The Sean McDowell Show - A Pakistani Muslim TRANSFORMED by Christ (w/ Aisha Borden)

Episode Date: August 13, 2024

Why would a Pakistani Muslim become a follower of Christ and what did it cost for her professionally and personally? Aisha Borden grew up a Muslim but everything changed when she experienced a dream with Jesus that rocked her world. READ: More Than A Carpenter, by Josh and Sean McDowell (https://amzn.to/3W1kSch) WATCH: Christian Apologist Sits Down with Muslim Imam (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRUyIRhda9g) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: @sean_mcdowell Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org

Why would a Pakistani Muslim who grew up in Bronx, New York, become a Christian? How has her life been transformed by Jesus, and what does it cost her personally and professionally? Our guest today is Aisha Borden, and she has an incredible story to tell. I was talked a lot. The next thing I noticed were scars on the wrists. The Lord showed me a vision of a white road. I didn't know where I stood, but I definitely knew that Jesus is the truth. Thanks for joining us. Absolutely. It is an honor and just excited to share what God has done and is continuing to do.

Well, we're going to really unpack your story, which is incredible on so many levels. But in many ways, it seems to start with your dad, who was born in Pakistan into a Muslim family. Maybe tell us about his life growing up, his family, who he was, and then we'll get to your story coming out of that. Absolutely. Well, I mean, my dad grew up, like you said, in Pakistan, Lahore, actually, specifically. And he grew up in a very military dense home. So his father was one of the trade officers between India and Pakistan. And even before that, my grandmother was born in India and migrated to Pakistan because of the apartheid and because they're Muslims, you know. And with that, they traveled all over the country because of his job.

And my dad is the first of after six sisters and first son and two other sons. So big family, very big family okay so what is the significance of being the first son either from either pakistan or just in in the muslim tradition yeah well in the whole like middle east tradition men are considered the obviously the head of the household but a first son that you're passing down the seed to your family lineage. So you're just considered a king. You're considered there's a hierarchy involved.

So even for me, I am the first daughter of the first son. And I even have a title named Baji in my immediate household and my extended family. I have more authority because of my birthright of my lineage so when i tell someone to do something like just growing up they would listen whether they were older than me or much younger than me because of who i was born to and my dad and he would i mean his sisters would tell me stories that nothing was everything was given to him up until he was two years old he didn't really

do anything to get anything so he just was treated like a king you know um first son after so many daughters and it's still very much the same um mentality of just men being more prized than the women. Okay. Do you have a sense of how far back the Muslim tradition goes in your family? I do not even know that. I just know that my grandmother was married off before she was 10 and married my grandpa. Yeah.

Okay, so I think I'm tracking. When you say you say married off this had been your great-grandparents decided before she was 10 she was going to get married or she actually got married before she was 10 she got married at 9 years old Wow and had babies all her life yeah okay so as far as you're aware the Muslim tradition goes back far in your family and there's no Christians or others that you've heard of but your dad was born in Pakistan he moves before he was married so you were born in somewhere in America in Nework is that true yes and in new york yes that's where he met my mother okay gotcha so let's talk a little bit about what your family was like growing up and what in fact let me take a step back what did you why did he come to america and what job did he do when he

came here it sounds like he had a pretty good influential position in Pakistan? He did. My grandpa was very, very well off. They have multiple homes out there still to this day, big family. And he knew his siblings, some of his siblings were already in the States. So he moved out here to make a name for himself and he said if I can't make it here I'll come back and marry whoever you want me to marry because he was he was given you know multiple options and multiple you can marry multiple women in Islam so he was given that that was a backup option and in the midst of that he met my mom so as far as like what he started doing professionally, whatever he could do from washing dishes to being a chef, like all in between

to make it in the United States. So yeah, he became an entrepreneur, essentially. Oh, wow. That's, that's really interesting. So he met your mom. Tell me a little about your mom and her background Yeah, very opposite as far as the Pakistani lifestyle and my mother was born of Puerto Rican descent so my grandmother was born in Puerto Rico and I know her parents were born in Spain so when The migration happened with the slave trade that kind of developed that certain lineage so it's African and Spaniard so my back on my mom's side there they were slaves from just like two three generations and migrated to the yeah New York City so now your mom's background would not have been

Islamic then was she culturally Catholic what was her background yes so she grew up Catholic and it was very traditional Catholic I want to say more of this Santeria side of things because of the idolatry going on and i mean my grandmother she's with the lord now but she prayed to the saints and she still had a relationship with jesus she loved jesus very much and when my parents initially met my mom didn't really have any hold in that the culture of Catholicism so she did convert but her background itself was complete opposite my dad grew up really well off and wealthy my mother grew up poor rock so when she met my dad it was a very stark different lifestyle of having you know different exposed to different culture different type of foods, you know, different exposed to different culture,

different type of foods and all kinds of things. So, I mean, from my understanding, I just know my mother just knew she was going to have security while being with my dad and like her whole, like her side of the family, they were okay with her being with a man, you know, that didn't look like her and had a completely different religion.

So, but I don't, I'm not sure of her real core beliefs of wanting to say that she grew up, like really invested in her Catholic beliefs, mainly because she did convert to Islam. So, gosh, I have so many questions for you this is interesting but maybe just maybe jump ahead to what your life was like growing up so it's a Muslim family would you say it was culturally Muslim how serious did your dad and your mom take their faith I would say nominally nominally Muslim growing up but when I got older and I started causing problems in the home, it became very radical. Very radical. When you say causing problems, are we jumping ahead to when you started believing in Jesus? Okay, that makes sense.

