The Sean McDowell Show - Breaking Bad and The Walking Dead: Faith and Film in Hollywood

Episode Date: March 8, 2025

Can a Christian thrive in Hollywood? Should they even try? What kinds of movies should Christians watch? These are the kinds of questions we tackle with Tom Halleen, the founding dean of Biola’s Snyder School of Cinema and Media Arts. He's a former executive AMC, BBC America, IFC, Sundance TV and WeTV and helped launch of groundbreaking and Emmy winning series including Mad Men, Breaking Bad, and The Walking Dead. Hope his story inspires you or any other creatives looking to impact the Kingdom of God through media. *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: @sean_mcdowell Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org

What's it mean to think biblically about television and film today? What's it like for Christians trying to make a difference in TV and film? And how should Christian actors and actresses think about the roles that they're asked to play? We'll discuss these questions and a whole lot more with our guest Tom Helene, 30 year industry veteran best known for his work as executive VP at AMC, launching some of the most successful shows and television such as Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, and The Walking Dead. And your current and founding dean

of the Snyder School of Cinema and Media Arts here at Biola University. I'm your host, Scott Ray. I'm your cohost, Sean McHale. This is Think Biblically from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. Tom, welcome. Really glad to have you with us.

We've been wanting to do this for some time, and I'm so glad we can get you here. We've got lots of questions about what the world view of the industry is like, and how people who claim to follow Jesus and want to faithfully follow Jesus can make a difference in that arena. So, tell us first, how did you become interested in film, and just a little bit about your experience

in the film and television industry. Oh, I'm happy to, and thank you for the invitation. I love sharing about the media. It's been the world I've lived within for three decades now, as a Christian the entire time. It really goes back to my college days, and it's coincidental now that I'm a college dean, this was the pivotal moment in my own life.

I thought I wanted to be an attorney because my dad was and he was great at it from what he told me. I love it. No, he actually was excellent and I thought well if dad can do it, I can do it. But my heart wasn't in it. I didn't love learning about it. What was it that I wanted to learn? What was it that fascinated me about the world around me that I wanted to bring my faith into? It actually was television that gripped me. And the reason why is I realized that this

was an invited guest into the homes of the world's population, right? That screen. And the messages that it was bringing into your home, I looked at that and not only did I recognize how it was impacting me, but those around me and what its potential is. But most importantly, I also realized it didn't understand me because the way it represented faith, presenting us as, you know, faith being a crutch or that we're not smart or that we're not diligent and we are stupid for believing this. That wasn't the Christians that... those weren't the Christians I knew. That wasn't me. I'm an analytical, right? I research things. I do charts and graphs. And faith is, as it was then, logical to me. Why isn't faith represented the way that I understand it to be in the media?

Well, you think about life. Many times it comes down to people just not understanding faith. Knowing that the media is the most powerful form of communication on the planet, and if they don't understand faith, those behind the screen, how do we help them to understand what faith really is? You need to do it from the inside. You need to show them, not tell them, not point the finger with accusations. You have to demonstrate love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, self-control, and all that additionally wraps up into that. So to answer your question, my belief of being called into the industry at that time was based on not becoming rich and famous. It was based on demonstrating faith to those who might not know or see what faith is and maybe,

maybe we can start seeing change in the industry when we represent that our faith is not our weakness, it's our strength. I love that. I've also always loved movies and I remember when I was a student here, a college student, watching the Michael Medved show, Hollywood versus Religion, just completely opened up my eyes. I thought, oh my goodness, there's an entirely different way of seeing the world. And religious people are portrayed a certain fashion. It was game changing for me. Now, amidst that contrast, you said you've been in film three decades, film and TV. How many Christians are working there?

And has this shifted at all in the past three decades as far as you can tell? I want to encourage you, there are thousands. When I came into the industry 30 years ago, I thought I was the only one. Really? Truly. And yet that I didn't look at that and say, well, that's not where we're supposed to be. You look at that as saying that's where we need to be. And I'm willing to take that step not knowing another soul who believed as I believed. And I entered into it with faith and trust that God you will, I don't imagine you would call me

into something in life and not provide the path, not provide the support. And that support came, it started through one individual. His name is Larry. He was a six foot four, Swede, bright white hair, huge broad shoulders, and someone says, Tom, I know you feel alone. You need to meet Larry. And I was on Ventura Boulevard, Jerry's Deli, if you've been there. I don't even know if Jerry's Deli is still there. But he and I met for lunch, and I walked in, and he looks at me and says, Tom, I'm Larry. And he gives me a big bear hug. And he says, I just want you to know you are not alone. I'm going to start introducing you. And over the course of the next number of years I became part of a prayer group.

