The Sean McDowell Show - Can Christians Become Divine? A Surprising Doctrine Returns (w/ Paul Copan)

Episode Date: February 14, 2025

The doctrine of deification or theosis has been gaining interest among scholars for some time. Dr. Paul Copan is the editor of a new book that makes the case for a Protestant view of deification. This doctrine may sound abstract (or heretical), but when properly understood, it has deep historical roots in the Christian faith and deep transformative power in the lives of believers. CHECK OUT: Paul's work at The Worldview Bulletin (https://worldviewbulletin.substack.com/) READ: Transformed into the Same Image (https://www.ivpress.com/transformed-into-the-same-image) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: @sean_mcdowell Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.orgv

Can Christians become like God? Why would a leading Christian philosopher co-edit a book on the doctrine of what's called deification? Is it an example of Mormon or pantheistic ideas seeping into the church? Our guest today is Dr. Paul Copan. Back on the channel, he is an editor of a new volume called Transform into the Same Image. Paul, thanks for coming on. Glad to be with you. It's always a treat, Sean.

So one of the things I like to do on this channel is take kind of trends in academia, trends in culture, and bring it to people's attention that they might not be aware of. And this was, when your book came out, I wasn't really aware that there's this trend of people talking about and debating and discussing what deification is. And I didn't know it had such deep roots in the Christian church and such practical application for the spiritual life.

So when your name was on this, I thought, I've got to revisit this and make sure I'm not missing something. So before we get into the backstory, maybe just start off with what do we even mean by deification? Well, the doctrine of deification or theosis, sometimes divinization and the like is frequently associated with Eastern Orthodoxy. This is kind of standard language in the Eastern Orthodox tradition. Of course, within Christendom, there are three major branches of Christianity, Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, and Protestantism. And the Eastern Orthodox talk about deification or divinization a lot. The Catholics also have that tradition, though less emphasized. And now

we're starting to see this language coming into Protestant discussion, which is a really wonderful thing. But within Eastern Orthodoxy, we're talking about basically distinguishing between the essence of God, the nature of God, and the energies of God, the life, the dynamic that God gives off, that he shares with us, that we participate in the life of the triune God being united with him through Christ. And Colossians talks about our lives being hidden with Christ in God.

And that through this union with Christ, our lives are transformed into that same image as the book title goes and as 2 Corinthians 3 talks about, that we are being transformed from one degree of glory to another. C.S. Lewis said that transformation was the central point of Christianity. And he uses the terms gods and goddesses to talk about human beings being elevated in their stature as they become conformed to the image of Christ. Or as we'll see, Jonathan Edwards, who used the language of our being like little sons that take after the one ultimate son. So it has that sense of being united to God, but not being lost, as it were, in terms of our identity in God, that there is a distinction, though there is this union. And so we can talk more about that, but that's just the gist of what we're talking about. It's a helpful starting place because for myself and for many others, when you use words

in English words like deification and divination or divinization, what exactly is, say that word again? Yeah, divinization to be divinized to be or deified. So yeah, there is that language. And of course, it can sound a little like people who are in new religious movements and so forth, but we'll try to lay that out and make it clear. Okay. So that's helpful. So tell me, when I see books that you've compiled, the book on the cosmological argument, I think with Bill Craig on the moral argument. I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. Paul Copan, a philosopher. But when I saw this, it gave me pause, like, why is he studying and spending time on the doctrine of deification? So tell us your interest in your backstory, and maybe if it was different studying this than some of the other projects you've done. Yeah, right. Well, let me just give maybe a little preface to this because there's certainly,

I don't want to say, I don't want to maybe leave this point without saying there is certainly a scriptural, a rich scriptural heritage here. For those who are still maybe wondering, I don't know, okay, the Eastern Orthodox had that vocabulary, but I'm still a little suspicious. So, you know, a kind of key text would be 2 Peter 1, 4, which refers to our becoming partakers of the divine nature. And, you know, in Psalm 82, there's this language, you know, I said you are gods. And of course, in John 10, Jesus quotes this and basically says, if you talk about these lesser beings being referred to as God, how much more shall I properly be called the son of God or call myself the son of God? So there is this sense of a, you know, it has the sense of a participation in the divine life of God. We talk about eternal life. We talk about being born again. John, first John three talks about receiving the seed of God, that the one who is born of God doesn't practice sin and so forth.

We talk about Christ who is our life. We talk about being glorified, about being transformed. Paul talks about being in spiritual labor for the Galatians until Christ is formed in them. The language of a new creation and so forth. All of these things surround that theme of deification, even being the body of Christ. And there's a corporate element to deification, which our book emphasizes. It's not just an individual being transformed, but it's, as Paul talks about in Colossians and Ephesians, being built up into one mature man. And that mature man is Christ, that we are in this new Adam, the second Adam, who is creating this new redeemed humanity and so forth. And if Christ

is divine and we are his body, then we share in that divine life of Christ. So those are the sorts of things that we're talking about here. But anyway, let me just from there quickly move on. Let me jump there. If it's okay, let me just from there quickly move on to— Let me jump there. If it's okay, let me just ask for clarity on the biblical precedent before we come to your backstory. Okay. So is part of the debate when we're described as the body of Christ, is the debate whether that's just kind of a metaphor or whether there's like an ontological status of being the body of Christ. Is that kind of where some of the dividing line is here? Well, yeah, I mean, I think that it could be that way.

