The Sean McDowell Show - Christians and Porn: Eye-Opening (and Disturbing) New Study

Episode Date: November 17, 2024

The Barna Research Group's latest study on pornography is eye-opening and profoundly disturbing. The percentage of Christians who view porn, and have no problem with it, is shocking. And this is only the beginning of their findings. In this video, Sean and Dr. Scott Rae analyze ad discuss the "Beyond the Porn Phenomenon" study in depth. Please watch and share this with others. READ: Beyond the Porn Phenomenon (https://shop.barna.com/products/beyond-the-porn-phenomenon?srsltid=AfmBOopcVt0pRYrmBH_vbpNZXNQjT-z8qrramtcPfHleQRjW5PMwuHIW) WATCH: Disturbing: How AI is Transforming Sex and P*rn (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxFSuip433Q&t=1424s) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: @sean_mcdowell Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org

What does the most recent data say about attitudes toward pornography, especially by Christians? How can the majority of Christians say that looking at porn can be sexually healthy? How can the church speak into this issue with relevance and with sensitivity? To answer these questions and more, Sean and I discuss a new Barna research study entitled Beyond the Porn Phenomenon. Where are we getting this ethic from? There's just not much room to contest this. Holy cow, that's devastating.

Not so fast. The reason somebody looks at porn is not because of just a lack of willpower. So the solution... I'm your host, Scott Ray. And I'm your co-host, Sean McDowell. This is Think Biblically from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. Sean, this is quite an interesting study. Some really alarming conclusions.

And you had a chance to participate as one of the panelists in this for how the church should respond to this. So, I mean, you've got sort of firsthand exposure to the data that they've uncovered here. But what exactly is the significance of this new study by Barna? So in 2016, my father's ministry, the Josh McDowell Ministry, commissioned and sponsored a study with the Barna Research Group. It was called the Porn Phenomenon. And they uncovered some pretty surprising findings. Of course, some things are not, but some things that are. For example,

among Gen Z at that time, people were far more likely, I think in the 50s versus the 30s, to say that not recycling is more immoral than looking at pornography. That was an interesting metric that came out around 2015, 2016. So Pure Desire Ministries now partnered with the Barner Group to do an eight to 10 year later in-depth study in light of, if you think of all the changes that have taken place with the Me Too movement, with even continued growth of social media, of course, artificial intelligence, what has now changed in the church and in the culture in terms of what we believe and how we practice as a society as it comes to pornography. And I think you're right.

I try to not use words like stunning and alarming because everything is stunning and alarming today to get clicks. This is when there are a few things that I have a hard time believing are true. I'm not saying I doubt the data. I'm just saying I can't believe this is so jarring. We need to wake up and respond to this. So if you had, if this really helped for our viewers and listeners here who may not have time to read this or wade through all the details, what's your, at the high level here, what do you think is the main takeaway from this? By the way, I do hope people will get a copy and read it.

It's very readable. It's not that long. I think every pastor needs to read it. I think every youth pastor needs to read it. I think there's that level of data. And some of the 30,000 foot takeaway is basically from eight years ago, in every demographic,

from whether it's racially or age, whatever it is, as a whole, things have not gotten better as it comes to pornography. In fact, they've gotten worse. That's a 30,000 foot reality. And so I think the bottom line is most churches are still not talking about this. Now, about three quarters of people said they want their churches to talk about it. And about 10% said their church is addressing it in a significant way, like 10%. Not very much. shows that many people who at least identify as Christians have been shaped far more in their view of sexuality from the culture as a whole and arguably pornography than from the scriptures and a biblical view of sex.