Every other week we would meet at CBS headquarters executives from around the industry who had a common faith, just supporting one another, praying for one another, sharing business tips. You know, it was about community. So that was my start. And over the course of these decades, and even now in my new role here at Biola University, I am still meeting more and more and more faith-filled Christians at the highest levels of this industry, right? It's not just those on the screen, but we're talking executives who are running major organizations that you don't know

because you, because they don't sit there and say, I'm a Christian, you need to do this or that. They are living their faith and have earned incredible reputations within this business. They are there, right? This is not just a mission field, right? This is about demonstrating what faith looks like through excellence in craft, right, what we do, but excellence in character, who we are, how we live our faith. So how, in terms of the craft side, how did you get your start? Nobody starts out as an executive. What was your point of entry into the industry? I started out as an intern and I said this is amazing. I get to show them that

they can rely on me. So it didn't matter the task and my first tasks were cleaning a closet and getting lunch. It was a network at the time called the Family Channel. It's now known as Freeform, still on the air. I was the assistant to the assistant for, you know what, I want to take a step back because this is something really important about when you know God has called you to do something. I was at the time attending or planning to attend Regent University. I was trying to find an internship to get my feet wet before I began. And sometimes as we find in life, the things that we want are under a little

different timeline than what God wants, or at least He's waiting until the point that He knows we're ready. So I was out in Virginia Beach interviewing, trying to get something, offering to work for free, and I could not take some... no one would take me on until I met with one gentleman, his name was Steve, and Steve says, well listen, I would love to take you on, I can't, but have you thought about sending your resume to, and he gives me a point of contact, over at the Family Channel, which was based out there. The day my resume landed on the desk of the head of personnel, resume landed on the desk of the

head of personnel, the assistant to the head of original programming calls down and says, we desperately need an intern. Do you have anyone in mind? Okay? Right? Luck when preparation meets opportunity. Right? We don't call it luck. It is God's Moments to I think show off and say I got you I've got your back and this is where I need you to be and I'm not going to bring you there and leave you hanging But he waited until the last moment when I was about to say I'm gonna go back home and then then he said, okay, Tom, now you're ready. And the miracle happened. So I worked for an intern for a gentleman

named Terry, who has become a dear friend for 35 years. and he taught me the industry starting with seeing that I could clean a closet really well, and I could get lunch, and I can deliver coffee, I can be trusted with the small things, and then he provided me a little more. And then I earned my trust in that and a little more. So my career began from cleaning closets to be invited to shadow him on a TV show, to be given a TV show to supervise. Different bosses through the years now, from a show to multiple to movies to a division to lead a department to lead a network to lead two networks to lead five networks where I was until the point that God called me to Biola, but always with the same mindset, you serve others. And

God, my career is not mine. It's yours. My finances are not mine. It's yours. I'm willing to go wherever you call. He just ended up keeping me in this business for 30 years until he says, I have another thing ready for you. Well, our students are blessed to have you here and you know, our podcast is called Think Biblically. So maybe kind of starting at the top as we jump in, what does it mean to think biblically about cinema, media, television, film? What does that look like? How do we apply that? As consumers, I think it requires us to look at the content we choose to take in from a

biblical perspective through that lens and to ask ourselves not just what is this teaching us, what is the product, the characters, the decisions they're making, what is that teaching us, but it's also asking ourselves a more important question, what are we seeking from that content as a Christian? Content can be great, right? Some content is great, some content is bad, right? But all content teaches us something. What are you willing to be taught? What are you choosing to be taught by the choices we make in viewing content from a biblical perspective. I think it's key and what I'm trying to help students understand is their role within it as

consumers and the choices we all make, but also as media creators, the choices they make, what they are choosing to put on the screen and why they are choosing it. What leave behind do they intend with the product that they create? So Tom, you know you've been, you know, now you're mentoring young men and women who are hoping to enter the film industry and television, various various media aspects. What are some of the most common pitfalls that you've seen Christians fall into when trying to enter the industry and make a kingdom difference? Well there's a few, right?

