that's not enough. Not only would that not be

enough, but learning about Jesus in the full context of who he was as a person makes him almost inherently unqualified to be the Messiah. So for example, it's sort of ironic. The Christian conception story, the immaculate conception, by definition, makes Jesus ineligible to be the Messiah, because you have to be from the house of David. Well, he has no house. He has no tribe because a tribe comes from your father. It doesn't come from your mother. So according to every single Jewish criteria,

for many different reasons, Jesus would not be the messianic figure, even if he were to do all of those miracles, which, again, I don't think he did, but even if he did, it still wouldn't matter. Yeah, I'm not sure why the lineage of David wouldn't, I'm not sure why that would disqualify him in the way that you describe it.

If he comes from the lineage of David and some of the other ones from the old Testament, I think that would be sufficient if that's in his line. But using Christian theologian's own logic, he doesn't have lineage. He's the son of God. He's not the son of Joseph. I'm not connecting why that would disqualify him, because if he comes obviously through Mary, and even Joseph, I mean, there's certain questions about adoption and is that a part of the lineage. I don't see why that would necessarily disqualify him. In Jewish law, one's Judaism, like one's religion comes from their mom. So if your mom is Jewish and your dad is Catholic, you're Jewish,

whereas the opposite is true for your tribe. So if your parents are both Jewish and your mom is from the tribe of Yisroel and your father is from the tribe of Levi, then you're a levy. So if Jesus did not have a father, which is not our claim, that's your claim. Then using Jewish logic, though, as to who the Messiah can be, well, then he doesn't have any lineage to any patrilineal descent. And therefore, he can't be part of the House of David. But again, that's just one example of many others, why Jews would say he didn't fulfill all of these things, therefore he can't be the Messiah. And I think the most important point to make, though, fundamentally, is Jews want to believe in Messiah. Like, if there is one thing all Jews can agree on, is that we are waiting for the ultimate redemption.

We are waiting for there to be a third temple. We are waiting for there to be peace on earth. We are waiting for there to be the in-gathering of the exiles. And if Jesus could do it or could have done it, then great. We would have loved to have followed him. There had been messianic figures throughout Jewish history. In fact, in the Talmud, it stated that Rabbi Akiva thought that Barcovah, who led a revolt against the Romans, was a Messiah. But then Rabbi Kiva was killed. And as the Maimonides, as the Rambam says, once someone is dead, then they can no longer be the Messiah.

So to my dad comes from the Habad-Labavich Hasidic movement, which believed that their rabbinic figure, Rabbi Menachimendal-Schnearsin, was the Messiah. And he probably was while he was alive. but then he died in the 90s, and now he is no longer the Messiah because he is dead. So the point, lineage, I guess we could discuss more. It's interesting. Even Luke and Matthew seem to have different lineages tracing for Jesus through his mom and through his father. So yes, he's a son of God, but still has a lineage he's a part of, even if it's not biological. I think we could nuance some of those, but let's talk about the piece one, for example.

Where does it say in the Old Testament that as the Messiah comes, he would initially, bring in peace as opposed to peace being something in the end of the age that the Messiah would bring. Yeah, that's a great question. So it's interesting, as you know, far more than I. The Hebrew Bible itself, I don't think explicitly mentions Olam Haba, literally the world to come at all. There are allusions to the Messiah in later writings, but most of the time you're not going to see any explicit mention. And in fact, a lot of contemporary, at least Orthodox rabbinic figures will say, Need a daily spark of hope and direction? Let the Daily Bible app from Salem Media be that spark.

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right from the app. Feel God's presence in every notification. Search for Daily Bible app on Google Play and begin your day with hope, purpose, and peace. That's kind of the point, right? We have to focus on Olam Hazel, literally this world, and we don't really concern ourselves with what's called Olam Haba, the next world.

So is there a heaven? Yes, we have these rabbinic sources, but we shouldn't really worry about it, which is, in fact, one of the reasons why the Hebrew Bible barely talks about specific rewards you will receive for doing specific things. Sure.

One of the weird exceptions is this mitzvah, this commandment called Shilua Khakain, where you shoe the mother bird away. So the Bible says that if you shoe the mother bird away and then take her eggs, so she doesn't have to watch this very traumatic experience of you taking her eggs away, you will be given a long life. And so the rabbis are kind of confused. Like this is a very odd commandment, number one. And then number two, it's a very odd thing to then say this is your specific reward, because typically do things. Because typically, we don't really do things for the reward or the punishment. We don't do things for the potential consequences in the afterlife. We do things either because they're just objectively good things, or it's because God told us to do those things. So in terms of, of bringing peace on earth, the specifics of your question. It's more of the Talmud that talks about it. So there are many references, I shouldn't even say references. There are many explicit discussions, specifically towards the end of the tractate called Sanhedron, about what the messianic age would look like. But there are other passages as well.

The first one I'm thinking of is toward the ending of what's called Maseketsota, where it talks about that, yes, he would be bringing peace on earth. That would be one of the telltale signs that this is the Messiah. Him coming about will bring the peace. Now, there's also this, because Jews can't agree on anything, there is a different, there is a different interpretation. I'm glad you said that, right. There's a different interpretation that actually know, and this is probably more to your point, that no, no, no, we as human beings will create peace on this earth. And once we have all come together and sung kumbaya, then we bring about the Messiah. So that's a differing approach. But I would say, in my rudimentary understanding of the Talmud, the plurality, not majority, but certainly the plurality opinion seems to suggest that by virtue of the Messiah coming, he will actually bring about. peace himself. Okay, so in fairness, Talmud is written minimally two to 500 years after the time

of Christ. Yes and no. It's when, I mean, literally written probably, but there are discussions that are happening that even predate Jesus. So the Talmud finishes as completion 500C. But there are discussions in the Talmud between rabbis, for example, who literally never met each other. It was written over hundred, it was discussed for hundreds of years. And then it was actually, I don't know if codified is the right word, but it was actually written, yes, it was written and finished roughly 500 CE. But again, there were people who knew Jesus and were speaking about Jesus, or at least referencing Jesus in the Talmud, but there were also rabbis in the Talmud who predated

him by hundreds of years. Okay, so I guess my question would be where we get our authoritative source. And you and I are going to agree that the Hebrew scriptures, I'll call it that instead of the Old Testament. Appreciate that. Last time you took issue of that, which is totally fine. I don't want to die on that hill. The Hebrew scriptures don't explicitly tie the Messiah to a period of peace that will be ushered in immediately.

I'm aware. I mean, the Messiah, it'll be at the end of the age. And of course, what we mean by the end of the age is something we're going to have to debate and discuss. And that can be a long period of time. But, I mean, again, I'm not disagreeing, but I guess my cop-out answer would be, yes, it's true, but it's also true. They don't really talk about the Messiah at all. So now the fundamental question, and this is what my belief is an Orthodox Jew, let me backtrack for a second, it's easier for me to explain or to rationalize why I'm Jewish than it is to rationalize and explain why I'm an Orthodox Jew, because an Orthodox Jew believes foundationally and fundamentally that the words of our rabbis in the Talmud and in other books like Maimonides, Nachmonides, Rashi are either divine or divinely inspired. So for example, when I drank this cup of war, order, I said a blessing to myself.

Barakata Hashem, al-Qa'u'am al-Halam, Shaqqulni Eibidvaro. Now, nowhere in the Hebrew Bible will you find that blessing. Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible will we be told as Jews to bless. This is all instituted by the rabbis. Why do I wear a yamaka? You will not find any reference, illusion, explicit mention of a yamaka. It all comes from the rabbis. So the fundamental question that Orthodox Jews have to contend with is why trust the rabbis?

