The Sean McDowell Show - Are Christians Safe from Demons?

Episode Date: October 24, 2025

Steve Dabbs is a retired senior military chaplain with over 35 years of full-time expertise in pastoral care. Throughout his life and ministry, he has encountered demonic activity and today he's here to answer these questions: "Can a Christian be demonized?" "Are Christians Safe from Demonic Activity?" Steve's answers might surprise you, but they are rooted both in church history and scripture. READ: When Demons Surface, by Steve Dabbs (https://amzn.to/4oDHTPh) WEBSITE: www.SteveDabbs.org WATCH: "Demonic–Or Something Else? My Son's Chilling Encounter" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0clQNzl7Vk0) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [smdcertdisc] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: @sean_mcdowell Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

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Life Audio. Can a Christian be demonized? The Bible doesn't say you can't, but the early church says you can't. Satan has already been defeated. So if Satan's defeated, how could demons who are part of Satan's army or minions potentially inhabit or demonize someone? Be reminded that the Bible warns us four times to put on the full armor of God. Jesus claims that the church to be his bride.

Satan is claiming the world. to be his bride. Right in the midst of that, a demon manifest, a demon surfaces in her. And it begins to claw at me. And we dealt with that evil spirit. And for the first time in that lady's life, she realized that her issue was not mental. Her issue was not that she lacked spirituality. Or she was not a child of God.

The issue was the fact she was a demonized Christian, and she needed the new covenant benefit of deliverance. Can a Christian be demonized? What is the testimonial evidence for demonization? And what does the Bible say about it? Here to discuss these questions is chaplain, counselor, and author of when demons surface, my friend Steve dabs. Steve, this is our third conversation, our last conversation. We took an actual video footage of my son talking with a Satanist,

and you broke it down in a remarkable way. The feedback from that has been fascinating. But here, we got a lot of. questions of like, wait a minute, could that happen to a Christian? Could a Christian be demonized? And of course, you're the first one that came to mind to have this conversation. So thanks for coming back. Absolutely. It's my honor. So let's start with the definition, because this is important. What is demonization? And is it different from demonic possession or demonic oppression? Yes. The Bible only uses one word. And it's the Greek word for demonization.

to be demonized. And so, and it does mean in the Greek to be inhabited by an evil spirit. Of course, a lot of people are, the topic, of course, is very unsettling. So a lot of people, or church leaders may use the word, the word demon, demonically influenced, or they may say demonically oppressed. But it's important to know that, those two words are not used in the Bible. As a matter of fact, the Bible already has words dedicated for that. So, for instance, demonically influenced, the word for it that already exists is deceived. And of course, demonically oppressed, the biblical word that exists for it is to be tested by an evil spirit or to be maybe afflicted by an evil spirit. So to reiterate, the Bible only

uses one word and it's demonized and it means to be inhabited by an evil spirit. So influenced, oppressed, possessed. These are nuances that people have to try to clarify what's meant by demonization or to inhabit. But the Bible has one word. A quick question before we jump into more what the Bible says about this. Should we have an assumption that when someone's demonized, they've necessarily been playing with sorcery or had sin in their life? Or can there be a lot of different reasons? Like I'm reading through the gospel, Luke, and there seems to be kids who are haunted and other people that there's no sense where Jesus says, stop sinning. So it seems to me that could be one cause, but we shouldn't begin with that assumption. Is that fair to you? That is fair, because there are various reasons

why people are demonized. And there are even scholars and other folks that have been able to determine that some of it has been as a result of a generational curses. And I know, of course, that is still another controversial issue because people will say, well, how in the world can a child suffer for the behavior or the ancestral behavior of those in the past? And of course, the Bible does speak to that. And interesting, if we had more time, a lot of people may not even realize that the new Testament actually alludes to the 12 curses indicated in Deuteronomy, except that we just

going to bring that out in our own day and age. Okay, maybe that's a follow-up conversation we'll have. I'd appreciate folks watching. If you're like, wait a minute, that's an area I need more depth on. Tell us and comment, because I think the supernatural realm is real, and I'm not ashamed to talk about it. So let us know what other areas would be helpful to you for clarification. and we'd be happy to talk about it.

So in some, you may have covered it, but what does the Bible say about demonization? I would say that the Bible, when it comes to, you know, on the topic of Christians, can a Christian be demonized? The Bible doesn't say you can't, but the early church says you can't. Oh, okay, so let me come back. I want to ask you about that with the early church.

We'll come back to that. But when we started thinking about this topic, a few objections come to mind that I've heard and I've wondered about myself. Namely, Colossians 215 talks about how Satan has already been defeated. So if Satan's defeated, how could demons who are part of Satan's army or minions potentially inhabit or demonize someone? I tell people all the time, Satan has indeed been defeated. However, be reminded that the Bible warns us four times to put on the fool.

armor of God. So if demons could not in any way negatively impact us, why is the Bible warning us on four separate occasions to put on the full armor of God? And that was not from Jesus while before he died on the cross and says it is finished. This is from Paul in Ephesians specifically in the same language in Colossians at least a couple decades afterwards. So Satan's been defeated in one sense but he's still able to reign and be the prince of the air in another sense, and his final defeat is yet in the future. That distinction is really helpful, Steve. But I also heard this one and thought about it.

