The Sean McDowell Show - Can a Christian Who Commits Suicide Go to Heaven

Episode Date: December 6, 2024

What does the Bible say about suicide? Is suicide the unforgivable sin? In this conversation, Sean talks with Jon Noyes (from Stand to Reason) about these questions and more. They discuss why suicide has become such a big issue today and how Christians can practically respond to those who are hurting. READ: A Rebel's Manifesto, by Sean McDowell (https://amzn.to/3QYgpml) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for $100 off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: @sean_mcdowell Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/

Can a person who commits suicide go to heaven? Is suicide the unforgivable sin? How serious is the suicide epidemic today? These are a few of the questions we're going to explore today with my friend and my guest, John Noyes, a speaker and writer for Stand to Reason. I wrote a chapter on suicide in my recent book, A Rebel's Manifesto, since it's such a sensitive topic. John was the first person I reached out to for his guidance, for his thought, and he graciously gave me a lot of research and even edited the chapter. John, we're going to jump into this, but I know there's a chance somebody just clicked on this video who's maybe having suicidal thoughts right now. This summer,

I was doing a Q&A at a church and it was on issues of sexuality. And a question came through and said, I'm thinking about taking my life. What would you say to me? And I responded on the spot. So by the chance that that person is watching watching before we get into some of the details what would you say yeah you know the the first thing i try to emphasize because this happens a lot uh to me when i give that when i give my talk on suicide to students uh every single time every time somebody more than just one multiple people come up and express the same thing that this student was expressing to you I emphasize that they're not alone that's a lie that so many of us are are gonna believe that that somehow we're alone and nobody can understand where we're at so we're kind of isolated

and then we isolate ourselves and and that's just not true there's a lot of people around if you're watching right now and not true. There's a lot of people around. If you're watching right now and this is you, there are a lot of people in your life who not only love you and want to help you, but there are a lot of people in your life, I guarantee it, that know what you're going through and they want to help you. So you just got to talk to somebody. And it's the most difficult thing to ask of you. It's the most difficult thing I know it is, but it's not complicated. You just have to talk to somebody that you trust, whether it be a friend, a parent, a teacher, a counselor, a pastor, somebody you need to talk to them. And the other thing I'd like to stress is that the moment that you find yourself in right now,

this moment of despair, maybe it's unbearable. That is not definitive of your entire story, your entire life. Paul, in Corinthians, he says that these are but momentary light afflictions producing in us eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison. The first part of that scripture, notice he's saying two things here, Sean. The first is that these things are momentary. These are about momentary light afflictions, that the challenges that we're facing, even if they seem insurmountable, they're momentary. This too shall pass. Now that's not helpful when you find yourself in a moment of despair. I know that. I would never sit down with you and say, this too shall pass.

I hate when people say that to me. But the point is still true, especially on a heavenly timeline. This will pass. And not only that, but the things that you're going through, even if they're horrific, I believe that our sovereign God uses them

in some way, some divine way. And he's preparing you ultimately for glory and ultimately for heaven. So there's hope even in your despair. If I'm talking to somebody that's really wrestling with this at the moment, I'm going to try to point them not just through their hope, I mean, not just through their despair, but show that their despair actually leads to hope. And that's a message throughout the entire Bible, in my opinion. So that's what I would say. You're not alone. You need to talk to somebody. This will pass. I promise you. I've seen it. I've seen it so many times. John, we're going to get into some of the biblical,

the theological questions, the cultural questions, but I hope everybody watching just notices the way in which you answered this. modeled tenderness you modeled understanding but also that truth and ideas we believe about ourselves what we believe about hope what we believe about purpose way into this decision and a lot of this topic rests on defeating the lies that ultimately you and I would agree in so many cases can be satanic at their root and replacing them with hope and with truth. Now, before we get into the questions, I know some people clicked on this going, okay, is suicide the unforgivable sin?

I promise you we will get there. On this channel, I like to slow down and let issues breathe so we can think about them carefully. Give us a little bit of your background, John. You and I have been friends 10 or 12 years. And I noticed when you started to study this issue and focus and speak on it, of course, I thought, I wonder why John is focusing on this. So tell us the backstory. Yeah. So it's nothing spectacular. I was at a reality student apologetics conference, right? The kind of STR's in-house apologetics conferences in Dallas. And they were scheduled to give a talk on suicide.

The pastor there, John Mark Canton, he normally speaks on suicide and he wasn't able to for whatever reason. And so we're like, whatever, it's just a suicide talk. It's not really apologetics, right? It's not part of the canon. But we noticed that the room that we found, that we found somebody to fill in last minute, the room was overflowing. I mean, overflowing. And so we're like, whoa, there's a huge need here. I was new at STR. I just wanted to participate. So they said, hey, who wants to take on this issue? I said, I do. And I signed up and I just wanted to participate. So they said, hey, who wants to take on this issue? I said, I do.