More than a few. Some of the pitfalls of the industry globally is it's a very tempting industry when it comes to the money and the power and the fame. And we can easily fall into this mindset of saying my value is whether I get my name on that credit or the box office receipts from performing on that project or directing it or writing it or being an executive behind the scenes, value can easily be attributed into the product that we do. That is first. The other pitfall along with that is that can be a very hollow way of looking at life because it's reactive to other people's view of you.

And I don't want students to enter into this industry feeling that that should be their goal. Right? It's not about getting your name on a credit. That's not what defines success. Success to us here in the Snyder School is are you doing what God has called you to do? here in the Snyder School is, are you doing what God has called you to do? Regardless of the level, right? Our careers are not ours, they're His. Our finances are not ours, but His. How hard are you willing to go after what God has called you to do? Do you have the courage to try doors to see if they're opened

or locked, not to sit back and just wait and pray for open doors. I believe as Christians, especially in this industry, it's about leaning in, it's about owning their faith, never letting anyone deconstruct it, or exchange it to say, that's weak, you need the power, you need the fame, you need the influence. No, everyone needs Jesus. And I want our students to demonstrate faith not just by what they create, but all of the relationships they have along the way. I had someone ask me once, what does it mean to be a Christian director? Love the question.

I love when students ask questions like this. And here's my response, and we can talk about whether you agree with this response or not. This is my view. Being a Christian director isn't so much about what you choose to direct as much as how you treat other people when you direct. Our story is not ours, it's his story. We play supporting roles in that. Our story, his story is told through the interactions throughout this industry and should never be determined or judged just based on, oh, they worked on this project,

therefore they might not have a strong enough faith. I worked on some pretty provocative shows. I was part of the team, I mean, the Walking Dead and Breaking Bad, right? An amazing team. I'm honored to have been part of working with some of the most creative executives and content creators in the industry. But it's not about just

the product, it's about how you interact with those along the way. That's part of what I want to help students understand. Let me give you an example of one of the one of the one of the cinema school's grads who did just what you're talking about. He's one of our business students who was considering after graduation going into the business side of the entertainment industry. And he was at a conference that sort of helped his networking conference, helping people just

get their feet wet in this. And an agent approached him, and they got to talking. And an agent approached him and they got to talking and the agent asked him, he said, have you ever thought about acting? He never considered it. And so the agent suggested that he actually take that seriously. Ended up, let me get a long story short,

he landed a role on a CBS sitcom and made, you know, just made him hit a home run in the episode that he was in. And then later got picked up by a very exclusive agency, I'm not familiar which one, but one where you don't call them, they call you. Yeah. And the reason they liked him was they said,

we love what you do on screen, but the reason we wanted you as one of our clients is because of the reputation you have for how you treat people off set. How you treat the staff, how you treat the production assistants, how you treat the interns, how you treat the sound folks and the cinematographer.

Basically, how you treat all the folks who really make this thing happen. And it was, that's what attracted them to it was his character as well. I mean, he was excellent in his craft, but it was his character that actually set him apart. And this is a growing trend right now within the industry. I'll speak to the negative. A trend is a what what the studios are telling me the recruiters at the studios are saying is there is a there's no

lack of skills coming out of most universities but there is a lack of character in the students. the students, right, follow through social skills for these environments, integrity, all of these things that are foundational to faith. And when I talk to these same recruiters who say that more than 40% of new college grads hired by the studios from out of academia are fired within the first year. Is that right? Said why is that? They say because of attitude and character. Interesting. And so I say, so what we have built within the Snyder School here at Biola is a program that emphasizes excellence in craft, the skills, and excellence in character.

If we are delivering to you students who not just are great at what they do, but great at who they are, is that of interest to you. And they say that is the golden ticket. You send students out like that, that is what we're not seeing enough of, yet that is the heart of what we teach that's also the heart of faith. Right? And we want to demystify faith to this industry and we do it through character. And this is what they're saying they need. That's very encouraging. What we already have inside.

Before you got to Biola, I asked the previous director of the film school, I said, how do you explain that so many of the film school's graduates are finding consistent, sustainable work in the industry. You know what he said? I'll never forget. He said, because they show up. Yes. They show up. And what he meant by that is that we can trust them, you know, they have integrity, you know, they say, they do what they say they're gonna do, and they show, and they actually show up on time and ready to put in a good effort.