First John 518 says the evil one cannot touch us. So if the evil one can't touch us, how could a Christian be demonized and literally like inhabited, so to speak, by a demon? That basic promise is true. basically as it relates to us in the and the activity of expelling an evil spirit. We know that that applies Luke 10 and 19. It says in the practice of expelling the spirit that Jesus promises that we cannot be harmed. However, 1st John 518 is a lot more provocative.

Basically in the Greek, it actually uses two particular words in close proximity. It talks about being touched. and then also that Satan is reclining with the world. So just as Jesus claims the church to be his bride, Satan is claiming the world to be his bride. So when you take the words, should I say touch, as well as recline, basically it's painting a picture, basically that Satan is having a spiritual,

adulterous relationship with the world. And so it's, again, it's a lot more provocative. You see the same language in the Old Testament when the Israelites are worshipping idols. Basically, God describes it as spiritual adultery, which ironically is why the Bible, first John, in the Bible, First John 5, it ends in verse 21 with the warning, do not worship idols. So what Paul is talking about, in 1 John 5, 18, and 19 is he's warning the true believers to stay away from idols, which in essence is spiritual idolatry. As always, those who watch my program, context, context, context. So in one sense, Satan and demons can touch Christians in one sense,

but cannot touch Christians in another. And even the language, by the way, demons are spirits. They're not physical. So clearly we're talking about more than like physical touch the way we think about touch a wall. So that context in First John is really helpful, Steve. By the way, if I was to add one more thing, the word touch is actually used in 1st Corinthians 7 and 1 in the Greek to talk about sexual immorality. So once again, it's driving on the point of spiritual adultery by virtue of idolatry. Interesting. That raises a ton of questions, but I think your point is made for here. Two more, just kind of objections that I hear that your clarity on this would help. Second Corinthians 614 talks about Paul writes, of course, the church in Corinth, that light can't fellowship with darkness. So how could darkness fellowship in the sense of inhabiting one who has the light in him or her? Absolutely. So when we think about that, you go back to Job chapter one versus.

I believe eight through nine. And interestingly, when God is in the assembly of the holy angels, guess who shows up? Satan as well. So in other words, Satan, the unholy is in the midst of the holy. But in that context, God is not fellowshiping with Satan. As a matter of fact, when the scriptures introduce him, it introduces by the name Satan, which in Greek and Hebrew, actually means adversary. So once again, the Bible's making it clear that even though Satan is present

in heaven with God and the holy angels, he's not fellowshiping with him. Satan is there as an adversary to advocate against the disobedient. Okay, so in this case, we taught someone being demonized, inhabiting would not be the same as fellowshiping. There's a distinction that would be made. So these nuances are really important when it comes to this. One more, this is kind of an obvious one. This is in Romans 8, 9, but it appears elsewhere that when somebody becomes a believer, the spirit dwells inside of us. So if we have the Holy Spirit living inside of us, this is language that we use, as you know, Steve, like invite the Holy Spirit in to dwell inside of us. How could a demon dwell or inhabit where the Holy Spirit?

is. Absolutely. This is interesting. Basically, 1 John 4 and 1 tells us that we must test the spirit. So basically the test that something is orthodox. We start with testing the deity of Christ or the deity of God. The reason why that argument is it fails the test of 1st John 4 and 1 because it fails the test of deity because God is all present. And so basically, if God is all present, he's everywhere, even where evil is present. Okay. Fair enough. It raises interesting questions as the philosophy is tempted to take a side trail, I won't, what it means for God who's not physical to be anywhere in the first place. And typically, God's omnipresence, this referred to, as God's power over and his active control over every single physical place,

even though God isn't physical like water fills up a jug. And so when we nuance what's meant by God dwelling in something, it helps to understand how you can be inhabited by a demon, but also have the Holy Spirit technically inside of you, which is a humbling, sobering thought, which should make all of us pause and think if this can happen to somebody else, I got to get my life right. So this doesn't happen to me, but we're going to come back to that, Steve.

You made a reference earlier, and I'm really curious about this because I've studied church history only in the sense of whether or not the apostles died as martyrs. So I read the first couple centuries roughly and even beyond that. But I didn't really pay attention to this particular question about demonization. So what is some of the early? early church fathers say about this? And is there unanimity about it? Or do you have any sense of as a whole how the church fathers viewed this? I would say that when I was, you know, I had the pleasure and the honor of attending seminary up on the East Coast, you know, Puritan territory. And so the interesting

thing about my seminary, they have what they call the BTI, which is the Boston Technical Institute, meaning that you could take courses, you can pay for your tuition at Gordon Conwell, but you can take courses at Harvard, Yale, Boston University, the Eastern Orthodox schools, even some of the Jewish schools there, and vice versa, they could take classes at Gordon Conwell. So you're in the arena with immense amount of scholarship. And so the understanding when we look at the early church, most of what I'm going to share today is predominantly viewed as consensus with most of the scholars in the field. So, for example, if I give you three quotes.

One would be from Trotillion Second Century. One of the things that Tortilian does in the second century, he shares a historical account of a, a lady who went to the murderous gladiator events, but she came back demonized. And so when the church leaders went to expel the demon, they actually, they interrogated it and asked it, how did in the world did you dare to enter into a woman? And it's specifically Torquilian clearly says, he says that how would you, why would you dare into a woman who is a belief? Want to keep God's word with you wherever you go? The King James Bible Study KJV app by Salem Media makes it easy to read, study, share, and pray daily with a timeless KJV translation.