That's interesting. I'll hold that thought because we're going to get there and cover that story. So you guys are really more culturally Muslim than than anything else did you dress differently school did they just let you dress like people did in that era in the bronx well we moved down to northern virginia when we started kindergarten so my mom my dad's side of the family most of his siblings had moved down here which where i still live here in northern virginia near my family still but so i grew up in a very i mean woodbridge virginia specifically and it's very multicultural and diverse like still to this day very much like new york so i've been around so

many cultures and backgrounds thoughts way people look like multiiracial couples, it's been always a thing growing up in the area I live in. So it didn't feel weird, mainly being biracial, right? I didn't have this idea of, okay, I'm this and this. It was just, I'm a person. And that's how my parents raised us. And, but as I got a little bit older, you know, you could see people act a certain way. And, but on the flip side, really, I have a twin sister. So her and I would be together like all the time. And it's funny because she looks Puerto Rican and I look more Indian. So it's very cool. People don't believe we're related because we don't look at all like we're related. We don't look, we look completely opposite. So, I mean, just my, like, basically like in the home, it was very strictly traditionally Muslim.

But when I would go out into school, public school, I grew up going to public school. It was very like, yeah, we're cool. But it was very strict in the home. So we weren't allowed to date. We weren't allowed to really have friends that were guys, you know. It was hard because we went to the public school. So it was kind of hard not to be exposed to so many different people. And it really caused, I wanna say like a stream of rebellion really early on because I didn't really want to do the things

my parents wanted me to do. And I mean, I was good academically, took pre-college courses in high middle school, like super smart, but the home life was very toxic, very toxic. And I knew it was toxic from as long as I can remember being very toxic because of how my dad you know his mindset about controlling the home the atmosphere and his rules no I don't want

to push beyond where you're comfortable but using a word toxic that's like a trigger word yeah and unpacking what that meant and what that looked like absolutely absolutely I want to expose it right I have no problem because it this is this is a serious issue with the culture of control it's a very serious serious issue of control and it's more of my way or no other way and no tangible explanation to explain to like for an example for a rule like why can't I have friends that are guys I know why because they don't want me to fall into sin they don't want me to fall into you know having kids before marriage like all these different things i knew was it made sense and it makes sense like absolutely however

i don't go to a girl's school so how is it possible for me not to congregate with other people that are not that are male right and it caused a real root of me not being able to communicate good with men for a long time. And it was really a disservice because there was no explanation. For example, there was a rule my dad had, my sister and I, we grew up singing in choir. That was our extracurricular activity.

And we did that together. And one time we had a tour with our high school or middle school group and it was out of state in New York, out of all places where family could meet us. And my dad said, no, in the Quran, it says you cannot travel out of state to do extracurricular activities. It says it. So those are all the type of rules i was just

smacked with all the time and i questioned all of those things in my mind because i couldn't question it outwardly because you would know how dare you question my authority right it's just the way it is so very very uncomfortable home life mainly because it felt like i was walking in eggshells every day and whatever mood my dad was in everybody had to be in you know he was in a good mood everyone's good if he comes home in the bad mood, everyone's just waiting to make sure we don't trigger him even more. And unfortunately he had his vices of alcohol and drugs and um, and pornography. So that was a real, that was a, that was, that was very known in our home. Like my brother, our brother, younger brother, my mom and my sister, we knew my

dad had those vices and we didn't have any of those things, right? We didn't have any way to express the pain that we were going through other than each other. So it was very chaotic in our home. And if something was put on the table incorrectly in a certain way, then we'd get slapped. And my mother would just sit and just watch this abuse go on because I know he was abusive towards our mother because we tried to leave multiple times all throughout my whole life growing up. We tried to leave, run away, never happened until I did eventually, right? But it was a pattern of not feeling safe in my home. Thanks for sharing that. So sorry you had to go through that. It's heartbreaking just

to hear. Looking back, do you attribute some of that control and that abuse to just the person that your dad was? Because there's plenty christians who will cite bible verses and control and take stuff out of context or do you look at and say it's the person he was and there's something within islam that lends itself to that kind of control how do you see it absolutely it's first spiritual right it's first spiritual it's first spiritual. So my dad, you know, grew up being told you're a man, you have everything you need to your disposal, maids coming in and taking care of him. Like that was just the lifestyle my dad grew up with, but also the authority in Islam. Like if there are surahs that say you can lie to make yourself look good for the sake of other people, like, and not even

taking heed to other people's character your character is more important than someone else's character so you can lie you can fib you can cheat people to make sure you go out the ladder you're you look good you save face so unfortunately i was taught to lie i was taught to lie i was taught to pretend to be happy. I was taught to pretend to really bottle up my emotions and not really express myself because if I did, it wasn't encouraged. It was never encouraged to even say, how was your day? how are you feeling today? None of that was, it was no emotional connection. And then the spiritual aspect of it was my dad is God. And in a lot of terms, it was my dad being

the God of the home. And if I were to question anything about Islam, he would tell me, you're crazy, go read the Quran and you'll read, don't like your answers in the Quran. And I'm like, I don't speak Arabic. You know, I can read an English translation, but there wasn't really a, there wasn't really any comprehension in the questions I was relaying to my dad. Cause I'm like, why do we do what we do?

Other than it being culture culture there wasn't any explanation so very much a power trip and just being the authority because of being the man in the home and um but he definitely dictated a lot of our our conversations and what we did monitored everything, but I know this definitely there's a stiffly a spirit of just control and narcissism and any many as well Yeah, no, it's in high schools I understand that you really start to have questions and see things differently But before that time say junior high or maybe the start of high school would you have said yeah I'm a Muslim I believe this looking back do

you think you ever really believed it I did believe it but I didn't understand it all so with that you know I didn't wear the hijab growing up I wore the hijab when we went to the mosque. It was like twice a year, but family members would post prayers we'd go to. So our family, our whole family, like a lot of our family is in Northern Virginia. We'd get together, I kid you not, every week, if not every other week, something, like a birthday or a prayer or something.

