The Sean McDowell Show - Charlie Kirk, Revival, and How the Church MUST Respond (ft. Allie Beth Stuckey)

Episode Date: September 30, 2025

Is there a revival in America? In the wake of the recent tragedy of Charlie Kirk, many people are turning to church and God. How must we–as individuals and as a church–respond in our cultural moment? Allie Beth Stuckey is a well known guest and friend of the show and she is here today to share her observations, unique perspective, and offer encouragement for the church. Please share stories below of how YOU have seen people repent, come to church, read their Bibles more, or change their lives. Do you think we are in a revival? Please share your stories and perspective below. READ: "Toxic Empathy" (https://amzn.to/46rSoPm) WATCH: Is Empathy a Sin? A Clarifying Debate (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwhl0hcrans&t=74s) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

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Allie Beth Stucky, would you say we're in the middle of a revival right now in America? I would say that we are at the beginnings of revival in America. I hope so. I think that we have to wait to see what is the fruit. And that is how we judge what the tree is. And that is how we judge the validity of whether or not we're in a revival. And, you know, Jonathan Edwards in the first to Great Awakening, he wrote about what the fruit of a true revival that of course is sparked by the Holy Spirit, what it would really look like. And among his several indicators, he said, you know, a love for God's word, true repentance, a desire to exalt Christ and his glory and his truth over our experiences, over our feelings. And to me, that sounds like a pretty good list of

of what we should look for to be able to determine whether a widespread revival is happening. Of course, what we know in the big picture is that Christ is going to gather his entire flock to himself. Amen. And he will stop at nothing to gather his people. And whether we are living in one of those concentrated times of tons and tons of people coming to him at the same time, I pray and hope so. Or whether this is a similar pacing that we've seen in the past, maybe has yet to

be seen. But, and we can talk about this, what is the responsibility of those who are already in the body of Christ, who are Christians, who are seeing people come to church for the first time, who are starting to say, as I've seen, as you've seen, I'm agnostic, I'm atheist, but maybe there's something to this. Evil sure seems real. So maybe the other side is real, too. As we are, you know, trying to figure out what moment are we in, what we do know is that we do have responsibility as Christians to these new people that are coming into the full. I think that framing is exactly right. One mistake is for people just to dismiss what's going on. And I'm like, time out. I am seeing some powerful stuff. In the other hand, to call this revival yet, like just like you said, quoting the servant of the mount, like, you know, we've got to test the fruits and give this time before we know what the spirit is doing. Now, let me take a step back. I, Justin Breyerley wrote a book in 2023, the surprising rebirth of belief in God. He was really the first person.

So we wrote that in 2022. And he talked about how the conversation is shifting. So from the new atheist to people like Tom Holland and Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Routts and Joe Rogan who have some respect and like recognition, we need the Christian faith, he said there's these conversions, people like Russell Brand, Ion Herssey Ali. Like we're seeing these signs. And so I've been given a talk this year called seven reasons God has been. back in 2025.

And so before what happened with Charlie Kirk, I wasn't saying we're in revival, but I was saying something is happening. And not all that is interest in Christianity. There's like psychedelics and UFOs. There's a spiritual opening that's taking place. Did you see that? Like were you talking about those kinds of things even before the assassination of Kirk? Well, I certainly saw an interest in Christianity that I thought, at least we were

from the conversations I was having, both on my show and in private, a real recognition that darkness exists. The recognition that this kind of myth that we've believed, I think really largely in the West and in America for the past several decades, that neutrality exists, that you can just kind of live in this world where there is no one particular worldview that's important that of course we just have rights. Of course you're just decent people. Of course you're just kind to your neighbor. Of course we believe in free speech and all of that stuff. We kind of like believe that that was just ingrained in America and detached it from its Christian foundation. But now as the demographics of the countries around the world have changed and we've seen such a surge

