The Sean McDowell Show - Asking a Mormon Leader My Hardest Questions

Starting point is 00:00:00 Life Audio. Neil Wall, thanks for meeting with me. Thank you. This is a treat. So we're here in a Mormon ward in San Diego, but you're the stake president. Can you tell us what that means? So as a stake president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we are local church leaders.

Starting point is 00:00:22 We are laid leaders. There's no financial compensation for a stake president or for a bishop of a local congregation. And simply as a state president, I have two counselors and we train and we teach and we give speeches and we interview the local members over nine congregations in a specific geographic area. Have you ever had a Christian apologist like myself show up and say, I've got my film crew, I want to interview, ask you questions, or is this a first? This is a first. Okay. So what do you expect? Were you nervous? Like, wait, this Apologist is going to grill me? Like, what was your expectation coming into this? I first had to look up what apologetic is. Okay. I have been accused of that. And I love what I know to be true and I believe what I know to be true. And so I try to stick by that. But no, I'm grateful to be here and talk about Christ and answer your questions.

Starting point is 00:01:29 So you're not paid. You're not formally trained like with theology or with the degree or your undergrad degree. You just learn growing up. Of course, you went to seminary mornings to learn what you believe. But there's no formal training that you have to be in this position. For my age back in the day, seminary was 6 a.m. Our children are soft because it's 7 a.m. now for those kids. So seminary is high school age, five days a week and learning from the scriptures. And then when you go to college, there's what's called Institute. So it's the same program that they have at all the universities. Most of the universities will have Institute for those kids. So I actually went one morning to seminary at the local Mormon ward because I stayed over the night with my friend. He's like, we're getting up at five. And that morning, it was the first time I was introduced to the book of Abraham. I was like, wait a minute.

Starting point is 00:02:24 I had never heard this before. Super fascinating. But I went one time at five in the morning. and actually experienced that. Now, that's a separate issue. You mentioned you have five kids. You've been married. How long?

Starting point is 00:02:37 Almost 35 years. Almost 35 years. Your bride's in the audience. Did I get that right? 35? Okay. She said almost, but I love that. She's like, close enough.

Starting point is 00:02:49 That's awesome. Now, beforehand, I hope it's okay if we jump into this. You mentioned that 14 years ago you had a daughter. I think she was four. Four. And she passed away as a brain, too. Correct. First off, super sorry to hear about that. Thank you. I teach a class in my apologetics. We have a master's in apologetics. People come get,

Starting point is 00:03:08 and I teach a class, why does God allow evil? And we talk about evil and suffering. And of course, as a Christian, I have a certain way I look at this, theologically, biblically, et cetera. But how did you process that? And when somebody from the outside is like, wait a minute, if your God is good, why would he allow you to do this? your servant is, a stake, president, you're doing everything right? How would you respond to that? Great question. It's individual and thank goodness for the foundation of my knowledge and belief of what I know to be true in Jesus Christ.

Starting point is 00:03:44 We all know, right? Because of him, we have a more abundant life. He should know, as we know in Scripture, right? He did not have an easy life by any stretch of the imagination. hard. Adam and Eve, as they came out of Paradise of the Garden into this earth,

Starting point is 00:04:03 right, what we call mortality, it's not meant to be always easy in a bed of roses. How else are we going to grow and learn? And by understanding that, that when we are the most humble are typically in the midst of storms, when we are the most teachable

Starting point is 00:04:21 are typically in the midst of chaos, and when we don't feel like we have control of our lives. And a death of a child, it obviously is a storm and it is a trial to process, to understand things that I prayed for didn't happen the way I thought would happen, right? So how do you process that? Great question. That's a great question.

Starting point is 00:04:47 Did it make you doubt your faith? Never. What it made me wonder is, why, you know, are my prayers being answered? Am I being heard? Because what I was praying for wasn't happening. I was obviously praying for a healing and a miracle to occur with a sweet baby that was out of my control. So that was the scary part. It's out of my control. What do I do? Right? We go to work and things that we become experts in and we have certain control of that, but this situation never been through. Right? I didn't have a handbook when I was married to say,

Starting point is 00:05:20 hey, you're going to have a child that's going to pass away and get ready for this. This is what you need to know. No, I had to learn in the moment. There's a scripture in Joshua 1-9, you know, be of good courage, right? Be calm. You'll be safe. I'm paraphrasing, right? All will be taken care of that scripture spoke volumes to me to settle me down to know that the Lord has this, right?