So it would always be, you'd always be around and unfortunately with that we weren't able to share our feelings we're unable to share you know what we're going through in our home because I know other people were going through stuff too but you know the culture unfortunately as you share everything in the home in the Latin culture and in the Middle Eastern culture is the same you know you keep everything in the home in the latin culture and in the middle eastern culture is the same you know you keep everything in the family and but if you keep everything in the family nothing changes so that's why i'm here to share what has been has happened and what i pray to happen in the future so just a few more questions before we get to where your life started to turn upside down.

Did you have Christian friends at all before this time? Like, what was that like? How did you view them? Do you view them as heretics or just they're friends and they just see the world differently? I would say I respected them because my parents, you know, told us, you know, we believe in the Bible, but we don't believe that Jesus died. And we believe that Jesus is a prophet. So we respect him. We respect what he did.

We respect he did heal people. And he is going to come back and judge the world with Muhammad, with Abraham, with Isaac, you know, with Ishmael. All these people, Mary, you know. And we had actually had Christian neighbors for a long time growing up yeah it it was cool just because they were more open their home their home felt way different than my home i could definitely feel a difference there was a freedom there was it was just air the air was clear in their home and i could tell they genuinely enjoyed each other's company. They weren't just living in a home together because they're a family, but

they actually enjoyed each other's company and I, we loved hanging out with the kids. There were a few girls that were closer to my sister, our age, and another younger boy that was born later, closer to my brother too. So they lived, I think they lived near next to us. They were literally touching our gates. We were, our gate was touching each other or the land. And we hung out with each other animals every day and they brought us to church. I want to say one time for a VPS. Yeah. And it was just one day and they had like, I just remember them singing songs and reading scripture. They had me read something, but it wasn't like, I'm curious about this,

but I just knew that it was different. I knew that it felt lighter than the home life that I had in my bedroom, right, in my living room. And just, it just felt so different. It's like reflecting back. And I'm still in touch with some of those people, the family, and it's just so cool to, they know now I love Jesus. And Brenda, she was telling me, I was praying for y'all. I was praying for you guys. And, you know, I said, just keep praying because they need the Lord and they need to be set free. Right. But they love my family. I could tell that they enjoy their company. And as far as like still growing up in public school, I was

exposed to all types of religions and even our like small, like little group of people in high school, there was a Nepali guy, there was a Indian dude, you know, Pakistani guy, a white girl, a, you know, all types of people. And then me and Asya, we were like the mixture as well. So we were just all, everything was accounted for in our, excuse me, in our group. So I was just exposed to all that all the time.

And I thought it was, I enjoyed enjoyed that I enjoyed those kind of conversations you hinted at this a little bit earlier but did you ever just have questions about Islam or the Quran that didn't make sense that you asked about and how were those received from your dad or any mom or anybody else? Absolutely. So I remember one day, I think I was, I know I was in elementary school. I want to say I was like maybe six, very, very young. And I asked my dad, why are we here? Why are we here? It was a profound question coming from a six-year-old, you know, but I'm a thinker.

So it makes sense. And I'm a creative. So it just makes sense that your eyes are just so in awe of this world. But, you know, it's just like, why am I here? I see what's around me. And I knew that everything around me is worshiping God. But what am I here for? And I mean, I asked my dad

multiple times and he would look at me like I'm crazy and say, go read the Quran, go find all your answers in there. There wasn't a sit down, right? Okay. You're having these questions. Let's actually talk about this. There't dialogue right there is no vulnerability there's no um like i said emotional connection to these questions because i think everybody goes to those questions at any multiple times in their life like my what's my purpose like why am i here and um that's a valid question to ask right everybody has a purpose and no one's a mistake so there's a reason why you're here on this earth for the purpose that god's put on he wrote it on in heaven you know he had it all planned out for you to walk in your purpose so i just didn't know what

mine was other than this is what my purpose i thought my purpose was marriage i'm gonna get married and the cycle will just repeat so it was not good enough for me and i think as i grew a lot older i just didn't want to identify myself as a muslim just because of the lifestyle and then what the Quran said and then what the world had displayed. It was very hypocritical to what my dad was expecting of us and then what the world was expecting of us and then what I expected of myself. I didn't really know how to like bridge all that together to make my own choices mentally or I mean, could think of things but I couldn't execute it so it was very very confusing just growing up um saying I believe but I really did it you described earlier kind of the the toxic nature of your home and your dad had certain

outlets I mean how did you deal with this as you got into your teenage years? What was that? How did it affect you just mentally and emotionally? How did you deal with that or not deal with that? Music. Okay, okay. Very big, big deal. Still to this day, you know, I love to sing and use what this gift God's given me. Music has always been my friend.

And I grew up in the 2000s, like 80s, 90s, 2000s, and the punk rock scene, right? That was when music was good. Amen. Preach it. Music is trash now. It's so bad. I grew up with the, I got to say it, my kind of a romance, like Guns N' Roses, the Ramones, like all those like punk rock bands were my jam.

And I mean, now I don't even listen to that stuff. I have no desire to listen to it. I have zero desire for any of that music. However, if I listen to a song, it'll come back, right? But what it really did for me, brother, was help me actually feel what it was feeling inside. It helped me like emotionally just bring it out to the open when i would listen to a song that talked about depression or i would listen to a song that just talked about the pain about heartache or pain about rejection or pain about just not liking who you are or wanting to love somebody and you couldn't love them and all these like different things of just feeling trapped and those songs those bands became my friend in like so much

sense of the way and as I like I got more darker in my music like more screamo and punk and I would have posters all over my wall at one I would have posters all over my wall at one point I had posters all over my wall of all the bands I loved and my dad clicked one day and he said you need to stop listening to this stuff it's messing with your mind and you need to take everything down so he forced me one day that was such a such a sad day because that was my my room, my own bedroom. To express who I am. And it was literally torn apart and it caused my depression to get worse.