Sometimes it's just a linguistic thing where I don't like the term deification. It's not as though a Protestant has to use the term deification, since this is part of our heritage. You can use terms like, again, participation in the divine life. Or as Alice McGrath, he talks about Martin Luther using this language. He says that even though Martin Luther used the language of deification, that an umbrella term for this and other categories would be Christification, becoming transformed, conformed to the image of Christ and so forth. So there is that side. So when we look at, for example, John 15,

where we're called to abide in Christ, to abide in that vine, that there is this dependency that we receive life through Christ as we depend upon him. And so there's this asymmetrical relationship that we depend upon him and that Christ sustains us in that true vine and branches relationship. So there is something ontological that is a participation in the actual life that God shares with us, that we enter into, that leads to spiritual growth and nourishment and so forth, that changes our characters. There's a lot of stuff to change

in our lives. And so it is that life, that seed that 1 John talks about, that second birth that we're called to enter into, to participate in, that leads to that organic transformation in which we can, as Paul says in Philippians 2, to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, that we work out what has been worked into us by the Spirit of God. Okay, that's helpful. So really, some of the questions are like, when we are partakers with God, what does that mean that we partake? What does that look like? But the language is there in Scripture, like you said, and there's clearly historical precedent for this that's in part what we're trying to recover and we'll come back to some of those particulars

but tell me your interest in this why a philosopher weighed into theosis and deification right well it's it's kind of interesting how it developed of course i have a background in biblical studies and theology as well as philosophy. And so this has just been an interest of mine. And you see some of these themes coming out as you engage in, say, biblical theology. But in terms of how this came onto my lap, you may be, of course, familiar with the Christian research journal Hank Hanegraaff. The late editor of the Christian research journal, Elliot Miller,

had been revisiting this doctrine of deification because there had been writings on the part of the Christian research journal and going back to Walter Martin and the first Bible Answer Man, that there is a critique of the local churches movement, which was founded by Witness Lee, but also his mentor, Watchman Nee, who's been read profitably by many evangelicals, that these two are basically the ones who are the fountainhead

for this denomination, the local churches. And a number of evangelicals were actually rising up and saying these local churches, which are using that language of deification, are being vilified unfairly by a lot of evangelicals. I mean, I was having conversations about this in light of, say, some of the critiques that, say, Norman Geisler was issuing. A lot of people were following Norman Geisler was issuing a lot of people were following Norman Geisler and dismissing the local churches and this led to a negative negative treatment of them reputation amongst Christians in China as well and so so I got to

actually meet with some of these brothers from the local churches And this led to getting together every year at the annual Evangelical Theological Society meeting, of which I'm a part. And eventually, we just, you know, they're Trinitarians. They believe the Trinity. They believe that we share in the life of God, but certainly not in the very essence of God, but rather that we participate in that divine life that he gives to us. So we share in his life and nature, but not in the Godhead, as Witness Lee said. So with this, you know, kind of, I felt very, very much a mandate to stand with my brothers and sisters in Christ who are part of this wonderful movement and who are doing great work. And so I ended up co-presenting a couple of times at the Evangelical Theological Society meeting

with Christopher Wild who is part of this local church's movement. And a number of these people who are, you know, again, scholars from within this movement are, you know, have been involved in places like Talbot and Fuller Seminary and so forth, evangelical institutions. And so I think the time has finally come, not just for them

to be embraced as brothers and sisters in Christ, evangelically minded and so forth, but also to see that they have been, it says way ahead of us, tapping into the heritage that goes back to say, again, of course the New Testament scripture, but also to Athanasius from the fourth century, early fourth century, where he said, "'The son of God became man so that the sons of men

"'might become,' not sons of God, but God. He uses that language of becoming deified, of entering just as Christ becomes human. We, to some, in an important way, become deified by being united with Christ because we share in that divine life with Christ. So in a sense, the time has come for this book to come out, and it really taps into the Protestant slash non-denominational heritage that we all share and need to become more aware of. That's such a fascinating backstory. I was not aware of how it has implications for local churches being considered a cult or being outside of the faith. And yet when you look at it and what they mean, you're making the case this is not what's at stake. Now, you gave a quote from Athanasius, obviously going back to the early church, sounds very similar to a quote by, let's say, either a

former prophet or president, Lorenzo Snow, in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He said, as man is, God once was. As God is, man can become. Can you clarify how deification is different than either Latter-day Saint views or pantheistic views? Right. Yeah, it's a great question. And sometimes Mormons will, I think in a sneaky way, try to utilize this language that is found within Christendom and especially within Eastern Orthodoxy. Orthodox, you know, any Christian who holds to Orthodox doctrine is going to make a very clear distinction between the creator and the creature, that the creator is infinite, the creature is finite. And so, but for Mormonism, for the Latter-day Saints, there is no fundamental demarcation between creator and creature. It's basically just a kind of continuum where you, where just as God began, we are now. And we eventually can come to that place

where God presently is. And for example, in the, there's that Lorenzo Snow quotation, but Joseph Smith in 1844, of course, the founder of the Latter-day Saints, he was giving what's called the King Follett Discourse, where he's telling about how God became God and simply, you know, God is simply an exalted man. That's all there is to it. And that we can become like God is now. And that is a radical departure from what Eastern Orthodoxy has been saying and certainly what the others across Christendom

have been saying deification means. So we need to rid ourselves of that sort of a notion that, oh, maybe there's some similarity here. No, there is no such continuity between creator and creature, that we are deified receiving the divine life, but it is not metaphysical or ontological in which we share in the essence of the Godhead. We certainly are not talking about that. And in the same way, we can talk about, say, Eastern views. I think of someone like a Shirley McLean who wrote a book called Out on a Branch, where she talked about being a co-creator with