Starting point is 00:05:47 We are in God's hands. After all, he's the creator of the earth. and has all power, and once I was reminded of that, it's like, okay, my wife and I, by coming here and partaking in the sacrament, being reminded of Jesus, going to the temple and feeling of his spirit that you walk through this morning and feeling of that peace and surrounding in there, you know, I can walk out and go into the world, I can do this. I can do this with him. Can't do this by myself. So that didn't make you doubt your faith.

Starting point is 00:06:20 Do you ever have doubts? Do you ever have questions? I did not make me doubt my faith. I said it made me doubt as far as could I do this, but never my faith. Okay, so do you have doubts about your faith? Do you ever have doubts? If so, what are those? Or are you like, I'm 100% sure this is right? Oh, absolutely 100% sure because every individual has to come, even our children, right? We teach them the gospel of Jesus Christ in our homes, but we can't force feed them, right? Everyone has their own awakening.

Starting point is 00:06:51 Everyone has their own coming to themselves. They have to know for themselves and stand on their own two feet. And that's what mortality is about. And so I've had it in my life and I've had it remind it over and over again. That's why we teach and we preach to read the scriptures daily. So we're reminded of these things. We're human. It's easy to forget.

Starting point is 00:07:13 We're distracted. Social media. There's so many distractions, you know, in life. it's good to be reminded as we read scriptures as we come here on a weekly basis to church and partake of that sacrament that we remind that we take his name upon ourselves and try to be better friends, try to be better neighbors. That's all part of the process to truly understand that Christ is that provides this abundant life for us, even when we have these tragedies occur around us or, you know,

Starting point is 00:07:44 the shooting that occurred in the Islamic Center here in San Diego a month ago yesterday, I believe we can still have joy and peace, even though we have these things go around us. Fair enough. So I'm not LDS. No surprise. We talked beforehand, teaching up Viola, evangelical. What would you say to somebody like me who, from the outside, I guess the first question is, what do you think I'm missing out on in terms of the way I practice my faith that LDS would offer? You know, when I look at people of other face, other practices, I don't see you as missing out on, right? That's not my judging in that sense. For those who are interested and want to know more about the Church of Jesus Christ, the Latter of Saints, I would say, take what you have,

Starting point is 00:08:38 the foundation that you've already spent hours, years, learning about, studying about, and teaching about, and come and see if we can add more to that. Here, what's preached in church, obviously the family is our center. The family is the central focus of members of the church, whether they have a traditional family or not. And obviously in the midst of all that is Jesus Christ. And what we have with that, as you know,

Starting point is 00:09:11 we are building almost, there are almost, there's 380 plus temples in the world. And that's, we're the only organization that I'm aware of as putting the effort and resources into temples. Because not just do we need to learn of Jesus Christ, but we need to serve others in all religions. That's why I love how religions look to serve others as I work with interfaith leaders here, right?

Starting point is 00:09:38 We want to help. We want to reach out to the imam after the Islamic shoot, after the shooting there. of all different faith. We want to have a candle vigil right from all different faith. Come together. I love that community of inner faith. And then also part of our church, if we know to be true, tell others. Right. We want others to come and see the joy that we feel by being covenant keeping members of the church. And we also, since families are a central focus, what we can add is our genealogy

Starting point is 00:10:12 genealogy work caring for our answers, connecting our kids myself to my ancestors, understanding their stories, right? We're not, none of us are perfect and some of us have some colorful stories so it's fun to hear of those stories and the heritage that we have and then we become this one big family.

Starting point is 00:10:32 Does that help? Does that help? Yeah, sure. I mean, I definitely get knocks on my door. People tell me, I should believe and convert and change. And it's not one big happy family. It's, hey, you've got to believe this. I just got to tour the temple. So there's, I appreciate the ecumenical spirit you're talking about.