So that kind of tipped me to a darker side mentally really yeah i could i could see that that that makes sense so you're at the spot things are are dark you have questions not looking forward to the future that you expected in your family and in your faith at that time what was the first moment where you thought maybe Islam is not true and you entertained Christianity how did what took place I don't think I ever entertained Christianity until I had a counter with God with the Lord so really it wasn't a thing it wasn't um okay i need to change what i believe i just knew there was a god i just didn't know who right i didn't know i didn't feel like i had um a dialogue or being heard by god because of all the rituals, you know, with Islam, like washing and praying

a certain time and praying literally in a language that I don't understand. So that was just even growing a more distance between Allah and me and not really feeling that I can come up to the place of having an answer or having an intimate dialogue with who made me. So it just made me feel really cold. How old were you? I want to say really my whole upbringing I felt that way. That I was just distant. Because you have all these expectations of what you do.

And the mindset as well, like you wanna be a good kid growing up and you wanna make sure you represent your family right. I mean, I never really caused problems growing up. It wasn't like I was rebellious in a sense that I wanted to shame my family. It was, I just wanna be a kid. I literally just wanna go and be a a child I wasn't allowed to do

that it was very sheltered and I most the time I felt like even my thoughts were controlled because of the grip of just darkness in my home and it was just there was no, there was no escape. There was really no escape. So how old were you when you had this experience? And what kind of experience are you talking about? The best moment of my life, to be honest. I, well, I mean, I know like when I was in elementary school, I did tell my parents that I felt suicidal. And I had been feeling like that for a number of years, mainly because of the chaos in the home.

There was no, we had everything we needed. But again, the emotional instability was just too much. And I took my parents aside and I said, I have my, something's going on in my mind. I don't want to live. I feel like I want to die. And they looked at me. It was like, why you have everything you need. You know, you're not lacking anything. If you need something or you want something, we'll give it to you like no problem but I said I really don't feel like I want to be here at all and I was probably like nine like really really young when I had that conversation so and I think that's I want to say that's when I first verbally said that out loud to my parents.

So tell me about this experience. I think you're in high school where it just transformed you. What was that experience where you really encountered God? Yeah. I want to say my, I try to like say I was in 12, mainly because like middle school, because I know it was before September 11th. I know it was before that, because things shifted so much after that day. So, and my maiden name used to be Husan.

So it was very intense having that name. And I was ready to get rid of that name quickly after that but um I know it was I was definitely in middle school during this time and it was years after I had told my parents hey I'm suicidal I don't want to be here I don't know why I'm here my purpose all these questions popping up in my head. And at the time, I was still sharing a room with my sister. So we didn't at one point she moved downstairs and I stayed upstairs in our main bedroom that we shared and we were still sharing a room. And I remember just laying in bed, right, just not being able to sleep.

And I remember my mother would tell us, if you can't sleep at night, talk to God. He's up all night anyways. And I'm like, that's, I mean, Muslims don't say that. That's not being close to what a Muslim would say. You don't dialogue with Allah. You just pray, you know, and you recite surahs. Like, that's it. There's no, like, there's a moment of freedom when you're finishing your prayer to open up more of your, you know, requests during prayer.

But that's just a short time. But there's no real, real like let's talk and communicate and what do you think of this and can i do this you know um as far as creator and creation and i had one like just couldn't sleep right and i had my first dialogue with God, but I didn't really know who I was talking to. But the first thing I said was, I hate you. I hate you. I genuinely felt that way because of the distance, the coldness, and the, even the reflection my dad gave me when it came to Islam, right, about the religion, about the culture and all that. It was just so cold and very opposite to my mother's side,

very bubbly and open and very charismatic and very touchy-feely and all about the feelings. And I just said, you know, I don't understand why I'm here. I know I'm meant to worship you, but I don't know who you are. So how do I worship you? And I'm thankful I've had that mindset my whole life because I just knew this world has is so beautiful but then there's still so much corruption going on inside your own heart right you know and I never understood why why is there so much beauty and then there's so much messiness in my own self? So with that, I just started honestly having a conversation with I don't know who was hearing me because I just needed to vent.

And at some point I said, I don't know who you are, but I hate you. You're not answering my prayers. I'm trying to pray for my family to get better I want my parents relationship to get better I want them to really show affection toward each other and me and my brother and my sister we don't we fight all the time we're fighting all the time there's no peace in my home and I feel so controlled and it's not fair and I'm trying my best I'm trying my best right to be a good Muslim girl to do all the things most to do and I just don't want to be

here anymore I don't want to just get married off but I just want to actually live a life that has a purpose and I said if you're Muhammad if you're Allah if you're Jesus if you're Mary you know if you're Krishna I went down if you're Buddha I went down the line and I said whoever you are show up show up that's a really bold question to say that to God yes it is what keep going so what happened so I had a contemplation I had a contemplation so I said this if you don't show up, my sister, my twin sister is going to find me dead tomorrow because I don't want to live. That was my contemplation.

If you don't show up, then I'll just die and not feel any more pain because I'm already in so much pain, right? To just not exist anymore. And I'll be better off anyways then my family will be fine I will be way better off than being here and out of that I just got really tired just that conversation was so heavy and the first really vulnerable conversation I had with anyone in my life. And I fell asleep. I fell into a very deep sleep because I experienced a dream. And in the dream, I realized I was in a white room and it was expanding in all directions

and then i felt an emotion come over me of peace and i had never experienced that before In my psyche, in my mind, in my body, I felt no fear, no anxiety, no depression, none of that. I just felt good. That felt like a relief. And I'm looking ahead of me, and front of me, there becomes a silhouette, becomes apparent. And again, I'm at peace. So I'm not scared. I'm not worried. I'm not, you know, freaked out about what's happening.

