The Sean McDowell Show - Are Angels Real? Theology Professor Says Yes!!

Episode Date: August 15, 2025

Have you ever wondered if angels are real or if you've encountered one without realizing it? Today, I discuss these questions with theologian Dr. Doug Potter to explore the evidence that angels are real and even maybe make themselves present in our lives today. READ: The Doctrine of Angels & Demons (NGIM Guide to Bible Doctrine) by Douglas Potter & Norman L. Geisler *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf)USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org   Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

Looking for a simple way to stay rooted in God's Word every day? The Daily Bible Devotion app by Salem Media gives you morning and evening devotionals designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you connected with scripture. Plus, you'll enjoy Daily Bible trivia and humor, a fun way to learn and share a smile while growing in your faith. Get the Daily Bible Devotion app for free on both iOS and Android. Start and end your day with God's Word. Search for the Daily Bible Devotion app in the App Store or Google Play Store, download it today. What is the evidence angels are real? Do they really walk among us and make

themselves present at times or is it all fairy tales? And if they exist, what are angels like? Our guest today is a professor at Southern Evangelical Seminary in Apologetics and Theology. He's also the author of The Doctrine of Angels and Demons. Doug Potter, thanks for coming on the show. Hey, Sean, it's great to be with you. Thanks so much. I'm really glad to be. here. Yeah, so I, on this program, I've discussed in depth, near-death experiences, evidence for miracles, done shows on testing prayer and other supernatural phenomenon, but only one video on angels. So I'm really intrigued. I saw your chapter in Lee Strobel's recent books, seeing the supernatural, and thought, you know what, he's the perfect guy to talk to. So let me just

start with this question. Of all the things you could write and study, what just personally interested you in writing a book on angels? Well, you know, I can remember when I was in high school. I grew up in a Christian church, a very conservative, evangelical church. And you hear about angels, obviously, in church and people everywhere believe in angels. And it dawned on me one day, why couldn't we like go through the Bible and find all the verses on angels and kind of put them together and learn about them? And long and behold, this is before I knew anything about theology and systematic theology and how teachers and Christian theologians have actually been doing this for a year. I didn't know anything about that.

And then my dad actually gave me a book by Charles Rivery called Basic Theology, and it basically did that. And I was amazed that this was done not only for angels, but other doctrines as well. And so that caused an interest in me at a very young age. And as I grew up, became more and more interested in Christian theology. and that, of course, included angels. But I'll tell you, one of the crucial points of my life is when I was in college, I was exposed to liberal theology. And it was your dad's book, Evidence That Demands a Verdict, Not the first volume,

but the second volume that really kept me as an evangelical Christian. It was extremely influential on my life at that time. And I very, very well would have gone into liberal theology or some Neo-Orthodox version or something like that. if it wasn't for that book. Because I was actually convinced of these higher critical theories for a while and actually got to see your dad speak, believe it or not, at a nearby college at that time. Now, he wasn't talking on that. He was talking about the resurrection.

And then he was talking about his Y-Wa-Wa-Wa-Series, but went to Bluffton College to hear your dad speak. And that just impacted me. And it always kind of stayed with me that I wanted to see your dad sometime and just thank him for the work that he's done. And got a chance to do that. I was a student at Southern Evangelical Seminary. We're at a conference, and I'm standing next to Norm Geisler. And your dad comes up, of course. And Norm introduces me to your dad, but of course, notice I'm standing next to Norm

Geisler and your dad. I don't get a word in edgewise. They're just going at it one another. But it was probably Norm Geisler and his systematic theology that then introduced me to a comprehensive study, well beyond anything I'd been exposed to before concerning. angels. So there's the interest. And later on, I get a chance to start doing some writing, some research with Norm Geiser. And he says, hey, let's do a small book series on doctrine. Let's get it down to the lay level. There's lots of people out there that aren't going to read

Norm Geiser's four-volume systematic theology. So let's get it down. And so that's when it kind of, you know, that book that you just mentioned came about as a result of that study and that work that I did with Norm back then. And yeah, I've had a chance now since at least 2004, so about 20 years, I've been teaching a Bible doctrine class, and a good part of that is dealing with angels. So there you've got to research and study it. Once you start teaching something, you really know it. And so then it's been becoming, you know, just a real big part of my academic life and personal life as well. That's a great backstory. I did not know that my dad's books played such a role. read your backstory in, you mentioned a little bit in seeing the supernatural and interviewed by Lee,

but that's always cool to hear that evidence played a role. And I can barely get a word in with my dad, let alone if somebody's like Geys are there as well. But that's another conversation. So there's two different questions here. One is like biblically and doctrinally, how do we think about angels? And I want to get to that. I have some questions for you. But also, are angels real? What's the evidence? they actually exist. How would you approach that question? Sure. Yeah, it's a tough one. A lot of philosophers have actually struggled with that. Let me give you a few approaches. The approach that I take as a Christian theologian is I rested on an argument from authority. And when the authority is

God, that's the greatest authority. You can have usually arguments from authority are fairly weak. but when your authority is God, when it's the Word of God, or it's Jesus's teaching as found in Scripture, then the argument becomes a very strong argument. Now, obviously, people that don't accept the Bible as the Word of God or they won't accept Jesus' teaching, then there's not a whole lot of basis for it. I can give you some philosophical inferences. Maybe that can be made. But probably to start with regards to, in fact, I even mentioned this to Lee Strobel in the interview,

