The Sean McDowell Show - A World-Renowned Harvard-Trained Eye Surgeon Comes to Faith

Episode Date: May 14, 2024

Dr. Ming Wang graduated form Harvard & MIT and is a world-class cataract and LASIK eye surgeon, philanthropist, and community activist. Growing up in the 1960s, Ming had to play the Chinese erhu violin and dance in order to avoid being sent away to labor camps for a life of hard labor and poverty, a devastating fate that fell upon 20 million youths in China. He eventually made his way to America with only $50. Sean interviews Dr. Wang about his inspirational story and the reasons he became a Christian. READ: From Darkness to Sight, by Dr. Ming Wang (https://amzn.to/3JkHlew) WATCH: Sight (the motion picture of Dr. Ming Wang's story): https://www.sightthemovie.com/ *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: @sean_mcdowell Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org

How could a young Chinese immigrant with only $50 in his pocket, hardly able to speak English, become a world-renowned laser eye surgeon? And what led this scientific-minded atheist to believe in a creator? Our guest today, Dr. Ming Wang, earned his MD at Harvard and his PhD in laser physics from MIT. He's written 100 scientific papers, 10 textbooks, and played the Chinese violin erhu alongside Dolly Parton. Quite obviously, he has a story that needs to be heard. Dr. Wang, thanks so much for joining me. This is really a treat. Thank you, Sean, for having me on your show.

Well, let's jump right into your story, which is absolutely captivating. You were born in China in 1960, and the Cultural revolution began in 1966 when you're only six years old. Explain to our audience what happened and how that affected you and your family. Yes, thank you. In 1966, the government in China decided the best way to basically keep people ignorant is to basically affect the next generation's educational process. Because people with knowledge and education is a threat to dictatorship. So they started a cultural revolution which lasted for 10 years from 1966 to 1976, during which time they shut down all universities and colleges of the entire China. And they sent away to some of the poorest part of the country, every single high school graduate, and send them for a lifetime of poverty and hard labor.

They will never be able to come back. So over 10 years of cultural revolution, by shutting down all universities and colleges of entire China, they sent away to basically labor camp 20 million young people. Okay, 20 million young people. Now maybe tell us a little about where you lived and your family. Did you have brothers and sisters at the time? What did your dad do and mom for a profession? Tell us about that if you will. I was born in a city south of Shanghai called Hangzhou and into a family of medical professionals. My father is an internist, medical doctor, and my mother is a teacher in a medical school. And I have a younger brother.

Actually, all of them were depicted in this film upcoming site. And my father and mom, and they worked very, very hard because we didn't have very much. Actually, it was very poor. The combined salaries of my parents every month were only $30. Wow.

We have to live on that. I remember, you know, people ask me sometimes, Ming, why you work so hard? What drives you? My best answer is that I was brought up that way. I was imprinted the will to work hard because as a three-year-old kid, I remember we could only afford eight watt electricity every month. Eight watt is a quarter of a light bulb very high on the ceiling so the whole room is illuminated a little bit. All four of us live in one room. But he couldn't study if the light is too high, even the room is illuminated. But if the light bulb is loaded too low, he can read books, but the whole room is too dark so he found a solution he hung up the eight watt light bulb up in the ceiling so the whole room so we all can see each other in the room but then he put two chairs one on top of each other he climbed up there sit on the top chair it was former very hot and he was bare chested in his shorts and holding the medical book in his hand and put this light

right in front of that book so he can both illuminate the room the light can illuminate the room and also enable him to study so close enough to his book as a three-year-old i remember i was playing uh looking up saw that and studying with this contraction and for hundreds of little pearls of sweat on his back because it was so hot there was no air conditioning. So that mental impression, that imprinting is what brought me to make me someone who always want to do my best, whatever I do. In fact, I'm very grateful to my parents, so I dedicate the film site to them. That's amazing. Now, we're going to get to this film.

I want my viewers to hear all about it and go see it. It comes out in May. But were you, at that time, it's amazing you had that memory from being three years old. Were you an outlier among your friends or is this common experience for your peers and most people of that time dealing with that level of really just poverty and working hard and struggling to get by? It's very typical. Many people throughout the United States who have seen this film that resonated this part of their lives as well first generation immigrant is very typical and the thing is you know um you know who appreciates sight the most are those who used to be blind

we should free them the most are those who used to not have freedom. And so I appreciate so much what we have in America, the freedom, the freedom to worship, the freedom to seek happiness. That's why this film reminds us how blessed we are to live in this country. Talk a little bit about your family in terms of religious beliefs. Obviously, in China, the state religion is and was atheism. Was that

your beliefs? Did there come a point where you were like, I'm an atheist, or was it just what you assumed about the world because your parents and everybody around you believed? Yeah, 95% of people in China were and are still atheists today. And so out of the 5%, and I think probably a few percent, maybe two or 3% are Christians and the rest are various different Buddhists, it's very big. So most of the people are atheists. And so was me, my parents and my brother. So I was brought up in the atheist family. Even though I was

brought up in an atheist family, but it was a family that respected tradition, that respects knowledge, scholarship. And so despite the fact during the Cultural Revolution, we were not allowed to read anything other than government assigned books um but that always had little books of ancient poets uh chinese poets and different books are hiding on the shelves behind the official government red book um that he he read these to me. So that very early on, he has instilled in me a curiosity towards the world, beyond China, beyond the time we live, but also a broader view about the world, not just Eastern viewpoints, life views, but also Western and world views.