And I signed up and I just said, I'm going to create a talk. I did a bunch of research. During the course of that research, Sean, it's really interesting. One, when I took the project on, I didn't even really realize my cousin died by suicide. He shot himself 13, 14 years ago. I didn't even think about that, right? So it's in my own life. And then during the time that I was forming the talk, my first roommate, Steven, he hung himself. He was my first roommate as I moved to California from Washington, DC. He hung himself leaving behind

a beautiful wife and a beautiful, I think a four-year-old boy. So this is an issue that kind of touches us all. And as I started doing the research, I realized that. Now, I'm also a pastor. I'm a pastor at heart. So I just love people. And this is an issue that so many people are struggling with. So I dove in. And now it's been actually my most requested topic to speak on, which has

been kind of not what I expected. Well, I wrote a blog titled by the same title as this post, just kind of took the content from the chapter you helped me with and the amount of shares and interaction blew me away. People are hungry for this. I think you're right because everybody's been affected by it. My aunt, we have friends, former students, everybody's seen it and experienced it on different levels. Now, what is, in some ways, everybody gets it, but what is some of the data on the mental health state of America today? I know loneliness and anxiety and depression is skyrocketing,

but in terms of suicide and did the pandemic influence it in any fashion? Yeah, sure. I want to make something clear before I answer that question, if that's okay, Sean. I'm coming at this topic, the way I approach it is not as a Christian apologist, not as a pastor, not as a professional or an expert in really anything, but really I approach it as a human being that's been affected by this issue, and that allows me to move into it with compassion. So when we talk about the statistics and stuff like this,

I want to make sure that they don't just rest as numbers because the numbers are important and scary, but behind every number is a person and a life. It's much like when we talk about the abortion issue. We have to lead, you said it at the onset after my first answer to your first question, we have to lead in this issue with compassion and move towards it with the truth of who we are according to the true story of reality, that we're made in the image of God and unique and special. So as we dive in, I mean, the statistics are frightening, right? Depression is is through the roof it's skyrocketing

there are more people at this moment on antidepressants and and other types of medications than ever in the history of man suicide rates have jumped 30 percent and actually that's going higher now since the pandemic during the pandemic so this looks like really interesting. So the suicide used to affect, so it's a number two cause of death for those aged 10, 10 years old to 34, number two cause of death. And they would say that it was college age students wrestled with this more than most. And it was like 13, 14% before the pandemic. During the height of the pandemic, the CDC did some research and asked college age students, who's contemplating suicide? When I say contemplating suicide, what we mean by that

is they have a plan when, where, and how. A detailed plan of how they would carry out their own death. Okay. The study found that 25, 25.5% of college age students had seriously contemplated suicide during the length of the pandemic. That's one in four. I mean, 110, I think it's 110 people die by suicide every day, four every hour, three every minute. And all of these numbers, it's not mentioning the 25 attempts for every failed, I mean, failed attempts for every successful attempt. It's also not mentioning the more than 1 million emergency room visits every year attributed to suicide. During the pandemic, what's interesting is during a pandemic, we see suicide rates kind of drop. During any world crisis, actually, this is what happens. For a multiple of reasons, suicide rates drop. But now that we're coming out of it, now if you're looking at the data that's coming to us, the most recent data, we're going to see a huge spike in suicides leading out of it because

people feel isolated. They feel alone. They're leaning into, instead of the real physical relationships, they're leaning in the social media. They're leaning into their Facebook, or I don't even know if anybody uses Facebook anymore, but Twitter or Instagram. MySpace. I think that's really growing. Yeah, MySpace is blowing up right now. But yeah, so people are leaning into this,

and they're becoming more and more isolated. And that feeling of isolation only exacerbates the desperation that's going on in people's hearts, minds, and souls. And so yeah, the statistics aren't good. Not good at all. Before we get into some of the biblical and theological questions, a couple more that I think might help us frame this. What are some of the contributing factors for somebody to consider suicide? And my guess is there could be some biological factors, psychological, spiritual, some combination thereof. What are some of the core factors that contribute to somebody being at the point, like you said, that 25% of college age students

who have genuinely thought through taking their own life? Sure. So when you're in the literature, it's really interesting. The majority of the literature is written from a naturalistic perspective, which we'll get to this. So the reasons that are given in the literature are things like financial, relational, substance use and abuse, jealousy, self-pity, pride, shame, sense of loss or guilt, loss of status or loss of power. Bullying, of course, is a huge contributor. But ultimately, it all comes down to when you're looking at the literature, for one of these reasons or many others, it could be a mental health issue. It could be, you mentioned genetics. Sometimes mental health issues are genetic. In my mind, actually, when I started this research, I thought what I was

going to find is the majority of suicides and suicide attempts were due to mental health. And it's actually the opposite. It's actually the opposite, which is really interesting to me. 54% of people who die by suicide have never previously been diagnosed with a mental illness. Now, we got to be clear. One, 54% is statistically insignificant from 50%. So it's about 50-50. And also, just because they haven't been previously diagnosed doesn't mean they didn't suffer from something. But my mind went, it's interesting because I fell into this trap. My mind went to a naturalistic reason. Surely there has to be a chemical imbalance or something that we can explain naturalistically that'll help us move towards the reason why people believe a

lie that they're better off dead than alive, why they lose hope. But that's not what reality tells us. Because when you look at things, and you actually did a good job of mentioning this in your book actually, when we look at this from a purely naturalistic perspective, it doesn't make sense why people are dying. It doesn't make sense. It's because we have a better understanding of how the brain works. We have a better understanding of how the body and the chemistry, the neurons firing, everything work. We have a better way of treating multiple personality disorders, schizophrenia, depression, all of these things than any other time in history. So with these things in mind, with the advances in science

and technology and medicine, we should see suicide rates declining. But that's not what we see. We see that they're skyrocketing. Why is that? Well, it's because it's not just a merely physiological phenomenon. It's deeply spiritual in my mind. There is a deeply spiritual existential issue going on. And that's what's largely unaddressed in the scientific literature because a naturalist doesn't avail themselves to that solution, right? So they start with the presupposition that everything that exists is a merely physical or the result of a merely physical process. And when you're trying to address something like this, they're left with question marks.