You know, if a person at least respects Jesus of Nazareth as a teacher, maybe not the Bible is the word of God, but they at least respect him as a teacher. Well, one of the things that Jesus clearly taught on was that angels are real. He's asked a question about marriage and divorce by the Sadducees who are opposed to Jesus. Jesus says, you don't understand the scriptures. You don't understand the power of God. For in the next life, they neither are given in marriage or receive marriage. but are like the angels. Now, the Sadducees did not believe in the angels, but Jesus corrects them and tells them angels are real. They're like the angels. So Jesus taught that the angels are real. And Jesus also taught that demons are real. He has a conversation with Satan in his temptation in Matthew chapter 4. He's got instances where he talks to demons who are possessing people and cast them out. So for these instances alone,

Jesus taught and in his practice of ministry took demons and angels as being real entities. So there's a very strong authoritative argument from the teaching of Jesus. And of course, if you accept the Word of God, the Bible is the Word of God, well, then you've got the greatest authority at all with regards to it. Now, let me follow up with regards to some of the philosophical inferences. You can't argue for the existence of angels like we argue for the existence of God. You've got your cosmological argument, your teleological argument, that if you're into apologetic, you know what those arguments are. You can't sneak angels into a premise anywhere in there. It's not going to work.

What you can do is recognize the kinds of beings that we would say in metaphysics that exist in the world. You've got inanimate things like rocks. You've got animate things like plants. You've got non-rational animals like cats and dogs and giraffes and things like that. And then you've got rational animals like human beings. And then you jump to God. And you kind of think, could there be something in between there where you can have a spiritual rational being that doesn't have a body?

That would complete this chain, so to speak of. And if God is perfect and he wants his goodness to be manifested among his rational creatures, you've got a rational creature there, an angel, a pure spiritual being that could potentially exist. Now, that's an argument making an inference to fill in this gap there in terms of our thinking about natural kinds that are found in the world. So it's not a knock-down, drag-out argument, but given the perfection of God and all that he created, you can make an inference like that, and I think it's a valid inference. I appreciate to begin by saying this is an argument from authority because we haven't laid out

the evidence that God exists. the Bible is reliable. That's a separate conversation. But if Christianity is true and we have the words of Jesus, then, you know, we get angels somewhat thrown in. I think that's a fair way to approach it. Now, you've read a book on angels and demons. And I've seen some of the evidence for demons, like across cultures and worldwide, like these common phenomena of people having supernatural strength, their minds being taken over, causing bad, evil acts. Like, these are sociologically documented in different cultures of the world. I'm curious how you might compare and contrast evidence like that for demons with angels, or if we might expect it to be different,

given certain theological truths we may know about angels. Yeah, I agree with you in terms of the evidence, you know, there's nothing in scripture that says demon possession has ended or ceased or anything like that. The New Testament is replete with examples where you do have people that shows super normal strength because they're possessed by an angel, by demons, excuse me. And, you know, I would say how I would kind of assess or approach that is to really compare what maybe studies have done with regards to demons and that phenomenon manifesting itself today with the scriptures to see if lines up. And if there's congruence there or there's harmony there, then I think you're in a safe position to say, well, this is the same phenomenon that we see reflected in scripture. And so you

basically kind of have the authority of scripture there giving that. And if it's going on today or instances of it take place today, you can make a reasonable assertion or inference from that, that this is real concerning demonic activity today. And, you know, I've, over the years that I've taught students, I've had some very brilliant students that are very good in certain things. And one of them was really brilliant in evangelism. I mean, you just could not hold him back in terms of doing personal evangelism. And he said, if you get out there and you do a lot of this, you will come across demonic influences, either people that are possessed or people that are heavily influenced trying to block or stop you from doing street evangelism or other things. It just, it will manifest

itself if you're out there constantly doing the gospel and spreading the word. So I have no doubt that this does happen today and needs to be taken seriously. You know, demons can act in a way in which like planting thoughts or trying to manipulate in ways where they don't make their presence known. I mean, Jesus and John 8 calls, you know, Satan the father of lies. And so I think we underestimate how so much of Satan's tactics are just, subtle manipulative lies. But when there's a demonic encounter, it's unmistakable. It's not subtle.

And yet Hebrews 132 says, do not forget to show hospitality to strangers. For by doing so, some people have shown hospitality angels without knowing it. There's a sense of like, you could encounter an angel and literally not know it in a way you're not going to encounter a demon likely and not know it. So it makes me wonder if we should have stronger evidence for demonic encounters than angelic encounters. Do you agree with that or would you nuance? Yeah, that's a very interesting point.

You're exactly right. In fact, when you look at people's stories of angels, it's really hard to be definitive and to know for sure and to know all the angles and to know all the background and to investigate it. You're not a primary investigator. or usually you're just secondary to it. And you go, well, okay, it might fit scripture. Some things do.

Maybe you'll find some things that don't. So we're not certain about it. In fact, we left with Hebrews 13, 2 in terms of not knowing. That's what it leaves us with. There's no indication in scripture that this has ceased. You know, the emphasis of that verse, in fact, I would say that the emphasis of a lot of things regarding angels in the Bible, angels take a secondary approach to or a secondary status to other things that are going on and being emphasized. They're in a lot of places, especially in the New Testament, but they are kind of secondary because the emphasis on that verse is to show hospitality.

You know, when was the last time you heard a sermon on hospitality? That's what's that, yeah, that's what's important to that verse. And the reason to show hospitality is because in so doing that, strangers, you don't know. you may be entertaining angels. So that tells us that in the first century and no indication that it stopped, angels are in the world today. We just can't know it for certain. And that's what we have with regards to these stories.

We may not know it for certain, make inferences from them. And maybe it gives us an indication that, hey, you know, this is real and going on. And I would say that's especially the case when the gospel, the message associated with those angels is the gospel. and they're promoting the gospel and they're ministering to believers. You know, another really important verse that shows what, not only what angels are, is also in Hebrews with regards to chapter 114. It says, are they not all ministering spirits sent out to render service to, to who, to those who will inherit salvation?