Because if we don't have faith in the rabbis, and the entire faith is basically not standing on anything. Okay, so that's really helpful. Given that they disagree and debate so much, you say they don't agree about anything. And there's no clear statement about there being peace at least centuries before the time of Christ, and it's not in the Hebrew scriptures, unless we come to conclusion independently that we can trust the Talmud as authoritative. It doesn't seem like that could be a criteria necessarily to dismiss Jesus as the Messiah. When that expectation wasn't there when he came on the scene and fulfilled other prophecies of the Old Testament. As I see it, you would differ. But tell me why I'm wrong in that assessment. Well, who am I to tell you the

professor and preacher why you're wrong? I don't, I wouldn't say you're wrong. I would say we have differences of opinion, which is even before Jesus, there were messianic expectations amongst Jews. I mean, you can look at the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Qumran community and the Dead Sea Scrolls. It was very clear that they were waiting in anticipation and quite conceivably in immediate anticipation that there would be a messianic figure that were to redeem them. It is not true, though, that the only or first classifications of who or what the Messiah is comes from the Talmud. There are allusions to it. So later books, I don't want to say them because I'm not a rabbi and I could be wrong, but at risk of being wrong. I think it's Jhechel.

I think it's Danyel. They talk about, you know, the third temple. They talk about an age of peace, but that is elaborated and clarified in greater detail, certainly yes, in the Mishnah and then later in the Talmud. Okay, this is really helpful to me to surface. I think where the difference of authority and how we approach this is at, because I think the way I'm looking at this is I'm saying, if Jesus claims to be God, and obviously you differ with that, we could go into some of those passages. Yeah, I mean, I think as we look at Paul, I think we look at the Gospels, I think we look at Hebrew. every early text has a high Christology of Jesus. There's no Christian movement apart from that.

I would make that argument. Obviously, you would push back. Maybe that's another conversation we have. But it sounds like the difference is really where we put the authority. So why – I'm curious. How would you answer the question? I could make a case. And if you wanted me to, I will.

Maybe it's another time. Why I think the Bible is true? Old Testament. Sorry, Hebrew Scriptures. Hebrew Bible. Hebrew Bible. why I think the Gospels, letters of Paul, etc. Are authoritative, are reliable.

But tell me why, as an outsider looking in, I should take the rabbis that come second to fifth century, although the debate was earlier than that. Why should I take their words as authoritative from God? I mean, there are lots of reasons, but the most obvious reason is because God himself says in the Hebrew Bible. He says that confined within these five books or really the prophets and the writings as well will not be all of the laws. I can't explicitly state everything in these books. Therefore, I'm going to institute a system of rabbinic scholarship. And when those rabbinic scholarship adjudicate or elucidate my words, that is an extension, says God, of my own words.

In fact, there is an actual commandment or prohibition, I should say, of not adding nor subtracting, which is one of the reasons why Jesus would probably be invalid as the Messiah, because he very much adds a lot to Judaism as a religion. but it's also true that God says that we are going to have a system of rabbis, and you should listen to that system. It's one of the reasons why, for example, that the caryotes, even though, I don't know how many caryotes are alive today, but there is a caryite synagogue, for example, in the old city of Jerusalem,

there is a debate amongst Jews' days whether the cairites are even considered Jewish, because they don't take the oral law or the rabbinic scholarship as divine at all. And that's in complete contradiction to what the Hebrew Bible and God himself is saying. In Hebrew, it's loyasiru, I believe. You know, you should not stray left word or right word from the words of the rabbis. Which, again, places so much emphasis in the divinity or divinely ordained aspect of the Talmud and the later works of the rabbis. So tell me if I'm misunderstanding, maybe I did. The rabbis can add and subtract, but Jesus can't add and subtract.

No, no one can add or subtract. What the rabbis are doing, for example, and the reason, let's go back to this example of blessing on water, that's not adding anything that's simply trying to understand and explain God's own words in the Hebrew Bible. So I'll give you an example. God says, and I apologize, I don't know the English translation, but he says, I want you to keep the holiday of Sukkis, which today is known as the Festival of the Booths, which Jews has been keeping for 3,000 years, where we live in these temporary structures for a couple of days outside. The problem is, if you read the Hebrew Bible, God says, I want you to keep the festival of Sukis. But that's it. He doesn't actually say what Sukis is.

So is that like a soup? Is that a rat? Like, what is that? So then the rabbis through an oral tradition, which is why even though the Talmud is written down, we still call it the oral tradition, because it was passed down orally from Moses outside, Moses at Sinai to the elders, all the way down to my actual rabbi. I mean, people can actually quite easily trace their rabbinic lineage. So my rabbi's rabbi was so-and-so, his rabbi was so-and-so, all the way up to Moses. And through that oral tradition coming all the way from Moses at Sinai, we are able to explain and understand. What are some of the things that God is telling us to do in the Hebrew Bible? Because to the uninformed observer, like me, it's unclear what Sukkis is because God himself doesn't say it. Another example, it also has to do with the holiday of Sukkis, is God says, take an eights pre-Hadar, which essentially just means a nice-looking fruit. Today, all Jews, and this has been the case again for thousands of years, we use what is called an Esroke, which in English is, I believe, a citron fruit, which no one really knows what that is. but it's called an esphroke. And the problem is, though, nowhere in the Hebrew Bible does God say esrog. He just says, take this, you know, beautiful fruit.

So how do we know what that beautiful fruit is? It's because we have an oral tradition going all the way back from Moses when he received the Torah on Mount Sinai that what is an eights pre-Hadar? Oh, it's an esphroke. And so that's how we Jews have been living our lives for 3,000 years. Under the assumption that what the rabbis are telling us are, in fact, not only an oral tradition from Moses, but actually when they adjudicate, when they extrapolate, when they debate, they are doing it in fulfillment of God saying, I need you to build rabbinic scholarship to continue

on this religion. So in some ways, I think this is helpful to me that I think we both look at our traditions as speaking for the God of the Hebrew scriptures. The question is, where does that authority lie? Is it with the rabbis or is it with Jesus? That seems to be, at least to me, we've clarified where that. that difference is. If I could go back, even though you said if Jesus was resurrected, you wouldn't, that would not be enough to convince you that he's the Messiah. Tell me why you don't believe

that he resurrected. Actually, before you do that, if he did resurrect, I mean, what, what you said he's, he's not God, he's not a prophet, he walked on earth. If he did resurrect, what would you conclude about him if that happened? How would you process that? If you were convinced historically that it happened? If I was convinced historically that Jesus was resurrected, then my understanding would be that Jesus was resurrected, and that would basically be it. Jesus is someone who violated Torah prohibition, so you can't be a Messiah, and for example, I don't know, not keep the Sabbath or not keep kosher. Again, Jesus probably did do those things, but he at no point encouraged his followers to do those things. I mean, Christianity today is markedly different than

the Christianity of the times of Jesus and in the couple hundred years after Jesus. I think actually Jesus, if he were alive today, which I don't know, maybe he is, but if he were alive today, I actually think he'd be pretty shocked at what Christianity turned into. I mean, my, my understanding totally disagree with that. My understanding of Christianity, and again, using the term Christianity is coming from our 21st century contemporary goggles, but at the time, they wouldn't call themselves Christians. They would say, we're more, we are the more pious Jews. We are fulfilling God's words more than you other Jews are doing. But fundamentally, if you are going to violate prescribed Torah law like Shabbat, like kosher, then you can't be a leader of the Jewish people.

And this isn't just true of Jesus. We have had false messias in the past. So probably the most famous example is an individual called Shabtidesfi. And he convinced a lot of people, I mean, a lot of people that he was the Messiah. I mean, Jacob Frank has writings upon writings whereby people were actually selling their properties, people were packing up their businesses all to move to the Holy Land, and then Shubtite's fee is arrested by the Ottomans, and he converts to Islam. And that's kind of the end of the story, because you can't be the Jewish Messiah if you then convert to Islam. It doesn't really work that way. Well, we can certainly agree on that one.