And how do you account for the, you know, I take it when you say it's getting worse, means the increase in number of viewers and maybe the increase in the sort of off-the-beaten-path type of content that they're being exposed to. I take it that's what you mean by it's getting worse. Yes. So I guess I can say it's getting – Both the frequency and the content. Yes. And some of that is because things like social media have become a new means by which people are at least accessing soft pornography and beyond in a way that maybe wasn't as prevalent 10 years ago. But I think with things like virtual reality and artificial intelligence – now, the study didn't get into depth on artificial intelligence because it's really emerging right now. I think the content is radically shifting as well. And here's

one of the things just to keep in mind, and we talked about this when we had Christopher Lindon a while ago, is there's a difference between in the past, if somebody wanted to go find pornography, they could find it. If you could imagine some kind of pornographic scene, whatever that may be, you search it, somebody has already made it. Now with artificial intelligence, people can just think it, plug it in, and it's created in ways that it's now difficult to distinguish what's true and what's not. So numbers and quality, for lack of a better term, have both, I think, arguably gotten worse. And actually, we're coining new terms

for some of the things that are coming out now. That's right. Sextortion, for example, is the newest form of extortion. So, you know, and that's, you know, who knew that we would have, you know, deep fakes that would be putting people's faces on sexual images with the kind of frequency that's happening now? That's right, yeah. All right.

Are there any positive takeaways from this? Oh, so that's an interesting question. I would say positive takeaway is that there's at least a number of Christians who want churches to address this. That's positive. That's at least some number of Christians who want churches to address this. That's positive. That's at least some people saying we need help. It's the elephant in the room that we're not addressing. We're also seeing on positive takeaways. Let me see if I can find this right here.

Related to Gen Z, a really interesting potential shift that's here, potentially. The study says Gen Z are slightly more inclined to perceive porn as bad for society, with half expressing the sentiment in contrast to 40%, two in five of millennials. That's a 10% jump. So they said, you know, it could be that we are gathering momentum for a pendulum swing back to a more critical stance. That could be the case, that we now have a generation that's been raised in such a sexualized culture that there's an awakening, at least among a not insignificant percentage of Gen Zers. That's one of the positive things.

Okay. Anything else in here that just got you off guard? Oh, my goodness. Some of the specific examples that we'll get to, I just, I mean, in some ways, it's hard to imagine that it's really true. I had to read it a few times. Now, the study makes a distinction between, like, self-identifying Christians, practicing Christians. You know, so, like, somebody from Latter-day Saint would say that they're Christian, but a practicing Christian would be more evangelical community. So one of the studies, one in three – I'm sorry, three in five Christians tell Barna they agree a person can regularly view pornography and live a sexually healthy life. Now, those are self-identified Christians, but 62%, I mean, that is incredible to me that that many don't see a tension between viewing pornography and living out the Christian

life. I wonder if they just see a tension between doing pornography in their spiritual formation as opposed to viewing pornography in their sex life. Is that a possibility? So this study doesn't probe down into, and I would like to know why there's that bifurcation that's there. Because that's the question that just sort of screams out at you. I think it's possible that they're able to just separate and say, well, you know, as long as there's not actually a third party who is here and I'm just viewing it, it can enhance my life. I'm sure there's some ways that people can say,

cause there's still sex with my wife, but still I'm going, where are we getting this ethic from? And I think there could be other things that are contributing to it as well. Like we've just become so desensitized in such a pornified society. It's ubiquitous. Even Christians don't see that many times. All right. get a handle on how many people, Christian and non-Christians, view porn and how significant

is the porn industry? So here's, I mean, this is a new stat I'm going to be using. It's not really a stat. It just says, in the U.S. alone, the top three porn sites, which they don't mention, thank you, receive more web traffic annually than Netflix, Amazon, Pinterest, LinkedIn, and TikTok combined. Now, just TikTok is so ubiquitous. If it was as much or more than that, it should be alarming. But you've got Amazon, Netflix, Pinterest,

and you're talking about web traffic, and it's more than all of them combined. I think it is far larger and more prevalent than we remotely understand in the church and outside of the church. So, I mean, it's fair to say that I think it is still a multi-billion dollar industry. Oh, my goodness. That dwarfs a lot of other industries.