Absolutely, it is. As a Biola dad, this is the school, again, I was in Manhattan running television networks. Biola was the school we chose to send our son. He wanted media training. And these were the three filters that we used in this choice. Number one, it has to be a school that's unapologetically Christian. None of this Christian-lite stuff, I mean, believing faith, biblical faith, unchanged, not swayed by culture,

faith, unchanged, not swayed by culture, but focused on what is true, right? So that was a condition. You have to be a Christian to attend. You have to be a Christian to work here. That was our first filter. Second filter, it has to have faculty that actually have experience in the industry, right, who can make? It's got a statement like that, right? Because they know they've been there, they've been within it. And third, proximity to the industry. To be adjacent to the world's entertainment capital and to be unapologetically Christian and to focus on craft and character, it is the reason why we chose Biola, and I truly believe whether they will say it this directly or not, it's one of the reasons,

this character side of the training, is one of the reasons why we are now known as one of the top film schools in North America. And that's amongst many of the major state or private institutions that we've all heard about, and yet God's favor, God's provision through the actions, the behaviors of those who graduate and their influence has made this university stand out as being amongst the best. Let me go back to when we asked you how do you think biblically about

film and TV. You said two things. What we create, also what we consume. Yes. And then you said when it comes to, correct me if I don't state this correctly, but when it comes to like say being a Christian director, it's less what you create, more the character and excellence you bring to it. You cited Breaking Bad, Walking Dead. By the way, Breaking Bad is my all-time favorite show, hands down. My son, who's a violin, we've watched it all the way through and we talk about it. Now, there are some

non-Christian ideas about the soul and its all chemistry woven in, but there's some deeply biblical ideas about if you let sin run its course, this is exactly what happens. So I think I wouldn't recommend it for like my 12 year old son. I'm like, not yet, which means yes, it's about character and excellence, but there is a limit. I get asked all the time from people, what shows do I let my kids watch? What shows should Christians watch? So in that I'm assuming there'd be some point where you'd say, yeah it's not just excellence, I draw the line here. What principles either for directing or for just consuming would you give for

Christians who want to be excellent but also don't want to be unwise in terms of what they consume and create? Yeah, it's interesting that you talk about that. I received a... it was a list of questions from a high schooler who was just curious about these same topics. And I brought my response with me because I want to tell you what he told him because, again, I love when students ask questions, and for a high schooler to ask these types of questions, right? All about content, what you should watch, what you should work on, how does a Christian discern that? And there are three verses that stood out. Matthew 6, 22 to 23, right? The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are

healthy, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness? Right? These are choices. Right? Philippians 4, 8. Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. Amen. And then 1 John 2, 16, for everything in this world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life comes not from the Father, and the pride of life comes not from the Father, but from the world. And then I went on to say, as consumers of media, we must determine our reason for watching

films or TV series or playing interactive games which contain sensitive or controversial themes. It's not automatically bad to do so. It's all about what you're seeking by doing so. What are you seeking from it? Even between the three of us and those who are listening or watching, we have different levels of tolerance, right? We have different levels of sensitivity, but we all have a common God and we have a common mind and role within His story. We do have to discern the choices we make and what we take away from them. Do we watch some of this product and take it in unknowingly, now being desensitized to behaviors that are not uplifting? Or can we watch a show like that and say, huh, let's talk about it. There is power in dialogue. Did you know that Christians within this business, and we all go

through it, right? We are in roles. We all have people above us who we work for. We don't have unilateral control over every piece of content. We are all working really hard in this industry representing our faith. And we all hit moments of conflict within that faith, whether that comes through content or actions we're asked to do, misrepresenting facts, for example. Do you know, I had a boss once who asked me to lie about something. What do you do as a Christian when you are working for someone who's asking you to misrepresent truth?

Here's what I said. I said, if you remember the first time we met, I told you that this is how I roll. I'm never going to lie to you. I will always be honest. I always want you to know you will get a straight answer from me. That's how I am. The day you asked me to lie for you is the day you give me permission to lie to you. And that's not a line I'm willing to cross. Wow. I thought I would be fired. That is a brilliant response. But you

know what? In those moments when the industry sees your authenticity, that you live out your faith honestly, at the end of the day, right, they want people they can trust. They want people who many times are not like them, but you are who they need and they know that. And in this case I knew this was someone who needed someone that they could trust and I wanted to be that. Someone who didn't have a reputation of being of understanding faith, maybe rigid about faith, I wanted to demonstrate what faith really looks like and that was a moment and I was willing to put my job on the line because everything would have been lost if I would have just said sure. Let me, I got two follow-ups on this. One is, are there other places in the last 30