Yes. There's no question about that. So I just want, I guess one makes you understand. It wasn't Jacob Frank. It was Nathan of Gaza. I apologize. Not Jacob Frank. Fair enough. Both new to me. So if Jesus did claim to be God, and I realize we're not arguing that right now, if he claim to be the God of the Hebrew scriptures, then it would seem to me he would at least in principle have the authority to interpret or understand or even overturn the way people have been practicing certain traditions in principle. If he is Yahweh, would he have that authority to do that? I would be with you if you did not use the word overturn.

That seems a little dangerous for me. Because, again, you can't – once you have a biblical commandment, there is nothing you can do to change or add or subtract to that biblical commandment. In fact, adding or subtracting is a biblical prohibition. So for anyone to overturn it, again, this is one of the problems with Shubtide's fee, for him to say that we don't have to keep the laws anymore. We don't have to keep the Jewish holidays. Well, that is a telltale sign that you are not, in fact, the moment. Messiah. In fact, early rabbinic scholarship used that point, and they probably had Jesus in mind, but they used that point of saying, if a Messiah is going to come along and say, we now don't have

to do all of these things because we're entering a new era, then you for sure know he's not the Messiah. The Messiah needs to be a pious individual who is not only Torah learned, but Torah observant, who brings about the things we were mentioning earlier. You know, I know you're hung up on the world peace, and it's an interesting theological debate, but just like practically speaking, as I said, I lived in the old city of Jerusalem for two and a half years. You can go to the old city right now. I encourage your listeners to do it. There is a mosque on the Temple Mount. There's no third temple.

So it's very difficult for Jews who, again, really want to believe in a Messiah, but it would be very difficult for us to concede the point that Jesus is the Messiah when he has been, I won't use the word dead, but he hasn't been around physically for a very long time, and there is still no third temple. Well, yeah, so part of it would be is that the temple of his body would be one question. We could talk about what that means. And then we'd have to look, same as you did with peace,

You have to look at the passages that clearly link the Messiah to the physical rebuilding of the... Need a daily spark of hope and direction? Let the Daily Bible app from Salem Media be that spark. This free Android app delivers an uplifting verse each morning, plus reading plans, devotions, and trusted podcasts from leaders like Joyce Meyer and Rick Warren. Prefer to listen instead? The Daily Bible app reads verses, reading plans, and chapters aloud handy for the headphones moment of your day. Choose from versions like ESV, NIV, NIV, KJV, and more, and bookmark favorites to revisit later. Share inspiring messages with loved ones right from the app.

Feel God's presence in every notification. Search for Daily Bible app on Google Play and begin your day with hope, purpose, and peace. Temple, that's an angle we would have to go down, which will hold for another time. Let me come back to the resurrection. So if Jesus claims to be God, then maybe we don't use the term overturn, but he can't. can interpret, he can help us with authority how we ought to use and apply these commands going forward, it would seem to me. Let me ask one more question for according to that.

Are all the commandments in the Hebrew scripture still applicable today, or have any of them ended for any reasons in your mind? I'll give you a Jewish answer. It depends. It depends that you define applicable, simply because about a third of all the six or 13 commandments can only be done with a temple. So I'll give you an example. Every Shabbat, we pray three times a day in synagogue,

but on Shabbat we have an extra prayer. It's called Musaf, which actually literally means additional. And the Musaf prayer concludes, the Musaf prayer, I guess the, not spiritual climax, but really the point of the Musa prayer, is we actually recite what the order of the animal sacrifices on the Sabbath are. Because during the times of the temple, we wouldn't be praying.

we would just be doing the animal sacrifices. And we conclude every single week, Jews have been doing this for 3,000 years. We conclude the Musa prayer by saying, this is the order of the Musa prayer. This counts as if we had just given the animal sacrifices in the temple. So when you say suspend,

it basically depends how you define suspending. Because we can't physically do it, but we've sort of evolved, if that's the right term. Having said that, I want to piggyback on something that you had said, and I don't know if you meant this deliberately, but our conversation sort of centered around Jesus as a messianic figure, but you just used in your question the term that Jesus is God or claiming to be God or whatever.

But that issues a whole other can a worm's because the Messiah, I think we can have a debate, but to claim that a person or he's a part of God, whatever that means, that would be even more indigestible to the Jewish community, to have God existing outside of anything other than God. God. In fact, one of the prayers that kids are taught from a very early age is what's called Yigdal, and you sing it on Friday Night After Services, and that's a really nice tune. But part of Yigdal is an lo de moose ha goof, the ain't no goof, that he has no physical characteristics, he has no body. So the idea that God would, again, I don't know the exact terminology, but he would take form of a man or he would be part of man, that would be totally alien to any Jewish thought at any point in Jewish history. So it's easier to debate the Messiah.

Let me rephrase. It's more complex to debate the Messiah because I think you make interesting points, but it's very easy to debate Jesus being God because that would be so not acceptable within the Jewish faith. There are so many roads I want to go down here, and I'm tempted to. Maybe I'll just bracket this and we'll come back to it. But there might be passages like in Genesis 17 or like in Genesis 32, where Jacob is wrestling with God.

With an angel of God. But even that raised a question, what does it mean to be an angel of God and a messenger of God in human form? You see a similar kind of almost Yahweh type figure in Genesis Chapter 17 that's really interesting. So,

I would love to come back to that and explore that angle with you. Again, I would see it very differently, but tell me why you just don't believe in the resurrection. You don't think that would convince them. You are hung up on the resurrection. Well, I'm not hung up on. So here's what I'm trying to do. I'm not trying to be hung up on this.

I'm trying to take individual claims you're making and just at least explore them in some depth rather than pepper everything. No, it's a fair point. But again, even if I were to concede that the resurrection happened, I mean, in modern Hebrew, we say like Schoyach, which basically means like, okay, sure, it happened, but therefore what?

I mean, that's like an actual, like, therefore what? Jesus is problematic as a messianic figure for so many other reasons. So we can, sure, he was resurrected, but it still does not refuse. any of the claims that I was making earlier and any of the theological immovable principles that Judaism has

had for 3,000 years, both pertaining to a messianic figure and certainly pertaining to a divine figure. Okay, all right. So that's interesting in terms of how you approach the resurrection. So if I'm understanding correctly, somebody could be on

earth, make divine claims. Again, we haven't established that. In principle, do miracles. Say, I'm going to die. And a third day, I'm going to rise from the grave. God allows that to happen, sanctions it, but that doesn't in any way confirm the message that this individual gave. I just, I guess with my limited understanding of Christian theology, I just don't see how that is markedly different than Elijah and Elihu doing, Elihu and Alicia doing the exact same thing to that boy.

Okay, so I would say the difference would be that boy didn't make Messianic or divine claims. But can I just quickly interject? Did Jesus in his life make messianic or divine claims? Or were those claims made later after him? Well, okay. So now we're getting into, can we trust the writings about Jesus, which we'd have to establish? I mean, you ask me, which is fair, how do we know the rabbis are right? Which is a fair question. It's something that we Jews have to defend. But Jesus himself in his lifetime, was he making the claims that he's the Messiah? My understanding is that no, people were making the claims for him after he was dead. Either Jesus told me, Jesus appeared to me, I heard it from him, but Jesus himself saying it directly. Maybe I'm wrong, but my understanding is,

no, he actually never made those claims. I think he made it pretty clearly in John Chapter 4. Okay. Now, of course, I'd have to establish, is this reliable, is this historical, which would, in some ways, that would take us aside, but I think John Chapter 4, which is a book, most scholars would say written in the 90s, so decades after the time of Jesus, but I would argue rooted in, in, eyewitness accounts and archaeological support, et cetera. But in verse in 425, this is the woman at the well. The woman said, him, I know that the Messiah is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us. Jesus told her, I, the one speaking to you, am he. Again, to sound like the annoying pessimists in the room again, to your own point, Jesus dies in what, 30,

CE 35 CE, this is decades after the fact. In the Jewish tradition, for example, the biblical canon, with the exception of possibly the last few books, were all written by Moses, you know, while he was alive, dictated directly by God. Again, the last few books of the Book of Deuteronomy, it's unclear who actually wrote them. Because he talks about his death. Exactly. So that's why there's like there's some debate, well, who did this. But leaving those few books aside, the entirety of the five books of Moses is written by one guy during his lifetime dictated by God. And the contention I sort of have with Christianity is, well, how come – and I think we mentioned this on our show last time, how come you don't have contemporaneous sources during the times of Jesus, either Jesus himself or his associates who are talking about this is what Jesus is doing right now?