And that's the real interesting thing when you read the literature is they pose all these reasons, financial, bullying, loss of status, loss of power, loss of relationships, desperation. But at the ends of every study that I've read, they ultimately land on, we don't really know why people are dying by suicide. Well, I think it's because they've lost hope. And they've lost hope for a number of reasons, which maybe we'll get

into. I hope that answers the question. Yeah, it does. This is such a fascinating point. I want to make sure our viewers don't miss this that if it was purely brain physical related we understand the brain now in history better than ever before we have better treatment better surgery better drugs and yet at the moment that science is exploding so is depression so that suggests that something else is going on immaterial spiritual at its root maybe ideas that people believe and you're not saying there's not a physical component to this but that alone doesn't get to the heart of why we're seeing such an increase uh in suicide today i think that's a really helpful balanced way to put it now you've mentioned naturalismism a few times and you talk about this

in your talk. I think it's really interesting. How do you think the naturalistic worldview potentially contributes to the idea of somebody considering taking their own life? Yeah. So I speak, this is a, I mean, maybe this is just anecdotal, but I speak from experience because I was a naturalist for a long time, up until 15 years ago, I was a naturalist. And I remember, so I remember I was walking home from my, I used to work at a law firm in Washington, DC. I was walking home to my house and my sister called me on my cell phone. I answered it. Hey, Katrina, what's up? And she said, Hey, Ronzo was just found dead. He hung himself in his closet.onzo was a friend a mutual friend

that her and i had in high school and you know what my response was my response literally this is what i said to my sister who was crying because we just lost a friend my response was i guess he couldn't take the heat so he got out of the kitchen those were my exact words i remember like it was in the hair stands on my eyes. And I could cry right now because my worldview, and this is why I share this because my worldview told me that people are merely meat suits in motion. We're just a random quantification of molecules bumping into each other. And there's, there's neither right nor wrong. There's no purpose. There's no meaning. I'm not saying that I didn't think my life was meaningful. So the naturalist that you can derive

meaning and purpose for your life, but your worldview, my worldview at the time couldn't shoulder that burden. So as I tried to live more and more consistently with my naturalism, I would end up saying things like that awful thing I said to my sister on the phone that night about, about Ronzo, who, who was a part of my life and a friend, you know? And so, and, and we relate this to the culture at large and we're trying to talk in before the, before this broadcast. What's really interesting in worldview studies is that they're starting to find Barna in particular, Barna out of Arizona Christian University. Their most recent study on worldview in this country isn't that we're getting more atheists. We're getting more synchronistic with naturalism, meaning what we're doing is we're

combining aspects of naturalism with Christianity or Islam or whatever it is, whatever other worldview you have. But that naturalistic component, right, as the culture becomes more naturalistic and the traditional Judeo-Christian worldview kind of wanes in our culture, what we have to do is instead of having a transcendent hope to rely on, something that can push us through, like I said, these are but momentary light afflictions, something that can push us through the afflictions to that glory that awaits us, it pushes us back into ourselves. So naturalism forces us back into ourselves. We are our own hope. And what ends up happening is we live a life. And I know this from experience, not just from my reading. It's not just in books. It's from my experience is

you have to rely on yourself, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. You fail, you, you, you, you, you, you fall, you got to pull yourself up. You fail again, you fall and you got to pull yourself up. And we see this played out in the culture all around us. I mean, we could list off, you know, two dozen celebrities and designers and actors and DJs and musicians and athletes who have all died by suicide. Because when they get to the top, the thing that they've been working for forever, they realize there's nothing there. There's nothing transcendent. Now they got to start all over again and build another empire, build another thing, write another song. And then so you're relying on ourselves and life gets unbearable and you just want to escape. And that's from naturalism because at its ends, naturalism is solitary. It doesn't give you the hope that we all cry out for. It doesn't give you anything

of ultimate meaning or transcendent purpose that we all need. We cry out for these things. That's a really fair way to approach the implications that worldviews have. And I appreciate you speaking from your own experience you're not saying every naturalist sees the world this way but i think what you are saying is this is a consistent way of seeing the world as a naturalist and in doing so it calls into question objective purpose human value life after death meaning etc And if those things go out the window, some would argue that this leads naturally to a nihilistic worldview. So we can't separate some of these worldview questions from the value of human life and the question of suicide. Although

I can hear some critics saying, well, Christians commit suicide too. I'd say that's exactly right. And that leads us to our next question. Let's start shifting into Scripture and talk about what Scripture says or doesn't say about suicide as we work our way to the question, can someone who commits suicide go to heaven? So let's just start with this one. Are there examples of people committing suicide in the Bible? And what might we learn from these examples? Yeah, absolutely. So there's, man, I don't have my notes in front of me. I think it's seven, six or seven examples throughout all of scripture of people who die by suicide.

King Saul, he ordered his armor bearer to murder him. We consider that a suicide. His armor bearer died by suicide when he saw what would happen. Zimri died by suicide. I mean, there's all these examples in the Old Testament. There's one in the New Testament, though, that everybody knows, and that's Judas. And so Judas is an example of a man who, when he was faced with overwhelming trials and loss, you know, we picture what happened to Judas. And my heart breaks for him, man. Like he betrays his friend, his pastor for money, you know, and he thinks he's believing the lie, right? That he's placing his hope in something tangible, something worldly, something like money, right? And so he accepts this money, trades in his friend, his rabbi, his mentor for this silver. And then when he sees what he's done, he's just so overwhelmed by a sense of guilt

and shame that the only thing that he can see to get him out of the situation is to throw a rope over a limb of a tree, put his neck through a noose and jump. And what breaks my heart about this is, and this is kind of a side point, but I think it's important. If Judas had just gone to Jesus and said, I'm sorry, Jesus, I am so sorry, he would have forgiven him. He would have forgiven him right then and there, but he didn't see that way out. And it's the same thing with everybody. There is a way out. There is a hope. That hope is through Jesus, right? And Jesus, what he accomplished on the cross, but we need to avail ourselves to that Judas didn't. Now, these are some examples