Starting point is 00:10:49 I do the same or obviously wouldn't be here. Yeah. But with that said, for something to me on the outside, what would you say to me, how should I best investigate Mormonism? It will be the best way to take a look at it. Or I guess I could ask, why should I become a Latter-day Saints? Well, to answer your question, the best way is, because I know you believe in going straight to the source. If you want to believe and know the truth of something, go straight to the source.

Starting point is 00:11:21 Don't go to a secondary source. So read the book of Mormon. We believe it's another testament of Jesus Christ, just as we believe in the Bible, testifies of Jesus. So read the book of Mormon. and be open to it, be grateful for what the immediate goodness of God in your life, and be open to it and pray it with a sincere heart if this is true, right? If this really does have scriptures that complement and add to the Bible, that's the key.

Starting point is 00:11:53 They work together hand in hand, those two books. And so go straight to the source is what I would say, rather than going to secondary sources about truth. you want to find universal truth, whether it be of religious or of other matters, go straight to the source. I just gave a talk to a bunch of educators, I think three days ago from the time we're recording this, two days ago. There's about seven questions to gauge if you really love truth. And one is, do we read issues and books that differ with us, or only listen to voices that agree with us? It's about 15 or 20 years ago. I read the book of Mormon. I actually prayed about it.

Starting point is 00:12:33 gotten some criticism from some evangelicals you shouldn't pray about it. I'm like, well, it says if you pray with a contrite spirit, it'll be shown to this true. And I read all of it, read the pro great price, doctrine and covenants, read it through. And when I was done, I had more questions and was untroubled, like troubled in my spirit, not settled in my spirit. So I can honestly say before the Lord that I went to the source and read it in the way that you described. And what was would my next step be going, all right, went to the source, didn't find it compelling, found some historical issues, biblical issues, theological issues that concern me. What should I do now? Great question. You know, as I talk to friends and others in that situation, we all have our own

Starting point is 00:13:29 communion with God. And we all know when we feel the Spirit of God and the Spirit speaks in the language that we understand, that we know. So how you feel the Spirit of God could be different how I feel the Spirit of God. And that's the beauty, how we're all individual sons and daughters of God. And so he speaks into a way, we have to have a believing heart. That's the basic. We have to have a believing heart. I have questions, of course, you know, how certain things are connected. But at the end the day, as I read the book of Mormon, I just know it's true from the feelings that I have that speak to my mind and my heart. It's not just, you know, do I get emotional? It's not just, you know, that type of feeling. It's, I know it's from the spirit that speaks to my heart. But I'm glad that

Starting point is 00:14:22 you've given the effort. That's awesome. It took a long time. That's a big book, by the way. It's a big book. And if you also read the Doctrine Covenants, you know, if I know there are Bibles that are redlined, you know, when Jesus is speaking, it's redlined. I know the redlined. Right. And so if the Doctrine Covenants were redlined, it would have the most red line of all scripture, because that's direct from the source. Hey, listeners, it's Kelly from Life Audio. We know life gets busy, and sometimes it's easy for your faith to get pushed to the side.

Starting point is 00:14:50 That's why we created the good word, a free weekly newsletter designed to give you a moment to slow. down, be encouraged, and reconnect with what matters most, God's Word. Inside, you'll find devotionals, guided prayers, podcast recommendations, and other faith-filled content we think you'll love. No ads, no clutter. Just good content to help you stay rooted in God's word throughout your week. Sign up for the good word today at lifeadio.com forward slash the good word. That's life audio.com forward slash the good word. And we know for it to be scripture, right, it has to be direct from Christ, either from himself, from his own voice, or through his prophets. We were chatting a little bit before about my dad. He's 87 years old.