It just became more clear. And then I started seeing the cloak of the person in front of me. Their cloak was white and flowy it was really long and just like going everywhere and then i i saw arms opened up like this right and the next thing i noticed were scars on the wrists of the man in front of me and i immediately knew it was jesus i immediately knew it was jesus and in my mind he spoke to me right it was i i saw a beam of light coming before his where his head was and his hair was flowy and brown and so beautiful. I didn't see his face, but I saw a beam of light coming out of his face.

And now I know that I heard the voice of God. I heard the Father. I heard Jesus and the Holy Spirit speak to me at that moment. And the Lord said, give me your heart, Aisha, and I will love you forever. I didn't feel like I had anything to give the Lord because I felt like my heart was just crushed so many times in my home life and the world, my own mindset, my own mentality. And I just felt like it was just so,

so broken. And he still saw whatever I had in me was enough for him to love me forever. The exchange of my heart to him. And that response was love, that agape love, like unconditional love, no matter what, like, I will love you. So he said, give me your heart and I will love you forever. And in my heart, I know I felt hesitant because it just felt like it didn't feel like it was enough for that type of response, right? Like him, me to give him this, this heart that's messed up, this heart that's so hurt, this heart that's been stomped on, this heart that's so hurt this heart that's been stomped on this heart that's been abused that's been neglected a heart that's not heard it's not poured

into it's just completely broken and that this broken heart, this broken mind and broken person, the exchange of me giving my brokenness to God, to the Lord, and his exchange was life forever. I never heard of that, right? I never heard of that, that even being an option. And I woke up right and i went down to my knees and i said jesus you are lord i believe i believe i give you everything i give you my life, not only my heart. I literally give my life to you because that love, I need it. I need that love. And then immediately the Lord opened my eyes with supernatural understanding of the Bible. Literally from Genesis to Revelation, the Lord downloaded an understanding of what this beautiful love story has for the world. But he downloaded understanding of the gospel. He downloaded an understanding of how everything became,

you know, from Genesis and what is to happen in Revelation and it was powerful it was a powerful encounter and then I started seeing in my own home a battle going on I saw in the spirit there were demons and angels fighting in my home and it was multiple battles going on there was a battle in fighting in my home. And it was multiple battles going on. There was a battle in my bedroom. There was a battle in the hallway. I could only see just in that top floor. And there's a battle in my parents' bedroom, right?

There's a battle in my brother's bedroom. There was a battle in every room in my own home of angels and demons fighting toe to toe and it made me understand why like the chaos of what was going on in my home it made me understand why that is why there's an unsettling here and that's why there's unsettling in the world that's why there's an unsettling in the world. That's why there's an unsettling of evil and good. There's a fight between the both of them. And I had a better understanding as to why everything was such a mess in my home life. So really like that, that changed everything that changed everything but it didn't really go

anywhere after that unfortunately okay so you're you're 12 years old when you have this first prayer to god you basically say i'm not going to live if something doesn't show up you pray to krishna buddha jesus muhammad that night dream, which as you know, so many former Muslims I've talked to and read about, just dreams and visions from every country in the world that I've heard of former Muslims. Somehow God just uses that to draw Muslims to Jesus. Very similar kind of message, similar all in white and the beauty description. So shows up transformative to you. It's like your eyes are open to see spiritual forces taking place in your home, but you're

only 12. Did you go to church? Did you go back to your life? Did you tell your parents what happened next? I kept it a secret. I was scary. It was so scary. Not the encounter itself, but the weight of it, right? It shook the core, me to the core. It shook my foundation. It shook my, what am I supposed to do with this information i didn't i don't even remember the our christian neighbors were living next door so i really couldn't tell anybody really i had no one to

say anything to do not even my own sister you know my own twin like couldn't share it and i felt like if I did, it would just cause more problems in the home when it was already unstable. And really, I just I had to just put it in the back burner, just knew I had an encounter, but I couldn't. I'm not a huge fan of the word process, right, because you just receive it. But I didn't have anyone to talk to to process what I just experienced it was it happened and my eyes are open and then I thought it was crazy right because there wasn't anyone to confirm and you know digest and um there was no church um option for me I mean there were two churches that I in the neighborhood I grew up in, there are two churches in the entrance of the neighborhood, but I wouldn't even dare try.

To go there. Let me go there. Let me see what happens, right? Nope. So yeah, it didn't, unfortunately, it was shoved really deep down in my, my psyche to kind of survive the home. So let's understand you're, you're understandable that you were 12 and these forces are going on. When, take me to the point where you're like, okay, now I'm a believer. What happened there?

And then after that, I want to talk about maybe what happened when you told some of your family I want to say it really wasn't until I actually did tell my parents what I experienced for me to really say this is an option this is definitely different than what I was taught. So I feel like my, my conversion happened in the midst of me debating about my beliefs and exposing what was going on in my heart. But there's a lot of details of that. Um, I don't, I don't, I can't really say I had a definite moment that I'm like, hey, I'm a Christian

right now, right? Fair. At that point. Okay, so maybe tell us when you did tell your parents. I heard your interview with Muhammad Faraday, and it sounds like it was pretty dramatic. I hate to have you enter back into that, but this is an important part

of your story yeah yeah I mean honest my brother like there's so much joy in this because God is good and I've been redeemed and I have nothing to hide I have nothing to hide at all like I'm free I haven't lied in a long time, right? I've been living in the group. I'm like, I don't have to pretend. I don't have to debate or question. I can go straight to the Lord. So when, before actually initially telling my parents, like what kind of led up to it was my parents found out I was dating a guy and

that's a big no-no you know as I said you know you don't date you don't talk but I was looking for affection I was looking for a connection with somebody and that rebellion that rebellion just came about and I they found out about that relationship and it really caused a standstill for my family to just pause. Okay, all our focus has to be on Aisha now. We have to fix this situation because she's basically dishonoring our family. She's dishonoring us by being in this relationship. How old are you, by the way, at this stage?