God. And she would be running out on the beach after this realization that she is divine. I am God. I am God. And the problem with humanity is that we have forgotten we are divine. Or even in, say, and of course, the New Age movement is kind of like a modernized Hinduism. And in Hinduism, you have the Upanishad scriptures, for example, which talk about how the soul, Atman, is identical to Brahman, God. So and for your audiences, maybe to put those together and end up with Batman, you know, Atman and Brahman, we get Batman for you. Anyway, but but all all this all distinctions between the self and God are dissolved.

So this realization that you are divine, that, you know, that brings liberation from the wheel of reincarnation, birth, death, rebirth, and so forth. So it is, again, far removed from that sort of a sense as well. So we're not talking about pantheism. We're not talking about monism, where I am identical to God and so forth. This is something far different. And we just don't have this sort of an analogy or comparison in these Eastern religions or Mormonism. The distinction between the creator and the creature is huge. It's one thing to say the creature can become the creator or become a

creator or participate in some sense in a life with the creator but maintain that distinction that's huge so on a latter-day saint view god was once a man and quite literally sinned at some point uh before he acquired at presumably sinless state right now that's a very different view where there's you know and Mormon is you might say the difference between me and God is one of degree not one of kind whereas the doctrine of deification there's a difference in kind not just in degree and what makes it hard is the language of course is similar and some of these statements isolated from their theological backdrop sound also similar as well give me a

cent you might have already answered this just so we can move on but why do you think this doctrine is making a comeback now well i think the there has been a tapping into the heritage of this doctrine within Protestant and non-denominational circles. Of course, we've talked about the local churches, you know, Watchman Nee, Witness Lee, who've been tapping into this for a long time. And we have started to see some people revisiting some of our Protestant predecessors, Calvin and Luther, and then of course, we got some early reformers, et cetera, who are talking this language. And we've also got other Protestants

like the Wesley brothers or Jonathan Edwards or C.S. Lewis. And there's this realization, wow, they're talking this Athanasian language. They're talking about this sharing in the life of God, of becoming deified, of being glorified, of being Christified and so forth. And so the time has come for a volume like this. And it is Michael Gorman in the fore forward to our book says that this book wouldn't have been possible uh just a short time ago but now with all of this converging scholarship and bringing it all together in one volume uh to introduce people to this theme to look at the

practical implications of deification uh to to think more organically about how we share in that life of God, rather than just being something that we say, oh yeah, I'm united with Christ. I am becoming transformed from one degree of glory to another. What does that actually look like in terms of how we tap into that life? It's not just a matter of something that is intellectual, but it's something that is actually metaphysical, something that is's substantial that the love of god has been poured out into our hearts by the holy spirit whom he has given to us as romans 5 says uh you know so we're seeing some things wonderful you know some wonderful things happening uh two years ago at the evangelical theological society michael reardon and i we had a panel discussion that we were a part of on the topic of deification, it was well attended, some great conversation.

We've got some leading theologians contributing to this, Veliamati Karkainen, Fuller Seminary, Alistair McGrath, Ben Blackwell and others. So we're really excited to see such a robust set of scholars stepping forward and giving their input on this conversation. And I just, you know, after I got an email from Alistair McGrath, one of our contributors, he wrote on Luther. And after he

received his copy of the book in the mail, he said, I spent the afternoon reading this book, and he said, I really do think there's a wonderful contribution to the literature on deification. I love that. Well, yesterday I ran into Kyle Strobel, one of my colleagues here at Talbot, who's done a lot of work on Jonathan Edwards. And I think you were in conversation about him. Maybe you write in a chapter, it ended up not working out, but he made the point, he goes, there's a deep history of this in Protestant thinkers you wouldn't expect. So let's maybe just kind of briefly touch on a few of these. I want to give you a quote that each of them said, and maybe just explain what was meant by it. So let's maybe just kind of briefly touch on a few of these. I want to give you a quote that each of them said, and maybe just explain what was meant by it. So Martin Luther, obviously

the Protestant reformer, he said, quote, God becomes man so that man may become God. What did he mean by that? Yeah, well, he's basically, like I said, quoting Athanasius here, this early fourth century theologian, and that this is that there is this, the incarnation, the point of the incarnation that God steps into, takes on our humanity, stepping into this world in order to elevate us, that Jesus talks about the glory that he had with the Father in John 17, that he is going to be, of course, glorified himself through the cross and so forth. But he also desires for human beings to share, his followers to share in that glory as well, that they may participate, that they may share in that oneness.