of people who died by suicide in the Old Testament and the New Testament because they were overrun, overburdened by overwhelming sense of guilt, shame, or loss. But there's also examples that a lot of people overlook in scripture of people who were likewise faced with these trials, similar trials at least, overwhelming sense of loss, burden, shame, guilt. And they got right up to the point of despair. They wanted to die, but they didn't. And that's the great testimony of their life is that they said, no, they said that we're going to press on. Solomon, you remember how Solomon started his book, right? His memoir, so to speak, vanity of vanity, all is vanity, right? Life is

meaningless is what he's saying. He goes on to say that life is like chasing the wind, Sean. And what happens when we chase the wind? Do we ever catch it? No, we don't catch it. And that's naturalism. That's naturalism because we're chasing things through money, sex, power, things like this. And when we get them, it's actually the things that we think are going to bring the satisfaction don't. Well, this was Solomon's story. You know, the great king of Israel had everything he possibly wanted. And when the push came to shove, he was in so much despair. That's how he starts his book, Vanity of Vanities.

And he's also, life is just like an endless succession of meaningless tasks, like chasing the wind. But then at the end of the book, he points us back to God. He says, basically, he says, you know, what we do is we lean into God. We follow God's laws. We chase after God with everything we have. And that's when meaning and purpose are restored. He's not the only one.

Elijah. I love Elijah. Elijah, right? We all know Elijah. He's Old Testament prophet up on Mount Carmel in the book. Is it First Kings? Up on the book of Carmel, where he's confronting all the prophets of Baal. All of these people are worshiping Baal. They're up there singing, dancing, cutting themselves, crying out to these false idols. And he comes up. Elijah comes up on the scene. And he ends up praying.

He says, you guys want to know who the true and living God is? He prays to God. And God rains fire down. Like, this is a true story, right? This happened in real space. Right, right. This isn't just some fanciful tale. It's like he rained fire down from

the sky. It's like me going to downtown LA, calling people to repentance, stop worshiping, they don't listen to me, and God rains fire down on all of the idols that people are worshiping down there. And this is unbelievable stuff. Unbelievable stuff. Hugely powerful. The next chapter, after he rains fire down from the sky, Elijah's running from the queen. He's hiding and he finds himself in a cave alone and desperate. And he literally prays to God, God, take my life. Finds himself in a moment of despair, but he presses on through it. And that's actually the great testimony of his life is that he pressed on, God lifted him up, he dusted him off, he fed him, he clothed him,

he restored him. And then he passed the baton, Elijah, to Elijah. And Elijah did amazing things. The New Testament example would be Paul. Paul, I mean, Paul, right? This guy is amazing. I wish I was like Paul, right? I mean, this guy changed the world. I mean, there's no argument. He changed the world. The fearless apostle went on at least three missionary journeys that we know about. He wrote the majority of the New Testament. I mean, he is like a, he is up there, right?

It's like Jesus, Paul. And he even struggles. In Corinthians, he wrestles with it. He says, you don't know about the struggles I experienced in Asia, that we despaired even of our lives. Wow. He faced with overwhelming challenges, him and his team, that he got to the point that all he wanted to do was die. But then we continue to read and he says that, no, but I didn't give into that

despair. I pressed on. And then he's the one who says that we press on toward the upper call of Christ Jesus, right, he's the one that says that these are momentary light afflictions, he's the one that says that the trials produce perseverance and perseverance, proven character, and proven character, a hope, and a hope that does not disappoint

so what I love about Paul in particular is he's an example for us about somebody who wrestles like so many of us do. Listen, we live in a fallen and a broken world, Sean. This is something, when I first got saved, I got saved in Hollywood, California, right? I was in the pit. And when God lifts you up out of the darkness and into his marvelous light, everything is amazing. It's like seeing color

for the first time maybe or something like that. And I thought the world was going to be perfect. Well, then I live for about six hours and I'm like, oh man, this world is hard. Sometimes harder than before, because at least as a naturalist, I could just like, I just basically lived for pleasure, you know? So I could drown my fears. I could drown my anxiety. I could seek to drown my depression in these things, in the things of the world. But when God takes those atheist or naturalist lenses off, you see the world as it is. And you're like, this is a fallen and broken place. This is hard.

And this is what Paul is saying. But the hard world, God allows us to live in it for a reason, for a purpose. It's not without not. It's not for not, is I guess what I'm saying, is the struggles that we go through, they're used for a purpose. And that's why I love Paul, because he leads an example by that. This is a guy who had a radical transformation. He must have felt the same thing I felt. Like when he saw Jesus, like face to face, he was blinded. You know what I mean? Like he heard him audibly and spent time with him. You know, a, a, a, a, a risen Jesus. He must've thought the world was going to be perfect. I would have.