How old are you, like 16, 17 stage how old are you like 16 17 maybe yeah i want to say 17 18 like i was in that relationship for a year so like 16 17 18 like that time frame and um really young right and it was i knew it was going to come, right? I knew eventually, like, my parents will find out. But it really caused, yeah, like a standstill in my family. So one day, my dad was at work. My siblings were home with me, my brother, sister, and my mom. And they were just trying to figure out what are we going to do with Aisha? She's a mess, right? She's just going crazy right now. And we need to fix her. So

I didn't know what they were planning on thinking, but I just knew that I felt very vulnerable. I felt ashamed at the same time because I did lie to them. There was shame involved. I didn't really want to lie. I just wanted to feel a involved. I didn't really want to lie. I just wanted to feel a little bit of freedom. I wanted to feel a little bit of making my own decisions. And I was taught how to lie. So I was able to do that. I was taught really well to hide stuff.

And I was trained to do that. So I just kind of did what I was taught so um but one day my mom we were in the basement and my mom asked me so is there any other secrets that you have that we can talk about and I said yeah, there's one other secret. And I shared with them everything I had just shared regarding this amazing experience with the Lord. And I knew it was Jesus, right? Still at that moment, I knew it was Jesus. I knew that I didn't consider myself a Muslim, right? Really, I wasn't a Muslim. I knew I wasn't consider myself a Muslim, right? I didn't really, I wasn't a Muslim.

I knew I wasn't a Christian. Like, I didn't know where I stood, but I definitely knew that Jesus is the truth and is Lord because of the supernatural, you know, understanding that I received. And I told him that. I said, I experienced this dream when I was younger and it changed my perspective on what was going on in our home.

And I want to understand more of who Jesus is. That came out of my mouth. I was like, I want to understand more of who Jesus is. And my siblings are like shocked right and my and I openly just said yeah I just wanna I know that Jesus is the truth and I wanna I want to understand why he came to me why did he answer my question as far as who is god if you're this this this that and that and he showed up out of all of them why right and i wanted to know why did he come to me and why did he answer my my prayer and out of all these other options so my brother he got up and said you are no longer my sister i i disconnect myself from you. Jesus is not Lord. You're crazy. I disown you. And he walked away. And then my sister came, which was even harder actually, because being my twin, she said, you're crazy. Jesus is not Lord.

And I don't want anything to do with you. And walked away. Right. And then my mom came up to me, she walked up to me and said, why didn't you tell us when this happened? Why? We could have helped you understand that Jesus is not Lord and that this was crazy. Like, no, we could have helped you. You're wrong. And I looked at her and I said, you made a choice to leave Catholicism. You made that choice. Why can't I make that choice

to leave what we believe in here as a as an islam and me follow jesus right um you made that choice so why can't i make my own choice why do i have to do what you tell me to do right or believe what i what you believe do you even know why you believe? Like, there's still questions I ask my mom, like, why do you believe in this and this and that? And there is no definite answer other than, oh, we were gonna raise you Muslim, so I converted. Oh, I'm married your dad, so it was just easier for me to raise you guys Muslim, for me to convert.

Those are the only answers that I would get from her and it just wasn't enough it was just no meat to it there's no passion behind there's no conviction right there's just oh is this expected of me even though your dad would have married me even without converting because Muslims can marry women that are Christian and Jewish, right? Because the seed of the child, of the father, goes straight to the kid. So whatever the kid is, they're Muslim. They're born Muslim. Similar in Judaism. You're born as a Jew in a Jewish family.

You're Jewish. So very similar aspect you know, aspect. And I was just born into it, you know? And that was the question I asked my mom, like you converted, why can't I? Right. And that got her heated. That got her heated. So then waited, which seemed like years, for my dad to come home. And I remember sitting in the living room, looking out on the street, just waiting, thinking I'm gonna die tonight.

My dad was gonna kill me. I'd rather just kill myself again. Like just that mindset was coming through my brain again. Like I just might as well just die because I have no idea what's going to happen tonight. Like my, literally my siblings don't want to talk to me. And mom thinks I'm crazy too. I had nobody to lean on. I had nobody to lean on. And my, my anxiety was just so tense because of them finding out about the relationship and then this kind of conversation you know popping up after it was extremely tense very tense so um then

i think this part is very very important because yeah i believe this this part is just as important as when I had that dream with the Lord. So we had a family meeting. My dad got home, and my mom went to talk to my dad in the bedroom, closed the door, and I knew they were talking about me. I'm like, oh, I am the spectacle, right, of the family again. And it was just so overwhelming. And family meeting. All right. Another family meeting about Aisha.

And we're all sitting in the living room. My dad's standing. And he said, you need to renounce Jesus. Jesus is not Lord. Jesus is not God. You're crazy. You need to renounce him. And I said, no. I said, no. I don't know why I believe that Jesus is the way. I don't know, understand all of why I had this experience. It's not my fault that I had this dream, but he came to me. You know, Jesus came to me and showed up and I responded. So I want to learn more about who he is. I'm not telling him I'm a Christian or a Muslim. I'm not telling him I'm a Christian or a Muslim. I'm not telling him

a Christian, but I just want to understand as to what I experienced and why. So he then pulled me to the ground in front of my siblings and my mom and started punching me and kicking me in front of them. And thankfully, that was the second time I heard the voice, the voice of the Lord in that moment. And he told me, what you're experiencing right now, I have. Whoa. Yo.