So the Cultural Revolution hit when you were from 6 to 16 years old. How did you avoid getting sent to a labor camp, and how did you get an education? That's a good question. At age 14, 1974, I finished my junior high because my parents always have insisted and encouraged me to study hard. So, I studied really hard. So, I was a straight A student and looking forward to attending high school. And eventually, I wanted to become a doctor.

I always wanted to be a doctor as a kid. Daddy and mommy got this little medical uh you know stuff the instruments the broken instrument that university you know throw away and i always play a little doctor for my childhood friends and you know repair their broken skin or things like that so um so i want to be a doctor but when i finished my junior high at age 14 1974 uh Basically a very difficult situation emerged. If I went on to high school, I would be deported just like 20 million others for life into the lifetime poverty poverty and hard labor. And so my parents want me to avoid that. So with pain, agony, they actually had to stop me from going to further education into high school, therefore, basically shut down any dream of becoming a doctor. And so I stopped, my education was abruptly cut after age 14 junior high graduation.

And then government still want to deport me unless I could find a way on the job cities. So that's why I started learning a music instrument, Chinese violin called Erhu, E-R-H-U, a two string instrument and learning dancing because if you could play a music instrument and learning that learn dance you can get into the government song and dance troop and therefore being allowed to stay in cities and exempt avoiding center with the labor camp very interesting in china in the early to mid 1970s there was this suddenly found interest in music and dancing by tens of thousands of youngsters, teenagers throughout China, and all for the sake, for the reason to survive rather than the love for music and dance. And I was one of them.

And then the government discovered we were interested in music and learning dancing with an ulterior motive, really not for music dancing, but to avoid being sent away to labor camp. So they actually stopped everybody's, they wouldn't allow, and they would not recruit any students into the song dance troupe in the cities. So my dream of, my goal of avoiding

being sent away to labor camp got dashed. So I was going to be sent away to labor camp. And then my parents smuggled me in into the medical school they were teaching. So I became an illegal medical student with studying medicine illegally without any prospect of becoming a doctor ever. And I asked my father, I said, why should I study? He said, well, knowledge will be good. Knowledge will always be useful. And they actually bribed practically those medical school professors.

So I said, don't look at over there. My son is sitting there. He's not a student, but he's listening. So all these professors were doing a favor to my parents by allowing me illegally sit through those medical school classes. Okay, so then the revolution ended in 76, but you came to the States six years later in 82. What happened at 76,

and then tell us how you ended up coming to the States. So in 1976, the cultural revolution ended after 10 years, from 66 to 76. China realized what a tragic mistake it has made by having shut down all universities and colleges of entire China for that 10 years and having practically destroyed the future of a whole generation of young people. So they stopped cultural revolution, reopened all the colleges and there was a chance to apply for college, take the SAT equivalent, national college entrance exam, but I only had junior

higher education. I was, you know, basically dropped out of school three years prior, so the last three years I've not been studying. I was playing music, instrument, learning dancing and also trying to study medicine illegally. And so my parents said, well you need to go back to school. I said go back to ninth. He said no. They said no. I said tenth. They said no. I said eleventh. They said no. I said twelfth. They said yes. I said you may want me to go back to school but jump three years ahead overnight. They said yes. And I said what you may want me to go back to school, but jump three years ahead overnight. They said yes. And I said, what's the chance of getting into college, even if I somehow magically become a 12th grader?

They said about 1%. Because so many students, the last 10 years of backlog, all coming back to the cities, applying for college. Because when they finish high school in the preceding 10 years, they were not allowed to go apply for college. Because all colleges were shut downing 10 years they were not allowed to go to apply for college because all colleges were shut down for 10 years throughout china so i said to my parents you you want me to jump ahead three years overnight and somehow magically become 12th grader have you never studied 10th 11 12th and somehow participate in a college entrance exam compete with against other 12th graders for their one% chance they said correct I said you guys are crazy mom said we're not crazy she said how long

did the government shut down colleges I said 10 years she said okay now they reopen all the colleges that's wonderful but what is to prevent them from shutting down again next year for another 10 years. So you see people who didn't have freedom, when freedom came, even briefly, they appreciate so much. So I had to do the impossible, jumping three years ahead and compete against other 12 graders for the college entrance exam. But my mom and dad helped me. They borrowed some old exams 10 years prior. They hand copied onto little piece of papers. We couldn't afford Xeroxing.

So they drove me every night with little pieces of papers containing those old exam questions. So they made me study like 10, 15 hours a day. So yeah, it was really hard, but I had to do it because I did not want to return to the darkness of not having a future. And you came to get your MD. Were you already enrolled? Did you just show up and apply? How did you get into Harvard? I actually first went to University of Maryland when I first came.

I could not get into medical school right away. I studied a subject that many American students want to study which is classical physics, quantum mechanics, laser physics and that's how I could get in the school and I had to support myself. I work at the same time when I was in graduate school. So I got a PhD degree in laser physics from Maryland and then finished postdoc at MIT. And then there was 1987, I was 26 years old. Then I thought, well, now I have the technical background. This is a free country. And since I always wanted to become a doctor, ever since I was a kid, now is the time to do it.

