The Sean McDowell Show - Deadpool’s Creator Rob Liefeld on Christ, Comics, and Culture

Episode Date: May 27, 2025

What happens when a comic book legend sits down to talk faith? I got to interview Rob Liefeld, creator of Deadpool, Cable, and many iconic Marvel characters, to explore the intersection of faith, creativity, and culture. He's had a massive impact on my life and I was so excited to speak to him. Today, he'll talk about his journey in the comic book world and the creation of Deadpool, how his Christian faith has shaped his life and career, what it’s like navigating Hollywood as a believer and why storytelling matters and how pop culture can open doors for deeper conversations about truth.*Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf)*USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM)*See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK)FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowellTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=enInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/Website: https://seanmcdowell.org

Rob Liefeld is one of the most influential comic book artists and creators over the past four decades. Perhaps best known for co-creating the characters Cable and Deadpool, drawing some of the most iconic Marvel characters, such as X-Men and Spider-Man, he's here to talk about his love for comics, his take on the culture of comics and superhero movies, and how he thinks about the intersection

of comics and faith. No one got into comics to make money. I got into comics just to pay the rent. This is what I could do. People always go, what was your inspiration for Cable and Deadpool? I'm like paying the rent, paying the rent, paying the rent. Was there a moment or reason why like you became a Christian? I have seen miracles. I have felt the Lord move in my life. Can a Christian watch Deadpool? Ha! I love this! Okay, let's go. This is, in its purest form,

the most R-rated book we can give our kids, and we do it every day. So it seems like the violence is very... it's depicted very differently than it would be in the Bible. So make sense of that for me. See, I... Okay, so this is where I... Whoa! Totally disagree!

How do we think about thinking biblically about comics? But you gotta, I'm gonna shock your audience with this one. Rob, I've been looking forward to this for a long time. I pulled my boys out of school. They wanted to meet you. I have here, I have kept from 1991, the first appearance of Deadpool. I bought

it off the stands. I love it. I love it. And read it. I've got the first appearance of Youngblood also was that 91 95 92. That was 92. That was the next year. Cable's first appearance. Yes. Bottom line you and Todd McFarlane had been my favorite artists. So when you agreed to sit down and talk man. This is a treat I love to talk. I'm happy to be here excited Well, let's before we get to some of the questions my audience would specifically have kind of how like comics and faith intersects You're the star behind Deadpool Just take me back to like why you love comics some of your earliest memories because I could tell my story

Sure sure of like keeping change and going on Wednesdays when comic books came out and like buying the ones I could afford tell me your story. I'm a little older than you and and so so comic stores were later for me but so my dad was a Baptist minister and he was at a church in Anaheim. My grandfather was the senior pastor and he was whatever, the vice president pastor, whatever you call it, I never really understood it. But, so I was raised in the church,

which meant a lot of Bible, a lot of church, Wednesday night church, which killed me, because I'm like, the six million dollar man's on. Why can't I, and I learned how to manipulate and warm up the thermometer for the episodes where he battled Bigfoot um, so I mean look the Bible in Bible stories and then Comic books of the Bible. Mmm were presented to me and I was like

wait a second Samson died David died like what's up with these heroes of the Bible and they're all dying. Like the story ends. This sucks because over here in these other comic books, the like monthly adventures of at that point was Richie Rich and Casper. I didn't have a whole lot of options and then at the barbershop, there were some Marvel comic books and there was

an issue of Fantastic Four. It was Fantastic Four. I tell everybody 147 Changed my life and I was like, oh my gosh. I have to have this and the barber Fred sweet guy Said I'll trade you I just need comics for customers like you and I drove home and I got to Richie Rich Nick Casper and Got this Marvel comic and so now I'm all about comic books and my parents, whenever I tried to buy them with them, they're like, put that back.

My dad felt like he facilitated this trade, but when we'd go to 7-Eleven or the liquor store on the corner, where, look, it was a liquor store, but it had potato chips and soda and everything my family would grab on the way home from church, okay? And they'd be like, you put that comic book down. Like my mom thought they were from the devil, right? So I'm now having to go, what do you call it?

I'm now having to go kind of undercover. Like undercover, yeah. But same with you. It's about quarters and nickels and dimes and as much change as I could save up. So I started buying the comics and hiding them. But I accumulated a lot because I got like a dollar a week and that's for comics, okay, for my allowance.