I mean, as I said, I think the first person to mention Jesus is Paul in 50 CE. I think the first non-Christian source we see is – what's his name with the P? I'll remember his name in post-production. Wait, you said non-Christian. non-Christian. It's a Roman officer. I will remember his name. I can tell you the moment we stop production. I'll remember his name. Okay. But it starts with the P. Anyways, and he just talks about how there are these groups. I don't think he uses the word Christian, but there are these groups of people who are, you know, very upset because this figure was crucified, and it's quite clear that he's referring to Jesus. It's not Josephus. I'll get in a second. I'll Google it. This is early

second century, worshiping Jesus as if he were a God. So this is a question about what historical sources can we support? I mean, in some ways, if the Talmud is written centuries after Jesus and we're looking for reliable historical sources, that's not one I would remotely consider as a reliable source about the person of Jesus. But again, to be clear, when you say written, like literally written down, yes, and it was actually controversial when it was written down.

It was not meant to be written down because when you write something, you confide it. You actually restrict and limit its ability to impart change and knowledge. Sure. But in terms of like discussions that the Jewish community were having, for sure, this was happening both during before and after the time of Jesus, which I believe would make it a very historical and credible document. Well, I think that makes my point, though, if this is two centuries removed, we have a book written in the 60s, clearly well known at that point. This is about a third the distance removed. That's only one example.

And if I go to Mark written as early as, you know, I mean, I could give the dates an argument for Mark. We have Luke. It's not like we have one source written 200 years later. We have multiple sources from Jesus himself, from his followers, claiming that he's God, having the words of Jesus saying things like in Mark chapter 14, which almost all scholars would say is the earliest account of Jesus. And it has a written kind of early testimony behind it. This is where you and I are obviously going to differ on this one. But I think historically speaking, to have so many sources so early, so unanimous that Jesus claimed to be God, I don't know that we can dismiss it and say he didn't claim to be God or claim to the Messiah when there's at least so many sources. Oh, no, I'm definitely not dismissing that people claim that he was the Messiah.

That, for sure, for all the sources you just mentioned, for John, for Luke, for sure. What I am, I wouldn't say dismissing, what I am skeptical of is that Jesus in his time, and his contemporaneous sources or associates are not making the claim during his lifetime that this is someone who is either a messianic figure or the son of God. Jesus himself is not saying that. And again, even if I wanted to concede the point that he said he was the son of God or he is the Messiah or whatever it may be, you still have this intractable problem of 3,000 years of Jewish criteria and sources on what constitutes a Messiah, what constitutes our redemption.

redemption. And we just don't see that Jesus fulfilled those things. And again, that's not specific to Jesus. We haven't seen anyone fulfill those things, including people who we actually thought were the Messiah. So we are, as I said earlier, we are the first religion to have messianic expectations. We want there to be an ultimate redemption. We want there to be a rebuilt temple. We want there to be Torah observance increase throughout the world. The problem is we haven't been able to place a figurehead at the forefront of that movement. And again, we would have been the most obvious choices to follow Jesus. And there's something to be said over the fact that so many did not. It is interesting when you say we, because there's quite a few in a significantly growing messianic Jewish movement, even within Israel. So, like, obviously most don't believe in except Jesus, and we could talk about reasons why, which would take us far aside. But so last question on this, and then we'll move on.

Sure. It sounds like if I'm hearing you correct. Jesus walked the earth, practiced Jewish traditions in some sense, taught about it, didn't claim to be God, didn't claim to the Messiah. These traditions emerged within decades and show up in the various documents later on, but they were not in the earliest tradition about Jesus. Is that a fair summary? Yeah, that is fair and articulated it far better than I ever could. And I would say that's even a more liberal concession and generous concession that most Jews would even make. I think you would find a lot more hard-line conservative Jews who would probably argue that what I just said or what you just said in my name was heretical.

But I believe that to be the case what you just said. Fair enough. Well, given what you said about Jews not agreeing on anything, I wouldn't expect you to speak for all Jews. Yes, I am not. Certainly not. So last question on this. What's the evidence for that? what is the evidence that Jesus lived and walked didn't make these claims and then it appears in the

earliest strata letters of Paul Mark Luke John etc Hebrews consistently I just want to know historically why should I believe that he didn't make the claims that everybody early on unanimously says that he made and there's no early strata of him claiming anything else well that's sort of unfalsifiable right you can't really prove a negative it'd be easier for me to say what is your proof that he did walk on water because someone said it if i were to tell you that i just walked on water and i got my friend to tell you that i did is that enough proof so it's probably easier for me to ask you the question that way okay fair enough so i'll i could make that case i'd be happy to come back in your show and go into the details on that uh so i know it's an annoying need a daily spark of hope and direction let the daily bible app from salem media be that spark this free android app delivers a an uplifting verse each morning, plus reading plans, devotions, and trusted podcasts from leaders like Joyce Meyer and Rick Warren. Prefer to listen instead? The Daily Bible app reads verses, reading plans, and chapters allowed handy for the headphones moment of your day. Choose from versions like ESV, NIV, NIV, KJV, and more, and bookmark favorites to revisit later. Share inspiring

messages with loved ones right from the app. Feel God's presence in every notification. Search for Daily Bible app on Google Play and begin your day with hope, purpose. and peace. I think if you're going to say this is what happened, you've got to give some reason to back it up. Because I have no reason to believe otherwise. And the same reason, you have no reason to believe that I did walk on water because the established status quo is that I didn't.

You walked on water is totally different than Jesus walking on water. I think this gets back to the difference between, say, Elijah, and let me clarify here, between Elijah and the person Elijah raised and Jesus. there was no claims to be the Messiah that I would argue are early and consistent in the text. There's no testimony to that person doing miracles early on, claimed to be God. There's not the expectation of this. And that individual rose and died again. The claim about Jesus is that this was the first fruits of the resurrection from like Isaiah 2619,

Ezekiel 3637, Daniel 12, too, that the Old Testament talks about this at the end times, that it happened in the middle of history. So I would just argue there's a qualitative difference between rising from the dead and an actual resurrection. I think there are a lot of ways of responding, but I think the most concise one would be it's interesting, and I'm not trying to sound annoying here,

but it's interesting that you would use Isaiah or Ezekiel or other biblical sources and prophets to talk about the end times and these signs of bringing back the dead, but then not the other signs that no one, let alone Jesus has accomplished either. So it's sort of like, well, we'll use the biblical prophets when Jesus fulfills those things, but when the biblical prophets talk about other things that Jesus kind of hasn't fulfilled, well, that's sort of like an inconvenient truth that will

circumvent. So again, I'm happy to be convinced that Jesus was the Messiah if people can show me that there isn't a mosque on the Temple Mount right now, if people are able to show me that Torah observance has increased amongst the Jewish people. I think actually the only real convincing argument that we are currently living in the messianic age is actually the establishment of the state of Israel. And that's not me really saying this as a Zionist because I'm actually not that big of a Zionist, which might be a shock to some of my enemies on Twitter. But I think the most convincing argument is the in-gathering of the exiles has literally happened. There are Jews from Ethiopia, Jews from the Soviet Union, Jews from all four corners of the world that have come to