So I applied for medical school. And actually, I was discriminated against by a professor at Johns Hopkins who would think, you know, you're Chinese, you know, we don't know how good you are. And it's hard getting to medical school even for american born uh kid and you're from china you don't have any chance but that actually inspired me to work even harder yeah and i thought once after cultural revolution that was for myself to have freedom now Now I could fight again, you know, to get into medical school, but also not just for myself, but for anybody who, you know, has been discriminated against.

So I worked even harder, and I got into both Johns Hopkins and Harvard, and partly because this professor, I went to Harvard. So 1987, I enrolled in the Harvard and MIT joint MD program to get my second doctor degree, this time an MD in medicine. Was that professor who treated you that way because you're from China an exception in your experience? Or have there been a few people that have treated you differently and discriminated you because of your race a common experience since you've come to the States? I would say yes.

Yes, there are actually other few people, including one professor at the PhD program when I was studying. However, my overall experience of coming to America has been extremely positive and I'm very grateful because almost everybody else except these few folks that really welcomed me with their own open arms I mean imagine I couldn't speak English I did not know the culture language I have no social background and I have no money and but it is America the country that gave me the opportunity to work hard and to realize my dream. So I think the people from around the world, like myself, many immigrants and refugees,

and the people put their lives sometimes on the line so they can come here. It's because the bedrock of this country, which is freedom guaranteed by constitution, but also later on, I found Christ in my life. And the other cornerstone of America is the Bible. Okay. So let's talk about that. You describe yourself as a scientific minded atheist. When did you start to shift or when did those questions come?

What were you in China? Were you in the States? Tell us kind of those first moments, if you will, and then let's probe into the story. I actually, you know, I was obviously not born as a Christian. I was born as an atheist and I came to America as an atheist just like the Chinese student in the movie the book and the movie God's not there written by our mutual friends dr. Weiss Brooks and just like a student their student life is inspired by my life story you know that's not that so I came to this country I was not

interested in anything else except science because I for all my life finally had the opportunity to study science I was not interested in anything else except science because I for all my life finally had the opportunity to study science. I was not going to be distracted by anything else. But then after the PhD program, PhD degree in laser physics, and then I got my, you know, the second doctorate degree program, an MD at Harvard, it was in a study of medicine, in fact, in a study of the human eye, that the seed of becoming eventually become a believer was started. I was studying the human eye, and because I wanted to become laser eye surgeon, since I had the laser background PhD, if I study MD and medicine and particular eye I could be a very unique

laser eye surgeon who knows medicine and also laser technology which are very few in the world who has both degrees among laser eye surgeons so I was studying this human eye and something became clear and clear to me that it's interesting that in our human brain all of us in each of our head half of the brain neurons half were involved are involved in vision so that the vision is disproportionately important for human survival than almost any other senses, you know, touching, speaking, hearing. So because so much neurons involved in the vision signal capturing, processing, interpretation, and it quickly became clear to me that with a scientific background, you know PhD in laser physics, and I realized that it is just impossible that the atheist

worldview would hold. That means how could all these trillions and trillions of cells that combine themselves form a functional eye in a short span of you know nine months, ten months during the you know a child during pregnancy for a child so I did just so many things can go wrong that most of us should be born blind but yet most of us are born with a sight we can see so I started asking a professor this question. I said, how could all this complicated eye part, neurons and photoreceptors, that form in such a short period of time,

which is such a near perfection, and out of the random? So I kept on passing him with these questions that basically my worldview, atheist worldview, was in crisis. I could not answer a basic important question like human eye structure. So finally he took me out for lunch and he said, Ming, what's a car street? I said, that's a car. He said, what's the difference between a car and a human eye? I said, human eye is a lot more complicated. He said, okay,

can you imagine power a random piece of metal on the street assemble itself into a car i said no way then he leaned over he said how about human eye and so right there he basically just opened a window in my life making me realize that the reason the human eye being so complicated but yet can form nearly so perfectly nearly every time. It's because it is not from all the randomness that atheist worldview will hold, but it was formed with a specific purpose. And that purpose is vision. There's a designer, there's a creator behind it all. And of course, going from that,

realizing there's a creator, to eventually become a Christian who realized that the creator has a name in Jesus Christ Christ died for our sin at the cross and you know that that that's a long process which was described in my autobiography book which I have a copy from darkness aside and it's called from darkness aside because it's not not just those blind orphan children that our foundation has been able to help over the decades. Their remarkable journey from darkness aside, but also how these kids, their courage have also inspired me to come from my own darkness to light spiritually.

That's a fascinating title, especially because you're an eye surgeon from literal me to come from my own darkness to light spiritually. That's a fascinating title, especially because you're an eye surgeon from literal darkness to physically seen, but spiritual darkness to spiritual sight. You're obviously playing on that. Let me take a couple steps back on your story. You won't be able to go into depth, obviously, in your book, and I hope folks will pick that up. But it was Darwin who famously said, the design in the eye made him shudder.

And he and later thinkers like Dawkins kind of point towards the simpler eyes that exist in other organisms all the way up towards the most complex human eye. What convinces you that there couldn't be kind of a step-by-step incremental naturalistic explanation for the eye and that some kind of creator is required um great question great question um the the fact that darwin himself his theory of evolution, the Achilles tendon of his theory, the weakest point, is the human eye that he readily admitted in his book, that human eyes are so complicated

that this evolutionary viewpoint just doesn't hold in the context of human eye, particularly how the eye could form. The fact that I discovered practically the same thing as Darwin did, you know, 200 years later in modern time when I was studying the human eye, shows that at the end of the day, as Dr. Weissberg always have been advocating with his God's Not Dead lecture tours throughout the United States and the world and many of those lecture tours that he fortunately that I was involved and he invited me to talk about the scientific aspect we play tag-team I talk about more science and you talk about more scripture spiritual that the his premises is be open-minded and go to where the truth leads you. And I think that's the ultimate.