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justified to do so because she was on my domain. So that's from the second century. Another one second century is hippolytus. Hippolytus is talking about new converts coming into the church. and preparing for baptism. And interestingly, he's sharing how they're having hands laid on them to ensure that they no longer have demons. And in some cases, some of the people, he has a history of some of the people who are coming

into the church that are preparing for baptism, but they still are going through the process of exorcism. Again, I know it's very, very unsettling, but we're hearing historical and accounts from the early church leaders of believers, converts in the faith, those who even have been baptized that are being told, we're being told that they have demons. Another historical account is this is from the first century. So late first century, early second century is from the pastor of Hermas. And so in the, in the, his writings, he's talking about. about he's contrasting a believer, a believer that's full of faith, 100% full of faith,

and another believer that's 50% full of faith. And so he's saying that when Satan comes, he's trying to inhabit, to find a room to inhabit the Christians that are 100% in the faith, but he cannot do it. They successfully resist him. But he goes again to the the believers that are, should I say, in the Greek, it says that they have half faith, which means that they're not fully faithful. We know that to be like a coronal Christian. And so pretty much he is able to find in the Greek a topon. It's really from the Greek word topos. And we're going to come back to that because it's quite fascinating. And he's able to find a room. And it says in the Greek, it says, and he's able to.

to enter them. Now, one particular debate is that some people say, well, if they are 50% full of faith, then that may be, that may be applying to an unbeliever. But guess what? An unbeliever has zero percent faith in Christ. So we know in the context, that can't be the case. And also we know in the warning and in the Greek, it uses the word topos, It is the exact form of the Greek word that is used in Ephesians, chapter 4, verse 26 and verse 27, where Paul warns, he says, do not let the sun go down on your anger and neither give a place a topon to the devil. Same exact form and use of the Greek word. And we find it not only in Ephesians, but we see it also reutilized by the devil. the pastor of Hermas in the first century.

That's fascinating. By the way, just for people watching this, the Shepherd of Hermes or Hermes, Hippolytus, and Turtulian, these are not minor, obscure church fathers. There were some traditions that thought the Shepherd of Hermas should be canonical. Now, you and I would not consider it canonical, but it's still an early, powerful source about what the early church believed. And even that account in Turtulian, I mean, was it historical? Was it not? I don't know. I haven't looked at that. But that's not the point here. The point is he sure thought it was possible. He sure talked about it in the way that the church where he was at would have accepted this as normative, probably a century and a half or so after the time of Christ, since he's writing at the turn of the second to the third century. That's three really interesting examples of the kind of

demonization you're talking about in the early church. Let's skip like 2,000 years. What about like present pastors and theologians? You've been studying this a lot? Maybe give us some examples of, I don't know, two or three again, of some pastors and theologians that you think our audience might recognize that you would say, Sean, they kind of agree with me and see it the way that I do. The most shocking one is the former president of Dallas Theological Seminary, Chuck Swindall. Chuck Swindall said he's convinced. And he says even as a pastor, he has a quote in his book, Demonism.

And he says as a pastor, he has even helped people in his church find relief from demons. And so he's clearly saying that he has helped believers in his church find liberation of freedom from demons. And so that's the first book. I'm sorry. Let me come back and see if you have another one. For those, if you don't know who Suendal is, that's okay. He's a peer with my father. They are friends going way back. I'm guessing Swindolls in his mid to upper 80s, if I had to guess. But for a few decades, he was president of DTS. He was a pastor at EV3. He was one of the most recognizable, conservative pastors in America, period. Why did you say shocking, though? Why did you cite him somebody that it surprised you would hold the view that he holds? Because many people at Dallas Theological Seminary are cessationists. They don't believe that these spiritual gifts are still valid for today. But it's interesting that in that context, academic context, you have the president, the former president of Dallas Theological Seminary coming along and saying, hey, I believe this is real. And not only do I believe it's real, but I've actually assisted in helping believers, Christians find liberation from evil spirits.

got it. Before we go to the next one, if you're a professor of DTS or if you taught there, comment below just how common that is today. And I have no, this is not a judgment for me. I'm really more just curious. Where would DTS be today with this issue on the possibility of demonization? Let us know. That would be fascinating. Did you have another example? Or is it like Swindal said it, that settles it, you know, I believe it. I have several. Let me give you another one. Professor of Hebrew and Old Testament at Gordon-Kownville Theological Seminary, which I'm an alum. And he's also the endorser, one of the endorsers of my book. This guy, he actually knows like five, five or six different languages.

Matter of fact, he's the one that actually changed the Genesis, the Hebrew rendering of Genesis when he speaks about God coming in the windstorm, basically. Basically, he sees it as a theophanie. And actually, matter of fact, his scholarship is so great that is recognized worldwide. So you're talking about a Hebrew scholar, a Harvard graduate, professor. He believes that not only can Christians be demonized, he says actually he's helped many Christians, even people, seminary students find freedom. and he claims even that he himself has had to go to his church and find freedom in Christ, even as a seminary professor.