Israel since the establishment in 1948. And in fact, one of the coolest parts is the Jewish tradition talks about the confe nasharim that we will fly to Israel on the wings of eagles. And that was written thousands of years ago. And so the religious Zionists will say, well, what's a wing of eagle? What are the wings of eagles? It's airplanes. And so every time Israel conducted Operation Magic Carpet and Operation Solomon and Operation Moses, and they used El Al Cargo flights to do it. That is literally the biblical fulfillment of taking Jews from the middle of nowhere, bringing them on wings of eagles, and then bringing them to the promised land. You know, there are other biblical prophecies, for example, that talk about how the deserts will start blooming, how you will start

producing of the earth. You know, Israel has one of the highest productions of milk per capita of any other country. They have turned the Negev desert into a like bountiful, beautiful, I wouldn't say forest, but there are a lot more trees today than there ever have been since the time of the Second Temple. So I actually think the only group who can make a very convincing argument that we're living in the Messianic age are religious Zionists. And they talk about, for example, I think it's Isaiah, but I could be wrong. They talk about, for example, I think it's Isaiah, but I could be wrong. They talk about this quote from the Old Testament of the elderly will be sitting as they watch the kids play in the streets of Jerusalem. And that was sort of just like fanciful thinking for 2,500 years.

And now you can just book a one-way ticket on El Al, on Delta, on United. And you can actually see that literally happening of elderly Jews from Iraq, from the Soviet Union, from Turkmenistan, from Australia, who are casually sitting on a park bench in Jerusalem and watching these young kids, Jewish kids, you know, playing ball in the playground. That has literally not happened since the destruction of the Second Temple by the Romans in 70C. Now, I'm with you on Ezekiel 37. And by the way, again, another conversation. I would not pick and choose certain prophecies. I'd love to go to Isaiah and Daniel 9 and some of these in ways that I do think are pointing towards the Messiah.

Again, conversation for another time. And I think you and I have similarity on Ezekiel 37 in the fulfillment of Israel and seen some of the remarkable things. Not only milk, that was a new one to me, but the amount of like water. that Israel's giving to its neighbors, the number of technology, the way it is kind of being a blessing to the world, I think you and I would see in common that that is a kind of biblical fulfillment. Yeah. Let me ask you a question about your boss said something, and I fear I might misrepresent him,

so I'm going to do my best. I heard this probably, I don't know, I'm going to guess, 2008, 2009. It was Christopher Hitchens, the late outspoken atheist. Oh, yeah. Dinesh D'Souza and Dennis Prager. That is a great lineup, by the way. It was at a synagogue in Newport, if I remember, cracking my wife and I were there. And I asked a question that God asked.

I said, who do you think Jesus was? And I remember Dennis said something effective. He clearly doesn't think he's the Messiah, clearly doesn't think he's divine. But somehow God used him. And I think a consequence or punishment might be too strong. but to kind of take the Torah to the world with somebody who's Jewish by dissent, but obviously has a different take on what that means, kind of used Jesus in a way as,

I'm struggling for a better word as a way of kind of saying to the Jewish community maybe, hey, this is what's supposed to happen. So I'm going to use somebody called Jesus, who you reject, to take the Torah to the world. hopefully I represented that fairly. If I did, what's your take on that? Well, I am smart enough to know you don't disagree with Dennis Prager, especially when he is the one signing your paychecks. I would say that it's certainly an interesting take.

I would say, let me answer it first sociologically and politically. I had said at the vigil of Charlie Kirk, which was essentially a rally for Jesus. I mean, there's no other way to qualify what that was. And I had said, this is great. and America would be a much better country if more Christians went to church. Was this a vigil in L.A.? No, in Tucson, Arizona.

Oh, so you went out to the, you were there. President Trump and Tucker Carlson, unfortunately, but, you know, the big one. And as I said, it really was just a rally for Jesus. I mean, speech after speech. And I'm sitting there, and I'm obviously Jewish with my nice little Yamika, and I really thought it was great.

And as I said, Christians would do this country a tremendous service if they got other Christians to go to church, and learn the New Testament, and hopefully the Old Testament too, and live by the principles of Jesus Christ. I think that would be great for America and really for Western civilization. In fact, so many of the problems we're experiencing in Western civilization, whether it's the rise of loneliness,

whether it's the epidemic of consumerism. So much of that can be attributed to the fact that so many young Americans have actually detached themselves from religion. We're seeing post-Charlie Kirk. There's been a surge for the first time that Gen Z is actually more religious than their parents. And that is awesome. So if you want to say that Jesus was a divine instrument by God to bring about the fulfillment of the knowledge of God, then it's an interesting take.

I would probably have to think about that a lot more. But so long as the words of Jesus are being used in the servitude of Judeo-Christian values, in the servitude of building better husbands and fathers and better societies, then sure, great. And I don't feel threatened by that at all. encourage my Christian friends. You should be a lot more religious than you currently are. So the afterlife, tell me about it, just how you see it. I know you had, you just expressed having a big debate with Michael Knowles about this, who's Catholic. We don't have to go into those

distinctions. But you believe in a heaven and a hell and who goes there? Yeah, well, I'll start with the easy part, which is basically anyone. I mean, the criteria of getting in is pretty low. Now, the real question is, well, what part of heaven? So, for example, the ethics of our fathers, which is a second century rabbinic text. It's called Pirca Yavos in Hebrew. They start Pirca Yavos by saying, call Yashlam, Heelam Chalek, La Olom Haba, that all of Israel has a portion in the world to come. Again, we don't really use the term heaven, but Olam Habba, the next world. So meaning any Jew can just be in the next world, and the answer is kind of yes, but a Jew, by virtue of being Jewish has a place, but it might be a really bad place. You still

have to work on yourself. You know, we don't take the Christian approach, for example, that someone else can die for your sins, someone else can absolve you of your sins. No, no, no, your life is your responsibility. You take ownership and responsibility for that life. In terms of the hell part, there's kind of this misconception that you may have heard that, oh, Jews don't believe in hell, which is sort of true, sort of not true. There is this concept called Soa Rotachat, which literally translated means boiling excrement. This is where a lot of anti-Semites get the idea that we believe Jesus is boiling an excrement, which is not true. This is from one of the rabbis or the Talmud. Where's that statement from? I could be wrong. I believe it's first mentioned in

the Talmud. It's talked about in greater depth in the Zohar, which is the book of Jewish mysticism, Kabbalah. But I do believe, and again, please correct me, but I do believe that the first mention of it is in the Talmud. It's so Arotachat. Fair not. And they actually talk about the location, like, where is it? And it's in Jerusalem, which lo and behold. So there are people who will be punished. However, the way in which Jews define punishment probably different. then classical Christian theologian's conception of punishment. So when you die, your world goes, the Ramchal says this, Rabbi Moschkham Luzato. He says that your world goes to what's called the Olam Hanashamos, the world of souls, and your body goes back to the ground.

This is one of the reasons, for example, that Jews are actually opposed and are not allowed to cremate because as the, I think it's from the book of Genesis, you are from dust, you will go back to death. So your body has to go back to the ground, you are buried, and then your souls in this Olamana Shamos, this world of souls. And then this is where Christianity and Judaism do see eye to eye. There's sort of a judgment. There's a measurement of sorts as to how you measured your life. And this is where our conception of hell might differ, because hell is not punishment for the sake of punishment. And I'm saying hell, even though Judaism doesn't really use that terminology. We use the terminology of Gehenem, which means Gehenna, which is like an actual place.