Again, not in that ontological metaphysical oneness of father, son, and spirit, but again, in that life. And John, of course, is full of that language of eternal life. The one who has the son has life and so forth. There's something very organic here. So we, you know, God, it's just condescends to us that we may be elevated, that we might share in that life of God or become deified. So that's what's behind Martin Luther's quotation there. So let me read three others and then you can comment on each of them or just make a general statement, because I think they're roughly kind of saying the same thing. So another reformer, obviously, Calvin said, let us then mark that the end of the gospel is to render us eventually conformable to God, and if we may speak, to deify us. Jonathan Edwards suggests that the union between God and creatures is so close

that when God loves the graced creatures, he's loving himself at the same time. Now, before we jump to C.S. Lewis, who's more modern, any thoughts on Calvin or Edwards, or have we kind of covered what you think they mean by that? Just a couple of comments on John Calvin. We see that there is this Christification taking place or deification, that if we become conformed to the image of Christ, we're becoming more divine, that Christ is the one who is the revealer of the Father, the one who has seen me, has seen the Father. And so as we are being conformed to the image of

Christ, we are becoming conformed to that divine image. Jonathan Edwards, it's interesting that Jonathan Edwards scholars sometimes say that he has that language of almost pantheism, where the divine covers everything, it seems, or that things outside of God are divine. But if you understand that Jonathan Edwards is tapping into this tradition of deification, you step back and say, oh, I see where that's coming from. Some of those charges that are being leveled against Jonathan Edwards, we need to step back and say, oh, because of that deep union, there is something profound going on here. The life of God is being shared. And so it is basically God's freely giving to us

of all things in Christ, as Romans chapter 8 says, that the things that belong to Christ belong to us. And so Jonathan Edwards is tapping into the richness of those biblical themes. We're going to get to how this plays itself out in kind of spiritual growth, but it involves a kind of reframing, especially for Protestants that don't tend to think this way. And that reframing in itself, I think, is really powerful. And reading the book has really caused me to think through some things in my mind I hadn't before. But there's a lot of other thinkers you guys cover in the book. But C.S. Lewis said, and before I read this, I've seen him in many Latter-day Saint bookstores. And I think there's a sense where they kind of feel like he's making a case they can agree with and there's kind of a hint to divinity in the way they understand it becoming god rather than

what lewis meant but lewis says the son of god became a man to enable men to become sons of god what was unique about lewis weaving this into his book, Mere Christianity? Yeah, well, Lewis certainly draws a lot on the fourth slash fifth century Saint Augustine, who uses this same sort of Athanasian language. And so he's tapping into this very theme, that very theology as well. And it's a friend of mine who's done work on C.S. Lewis, Rob Garcia, by the way, Rob Garcia teaches a class on philosophy of literature at where I teach Palm Beach Atlantic University. So he comes in and teaches about this. And we had talked about the possibility of his participation in this volume, actually, and he couldn't do it. So we had another C.S.

Lewis scholar come in and do a very capable job. But Rob said, as he had been reading through Mere Christianity again, he said, it's all about deification. It's all about this theme, that as you read closely, as you see the central theme that brings illumination to the very, just to the entire book, it just lights up. And in some ways we can reapply this, what C.S. Lewis said, like he said, I believe in Christianity, like I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it,

but because by it, I see everything else. So when you're reading mere christianity uh you can see this very statement the son of god became man to enable men to become sons of god but by that statement you can see everything else in mere christianity kind of coming to life and taking on that resonance it's interesting he makes the distinction between the kind of bios life which is our physical biological life and yet we're made for spiritual life. And his sense of becoming sons of God is really entering into the spiritual life that God has for us. So that clarification was really, really helpful. Now in the foreword for the book,

Michael Gorman says that few people, especially Protestants, are familiar with deification, and yet this needs to change. Honestly, Paul, I'm roughly familiar with it, really only from interactions with Latter-day Saints and Greek Orthodox or Orthodox at times. And I'm not super familiar with it. So if I'm not, I suspect most other people are not as well. So why is awareness of this even important for the church as a whole? Or is it just interesting for scholars at the ETS to talk about this kind of stuff? Why does it matter? Yeah.

Well, you know, one thing is, as I said before, and just to remind people this, just because you the word deification is used, it's not as though that's the only term that can be used. There are other words in the in the neighborhood in that vocabulary that can also be utilized. And as I said, Martin Luther's preferred term might be called Christification. But it has that same theme even though he used that term deification. But I think what this tradition is helping to put us into touch with is this an ancient theme from the early church that actually is rooted in scripture. And I think that we have kind of lost touch with the organic nature of the life of Christ being within us, that sometimes this can be a kind of, I don't know, perhaps legalism. And it's easy to fall into that trap, I know, of just kind of

following rules and so forth, of conforming and imitating Christ in a certain sense. But there is a divine life that we need to be tapping into. And I think so often we forget about passages like Christ, who is our life, where we see that Paul's greatest goal is to see that Christ is formed in those who have been, you know, whom he's led to faith, that this is really the priority. And I think we can, there is in part a grasping of this, but I think what deification introduces to us in a new way is the organic way in which this happens. And we see the early reformers and founders of other denominations like the Wesley brothers tapping into this ancient tradition and reminding us that we belong to something deeper,

that this isn't just something that came on the scene recently, but there is a richness. And as we look at, say, other, you know, there are many people who are maybe going to Anglicanism and other liturgical denominations. They're tapping into that ancient faith. They want to be part of something older. They want to be part of something