That gave me so much assurance that I was heard without even like, I was heard. He saw what I was going through. Like I wasn't going through what i was going through in that moment being physically hurt by my own father in front of my siblings and my mom and no one defending me and he saw and he's like i'm right here i'm right here with you and he didn't stop my dad my dad didn't just just stop. When I heard the Lord tell me this, right? Even though I wanted that to happen, he just kept punching me and pushing me and kicking me. Like,

my face was messed up that day. And he eventually stopped. Cause I said, okay, relax. I'm not a Christian, right? I said that just for him to stop hitting me because he did not stop until I said, okay, I'm not a Christian. I can't say I definitely did not renounce Jesus, but I did say I'm not a Christian and that caused him to stop so that really that moment started my walk with the lord 100 that that started my all right lord you're speaking to me you're hearing what i'm going seeing what i'm going through and you're responding to the pain that i'm experiencing right now. All right, you're real.

You are real. And that started with a lot of debates with my dad and I, verbal debates. They brought my mom to the home to try to think myself out of the situation and mindset about who Jesus is. And it was a very, very stressful season of my life. That was all in the same time they were trying to marry me off. They said, we'll just marry you off so you're not thinking about Jesus all the time and you're not questioning your faith you're not questioning your culture

we can just marry you off easily like my family they're well off they could easily marry they could have easily married me off within a couple days i wouldn't be surprised right so they were like thinking of bringing suitors for me to choose from and i'm like what is happening right now? Man. Wild. And I just felt so trapped. I felt more trapped then than I did before. Because of the conversations, it would be getting so heated. We'd have family meetings and it was crazy.

It was crazy. You described feeling free now, but trapped then. Was there a stage where you finally just left and got out of there? What happened to finally move away from that situation? That's a whole other conversation, right? To go into detail because of the secrecy and just the, the lies I had to continue to live in to survive from the, the confusion that my family saw, like they saw there's so much confusion between me and them. It was literally me versus them for a good number of months.

And I just felt so detached from reality. I felt like this cannot be happening. This is like my worst nightmare. That person I was with broke up with me and like now I feel like I'm solely totally alone and I can't have no way to communicate my friends I have no way to like to really reach out for help and one day I reached out to my best friend at the time and and she said we'll just move in together like we'll just go get an apartment and you can just move out.

I'll get you and all this stuff. I'm like, great, let's do it. I need to get out of here. Right. And not just to like live my own life, but to feel safe. I didn't feel safe in my home. And I didn't know when I was going to get hit again. I didn't know.

I didn't have any more privacy. Like my parents didn't let me close my door. They let me go to the let me close my door they let me go to the bathroom but my door was wide open all from that point on there was no privacy I wasn't allowed to drive on my own I wasn't allowed to go to the grocery store by myself I wasn't given a phone my phone was taken away from me so I had no way to communicate with anybody as far as you know a way to escape so one day I my parents they brought us into another family meeting and my mom sat us all down and I said she said I have some very troubling news to share with you

very sad news to share with you guys very sad news to share with you guys. And I was relieved because I thought it was about me. I was like, okay. Whew, thought it was about me, right? And before my mom started speaking, the Lord showed me a vision of a white road. It was icy and there was a car that was totaled i said that's very interesting like what does that mean right and immediately my mother said unfortunately your friend victoria

just died in a car accident on her birthday and she flew out of the window of the car on an icy road I was like I've God braced me for that moment that was my best friend that we were planning on living together right we were planning on starting a life you know outside of our abusive homes outside of our toxic families outside of the expectations of acting a certain way and dressing a certain way and you know um being able to be free and that bridge was burned completely and that moment i just sat back and i said okay, I tried in my own physical way to make an escape plan. Like I reached out to her and now she's gone. I have no one to believe me. First of all, no one will believe me and no one would be willing to reach out to me or know what's going on.

You have to help me get out. You have to make the plan. I literally gave it to him and I said, I can't live here anymore. Not only because of my faith and this growing desire for you, but I physically can't live here because of the abuse. I physically can't communicate with my family because they're not willing to communicate with me in a, you know, a civil way because of this. That was completely like just raveling over and over. It was another threat. Okay. We're going to do this instead. If you're going to do this, we're going to put this barrier. If you're going to do this, we're going to put this barrier. If you're going to do this, we're going to do this instead,

you know, making things a little bit more tighter and uncomfortable for me to not even want to be there. So really that started my journey to actually leave my house. And, uh, long story short, really, that's like its own like whole thing, right? But we went to my cousin's, my best friend's funeral, right? And we went to the church and I felt that peace that I felt in that dream again. So that kind of, that solidified even more. All right, I'm going in the right direction. I'm, I'm, this is something that I need to put more attention on. Right. And that was that was another confirmation of what I knew was wrong, right? The culture and the upbringing and the mindset. So

I met some Christian missionaries at George Mason University. I was a student there and long story short, they helped me leave. They met up with me like every week. The first day I met them, I told them what was going on in the home as far as the abuse, as far as the confusion in my heart and just being in so much pain and not really understanding who Jesus is. So they started to disciple me and they started to teach me how to read the Bible. They taught me how to pray. They taught me the spiritual battle that was going on in my home, like understanding that this is not just your parents doing this to you. It's the devil

doing this to you. The devil has caused your family to grow cold towards God. And they don't know him intimately. That's why they act the way they act. That's why they treat you the way they treat you. That's why they're in such upheaval because you're going against what they believe in. And really, they were my safe haven. Those two guys were my dudes. I call them my dudes and you know they they gave me this Bible they have to this day this is my

best friend this is my best friend they gave us to me on March 30th of 2009 he gave this Bible to me and I told them when they gave it to me I said I'm not gonna open this Bible until I leave my house I promise you I will never open this until I leave my home because I didn't want my parents to find this Bible or see me reading it. Because up until that point, I was secretly reading the Bible in my home. I was secretly reading it at night, you know, under the covers. It was so stressful to even read the Word of God. And it was just, it was just so painful to hide it, right? And I said, I didn't want to go through that stress to open this beautiful gift that you've given me. And I just kept it hidden and did not open it until the day I left. And on April 17th of 2009, I packed my bags.