And then I started mowing lawns and doing chores, the kind of stuff that my kids never did, which is funny because, you know, all all those it's like a lost art but Everything I did was about comic books. My parents would give me love lunch money I would save it so that I could buy more comic books on the way home. I would walk to school I would pass all of those places on my walk to school And so on the way home copy of Avengers copy of X-Men copy of fantasy 4 so same with you It's just it was all off creaky old spinner racks

in like liquor marts, grocery stores. Cause that's the other thing, that comics are nowhere today. You have to go to a specialty store, but they were everywhere. Every one of these gas stations would have had comic books when I was growing up. So cheap entertainment and I really liked the art.

And like I said, there were also Bible comics and really well drawn. Like I see people do illustrated Bible comics today and they're nowhere near as well as the artists they were hiring back in the 70s to pull these off. But man, I could not have been more just engaged because Samson had superheroes. It seemed like David was kind of a superhero. Josh was, I could not have been more just engaged because Samson had superheroes. It seemed like David was kind of a superhero. Josh was, I'm big on the judges, big on the judges. And so, that was a natural, Samson was really my entry to, you know, I remember when Hercules in the comics in Marvel, I was like, is this Samson? Oh, Hercules, okay, Greek gods, got it. And of course my parents, those aren't real, I got it, mom.

I understand. I can disassociate. Also that show you're watching, those aren't real doctors. Okay, like, you figured out young, but yeah, I think there was this idea and all the stuff I liked was really clean, but they really were scared, but I think I eventually overwhelmed them.

So I'm not sure how that stacks up with your experience. Oh, that's really interesting. So, we didn't have comic book stores where I was growing up. In the mountains of San Diego, a little town called Julian, famous for apple pies. We'd only go an hour, hour and a half down to San Diego occasionally. So, it was like a comic book store every four months. It was like a big treat for me. It was the drug store that also had ice cream.

It was a spinning rack and it was like maybe the new Wolverine or X-Men or Hulk would come out or Spider-Man and I would just show up every Wednesday. Partly ticked because on the rack they'd be a little bit bent. I'm like, oh man, I can't have this great condition. But my dad, you know my dad is an outspoken Christian apologist, conservative, but he'd let me listen to non-Christian music. He'd let me get comic books. Like he just chose what hills to die on. Now there's probably some episodes if he had seen it

would have been like, yeah, I'm not sure this is a great idea. But as a whole, I think gave me certain freedom that I look back and appreciate. So was there a moment where they're just like, okay, we get it, Rob, you love comic books, you could be sneaking something else. We get it. I think that look, I so so I love her to death. My sister is seven years older than me. And she was more of she was more of the rock and roll. I think she put my parents through the paces. She was like ACDC, all of that stuff

that was coming in the late 70s, early 80s. And so I would drive everywhere with her and listen to her rock and roll music. And to this day, all the bands that I was exposed to when I was five or six are because she was already listening to them in her room. And my parents, I think she kind of tested them in such ways that it's like you said,

well, let's just give him his comic books because he's not pushing the envelope as much as his sister is. So I think they relented eventually because she was really the wild child of our family. And she knows this. And eventually she cooled off, but I think they were like, well, let's just...

And I was drawing from them. I was constantly opening up comic books and then taking a drawing pad and drawing from them. I was constantly opening up comic books and then taking a drawing pad and drawing from them. So I think my dad saw that I had some ability and I think that he told my mom like look this is something that he really it he's indulged in so let's give this over to him because I was really a good kid I say it on my my own podcast all the time I'm super boring. I have no like terrible indulgence.

I'm super boring, super laid back. And I just, you know, I think they were like, let's give this to them. Later on, when I did discover comic stores, then it ramped up again, because the comic stores of 1980 in Orange County were still manned and owned by long-haired hippie people. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

And there would be smoke, a lot of pot, so the first one I ever went to, my dad drove me there. Oh man. And he was like, I'm not comfortable with this place. I'm like, can I just get some comics? We came here. He's like, I'll be in the car, but. And I mean, literally, like,

they all looked like they were Leonard Skinner the entire like, like they all long hair, mustache, glasses, headband. And and and my dad's like, I'm not sure if I'm OK with you going to these places. OK, well, here's the deal. As you know, they can't police you all the time. And then I decided, well, I can ride my bike and I would do these two hour rides on my bike. That there was a comic store down in Huntington Beach.

It's not there anymore. But there was one in Fountain Valley. And I would just go, well, I can bike all day, get there, use my money, get these comic books. Because now I have comic book stores. There's tons of comic books. I have to have these. And they're still reasonable.

They're 50 cents, right? So now, you know, your dollar's not stretched as much. But so it's like at some point they lost the ability to police all that I was into. But I think they, look, my dad would say to me, Rob, I'm not into any of this sci-fi fantasy stuff. And he used to mispronounce the word drama and call it drama. And also my mom would always talk about washing the clothes. I'm like, where do you wash clothes? Don't we wash them?