So he's not only claiming that it happens. He's claiming that he's assisted people who have been inhabited by evil spirits. And also he himself at one point was inhabited by evil spirit and had to find liberation through his local church. As you mentioned it, I should have reached out to and asked Clint Arnold, who's one of my colleagues at Talbot School theology, who's probably the world's expert on Colossians, which like Ephesians is filled with these kind of demonic supernatural encounters. He's written on this. I interviewed him a few months ago about

kind of a New Testament perspective on spiritual warfare. I think you made your point. Are there any others that you want to cite or do you want to move on? I think you made your point that at least there are scholars and pastors that are holding this view. But you tell me if there's one more you want to cite. I add one more. How about C. Fred Dickinson? He's the professor Emeritus at Theology of Theology at Moody Bible Institute. He said over a 10-year period, he actually has documented 400 believers, authentic Christian believers, professing believers that were demonized under his care and he assisted. So I know that's pretty, another astounding statement from a professor of Meritus PhD from Moody Bible

Institute. All right. So you got Moody, you got Gordon Conwell, you got Tao Seithological Seminary. Your case is that this is mainstream, but maybe take a step back. I know there's some differences on deliverance ministries. I've had on Richard Gallagher, for example, who's Catholic, and there's some differences that are there. Can you give us a sense of the lay of the land? Like you and I were chatting before that maybe in the future I'd have you come back and somebody else who has a different perspective on this. So we just have a debate and a conversation so people can understand what's that stake. So again, folks, if you're watching this and that kind of conversation would be helpful and you have a suggested guest for that, put them below and I'll take a look at this.

I want to advance it. But how mainstream is your view? And what is maybe one or two other views that you find out there as you've read the literature? I would say when we talk, when it comes to demonization, I think that a lot of times people may confuse that we use terms like exorcism or which is a Latin term, by the way, late Latin at that. And then we have, you know, I know my, you know, friends, colleagues at Freedom of Christ Ministries, they use the word freedom because they're trying to, should I say, not remove some of the denominational understandings of that. And so that people have a clear understanding of what it means to be liberated from an evil spirit.

They may use the word freedom instead. But I would say that the word, deliverance is actually biblical. It's the, it comes from the Lord's prayer. And it's interesting that in the Lord's prayer, a particular word, the Greek word used is ruamai. And basically it means to be rescued from acute danger. So the theology is rich because even our Lord is saying that he wants us to recite this prayer daily. And the mere fact that he's telling us, us that we need to be praying to be delivered is basically in his mindset, Jesus' own mindset and theology is that believers are, should I say, under acute danger

from the evil one. That's pretty fascinating when you think about it. Also, the word is different from Sozo. Sozo has the idea of being saved from, it has the idea of eternal life as opposed to earthly living. But what we find in the scriptures when you, when both of them are used, even in 2 Timothy 4 and 18, it speaks of the fact that Christians in New Testament theology must be saved from sin and also delivered from Satan. And so one is the saved, the salvation is a once in a lifetime event, but the deliverance is a daily occurrence. And that should be something that should make us shudder in a sense that even our Lord realizes in the Lord's prayer, because we know it needs to be recited daily because it's give us our day, give us today our daily

bread. And so we know with that, it comes right behind that is the spiritual warfare prayer that God delivers us also from the evil one. And so taking all that together, we need to be, in New Testament theology, believers must be saved from sin, but also delivered from Satan. Okay, so tell me if you agree with this. When it comes to salvation, there's justification. We have been saved from the penalty of sin that's passed. There's sanctification.

We are being saved from the power. of sins. You might say we've been saved from the penalty of sin, we're being saved from the power of sin, and glorification will be saved from the presence of sin. And so sin has been defeated in one sense on the cross when we believe in Jesus by grace through faith, but in the presence of our sanctification, we are growing in Christ's likeness, and a part of that is being delivered from Satan. So maybe we'd frame it this way. Again, tell me if you agree with this, is this was Clint Ardole who framed it this way in his book on spiritual warfare.

He said there's three ways we're tempted from the world, from the flesh, and from the devil. And all of us, part of our sanctification process is consistently resisting our flesh, resisting the temptation of the world, resisting and being delivered from the power of Satan. So what you're talking about this deliverance is a regular part of our sanctification. And if that's right, it's not just resisting our flesh, but we are regularly and daily putting on the armor of God to fight against the lies and power of Satan. That's what it means in the present to be delivered. Did I frame it correctly in the way you see it? You got it correct. And one of the things that's fascinating to me every time I read it is

is 1 Timothy 118. It describes the Christian life as a way of, is a battle against demons. Matter of fact, the way it's translated, it should be, it's present active imperative. Paul tells Timothy continue to fight the good warfare. And so basically, since it's present active imperative, it's a command, it's but a continuous command, is that we're always in warfare 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Okay, so there's different terms for this, freedom, exorcism, but it sounds like you prefer the term deliverance, and I know that's not unique to you, but tell us what that term means and why you use it. Deliverance, you know, I like the word freedom because I think it's more looking for a simple way to stay rooted in God's word every day.