that is greater than themselves, something that just didn't pop up recently. And a lot of people think, oh, Protestantism is that way. Actually, Protestantism is a tapping into an ancient tradition that martin luther for example wanted to tap into the church fathers reclaim their message because a lot of it was being obscured uh in his own day uh so we we need to come to this term uh deification uh and and maybe even better understand some of our hymnody. Of course, what John, Charles Wesley, he, even in his hymn, Love Divine, you know, it's like one verse says, finish then thy new creation, pure and spotless, let us be, let us see thy great salvation,

perfectly restored in thee, change from glory into glory till in heaven we take our place, till we cast our crowns before thee, lost in wonder, love and praise. There's that transformation of glory into glory, that there is a receiving a nature, as it were, from above or a life from above, more accurately. And also then sharing in that life with God. And so the John Wesley's hymns are very, Charles Wesley's hymns are very much a part of that tradition. There's also another facet here that our book is emphasizing that, as I said,

it looks not just at say individual transformation of tapping into that life of, you know, and again, I think this can enrich our prayer lives as we recognize that there is a life that we enter into where we abide in Christ, where we remain in him, where we, through, you know, dependence upon him, derive life and sustenance from him. And of course, this enriches our prayer life,

our sense of dependency on him. But there's also a corporate dimension here where we are being built up into one new man that is Christ, the second Adam, who came to restore humanity to its original glory, that human beings fell away from that, and that we need to look back at what that new creation language looks like, that Christ is the one who, as the second Adam, the true archetypal human, has come to restore that fallen image, that damaged image, to restore us to our vocation of being co-rulers with Christ and priests to God, which is what Revelation, for

example, is talking about, or 1 Peter 2, that we are a royal priesthood. There's that language of ruling, just as Adam was called to rule. And of course, you know, the priesthood, that we are a kingdom of priests. And so there's that language of having this access to God, of being true worshipers of God in that tradition. So there are a lot of things that we tap into. And I think it just brings illumination to a lot of the doctrines that we perhaps have,

talk about union with Christ, glorification and so forth. And I think it gives to us a kind of a hub around which we can use that language, tap into it. And it serves as, I think, a vivid reminder of the kind of work that God desires to do in our lives. The last way you frame that, I think, has been at least most helpful to me, that there's a sense of like, when we start to think through this lens it gives us a whole different framework or perspective of thinking about spiritual growth thinking about prayer thinking about reading the scriptures what it means to partake in you know in christ and in god the father what does that mean it's kind of a it's a a shift in itself that probably a lot of Protestants, myself included, have not really thought about a lot.

Now, one of the questions that comes up you talked about is that we are partaking of kind of the divine essence, so to speak, and it's conforming us. Are we being conformed to God the Father or conform to Jesus Christ? And if Jesus Christ, his human nature and his divine nature, like, break down for me, or is there not even a relevant difference there? Yeah, yeah. Well, it's a great question. Of course, you know, one of the things that we can go back to is seeing that we share in, you know, and again, because it can be worded differently, the Eastern Orthodox talk about the divine essence and then the divine energies that we, the life that God imbues us with that we participate in.

So there is that facet, or as Witness Lee talked about, that we share in a kind of, in a loose sense, the nature and life of God, but not in his Godhead. So, again, drawing on that language of 2 Peter 1, 4, that we are partakers of the divine nature. But again, we should not see ourselves, we should not make the Mormon error here, of course. But the point here is that the divine triune life is very much involved here.

So the central focus, of course, is Jesus Christ, the character of Christ, God becoming, the son of God becoming human so that humans might be elevated in their stature through the work of Jesus Christ, the second Adam, bringing about this new creation, not just individually, but also corporately. We're to grow up into Christ who is the head,

to be animated by his life, to be empowered by his love and so forth. But you do see occasional verses, for example, Ephesians 5.1, where Paul calls on believers, says become imitators of God as dearly loved children and walk in love just as Christ also loved us and gave himself up for us, et cetera.

So we are to imitate God. And there is a feature of that, even in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus talks about, blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons, children of God, that we resemble God as we embark on bringing peace, of sharing the gospel of peace, of peacemaking, as we seek to enhance and bring about reconciled relationships where there's brokenness and so forth. But again, primarily it is focused on Christ, but it does, through Christ, there is this introduction into participation in the life of the Trinity.

So it's not just Jesus alone, but there is this interplay of Father, Son, and Spirit. So in John's gospel, we know, of course, the doctrine of the Trinity, we see that God, Father, Son, and Spirit, there's this mutual indwelling. It's called perichoresis, where there's mutual indwelling.