Starting point is 00:15:42 And I didn't tell you. His story was he grew up in a really broken background. And I wouldn't even go into detail. We're talking about, well, there was sexual abuse. His father was an alcoholic, my grandfather. And my dad met some Christians who were different. They just had a joy in life. And he grew up without. that. I mean, to be honest to the, we're sitting around as a family and my sister and my younger sister asked my dad, she's like, give me one good memory when you were a kid and I'll never forget Neil. He looks this in the eyes and he goes, I don't have one. I mean, one, rarely a day goes by,

Starting point is 00:16:14 but I don't have at least one good memory with my family. My dad's journey was he was challenged by some Christians and he thought it was a joke. So he set out, this would have been, I guess this would been in the 50s to prove that the Bible is not true, to show that Jesus did not rise from the grave, and Jesus didn't claim to be God. So he was actually trying to gather the evidence to prove that it was false. He was surprised by the archaeological evidence, by the manuscript evidence, by the testimony evidence, like, well, this describes real things in history. Jesus claimed to be God and ended up becoming a Christian, changed his life, forgave my grandfather, which was was really powerful and got to see him really lead him to the Lord and then never have another

Starting point is 00:17:00 sip of alcohol. And his grandfather was a drunk. I mean, the change was instant. But one of the things my dad's built into me, he goes, son, love truth. And so for me, you said, you got to have a believing heart. I mean, I have searched my heart and I'm willing to believe truth where it goes and pay the price for it. That was one of my other second questions to this group. I'm like, Are you willing to pay a price for what you believe? If not, you don't really believe it. But in part for me, it's not enough to read a book and have a feeling. I'm like, did this happen in history?

Starting point is 00:17:32 Is this actually objectively true? Do you disagree with that approach? Is there the evidence to back up the book of Mormon like that? What would you say to somebody like me who's looking at this saying, this claims to be events in history, there claims DNA lineage, there's a claim about the authorship of the book of Abraham. like those are the questions as an apologist. Would you say, don't ask those questions?

Starting point is 00:17:57 We have the answers. Just have faith. What would your response be to somebody who's like, if you could show me it's true, I actually would believe it. Sure. Wouldn't that be great if all scripture was perfectly understood and perfectly put together? But you said something, or just have faith?

Starting point is 00:18:16 And that's the key. Why do we have bad things happening in this world when we know God is good? because we have to have faith to connect the dot for me to be how do we how do i go over this bridge over this scary water right i can say that all the archaeological things i can say all the physical evidence have all been proven right as the years go on more and more things are being discovered you know was there cement where there are horses you know all these things regarding the book of Mormon they've all been proven but that but that's not what you anyone should have their basis on

Starting point is 00:18:47 for the veracity of the book of Mormon um yes there is wrestling with what I call of the restoration. Yeah, the book of Abraham, right? There are some questions that I don't have the answer. So do I have questions? I don't have doubts. I have questions. Sure. There are certain questions that I don't know exactly how certain things came together, but I tell you, when I read it, it's the gospel of Jesus Christ. When I read in the book of Moses or the book of Abraham, you know, of the Pearl Great Price, it is so true because it compliments, It confirms. It comes together with the Bible,

Starting point is 00:19:24 and it comes together with the Book of Mormon. They all are this one truth in Christ. And so, yes, if you want to get into the background, you know, how could Joseph Smith translate the Book of Mormon in such a short period of time? Well, my goodness, you know, if Jesus can, you know, spit on the ground and, you know, take some dirt and heal someone that's blind,

Starting point is 00:19:44 well, I can believe in things can happen over a speeding period. Well, Jesus was God. That's a little bit of a different. Prince. Right. But that's what I'm saying, but he's involved in our lives, right? We know miracles occur. We know that I definitely agree with you on that way. Angels can surround us, right? So there is a higher power around all of us and can be. But faith is the key for that power to be actuated, right? Fair enough. Yep. So you teach here, like weekly, you preach. What is a, like, what does a Mormon sermon look like? I've been to a ward multiple times. And every time I go, it's like, it's like, like testimony week. I'm like, I kind of want to hear somebody preach. So go on the Sunday other than the first Sunday of the month. That's when it is. Okay, I didn't get that memo. I guess it's obvious.

Starting point is 00:20:29 I've gone multiple times with students just to visit and they've always been super gracious, welcome me in. Tell me just like really quickly, what do you, what is it like? How do you preach? How do you prep? What does that look like? Great question. So as I mentioned, there's nine congregations. So it's not just in this building. It's in other buildings. And so, So just like to actuate faith, you have to put some work in. So I'll reach out to the local bishop, ask him what his concerns are, or what are some things going on in that local congregation, right? We're humans.