In the US alone. Now, here's one thing that might help. They said all generations have witnessed a significant increase in daily engagement over the past decade since the 2015 research. Overall, over half of practicing Christians, so these aren't self-identifying Christians, half of practicing Christians report viewing pornography compared to two in three non-Christians. Now, how often they view it, once a month versus daily, that's where it breaks down. But at least with some regularity, over half of Christians who otherwise practice their faith are viewing

pornography. So, Sean, do you think this is just a case where, you know, the average Christian thinks this is a no harm, no foul type of thing? I think it's a few things. I think Christians in their heart of heart know that they shouldn't be looking at pornography. But what's true for probably all of us, and I have to watch this in myself, is rather than compare myself to God's biblical standard, I compare myself to somebody else. I'm not as bad as that guy. And then I feel justified in it. And so pornography is easy to say, I don't look at it that much. I don't look at as bad of pornography as others. I'm not hurting anybody. My guess is that's the most common response. And so I think that's driving. It's a comparison. Like, this is a reality. It's

so prevalent. And then voices come in and can say, you know, I deserve this because my husband or my wife. Like, I think that's probably most Christians just have a sense of a defeated life and don't really have the tools and sense of urgency to conquer it. All right. So let's contest the no harm, no foul idea. What does the data tell us about how porn affects people? Oh, so there's a ton of data in this that walks through how it affects people. There's a whole chapter on that particular part, if I recall. There's big chapters on this. And the report talks about how it affects not only our soul, like our minds and how we think, but it also affects our body. In fact, they interviewed

some medical doctors to talk about how it rewires the brain and the synapses when you look at pornography that affects the way that when you translate to a real person who doesn't match up with the images, I've biologically wired myself and desensitized myself to not respond to the person in the flesh. That's one thing that they talk about. Here's one example they gave. They said in 2015, a strong majority, 79%, defined an image depicting sexual intercourse as definitely pornography. Now this has weakened to 67% holding this view. So in one sense, it's like, wait a minute, 79% used to think that was pornographic. Now it's two-thirds.

So from four out of ten to two out of three. Well, what's happened? We've become desensitized as a culture that's an example of how it affects us and they go on and on here i mean i i marked up all these pages about how it affects us here negatively i think the data is out and i think it's really hard for somebody to argue that pornography does not affect relationships it does not affect our brains it doesn't affect our view of others. I don't think there's any way somebody can make that case in light of the data that there's not empirically deducible. Let me give you one, one more, if I can find it right here. I, Oh, here it is. Okay. So, uh, here's, here's what they write said many men view their partner's use of porn as sexually stimulating

or the marker of a partner's high libido in general. So men view their partner's porn use differently than women do. It could also be that some of the women who regularly use porn do so for their partner's benefit. Women are 10% more likely to say they view porn to set the mood with a spouse or romantic partner, whatever the reason. The fact that men tend to view their partner's porn use as positive,

while women overwhelmingly view it as negative, can undoubtedly contribute to misunderstanding and relational breakdown. So looking at pornography shapes men to think, oh, women enjoy it. They want this. It affects their thinking, affects their relationship, affects how they treat somebody without really realizing it because they've been pornified in a sense by what they see. I mean, this book goes on and on and on in empirical studies that affect the way we treat each other. We see the world brain development consistently for the negative. Is this, from what you've been able to ascertain, is this data on the way it affects, the way it rewires the brain, is that something new or is that something we've known about for a while? I guess it depends on what you mean by for a while. I mean, I've been talking about this a couple of decades and probably people before me have been talking about it. But as you go back, as I understand it,

there was beliefs that the brain was a little bit more solidified in adolescence and didn't really change. And we've learned that the brain's not really fully formed until the mid or upper 20s. Lots of plasticity to it. And still has plasticity over time that we can adapt. And so, yeah, we'll leave it at that.

Okay. All right. That's, yeah. I think what I want our viewers and listeners to be aware of is just how overwhelming the data is on this. And there's just not much room to contest this on the analytics part of it because the harm is becoming really clear in ways that it hasn't before at the same time when the prevalence of it is increased and the attitudes toward it have shifted, I think, pretty dramatically. I think a generation ago, I'm not sure you would have found that 55% of Christians think that you can be sexually healthy and view porn regularly. That's a huge generational shift. And I don't think a generation ago you would have found that almost half of practicing Christians say they're comfortable with their current use of porn. I mean, in my experience, everybody who viewed porn was uncomfortable with it.