And he probably very quickly learns, oh man, dude, this life is so hard. Right. But the, but then he, he, he, it's Paul who says that, that the, that, that we got to live circumspectly. We got to live cautiously. We got to live with our eyes wide open because what he says is the days are particularly evil, but we don't want to let those evil days overrun the fact that we serve a living God and there's a hope beyond these evil days. They're getting better is I guess what I'm saying. That's like a super long answer to your question. No, that's a a great answer john and i i want to hit on one of the earlier things you said about jesus forgiving judas i yeah i preached at my home church last year and i was in matthew 26 and i contrasted peter who didn't who uh you know says he doesn't know jesus and by the way, Jesus said, if you deny me before men, I will deny you before the

Father. That seems as grave or pretty close to being as grave as betraying Jesus. And yet Peter's example, somebody who was restored and then writes this whole book about suffering well and honoring the Lord. And Judas goes the other direction. So in some ways, the Bible saying we all have rejected Jesus. We've all denied him. It's natural. You're going to experience this, this hurt and this pain. You've got an option to make. So I love that. But the other thing you said is it really is amazing how many people in the Bible, either there's examples of suicide, like you said, in particular, King Saul and Judas, but even God's chosen prophets like Elijah and others that you mentioned, Paul, and another one I know you've talked about elsewhere is Jonah was so angry at God in Jonah 4.8. He was like ready to take his own life. So people can get to the point, even people God has used out of despair, out of

depression, out of anger, that they have these feelings. So if anybody watching this has had those feelings, we're back to the very first point that you made on this, that you're not alone. You're not crazy. Welcome to our broken, hurting world. Now, I do have a couple other theological questions for you, but would you consider Samson a suicide? Yes. This is a tough one. I would say yes. I could understand why not, right?

So Samson, they cut his hair, and he went blind. His eyes were out, and he pushed the top of the the pillars of the temple down and and he so it was an act that brought about his own death um so i would say yes it was a suicide uh he knew what was going to happen i think and he did it anyway but he did it unlike what we picture as suicide uh he did it with a different purpose, not just to kill himself. But yeah, I think it was. I guess we have to define what's meant by... My talk is just funny.

You know, if we define suicide as taking your own life, he clearly did. If we mean unjustly taking your own life, you could make the case that Samson was sacrificing his life for a greater good in a Christ-type fashion.

If that's what we mean, then I'm not sure I would define it as an immoral suicide in that sense, although I'm open to be persuaded otherwise. Do you agree with that or disagree? I completely agree with that. I think on the technical side of it, it was a suicide. But I agree. It serves as a type. It points us to Jesus. It was purposeful.

And because of that, I don't think it was sinful. So this summer I was speaking at a Christian camp and was asked to address three of the toughest, thorniest issues. And one of them was, can a Christian who commits suicide go to heaven? And I gave my theological answer we're going to get to in a moment. But one of the things I feared is if I'm going to say, oh, this is not the unforgivable sin, and of course someone who commits suicide could go to heaven, that that potentially might give somebody license who's thinking about it and go, oh, here's one more barrier removed.

I'm going to take my life. That went through my mind. So in my response, I showed grace, I showed humility, but I tried to help the students realize suicide is really serious. It's the unjust taking of an innocent life. And I compared it and contrasted it with murder, which is the same way of taking an unjust life. And what's ironic, the greatest act of love, Jesus says, is to lay down your life. So the opposite is to unjustly take a life. I had two girls come up to me and they were not happy afterwards with my example and they they it's not so much logical they just said we are struggling with this and to be told that what we've wrestled with is akin to murder is like piling on us what do you think is that a point

that you would make is it pilot on? Give me your thoughts on that dynamic. This, Sean, this is the hardest. For me, this is the hardest aspect of this entire topic, because we have the truth. And I'm just going to state it clearly. Not my truth, not your truth. It's not true for you, but not... It's true. This is the true story of reality. According to the Bible, the manner in which somebody dies has no determination on where they spend eternity. None. If an atheist dies by suicide, they go to hell, not because of their suicide, but because of their lack of trust in Jesus. The same is true for a Christian on the opposite. A Christian who dies by suicide goes to heaven because they're a Christian.

The fundamental component of being a Christian is that you place your hope, your faith in Jesus. You confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that he's been raised from the dead, right? But, and this is where it gets difficult. That's the truth. That's the truth. This is where it gets difficult though, because you're talking sometimes almost every time, every time I'm confident saying every time I've given this talk, I am talking to somebody, if not multiple people in the audience who are currently at that moment wrestling with thoughts of suicide, serious thoughts of suicide. But it doesn't, number one, it doesn't change the truth. So this is where you need to say the truth, but then offer an explanation of if this is where

you're at, this is not an excuse to pursue suicide. Suicide is a grievous sin. It's self-murder, like you said. It's self-murder. It grieves God. It's never pleasing to God. And part of being a Christian is we never run towards our sin. We run away from it. We want to live more like Jesus, not less like Jesus. And Paul actually addresses this, right? So Romans 5 and 6, right? So Romans 5, he's preaching this like amazing grace that we have through Christ, right? That we can't, nothing can separate you from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus is what he goes on to say. Nothing. Neither heights nor depths, angels, demons, right? But just because we've been lavished with such an amazing grace doesn't mean that we can lean into sin, not ever. And that's what, that's what Paul says to the Romans because the Romans come to him and say,

hey, we've experienced this amazing grace. Should we go on sinning so that grace may abound all the more? And Paul's response, may it never be. May it never be. No, that's not what we do. We don't do that. We don't lean into our sin. God, and you mentioned you did a really good job, I think, in your book, actually, on this issue. Because I like the way that you handled this question. You did it in the dialogue format, like here's a sample dialogue. And now, of course, sample dialogues are obviously much more simple than real life dialogues. Of course, of course. But it proves the point.

And the way that I do it in my talk is similar. I give an example. I say, if I'm a Christian, I know who Jesus is. I have a fantastic relationship with God. And if I go outside the bounds of my marriage, if I cheat on my wife, am I still saved? Yes. Because I'm not saved by my works or my and I'm not. That means I don't lose my salvation by my works. Right? Well, the same is true. Even if I die in the middle of having an affair,

I'm still saved. Repentance is a gift that's given to us by God, not a work that we must do to be saved by God, right? It's like faith. Faith is a gift. So too is repentance. I honestly don't know what it looks like for a non-Christian to repent. I think you have to be a Christian before you can repent. Because before I was a Christian, my sin was my life. It's what I enjoyed. It's what I did. It's what I chased. There was nothing wrong with it. There was no such thing as sin in my worldview. So you have to put on that Christian identity before you can even approach the idea of repentance. And once you have that Christian identity, we need to see ourselves firmly in the grasp of God, right? That nothing can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus.