Those are believers. So they are out there ministering to believers for the sake of the gospel, promoting the Great Commission and doing these things. And if that's the context in which a story comes to me and doesn't disrupt that context, I've got no reason to say that it's false or wrong or anything like that. Doug, if I remember seven or eight years ago, I decided to study near-death experiences. And I was really skeptical going in, had nothing at stake and was prepared to reject him for so many different reasons, and was really surprised by the journals of near-death experiences,

the myriad of accounts, multiple accounts. I was taken back and was like, wow, there's actually better evidence for this than I realized. Now, I haven't spent the same amount of time studying angels. I have not looked into it. But as I was preparing for this, I read a few chapters and I came across, there's apparently some academic books on this where people have done doctoral dissertations, interviewing about 800 people, you know, at times on the evidence for angels. So I guess a two-part question.

Have you compared any of the evidence for other supernatural phenomenon with angels and what do you make of it? And why do you think there's not as much attention academically on angels, even though there is popularly as there has been with near-death experiences and other miracles? Yeah, that's a very good question. You know, I haven't studied near-death experiences as nearly as much as you have. In fact, I remember reading a book, I don't know if you've ever heard of it, by Richard Abenus, called Journey Into the Light, which is on near-death experiences. He wrote it back in the 90s, and that really influenced and shaped my view of near-death experiences and the evidence is associated with that. He basically kind of break down, and you might disagree with this. That's okay. Again, I'm not up on all the research and things that are out there, but at least it broke it down to me in terms of identifying the positions as systematic things. theologians. We always like to put people in views in categories. That's what we're all about and then analyze it and so forth. That helps me remember it and helps me analyze it. But he basically said you've got the, you've got the objectivist position with regards to near-death experiences

that says, yeah, this is evidence for the afterlife. And a lot of Christians would fall into that particular category. And maybe you fall into that category as well. And a lot of people that are just into other religions, too, might fall into that category. Then you've got the purely subjectivist, which basically is the camp that says, no, we can account for all of the near-death experiences with regards to physiology. We can take a person into the lab, introduce a similar near-death experiences, and they have something very like the experiences that they have. And Richard Abenus in that book carved out a third category that I basically fall in, unless someone can show me that it's wrong, where it's a modified subjectivist approach. because you've got to recognize that a lot of that phenomenon can be physiologically reproduced and may be physiologically accountable for with regards to the near death experience.

But he left the door open. And the door that he left open is, I've got to leave the door open for what he would call a super normal influence. That is, there are angelic beings. There is this super normal realm where they are. and there's demons too, and you've got to leave that door open for that kind of influence, even into the near-death experience itself. And that really rung true with me and left me in that particular position as well. Because the one thing I don't say as a theologian, and I remember Norm Geiser,

who I studied under and co-authored the book with on angels and demons, basically emphasized the fact that it can't be the case that the soul is actually leaving the body. Whatever you want to say about it, however you want to count it for it, you can't have the soul leave the body because if the soul completely leaves the body, that's the definition of death, theologically speaking. And even if the soul leaves the body, how can it detect anything? The soul needs the body in order to know things, in order to detect things. The only way it could actually get anything is to have knowledge infused by a spiritual being or something like that. So that really solidified kind of my position that these aren't where

the soul is actually leaving the body. If the soul retains or is in the body, then you've got an instance where you can account for most of the things physiologically speaking. And so that really kind of solidified. It left the door open, but accounted for most with regards to physiological conditions. You, for example, in Hebrews, it says it is appointed under man, wants to die and then the judgment. If you die, you're judged. And that's what people, if they really are dying and coming back, they should come back with the message that they've been judged by God and the gospel is true. And this is the most important thing. Most of them, while they may be believers or they may believe in God and maybe they even give us something with regards to the

gospels, most of them aren't enthusiastically promoting them, at least the ones that I see in a Bainis's book. And he also points out that a lot of people fake this stuff. In fact, Richard Abanis, again, identifies someone who wrote a whole book on it, obviously made money on that book, and then comes back later and says, I made the whole thing up. So you've got to be really careful, but I really do leave the door open that there could be angelic influences with regards to some of the experiences. And unfortunately, if bad messages, messages against the gospel or false religions or cultic-type things are involved, then it could be demonic influence as well. I know it's a long answer. Sorry about that,

but that's kind of where I sit with regards to that particular issue. Yeah, that's totally fair. In some ways, we could have a theological discussion or debate about near-death experiences, but what's compelling to me is that people are able to report information and somehow viewing things when their body is not functioning at a distance, information they physiologically could not have known. And like with angels, is there's so many people who have encounters and they're hesitant to tell people. They're not writing it to promote a book. Those are the exceptions. In fact, in Dale Allison's book, he has a really interesting story. I know you've read this where he tells a story of this individual who saves somebody to car crash and a story comes out and it's like

the riddle of the angel priest. And the priest is like, actually, I was there. There's nothing supernatural thing to happen. I'm a real priest. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And that doesn't mean that all angelic citations are that way. Yeah. It doesn't disprove it any more than books about near-death experiences that individuals make up, mean that they necessarily made that up as well. I was more curious, just your take on what you think the evidence is for angels.

For those of you watching, by the way, there are some people. Doug is specialized in the theology and doctrine of angels, and we're going to get into that. There's some people that have written really careful, in-depth, kind of sociological studies of angelic appearances. Let me know if you want to talk with somebody that lane and really assess what that evidence is. Let me know if that's a conversation that would be helpful here.