And they will say, Gehenom, this is how it was explained to me when I was in Yeshiva. Gehenim is the place of ultimate regret, meaning you are seeing your life, your 120 years, and you are seeing all that you could have been, all that you could have done, all of your potential, and you squandered it by sin, you squandered it by, you know, sleeping in till four in the afternoon, you squandered it through adultery, you squandered it through extreme cases of murder, of rape, you know, bad things. And so hell is just in a horrendous feeling of regret and shame over the things you did, and the things you could have done instead. It's not a devil with a pitchfork and a fire.

Again, there are some mid-evil rabbinic interpretations that suggest no, it actually is. But as I said, that's not really a mainstream rabbinic approach, although there are some rabbis who would say that. But the mainstream approach is really, it's just this intense feeling of guilt and shame. When someone dies, if, you know, God forbid my close relative, if a close relative of mine died, I would say what's called the cottage, which is a prayer that mourner say for the departed. you only say it for 11 months. And then after those 11 months, you only say it once a year on the anniversary of their death. Why do you only say it for 11 months? Because there is a rabbinic tradition that the longest, the absolute longest, that a soul can be in Gahenum, can be in essentially what is hell, is 12 months.

So we don't want to imply that our departed loved one is an evil person and is spending the full 12 months in hell. They're only doing 11 months, which is why we only say, Kaddish, up to 11 months. having said that there are exceptions. So the classic question when people learn that Jews don't believe in like in infinitel is when, you know, what about Adolfs? I guess. I knew you were on there. So there are exceptions. Don't you worry. There are exceptions.

But ultimately, God is the calculator of calculations. He is the ultimate one who divvies up judgment. So we're not entirely clear as to what that process would look like. And in fact, the Gemara Maseches Brachos, I think it's a lot. on the dollar, page 34, they talk about how the biblical prophets were able to know to a certain extent the messianic age, but Olam Hab of the next world, even they don't really know. And Maimonides and Nahmonides, 100 years later, and they often don't agree, but they sort of agree on the approach that, yes, no one can definitively say what Olamhab of the next world is because no one's actually been there. So we do know there will be a resurrection of the dead. Now, what does that literally mean? Because Judaism, in some cases, actually believes in Gilgolim, which means reincarnation. Again, it's not a main, focal point of our religion. It's not a mainstream approach, but some of our most revered

rabbinic figures like the Ariseal has an actual whole book called Seyfer Hag Gilgulim. Well, he'll just talk about who was reincarnated into what. So what does it mean that there's a resurrection? Will there be death after resurrection? What will we be doing? So there are those debates, but ultimately we know that it will be an intense cleaving to God, an intense awareness of peace on earth, of ultimate knowledge and truth. It's not a, you. It's not a, physical or materialistic heaven and or hell. So we don't believe in the fire and brimstone, really. But we also don't believe in, you know, 72 virgins because this life is a physical life

and physicality is also limited, whereas the highest level of pleasure is one that is sublime because it is spiritual. How bad is anti-Semitism today? Is it getting worse? Like, tell me a little bit. My viewers, listeners might not recognize, and I'm not asking, you know, to get into details, but you were at Harvard Divinity School. You successfully sued for anti-Semitism, so you made your case there. How bad, I'm not asking so much about Harvard, so to speak,

but have you seen it increase in your lifetime and how bad is it now? It's not that I've seen it increased in my lifetime, it's that I've seen it in my lifetime, which I never thought would happen. Up until October 7th, I was born in the United States. I'm an American, I'm only an American. I had never experienced anti-Semitism before in my life. October 7th was the first time I ever experienced it, both on a national scale and then personally. And in fact, 90%... Not October 8th, October 7th, the day of the attack. Oh, yeah, that's an important distinction because people sort of create this or concoct this narrative whereby, well, it was only after Israel conducted its genocide in Gaza.

That's when all, you know, people start turning on the judge. That's not even true. On the night of October 7th, I can show you screenshots of classmates of mine at Harvard University who were posting in a student WhatsApp group, pictures of Hamas terrorists on top of Israeli tanks with captions, Victory is ours, glory to the martyrs, globalize the intifada, glory to the resistance. This is on the night of October 7th. So, no, this was not, you know, months and weeks after the fact. But that's on a global scale, you know, personally I then experienced it, whether it was

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Search for King James Bible study, KJV, and download the app today. In secluded underpasses, whether Jews orchestrated 9-11 and then threatening me with machetes, whether it was anonymous trolls on social media, you know, telling me that they're going to kill me. I get death threats weekly at this point. On October 6th, I wouldn't even have the conception of what a death threat is. It's just such a silly concept. So no, it's pretty bad. And I will get a little political, which is we are filming this the day after Zoramam Dhani was just elected mayor of New York City. This morning, whatever the date is November 5th or 6th, Magin David Yeshiva, which is a storied Jewish day school in New York City. I actually spoke there a few months ago. They had swastikas painted all over the school building as of this morning. So this is just a day after Zora Mammani was elected. So I don't think American Jews had it this bad in probably the last 50, 60 years. You know, my parents left the United Kingdom to come to the United States, specifically because they escaped anti-Semitism. When was this? When did they leave? Oh, this was about 35 years ago.

And so my dad especially, who really experienced anti-Semitism, he was a visibly Jewish person, he's pretty horrified to see what's been happening. And I actually told him not to come to my graduation at Harvard. This is a year or two ago because I knew what was going to. to happen. They would be walkouts, globalized the intifada, you know, free pals. And I'd hold him not to come because not only was I embarrassed on a personal level, but I did not want him to see what the United States had become, because he came to the U.S., very idealistic. You can be anyone you want, you can do anything you want, you can serve anyone you would like. And I never once thought of my American identity and my Jewish identity as a contradiction. On the contrary, they were quite

complimentary. I'm very proud to say I'm both American and Jewish. And for the first time, we actually had to start thinking about where our priorities lie because if America turns on us, you know, where do we go and what do we do next? And that's obviously an extreme case. And I don't think we're at that point. And I love this country. And I love our president. And the best friends that Jews have are Christians, bar none. But it is definitely a conversation that every single American Jew has been having since October 7th. You know, what do we do if? Not when, but if things were to get really bad. why do people and historically this case hate the Jews so much where does that come from

I was going to make an anti-Semitic joke but I'm not going to that would be in poor taste we can make those jokes but you know they the other side can't yeah I get fired if I make one I would say this and again this is this is leaving the political arena and going back to spirituality and theology the Hebrew Bible prophesized that so long as Jews are in exile which currently are. Even if we want to say Jesus is the Messiah, we are living in exile because we don't have a third temple. We do not all live in the land of Israel. Jews are in exile. The Hebrew Bible says, so long as you are in exile, you will be a scattered people, which for the most part we are, we live all over the world. You will be a small people, which we demonstrably are. In fact,

there are less Jews alive today than there were on the eve of the Holocaust. We still are roughly a million Jews short. Yeah, yeah. There's about 15 million Jews today. And in 1939, there were 16 million Jews. I mean, there are very, very few Jews alive. Which, by the way, I'm forgetting who, but someone was on Joe Rogan's podcast, and he asked Joe Rogan, you should guess. How many Jews do you think they're on planet Earth? And he said, a billion. No, it's less than a billion.

Okay, half a billion. He said, no, no, it's 15 million. A billion who guessed. We're a very, very small religion. And I always talk about Mormonism as a great example of this. So the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was started in the 1830s and really took off as a church in, like, 1860s. there are more Mormons today than there are Jews, and Mormonism hasn't even been around for 150 years, which really qualifies what I think the validity of the Hebrew Bible.