So she had her Midwestern thing. But my dad took me to see Star Wars the summer of 1977. I was begging based on all the, and he said, we have to go two towns away. I can't be seen taking you to this movie. Are you serious? Yeah, so it was really strict. So I mean, really strict.

And so we went to see Star Wars in the city of Orange and we lived in Anaheim. And then when Raiders of the Lost Ark, same thing. Like he was just, because the judgment of the congregation who was a lot of blue haired old ladies. And you know, oh, did you hear it? Mr. Pastor Leifeld was at a movie theater. And that's an even rougher was my mom loved movies.

So when they couldn't find a babysitter for me, we were going to see Kramer versus Kramer. We were seeing all these movies with nudity and cursing. And I'm like, oh, so this is what mom and dad do when they're not telling me not to get comics, right? So I was hilarious. I'd be like, wow, I this is what mom and dad do when they're not telling me not to get comics, right? So I was hilarious. I'd be like, wow, I got to go see the R rated movie with my, and again, three cities away

because Paul couldn't be seen going to see these movies. So there's a lot of messaging going on. But look, like I said, we were constantly, I felt like I was going to church my whole life. Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesdays. Oh, brutal. I mean, it's just brutal. was going to church my whole life. Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesdays. Oh, brutal. I mean, it's just brutal. Always going to church.

But my dad was a really sweet, kind guy. He just was very concerned with, you know, the rigidity of the church. But when we came out of Star Wars and I'm like running to the car, I was nine years old, and I'm brandishing a fake lightsaber and we got in the car, I'll never forget, he starts it up and he looks over at me

and he goes, hey, don't be praying to the force, okay? He goes, that's not real, you understand? I said, dad, I know it's not real, come on. But he's like, I see the sway that these are already having on my son. So they knew that little Robbie had a healthy escape imagination. And look, my mom laughed at me when I was a teenager. I said, I'm gonna had a healthy escape imagination. And look, my mom laughed at me when I was a teenager.

I said, I'm gonna make a living at this. And she's like, just laugh. Cause I think to her generation, it's like no one makes a living drawing comic books. I'm like, mom, I've met them. I've gone to these stores. I've ridden a bike for two hours to meet these comic book people.

They make money doing this. Not to get rich. It's been kind of a thread among comic creators lately on social media, because no one got into comics to make money. I got into comics just to pay their rent. This is what I could do, because I'll tell you what I wasn't going to do, anything smart.

I tell people I wasn't going to be a doctor. I'm not going to be a lawyer. I'm not going to be a scientist, OK, if I'm not drawn, it's over. Like, so I knew I was all in if I didn't do this. And so my mom, I think when she realized I've been hired, what do you mean you've been hired by Marvel Comics? What do you mean? You know, I'm like, that's why the checks

have Spider-Man on them. Mom, those are actual real checks. Oh, that's cool. You know, so it's now they have Mickey Mouse on them. Very sad. But the thing is, the thing is, you know, it was a very early life, life, young, very young life of kind of winning them over to I think, like, again, I mean, I get hired when I'm 18 years old. And I think obviously, thank

God for me, and everybody else, because because I'm not sure I could have stood the scrutiny of, why aren't you doing something like blank and blanks kid? Why are you doing something like Harriet's kid or Shirley's kid? I'm like, I got it, mom. You're embarrassed to your son. I draw comic books. I get it.

I get it. I love that. So, you know, in some ways I get like the rigidity piece. I'm a pastor. I got to keep this up, but I love hearing that So I, you know, in some ways I, I get like the rigidity piece. I'm a pastor. I got to keep this up, but I love hearing that your dad's like, but I kind of want to lean into this. I'm going to take you three towns away. Like she saw it. There's a lot of stars are here. People are just like, no, I won't allow it, which causes a rebellion. The other direction. I mean, I, I have memories being at my grandparents in Massachusetts in Cape

Cod. And we're just hanging out for a week with nothing to do. So I was like, I got to make money because there's a comic book store. I could walk a couple miles to. And so we started knocking on people's doors. I was like, I'll clean up your backyard. If you give me five bucks, I do that. We go find golf balls, dig them out of the pools.

Yeah. And I clean one, sell them back to golfers for a dollar, go to the comic store and we try to buy them. I'd also try to draw, but I could not draw, Rob. I can't, I don't have that gene. It's just the way it goes. I'd love to see those drawings. I wish I had them, I just show them.

Like, how much training did you have versus natural? So Star Wars comes back into play here because you had to be alive in 1977 to understand what impact that movie had on kids my age. And we were just not prepared for the movies that were coming out prior to that. So you were 10, because you're born in 67. So I'm nine.