But what do you do, Doug, just theologically and practically. When you hear a story of someone who claims to encounter an angel, how do you assess that? How do you make sense of that? Are you skeptical? Do you necessarily believe? Or what's your grid for that? Yeah. First of all, I'm initially skeptical. And maybe that's my apologetic background in terms of needing evidence, needing to try to account for as much as I can, the concern that people will be influenced by the story or the event to go in directions that are not biblical. So I've got

kind of all that built in there. But when it comes to it, you know, what I really want to do, if I'm given the task of, you know, look into this and see with regards to its credibility. One of the main things that I would do is just compare it with the doctrine or theology that I know from Scripture. If it lines up with that, then maybe there's something to it. Now, just because someone gives correct doctrine or theology doesn't also mean they're not mistaken, which they could be. Like the story that you told of the priest where the lady that was trapped and being ministered to by the priest actually thought it was an angel and it turns out it's actually a priest. She's just mistaken. She's not lying. She's not making things up. She just happens to be mistaken. And people in certain

conditions can be very mistaken about what's going on with regards to things about them. So you've got to have that as a possible option. Nonetheless, given the verses we looked at in Hebrews already, I don't discount the fact that people can really be ministered to by angels in terms of the gospel, promotion of the gospel in terms of things related to the Great Commission. Angels have the ability to affect things in our world concerning matter, to introduce ideas or concepts, which I completely agree. I think you mentioned that earlier, which is something that they can do as well. So they can be related to our world.

They can be related to the templateness of our world. I can't discount that. At the same time, I'm reminded by the verse you cited in Hebrews, that I don't know. And that leaves me in a position where I don't know with certainty whether it is or whether it isn't. And I've actually, over the years, kind of become comfortable with it. And I think it's important for us to be comfortable with the fact that we just don't know some things. But we should be most concerned about is not the seeking of angels or seeking an experience with angels or even praying to angels or praying to have an experience with angels, but to be concerned about the things of scripture that it directs us to like things like hospitality the gospel the promotion the kingdom of god and to disciple people those are the most important things and if you have an experience or angels in some way or some teaching takes you away from that it's not from god um it's in all likelihood um ultimately behind it are demons demonic activity

may not be direct maybe from the world or other things but if it's taking you away from the gospel of Jesus Christ, that's not good because demons and Satan are all against the plan of God. And so if it's distracting you from that, then it's problematic. That's where it gets tricky because Paul talks about in his letters to the Corinthians that even demons or Satan can appear as an angel of light. So we've got to have some grid by which to assess whether something is real, biblical or not. And of course, that scripture that you go back to. Like you, I'm naturally skeptical.

It's just the way I'm wired. Although I got to admit, over the past decade or so, I'm less skeptical, supernatural things. And I'm utterly convinced from studying near-death experiences, from answered prayers, from miracles. My confidence in those have really, really grown just from a lot of the shows that I've done here in experts I've interviewed. It's just firsthand accounts. that are powerful. So it is interesting. You know,

there's a certain script of angelic appearances that people have. So I sent out a tweet slash X and I said, I don't remember how I worded it, but something in fact of, if you're a Christian

and you believe you've seen an angel, will you tell me your story? And there's some great stories over there. A few dozen comments, I think a number of people email me their stories,

but there's a certain script of how angelic appearances go. And it's, Usually somebody's in a dire situation. A stranger comes up, either comforting words or something supernatural, and then mysteriously disappears. And then the person interprets it as an angel. And even, I mean, Mickey Rooney had an account.

This one blew me away. This was in Allison's book again. Yes. Where he's describing in the 60s that he was kind of at a despondent spot in his life, personal tragedy. and this young boy walks out to him and says, Mr. Rooney, Jesus Christ loves you very much. And then he goes and tries to find him and he disappears

and nobody can find this guy and he interprets it as an angel. These are the kind of stories that people report. And so I try to balance like angels are real and they happen and not be too skeptical, but also not be too gullible. But one, you know, I'd be curious how you interpret this one. Here's one that Allison gives, that is the kind that, gives me like some pause. So he says, for example, he says, I've run across the report that if true would make

one think twice. It concerns a three-year-old from New York. One morning, the little boy was recklessly running full tilt across his living room rug when he tripped and fell head first toward the sharp corner of a table. But as his horrified mother looked on, the child's forward fall was suddenly and inexplicably halted. Somehow he stood up and moved over to continue on his happy, oblivious way. Those are the kinds of reports that I go, huh, if veritical gives me pause as something supernatural as that play. Is that move you? Are you still critical of like? Yeah, I'll tell you,

I'm like, you know, it's again in the category of possible. Yeah, I'm a little critical. There's no way you know um uh uh uh lee strobel's wife i think said it right there's no way to verify the details she says that at the end of her chapter on uh this chapter and uh seeing the supernatural at the end of the chapter on the any n eds if i think in fact i think it is and when i read that i was like that's where i am there's there's no way to verify the details so what am i supposed to do with it maybe it is maybe it isn't um but i'm certainly not going to take the stories, whether I agree with them or not, and somehow form a theology or a doctrine or a basis for me in terms of developing and understanding of how they're working or operating in the world today.

We're not, we're not, it doesn't have that authority. It doesn't have, I don't have that ability to investigate the details of it with regards to that. I haven't experienced it myself. You know, Norm, Norm Geyser, again, who I mentioned in, and had study on her, basically said that, look, a personal experience can be an expression of truth, but it's not a test for truth. You can certainly express it. And I know it may seem when you can get a bunch of these together and you've got all these things lined up. But in the end, you know, it's not the word.

It's not inspired. It doesn't have that level of authority. And certainly when research backs it up, it's got a greater or more authority and peer reviewed and that kind of stuff with regards to it. But, you know, I had a professor that once said that the only place that you can go and get infallible information and content about angels and demons is the Bible. Not even my book. It doesn't make you. You can't get it there, but it's only there.

And I know, yeah, a lot goes into interpreting it and understanding it. But I think that's exactly right. And if you want to know the most about angels, how they work, how they operate. it's going to be in the scriptures. And if that parallels what's going on in the world, then fine. But again, the object of study and what should draw us back is to the scripture itself and not to either personal experiences or the experiences of other people. All right, Doug, just to be sure we're on the same page.