Starting point is 00:21:01 We're dealing with the experiment of life, right? We all have issues that we're dealing with. And so I'll ask him, and so I'll get a feel of what he's looking at. I know what our prophet, our President Dalai Chokes and the 12, the quorum of the 12, what they're focused on, because we believe that they're prophets here as revelaer. So that is prophecy and that is instruction that we should have for the whole church. So I'll put those two together.

Starting point is 00:21:30 And I'll have to do my own studying and praying to know. And then I will come. And sometimes I have prepared thoughts written down with an outline. And other times I don't. I'll just come. You walk behind that pulpit and you don't have notes. You're just talking? Sometimes I don't.

Starting point is 00:21:44 Okay. Right? Because we know that in order to have a meeting, we have to have the Spirit of God. and they're guided by the spirit. And we go by that. But that takes preparation. I have to put on the work on a daily basis, right, to treasure up the words of God. You're pulling from going to seminary all the way back as growing up.

Starting point is 00:22:02 Fair enough. Well, no, could I remember everything I was taught in seminary? No, but you're not just making it up as you go along. So when you talk to your congregation, how do you define what faith is? Like you've used that term a few words. What does faith mean? What is faith? Like if your congregation said, what would they call you?

Starting point is 00:22:23 They wouldn't call you pastor. They would call you. President Walton. President Walton. Okay. What is faith? How would you answer that? Faith is the first principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the very first foundational principle.

Starting point is 00:22:39 And faith is not just, I hope, that the sun comes out today. Faith is a belief and a trust and a confidence in the Lord Jesus, Savior. Christ. The faith has to be focused on Jesus Christ. And as faith doesn't necessarily that I believe, does the Israelites, as they went into the sea, did they really think it was going to part? Faith is action. You have to, again, have action. You have to step into that water, get your feet wet. Oh, nothing's going on here. Moses told us to go across, but we have to maybe get up to our knees, get up to our waist. We have to take action. We have to take action. So faith is a principle of action.

Starting point is 00:23:22 And then from that, God will bless us, whatever we're hopeful. So trust, action, confidence. Okay, fair enough. We were also chatting about this a little bit before. I was trying to give you some of the questions ahead of time to prep, which I appreciate when people do with me. But I'm curious what you think is the biggest misconception that evangelicals or traditional Christians have about Latter-day Saints, Mormon Church, your beliefs, your practices.

Starting point is 00:23:48 What are some of the common ones you hear that you're like, really hear that again? When are they going to fix that? We'll have to be honest because, you know, in my circle over the last 30 years, I haven't come across too many evangelicals. It's just in the areas that I live in, it's mostly Catholics and Jews and Muslims, which I love. You know, we, so as far as misconceptions, you know, these are just general, perhaps misconceptions of members of the church. One that we believe in a godhead, that they are three distinct beings.

Starting point is 00:24:23 God, the Father, and His beloved son, and only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. So that is one foundational doctrine that we believe in. So how often have evangelicals or traditional Christians just showing up and said, I want to sit in church, I want to learn, can we go to coffee, I want to talk to you? Has that happened in the years you've been serving here at all? Rarely because it happens more, not because they're coming to me, but they're coming to their friends. They usually come because a friend has brought them. They're already connected to their friend, and then that friend will go to lunch with them, right?

Starting point is 00:25:02 Go to, you know, go to breakfast with them and go to their house and learn more. Like, what are you guys all about? What's this book of Mormon, right? What are you all about? So those conversations happen more at that level, and I just get to come in. And when I hear about these stories, I get to come in, then meet those friends. I just meant, oh my gosh, this young man who he was already seeking for something, came from Arizona, and he was just walking on the beach, and he saw the missionaries whiteboarding,

Starting point is 00:25:29 meaning they had a board there, and they had a question, you know, and so anyway, he engaged with them, and now he's sotted out, and he prayed about it, and he's on fire, right? And so I get to hear stories like that after the fact, typically. But not a lot of intentional leaders, people are reaching. out saying let's build a relationship, let's talk, let's connect. That doesn't happen. I'm more, I'm more at the interfaith level with other church leaders. And then I'm also, or with members, perhaps, who could be struggling, right, with their faith based on what's going on in their life. So I'll sit down with them and try to understand them and help them and counsel with them.