Well, I don't turn 10 until October of 77. That comes out Memorial Day, summer. I'm nine years old. And once I start seeing Star Wars, I tell people it's no big deal that I saw it 33 times that summer because it became my babysitter. There was a theater, everybody wanted to see it again and again and again.

And to see it now, obviously, it doesn't look like it did then, but the Cantina scene and some other scenes, me and my buddies would be like, you look to the left, I'll look center. What can we see? Because what people don't understand is you walked out and there was no repeating it You didn't go you didn't have a DVD. You didn't have a DVD and a VCR There was nothing online you had to carry with you your memories, but my buddies and I

We would routinely get together and everyone be like, hey, let's all draw and these are like my just normal buddies that I rode bikes with and everyone would be like, hey, let's all draw. And these are like my just normal buddies that I rode bikes with, skateboards, hung out with. And so we'd all get, and we all, one guy goes, let's all draw Chewbacca. And so Sean, at the end, I'm like, oh, mine looks like Chewbacca. They don't know what they're doing.

Like, because you're drawing from memory, okay? We're just, you know? And I was like, oh, maybe I have a gift. Maybe I can, like you said, that's when you realize, when you separate and your friend's like, wow, yours is really good. How'd you do that? I'm like, I don't know how I did it,

but yours looks like a broom. Yours, I'm not sure what that is. And yours, yeah, those lines don't even connect. So you just already understand that you've got this capacity to draw. And then I drew all the time and at our church, because I was so bored, I would draw on all the hymnals and, and because I'm like, oh, there's blank pages here. So those started becoming my canvas. And I got told by a lot of the older stop that your father would be so embarrassed. I'm like, can you leave me alone?

I'm doing something really great here in the back of this. But I'd put them back, and my sister will tell you that when, it was around the time of the X-Force and Youngblood, I think I said that I drew in those huminals, there was a Sunday, so this is going back 30 some years, but people showed up and stole the huminals that had my drawings in the back.

So I would love to have some of those myself. But yeah. So if anybody's watching and they have those like hello. Well, I've seen stuff like I did comic books for my students in junior high like my, my, my, I drew comic books with me and my buddies in them and I'd go and I'd print them up maybe 20 copies. And it was about 10 years ago.

Someone goes, Hey, is this legit? I'm like, Ron Johnson is selling my comic book. I gave him like on eBay, right? So you're like, oh, that's cool That's cool. I don't even have one but I that's you know, there he is and It's just funny cuz some of this stuff it does factor back in and I wish I had all of it cuz oh, you know It's pretty fun. I'm sure now you mentioned at 18 you got hired Yeah, I've seen early pictures of you with Todd McFarlane Jim Lee, Stan Lee, early pictures. Tell me about what that was like getting hired, what you did, what that meant to you.

Well, comics is a grind. I mean, once you jump into it, you got to tell a story on a, and it was more enforced back then. You know, you're gonna go to the back of the line if you can't meet your deadlines, no matter how well you drew. And there were some guys that we loved growing up, and, but they would only do one or two comics a month. And the rest of us, I think,

had like more ambitious aspirations, because the guys that we favored did monthly comics, and that's how you build a rapport. And so I broke in from a convention, a Marvel editor hired me, and I was already like... So Todd McFarlane had been in the comic book business since I was probably a sophomore in high school. So I had been following his early work at DC Comics,

and then when he jumped over to Marvel, and so I knew who he was was and he finally, you know, I'd say Todd had about a five year journey to find the right vehicle for him, which was Spider-Man. And then it just blew up, you know. And sometimes it's different actors find different roles, musicians, whatever. So he actually, I did an entire podcast on this

called The L Boys, because we were all Lee Larson, Leifeld, Lim, we were all breaking in with L's in our names. It was weird. But Todd was going around sizing us up, flat out sizing us up. He was very competitive. One of the most competitive people I've ever met. And in his older phase now, he's kind of, um...

We call him Mayor Todd. He's kind of trying to be mayor of the comic community. And so he's less, I guess, combative and competitive. But the Todd that I met... Because once we met, we hit it off, and we talked every day, all day. Because you... When you're making comics, it's a lonely business.

Uh, we're an isolated in our, in our studios and back when, you know, phones had 20 foot cords on them, you know, I'd pull it over from the wall and talk all day to, to everybody else in the business. What are you doing? What are you drawing? What do you think about this? What different story ideas, different aspirations? Cause when you, you you know when you love the comic books you are thinking about comic books 24-7 and so Todd really when he got Spider-Man he was very you know that's Marvel's number one character and I think people were dying to have a fresh take on but you know with Spider-Man and I think our entire generation was coming into a comic book kind of a comic book community that was tired.