You don't subscribe to Geisler said it. That settles it, I believe. No, no, no, no, no, no. Not at all. Hey, where he makes a good point, he's got a good point. All right, fair enough. I want to highlight for people watching this is all of us bring certain expectations and certain assumptions about scripture, about how God makes himself known, about the evidence for the

supernatural, and we sift it through that grid. So it's important to ask ourselves, what is my grid? What are my assumptions? And of course, you and I would say scripture is the ultimate authority, and we haven't made that case here. I fully 100% can see that. That's a separate conversation. But that admittedly is a bias you might say or an assumption we bring to the table.

And the other side might say, well, that biases you to interpret things through a certain lens. And I'd say, I plead guilty of that. Although if you could prove me, scripture's not true. You know, we can have that kind of conversation. On the flip side, some people can be so committed to their naturalism that they rule out some of this supernatural phenomenon without actually investigating it. And I think for me, Doug, because of the nature of angels, I don't have to prove it all that they exist. My faith doesn't rest on it like it does the resurrection, largely because what scripture reveals about angels. They're all around us,

but guess what? You probably won't see them. So I don't have to make a case for this at all for my faith. I'm just intrigued by it. And some of the stories are enough to get. me pause because of certain patterns that show up. I think it was just this one story we talked about. You'd be like, okay, maybe they're lying. Maybe they got it wrong. Maybe she was having a hallucination. But when there's so many patterns over and over again, that's why I pause and go, huh, something might be going on. So Allison again in his book, and it's called Encountering Mystery. And I know you know this, but I highlight it because he's such a careful critical scholar for him to be so favorable to the supernatural is a really, really interesting topic of conversation

in itself. But he says there's a few things about the reports that give, like give him some pause, so to speak. And I'll read a few and then. I just want your take on one of these. He says, for example, there's stories in which more than one person sees an angel. At least that's the reporting. He says, if all angelic visions are illusory, one might expect them to. accord to the beliefs of a percipient's culture. And yet many times they're striking exceptions where they don't line up with somebody's expectations. That's interesting.

There's no evidence that so many of these people who see angels or claim that they have are under some kind of mental illusion or delusion. They seem to be healthy. He makes some other cases here. But one point that gave me pause, I was like, this is kind of interesting. He says, one wonders why if there's no divine emisseless. series to be seen. Natural selection has programmed so many of us to see them. One wonders especially about angels who so often as we will see in later chapters show up to comfort the dine. What is their

evolutionary utility? And I thought this doesn't prove anything, but it's a really interesting suggestion. What do you make of that? Well, I'd have to reject his framework. I may be a dinosaur, or no pun intended, but I don't hold the theistic evolution. I would be in line with the work that's done like Stephen Meyer. I'd recommend his book signature on the cell, Darwin Doubtz. I don't think that evolution as a scientific theory is well established. Now, I know there's lots that would hold different than that. Sure.

But I think Stephen Meyer has done a really good job. In fact, I just got almost completed a class. I have a class tomorrow on Bible and Creation model. So we spent a lot of time looking at the issue of evolution and so forth. And I'm pretty firm in terms of rejecting me. I know there's a lot out there that would accept it. But I would reject his framework to frame the question in terms of natural selection or in terms of evolution. So rejecting that framework altogether, I couldn't assume that and then answer it.

But what I could do is kind of what I've already done. I said with regards to, you know, built into us, is this. a look at what is it. I'm a creationist of what God has created. Again, going back to this inanimate rock, to this vegetation, to this animal that's not rational to human beings that are rational. We've got this built-in gap. We look at the natural kinds.

We look at the world that is out there. And even if we don't think about it in a formal sense, we still can make this kind of inference. Is there more to this? Is there a spiritual realm that we don't see? and I think that's a valid inference to make. And, of course, we can't get to it. We don't have access to it.

We may presume some things about it. But this gap of a being existing before you get to God and is lower than that human beings are lower than it, is this category of angel, what Morta Moradda would call a mind without a body. That's basically what angels are, something that's purely spiritual, is something that can. can fit in that category that would be there if we think about the world in terms of the kinds of beings and the kinds of natural kinds that are created in the world itself. So that's where I think it would come from. That's where that gap fills in, at least as a creationist speaking. Yeah, that's really interesting.

I don't know where Allison lands on the issue of evolution. He is a New Testament scholar. I suspect he would believe in evolution but would be critical. again, I'm just guessing of a purely material explanation just because he believes in the supernatural realm. But I think maybe what he's doing here is not so much assuming that it's true. He's saying, look, if these divine emissaries do not exist, why would natural selection, if it were true? Oh, yes, sure. Why are us to so find them?

So it's not so much about evolution. He's just saying, if evolution were true, we wouldn't exist. expect this to happen. But we do see this happening. And it doesn't seem to be a natural evolutionary explanation for angels, which suggests, or at least raises the question, maybe they're not an invention. Maybe evolution can't explain this as some need for survival, but these beings are actually real. That's what I think he's asking. Now, for me, I mean, I wrote a book on intelligent design with William Dembski, so I am in the intelligent design camp. I think we probably agree on some of those. But I think he's kind of doing a reductio ad absurdum a little bit.