The ultimate is we want the truth. And so the fact that Darwin, who was an atheist and who developed this wonderful, very impactful theory about human understanding of the world, the evolution, 200 years ago and 200 years later, I discovered the same conundrum, the same problem that human eye is the weakest point of this evolutionary theory, the complexity of human eye make evolutionary forming such a complicated structure impossible. It shows that there's some truth to it. Both he and I discovered the same thing, right? human eye make evolutionary forming such a complicated structure impossible. It shows that there's some truth to it. Both he and I discovered the same thing, right?

There's some weak point, fundamental weak point in evolutionary theory. Now, I, as we will make it into more discussion, I am, I'm a common ground seeker. Sean, I love common ground. I love bringing people together. I love to listen on both sides and I love to find the element of truth that is somehow embedded in people's viewpoint that is truth that is the ultimate truth is what we are seeking. In this case, last night I was with 400 kids on the Zoom,

and the question asked me, Dr. Wen, do you believe in evolution and creation? And my answer, I said, you'll be surprised. I actually believe in both. And I believe creation, because I believe they address different questions. The creation has to do with how the genesis of life, the genesis of the human parts, in this case, I, and evolution has to do with the change, adaptation of that evolutionary, creationally created structure, how it evolves and adapts into environment. And because there's undeniable evidence of change, undeniable evidence of adaptation of all species across the globe over time. So it is true and you cannot overseen that, but

yet the fundamental problem of evolutionary theory is that it could not explain this complexity of structure and the complexity of life how it could come with such a specific form with all the other possibilities it just just so many possibilities is impossible that random theory random adaptation will form a form a structure such as human eye, complicated as such. So I believe creation is true because it addresses genesis of life. And evolution is true because it addresses the change adaptation of life forms after it was created. That's really helpful and raises a ton of questions that I have for you. But we're going to, in a minute, come to why you went from believing there's a creator to the Christian creator.

But first I have to ask, you are trained, obviously remarkably, one of the top universities in China. You got your MD from Harvard. You got your PhD in laser physics. So clearly you're trained in science and that you have a religious faith. So you obviously don't buy the idea that science and faith are in conflict. Talk about what you think is the relationship between the two of them.

Great question, Sean. I appreciate the question. Last night, again, I was in front of 400-some young generation students and talked about a purpose-driven life. talk about christian faith but isn't it true that in universities among intellectuals uh majority today are not believers so how do you explain that and my answer to which is your question i'm answer to the student i said well it is true in, the majority of the scientists today are not Christians. It's true. So one might conclude then, science and faith is mutually exclusive.

You know, they cannot be combined and don't have the common ground. If you study science by necessity, you will hold an atheist worldview. But as I said, however, what I've learned over my lifetime, which is depicted in my autobiography book from document to site, which now turned into movie site now, is that the more science I've learned over decades, you know, I went to school for 31 years to get both doctorate degrees,

you know, PhD in laser physics. So I studied for a long time. So insofar as the eye, I would say I probably have achieved the most amount of knowledge and study that humankind could have. But interesting thing is, as more science study that I studied, more advanced I am in the scientific field, more, not less, evidence that I've discovered that are pointing to the existence of creator. Because the more mystery that is come through and the less explainable by random collisions by atheist belief. So I told the student last night, I said, yes, there are many scientists that are not believers, but if you look at in the history of human scientific pursuit, some of the top scientists, many of them were believers.

So the proportion of scientists who believe in creator actually increases if you go to the highest tier of scientific advancement and expertise. So that is I encourage your student you study more science study harder because you're going to discover more advance in your input into the greater you know the top tier scientists rank you will actually actually find more common ground, not less between science and faith. So you had this conversation with a professor at lunch, and he opened your eyes up to saying, oh my goodness, there's really design in the eye.

Of course, that's consistent with Islam, Judaism, Mormonism, some understandings of Hinduism. What were the steps that started to lead you to identify that creator as found within Christianity and Jesus being that creator in particular great question in my autobiography from darkness to sign that which you know in movie site now, I talk about how I was impacted by many other physicians, that group of physicians who are dedicated Christians, the American Medical Dental Society members. In particular, there was a professor who I respect a lot professionally. Then actually, I was influenced by a young lady who was a dedicated Christian who was also studying to be ophthalmologist.

And she brought me to this group of physicians who are Christians. So first of all, I respect these physicians because they are professional achievements, but at the same time I listened and attended meetings and see how faith has guided in their life. And I realized that to be an ultimate physician is to recognize that our science is just a tool. You need a bigger purpose for life. And they told me about Jesus Christ, told me the resurrection, told me about God. Yes, there's a creator. By then I believed there's a creator, by then I believe there's a creator, but creator has a name,

because Jesus died for our sin as a human being, because he loves us. And then three days later he rose from dead, proving that he can conquer death. And so I realized that as a human being, we have opportunity for eternity if we follow Jesus Christ and we have opportunity to serve in this case all these physicians serving not just with medical knowledge but also with a heart to help others. It is the influence of these physician Christiansians and christians their dedication they're using science as a necessary tool but made me realize that science is necessary but it's not sufficient to have a purpose-driven life the sufficient condition has to come from faith

and in creator but also more specifically in Jesus Christ. So resurrection proved God has a name in Jesus Christ who died our saint. Resurrection proves that he is the ultimate inspiration for us to have not just mastered the signs and skills but also realize there's a higher purpose what we're going to use the tools for. And for different people have different purposes that God wants for me is to use my long, hard-earned skills, 31 years of schooling, to help those who need the most help, which are blind, orphaned children.