years where being authentic in your faith has cost you professionally? I cannot think of one instance, right? And this is one of the reasons why I'm here at Biola, to say you don't need to hide from your faith. The industry will accept you in what you believe. And I know it's... That's a very broad statement. And there are a lot of people who don't understand faith in life or who may be rigid to what we believe because of past experiences. So as you enter into this business, demonstrate it through character. And I have always had everyone who's ever I've worked for always got to the point where they eventually asked, what is it about you? And that's when God opens the door and you can say something like, I have had the opportunity to say,

thank you for noticing. Faith has always been the heart of how I live my life. And you know what my faith calls me to be? For you is the greatest employee, the one you can rely on, the one you can trust, the one you know is working hard in support of you. I want to be that for you and that's what faith means. Here's a second follow-up on this and I've got a personal interest in this because I've got a son who's an actor and are there, because you talked about directors, you know, certain things

that, you know, certain content that directors ought to be careful about. Are there certain roles or how should an actor or actress think about the role certain things that certain content that directors ought to be careful about. Are there certain roles or how should an actor or actress think about the roles that they are being asked to portray? Because I know in some cases, you can accept an offer and then you see the script later. You may not be aware of what you're signing in signing on for. But how do you help the people who are acting to think biblically about the roles that they take and the ones they portray?

Hollywood is filled with themes and stories that may be inconsistent with our worldview. And each performer, and I think in that case you should ask actors how they discern. I can speak from an executive standpoint in what we do, right? We have a role, it's our choice to fulfill that role. It is, especially for an actor, it's never an obligation. They can choose to take a role or not. And different actors that I know have different tolerance levels for different roles, but they are portraying not themselves, they're portraying someone else. And so they need to determine within themselves how deep to go into that character.

When you think about characters in general, right, think about how Jesus, the characters Jesus talked about through his parables, through the stories. I mean, there's some pretty intense people through Scripture. And sometimes through intensity and through different themes, we can best show what conversion looks like, right? Sometimes you to go into a level of presenting characters and sin. But this is not to say that we should just have a free-for-all and do whatever we choose to, right? It comes back to not just what we choose to do, but why. And so I do know some actors that they draw that line and they say I will not cross this and they hold to it and they have lost jobs for that. But it's their conviction and I honor that conviction.

But in also doing so I know actors that have been in you know more you know, more provocative roles, never on the furthest fringes, I'll say R-rated types of roles, who I know their faith is genuine, right? My faith was questioned by some because of my association with certain shows. As Christians, we have to be really cautious to not prejudge ourselves, because one of us is working on something that may be not what we would think, right? Breaking Bad as an example, Walking Dead, right? I had a really great Christian friend reach out to me once and says, I think your faith is, I'm concerned about your faith because of your association. And this is a common discussion we have as

Christians in the industry. Did you know that those who are producing faith-based product get more criticism from Christians than from non-Christians, it's common amongst us. Again, we are living our faith, and yet we are criticized by others questioning our faith, even just due to our association with certain shows. It hurts, to be honest, because we are genuine, we are, you know, working hard to represent, to demystify Christianity as I said earlier. We want to know that we're being prayed for. I'm on the board of, you know, a few

organizations and one of the boards that I serve on proudly is the Hollywood Prayer Network. Love it. Love the team over there. And their calling is to pray for those in Hollywood. And what we have experienced as part of that is some people have told us Hollywood is not worth praying for. Really? It's too lost.

That hurts. Right? It is not. And there are thousands inside this industry who are living out their faith, trying to create change from the inside. And we are sticking together. And we are showing the industry that faith is strength, not weakness, right? We are talking when, the number of times I've been able to talk with fellow leaders,

Tom, I'm struggling with this. How do you think I should handle it? These are the issues that we are talking about, and we are working together. So please pray for us. Don't abandon us. That's one of the reasons why I stepped out of the industry to come here, because I need these students to know

their voice matters. They have, if they feel called, don't worry about what that looks like yet. Let's focus on why. Why you are called. What imprint are you looking for? And let God help us together to guide you into your supporting role in His story through the media.