We were the new guys. It's just like a rookie or a new guy that you draft and you put on your team or a young free agent. We wanted to make our mark. The people that we grew up loving had been doing it now for 20 years and they were tired. They were tired. And the inspiration that we felt when we were kids when they were new had kind of you know

And I and and and you you remember that because now that's right as as in my late 50s as I do this I go I don't want to phone it in I want to like leave it all on the page because I remember kind of the oh These guys seem like they're not as interested anymore but we were very our personalities I think were on the page very loud very splashy and and so so just getting that they became my community they became like when you're talking to every one of these guys every day I'm talking to Todd I'm talking to Jim I'm talking to Eric and and so we created and it was very competitive, super competitive. Sometimes I see-

So you're helping each other, but competing against each other at the same time. Oh, gauging everybody's moves, gauging everybody's moves, right? So, you know, knowing that Todd had Spider-Man and that Jim was on X-Men, which was a great gig, but it wasn't one that was up for grabs when they had offered me this book, New Mutants. A year earlier, X-Men was very, what is it? It was very stable. Very stable and it was the number one selling book. No matter who did X-Men, it was number one

for the last 10 years. The characters had really clicked, had connected. New Mutants was a total dog and they had offered me a different X-Men comic and with the original X-Men it was called X Factor but I knew I don't want to go anywhere near that book. I am not gonna do the original X-Men. I'm not gonna follow this great talent that's doing it. That's a bad... it's whoever has been the New England quarterback for the last four years. He's not Tom Brady and that's all you need to know. He's not Tom Brady and that's all you know He's not Tom Brady, right?

So you step into yep when you're following a great and I was I was like, you know And they said Rob you don't understand This is gonna sell a lot of copies and make you a lot of money in royalties because royalties had really started picking up Okay, and you could make you know six figures in royalties a year in 1989 1990 from comic books, because comic books were selling a lot more than they're selling nowadays. The X-Men are probably at that point selling

500,000 units, and so the guy doing it is doing very well. So, and Todd Spiderman was now going up being, so I'm on this new Newton's book, and they're like, look Rob, do whatever you want, we're gonna probably cancel it. So it was I it's like flipping a house it was like a fixer-upper and I knew exactly what that book needed and and I said I'd rather do that then and they're like we think you're insane for not doing X Factor that's a lot of money that's a good gig but if you want this

but I said I need to be able to reshape it bring my own characters in and do all this stuff And so they had nothing to lose Because they had hired me away from DC. I had done some work for DC Marvel They hired me first, but then they were slow in getting the assignments and you know when you're an artist What am I drawing next? I got to pay the rent. I got it, you know, people always go What was your inspiration for cable in Deadpool? I'm like paying the rent Like I'd love to give you some fancier, but it was like I need to My this book needs to sell in order to sell I need to put stuff in it

That it doesn't have right now, which is popular characters. Yeah, and I thought I speak fluent comic book Okay, just like you speak fluent ministry. I Speak fluent comic books. I knew what worked growing up, and I had good instincts. And so it just took it. That's the thing I think that took Marvel by surprise, was suddenly New Mutants just boom, boom, boom, boom. Suddenly I'm at the top of the charts. And I don't have any enhancements, gimmicks.

It's just story and characters. And as I went to different stores and different conventions, you're aware that, wait, last time I was at the store, there was 50 people in the store. It's just story and characters. And as I went to different stores and different conventions, you're aware that, wait, last time I was at the store, there was 50 people. Now there's 500.

So I'm going to be here signing for six hours. Last time I was at this convention, I had a line of 20 now. They're telling me they have crowd control. And will I be able to sign for the next four hours? Because there's hundreds of people waiting. Then it got to be thousands in the 90s. And so the fans, when they like your work, they'll show up.

I know, I tried in the 90s, man. They turned me away. Hey, I'm sorry we didn't see you. I'm sorry. No, I get it. I get it. I was at Comic Con in the 90s. I was like, I want to get in line.

And they didn't let me. But obviously, it was rocking then. Yeah. So I mean, you said what it was like. I'm just trying to tell you. Yeah. Very fun. Comic books were really defined by comic books. Yeah. So I mean, you said what it was like, I'm just trying to tell you. Yeah, very funny. Comic books were really defined by comic books.

They weren't defined by movies and television because none of that stuff existed. The occasional. You know, the Incredible Hulk, when it was on TV for a couple of years, I loved it. I never missed it, but it wasn't really the whole comic book was better. It was better than Lou Ferrigno, you know, appearing as the Hulk twice every Friday night, which I never missed, but I'm like, and they have him fighting guys in gorilla suits because they can't have a real gorilla, right?