And of course, we could come up with some evolutionary explanation. I mean, you can always make up an evolutionary explanation for something. They benefit us this way. They benefit us that way. But that's working from the existence of angels or the stories of angels backwards, words, rather than saying what would we expect if evolution were true? And I think minimally, he's saying it's kind of surprising, which suggests there might be something to these stories. Does that make sense when framed that way? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I probably misunderstood his quote and didn't see the full context with regards to that. Yeah, you certainly could make that charge to an evolutionist as to where this would come from. And that gets into the whole spiritual realm.

where does the soul come from? Where does the consciousness come from with regards to evolution? How can you get the material to produce the immaterial, as Geiser would put, or the rational, the non-rational to produce the rational. It just doesn't make any philosophical sense whatsoever with regards to that. So, yeah, I can see that particular kind. And yeah, that would be a challenge in terms of how can evolution explain the whole notion of things being immaterial and being real, nonetheless, universals and things like that out there. So yeah, that's definitely a challenge to put with regards to evolution. And I think you can even say, look, even if evolution were true, this is still surprising

and suggest that it wasn't a blind material process that got us here. I think that's, again, doesn't prove anything, but it's interesting and enough to give us certain pause. All right. So for the first, I don't know, 40 minutes or so, I've pulled you out of your realm of systematic theology and you've humored me on some of the questions about angels. Let's do maybe a little bit more of just kind of a rapid fire take. And this doesn't do justice because you have a whole book on this. You teach a whole class on it. But give us just some of your quick takes on

where do angels come from? What's their origin story? Yeah, very good. The first thing is that they are created beings. This is extremely important. And by created being, that means they have a beginning. There's a point at which they do not exist and God brings them into existence. Just like God creates the animals and creates the man. Man, he also creates animals, the man and woman, and he also creates angels. In fact, there's a verse, Genesis 2-1 speaks of the account of God creating the heavens in the earth and all of his hosts. Now, some Old Testament scholars would say that's likely a reference or an inference to angels

because hosts is often used of angels. even if it's not, the phrase, the idiom in the Hebrew of heavens and earth, John Selhammer shows that it covers everything. It covers, like we see in Colossians 116 of Jesus Christ, creating everything visible and invisible. So it includes the material realm as well as the immaterial realm. So they're created beings, but they don't die. Why can't they die? They can't die because they don't have a body.

They don't have matter. and God holds them into existence, combining their existence with their knowledge. And that's what constitutes an angel as a pure spiritual being. And therefore, they are what we would call there at least, Ev Eternal is the theological term that's created for the realm in which they are, enables them to be connected to God and also connected with regards to our world and to have interaction with our world and also connected to God as well. So they're everlasting beings. They have a beginning, but they have no end. But they are created, and that means they're always going to be finite.

They know much more than human beings, and they know in a different way than us. All their knowledge is infused in them and constitutes what their being is. But nonetheless, they are finite, they're limited. They're composed of their will and their knowledge and they're purely spiritual beings. And that's what they are. and that's where they come from. So God is Spirit, John 4. Angels are spirits.

God will exist for forever moving forward. Angels will exist forever moving forward. But of course, God is not created. Angels are. Right. Yeah. God is eternal. God is eternal. Angels are this ev eternal or they're everlasting.

Beginning, no end. God has no beginning and no end. So what follows for angelic power? angels, given that they are created beings? Yeah, we get this basically from the scriptures in terms of the fact that they're able to interact with our world. And of course, they know things. They know things in a more perfect way than we know things because, again, their knowledge

is infused in them in the act of their creation. And they're able to exercise their will in our world. They can go, they're not omniscient or omnipresent like God is. Only in one place at one time can they interact with regards to our world. They can insert their will in terms of influencing people or introducing ideas in people's imagination. That's possible. In the Bible, they even appear in a good angel appears in a dream to Joseph to tell them what to do with his family. So some things like that are possible.

They can manipulate matter in the world too. There are angels that go to Abraham that, as far as we can tell, have assumed what appears to be real material bodies. Now, angels are pure spiritual beings. So matter is not essential to their nature. It's accidental to their nature. That is, it doesn't, it's not required that an angel assume a body. But this is in fact something that either they're capable of doing or God allows them to do or God enables them to do in order to bring his message to Abraham. And in the case with regards to lot as well. And this can still continue today. We don't know that it would, with regards to the completion of the New Testament, since we can entertain angels, as Hebrews tells us,

without knowing it. So they can do things in our world, just like humans can do things in our world. But again, it's important to understand that the matter, the body that they might assume, and maybe not all angels can do it, is not essential to their nature. They're essentially a spiritual being. human beings have a body that is essential to their nature. My soul cannot completely function when it's separated from my body. That's the intermediate state that will ultimately be resurrected again and receive a glorified body and in union with a glorified body. But my full function as a human being requires that I have a body. Angels aren't that way.

Bodies aren't essential to their nature. They can do whatever they do without a body. and they can obviously operate and interact with our world. So as I read the Old Testament, angels appear early, like in Genesis and appear throughout the Old Testament. But I can't think of a demon possession in the Old Testament unless I'm missing one. And yet they burst on the scene early with Jesus and are consistently in the New Testament. Yeah, that's a good. Now, you do, for fair, you do have soul who is tormented by an evil soul.

spirit, which some would take as a demon. But your, your, your, your observation is right. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of demonic possession going on in the Old Testament. And when you open up the New Testament, at least with the life of Christ and the Gospels, it seems to be everywhere. So that's a good, good observation, yeah. You're referring to Saul, right, who is just tormented by the evil spirit? Is that the one you're referring to? Right. Yeah. Any sense of why we'd have so much angels in the Old Testament and and angels and demons in the new? Or are we just not told? And it could be the coming of Jesus that draws him out or something. Yeah, my teacher would have said it's probably the coming of Jesus that kind of draws it out. And there is a historical background. If you look at the intertestimal period,

the second temple period, there are some extra biblical books that are written where angels are all over the place in those books. So there's a heightened interest in the culture, in the surrounding with regards to angels and what to do with them and to name them and to categorize them and all kinds of things going on. So we know that the culture is increased in terms of its ability to recognize and to be aware and to accept the existence of angels and demons and so forth. And then of course you've got Jesus, the son of God, the Messiah coming on scene where the opposite, the demonic opposition to him is just going to be at a heightened like we have we've never experienced in the Old Testament. and certainly to a certain extent perhaps don't even experience today.