That's correct. Non-Christians going back. That's right. And today it's become, I just don't know what, besides the ubiquity of it and our desensitization to it, what has changed that would cause people to ignore the biblical teaching on lust and on sexual fantasy, on committing adultery in the mind, all those things that would have changed so much that this number, this kind of percentage of people say they're comfortable

with any use of it, much less their current use. This is one of the things that stunned me, and I honestly don't know exactly what to do it. When it says 49% of practicing Christians who are porn users are comfortable with it, at first, in one sense, if somebody said to me, are you comfortable with your porn use? I'd say, sure, because I don't look at it, so I'm comfortable. So I thought, well, maybe this is just all Christians, whether they use it or not. This is specifically Christians who view pornography. So that tells me one things that shifted a little bit is I said in their heart of hearts, a lot of Christians know that it's wrong.

They're comfortable, like they're not motivated to change it. But I think maybe I need to ramp up a little bit so people really understand, do you know how damaging pornography is to the spirit, to the soul, to society, to relationships? Do you know how much it violates God's design for sex? It's important we don't do so in a way that shames people. Because I think a lot of the reason people are living defeated lives, they feel like if this is the worst sin ever, then I can't talk about it. So I don't want to shame people. But as I read this, one of my takeaways was, I need to ramp up the sense of urgency that half of practicing Christians are comfortable looking at pornography, holy cow. That's devastating.

We need to light a fire in them and help them have the tools and understanding of how just, I think, cancerous this is to the body and soul. Well, I think what it does reveal is that we've just bifurcated parts of our private life out from under the lordship of Christ. And the fact that our churches are not addressing it, I think, is an indictment on our churches for just not wanting to go there. But, you know, if we said, you know, 49% of Braxton Christians are comfortable with their current adulterous relationships, you know, we'd be all over that. And what it reminds me of is there, I think in many of our churches,

there are acceptable sins and there are not so acceptable sins. That is true. Or maybe sins that you can confess in the church, but you can't, and others that you can't. And this is definitely one that I think still is in that category of unacceptable sins that bring a sense of shame and the notion that you could actually talk about this more openly with anybody, not a group, but just any individual in the church, I think, is still, I think, sort of way out of bounds for most people. I agree. I definitely agree.

All right. So this may be one of the things I think the study talked about, which surprised me, I didn't expect this, was how sex and porn are different. That seems to be a really important point. What's the point they're making there? So it's funny because I've thought about this, but what they do in a report like this is they interview experts in different areas, doctors and writers. And I had a chance to be interviewed in the back of it in a different section. And they're interviewing an author named Sheila Ray Gregor. And here's what she says.

She says, porn and sex are often seen as the same thing. So the desire for porn is equivalent to the desire for sex. The idea is if a guy wants porn, but he gets enough sex with his wife, he'll be able to withstand pornography. We'll come to more of that in a minute. Exactly. Yes. Good, good. He said, but porn and sex are not the same thing. They're polar opposites. Sex is a deep knowing in an intimate experience. God made it to be mutual and intimate. Porn is using someone for your own sexual gratification where they don't matter at all. It's completely self-focused. So, sex in the Bible, and of course in the Hebrew, yada, is a sense of knowing. Adam knew his wife Eve. Abraham knew his wife Sarah.

So to describe sexual intimacy, it's a relational term. Right. And it's a deep, intimate knowing. So there's no physical sex in heaven, but we would argue it's a signpost of knowing somebody and being known in a way we will know God and others in a deeper sense in heaven. It's real intimacy. That's contrast with pornography, which is somebody's at a distance. You're objectifying them for your own pleasure. That's rather than loving somebody.

That's using somebody. So I came up with a list. I need to like better refine this, but pornography is self-focused. Sex is meant to be other-focused. Pornography is individual. Typically, some might say they watch it with their friends, but it's an individual experience watching somebody where sex is meant to be relational and mutual with a spouse. Pornography is passive. Of course, honestly, many people are masturbating to pornography, but it's passive with that individual, where sex is active. Pornography is taking from somebody. Sex is giving. And so when I was reading this, I thought there is such a diametrically opposed difference between porn and sex.