The Daily Bible Devotion app by Salem Media gives you morning and evening. devotionals designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you connected with scripture. Plus, you'll enjoy daily Bible trivia and humor, a fun way to learn and share a smile while growing in your faith. Get the Daily Bible Devotion app for free on both iOS and Android. Start and end your day with God's Word. Search for the Daily Bible Devotion app in the App Store or Google Play Store and download it today. It does not have any denominational nuance to it. However, if we look at it, the biblical sense, the actual biblical word, like the biblical word for demonized, then it would be one word. And the one word that's consistent is deliverance.

So I would say from a biblical perspective, that would be an accurate term. However, a lot of people understand that from a, should I say a Pentecostal perspective. So it may have a Pentecostal flavor to it. And that's why a lot of people may use different terms. But nevertheless, in this case, the Pentecostals have it right. It is actually a biblical word. It actually comes from the Lord's prayer. And that word, deliverance, the Greek word, is used throughout the New Testament. And so that's why it's, again, a fascinating word. But again, it's still in every context, it means to be rescued from acute and present danger. It has a very strong Greek word and meaning to it,

which should really raise awareness in the mind of the believer that the theology here is very, very strong and that we're constantly in need of God's protective powers because the evil one, our enemy, is at... really eagerly at work. Matter of fact, I'm actually doing research now. And one of the things that I'm looking at is how can I take these Greek words and bring them to life in the New Testament? Because in our modern day, our Bibles are pretty modern. They don't take into consideration some of the language that we find in the New Testament. Like, for instance, the word for enemy.

when I looked at all of the Greek lexicons, guess what it should be translated as? Plaintiff. Huh. And so if we translated it that way in our English translations, and every time a believer reads it, he realizes that a plaintiff is a person that has a legal right against you.

It falls right into the language of Satan being the accuser of the brethren or of the believer, is that Satan is going around and him and, him and his demons are going around taking notes and building a ledger on our behavior because they themselves are the angels of disobedience. And so what they're doing is they're constantly building a case against us as a plaintiff would as to why we should not be inheriting this good grace and mercy that we received from God because they never got it. They rebelled one time and they never receive the graces and the mercies of God as we do who continue day by day

moment by moment to fall short of the glory of God. That's that's really interesting. I'll just note for our listeners and viewers that you've written a book called When Demons Surface. We've talked about it twice. A lot of this stuff is so fresh in your mind because you're researching for a book on demonization. And after our last interview, a lot of people are like, talk about this. talk about this. I'm like, okay, so you've got some fresh stuff coming out. Keep us posted to my

viewers and audience. We will let you know when this is out. But for now, check out when demon surface you lay some of the groundwork for this and our other conversations. In some ways, this is obvious, but in other ways it's not. How do you know when somebody needs deliverance from the acute powers of demonization? And how do you kind of balance with concerns that somebody could literally just have schizophrenia or some other mental disorder. And by the way, before you answer that, I'm not Catholic, you're not Catholic. But when I interviewed Richard Gallagher, who's Catholic, I was really impressed at how careful the Catholic Church is to bring in somebody like him who's an Ivy League trained,

brilliant psychiatrist. It's like we're going to make sure we've weeded out all natural possibilities before we do an exorcism, Catholic or not, I gained a ton of respect for that approach. What does it look like for you to do this when there's not kind of the top-down hierarchy of the Catholic Church? That's a wonderful question. As a matter of fact, I myself, I have a screener that I take people through. And so I don't just assume if a person comes to me and they think that they suspect that they may have a demon. I don't just jump straight. there, I normally will walk through a series of questions and examine their background. I want to know

about their medical history. I want to know about their mental health history. I want to know what their activities they've been involved in in their background and also in their recent endeavors. And then I want to know why they think they may have a demon. Now, if somebody levitates in my office, it's pretty clear. they need some they need deliverance they need to be set free you know find freedom of christ uh but oh some some cases let me let me give you an example yeah please i had a young lady came to me uh and she had months prior uh i mean she's this is a church leader i mean a church leader by all accounts doing great full of the joy of the lord but every day she leaves the church she goes home she's not in ministry she's depressed uh matter of

fact she's having suicidal thoughts. And so she decides, this is a lady that's, I mean, it's by all accounts in her church doing extremely well, excelling in ministry, married, has children of her own. But she decides one night she's going to take, she's going to go park her car in a parking lot, put her location on so the people can find her. She takes a bottle of sleeping pills. And she's sitting in her car waiting to die. And then she hears a voice that says, you do not want to die this way. So she cranks the car back up. She's swerving down the road all the way to the hospital. I mean, knocking over trash cans, almost avoiding the ditches. But she finally, by God's grace, makes it to the hospital. They pump her stomach. And she decides

to put herself in a 72-hour medical hold. She gets out of the medical hold. She's back home. She's seeing a therapist. She's reading her Bible. She's praying. She's fasting. Nothing's happening.

All of a sudden, I think she sees one of your podcasts, and I'm on it. So she decides to contact me. So she contacts me. So we meet up. And basically, I have my wife in this case to assist me, Whenever I can, I try to provide a safe haven for, for especially if I'm working with people of opposite gender, make sure that they can have somebody else in the room that they feel comfortable with. Because this person has some trauma.

Well, we actually do a, we take it through a process of screening. And in the process of taking it through the screening, guess what happens? A right in the midst of that, a demon manifest. the demon surfaces in her. And it begins to claw at me. And so my wife and I sitting there because we knew that we were protected by Luke 1019. We were protected. We had no fear.