So it's awesome to hear about the number of other scientists and doctors who were living out their faith and they shared this with you. Did you need to say, all right, I trust you guys, this story's great, but I'm going to probe into the evidence myself. I mean, you're such a scientific-minded person. Were you reading the evidence for the resurrection? Were you studying the reliability of the Bible? Or did the story just ring so true to you that you knew it was true and didn't need that evidence at least initially um i i always want evidence as a scientist yeah and um that's sort of um being ingrained in me because my parents were scientists and um yes i did look into the resurrection and in terms of did it happen and it was to me it was unquestionably true because it was proven

by different people at different times with different means and from scientific standpoint if a fact that they have been proven by different people who are not related at different times and different ways, and that is a very scientific way of looking at if something's really true or not. And also, the fact that one can, I think the difference between believing in the Creator and the Creator has a name in jesus christ is that there's a personal relationship i can develop with the creator who guide me um that through my life doing different things uh that especially if i got stuck or in difficulty so my second evidence that convinced me that God has a name in Jesus Christ is that, and then I start my life as a Christian that believing him, but yet I still continue looking for evidence beyond the resurrection.

And so one particular example is I started doing research, trying to figure out how could I help people with chemical injuries that result in blindness in their eyes due to scarring and I found that the only person who does not scar are unborn child. However, how can you do research on the fetus without hurting baby yet I do want to do research. I do want to do research to help these kids and blind orphan children and other people who have got blinded due to injury and trauma and resulting eye scarring so well i submit to god i said well god is there an answer to this question you know if you're there if

you're real give me some idea i got stuck now between the conflict between science and faith. You know, if up to the atheist scientists, they would do the stem cell research, fetal research, no problem. But if the up to Christians, we don't want to do stem cell fetal research because life is sacred, as Bible said. But I realized that second viewpoint has a problem too, because without research, our life's quality cannot be improved you know creating new medical treatment medical you know and stem cell research fetal research are important are critically important because the top four five cause of human mortality today are cancer stroke cardiovascular disease

Alzheimer's disease and diabetes all. All of them could eventually be conquered by stem cell research. So I believe these two camps are too polarized, the atheist and scientists. And there's a truth that both sides should learn from each other. You know, atheists should learn about Christian faith, and Christians should learn about science. You know, it does not make sense to me, a pastor, one time there's a pastor, I went to a church visiting, and the pastor on Sunday said, oh, I got a headache, but I don't believe in medicine. Everybody just pray for me. But next day, Monday morning, 8 o'clock, he pick up the phone and call the doctor.

You know, there's a lack of sincerity there and i think we need to be truthful authentic that i feel science is indispensable part of our lives our lives are transformed by science such as cell phone you know transform the way we live um so i submit my uh uh conundrum the dilemma to god and there's, show me. God, I want to do research on fetal tissue, but at the same time, you know, to help patients restore their eyesight, but I don't want to hurt the baby. And in the book talk about,

I was interacting with a doctor who is a scientist and also a Christian. And he just said, you know, I mean, God God said James 1 for perseverance to keep it on don't give up don't give up don't give up so I was studying with some other scientists at the time one notably dr. Chen and several others and we just keep on probing this question I keep on praying and it's one of those praise that I think God somehow said that somehow instilled in my mind, this idea that well, instead of touching any part of the baby, since the unborn child can heal

without scar, and after birth we heal with scar. So something traumatic happened at the time of birth, and one possibility is the fact we lose the amniotic membrane, the envelope that surrounds each of us before birth. So is it possible this amniotic membrane surrounds each of us before birth is what actually convey to give the child, the unborn child, the ability to heal without scar. So you see, that's a God inspired idea and that's a result of the praying that not only that God does exist but also God does care to develop a personal

relationship with each of us because in that case is my personal praying to him and personal asking for guidance so I actually started doing research on the placenta. I got lots of placentas donated to me by mothers after giving birth to children. The placentas are discarded anyway, so nobody has any problem using those amniotic membrane, but it was connected to the baby. That's the magic part of it before birth. You know, it's like a blanket surrounding the baby. So I got these placenta brought to the laboratory and teased out a little thin saran wrap membrane out of the placenta

that used to surround all of us before birth. And I was doing research on this amniotic membrane to see if it does reduce scar and regenerate the eye. And it does. So I eventually developed amniotic membrane contact lens. And it's interesting that when develop a new membrane contact lens and it's interesting that the when any a membrane contact lens was put on these injured eyes indeed it essentially create this before birth environment on top of I allowed I to regenerate once again and reduce the scar including eyesight then

I decided you know I'm just gonna give the technology to the world so I put online my patent and I actually went around the world to about nearly 60 nations teach about the MNL membrane contact lenses over 20 year period or so I taught over 10,000 eye doctors. So today, amniomembrane contact lens is a worldwide, $100 billion industry now. And then doctors from nearly every nation have used amniomembrane contact lenses and millions of patients have had their eyesight improved and restored. To me, it shows that amniomembrane contact lenses' powerful technology can utilize fetal tissue, stem cell, but yet preserving life at the same time. Science and faith do work together.