And I think a lot of people, especially Christians, haven't really thought through that distinction and say, well, look at porn. It's a part of sex. It helps sex. Yeah, It's just on a continuum. It's on a continuum because it's a failure in part for us to teach exactly what God's design is for sex and how pornography corrupts and twists that good design. But yeah, we say it's the difference in kind, not the difference in degree. Exactly. Well said. All right. So this is back to the point that you made a little bit earlier about marriage and porn use.

Because I think there's a misconception out there that marriage is just this automatic fix for porn use and that once you're married and have regular sexual relations, there's just no need for it. I take it, if I remember correctly, the study says, eh, not so fast. Yeah, this surprised me. I mean, I've studied this stuff for years and I just don't recall seeing a direct difference between people who are single

and who are married and porn use. It's usually men of a certain age or women. And it was only about 10% less for people who are married. And of course, depending on how you gauge this, which tells us, in other words, getting married doesn't fix the issue at play for people who are looking at pornography. It doesn't fix it.

Now you could say, okay, singles tend to be younger. So maybe younger people struggle more than older people. Like there's ways to try to decipher this, but there's no, marriage itself doesn't fix if there's a deeper issue at play. In fact, in many cases, if you're looking at pornography first and you bring that into your marriage, it actually makes it worse. There's a lack of trust and other things

that it undermines in the marriage, especially in a Christian marriage. But that kind of surprised me. I expected at least would be like maybe half or something like that. Like this would help significantly, barely made a statistical difference. Yeah, although I think that's like a major dose of reality for people who think that marriage is just gonna fix this, which suggests I think that there are deeper issues at play than just sexual or physical ones. And that's exactly right. And that's why I would tell my daughter, I would say, if there's somebody struggling with pornography, do not marry him. Period. Until that is resolved

sufficiently. Now, of course, you can marry somebody who's wrestled with that in different ways in the past and got healing. Of course, God redeems and transforms. That's no question about it. But if this person is currently viewing it with any regularity and doesn't have a level of victory in their life, do not marry this person because you are bringing that into the marriage and arguably going to make things worse. Right. Now, I think another misconception that the study points out, and I think this is pretty widespread too, that you can just quit. And by sheer force of will, you can, by summoning up the willpower, you can just stop cold turkey and be done with it. Right?

What does the data say about that? So when I give a talk on pornography, I walk through like three or four myths. I'll quit later. It doesn't affect me. I'm not hurting anybody. And reading this, I thought, you know what? This is the new myth I'm going to add.

And they say it right here. They said, a research reveals that 64% of Christians agree that with enough willpower, a person can overcome porn addiction on their own. And of course, they walk through and hear why willpower doesn't solve it. Why? The problem, the reason somebody looks at porn is not because of just a lack of willpower. So the solution is not just more willpower. There's deeper spiritual beliefs. There's relational brokenness. There's other things at the root that are the chief cause. Now, of course, we need some willpower and discipline to resist all sorts of things we shouldn't do, but the root of the problem is not a lack of willpower. So when Christians preach this, people get a sense of like, I'm defeated and I've tried and I'm weak,

and maybe the Christian narrative doesn't work because I can't pull up my own bootstraps and fix this. So no, amount of willpower is going to solve this. That's where grace comes in. That's where accountability comes in. That's where love and care and dealing with the deeper woundings that take place. In fact, you might say, porn use is not the root of the problem. It's the fruit of the problem.

What's the fruit? Spiritual, relational brokenness and hurt. And so willpower can't just fix that. In fact, if you stop looking at it by willpower and leave some of those deeper brokenness in place, it's probably gonna manifest itself in another unhealthy fashion. Yeah.