in the dominance of Islam and secularism and progressivism, we've seen, okay, one worldview is going to dominate. one worldview is going to dictate our policy, change our culture, is going to determine the entertainment that we are consuming. Nothing's neutral. And as we've seen progressivism in particular in the United States become more audacious in its questioning of not just marriage and sexuality, but even just the biological binary of gender, a lot of people have realized, oh, okay, so all of that common sense. sense things like, you know, inherent rights, things like liberty, things like the acknowledgement

of biological reality, those weren't just neutral ideas that everyone just came to naturally. Those were actually rooted in something. They were rooted in Christianity. They were rooted in the Amago Day. And so to me, it is like seeing the evil that really does exist in the world, the lies that really do exist in the world that has made a lot of people question. what's on the other side of that? Larry Singer's co-founder of Wikipedia. And that's how he became a Christian. He came on my show and he said, honestly, looking at a lot of the evil that's in Hollywood and in the like high rungs of power in the world, he was like learning about horrible things like child sex trafficking. That is what woke him up to Christianity. He started reading the Bible

because he was like, wait, hang on, something spiritual is happening here. And then reading the Bible led him to Christ. And so, yes, definitely saw a lot of what you are seeing, but it's through an interesting avenue that I wouldn't have expected. That is so interesting. You know, when I was growing up in the 90s, it was like live and let live, tolerance, don't judge. It's like those days are gone. We are quick to call things wrong. And whether or not someone sides with Israel or Palestine, nobody's like, hey, you know, I'm on team genocide. Like we all know there's black and white evil that's out there. And I think, gosh, I can't remember.

I think it was Frank Turich who said, shared the story of a prominent atheist sending a message to Charlie Kirk. It was like, I'm starting to believe in the devil and evil. And his response was like, if Satan, then God. Which is like rhetorically and philosophically brilliant and powerful. So I agree there's not only recognition right and wrong, but I think both of us on our channel have been leading into supernatural things. And like there is demon possession. There are near death experiences. And people are awakening to that. Now, okay, so let's fast forward. Tell me what you're seeing. I have a few stories I want to share, but whether it's personally or on your Instagram page, like what kinds of signs of repentance are you specifically? seen over the past couple weeks plus since the death of Charlie Kirk. Well, I would say at least from the outreach that I've received from my audience, or like them reaching out to me and telling me what they're doing. And obviously, I don't live in their

day-to-day lives. And so I don't know tangibly how their life looked yesterday versus how it looks today. But the messages that I've received saying, okay, I hadn't picked up my Bible in a year. I read the entire book of Matthew. I realized I got to get right with God. I went to church and then I got baptized. That to me, even though, again, I don't really know their day to day life. That is showing me that at least for a lot of people, that's just one small sample of so many messages I've received like that of people taking action. They're not just saying, okay, I really got to realize that God exists. Okay, God exists and then moving on. I've seen people say I've gone back to church. I got one message from someone who said, you know, after Charlie died and I started

seeing videos go around where he actually helped this father and son, the father was liberal, the son was conservative, like reconcile in that moment and see each other's like humanity and connect. This woman reached out to me and said that I reconciled with my dad after that. I hadn't talked to him in years, but I realized that me extending forgiveness and having a relationship with him is more important than our differences. I've seen people say that they got baptized. I've seen people say that they, I actually talked to a young woman when I guest hosted Charlie's show a few days ago.

This woman named Jacqueline had reached out to me and said, you know, I started listening to Charlie Kirk because my husband was listening to Charlie Kirk. But before that, I was pro abortion. I was into witchcraft, tarot cards, crystals, everything. But then I started listening to Charlie. He made me mad. But then I kept listening. and eventually just the truth of what he was saying completely shifted my worldview.

Christ captured her. She became a Christian. And she said she burned all of her witchcraft materials that she had. And so I know. And so I had her on the show because when she emailed me, I was like, that is so powerful. Please share it. And she did an awesome job.

So I, you know, I'm sure that there will be seed that falls on rocky soil. But my prayer and my hope is that the seed is falling on fertile soil and that we will see the fruit of repentance and of true revival, which will result in a love for the word of God and a desire for the glory of Christ instead of the glory of ourselves. Oh, I love that so much. So here's, it's hard to get a sense of how widespread this is because you're getting anecdotes. I'm getting anecdotes. You know, a few things.