That's such a remarkable story of God's common grace, that God has given us the commission to use science to help people. He's given us the minds to do so. He's given an environment in which we can apply it. And so in your journey to faith, praying to God for some kind of technology to help people, and the Christian God specifically answered it by giving you this idea, is one of the things that solidified you in your faith. So it's a combination of being convinced there's a creator, looking at the Gospels and the person of Jesus, and also examining the evidence and then having an answered prayer. So how did this affect you? Because as I hear you talk about

your story, it was difficult growing up, but it seems like you felt cared for. You had purpose. You come to America. You had a family that provided for you and loved you. You come to America. You're grateful for freedom. So becoming a Christian, how did that affect or shape you personally, professionally, relationally? Great question. I think there are three major differences that being a Christian has made in my life. Number one is a purpose that um i after i became a doc finishing my 31 years of schooling and i was ready to practice medicine as an eye doctor i pray again as a christian

why should i do what is god you want me to do that specific beyond my my regular job as an eye doctor what is you want me to do specific for you? And in those prayers that I felt that God was giving me a direction that I used my long sought after, learned, you know, long difficult learning process to learn medical skills, 31 years schooling to help those who need the most help, which are blind, orphaned children so

that's my book from from darkness to sight once again i showed early that has to do with the stories of these kids blind orphan children from around the world how they have restored that how we have restored their eyesight the miracles i would say that the glory of these stories miracles belong to christ because god was the one that instilled in my mind to begin with that i should use my long hard-earned medical skill to help those who need the most help those blind orphan children so first difference is purpose. A God-centric purpose, a God-inspired purpose that is beyond what we normally do. And I always tell my fellow Christians is that whatever job you have, you could be a real estate person, you could be a business person,

you could be a computer scientist, but what does God want you to do beyond what you normally do that's specific for him? For me, beyond what I normally do that's specific for him for me beyond what not what i normally do laser eye surgery is these charity surgeries to help these kids second so that's a major different purpose second is eternity that being a christian that gave me this fundamental uh comfort that and a chance that if i be a good Christian since God has died for our sin at the cross and rose from that three days later proving that he can conquer death so being a Christian I may have a chance for eternity as well with

him and the third difference beyond the purpose beyond a chance of eternity is the journey. And that being a Christian doesn't mean that I just declare to the world, I'm a Christian today, I'm just perfect, and that my life is, no. It's a journey, and the life is no less challenging. And this journey is a commitment that means God is the leader in my life,

that when I have problems, when I'm stuck in something, I need to recognize I could ask him for guidance, for help through prayer. And I just told you the example that when I'm stuck with science and faith, you know, I want to help patients reduce eye scarring, restore eyesight, knowing the fetus can heal without scar, doing research on fetal tissue, but at the same time, I don't want to hurt the same time i don't want to hurt the baby i don't want to hurt the life so i fortunately prayed and listened carefully what god want me to do eventually that the idea came to use the placenta is a god-inspired idea so the three major differences being a christian a god-centric purpose, using science, but to do what?

To do what God want me to do, to help blind orphan children. Second chance for eternity because he is the one who has conquered death, so we could have a chance as well being a Christian. And third is a journey. There's a lifelong commitment, the commitment that we need to ask always, resort to him, ask for help when we're in trouble in life. Those are three great answers. Now, I've noticed just watching some of your videos online, and of course, your book that

you wrote, that you're outspoken about your faith. You described earlier times where you were discriminated against because you're from China. Have you at times been discriminated against in the academic world, in the medical world because of your faith? Has it helped you? Is it a non-issue? Talk about that a little bit, if you will. Great question, Sean. I appreciate this question very much. Yes, I was discriminated against in the academic world because of my outspokenness about my faith in fact

in one occasion that people challenged me on the podium I was speaking about the MNL membrane contact lens because I've been teaching for 20 years the doctors and you know as I told you I basically donated technology to the world and trying to help doctors learn so that we can increase the speed of dissemination knowledge. And so I could share that discovery that as I was describing a scientific presentational problem, but I want to describe the genesis of it, the idea, as I described to you, some people challenged and, you know, they were not not they didn't

believe that they have anything to do with christian faith okay so in fact that's how i answered so i was challenged um sometimes because my outspokenness about faith in a scientific arena uh this is what i told them um a story I told them a story, that people believe there's no common ground between faith and science. So and I used to think that's true, if I become a Christian then you know it's difficult for science and faith to work together. But through the amniomembrane contact lens development, which is featured in the film site upcoming, that talk about it can actually work together. They can create science, fetal, stem cell technology without hurting the baby. Right. And so I told those people,

atheist scientists who challenged me, I said, well, you don't believe there's a common ground between science and faith? They said, no, we don't believe there's a common ground between science and faith there's no we don't believe that we said okay let me tell you the story when i started practicing medicine i have a strong desire i want to pray with my patients because faith had played a significant role in my training becoming an eye doctor as i told you the discovery of complexity of eye and the guidance of these christian and scientists, the doctors in my life. And so I want to pray, but then people told me that just like those scientists who challenge human scientific presentations when I talk about faith, that no, atheists will be unhappy, Dr. Wang, if you pray.