And so we just exercised the power and authority of Christ, and we dealt with that evil spirit. And for the first time in that lady's life, she realized that her issue was not mental. her issue was not that she lacked spirituality or she was not a child of God. The issue was the fact she was a demonized Christian and she needed the new covenant benefit of deliverance. That's really helpful.

In some ways, this is a whole other conversation. But it feels like there's layers to this. Like somebody could have abuse in their past, which they've never gotten healing from, which is demonic that. somebody would be encouraged to do that, but there might be some psychological, emotional healing that needs to take place. Sometimes it's emotional issues, sometimes it's spiritual. And what you're doing is saying, I'm trying to walk with somebody through and recognize all the factors that it play. And is it primarily demonic? Is it partly demonic? Or in this case, is it not demonic apart from

lies of Satan, which is always a piece of it, which is different. than a demon inhabiting somebody. So I guess in sum, the bottom line is you're not just tipped off really quickly and jump to not exercise, but deliver somebody. You are very carefully, methodically walking through. And I guess you're like me. I have a number of students I counsel at, say, my church at times or at Biola Talbot. And I kind of have this radar that's like, I'm out of my depth when I don't know how to deal

with this and I need a professional. You probably have that too. But bottom line is you're not just jumping into this. You're walking through with people step by step to recognize it. But with the awareness that demonic influence might be a part of it and probably a problem today is people rule that out and assume it's not demonic and then they'll never get to the root of it if it is demonic. Is that fair? Does that capture how you approach it? And it is. It is. very fair. And oftentimes you can even, sometimes if you're in a conundrum, you can even say, if this is a demonic, an attack, then in the name of Christ Jesus, you know, I command you to depart from this individual in the name of Christ Jesus. And sometimes nothing happens,

and then in some cases it does. It does. So it's a pretty, it's not, I wish it was more black and white. Yeah. We had a checklist if we could do it. But oftentimes it's not. It takes discernment. Sometimes it takes you being really sensitive to the Holy Spirit to know. But I do try to, to the best of my ability to go through a screening process and to evaluate a person's background before I even try to jump to the conclusion that they may be demonized. I mean, two other good stories I could share.

Can you hold on before we just? to the story. I want to make sure, if we differ on this, it's okay. But I worked at a church for a year, a number of years ago. It was more along the Pentecostal charismatic lane. And one of the things that happened is somebody who's struggling with something is like spirit of pornography, be gone. Spirit greed, be gone. It was like everything was solely spiritual. And I always remember thinking, gosh, I don't know that it's that simple. Like just pray and all your struggles go away, in part because I think God is humbling us and God is teaching us through the process. So it's a mistake to not recognize that when somebody's hooked on pornography, there's

a deep spiritual lie and power from Satan at the root of that. But to say, that's all it is, as if a prayer can deliver somebody from that, I think that's short-sighted and potentially dangerous. Do you agree with that? Totally agree. You can't you, the Bible tells us to crucify the flesh and expel demons, but you can't expel the flesh and crucify a demon. And so what I mean by that is some cases we war against the world, the flesh, and the devil. So a lot of times it's a matter of people changing the company are the environment that they keep. A lot of times it's a matter of practicing discipline, learning how to discipline your flesh. And so again, I'm with you that there are some things that we have to remember.

The Bible says we war against the world, the flesh, and the devil. So there are three enemies that we are constantly in battle with. And we have to be able to distinguish when something is a battle of the flesh as opposed to a battle against an evil spirit. Now, with that said, Satan will take advantage of any opportunity he can. And so no one or no thing is off limits. And if you give him an avenue, he's going to, of course, strive to take advantage of that. And like in the case of the lady that the church leader who was suicidal, when it came down to it, her issue was really an unresolved trauma in her life that the demon used as an infiltration into our life.

And so after we went through the process of helping her find freedom, then I actually. I had her follow up with her therapist to deal with the trauma. And that, I believe, would be the thing that would close the door to her spiritual vulnerability altogether. Okay, good. That makes sense because we are material and immaterial beings. We need to rewire our souls. We need to rewire our brains. We need relational healing.

I mean, Jesus grown wisdom and stature favor with God and favor with man. To be a whole being, we've got to address all of these. So well said. I think it sounds like we're in agreement on that. You were sharing a story. You said we had maybe one or two more stories of Christians who had been demonized and how you dealt with this. Tell us. Yes.

There was a lady that she's part of our family, extended family. And so she was well to do. I mean, God had been good to her. She's really blessed. And so there was somebody in the family that a young man that was having trouble. in his high school. And so the family, they say, hey, we don't want to give up on the guys. So she decided to take him in and help him out.