So, yeah, I have no problem with saying that there's this heightened sense in which demonic activity is taking place and also angelic activity taking place. Jesus is ministered to by spirits. They announce his birth. They're involved in all kinds of things with regards to Christ and witnesses to things that he does and his resurrection and so forth. So, yeah, it's all over the place in the New Testament. and just scant, it seems to be.

But, you know, the other thing to say is I thought about this. You know, the Old Testament goes over a longer period of time. It's about 1,500 years, as you would read in evidence that demands a verdict. About 1,500 years, lots of authors, books are kind of spaced out a little bit more. Time is kind of spaced out a little bit more. And the New Testament, it's all concentrated into, what, 70, 80 years at the most in terms of the books, when they were written in the accounts that are going on, it's much more concentrated. So maybe that's got to do with some of it.

Very interesting. It's been 10 years since Michael Heiser's super influential book, The Unseen Realm. In fact, I just did a review with an Old Testament professor at Talbot where I teach on that book and kind of its lasting impact. One of the points that Heiser makes is that Angel is more of a functional term than an ontological term. that it describes a messenger. And so sometimes the angel of the Lord, like arguably in Genesis 18, is actually Yahweh. Right. And then, so in a sense, it could be a human being, but then other times these messengers have the very characteristics that you're talking about and we've discussed here. Do you agree with that distinction about angels being messengers and more functional than ontological?

Yeah, I would, I disagree with his view with regards to the divine counsel. that's probably where you need to know with regards to the background that I come with regards to that. I think he fails to do a correct theology or a metaphysics with regards to that divine counsel. So I kind of reject his view on that. I would agree with him in terms of the term messenger. You do have to be careful. In every place you see the word angel in the Bible, it's not always the spiritual being that we've been talking about. But in terms of a metaphysics, you've got, you've got.

got spiritual beings without bodies, and that really constitutes the metaphysics that fills that gap between rational animal, which is a human being and God, is just a spiritual being. So whatever title they have or whatever descriptions that you're giving them, as a theologian, you've got a spiritual being. Now, there is a degree or graduations between them. One angel can be more powerful than another angel. By that, I mean they know more than other. other angels, and their will is stronger or more powerful, able to do more or accomplish more in terms of the world or in terms of praising God and honoring and glorifying God. So there is a graduate, each angel really is a, as if you look at some of the old medieval theologians,

they would speak in terms of each angel being a different species because they are distinct from one another by their knowledge and their will. And so we can certainly talk and have a discussion about more powerful angels and less powerful angels, so to speak, and the same thing with regards to the demonic realm. But I would resist the notion that there's this other category that makes them different than what I just described with regards to pure spiritual beings. There just isn't one metaphysically, and you don't see it reflected in Scripture. A lot of you are intrigued now at Doug's thoughts.

on Michael Heiser's work. Go back and watch that video. We take a deep dive of it. And if you want us to interact more with Michael Heiser's material, which is just fascinating, thoughtful, put a comment below and maybe I'll revisit that again. One or two more for you, Doug, if that's okay. Are there any just big misconceptions, either in the church or in popular culture about angels that you just see coming up and you're like, I just want to pull my hair out?

Why do we keep saying this about angels? Oh, yeah. And the biggest one is this thinking that we become angels and somehow when we die, which is not at all in scripture. Christ says we will be like the angels. We will never be an angel in the sense that a material body is not essential to our nature. We can certainly be separated from it in death. But again, to be a human being is to be in union or harmony with our body.

And so in our glorified state, we're together with our body. And angels will never have a body that is essential to their nature. So that's the one thing that I just consistently hear. Maybe people say it, you know, kind of flippantly or to encourage one another, whatever. But it's just theologically filled with problems with regards to that. You know, there's probably, you know, another difficulty that comes to mind is to, think somehow that angels are unimportant or they're not worth spending time on or not worth investigating, not worth being aware of.

You know, I was thinking in one of your earlier questions, how, you know, a lot of us are brought up with a scientific mechanistic understanding. Science plays a big role in our life. We think that science can explain everything. But in fact, it can't. And it doesn't go into the supernatural realm. and it takes someone else to give us truth with regards to that realm. So we certainly don't want to go through as a Christian discounting angels or thinking that

they're unimportant. They do play a role in God's plan. We see it throughout scripture. And so that opposite extreme of just ignoring them. In fact, in my interview with Lee Strobel, he brought up C.S. Lewis's quote to me, which I didn't even, I don't even think I knew of it beforehand. And I can't say it verbatim, but he says the worst thing you can do is to, is to, over-emphasize angels in an unhealthy way and then completely ignore them.

And to a certain extent, that's where people can go that is just wrong with regards to that issue. And I know I didn't get the exact quote, but that's the emphasis with regards to that. And so those are kind of the dangers with regards to it. And then, of course, in the middle is some of the misunderstanding and so forth that's out there. Well, you deal with so many other misunderstandings in your book about whether we have a guardian angel, etc. I'll let folks go there for your take on that. I think you're right about us becoming angels is, I think that's really problematic

because then it says humans are essentially spirits and our bodies are accidental to us. And so that means like if we don't properly diagnose anthropologically what it means to be human, we can't love God, we can't love others, we can't live in the world properly. and so to say we're just essentially spirit and our being embodied is not a part of who we are, I think just guts that. And we see that kind of Gnosticism all over in the church. So I think you're right to respond to that one. Let me end with this one.