I skipped an exam, drove back to home from campus and had two other friends that knew what was going on in detail in my bedroom packing my stuff up. Amazing. The house was empty, right? And I went through every room in my parents house and indirectly said goodbye to each of them. And I said, I'll never come here again. I'm leaving. I'm never looking back. I left a note on my dad's counter and signed it. And I just, I left it all behind. And I said, I don't want anything to do with this family that's been hurting me. I don't want anything to do with Islam. I don't want anything to do with anything. Cause at that point I knew Jesus is Lord. I knew, um, that I was following the truth, the way, and knowing that I have life in me because of him.

Right. And I had that boldness to do that. But that was one of the hardest decisions I've ever had to make. Understandably. Yeah. So I was 18. I was 19 at the time. I had just turned 19 at the time when I ran away

from home in Northern Virginia so not in the Middle East in Northern Virginia Aisha, man there's so many questions I have for you and I know you're working on a book where you're going to tell the story in some depth

maybe when that's out we can come back and this is kind of like part 2 you escape and I know you have you're working on a book where you're going to tell the story in some depth maybe when that's out we can come back and this is kind of like part two you escape what does life look like for the past 15 years but maybe one question you know before I wrap up I know people want to know are you back in touch with your family have any of them come to believe I am in touch with my family thankfully Thankfully, when I graduated college, I reconnected with them because I wanted them at my graduation. That was one of the main reasons. And we've been growing a friendship and relationship. I do see my sister on a monthly basis after getting married seven years ago now that I made a promise to her and i

said we need to build this friendship and relationship i'm getting married now things are going to change but we need to make sure we are connected um so we are close right my brother and i are close um they still live my my siblings still live with my parents in my home that I grew up in, in Port Bridge. So they still live not far from us. And I, you know, talk to my dad on a regular basis on the phone and, you know, my mom too. However, there's no depth in our relationships. So the conversations are very basic and surface level, right? Like, I'm not even sure what to talk about. I can't really share, oh, God revealed this to me.

And I read this or I watched a podcast, like I ran into you, you know, a couple weeks ago, how much I would just share, love to share these conversations to them, right? I can't. That's why I'm here sharing so that eventually they will be able to listen and hear the truth, right? Because I've told them the gospel. I've shown them the gospel that, you know, my husband and I are married and we share the gospel like we host and we host things in our home so that they can be in the presence of the Lord. And as I'm led, I have to be led to talk to my family. There are moments have gone through seasons that I just disconnect from them because, quite frankly, it's very toxic still right and I have to be led by the Lord because my flesh would be like I will be with them every day and I would in my if it was my flesh I would be with them in my every day hanging out with them sharing the gospel but then I get hurt

over and over again even seeing them to this day like like they still verbally, you know, accuse me, they verbally still say I'm, you know, wrong. So one way conversation. So it's very painful still, but they love my husband, Tony, they love my in-laws, my whole family, like we're all we all love each other. And we're still praying for them. there is a praise that i can share that um especially since um muhammad's my interview with muhammad is that tony's sister he has two sisters and one they both have given their life to the lord but i want to say one of them she's taken her faith i share the gospel with her last summer and i baptized her in the fall and now we're walking the lord together and she is my best friend because we are sisters in christ right and we are vulnerable with each other and now we're both praying for our family

together we're both getting together every week to read the word, getting together in person to intercede for our family. And our family thinks we're crazy. They think we're insane, right? But the fact that we can grow together, I tell her, you're my best friend. Like my twin sister, I can only talk so much about who I am with her, but deep, right? Of the things of God and the things of what he's showing us and how he's moving in the world, despite what it looks like, he is good. And he's faithful.

Even when I'm not faithful, because I know I fail every day. I fail every day, whether in the mind or my own choices but he is always consistent to reach out and be available when i do need him you know that's relationship with the lord and i'm looking forward to we're looking forward to baptizing her husband this coming the next couple days so our family it's amazing and my aunt on my mom's side so my mother's sister also gave her life to jesus a couple years ago and it was because of me leaving my house that she was convicted years before and said you're the reason why i know jesus and because your boldness to lead the way you left and you standing firm in

your faith has caused me to really think things through and now she's walking with the Lord too oh my goodness that is that is so thrilling that even sent your interview with Muhammad Faraday interviewed him here as well for folks wondering context that that's happening. I know this is just in many ways, the start of your story feels like it's been 15 years plus, even further if we go back to when you were 12. But I suspect there's going to be a lot more miracles and wonderful things God's going to work through you with your family and friends in your ministry and beyond. So I pray God just gives you blessing and strength and clarity and love and patience uh to just keep speaking when your book is out and done let me know we'll do part two and i also want to connect with a bunch a bunch of other podcasters and apologists and

you know to help get the word out there so thanks so much for coming on it's just really really been a joy absolutely it's been an honor. Before you click away, anybody, make sure you hit subscribe. We've got some other shows coming up on Islam and on the reliability of the Bible and a bunch of other stories. And if you thought about studying apologetics, we'd love to have you in our certificate or master's program at Biola. We'll see you next time.