She had every day after work, she would take a nap on her sofa in the living room. And so one day she wakes up and she wakes up to stabbing pains in her torso. And she looks up and it's the young man. Looking for a simple way to stay rooted in God's words. every day? The Daily Bible Devotion app by Salem Media gives you morning and evening devotionals designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you connected with scripture. Plus, you'll enjoy daily Bible trivia and humor, a fun way to learn and share a smile while growing in your faith. Get the Daily Bible Devotion app for free on both iOS and Android. Start and end your day with God's

Word. Search for the Daily Bible Devotion app in the App Store or Google Play Store and download it today. Oh, my goodness. Well, when we interrogated him, this guy, he's a Christian, young man, come from a Christian home and was having behavioral issues. And he said that one day,

he saw his aunt lying on the sofa, and the words kept going through his head, killer. Jeez. Killer. Killer. Killer. And he actually gave in to the thoughts

and so unfortunately she wound up dying later in the hospital. Wow. That is a powerful story. Now, was he, if I missed the details, help me out here. Is this someone who said he was a follower of Jesus and if reasonably he was believed in him before that time? And for such an extreme case, we talked about earlier how there can be different reasons why somebody's demonized, but being in sin, and there are things we can do that open up the door for

that. So do we know he's a believer? And is there anything you open up the door to? Or are you saying like this could literally happen to any Christian? I would say that we're dealing with in our day and age, and this is my warning to the church. The Bible predicts that in the end times, there would be an increase in wickedness, Matthew 24 and 12. There would be an increase in demonic teaching, 1 Timothy 4 and 1, and that there would also be an increase in the number of demons. And that's Revelation 916. And so in my field and in my pastoral duties, I'm seeing an increase in demonization and not just demonization, but stronger spectrum demonization. And the customer, the people coming to me are not on believers, but believers.

And so these are people, young people, young adults, young teenagers that are coming out of Christian homes that are in need of care. And so my concern is that we have ignored the issue to such a degree that now we're dealing with harm to life issues. that we really, really need to, I would encourage anybody when they watch this video, please take the, don't let Satan may tempt you to disregard this content.

I would say, resist him. And really prayerfully think about the research that we're presenting in this video because it can be the difference between life and death. For example, I was talking to another friend, a neighbor, and he said, hey, you know, we have a family member that lost a parent. And they're just, they got recently suspended from school.

And we're thinking about moving, moving that person, the young man into our home so that we can care for him. And I kid you not, my pastoral sense is kicked in. And I remember the story I just shared with you. And I say, hey, you know, friend, I recommend that before you move this young man into your house, that you get him into therapy, get to the root of why he's having these, the outbursts of anger and violence before you bring him into your home. He said, you know, you know, he wouldn't be on therapy. And so, sure enough, they moved him into the house. they're sitting here's this is what he tells me in the stories i'm sharing today everyone is giving me

permission to share these stories and if we have time i share one with you that i'm working now that's it's a homo attempted murder case and so in this particular one they're sitting at the dinner table and the wife says to to the young man she says whatever happened to my little james is her nephew. And my friend says the young man sits up in the chair, both of his eyes go totally black. I mean, there's no white. It goes totally black. And he says, James no longer lives here. Shortly after that, they had a violent outburst from him to such a degree that they had to call the police. And he had to be. be escorted from their home.

So once again, we're having cases of extreme demonization where people are, they're not knowing what to do in these cases. In some cases, they're going to the churches and not finding help. Here's one other I'll share with you. And I've been allowed to share this story. Young man puts his kids to bed one night. let me back up they they moved into a new home after they moved into the new home they had a lot of paranormal activity happening in the home this is a Christian family so they don't know what to do

so eventually they pray the paranormal activity decreases but then the wife started starts acting very strange one night he puts his his children to bed he walks up stairs and his the the way he describes it he goes upstairs everything is pitch black so he calls out his wife's name and for this sake i'm gonna call her judy he says judy judy and he says in the he says in the the he sees from the sparkle of the night light he can see judy standing before the footbed uh the footboard of their bed, but she's in a, she's in a demeaning, menacing demeanor. She's standing for the bed. And he calls out, he says, Judy.

And he says, his wife answers in a man's voice and says, this, I am not Judy. I am Johnny. Oh, boy. And you are, and he said from the male voice, embodied voice said, bow, I am a servant. of Satan, bow down and worship me. And if you do not, we're going to kill you. A few weeks after that, sure enough, he comes out of the shower, his wife is standing in that same menacing demeanor. He says what he sees in her is not his wife anymore. She pulls out a gun and she shoots him. He turns sideways. It hits his arm. It hits him in an abdomen.

and I kid you not, he just got out of the hospital about two weeks ago. Oh my goodness. Now, let me ask you this, Steve. One of the reasons I tend to trust a lot of the reports of, like, say, near-death experiences is people are reluctant to share these stories. They're not making any money from it. They feel like people are going to think they're crazy, but they feel compelled to share it because it's so life-changing to them.

are these the same kind of people like everything else is like there's no reason why they would make this up and they're telling you what they saw and they can't explain it any other way. Is that fair to the kind of people you're talking about? Very much so. There's there's, in matter of fact, I have no, there's no benefit to me because even, you know, this is a free service. I make no revenues from the podcast. second of all, basically all the counseling I provide is pro bono, is free.

And so the people that are coming to me, they're coming to me and they're seeking help. And I'm trying to do the best I can to provide the care and support I can, even from a distance, because these people are out of state. And they did allow me even today to share the story. And this is actually, when it's all said and done, if it's, This particular issue because the wife is actually in jail as we speak. And so this is more than likely there would be a police report that will accompany this, accompany this admission in the days to come.