Yeah, like there needs to be studies in six months. How many more people are going to church? How many more people are reading the Bible? How many people have reconciled? That's where the fruit will come out and we'll see this. six months, five years, ten years, if it's really revival or not. But some things in my neck of the woods, Pastor John Randall is right down the road for me,

dear friend, and he had an event at his church. And like 3,000 people came out just to pray and sing worship in light of Charlie Kirk's death. I couldn't go. I was flying in, but my son went. It was moving. I'm seeing pictures of like stadiums full of people coming together. And I'm not going to assume that everybody there agreed with him politically. I think probably most people did, but there's a lot of people there that are like, wait a minute.

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Search for Daily Bible app on Google Play and begin your day with hope, purpose, and peace. Something's happening. Evil is real. I need to repent. And so again, we'll see in the future, but that's one sign. I've had specific people reach out to me, Allie. I had a young man reach out and was like, when I heard, Erica Kirk talk about, she said, Charlie will stand before the Lord and he'll say, well done, my good and faithful servant. This young man was like, I don't know that I could stand before the Lord and say that because

of an addiction in his life. And he confessed it before the Lord and started getting it right. I get an email, Allie, I want to read it. And this, I got permission from this fellow to read it. This was from 1997. Let me frame it for you. I'm not proud of this, but there's only one person in my life I got in this person's face and said, if you don't get out of my face, I'm going to knock you out. I'm not proud of that.

But this person lived on my dorm at the time and was, I would describe at that time in his life, very judgmental, very harsh, telling everybody how to live their life and make it right before the Lord. and we had a Bible study on our floor. And looking back now, I was totally in the wrong. Like, I'd had different people lead it. And I had this guy lead it who had an errant view in the Trinity. And I just didn't understand what that meant. He ended up getting kicked out of Biola because of it. And I just didn't get it.

And this guy got in my face afterwards. And he leans in, he goes, I am ashamed of you word for word. And I just lost it. I'm pretty patient. And I was like, I will knock you out if you don't get out of my face. And that just wrecked our relationship. I got this email from him. And I said, can I share this?

He goes, I hope this finds you well. The assassination of Charlie Kirk has made a major impact on me. And I realized that our lives are very short. And we could depart from this earth at any moment. I'm mindful life as a vapor. One of things I regret in life is many regretful things I do when I was younger, how it acted up Biola. And I sincerely apologize for being rude to you.

He gives no excuses. 27 years later, I mean, I wish I could say, Allie, I wish I could say, you know, I prayed for him every day. And I wish I could say that. I didn't. But I have a feeling there's tons and tons of stories like this. So I'm going to ask people to comment. If you've heard a specific story like this over the past couple weeks, share it. Share it and let us know.

Be bold about it. it. Now, let me ask you this. We're at a time where people are saying we need a stronger prophetic voice. We need a gracious voice. We need both. Like, I think when we look back in 50 years at the memorial, I'm pretty sure people are going to say they remember Erica Kirk forgiving the shooter is much or more than anything. I'm curious. if you agree with me on that. And moving forward, what do you think the church as a whole should do right now in this cultural moment? Is it we need prophetic voice? We need love. We need all of it just more biblically. What's your sense moving forward? Yeah, there's a big debate online right now

about third wayism, which I know that you're familiar, but maybe not everyone in the audience is familiar. And it's typically associated with Tim Keller, the late Tim Keller. And And I don't even know if he necessarily used that exact term, but people typically ascribe this to him. The idea that it's neither left nor right, that we kind of have to be above and beyond politics and outside of politics. And maybe we shouldn't even be focused on these culture war issues that divide and some would say inhibit the gospel. And in light of Charlie Kirk's impact, there's a lot of people who have been saying, no, we have to reject that altogether because look, Charlie Kirk wedded those two things. He definitely talked about cultural and political issues. but he was completely unashamed of the gospel.