Yeah, so this is something that, the admission that people need help with this is actually a pretty encouraging sign. And I think there's help available, there's help in our churches, but our churches have to be better prepared to deal with this. I suspect there's more than a handful of pastors who would be a bit flummoxed by what to do with congregants who come to them to say, you know, I'm struggling

with this. How can you help me? So what advice does a study have for churches and church leaders to be able to speak into this in a way that's not shaming, but that's relevant, but that's also sensitive to where they are? So if I can make one point before we get to that, i read a study like this i'm asking myself what they cover and maybe what i wish that they had covered on our weekly cultural update it was it was a week i think you were out rick langer filled in we talked about a new york times study about a midwestern college and i don't remember the numbers it was over half of students who expressed having a sexual encounter involved choking. And I read that and was like, oh my goodness. I think I missed that one. I remember we didn't talk about that, whether you listened to it or not. I think you were recovering with your health during that period. And I got an email from somebody that was like,

I can't believe you're surprised by this. I'm 21 years old. This is ubiquitous. That's an example of how looking at pornography affects the expectations and practice. There's no other way to explain how normative that is apart from viewing and sharing pornography. I was just surprised the study didn't address that and other ways sexual behaviors have changed. Other things I won't mention here just because the study didn't address that and other ways sexual behaviors have changed. Other things I won't mention here just because the nature of the audience affected by what people see in pornography. And what can people do? The first thing is just to get educated on this issue. It's hard to rank these things, but to me, in terms of top five issues a church needs to address, sexuality as a whole and pornography is

there especially when it comes to the next generation especially with these numbers like they are and in one of things Barna has always said is accurate information gives us power to diagnose this correctly so I mean I have no stake in this I don't work for Barna I volunteer my time I was happy to but I'd really encourage people to pick up a copy of this, work it through, study it, pay attention to it. Knowledge is the beginning. It'll dispel a lot of myths, but also open you up to go 54% of practicing Christians are looking at pornography. This is my congregation. This is my church. This is all hands on deck. So that's

number one. Second is every church has to have some kind of practical support group. If the church doesn't, if they only teach from the stage and doesn't have a practical support group, and that could be for people struggling with gambling, with alcoholism, other kinds of addictions. Of course, these are called celebrate recovery at certain churches where you have that accountability and biblical teaching and love and just sense of grace that's built into somebody. You can't minister to somebody apart from that. Third is I think churches need to have counselors set up who are trained in this. I counsel a lot of students, but I also know when I'm at my depth, when somebody starts talking about a level of addiction, certain kinds of pornography, a little beep goes off that says, Sean, you're out of your

depth. I need a professional counselor. So churches need to have counselors either there or they work within the community, specifically biblically trained to address this. The other thing church can do is just have resources, have resources on this. When somebody comes into the church, I have books that are there that just shows we're not afraid of this issue. We're willing to talk about it. And that might turn some people away, but I think that would invite a lot more people to have the best books, the best studies, best websites.

Pure Desire Ministry sponsored this. Everything I know about them is just only a positive, wonderful ministry. Nick, I'm gonna say his name right. Nick Stumbo is the executive director for this and just has an amazing story. So I would look up Pure Desire Ministries. I think they're doing good work. The last thing is stories are powerful to people.

When people hear stories of somebody willing to share their testimony, this is I was here. God changed me. I'm out of it. here's what I did. That gives people hope and tools to feel like I can do that as well. And you've written on this too, right? You have books in print on this? I don't have a whole book on pornography. I wrote a book called Chasing Love, which is a biblical view of sexuality. And then at the end, there's a chapter on pornography. So a lot of countering the lies of pornography is developing a biblical view of sex,

love, marriage, relationships. That's a helpful compliment, I think, with something that's so data-driven here. That'd be a helpful one, called chasing love. I won't argue with that. Okay, you may. I will do your shameless self-promotion for you. Fair enough.

Anything else you want to add to this before we close this conversation? I think we covered it. I guess the last thing I would say is this is – I think the other positive thing is I think the church has an opportunity here. artificial intelligence and other technology, we're just going to see more brokenness in relationships and self-image and all the effects of pornography. We have a chance to lean in because there's a lot of people who are willing to talk about this who need help and just model the goodness of God's design for sex and marriage and distinguish ourselves from the wider culture. Here, here. I think that's a good drop the mic moment and we'll end it there. We hope you enjoyed our conversation.

Be sure to subscribe if you're listening to this on Think Biblically. Be sure to subscribe to that podcast if you're viewing this on Sean's YouTube channel. Be sure and subscribe to that too as well. Hope you enjoyed the conversation on a really important topic. We encourage you to get the Barna research called Beyond the Porn Phenomenon and look into that data for yourself. See you next time.