There's this mutual love and transparency and participation in one another's, you know, persons within the Godhead. And so we, as we think about that, we look at, say, John 14, where Jesus says, the one who has my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me. And the one who loves me will be loved by my father, and I will love him and will disclose myself to him. And it goes on in verse 23 to say, if anyone loves me, he will keep my word and my father and I will love him and will disclose myself to him. And it goes on in verse 23 to say, if anyone loves me, he will keep my word and my father will love him and we will come and make our abode with him. And this is just in the in the in the connection just prior to this,

that there is the language of Christ saying when he's going to return to the father by way of the cross and resurrection, he says, I will not leave you as orphans. I will come to you. And how is he coming to us? By the person of the Holy Spirit, who is going to exalt and glorify Jesus. And so we see actually the life of the Trinity here in John chapter 14, that the believer taps into, that there is this organic connection, this living connection with the divine Trinity, again, through the true human Jesus Christ, the second Adam. And again, a real highlight that this is not a book that's like, here's five things to do

to grow spiritually. You're talking about a theologically rich doctrine that just reframes, like you've quoted multiple times, the gospel. John, what does it mean that I am in you and you are in me and we are in the Father? Like, what do these terms really mean? Well, it's not just we're in relationship, although that's true. It goes even deeper to that. And when we reframe it and start to see that, it can shape the way we live. That's a lot of what C.S. Lewis said. He said, when we just reframe our thinking about this and act in light of it, then it starts to change us. Now, tell me about this. What other relevance

besides, and maybe this is the key point, the distinction between pantheism and Latter-day Saints? Are there other connections with apologetics that it's important to know with this doctrine? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think it's a great question and would have been perhaps great to have a chapter on apologetics in this book on the doctrine of deification. But yeah, there certainly is relevance here. When I talk about apologetics, I'm often quoting the late Dallas Willard, who was very much a part of this movement

of the spiritual disciplines, the importance of transformation and Christ likeness and so forth. And so he's just a rich resource for so many Christians on this, you know, the importance of spiritual growth and in a sense, disciplining ourselves for the purpose of godliness and so on. But Dallas Willard talked about how apologetics is fundamentally an exercise in doubt removal for both the believer and the unbeliever. so that say the believer might get back on track with his discipleship with Christ,

or for the first time, the unbeliever might get on the path of discipleship and become more like Christ. So as we look at apologetics, we see that even something like doubt, it can be such a, it can be very corrosive. If one does not handle doubting well,

and John Donne, the poet, talked about how we ought to doubt wisely. There are ways to doubt properly and improper ways to doubt as well. And I know you've wrestled with those things, Sean, and appreciated your, you know, the sorts of things you've written about that talk about how you have wrestled with these things. And sometimes doubt can actually be an idolatrous sort of a thing

where we, in some ways, don't even bother to challenge our own doubts, but we simply latch onto them and take them as authoritative and never ask questions about how authoritative is this question that I'm asking? Should I take it as seriously as some of the things that I feel that I believe very strongly that I think really make a lot of sense and so forth. So doubts can be debilitating, corrosive to the spiritual life and may prevent us from growing in the Lord's grace.

And so there's one feature there. Another thing is this, that when it comes to apologetics, but she deals with reasons and arguments and so forth, but so often apologetics is going to be a much more fruitful undertaking in every way. When it's connected to, say, loving relationships, to Christ-like character, of course, 1 Peter 3.15 talks about engaging with people, with our answers, with gentleness and respect. And I think sometimes people treat apologetics as though it's beating people up for Jesus. But actually, it turns out to be a strong

support to evangelism, to the call, to the invitation for people to explore the goodness, truth, and beauty of Jesus so that they might worship him too and if we keep the uh you know if we keep jesus central if we see uh that that transformation is something that christ that that that the scriptures are about that these are this is the goal for us that we're going to regard others not in a fleshly sort of way as paul talks about in 2 corinthians 10 but actually we're going to see them with uh spiritual and kingdom eyes that we want to see them come to worship jesus just like we ourselves worship him that's helpful so it's less of a doctrine that we need to learn to like defend like the trinity or the incarnation but one that when we understand it can change the character of the Christian and

the apologist to defend the faith in a more loving, gracious, Christ-like fashion, because as the title says, we've been transformed into Christ's image. Then it helps us deal with doubt. Then it helps us love people as we're supposed to. That's a helpful way to look at this doctrine. Is there any other religion you're aware of that has a comparable doctrine to deification that doesn't err on the side of like pantheism or becoming a god like Mormonism does? Or is this really unique to Christianity? Yeah, this really is something unique and remarkable. And of of course there may be uh kind of glimmers of transformation uh in in you know think of say a story like beauty and the beast and of course uh j.r.r tolkien uh

mentioned how the gospel is basically basically reiterated in our best fairy, that it begins with joy, it ends with joy, that there is of course some intrusion into that joy, and there is a champion who comes along and who rescues those who are suffering, those who are groaning under the load of the curse of the evil that is all around. And indeed, that's what we all need. So basically, the end of the story for is all around. And indeed that's what we all need to be. So basically the end of the story for the Christian is, and they lived happily ever after,

that joy is restored where tears are wiped away and so forth. And so you think of something like Beauty and the Beast, where there is this transformation of someone who learns to love and so on. And so you can, so there are many things to tap into. And C.S. Lewis was very good about this. He said, we don't have to dismiss all of these, maybe images of, you know,

maybe an image of grace here or an image of self-sacrifice there, et cetera, that all of these things serve as pointers to Jesus, who is the embodiment of all of the best philosophies, religious truths, ethical principles, et cetera, that Jesus is the one who is myth became fact, that these, yeah, you'd have all these myths out there, but actually in Jesus, these are realized in the one who came to earth, became God incarnate, and who embodies the best of all of these kind of glimmers of light in other worldviews and stories and so forth, such that we don't have to reject them. And actually this can serve as a bridge to build