You will be a small people, check. You will be a scattered people, check. And then the third thing is you will be a hated people. Double check to that one. And so I've actually seen God manifest in this world post-October 7th than I have ever seen God manifest in this world. What do I mean by that? Yeah. If you go back to December 6th of 2023, the congressional hearing on anti-Semitism, where three of the leading morally bankrupt individuals in the United States, Claudine Gay, the president of Harvard, Liz McGill, the president of the University of Pennsylvania, Sally Cormwood, the president of MIT.

They are asked, under oath on live TV in front of Congress by Elise DeFonic, do the calls for genocide against Jewish people violate your code of conduct? And we worked with the House Education Committee on some of these questions, so I can tell you and your listeners. that was not meant to be a trick question at all. The trick question was meant to be the follow-up, which is now that you've said, yes, of course, these violate the code of conduct, how come you've allowed the calls for genocide? But remarkably, one president after the other insists,

it actually depends on the context. And mind you, these are institutions of higher learning that rank dead last when it comes to free speech, that have safe spaces and trigger warnings and disinvite controversial speakers. I mean, Harvard was literally ranked 248th, out of 248 American universities by the foundation for individual rights and expressions

when it came to free speech. But all of a sudden, when it comes to anti-Semitism, no, you could call for the genocide, just depending on the right context. And Congresswoman Elise Daphonic, she asks them a second time, and you should watch the tape, which is the most watched congressional testimony

in American history, 1.8 billion views. She literally says, and I quote, this is a softball question, I will give you a second chance to respond. And for the second time, each president, one after the other, insists it really does depend on the case. context. And to me, that was, as you said earlier, the Atsba Elohim. That was the hand of God,

of God saying you will always be a hated people, and I'll prove it to you. I'm going to get three presidents of what was meant to be the moral beacons, not just of American society, but of Western civilization. On paper, the smartest people, the most intellectual, the most sophisticated. And God says, watch what I'm going to get them to say. They are going to say, under oath on live TV in front of Congress multiple times that you call for the genocide of Jews. That to me exemplifies and proves the validity

of God's work because he had said 3,000 years ago, so long as you are in exile, you will be small in number, yes. You will be scattered, yes, and you will be hated. And in fact, the Zohar, which is the book of Jewish mysticism, it's Kabbalah, it actually says that anti-Semitism is God's reminder to the Jewish people that we are, in fact, a unique

people. And the more of the Jews try to assimilate, the more Jews try to take off their keep us and try to be like, just like everybody, else, anti-Semitism comes along and says, no, no, no, you are not like everybody else. That does not mean you are better, you're not better, but you're different. You have a different responsibility. So you as a Christian, Jews would say you only have to keep seven laws, the seven Noah Hyde laws, which most people keep just by virtue of being alive. Like, don't kill, okay, don't eat the limb of a live animal. Okay, set up courts. Like, you pass all of these things

just by being born. Whereas Jews, we're not better, but we have a different obligation. For us, it's not seven, it's 613. And so the more we try to say that, well, no, no, no, we're just the same. Anti-Semitism comes along to remind us, no, you're not. You have a very different purpose and mission in this world. I would agree with you that part of anti-Semitism, there's a spiritual component to it. I think also just some of the success that Jews have had creates envy amongst so many people. I think that's a piece of it.

But so it sounds like you're saying, in some of the United States, some ways anti-Semitism ironically. I don't think I've ever heard somebody make this point is a reminder of God's promises and it helps keep Jewish identity and not to just blend in with the world, which was commands gone all the way back to the time of Abraham and of course Moses, anti-Semitism in some sense functions that way with Israel and has over time. Yeah. And in fact, there have been, there have been leaders during what's called the Hascala, the Enlightenment in the mid-1800s, who essentially said if you want to escape anti-Semitism, just assimilate, you know, take off the keepers and just either convert or just become

a westerner. And that clearly didn't work. I mean, the Holocaust was probably the best reminder of that. But no, the more you try to do that, the less acceptable you will be. And it's interesting because on a political level, I see that on a daily basis, the far left, they have called me a white supremacist more times than I care to count, whereas the far right, they don't think I'm white. They think I'm a Jew, and they hate me because I'm not white. we were killed in the Holocaust because we weren't white, but today we have white privilege. So it's totally irrational. And I agree with you that part of the reason why we might be hated is because, yes, historically,

we've been oppressed and victimized, but we don't really see ourselves as victims. And in fact, we've really bounced back since the Holocaust. I mean, not to sound conspiratorial, but we are in every single field in American life, whether it's entertainment and media, sports, culture, politics. Jews really do have an outsized influence. It's not because we control things. It's because we put a really serious emphasis on education. and professional success and making something of yourself.

And I would encourage anyone listening to do the exact same thing. Send your kids, not to public school. Send your kids to schools where your values are totally aligned, where they will encourage and challenge your kids to be the best versions of themselves. Don't cater to the lowest common denominator. That's not just a Jewish approach. Every parent should be doing that.

But yes, even though that anti-Semitism is a spiritual orchestration, the way in which God manifests it is through practical means. So part of it is diversity, equity, inclusion, for example. Part of it is the victimhood mentality. You know, the Nick Fuentes is saying, well, I can't get a wife, I can't hold a steady job, I can't be professionally successful because, you know, something, something the Jews. Yeah, there are political reasons for it, but ultimately it's because God is orchestrating that on a grandiose scale. And sorry, and let me make one last point, which is why, as much as yes, if people know who I am,

it's probably because I sued Harvard for anti-Semitism. But truth be told, I really don't define myself by anti-Semitism. And it bothers me on a personal level. I don't like getting death threats. I don't like when people are mean to us. But I have to say, it doesn't really phase me. What I'm way more concerned about is these six million Jews today who've never walked inside of a synagogue,

who can't learn the Hebrew Bible because they can't speak Hebrew, have never been to Israel. They're not proud of their identities. That is what concerns me way more than anonymous trolls on Twitter saying, we're going to kill you. And that's why I feel so blessed to have friends like you and universities like this one that really challenge people to recognize that.

God's law is not something you learn or study. It's also something you live on a day-to-day basis. As I said, America would be a much better country. And by the way, the Jewish people would be way better off if more Christians lived by the New Testament, serve their Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and really believed in that on a day-to-day basis. Well, I will definitely amen that one, that's for sure. In our age of critical theory, oppressed versus oppressed, Jews certainly don't have an oppressed mindset whatsoever or an oppressor mindset. I think it's amazing that we're in the middle of a concern about the birth, dearth, not having babies, and like Israel's leading the world with almost three something per

women, like that's remarkable. And by the way, I'm one of seven, which is fairly, yeah, which is fairly typical for my American Orthodox community. I mean, I know people who are one of nine, so this is pretty, it's pretty normal. I wish more evangelical Christians would follow that lead. So two last, two last questions. Maybe I keep saying that. But why are, Why are Christians and Jews not having this kind of conversation that you and I just had or are having more often? Oh, man, that's a great question. I don't know if I'm qualified to speak about why Christians aren't doing it. I mean, there certainly are Christians who are doing it, such as yourself and your son.

Certainly Reverend Johnny Moore, who I was with just a few nights ago. Certainly the Christians United for Israel, the Philo Project. So there really are great organizations and great Christians who are doing it. Certainly there should be more. Don't get me wrong. In terms of why Jews aren't doing it, that's probably within my lane that I can answer. It's probably twofold. First and foremost is we are taught, and this is biblical law as well, that not that we are better, but we are different.

So, for example, Jews, by biblical law, are not allowed to go inside of a church. Forget about that we can't worship inside a church. We literally cannot enter a church. So there has been—I didn't know that. Oh, yeah. So there has been—it's called—I think it's called Khukasahamim, but I could be wrong. It's essentially it's a term whereby we should not be like the other nations, especially when it comes to issues of religion. Again, not that we're better, but it's just we are Jews and you be Christians and we'll be Jews in our synagogue and you'll be Christians in your church.