Okay, they will not come back to you to see you as an eye doctor. Then I realized, well well that's true you know so then again praying it that's key i pray again i say well god i want to pray with my patient before eye surgery because i faith is such an important part of my event if i eventually become eye doctor but at the same time i don't want to lose these patients and so so um i consulted my church elders and consulted the physicians and the christians who i look up to and they told me that if the right thing to do there's a price to pay and you know christ paid the ultimate price by dying for our sin at the cross. So I said, okay, I'm going

to, I'm going to do it. I'm going to pray. I'm going to go out and pray with all my patients. So ever since I started my career, I pray with all my patients before each of my eye surgeries for them. But as a scientist, I always want to do research. And because people say there's no common ground between science and faith. If up to the atheist, they don't want me to pray. If up to myself, I want to pray for my patients before surgery, during their surgeries. So I collected over a two-year period about 200 some non-Christian patients for different ways I figured out they're not Christians and asked each of them the day after surgery. Over a two-year period, about 200 of them.

And the question to them the day after surgery is, now you're happy with your surgery yesterday, but what I want to know is, were you offended when I prayed? And because I'm doing research, I'm always doing research, looking for evidence. Is there evidence supporting the science and faith of Christians and non-Christians could have common ground? It seems there's no common ground, right? Up to non-Christians, they would not want me to pray. If up to Christians, myself, I want to pray.

That's the questions raised by these atheist scientists in the scientific arena. When I present science and the faith, they were not happy about the faith aspect. They challenged me because they don't believe that they are scientists. They could not have anything to do with faith so the answer came back with these over 200 so many people that

surveyed the day after surgery over two year period almost all of them said this way i said dr wang yesterday before my eye surgery uh you did pray for me um I was not only not offended I was moved I said would you be moved that when I pray to my Christ that you do not believe and they told me the reason I was moved is because yesterday underneath your laser that I was lying there I was nervous but I saw you coming and you did come to my ear and saying, you know, Johnny is okay if I pray for us before your eye surgery. And honestly, well, the reason I asked for that,

Sean, is because I was told I'm supposed to be politically correct, I should ask for permission. So I did everything to pray before, I always ask permission. And then these folks told me the day after in the service that that were honestly I was so nervous underneath your laser when my surgeon come to my ears that can I pray with you I did not dare to say no I said well I took advantage of the

situation but I took advantage for God so so I feel okay. But my question is, were you offended? And they say, no, not only I was not offended when I was praying, but I was moved. And I said, how could you move when you do not believe the Christ that I pray? Yeah. And they say, the reason I was moved is because in one of my most important moments in my life, which is my eye surgery yeah I

do not want anything to go wrong okay it has to do with the vision for the rest of my life you brought something that is most important to you your Christ and I appreciate that so at that moment I realized that is the love for fellow human being that transcends the boundary and faith and religion. It's the love for fellow human being that is our ultimate common ground. That's a great answer. I have one last question for you, and then I want you to tell us specifically about the film that's coming out. So you're a scientist and a doctor. You see a lot of pain and suffering and brokenness in the world.

How do you make sense of that? Like, why do you think God allows so much pain and suffering when he could just stop it and doesn't need surgery from somebody like yourself, so to speak? I think God is looking for human growth in each of us in a real sense, meaning just like people in America today have taken some how many of us have taken the freedom for granted because we always had freedom and the manifestation of that taking for grantedness of our freedom is our unprecedented polarization, the unwillingness to work together across racial barriers, ethnic divisions, and political aisles.

So if we had everything, God said everything just perfectly, we will not have the growth in our character. Just like one will not have the growth about appreciating freedom if you're born in a free society, never been challenged, never experienced the life without freedom. So I think God is looking for the ultimate growth in each of us, the character. And the character can only grow by our having experience of not having what we want,

but also, even more importantly, by having the experience of making a decision to choose. Because if we're born in the perfect world, we don't need to choose, and we have no experience of otherwise without them. So it is the inner growth that God is looking for. So he allows these things to happen, these bad things happen, because he's looking for. So he allows these things to happen. These bad things happen

because he's looking for us to have the experience of the bad things so that in comparison, we know what's good things. But not only that, he gave us the choice to make a decision, each of us. By making a decision,

we can grow as a person. So that's a manifestation of ultimate love God for us. He does not want to just pamper us with the silver spoon in our mouth. He wants us to grow by experiencing, grow by making our own decisions. That's a really helpful perspective. Obviously, a ton more can be said about evil, suffering, and pain, but given what you've been through and that you're an eye doctor, in particular, or surgeon, that's a really, really helpful angle to approach this.

I appreciate you sharing that. Last question. Tell us about your film coming out. I can't wait for my kids to see it. I want my audience to go see it and support your efforts. Tell us a little bit about it. So the film Sight, we've been trying to make it for 10 years. It is based on my autobiography from Darkness to Sight.

As I said, it has to do with two parallel lines from Darkness to Sight. Those kids, they're blind orphan children. How our foundation have helped them come from darkness to sight physically, but also at the same time, how these kids, their courage, determination has also helped me, their eye kids, their courage, determination has also helped me, their eye doctor, to come from my own darkness to light spiritually. So this book is being turned into a movie site, and it will be released by Angie Studios, which distributed Chosen, The Bible Story, The Sound of Freedom last year. On May 24th, Friday, Memorial Day weekend,

actually happened Asian Heritage Month, and in theaters across North America, actually for the movie site, Dr. Weissberg and I also published this book. It's called Sight, The Bible Study, because the movie called Sight, so people always say, what is the message? The message is seeing beyond.