But we want to make sure that we don't abuse the grace of God. And we never chase sin using God's grace as an excuse. Does that make sense? It does make sense. Yeah. And this is really helpful. We're unpacking some of the main questions here. So one of the big questions people will say, and you kind of addressed this, was if somebody commits suicide, clearly it's a final act and there's no time to repent. Even if you say beforehand, hey, forgive me for what I'm about to do, it still happened before.

And you could still wonder if somebody understands the forgiveness they're asking for before they do it. That would at least be a fair question to ask. Your point is, whether it's suicide or an affair or any other sin, we have been saved and our sins have been forgiven so i'm not living in this constant give and take with god that if i tell a lie lose my salvation until i ask for repentance have a lustful thought lose your salvation until you ask for repentance like that would be such a paralyzing way to live that doesn't reflect the reality when Jesus says, my burden is light. So that's the heart of what you're saying. Just because somebody can't repent, if that person has

been saved, then their salvation is not contingent upon that repentance. But maybe it'd be more that the nature of the relationship with God, if there's ongoing sin, doesn't mean you're not saved, but that relationship itself is broken in a certain fashion. Is that a fair way you would put it? Yeah, I think so. I think you said it really well, right? Our salvation, where we spend eternity, isn't dependent on our repentance, right? If we were required to repent of every single sin, sin of omission, commission, like what, I mean, I am a wretch, Sean. Like if you said, John, confess every sin right now, I could confess a bunch, but I'm going to miss some. Because I do things without even really knowing.

Well, I said that, you know, said that i i accidentally blasphemed i mean i serious sins right that i don't even know i do i mean i preach i preach at churches i mean i'm wondering if i if i ever stand out like i'm thinking back sometimes i know i say something wrong and i can correct it but what about the times when i know when i say something wrong and I don't know it? Right? I'm presenting God wrongly. That's sinful. James 3 says that's serious for those who teach. Yeah, James 3 does. So if I have to repent of every instance of my sin, man, I'm hosed.

Like, I'm hosed. But that's not it because our repentance isn't what brings salvation. Our hope for future glory, heaven, is found in an unwavering relationship with the Redeemer God and the Son of Heaven. And that's it. End of story. But it is important in this instance to stress that that doesn't excuse

us. That doesn't mean that we lean into sin. May it never be. That's the burden that nearly breaks my back if I'm being honest with you, be. That's the burden that nearly breaks my back, if I'm being honest with you, Sean. That's the toughest, the most difficult part of this whole conversation. And I say this explicitly. I will go out in front of the podium. I'll go down in the audience. I'll say, guys, everybody look at me. You need to listen to me. And if you're watching this, you need to listen, like clearly, because this is

so important. Just because we're covered by grace and nothing can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord, nothing, that doesn't excuse us. That doesn't mean we can run into our sin and please don't do that. Just please don't do that. You are too valuable. You are made in the image of God. You're of infinite value and worth. Sean, I'm not saying this to make people feel good. I'm not that kind of guy. These aren't empty platitudes. I say this stuff because it's true. It's true of who we are. And we need to understand that. So when we're wrestling deeply in these issues, some of the things that I hear from kids, from students, from adults, they're horrific.

Some of the things that people that are going to watch this video are going through are horrific. They're horrific. And I'm so sorry. And my heart breaks for them. But it doesn't mean that, and we're saved, but it doesn't mean that we chase after our sin ever. Because I can't have that responsibility, I can't shoulder that burden that somehow my words would be misconstrued to cause somebody to go home and die by suicide. I can't handle that, Sean. So I need to make it explicit. This is not what I'm saying.

The truth is, the truth is the truth. You're saved by grace and grace alone, right? But you can't, you can't press into that grace through your sin. You press into that by chasing Jesus, persevering and, and then pressing on is how we, how we do it as a community, hopefully. That's a great balance to bring. We're not going to lose the gravity of sin, whatever sin that may be, but also not err on thinking our salvation rests in our works and our efforts. I mean, Titus 3.5, Paul talks about us being saved in the past tense, not because of our works of righteousness, because of his mercy. Now, as you said in Romans 6, that shouldn't drive us to go,

oh, I'm saved, live however I want to. That should drive us to go the opposite direction. So if somebody truly has been saved, then I don't see why taking their own life would necessarily disqualify that person from going to heaven. Now, I know instantly people are going to ask a question like, well, how could a genuine Christian who is a new creation and, you know, the old is gone, the new has come, succumb to such a lie? And the heart of Satan's lies is he is a liar and he is a murderer. That's what Satan does. How could somebody filled with the Holy Spirit succumb to such a great lie from Satan? Yeah, the answer is I have nothing profound here, but the world is hard.

It's a hard world. I mean, I have a really great life. I have very few complaints, Sean. Very few complaints. I have an amazing wife. I have awesome kids. I have four daughters, 12, 10, 9, and 5. I know that the world is hard. There's somebody always crying in my house,

always. And I mean, half the time it's me like in the fetal position in the corner, wondering what in the world is going on. But the world is hard. And this is a reality that we, I mean, we see this in scripture. And this is why I think it's so important, the conversation that we just had about examples for us in scripture. Here's Paul. This is Paul expressing the desire to die because of the trials that were so overwhelming that he's faced. So why would we place a burden?