And so we actually need to take that stance because this could be the spark of a revival. And obviously, I'm more in the Charlie Kirk camp. I do believe we should speak against the darkness very specifically that there is a place for Christians in every single sphere of society because we are the salt in light. Like we add the preservative, the flavor,

the light, the goodness, and everywhere. In every sphere of power, there needs to be a Christian speaking truth to lies. I absolutely believe that's true. But I also really benefited from Tim Keller's ministry. I'm certain that there are things that he said and how he said it and his methods that I disagreed with. I'm sure that there were things that I said that he would have disagreed with if he even knew who I was. But I benefited so much from his apologetics and so much from so much of his theology and his marriage books.

And I'm just so grateful for that. And while I would never say that we should be ambiguous or we, should be cowardly in any way. I do wonder if God calls us to different methods depending upon the harvest in which he has placed us because you've got Tim Keller who is in Manhattan. Okay. And there is going to be a certain way that he is going to shepherd that flock and minister to those people that may be different without compromising on the truth someone, you know, in rural Texas. It might be a different method. And while we should never compromise on what the truth is, should never be unafraid, I think it's a little bit of a false choice what I see people doing, that it's either

Kirk or Keller. Well, I think that there are methods to both forms of evangelism and apologetics that are really helpful depending upon the generation and the demographics and the presuppositions of the people that you are preaching to. And you know what? I'm still thinking that out. So, John, I would love to hear your thoughts on that. I appreciate you asking. I guess I have a couple of thoughts. You know, with me, it always goes back to superheroes at some point. Like, I think about like the Avengers, okay?

There's Hulk. There's Captain America. There's Thor. There's people with different gifts called to different things as a whole were most effective. So I have as much grace as I can have for people, like you said, in a different context, in a different way if I think they're being biblically faithful and advancing the gospel. I want to have that. Now, I agree with you.

I've got so much love and gratitude for Keller. His book, Reason for God is amazing. I think his voice, like he was so pastoral. Like the times that I saw him, it's like he was going to speak truth, but tried to speak in a way with the kindness about him. You often miss. I thought he was amazing at that. Now, I've heard some criticism that he just didn't address certain issues and people in the church. Like, it's one thing to tell people, here's how you should vote.

That's one thing. It's another thing to talk about divisive issues within the church, like marriage and life, and let the church know why these are bivocally based issues, and we shouldn't shy away from that. I think maybe if there were some false. his way and there's a lot of angles to this, there were some people who were like, I didn't even know where the church stood on this. And then years later felt like, wait a minute, we hold this. Well, that shouldn't be the case. I think we need to be clear. So for me, I don't speak directly into politics. And I've taken some heat for this. But my model is my dad, people like Lee Strobel,

William Lane Craig. I'm an apologist and I'm an evangelist. Now, I'll speak, to ethical issues, but my lane is not to tell people how I think that they should vote. That's my conscience before the Lord. And so I think the way you frame that, I'm with you. I think there is, I think we can err on one side too far. But in our culture today, we have got to speak to the issues that matter profoundly and not shy away from that because the gospel does affect those issues. You agree with the way I framed that, or would you shape it differently? Totally.

And I mean, I am myself, like, pretty staunchly in one camp. Like, now, I probably didn't, I don't speak to politics quite as specifically as Charlie did. And I don't think that was a mistake on his part. I think that was totally his lane. And, like, he was so excellent at that. And I think my lane is more, hey, here are, the underlying issues that affect our politics. And so here's what the Bible says about gender. Here's what the Bible informs us to think about reproductive technology. You know, tricky stuff like