But for those not in the media, support those who are doing this, right? We are building storytellers, parabolic storytellers, right? I am, you know, some like investing in single movies, single TV shows, that's awesome, right? Go to the box office, right? For those that are representing your faith, support them, show that you appreciate them, and the rest of us on the inside are going to continue to increase the quality, increase the power of the story, and for us, I want to send out thousands of Dallas Jenkins' right into this world

to create more and more and more content to represent, to respect faith, let alone to represent what we believe. Tom, when the first Deadpool came out, I was teaching high school full-time, we had 90 minute block periods and I just said, here's a question, let's talk about it. Can and should a Christian watch Deadpool? And you have the legalistic side that you can err towards, but then there's also the libertine side that can go too far. How do you balance that? And one of the things you're really encouraging me is that just Christians are wrestling with that and give them the benefit of the doubt,

at least initially, and pray for them. And that's a really helpful encouragement for me. Now some of your insights you're given is about the character, about how we direct, about how we act. That's kind of an internal missional approach maybe to reaching people within Hollywood. But there's also that outward focus using films, using TV to try to take a message and advance Christianity beyond kind of the world of Hollywood. How do you balance those two and what's the message you would give to Christians to try to create films and in what way that positively influences society and potentially the gospel. It is critical. Some are called, even within our own student body, some are called into the secular side,

some are called into the faith-based side. There is room for all of that. The media is the most powerful form of communication on the planet. How are we going to use the media, to use the screen? I should say the screens, right? The movie screen, which is a 50-foot experience. The TV screen, a 10-foot experience. Your computer screen, a 2-foot. Your phone screen, a one foot experience. How are we going to, as Christians, utilize the power of these screens to bring hope into the world, not more chaos? It's incredibly powerful. So that is part of the equation is don't just look at behavior as the only thing on representing faith in this industry.

Consider the choices that you make. Now, it takes a while before you're at a point of making those decisions. Yeah, right. So, earn your reputation and that gets you a seat in the room. And then when you get the seat in the room, and you are trusted, you're now able to influence the content. My bosses have no idea what I kept off the air. Right? I had a job I needed to deliver ratings. I was in a position to make choices. And that's what I hope Christians also consider is if you're on a crew, you're always going to be building something that someone else decided on.

The real decisions in this industry happen in offices. And we need more fellow believers inside the offices where the decisions are made. That's where the content is managed, right? That's what distributes and monetizes and greenlights and finances the content that happens in offices. So it is part of the equation. So can I lean in on Breaking Bad a little bit? Because there could be two angles to this. It could be here's a show that's being produced and we want excellence on that show internally.

But I also think when I look at Breaking Bad, I mean this is the conversation my son and I had, I'm like you start start with this character, Walter White, and you give sin a foothold. And that show, I mean, I think it's six seasons, methodically and brilliantly shows how one step leads to another, and sin, when it is full grown, leads forth to death. Death of his reputation, death of his friends,

death of innocence. I think, as a whole, there's certain biblical ideas underneath that. Now, I don't know the director, the producer, I think I looked up that he was kind of agnostic atheist behind it, but I still think the show had ideas. Now, there's some gritty things in it.

My wife was like, I can't watch it. I'm like, fine, you don't need to watch it. But you look at that show in both ways, and even The Walking Dead, I mean, there's some gritty scenes there, like, what makes us human? Is this a Darwinian world? Are there things worth living and dying for? Like, do you look at that show internally with excellence, or is there a sense that these are putting ideas out there that I want the culture to wrestle with, that intersect with Christian ideas, even though they're

not clearly Christian TV shows. As network executives on these shows, we are the caretakers of other creators' shows. So in the case of Breaking Bad, this was Vince Gilligan's creation in this world as exhibited not only through brilliant writing but the talent behind the screen, let alone on screen. It's amazing. It is incredible, but it is a show about a very core aspect of human nature, right? Consequence.

Yep. Mad Men, also a show of consequence. Right? Breaking Bad, Mad Men as a combo, we didn't approach those as saying, okay, how are we going to integrate? Let's sneak in biblical principles. We're the caretakers of two amazing show creators in their worlds. But I refer to it as how we discern, how we take in that information and interpret it. I had amazing conversations with my pastor in New York, who is a super fan of Breaking Bad, and we would kind of hash through all of this. Same with Walking Dead. Yeah. Right. Walking Dead became kind of a, what would I do in that circumstance?