Why would we, why would we say that? Why would we look at a brother and sister in Christ and place a standard on them that we wouldn't place on Paul? Because the life is hard and people struggle. This is the reality of the scriptures everywhere. You just said it. Satan came to lie, cheat, and destroy, and he will lie to you. And he lies to us in different ways. He might lie to you in a way that's different than me, but he's going to lie to us about our identity. He's going to lie to us about our

self-worth. He's going to lie to us about people who love us. But it's important to keep in mind Jesus's words too, right? Jesus says that Satan came to lie, kill, and destroy, but I came to give you life and give it abundantly. So what we need to remember to do instead of when we have somebody that's leaning into suicide, or when we have somebody who actually dies by suicide and claims to be a Christian and is a Christian, instead of questioning their salvation, maybe we should respond as I think Jesus would respond. We would move into the situation with compassion and love for the individual, not by anything that they've done, but just because they've been made in the image of God. And this act, the act of suicide,

and this is a larger issue that we haven't even touched on, but the act of suicide doesn't just affect the victim of suicide. That's right. I mean, it destroys communities. There was a video on Netflix, like a show. The 13th, a few years ago, that one. 13 Reasons Why. 13, yeah.

And I don't necessarily recommend that your viewers go watch it, but I remember there was a huge pushback from the Christian community on this. And I watched the first two seasons. The third season got really kind of weird. So it was just got soap opery. So I stopped watching it.

But the first season I thought was really great. Not in the glorification of suicide, which i think it did in some semblances glorified suicide but it showed the the the the havoc that was wreaked on uh on this community i mean this one girl died by suicide and you had her parents get divorced you had a school that was torn apart you had uh friends turning on other friends. Because it's one girl's action to take her own life. They're more than one victim of suicide. It tears people apart. So instead of saying, although that person probably wasn't saved, one, I'm going to leave the salvation up to God. I don't know the person's heart necessarily.

But if they're a confessing Christian, and I've had Mike Adams, Mike Adams, Sean, Mike Adams is one of our friends, right? That's right. There's no doubt in my mind that I'm going to see him in glory. None. Zero. And I'm heartbroken because he died by suicide. Now, my response to his death isn't with anger or saying that he's not a Christian because of it. My response is to call his fiance. My response is to reach out to Summit Ministries where he's an integral part, saying, I love you. And then how can I help?

You know, and how can we walk together through this tragedy? It's not to doubt somebody's salvation, because the scriptures don't avail themselves to that. God is the author and refiner of salvation. He's the one that completes every good work, right? Not me. So I'm going to trust God with that. And when I'm wrestling with this, I going to wrestle uh you know in a way that looks i think like jesus with compassion and love not dismissing sin mike adams he he died by suicide he committed an awful sin an awful sin you know but doesn't mean he's not saved because i commit awful sins all the time um anyways that's a really long-winded answer again i'm sorry for these long-winded answers sean no man you're you've thought about this a lot you're bringing a lot of wisdom and encouragement

here and again i appreciate the balance of just compassion and and heartfelt but uh going back to what scripture says i think is really important you know when you talk about can a christian lose hope it's pretty clear in the scriptures that god is the most powerful but satan is a very powerful being look at the end of ephesians we wrestle not with flesh and blood but with principalities put on your belt and your sword and your shield why do we need armor because we're in a spiritual battle about ideas so while while Christians cannot and will not lose the war, we can and do lose some battles. So I think by saying a Christian couldn't lose hope is to downplay just number one, how broken our world is, where Jesus said it's out of the human

heart. Paul writes in Romans chapter three, and not to take seriously the spiritual battle that we're in in the present. Two last questions for you. I know this comes up all the time. Is suicide the unforgivable sin? And Jesus talks about this in Mark three, of course, it's called blasphemy in the Holy Spirit as well. What's your sense of that passage no okay the the blasphemy of the holy spirit this i get this question often when i give the the presentation with this verse quoted i and my responses is i'm gonna so i'm a disciple of cokel so i'm gonna colombobo the questioner. I'm going to say, well, what do you mean by blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? Because it seems pretty clear to me that blaspheming the Holy Spirit doesn't mean doing violence to an image bearer, which suicide does, right? Murder does violence. That's why it's

wrong. It does violence to the image of God, ultimately. But it means rejecting the work of the Holy Spirit, and however that works, right? I don't have all this worked out, man. I'm still a work in progress theologically. But that's not what the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not. Suicide or doing violence to the Holy Spirit. So it seems pretty clear to me through scripture, the unforgivable sin is the rejection of the grace of God that's offered through Christ on a cross at Calvary. And that's it. The rejection of that work, that finished work that's offered to you is the unforgivable sin. And then all other sins, right? It's the psalmist who said, if you, O Lord, were to mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand? But there is forgiveness in you,

is what the psalmist says, right? As far as the East is from the West, so far are our transgressions removed from us, is what the psalmist says. So the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit has to do with a total and utter rejection of Christ, I think. Correct me if I'm wrong, but not suicide. I think there's no reason in that passage to think that suicide is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. It's not even hinted at in Mark chapter 3. Well, my goodness. One of the interesting things about that passage, though, is Jesus is in the flesh debating with the religious leaders, and they attribute the work of Jesus to the work of Satan. And of course, Jesus comes up with a great analogy to show why this is insane, that he'd be working for and against himself. But in some ways, if we just narrow it down to the context, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit could be when Jesus is in the flesh attributing his works to Satan. That in

the immediate context is what it could be saying. But of course, if we expand that in the way that you're saying, obviously Jesus is not in the flesh in the way that he was, so nobody has to worry about committing that sin. But then scripture goes on and on and talks about Jesus offers forgiveness to everybody. But the only sin that we're not forgiven for is the rejection of that free offer of grace. That's where I think you're absolutely right. So I've heard people think having an abortion is the unforgivable sin, committing suicide is the unforgivable sin. I want to free people from thinking that there's any sin God won't forgive them for. And by the way, I think

one of the reasons we do get hung up on suicide is because I'm not saying all sins are equal. I don't think scripture teaches that. For example, Jesus says in John 19, he says, he who turned me over to you committed the greater sin. Right? So not all sins are equal, but the blood of Jesus equally covers any and all sins if we will cry out and ask for forgiveness in terms of our initial salvation. And also true there, Sean, is the opposite, right?