IVF and surrogacy and sperm and egg donation. Here's how we need to think about marriage. Here's how we need to think about complementarianism, egalitarianism, the patriarchy and how it affects our view of gender and even like the politics surrounding gender. So I want to start like with what's underneath that and what I think the Bible speaks clearly to. Now, that doesn't mean I'm not going to talk about immigration and justice issues and things because I am. I actually think the Bible speaks to those things. They might not be as clear cut as the creation order issues that we see in Genesis 1 through

three, gender marriage, the Amago Day, things like that. Looking for a simple way to stay rooted in God's Word every day. The Daily Bible Devotion app by Salem Media gives you morning and evening devotionals designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you. connected with scripture. Plus, you'll enjoy daily Bible trivia and humor, a fun way to learn and share a smile while growing in your faith. Get the Daily Bible Devotion app for free on both iOS and Android. Start and end your day with God's Word. Search for the Daily Bible Devotion app in the App Store or Google Play Store and download it today. But I do think that the Bible speaks to things like

immigration and crime. And so I will do my best to try to convince people from a biblical position what I think the best direction is. I typically don't get into the nitty gritty of immigration policy or Supreme court cases or things like that because that's just not my expertise. I'm looking more at what are the biblical principles that can inform how we think about culture and that is going to inform ultimately how we vote. I'm also not afraid to tell people how I think they should vote though. I love it, which is fair enough. That's your lane. So by the way, two conversations that I love that you did. I love your conversation with Trent Horn, Protestant versus Catholics, respectful, substantive.

I loved your conversation with Justin Gibney, which is probably two or three years ago. He's more left as a Christian and you differed respectfully. Those kind of dialogues, I think you are uniquely gifted to do that with substance and with kindness and with confidence that people are going to see the truth. So I'd encourage you to, for what it's worth keep doing that. But let me ask you this, Allie. What are you doing differently, if anything, after the assassination of Charlie Kirk and kind of this cultural moment we find ourselves in where people are like we might be on the cusp of a revival? Yeah.

There's attention because I feel that we're in a very unique and exciting moment for Christianity. Like, I just see that the harvest is so plentiful. And hopefully we have more workers who are like ready to go. I'm looking at my own life outside of just, okay. yeah, I'm reaching all these people with my podcast, but actually day-to-day discipleship is a lot harder than that. So I'm looking at my own life in addition to, you know, disciplining my three kids, which is my most important earthly calling. But also like within my church, I'm like, okay, am I doing what I can do within my local church to make disciples to take these young women under my wing as best I can? I can't

teach them everything at the age of 33, but I can teach them some things. and make sure that they know like what a life of godliness and being a godly wife and mother look like. I think all of us as Christians need to evaluate that. Not just what we're doing publicly because, you know, a lot of people will tell me, you're so courageous doing this. And it does take a level of courage, certainly to be public. But I am moved by the stories of people who reach out to me and said, I changed my life in this way.

I repented of this. I reached out to this person. And I heard this person say something that wasn't true and I pushed back against them in a gentle and kind way. I had a difficult conversation with my mom or my friend about this one issue and I feel equipped now to speak the truth. It takes a lot more bravery to look at someone's face and tell the truth than to look in a camera and tell someone's true and to tell the truth. And so I am looking at like my own in-person tangible discipleship. am I doing in addition to the public stuff, what I need to be doing on a day-to-day basis to make sure that these seeds that are planted to do what I can, to be a part of this harvest.

So yeah, that's really what I've been thinking of. And I want to repent of like any apathy that I have had in my own day-to-day life when it comes to discipleship and evangelism. And I don't think it's right for people who have a platform to kind of like to dismiss our day-to-day responsibility to share the gospel with people face to face and to serve people face to just because we have a platform where we're speaking truth. I think you should do both. It doesn't have to be one or the other, but you should do both.

And I don't think having a podcast is the same thing as the, you know, in-person things that we are also called to. Good call. I love it. I got one last question for you. I'm going to give you my answer and then I'll give you the last word. What is the challenge for the church moving forward? And here's my challenge. It's one word. I sent this out in a tweet. Anext last week. I just simply wrote, repent. That's it. Repent. And I mean out nonbelievers, repent and come to Jesus. I mean Christians repent. So if you've spoken an unkind word to someone, repent. If you're hooked on gambling or opioids or pot or pornography, repent. If you've been unkind to your spouse, repent,

and know that God forgives you and then tell at least one person. That's how revival happens. When instead of going, well, Ali Beth Stucky on her podcast, she's doing this and my pastor's doing that, I go, no, look in the mirror. Pray for the Lord to reveal in your heart. heart where he need to repent and I've I've done this and then I repent and I tell someone you know what that does that gives somebody else courage to do it in their own life and so I don't know if there's give me a revival in five years I can't control that you can't control that I'm going to keep doing what I can to move things forward obviously the spirit has to move but my challenge to anybody watching this is what you can do is repent and get right before the