You know, we have challenges in life as human beings. We need to see beyond. So the movie, the storylines and the Sight Bible Study talk about five things beyond. Seeing beyond our pain, inspired by the people in the story, in the movie, that all of us, you know, are broken in some senses at some point in our lives. How do we see beyond the pain? Seeing beyond our circumstance, you know, as I mentioned today that my parents saw beyond the circumstance during cultural revolution, believe that there's a better tomorrow for their kids. That's why they work so hard and still in me, imprinted in me, the desire to work hard when I was very young.

Seeing beyond ourselves, and as I mentioned, one of the key differences that made for me as a Christian is a chance to realize that there's more to this life than what we see, the chance for eternity as a christian seeing beyond our own culture we talk about today about the racial discrimination and very different things that shows that god want us ultimately to respect all culture all faith all people, you know, that finally seem beyond our polarization, you know, and the Bible said to all people, I'm all people, right? So that we are living in a world that it is so unprecedentedly polarized that we are so fixated on differences rather than appreciating what we have in common. We're so unable to work together across political,

racial divides, and ethnic divisions. And why we're so polarized? It's because we have taken the freedom for granted. And then you say, is it true? Is it taking something for granted resulted in dispute and polarization? Correct. It's like marriage.

Husband and wife, when you have differences, if you don't appreciate marriage,'re more likely to yelling and shouting each other hurting each other feelings but if you do appreciate marriage you're more likely to say honey we're different on this thing yes but don't we have so much else in common so lack of desire to seek common ground in human being is a manifestation of underlying problem. The diagnosis is underlying problem is that we have taken what we have for granted. Now human nature drives us to polarization because money control power. So the only way to come get us out of the

deadest spiral of polarization is to heed a higher calling. In the film, there is a storyline as you see that is suggesting an idea, higher calling. In the film, there is a storyline, as you see, that is suggesting an idea, higher calling. In this case, Jesus Christ, that he is the ultimate common ground seeker. And Dr. Rice Brooks and I also have another book called The Common Ground Bible Study, which details what we learned from scripture.

Not only Christ is the ultimate common ground seeker, but also he has taught us how to find the common ground. So overall, this film message is about freedom, it's about faith, it's about the need to seek common ground. So it's a film for all, it's for Chinese Americans, immigrants, it's for Asian Americans, it's for Americans, it's for minorities, but most important, it's for all Americans, it's for Americans, it's for minorities, but most important is for all Americans. Basically is this, sight is someone who used to have no freedom and come to want to remind America how blessed we are to live in the freedom. Just like someone who used to be blind remind us how good sight is. So it

may just take a story of immigrant to who used to not have freedom to remind all of us as americans today we're so blessed living in the country we have freedom and we need to appreciate not by just saying it but actually doing it meaning me being more willing to walk across our differences politically, racially, ethnically, to build up America, to realize that this country is founded on two bedrock, which is the Constitution, give you the freedom, and the Bible, give you the faith. Dr. Wang, you really have a remarkable story for our day of hard work about the American dream, about living a life to benefit and help other people, about the intersection of science and

faith. It really blows me. I was telling my wife last night, I said, you know, I think I've written half, maybe half a dozen journal articles. I'm a professor. You've written a hundred. One academic book, you've written 10. You also have an MD, and yet you're writing Bible studies and you're creating movies to get a message of hope and sight out to people. That's incredible. It's so encouraging. It's convicting. I can't wait for my family to see your movie. And I hope everybody here who's watching this with us still will go check out Sight coming out May 24th, I believe it is, just to see. Is it the kind of movie you can bring a non-Christian to, and they'll be okay with it, or is it going to be—

tell me the answer to that question. Can you bring a non-Christian to it? Is it designed for that? It's designed to bring two groups of people for us Christians. One is to bring our kids and Some kids are science and technology and some of them are leaving Christ So this shows that science and faith can work together You need the science to give you the tools but you need Christian faith to give you a purpose

What you're going to use the tools for and it's a film designed to bring atheist skeptics because it is toned down It did not talk about uh the bible that you did not say bible did not say christ and there's no alter course it is through the storytelling through the transformation the conversion story of the protagonist naturally as it is so we've been showing this film around the country nearly half the audience who come to the films were not from those churches so what amazing outreach events right? So we encourage all Christians to bring kids and bring friends, particularly atheist skeptics, because it's their experience that we together allow them to feel, allow them to make their own decisions after being exposed to these

wonderful stories that a scientist who is also guided by faith, how could they develop a purpose for their scientific work? And the place that they can get information for the film is angel.com. Angel.com. Check it out. We'll link to that below. Thanks for coming on. I've pushed way more time from you than you had given me.

So I appreciate you staying on. Tell us about the film. Before you go away, make sure you hit subscribe. We've got some other fascinating interviews and people lined up to tell their stories that intersect with apologetics and culture and worldview. And if you thought about studying apologetics, I would love to be your professor at Biola. We have the top rate apologetics program in the country and beyond your professor at Biola. We have the top-rate apologetics program in the country and beyond. Information is below. Check it out. Dr. Wang, thank you so much for all

you're doing. This has really been a treat to have you on. Thank you, Sean. God bless you for what you do. Thank you.