Not all sins are equal in their grotesqueness is the way that I say it. Not all sins are equal before God, but the penalty for sins apart from the grace of God is the same. I say it. Not all sins are equal before God, but the penalty for sins, apart from the grace of God, is the same. That's right. So the opposite side of the coin of grace is there too. It's important to remember that. You brought up abortion and suicide linked together, and oh man, it's gone like oh what i wanted to say is that the reason why this is so important to be talking about on a human level not just like an intellectual theological philosophical level is because in both of these instances and this is something that's really hitting me uh recently we're dealing with like human lives. Every abortion ends a human life, like a precious unborn human life. And that's what should motivate us to enter the argument,

not to be right or squash somebody's worldview or win an argument or anything like this. But we move into the issue with the compassion of what's actually happening in the act of an abortion. Well, the same is true for suicide. And that's why when we ask the question, can this Christian die by suicide? And sometimes when I'm pressed on that, I feel like the person's heart has lost view of, and I'm not trying to lean into feelings or anything. I'm not a touch and lean in the feelings or anything. I'm not sure I feel like a guy But I feel like what we've done is we've lost view of actually what's happening every successful suicide results in the death of

Somebody who's made in the image of God Hmm and and that should really break our hearts like it should really it should really break our hearts You know every every morning when I, this is my prayer, every morning, every single morning, same thing. I live in chaos. I have 10 seconds when I get up before the house just goes off because I cannot get up without waking kids up. I haven't figured it out yet.

So I swing my legs over the side of the bed. I say, this is literally what I say every morning. Lord God, this is your day that you've made special and you thank you for letting me participate in it. Would you use me, Lord, today as you see fit? It's a privilege to serve you. And God, would you help me see the people around me as you see them?

Every morning, that's what I say. Because I want to see the people in my life as God sees them. Because I think when we put that on, when we see them as special, as unique, as beautiful, apart from anything they do, I think it helps us move towards difficult people in difficult situations, but also it helps us love our community better. It helps us love each other more. It helps us move into these difficult topics with an appropriate, I guess, compassion, you know, and

we don't, I don't want to ever lose sight of, of, I don't want to ever want to lose myself in arguments. And, and I want to make sure that I always have at the forefront that these are actual people. And, and that's why it's important to understand that these people who, when we ask the question, like, how could a Christian lose hope? Well, because some people go through horrible things, like horrible, horrible things. I have had the most horrible things confessed to me when I'm on the road speaking on this. I mean, I can't even say them. Like, they're so bad.

Like, the lives that some people live are just, I mean, I can't imagine it. So until we put on that compassion, I think we need to be very careful how we ask some of these questions. I hope that makes sense. John, that's one of the things I love about you. You're committed to scripture, you're committed to truth, you've done your research in preparing this talk, but you've just got a big heart for people and you represent our Lord and stand to reason well. So I can't think of a better note to wrap up on that, but maybe tell our viewers how they can track with you, Twitter, your blog, how can they follow what you're doing? Because I know you post some stuff

on this topic as it comes out. Yeah. So the best way to do that's going to be, I'm super boring, Sean. I don't do much social media. But str.org is where I blog. I would love it if you want to follow what I'm doing, you can go up and it's totally free. Go to str.org training and click my name and you can receive my monthly newsletter for free. We'll send it to you and you can track with what I'm doing. Of course, and this is one of the things I love about Stand to Reason, specifically the reality conferences that we do is, and you participate in some of these, is our kind of like boots on the ground mentality. We don't sit in the green room and chill with each other. We actually want to be out among the conference goers. Yeah, you do.

And that's one of the things. So I would say if you want to get involved, I would love to see you at one of these reality conferences. There's six all over the nation. They start next month in Orange County, and then we travel all over the country. So if you want to come to one, sign up. They're fairly inexpensive.

But make sure you say hi. I just like meeting people. I just really like people. So that's the best way. I'd rather make a personal connection like that. That's awesome. Well, I'm not at Reality this year, but next year I will be at all six, Lord willing. They are some of the best, if not the best, student apologetic conferences that are out there.

Reality conferences, parents, teachers, bring your students. I've taken my kids at times, and it's just absolutely a plus. John, really appreciate you. For the rest of you watching, make sure you hit subscribe. We've got some interviews coming up. For example, have a leading Catholic thinker, Christopher West, who's written on the theology of the body, and Scott Ray, a Protestant thinker,

written a book, Defending the Soul, to come together and talk about where we have common ground and differences on sexuality and things like birth control have some more videos coming up on archaeology i have some conversations coming up have an atheist who's going to interview me and put me on the hot spot going to be a lot of fun make sure you hit subscribe if you thought about studying apologetics in depth we would love to have you at biola we have the top rated apologetics program as you know john it's fully a distance program and there's information below you just have to have an undergrad degree and we would love to partner with you to equip you and train you to become an ambassador effectively for the faith or if you're not ready for masters we have a certificate program

that we will guide you through learning apologetics john you're a rock star thanks for your time thanks so much for coming on and we'll we'll do it again thanks sean i appreciate it