And so you're like, eh, this is not great, but it's cool that they're trying, they're trying. It's a good attempt, but it was nowhere near what happened in the 2000s, nothing like that. It's interesting to think about comics being kind of the pure, the way you described it, because when I was growing up, like when they made a movie, it's like, did to think about comics being kind of the pure the way you described it because when I was growing up Like when they made a movie it's like did this reflect the comments or raised my kids on the MCU? And it's like they don't know the comics. Yeah, this is defined. The comics is downstream from it. It's just a different approach

Now I got you mentioned new mutants. We're gonna come back to the origin of Deadpool I know my audience is like how do we intersect faith with the character Deadpool? Hold on. I just want to know I ordered I think I have it right here your last comic. Yeah, Deadpool team up That's right. Yeah. Yeah, and I eventually want to have you sign it but Even today when I get a comic in the mail like there's something inside me That's like I want to open it up and I want to look at it same pulling these Comic books out I was going through yesterday with my son and it just takes me back to like seventh eighth grade You mentioned Tom the pharaoh and spider-man. I mean I sold at the comic-con in San Diego

It must have been I got a thing about this. I think I was in seventh or eighth grade I sold Iron Man number two to get as many Todd McFarlane amazing spider-man as I could Yeah, like it brings me back in so many ways You've been doing this for decades. Do you still have that love for comics or do you have to generate it? You know if you were to drop into my family They would they could answer this for you like obvious. I would sometimes walk through the house and go what what does dad love kids. Besides you. It'd be like comic books that we know in comic books. No it's it's my wife is really

generous. There's there's I get about my comics have spilled into about three of six rooms. So wait six rooms in the house. Yeah, not not not comic books, but the figures. Oh, that's yours. Maybe. And now, so I married the coolest. Yeah, not not comic books, but the figures. Oh, God. The statues. Art maybe. And now, so I married the coolest. Oh my gosh, she's the coolest. She loves them in the hardcovers,

like these collected editions. Okay. So getting, and really that brought me back in the 2000s, because I was like, we didn't used to collect comics like this. They look so like nice and important. Yeah, they do. And so I'm like, well, I need to make a lot of collections now.

No, my boys are the same as yours in that they were raised by those movies. And they would tell me, dad, we're not comic book fans. I'm an MCU fan. Are we clear, dad? I'm like, I got it. Got it. I love you have those things and look the

I've talked about it before but you didn't let anybody if you wanted to be referred in the cool crowd You didn't let anybody know you you read comic books on its kit like like especially in high school I remember and I would hide if if I brought them Yeah school and I only brought them to school if there was a comic book that I just needed to interact with all day long, like a great issue, The X-Men or Daredevil. But I would hide them. And because that was just seen as nerdy,

uncool, and very childish. Like you must have had some regression. Why are you looking at comic books? What a silly thing. You know, my art teacher also, when he would see what I was doing, I've talked about this too, he's like, there's no money in that.

I'm like, how would you know? He literally had graduated from Biola and he got his, he was a young teacher at Whittier Christian where I was going in the 80s. And I would watch him draw Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on his, you know, whatever he was doing. I'm like, oh, that Kareem is rough. Like, I'd be like, I could- It be like, I could help you out with that.

And so he was giving me advice on a business he didn't know anything. He said, at this point, I've been to 10 combo conventions since late junior high in convincing my dad to take me to the local ones. Lot of them were at the Disneyland Hotel. They used to have conventions every three to four months

at the Disneyland Hotel. So it was great to... Like, it was much more accessible. Again, meeting the people who made them was really important, but I just, uh, comics... When they... There was a series in the 70s, Marvel was trying a lot of different stuff, because sci-fi action adventure had been a realm

that now was of interest. And they had a very, uh... as sci-fi action adventure had been a realm that now was of interest. And they had a very, it didn't take, but there was a super kind of sci-fi concept they had called Skull the Slayer. And it's a bunch of people who got lost in a dinosaur world. And there was a lot of that when I was growing up. There was a movie called The Land That Time Forgot

that truly when I watched it again, I'm like, oh wow, that was really schlocky. Those are bad dinosaurs. These are like, as a kid, it's different. I saw it drive through with my family on vacation, The Land That Time Forgot, but people getting lost in different continents with dinosaurs. Marvel did this six issues, Skull the Slayer,

they collected it, and Sean, I waited for UPS to deliver that two weeks ago. And I mean, oh, two weeks ago. Skull the Slayer! And I'm like, I waited for UPS to deliver that two weeks ago. And I mean, roll! Two weeks ago. Oh, skull to the snare! And I'm like, I'm doing it! Bare chested dude, his spear, you know, leather pants and boots. I mean, full on 70s, like, action adventure guy. Oh, that's hilarious.