with others as we, just as Paul did, talk the the altar to the unknown god that we can also talk about some of these areas where we could tap into those realities and and build bridges for the gospel uh so we you know so so and maybe we can kind of shift to even just talking about as we look at uh how the christian faith works in terms of that union with christ of god being united to us through christ that there, just think of these two ways of looking at these two worldviews. There's the worldview of pantheism, where everything is divine, everything is God. And then you have the other end of the spectrum, you have deism, where God just winds up the universe, lets it go, remains detached from the world, doesn't really

involve himself in any way, no miracles, no special revelation and so forth. But look at the biblical faith as coming in between those where there is on the one hand, a union with God, but also there is a distinction from God where God is always meeting with people, starting in the garden where he meets with Adam and Eve, walks in the garden with them, that he's meeting with the patriarchs. And then they're setting up these altars because God has revealed himself or God has done something remarkable.

And so God is always, there are always meeting places, tabernacles, temples. And of course, with Jesus, the word becomes flesh and tabernacles among us. And of course, we then are called the temples of God that we have been bought with a price. Therefore glorify God in your bodies that our bodies are inhabited by the Holy Spirit who has come to manifest the reality of Christ to us. And then of course, in the new heavens and the new earth where we will, it says that God will dwell

in the midst of them and the New Earth, where we will, it says that, you know, God will dwell in the midst of them, and they will be, God's people will be, you know, that they will be, you know, he will be their God, and they will be his people. So there is that union with God without losing our own distinctiveness. Someone has used the analogy of putting a piece of metal in the fire. And that metal starts to glow, but it still retains its shape. And so there is something that has been infused into that metal, but yet it remains, that it has its own distinctiveness. It doesn't just become a blob. Of course, it could if you heat it up high enough, but let the analogy stay as it is, and you get the point. I do. Fair enough. That's a helpful distinction that's there. So it seems like maybe other religions have a hint of this. I mean, I don't know, maybe in

Sufi Islam, there's a sense because it's a little bit more esoteric, maybe something that has some crossover. But you really need the incarnation of Christ to have this kind of deification. And of course, the powering of the Holy Spirit to lead to this transformation, to have this kind of doctrine. I'm curious, Paul, what do you want to see happen with this? And I don't just mean the book. I mean, should people teach classes on this? Should they preach on this? Should we have systematic theologies, have a chapter on angelology, the end time, salvation, deification? What would this look like for people to be aware of this in the church positively? Yeah. Well, one book that I found helpful early on in my own

Christian life as I was kind of exploring some of these themes. It's a book by Lewis Speeds who taught a course at, who taught at Fuller Seminary as a theologian there and wrote a lot of practical books for Christians, kind of your serious-minded lay Christian. And I really found the Union with Christ book helpful. So maybe even starting with Christ book helpful so maybe even starting with a book like that to or shoot from you know the the book that

Michael had reared it and I have co-edited here just maybe some of the themes of tapping into them or even churches from particular denominational points of view like Lutheranism or the Reformed or the Wesleyan traditions and so forth, or those who are big fans of Jonathan Edwards, to actually look at the kind of language that they're using and see the richness of this. And so I think a class on, say, union with Christ, what the implications are of life with Christ, of what it means to abide in Christ, what it means to have the new birth, to be born again, to have the seed of God dwelling within us, and having this organic growth that takes place, that we're to grow up into all aspects, into Christ,

that we're to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. So there are these themes that we can tag. What does it mean to be glorified? It's interesting that in 2 Thessalonians 1, Paul writes, he says, so that the name of the Lord Jesus Christ will be glorified in you. So Christ glorified in you. Yeah, we get that. And you glorified in him.

So there's this picture of not just Christ being glorified through us, but also we being glorified in him. So there's this picture of not just Christ being glorified through us, but also we being glorified in him. It's kind of like the sun shining on and giving brightness to the moon. The moon doesn't have life in itself, as it were, light in itself, but that light is reflected onto the moon. And so it has its own glory, not by virtue of itself, but by some vibrant, you know, energetic source outside of it. And so I would encourage people to tackle these themes of deification by virtue of new creation, union with Christ, transformation, glorification, to look at what that entails in my daily life in terms of how I pray and in terms of how I tap into an ancient tradition that goes beyond maybe the founding of my church in 1960 or something,

but rather tap, realizing that there is a richer language, a liturgy, a theology that is tapping into ultimately the scriptures and more even beyond that, what God has done for us in Jesus Christ to unite us to himself, to impart that life to us. And the one who has the son has this life. And so there are these, I think there's kind of a broad application here but but maybe that's a place to start and it fundamentally going back to the scripture and saying what have I been missing so so there's that yeah that's that's real helpful so a couple questions for you there's a chapter at the end that jumped out to me I was like okay this is interesting uh you didn't write it but obviously helped edit and compile it is on transhumanism. Like what is the relationship between the two of those?