Totally. In a post-apocalyptic world, most people, if you haven't seen Walking Dead, don't realize that the Walking Dead by terminology doesn't define the zombies. The word Walking Dead refers to the living at that moment in time. So how does faith intersect when the world has collapsed? I did not know that. That's actually profound and shifts things. I love that. Yeah, but don't worry, it's not a spoiler. No, I know it doesn't. But it was part of the heart. And when you think about what makes a great story,

for example, it is unique characters in unique circumstances. And how they travel that path, and you as a viewer travel that path along with them, all the way to resolution. The power that Jesus has demonstrated through parabolic storytelling, we have the ability through these screens and even through this microphone to continue that, to understand the audience, to understand how they need to hear messages or stories of hope and truth to bring light

into darkness, right? We do it on the screen, we do it off the screen, and I want for our students, as I wanted through my life, to do it both places. And I've had, I mean I mentioned my youngest son is an actor. My oldest son graduated from the film school here. He's been producing commercials for some time. And we've had a lot of conversations about content. And they sort of range from, I have an obligation to portray reality as it actually is.

And if that involves language and sexuality and violence, I'm not doing it gratuitously, but I'm portraying it like it really is. So someone like Anthony Hopkins in Silence of the Lambs is being portrayed accurately in some really gritty scenes there, too. And on the other hand, you know, I've had people say, hey, it's just acting. This is not who you are. You're portraying. That's why I've had people say to me, that's why they call it acting. Because it's not a statement about who you are. But how do you navigate between those two views of content creation?

Again, at the risk of restating, even those listening now, we're all going to have different points of view and different answers and be very defined in our answers by saying, you should never do this, or it's okay to do that. And both may be totally right and aligned with God. Yeah, without being a relativist. Right. Those of us Christians in this business, again, thousands, okay? We talk with our groups, our support groups, to navigate through these. I am asked to do this. Had a conversation with someone of very high level in the production department at one of the major studios.

And I had lunch one day and he says, I've been asked to make such and such a movie, okay. It was an R-rated, he said it was not something that he was comfortable making, but as senior leadership, he was asked to do that. We talked about how do you navigate that moment. So it's not just actors and writers, it's production executives who are trying as hard as we can to live out our faith true and honest. And he said sometimes you need to make things that aren't consistent with your faith consistent with your faith because when you do that you keep your job and it allows you access to others and he lists a name, name after name, of very well-known people you wouldn't all know who he says, I get to be an example for Christ

to them. I want them to see Christ in me. And if I have to do this because it's my job, and if I just say no, you're out. Because there's a thousand other people who want your job. So, do you say the default position would be to keep your place at the table. Sometimes it's keep your place at the table. I've also known moments where people have said, this is a line I'm not willing to cross, and I also respect them. I respect both because I've been there, right? I know what it's like to navigate, and I have no right to look at them and say, well you didn't make the decision I would make, therefore you were wrong.

Because I know their hearts, right? I know personally know them and this is what we all have to navigate through. Pray for them, pray for discernment that we may make great decisions. I'll use another example and this comes through one of our faculty members who's here. A sitcom writer in the room on a well-known sitcom and he tells a story about how he, if there was a joke that came across in a script that he felt was not appropriate or that he wasn't comfortable, sit there there and go, okay, what do I do? If I stand up and I say, I'm

offended, I refuse to let this script go forward. What do you think happens? Instead, he said, you approach it from the standpoint, as this executive at the studio did on this other example, you approach it knowing the voice that you have in the room. And he said, what is the best way to get an inappropriate joke out of a script? Replace it with a funnier joke. And he said, I would pray. That's brilliant. Jokes away. To the extent that the individual running the show came to him and said,

how is it that every time a joke like this, right, a religious joke or whatever, never appears in the final version? Right? Are you praying them away or something? Yeah. But He's in the room. He can help influence. That's what Christians are doing. We are in the room. We're help influencing. It may not be exact. It may not be perfect with what others feel it should be, but we are there, our voice in the highest levels of this industry, really working hard to make an impact for Christ because it's worth it. Hey, Tom, let me, as we wrap up, last night at dinner, my parents were there and my daughter was there and she was, they were watching the movie in English class and reading the

book Silence by Martin Scorsese. And it kind of, it leaves you with a certain tension. Like it's one thing to be a martyr for your faith, this story tells I think 1600s in Japan how they were treating Christians. But it's another thing when they say, Tom, if you don't renounce Jesus, I'm going to kill your family and I'm going to kill other Christians. And it left this sense of tension like almost haunting with what do we do? And that's what good TV and media does is it doesn't always answer exactly, but it asks the right questions. And like you said, doesn't tell you, it shows you. In some ways, I think we've done this

in this conversation. Some people want a line exactly, what do I direct, exactly what do I watch? And you're like, let's go back to the heart. Let's go to biblical principles. We're going to have to live in a certain tension, kind of of grace and truth, and sometimes we might err one way or the other, but let's try to have grace for people who are navigating this differently. That's my big takeaway. I love it, I think that's so well done.