And you're like, of course this didn't work. But I loved it. I loved anything. I would buy anything. That's all we had in some ways. Marvel, I've talked about it on my podcast when Luke Cage, Power Man, became a thing. I mean, I think I did a podcast about

how does a boy in Orange County come to idolize the champion of Queens or Brooklyn? And I was like, I'm all about Luke Cage power man and his belt he had a chain for a belt and and he had his big afro and his open chested shirt and he and he'd say all these kind of you know black exploitation phrases because it that was happening at the same time and I would see those movies on the weekends they were they were recycling by then the stuff that was on in 72 was on TV in 77 and 78. So I would watch all of those blaxploitation movies.

And suddenly, and after American Bandstand, I watched Soul Train. So suddenly, like, and I think that's, I think my parents just gave up. Like, we can't control. We can't control it. He's listening, he's got Soul Train on. He's watching. He's got soul train on. He's he's he's looking he's watching shaft. Um, you know, so so so I just comics and and movies can just especially if you're willing to take that escape. And like my nephew is a giant film buff, giant. He's 21. Like, I said to my wife, I go he's me me at that age. He goes to see every movie.

He wants to see older stuff that was older that wasn't around when he was a kid. He pursues directors. And once you give yourself over to the arts, it can be a great escape. And so yes, I still cherish all that stuff. I love it. I love to hear that.

And that comes through in your podcast as well. I wanna hear about your journey to faith. You described at the very beginning, your dad was a Baptist pastor. We're actually filming this in your church. I've spoken here for years. And when someone mentioned you went here, I'm like, wait a minute, like this is the Rob Liefeld? Like nobody cares here. Was there a moment, which they shouldn't care. At my church, it's the same with me. They're like, oh, that's, that's fine.

We've been here for 26 years. Yeah. I love it. At my church, it's the same with me. They're like, oh, that's shocking. We've been here for 26 years, yeah. I love it. I love it. Was there a moment or reason why you became a Christian so we know your love for comics? What was it that like, I take this faith from my parents, this is important to me? So growing up in my dad's church and just the people that were around us. I did it after Sunday school when I was like six years old. But then and I did it knowingly because I believed. I just believed. I understood and I believed and I had

comprehension of heaven, of faith, of the Lord. And it was easy for me to give it over. And then the other thing is, oh, man, you should do in the late 70s, these rapture films started coming out and A Thief in the Night, A Distant Thunder. You should Google them. You should look them up. And we would play them in our church and they would scare the crap out of me.

And they showed like post apocalyptic rapture and they're beheading Christians. And so my dad actually said, hey, Rob, we're gonna be showing one of those movies again, the second one in the series. Could you not come up to receive the Lord again? Because this will be the third time. And I'm like, I know they just scare me so much, dad.

I get so scared. Because I was like, now you gotta understand, I'm also about 11, you know? But these are dark movies these these rapture armageddon movies are dark okay so but look you grow and you mature and you find your own way because at some point you have felt the Lord move in my life, my entire life. Let me, let me take you on a small detour here that I think is a huge test of faith. So I keep going back to these childhood memories and I am, I think just now understanding how how much they shaped me. I talk about him so much, but my dad got a tumor

and in 1978 was, he was starting to see triple vision. See you're 11ish around that time. Yeah, yes, yes, yes, 11 years old. And I understand, my parents are totally trying to downplay this, but one night, I know my dad's going into the hospital, but I turn around and my dad is, I've never seen him cry, just weeping and my mom is like clinging to him like it's gonna be okay. The next day he goes into surgery and I

go to school that day. My mom and my sister who is 17 go to the hospital with the rest of the family. So my dad doesn't come home till 1979. He is in the hospital for nine months. He develops a blood clot the next day and is in a coma for six months. And that period of my life is going with my mom four to five nights a week, driving to the hospital in Anaheim,

and my mom struggling to hold it together, crying. And me grabbing her, mom, it's gonna be okay. And then one night I just heard her wailing. Because here's the other thing, because I can't believe people talk like this. But so I am 11 and what's going with me to the hospital, comic books. They're coming with me because she's,

I'm not allowed to see him. Apparently he's black and blue. He looks messed up. I would wait in the lobby and I'd have my comic books, my escape. But then my mom would come back out with maybe my aunt or somebody else. And the doctor would say, well, you know,

he's on life support on the machine. And I've got to tell you, Mrs. Leiffeld, I would recommend considering letting him go because he's likely to live the rest of his life as a vegetable. And I go, this is rad. This is back when we would tell people, you're a vegetable, he's a vegetable.