And why include that in a chapter that talks about like Luther and CSU? It's all sudden it's like transhumanism. Connect that for us. Yeah. And I should add this too, that in this book, there are all kinds of applications to, you know, how do you do, for example, theological education with this view of deification in mind? How do you embark in church life utilizing this language of,

you know, in this, the reality of deification and so forth? So this is yet another kind of application to on a very cutting edge topic, transhumanism. And of course, you know, transhumanism is And of course, you know, transhumanism is ultimately a human centered attempt at transformation to remake human beings by bringing together biology and technology to make them, you know, better, as it were, more intelligent, even immortal,

that we can somehow preserve something of the, you know, the quote, knowledge or the information that human beings have in preserving that. I mean, of course, it's a bankrupt attempt. There's no way that you would have that kind of continuity of personhood if you don't have a, if you don't have the soul that brings about that continuity of a personal identity. But in theology, this would be called Pelagianism,

where it's a human self-effort, apart from any dependence upon God, human self-effort to make human beings divine. You'll become like God, attempting to rule nature and to cheat death. And so it's up to human beings themselves. So this is an effort at deification, but from a human, of course, it's up to human beings themselves so this is an effort at deification but from a human of course it's guaranteed to fail by contrast deification by grace is a guaranteed success as

it were that god is going to able to bring it about you know you don't have to depend upon your own uh you know efforts to remake yourself to to to do the right things to your body and so forth. This is something that comes about through the gospel of Jesus Christ, that there is a divinely rooted transformation that comes through the grace of God. Humans are made into a new creation and that there is this growth that continues,

that we receive this transformation by grace, moving from one degree of glory to another, that this immortality itself is realized in the bodily resurrection of Jesus, that because he lives, we also will live. Because his body was raised, we too will be raised immortal. And the immortality of the soul is not a Christian doctrine. It is the immortality of the body, that our bodies will be raised immortal. And so that is part of the ultimate transformation, of course, as 1 John 3 says that, when Christ appears,

we don't know what exactly that's gonna look like, but we know that we are gonna be like him, for we will see him as he is. There is that guarantee that God is gonna bring this about. And so when we as Christians, as we wrestle through the Christian life, and here's another kind of practical application, unlike transhumanism, transformation,

a spiritual transformation doesn't eliminate our weaknesses. That weakness, there's a role of suffering that comes about to shape our character, that Jesus Christ became weak for us so that we might live in the strength of God. The Christian life involves suffering. It involves death to self. It involves displaying the glory of God through our weakness. You know, Paul talked about how his strength, that Christ's strength was perfected in his own weakness, in that thorn in the flesh that he had. And so rather than getting rid of that thorn in the flesh, you know, the earthly transhumanist movement, Paul, Jesus tells Paul that his grace is sufficient.

So Paul said, you know, I'm gonna boast about my weakness because this is really where the power of Christ is being displayed. So the Christian faith is actually far more realistic. Immortality and transformation are guaranteed for those who put their trust in the gospel, but transhumanism is simply a false pursuit. It's doomed to failure.

That contrast is a really helpful place for, I think, for us to wrap up this conversation because in some sense, that last chapter could have been on a range of false gospels that are human-centered, whether it's consumerism, maybe it's a kind of healthism that if I just work out enough,

I could extend my life forever. Transhumanism is just one of the most recent discussed kind of cutting edge topics that highlights really every other system, every other religion at some point is based on our efforts. What we do, it's a works based system at the root of Christianity you're saying it's faith-based it's what God has done for us he loves us he invites us into relationship with him not just in some intellectual idea but as you argued like metaphysically into a relationship with God, transforms us from the inside out. That is perhaps the greatest contrast that we could draw on this topic of deification.

Now, I've got a million more questions for you. This just intrigued me on so many levels. But I'll tell you, I enjoyed the book. I enjoyed some chapters more than other chapters. And I took your advice, Paul. You came out to Biola maybe 10 or 15 years ago. We had this apologetics network. And he said, when you get a compilation book, don't feel you have to read every chapter. Read the ones that are most helpful. Give yourself permission not to. And I thought, you know what? There's one or two

that don't interest me. But your chapter, the chapter on transhumanism, the chapter on the biblical basis for this, and the chapter on C.S. chapter on the biblical basis for this and the chapter on c.s lewis were really really unique amongst others and eye-opening to me so you're not writing this for lay people it's understandable it's not just for scholars but it's ibp academic it's called transformed into the same image so if you want basically what we talked about today and oh the good you got a new one i got like one of the early like okay there you go so i just i want readers to know that this isn't a popular book you read when you're tired at 10 p.m unless you're a night person this is someone who says i want to stretch my mind i want to stand some of the roots of my faith understand

this doctrine and then like you said there's some practical things for education, spiritual growth, apologetics woven in there too. That's the nature of this book. So thanks for coming on. Thanks for talking about it. Always enjoy it. I appreciate it. Thanks. It's been such a treat and glad we could unpack these themes together. It's always fun. Now folks, watch them before you click away and make sure you hit subscribe. We've got some other shows coming up like this on a range of apologetic, theological, cultural issues. And if you thought about studying apologetics, we would love to have you at Talbot School of Theology at Biola. We've got a full distance program and it's one of the top, if not the top rated apologetics MA program online and in person. Check it out. We'd love to have you. If you're not ready to do a master's,

we have what we call kind of a certificate program where we'll just train you how to do apologetics, walk you through that. Obviously less time, less expensive, but we'll help you become an apologist. Paul, we'll do it again. Thanks for coming on. Hooray.

Thanks so much. Appreciate it, Sean.