Lord and share with somebody else. And you know what? I saw this week someone repent to someone else was like, I can't believe you had the courage to do that. And that person repented as well. That's how revival happens. I'll stop preaching, but tell me what is your encouragement and your word? And we'll end with that. That's so good. And so I don't know if I can offer a better one than what you just said because I think that is so true for every single one of us, whether you've been a Christian for 50 years or 50 minutes, all of us should be in that practice of confession and repentance. Gosh, she just reminds us of our need for Christ. And we always need to be reminded of that, such an important part of sanctification.

I don't know if I can boil it down to one word, but maybe I could use the word remember. And it could be used in a variety of ways. But one thing that Charlie said in a viral video that's circulated after he died, someone asked him, what do you want to be remembered for? And he said, courage for my faith. And I think all of us need to face our mortality and realize that we are not guaranteed the next breath. We are not guaranteed tomorrow.

What do you want to be remembered by? Do you want to be remembered for how much money you have, how many followers you have, how comfortable you were? Or do you want to be remembered for really, like, the only thing that echoes in eternity? And that is our obedience to Christ. And I'm just so encouraged by how God has used this awful tragedy, this evil, to bring glory to himself and bring others to him. And I just hope that for all of us Christians, that we live our lives in such a way that when we die, more people will hear the gospel. Because our lives were so marked by that, we're so saturated in scripture that people can't talk about you without talking about Jesus. Like Don Jr. when he was remembering Charlie, John Jr. is not a Christian.

And I think he admitted that. But he said in his speech, you know, my friend wanted to be remembered for his faith. So I'm going to talk about the martyrdom of Stephen. And when someone who is not a Christian literally has to talk about the gospel in order to talk about you, that's a good sign. That's a good sign of how you have lived your life. So I just pray in humility that that can be true for all of us. And I think if we're going to put one word on it, you know, remember is important. Repent is important, but gospel.

It's all about the gospel. That's our response. Friends, if you are not subscribed to Relatable by Ali Beth Stucky, make sure you subscribe. She has a new book out called Toxic Empathy. Very thoughtful, very challenging. I hope you read it.

I did a, I don't know if you saw this for now. I did a debate with a friend of mine. We kind of took different sides and just kind of fleshed out for and against it to help people think it through. But I read your book carefully. I think it's excellent. And I want my viewers to pick it up and think about it. Thank you.

And make sure you hit subscribe. We've got some other programs coming up just like this. All the best stuff. Okay, wait. I totally forgot. I totally forgot, Sean. I meant to say this at the beginning and I forgot. Okay, I do want to share with your audience because this could be really helpful for them.

So I do have a Christian Women's Conference, October 11th, Dallas, Texas called Share the Arrow's. It's a Christian Women's Conference. We've got Elisa Childers. We've got Katie Faust and we've got several other people. Abby Halberstadt, I'll be speaking, Francesca Badicelli, leading worship. It's looking like we're going to have 6,000 women there. Oh, wow. People are like so hungry for the truth, but we still have seats left.

So I would love for anyone in your audience, any women in your audience who want to come can get there. Maybe they're local in the area. Share the arrows.com. That's where they can get their tickets. In fact, Allie 20, they can press unlock, press and type in Alley 20. They'll get 20% off for your audience. So yeah, anyone, any Christian women out there who want to come, we would love to have you. 6,000.

That's incredible. You, Katie Fowles, Elisa. friend of mine, sounds like it's going to be wonderful. Thanks for taking the time to come on. Maybe we'll come back in six months or five years and talk about Lord, willing, the even bigger lives we've seen influenced because God is working today. Thanks for your time, Alley. Amen.

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