Let me end with this, give a commercial for those who are watching, either send their kids or their grandkids to Biola to study film. What could they expect to experience studying film here? Thank you for the opportunity to talk about this. I came to Biola because of what I learned through those 30 years. And what I learned through that time is this is not an industry that's just about skills, right?

It's an industry where your character matters. I would have hundreds of interns in and out of my office in Manhattan, right? Loved it. I would learn from them. I would learn what the biggest film schools are doing right, what they're not doing right, where the opportunity is. And I thought a lot about what others, a whole lot smarter than me in skills and in faith, taught me through this period. And that is, your faith is your strength, not your weakness. Never let anyone deconstruct it, never let anyone put that aside to say this doesn't matter, it matters more than you can ever imagine. When this industry calls out saying we are not seeing enough quality in people, my ears perk up and I go, I know where quality comes from.

So coming to Biola, listen, there are hundreds of film schools. If you just want to learn how to write a script, how to direct, how to edit, right, how to produce, there's lots of places you can go. I don't want to just be like in regular film school, because guess what, that's not enough. That is one half, that's a head training. In the industry, even as it's still trying to understand Christianity, in their way they are saying, we want you to be smart at what you do. We also want you to be great at who you are. We want to work with people who are likable. And being likable isn't about doing what others do. It's about being who others need. And that's all about reliability. It's all about love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness,

faithfulness, self-control. So the school that we have built is one that focuses not only on training the skills that the industry demands, but the character that the industry is seeking. Why would you be a school to teach only half? Then we're not sending students out into the world with the qualities that the industry is actually looking for. So that's why we embrace it.

I remember speaking to someone from the press a year or two ago, and I gave this very same notion. After they announced that we were one of the top film schools, what is it that makes you distinctive? And I talked about crafting character and she pauses on the phone, the reporter, you never know what a dramatic pause will bring, and she comes back and she says, wait, you teach the skills and character? I said, yes, we prioritize it. Pause. And she said, that is amazing. Love it.

This is Hollywood. That is amazing. That is what we are about, is bringing in these students, professionally train them for what the industry expects, but build them up, build their faith up. Don't deconstruct, reconstruct what their faith is, so that they choose it every day to say this applies to my life in the media and now I want to use the

power that comes with being in the media to bring hope to the world, not more chaos. So Tom, if they want to find out more about the Snyder School, where should they go? Call me. I'd love to talk to you. Happy to. No, just go to the Biola website, click through to the Snyder School of Cinema and Media Arts. You can see we have a new facility coming. We have over $4 million in growing every year of equipment that students get access to day one.

They can learn all about that. But one of the things that I love doing, I walk with students one-on-one. We have over 446 students now in the program. And I will walk with everyone if they're open to it. But I have about 50 so far. So whether it's a current student, whether it's someone who's interested, call. I love, this is what I'm called to do. Give me the joy of allowing me to talk with you about the heart of the program,

the why behind what we do. Tom, I'm so delighted that we've had a chance to talk to you, and I think there's, I don't know, Sean, I think you would agree. I think this merits at least another conversation. At least. Because we didn't get through half of what we wanted to talk about

today. So we will definitely have you back. This has been so rich and so helpful. And I think for our listeners out there who may have kids that are considering studying cinema or film or media arts or just some listeners who are considering this, this is the place you want to be, because I think that you guys are prioritizing all the right things. Well, thank you. And again, I'm honored to sit with both of you and that you'd allow me to share what 30 years of faith training

has taught me, but I truly feel that those 30 years was just my training. I feel like my career has now begun later in life here at Biola to take all that training and invested into them. They are far more worth the time than just chasing after Nielsen ratings for a career. I love investing in these students. Well, Tom, this has been such a rich time. I trust that our viewers and listeners have enjoyed this, and we will look forward to seeing you next time.