My study really of the supernatural, I've always believed, I mean, at least, yeah, I mean, I believed in the supernatural my whole life. I really owned in my faith, I think I would say in my 20s. but really the past decade plus when I've studied the evidence for miracles, near-death experiences, answered prayers, it's really been transformative for me in terms of when I see people. I've had people share stories with me. And yes, there's a certain skeptical button that's there, but I'm likely to say, tell me about that and not dismiss it.

And hear people's supernatural accounts, it changed the way I pray, changed the way I read the Bible, that the spiritual world is real. How has studying angels affected you personally? Oh, I would completely agree with you. You know, growing up with the scientific mindset, the mechanistic view of the world, even being influenced by the church growing up and in Christianity, you know, in your younger years, you know, you don't pay much attention to angels and things like that. I did a little bit with regard to at least wondering about it and wanting to study it.

But it really, it kind of doubles your understanding of the world because all of a sudden there is this spiritual realm that needs to be taken very real. And there are battles going on there for human souls. And prayer plays a huge part of it. Read Ephesians chapter 6 with regards to the armor of God, which is to be taken spiritually by us on a daily basis to do battle and to defend those who have believed from the attacks of Satan and to be to have this integrated into our life on a daily basis and so you're right it just opens up everything in terms of getting a what really is a whole world view with regards to our

world in this spiritual realm that's going on and then you tackle a book like revelation and you've got angels all over the place with regards to the end times and so forth and you see how what a huge role they play in delivering the judgments of God and the role that they're going to play in the end times. And so you just to get a biblical understanding, to get a biblical worldview or to have even broader, a Christian worldview takes the appreciation and the study of the supernatural realm. And that's really what I think has impacted and settled with me in terms of my daily life. I think of the spiritual realm, the armor of God, the dependence I need to have on him. And, you know, Dr. Geiser used to say this. Another thing that I agree with them on a point

that he would say, it's the Holy Spirit who ministers in us. The Holy Spirit knows our mind, knows our thoughts, can intercede on our behalf and ministers in us, but it's angels who function in terms of ministering to us. They are external to us. We're not to seek them. We don't pray to them. We don't worship them, but they do come to us and can minister to us, obviously, without our knowing, as Hebrews tells us, being aware of that and walking every day with that type of mindset and that type of thought is very impactful. And in a sense, you take on and you become a spiritual person when you recognize that realm, that realm that exists in the reality that it should play in our life. Amen. Doug, this has been so much fun. I appreciate entertaining my questions and

thoughts and probings on this. One thing I try to do in my ministry is just cheerlead other people. God's giving me a platform in different ways, and I want to see other people just succeed. And when it comes to apologetics programs, I'm obviously biased towards our program at Bile and Talbot because I went there and I teach there. But I'm rooting for you guys at Southern Evangelical Seminary to get as many students as you can. But you guys have a program we don't have, which is a demon in apologetics. some of my students are probably watching this. Tell us just quickly kind of what you do and why someone

should come study with you on that. Thanks. Thanks so much. Yeah, since about 2002, I've actually been directing or 2005, I think it is directing the Doctor of Ministry program at Southern Evangelical Seminary. And it's a capstone degree. It builds off of existing degrees that are a seminary type degree where pastors that are out there, ministers that out there that have all gone to seminary, at least done some graduate level work in apologetics or other areas are fine, really doesn't matter, but theological related can build on top of that. And it's a very customized degree. We work with you to suggest classes and directed studies and so forth in a ministry project. And it really is designed to just take professionals in ministry to a next level and to

continue to perfect them in terms of being a minister and ministering to them as well along that process and just allowing them a chance to really enhance and build upon those experience that they've had and work that they've already done in ministry. And so it's a degree for advanced students and so forth or to go into an advanced degree like that. And yeah, it's centered in apologetics. So a lot of the classes that you'll take. And even if you do, even if you don't have apologetics background. We'll help you out with that. We'll get you up to speed in terms of that area, open to both men and women. And yeah, it's a, it's a growing program and it's really been a blessing to be. In fact, I would say that the thing that I have enjoyed the most in my ministry

is working in the doctor ministry, we're working with the students in the doctor ministry program. That's been the most rewarding thing that I've done. And I know that you have a lot of rewarding things with regards to Biola and students that you've worked with there. It's just a very satisfying thing to see them grow in the Lord, see them advance in their careers, advanced personally, and just really take a lot from it. So I appreciate that very much. I love what you're doing, and it's good to know more about it.

My students graduate, some are looking for PhDs, some are looking for demons. Of course, some aren't looking to study any further, but it's great to know what you do, and I'll be suggesting it to my grad students. As I'm thinking out loud, it might be interesting. You know, no one's done this. Maybe just four or five of us or three of us just have a conversation about what apologetics programs are out there on the master's level, the demon level, the PhD level, not competing, just saying here's some awesome opportunities, here's strengths and maybe weaknesses.

That's something I want to think about. And by the way, folks, if you're watching, if that would be helpful, just comment and let me know. But Doug, all that aside, appreciate you coming on. This has been a really fun conversation. Yeah, you bet. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I really appreciate it a lot. This has been really fun and lightning. We'll do it again. Folks, before you go away, make sure you hit subscribe. And of course, I'm biased. We'd love to have you study apologetics at Biola. We got a full distance master's program. Doug, we'll do it again. Thanks, my friend. You bet. Thanks so much. Are you concerned about tensions in the Middle East? Do you wonder where we're currently at in the biblical timeline? Are we really in the last days? Hi, everyone. I'm Dr. Carlin. Muller with the Inside the Epicenter podcast. Every week, my co-host, bestselling author, Joel Rosenberg and I answer those questions and more.

You'll hear inside knowledge of our meetings with leaders at the highest levels of government in the U.S., Israel, and the Middle East, equipping you to filter the news with biblically sound insights. Find Inside the Epicenter on your favorite podcast app or go to joshuafund.com to listen and subscribe.