Starting point is 00:26:06 What do you think are the big differences? We can talk about similarities, and it seems to me there's a concerted effort today to focus on the similarities. One of the things, one of the things I do on my channel that's most important to me is just clarity, no matter what the issue is. Where do we agree? Where do we differ and why? I think people really value that, I found. So where do you think in your mind you and I would differ in terms of traditional Christianity and Latter-day Saints, whether it's practice, doctrine? What are the big differences in your mind? So this is my ignorance because I would say when you say traditional Christianity, we're in that conversation because what we teach is from scripture that comes from traditional Christianity. Jesus Christ is central in the name and title of our church.

Starting point is 00:27:07 Whether church could it be, right, if it doesn't have Jesus Christ in it. This is the same new text. Testament church that Christ organized and set up when he was on the earth during the three years of his preaching. And so I would say that we are in that. We are part of that. Absolutely. And I get, right, because I've studied a little bit, you know, regarding how churches and when they came about in different faith and different religions and different denominations. But at the end of the day, we all believe in the same Jesus Christ. We all believe that he resurrected. We all believe that the tomb is empty.

Starting point is 00:27:51 So, okay, fair enough. I guess in part, I'm searching for a term that would make distinct what LDS believe from, and again, every term is maybe loaded, like a historical Christianity. So you said earlier, like on the Trinity, I thought you made it clear. If I heard you from I understand, like three distinct beings who are divine. So reject the Trinity, which Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic, that's been a central belief. Some would say it was codified in Nicaa.

Starting point is 00:28:23 I think it goes back earlier. That's a separate argument. But that would be an area that would make Latter-day Saint theology. I've tried to read and understand the Nicaan Creed, and it's hard for me to understand, just to be honest. Yeah. I try to understand it. We know in the interactions of the Bible,

Starting point is 00:28:42 you know, Jesus is baptism. It's pretty distinct that there was a voice that wasn't from Jesus. But anyway, yeah, that's one that I'm aware, but what are some differences if you want to go there? So you tell me what some of these are from the evangelical, so maybe I can address those. Yeah, no, that's fair. So I would say I think the Trinity would be a big one, and understand it is a conversation we could have. I'd be happy to sit down and talk that through. But I think that's the vast majority of traditional Christians would say that's an essential view.

Starting point is 00:29:14 I think God the Father having a physical body is one, doctrine of Covenants 1.30, you would believe that, right? That would definitely separate. And we don't have to argue here which view is right or correct. I'm just simply asking what are some of those differences. I think obviously some of the practices like baptizing for the dead, I would have biblical theological reservations with that. I would argue the dynamic between faith and works

Starting point is 00:29:46 and some of the practices within the temple what that entails. So I think that's a fundamental distinction. I think the topic of exaltation would probably be the biggest one that evangelicals would say like timeout. And tied to that would be Jesus being God, but is Jesus the uncreated eternal, unchanging God, that would be a view that Catholic Protestants and Orthodox would hold, that as I understand it, would make it distinct from a Latter-day Saint belief.

Starting point is 00:30:23 These are wonderful discussion points, you know, and I'll just tell you what I know to be true through my studies and through my beliefs. You know, you mentioned baptism, right? We know Christ is the ultimate example, ultimate teacher. in John 3-5, right, he was baptized and that all need to be baptized in order to go into the kingdom of God. He was baptized for himself, the only perfect being. So my goodness, if the one perfect being that walked the earth was baptized, then for sure I need to be baptized. And then what about all those who don't know of Jesus? I served my mission in Brazil, and I came across many

Starting point is 00:31:08 who had never heard of Jesus Christ, even in a very very. very Catholic country and I was surprised by that as a young adult and so that was it was fun to learn and understand and but God wants all his children to come back and so what about them so that's where the temple comes to play because if life ended at death we wouldn't be building temples but we all need baptism it's an essential promise an essential sacred ceremony that we need as we as you know we call ordinance. And so that's where baptism for ancestors come in. And that scriptural basis for that is in, you know, right, 1st Corinthians 15,

Starting point is 00:31:49 as the Apostle Paul was talking to the Pharisees. Because they understood the resurrection. So that's where the spiritual basis for that comes in. As far as, I'm trying to remember the other one after that, that you mentioned after Baptisms for the Dead. What was the other one? I think I mentioned Jesus being uncrefercial. created.