Sure. And so there is just a natural through our religious tradition, a natural, I wouldn't say aversion, but clear lines of demarcation between where Jews are meant to go in what spaces and what areas of life. So that is number one. And then number two, just historically, Jews live. living under Christian countries historically did not have very good lives. We can talk about the Inquisition. We can talk about the Crusades. We can certainly talk about the Holocaust. We can talk about communism, which, to be fair, communism was not Christians, but it was done in predominantly Christian countries. So there is historically a lot of trepidation and concern over,

you know, a thousand years of persecution at the hands of Christians. That is true, and we should not whitewashed that history, and it's a history that both parties have to contend with. But what is also true is we are living in a very different age. We are living in a very different society, and we also have very different enemies. And as I think I said earlier, the best friends that Jews have, whether it's in the United States, whether it's in Israel, anywhere in the world, the best friends that Jews have are Christians. And I remember an excellent speech that Reverend Johnny Moore gave about a year ago, where he said, in front of a room of rabbis and Jewish educators, he said, you may, referring to us as the Jews. You may not like that we pray for you, and that's okay, and we're still going to pray for you.

And I think that's awesome. And shame on us as Jews who are not willing to acknowledge that Christians are not seeking to proselytize or to convert. They're simply wanting to be our friends and our neighbors and our family, and we must reciprocate and recognize, in Hebrew, it's called Takarasatov, show gratitude to our Christian friends. I remember, and big shout out to the Christians United for Israel, Kufi. I remember speaking at the Kufi Summit. I've been speaking there for the last two or three years. I hope they invite me back. And a young... Cuffi, say that what it is for people that we know.

Oh, Kofi. The Christians United for Israel, they are Pastor John Hagee's organization that fights for the land of Israel and Judeo-Christian values. They have knights to honor Israel all over the United States. And I've been speaking at their conference the last couple of years. They have a Kufi on campus division, which is deeply concerned about the rise of anti-Semitism, and they mobilize young Christians to speak out against it. And my, I don't know, second year speaking there, a young girl comes up.

comes up to me after my speech, and she hands me a gold coin with Jesus's picture on it, which is definitely the first gold coin with Jesus' picture I've ever been gifted. I haven't been given one of those just for the record. Well, you're missing out, man. I didn't really know what to do with it, but I was so flattered. And the fact that people would stop me because they see my keeping, they say, you know, we're praying for you. I mean, oh, my gosh, that's incredible. How lucky I am to have friends like that.

I mean, I've been speaking at so many Jewish organizations, and I'll just give you a quick, funny anecdote. Sure. And when I speak at Jewish organizations, oftentimes there's not even kosher food. I mean, shame on the established Jewish community. Every time I've spoken at Kufi and other Christian organizations, not only has there been kosher food, but the funny story is when I first spoke at Kufi, I took the red eye from L.A. to D.C., and I show up to my hotels like 2 a.m. and I'm hot and tired and don't smell my best, and I open the door of my hotel room. and there's a gift basket waiting for me

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Feel God's presence in every notification. Search for Daily Bible app on Google Play and begin your day with hope, purpose, and peace. A note by Pastor John Aggie himself, saying we're so sorry Shabbas with Jewish students are experiencing. We pray for our hostages, not the hostages. You know, God bless the Jewish people. And the gift basket is not only exclusively kosher food,

it's exclusively kosher for Passover food. And mind you, this is like in July. and, you know, Passover is like May. And I'm like, wow, this exemplifies how lucky we Jews are and how lucky I am to have such wonderful people. And yes, we have obvious theological differences, which is why I'm Jewish and you're Christian and never the two shall meet or whatever. But that does not mean we can't have excellent personal relationships and recognize the

humanity and godliness within the other. And I think Jews need to be way more proactive about establishing these relationships. and as I said, shame on the Jewish community who don't do this. Way more Jews need to be lifting up and amplifying and thanking the brave Christians, the men and women and young people who've stood up for us. And as I said, we have literally no better friend on planet Earth than Christians, in particular Christian Americans. I appreciate the way you interpret Christians praying for you

and Christians who would witness to you out of the goodness of their heart and based on what they believe and interpreting it in the lens that you did. I think is great. Promise, last question. This is your, I didn't know you couldn't go into a church. That's interesting to know. But you're on Biola University's campus. What was it like?

What was going through your mind as you're pulling into an evangelical school, Taoist school of theology? This is my studio. And how did people treat you? And what did you see being here? Well, a lot of people were confused. I think they probably thought I went on the wrong campus, took a wrong turn. I was getting a lot of looks with the KIPA.

And in fact, one person did actually stop me and asked if I was a messianic Jew, which I had never been asked that before. But again, I guess in context, it sort of makes sense. You know, being on a Christian university with a Kippa, it probably raises a few eyebrows. So I was stunned, and I'm actually glad that I parked in the wrong parking lot because it gave me a lot of time to walk here and pass all these buildings. I am stunned in a very complimentary, positive way that this university has on their building walls pictures of Jesus and quotes of the New Testament. and reminding these students who are walking to class that you are a child of God. I mean, what an incredibly uplifting message to be telling young people. And I wish that Jewish universities, there aren't that many,

but Jewish universities like Yeshiva University, like Turo University, would have biblical paintings of maybe not Jesus, for obvious reasons, but paintings of Moses and Abraham and Sarah and Rebecca and quotes from the Hebrew Bible and reminding them time in and time out that you are a child of God and you're not here merely to take classes in a vacuum, but you're here to take classes to advance the causes of Western civilization for Judeo-Christian values for the Jewish people. That would be such more of an uplifting message

than constantly talking about anti-Semitism. So I was really taken aback by being on this university, and I hope this is the first of many visits, not just to this university, but other Christian universities. And, you know, it's quite clear that Harvard and Columbia and Penn and UCLA do not have a monopoly on intelligence. They do not have a monopoly on good-paying jobs. They certainly don't have a monopoly on morality or religious integrity.

And I think it's a really good idea and a good thing that we are seeing an increasing share of the American people going to universities that align with their values. So if you're a Christian, as I've been saying time and in time again, go to church, go to universities that want Christians and don't scorn and denigrate your beliefs. Be the best Christian that you can possibly be. And I think this university, just in the hour or so I've been here, does that to a really, really large and good degree. You know, people are probably given a double take because as I think about it, I'm not sure I've seen people walking around with yarmacos on our campus. Yes. We've had a few dialogues, debates in the past, but just somebody walking around who looks like older than could, but maybe be a grad student or something like that gave people a pause. But I guarantee you if you come back and I hope you will, we could bring in an audience.

Students would ask you questions. They'd be so interested. They'd want to know about your life. And we could have some of the conversations we had here. even probing further. So I guess I said last question, but how can people follow you the work you're doing? And tell me when the podcast my son I did is maybe coming out. Sure.

Well, I can start with that one. I don't know. We are starting a show at Prager You called Theological, which you and your son have been on, incredible guests and incredible episodes. It is in development. It's in production. So stay tuned. I hope to have a published date soon, but I don't know.

That's the short answer. People can follow me on Twitter and on Instagram. Just type in my name, Shabbas Kestenbaum. There are no other Shabbas Kestenbaum, so I am the first and only one that will pop up. I typically post about religion and politics, so you can find me complaining there. I complain a lot on Pierce Morgan Show a lot, so you can find me there as well. But if you don't want to follow me, I don't blame you, but you should follow is professor, pastor, Sean McDowell. You should certainly follow your Bible.

You should certainly follow your professors, because as I keep saying, America would be a much better country if people were, you know, to think biblically. That's a great mic jot moment. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Hey friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that follow button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning in haven't done this yet,

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