And so this is the real world true story. We could have a whole discussion and debate about whether this stuff is happening more or less. I don't know how to answer that. You cited someone reach out. to you that heard our video earlier. Some of this is selection effect, the bigger somebody's platform becomes. Other people reach out to them. So for me, after interviewing Mike Winger on the issue of abuse, I've had a number of people

reach out to me, and it's easy to say, the issue is bigger. And it's like, no, I spoke into it. And people on spiritual abuse have reached out to me. But bottom line, it's all over the Bible. We certainly see it in the early church. Swindal was talking about, I don't know when he wrote that book, probably 70 80s or 90s. So whether it's more or not, it's present, I'm tempted to say that it's more for reasons I won't go into. We don't have to settle that. Folks, if you're watching this and you have an

encounter, you're not crazy. We believe you. Satan is real. Demonic power and influences are happening, but the one in you is greater than the one in the world. Amen. There's so much more we could talk about, but I want you just to give kind of a word of encouragement for folks, because I was thinking about the temptation of Jesus, and Jesus did not have a corrupted flesh. So any temptation of Jesus was limited to two, either Satan and the demons or the world, not his broken flesh. But in the temptation, I mean, 40 days is crazy. I think it's actually funny in Luke 4, and it says, you know,

40 days, he was hungry. I was like, yeah, after four hours I'm hungry, let alone 40 days. And his response is three times he quotes scripture. Man must not live on bread alone, Deuteronomy 8.3. And then worship the Lord your God and serve him only, Deuteronomy 613. By the way, in the Gospel of Luke, the Greek behind that only occurs twice in the Gospel of Luke. Once, in this passage, where it says worship, of God alone. And then at the end of Luke, when they do the same to Jesus, clearly saying Jesus is God and deserves worship. And then third, Syed Deuteronomy 616, do not test the Lord your God. So one way we can resist these demonic powers is to be in God's word. What other encouragement would

you give to folks? I would say that typically if I was to leave anybody with any one word, I would would say, Acts 242. And so it's the four essential practices of the first Christians. And so I love that. They devoted themselves to the Apostles' teaching. Amen. To the breaking of bread, which we know to be not just fellowship, but a euphemism for the Lord's Supper. The fellowship hanging out with other Christians. And in the Greek, it actually says deep prayers. And so I can show you that in the Hatafila Hebrew equivalency of that would be in reference to the Lord's prayer. And so that is another discussion for the days to come. But nevertheless, if you're devoting yourself to prayer, fellowship, church attendance,

and the apostles teaching of Bible reading, you're going to be pretty safe when it comes to these demonic battles. However, there are those rare occasions if there are unresolved issues from the past or trauma, it may require you to have somebody else come alongside you to help aid you through the battle so that you can find freedom in Christ. But I love what you said earlier, Sean, that if you are, if you suspect as a Christian, you're demonized, then you're not crazy. Also, you have, you are still a child of God.

You have not lost your salvation. You're still a child of God. And good news for you, you are entitled to the new covenant benefit of freedom in Christ. And so I would also add to that if you are a pastor, then God says that we're going to be judged by how we handle his word. And so my thing to you is that please don't let the evil one try to tempt you to disregard this content. I would say please instead prayerfully consider it. And also remember this, that in the end of days, wouldn't it be a travesty? if we stood before God.

And he reinforced the fact that he'd given us his power and authority to liberate his children from demons, but yet we allowed them to unnecessarily suffer. Good word, brother. And what's the website if people want to get a hold of me? I know you can't counsel everybody, but what's your website? It's Steve dabs.org. Steve dabs.org. And I tell you, I am committed to responding to anyone who contacts me.

As a matter of fact, the last video I had a surge in emails, but I committed myself to respondent to each and every one. And I would do my due diligence as an unworthy servant of the Lord to, if I can't help you directly, is to do everything I can to get someone who can. Amazing. Thanks, brother. And folks watching, also check out when demons surface talks about a lot of this and the plan that you mentioned about walking through spiritually to resist the devil. Steve, we will definitely have you back. Folks watching, if you're like, wait a minute, this point, that point, there's something else. I want to know about this tied to the issue of spiritual warfare. Let us know. Comment below. And again, if you have an experience, you're willing to share about demonization you have seen or experienced.

I know it can be hard to share publicly. Share it below. And the rest of you, I just say that you respect and honor people sharing things that are very, very sensitive. But you've got a platform below. By the way, first announcement, Steve, we have totally updated our certificate program that was like two decades old. It is out now.

Top rate apologetics training. And there's a discount below, a 25% discount. We would love anybody who says, I'm not ready for a master's degree, but I want to learn. in apologetics. We have some of the top-rated apologists in the world giving lectures. I give a few myself, discount below. We have a master's program in this from on campus to distance in apologetics at Talbot School theology. We would love to train you to go deeper to defend the faith. Information is below. Think about joining us. Make sure you hit subscribe. A lot of you who watch this video are not subscribed to the channel and haven't hit those notification buttons so you don't miss

an episode. Steve, we'll do it again. Thanks for your time, brother. Absolutely. Hey, God bless you and thank you for what you do for the body of Christ. Hey, friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that follow button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning in haven't done this yet, and it makes a huge difference in helping us reach and equip more people and build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every review helps. Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell show, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, where we have on campus and online programs in apologetic, spiritual formation, marriage and family, Bible, and so much more. We would love to

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