Starting point is 00:32:07 Oh, yeah, uncreated and faith and works. I mean, absolutely. Works alone do not save us. Absolutely. That, I mean, that is essential because, again, faith is the principle that actuates, that activates everything else. So we got to have belief in Jesus. Right? Because all who are born on earth, whether they accept God or not, they're all going to die and we're all going to be resurrected.

Starting point is 00:32:34 We're all going to have our spirit. and our bodies reunite because Jesus resurrected for all the mankind. That's a free gift given to all of us. And I think most would agree on that. And then of course, and then we get into the different degrees of glory, which is now, so we all receive salvation in that sense, but then as far as the degrees of glory, right? You mean we all, meaning all mankind will have some kind of salvation? Meaning, because we're immortal. We're all going to resurrect. Pre-existed. We all pre-existed, which would be a difference, which is fine. We don't have to debate this. I just want people to understand where it's, that would be one of the differences we would have.

Starting point is 00:33:13 But you would say, everybody gets a kind of salvation. But when I say like the ultimate level, celestial kingdom, I mean, you sign off the, my mind's going blank, the permission for people to get into the temple. Right. Temple recommend. Thank you. Temple recommend. You said weekly, you interview a lot of people. Sure. To get to the celestial kingdom, you have to do the ordinances. which we learned about today, which is amazing. You have to be sealed, baptized for the dead, be baptized. These are certain works that somebody has to do to enter in the celestial kingdom.

Starting point is 00:33:47 Yeah, I put it simply, you know, there's order in God's house. I think the simplest way to put, if someone would come to my house they wanted to smoke, I would ask that they'd just go outside to smoke, right? Because I don't want... It's your house. It's my house. It's the same thing.

Starting point is 00:34:04 I would, too, by the way. away. Right? Right? Because that's Tracy and I that we would not want, you know, someone, but that's okay. Go smoke. Go smoke outside. That's right. And then we'll come back. It's the same thing. And that's where we believe covenants are essential, these sacred promises that we make. And that's, we're reminded of them as we go here and partake of the sacrament, right? We're reminded of the covenants that we've made at baptism and in the temple to take his name upon us. They are essential. Another way I describe it is, You know, this covenantal love in Hebrew, it's Hesed.

Starting point is 00:34:39 You know, a mother's love for their child, as you know, I'm sure you're, right, you and your wife love your children deeply. Two of them. Right? Two of them, but not Scottie. No, he assumed it was he. And so, but that love for you is deep and broad and unbreakable. It's a fact.

Starting point is 00:35:02 Your parents love many others, but that's different. It's the same for Heavenly Father, has this covenantal love. And so we need to obey His commandments, right? And so that's why we believe in doing all this, being baptized and going to the temple so they can receive that and have those promises and have those blessings come into their life. And yes, we believe in salvation and then ultimately exaltation, as it says in 1st Corinthians. There also, there's different degrees of glory that differ. Kurt, thanks for an awesome tour today.

Starting point is 00:35:32 You mentioned early, you had a question for me. I said, wait until you could ask it on camera. So I have no idea what you're going to ask, but the mic is yours. No, after watching your channel, which I enjoyed, and I really like the perspective, and like I told you earlier when we were talking, that I think your kind of fresh approach, I have really enjoyed that. I guess the question I have for you is, you know, as you are, as you, as you, you, I know you know quite a bit about the LDS Church probably through years of your education and training and thoughts.

Starting point is 00:36:10 As you think about your, you know, this interaction, what was it that you're looking for from this group? What is it, what is your intent? You know so much about the church. What is this interview? you, what is it that you hope to achieve and your thoughts? Yeah, what's in your, what's in your mind about the LDS Church and about the temple and especially now that you've, maybe before and after? That's a great question. I would say a couple of my biggest motivations are, number one, my son is here with me. So I get a chance to spend time with him, tour this together. We've done the Hindu

Starting point is 00:36:51 temple that you said you watched. He came along with me. Gives us a chance to talk. Second, I just enjoy it. what I do a lot on my channel is talk to people who see the world differently. And I really hope that I can ask good thoughtful questions in a respectful fashion. And I think most people appreciate that. The other thing is I want to learn it from the inside since 1993 when my LDS friend was like, hey, you should come to the temple and it just didn't happen. I've wanted to see it from the inside. So I think, again, I'm not LDS and I don't have any other way to frame it.

Starting point is 00:37:25 then I just, I don't find it true or compelling to be completely honest with you. But being in the temple today, one of my takeaways was, okay, I think I get it intellectually and emotional, at least more than I did. Why people find it. You can connect some dots on, I think that's one of the things I've most enjoyed about watching your content was that at the end of the day, to me, there's, I love the, variety in life. I mean, I know that we're all here in this, we're kind of in our boxes and echo chambers. And I think that's really unhealthy. I agree. I really appreciate. And I think that what you did in going to those other locations coming to see us today and talking with President Walton today,

Starting point is 00:38:17 I just, I just think it's so, we need more of that. I realize we're probably, there are a lot of ways that, and not just evangelical Christians and the as mentors of the LDS Church. We're not, we're probably just not going to sometimes connect dots, and that's okay. That does not bother me. Yeah. I think it's just, that's part of life that's beautiful. So I really appreciate that. That's why I've enjoyed about your context, because it's very honest and very, like you said, truth-seeking.

Starting point is 00:38:52 I think we need more of that. And I think also, though, on the other hand, I will say, I think that we can fall into a trap of only looking for where we're not, where we're different. And I think that you probably, we talked about this. We're DNA-wise, you know, creed-wise, whatever, you're, you're, there are, we as humans, whatever your faith tradition may be, we're not that far apart. and I'm not talking about the Church of Jesus Christ,

Starting point is 00:39:24 the Latter-day Saints versus anybody else comparison. Just saying in general, I don't care if you're Hindu or whatever it may be. We're humans. We all are seeking for higher light, higher places, happiness, health and happiness in our lives. And so I appreciate that part of it. I mean, I appreciate you doing that. Thanks for saying that.

Starting point is 00:39:47 I guess to sum up, I'll say. I know that there are different. I'm going to say we're not. Oh, of course. Of course. To sum up, time with my son. I just find it interesting. I want to learn.

Starting point is 00:39:57 I want to educate people. That's my motivation. And what's all of a sudden done, I'm an evangelist. You guys knock on my door and tell me I should believe in Latter-day Saint. I don't know. Like, kudos to you. Like the loving thing to do is to tell somebody what you think is true. And so there's an evangelist to me that hopes people watch this and check out what I think is true.

Starting point is 00:40:17 And I would say, grab your mic, though. No, I was grateful for this opportunity because, as you can tell, I don't know the nitty-gritty differences between our religions. And I was grateful to study a little bit about, but I still don't know. So I was grateful to learn. And at some point in this world, we're both in Southern California, I may need you. Right? We've just made a connection here. And so we can work together and whatever that need is down the road.

Starting point is 00:40:49 And that's the way I see all of us a different face, right? We are all interwoven in these connections that we have in our communities and around that we're going to need each other, lift each other up. Socially and culturally, that is a fact. Definitely having conservative values that we share. Thanks for your time. There's a lot of people who would not be willing to sit down with an apologist. I just kind of pepper them with some questions. Really appreciate that.

Starting point is 00:41:15 And this has been memorable. and I think my audience is going to take a lot away from it. So thanks for doing this. And by the way, if you ever like, you know what we're having interfaith, faith dialogue, and need somebody to just say what he says, hopefully respectfully and in a, yeah, respectful fashion. I'd be happy to drive back down here and be a part of it. I'd do that any time. Absolutely.

Starting point is 00:41:38 No, I just believe that when we don't have knowledge of other people or religions, that's where we can get anxious and, and feel the differences and the divides are bigger than they really are. And so I'm grateful to learn about what you do, what you believe and strongly believe in. I love that about you. And I love having this conversation because I'll walk away understanding of evangelicals even more and even better. So thank you. Hey, friends. If you enjoyed this show, please hit that follow button on your podcast app.

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The Sean McDowell Show - Asking a Mormon Leader My Hardest Questions

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