No one talks like that anymore. Okay, but when you're 11 and you're on the bench in the lobby and right there, kitty corner to the wall, the doctor is telling you, you may want to unplug your dad. And you're like, bench in the lobby and right there, kitty corner to the wall, the doctor is telling you, you may wanna unplug your dad. And you're like, crap, this sucks. So we would go home and my mom would cry. It was the saddest, my house was sad.

My escapism was my neighborhood buddies. There was five boys on my block. And I would just, there was sometimes I would get home at midnight from my bike. I would just leave that situation. But one night I heard my mom wailing, wailing, just crying. And I went back to see her and she literally, I mean, this is, this was one of those moments

that just froze me in place. I said, mom, it's gonna be okay, it's gonna be okay. And she said, she literally is just her face is red from crying. And she looks at me and she goes, why does God hate us? She goes, the Lord is punishing us. And I said, like, that was so alien. I said, mom, God's not punishing us. He doesn't hate us. So I'm probably closer to 12. I said, this is just a trial that mom, it's just a trial, we're gonna get through it. And trust me, I think she looked at me like, what is coming out of his mouth?

And I looked at me like, what did I just say? And I remember walking into my room going, what did I just, like, what came upon me to calm my mom down? But so he would come back. So when he woke up, he needed like two months of rehab and they wouldn't let him come home. And even when he came home, I'm telling you, this is rough 1978 science. His head was sunk in and he would go back in six weeks and they'd put a piece of plastic

underneath his skin to build his, but the bone and in the, in the, this brain tumor that they opened him up to take out, they had just cost him so much skull and bone, so he had a piece of plastic. And my dad was numb on this side of his face for the rest of his life. And his eye was sewn closed because it was gone because the tumor was all behind his eye. So he wore darker glasses and I would be like,

what do you mean you're numb? And he's like, I can't feel anything. And there were times when I'd be like, I'm gonna pinch your cheek as hard as I can. Yes, I'm 12 years old standing there and I'm gonna pinch you. And he's like, I can't feel anything, kid. I can't feel anything.

I can't feel. So this had a profound impact on him as a person. For sure. It cost him a confidence that I never saw again. His swagger was permanently gone. And they even said, we're touching the frontal part of his lobe each time in order to pull this off. And so my dad would go through five of these in 20 years.

The tumors just kept regrowing. And we would just, every time it would be like, oh my gosh, my dad's going back in, is he gonna come out? And each time he came out with a different personality. One time he was loopy, loopy and funny and goofy in a way that we'd never known because they said

we are touching parts of his lobe and it could affect his personality. So that 1978, 1979 journey, I believe was when I was like, my faith was as a kid, just tested. My escape was comic books, but I never wavered. And my mom, I became my support. Now, if you're gonna ask me about my sister, I don't know where she was.

She was also escaping into her own rock and roll and just starting up her, she drove away in her car, I drove away on my bike um and and so so during that period I I feel like my faith was strengthened and and uh When when trials have come up since I just I have no problem accessing that awful year That's amazing and going we made it through that we made it through. I mean

You're in a coma for six months? Who comes back from that? That's like fairy tale stuff, okay? And then that changed how he was perceived at church through some factions. So then I get church politics for the next several years. And I probably had every reason to just abandon faith and go, I'm out of here. These people are, are awful. But I just, I, I felt a presence that calmed me and carried me and,

and has never not been there for me. So, so that is my long-winded answer. But I'm going to tell you something. The arts, like I told you, once you start interacting with the arts, so you're raised in the super strict, uh, Baptist world. Okay. And then you get into the arts and you go, well, I don't feel the same way. My dad is freaked out about these hippies and they're drugs, but comics is where I met, you know, my, uh, drugs, but comics is where I met, you know, encountered people who routinely engaged in drugs, smoking, alcohol. It's where I met in my very young, you know, early teens, the gay community, in all manner of things

that were being approached from pulpits, very judgy. And then you go, well, here's the deal. As an artist, I saw the world differently because I'm like, I don't approach this in the same way. And what I learned is, I'm not here to judge anybody. With my faith, I need to be responsible for me. It's that whole log guy thing. And, and, uh, I need to be responsible for what I do, how I conduct myself, but throwing rocks against other people as, as that parable or, or is that Jesus story will tell you, you're getting a whole lot rock of rocks thrown back your way. So you know, I immediately realized that it is not my job to do anything but love everybody. And because I'm now in this community of artists, artists and artists and artists and nobody's the same and everyone's different. And I think that

when you're not in the arts, you know, whether it's actors, musicians, people like me who draw or paint, you know, you just it opens you up in a whole different manner. And you go, why would anyone feel angry about this or this or this? These are sweet, nice, kind people. So what if this guy does a lot of dope? Okay, so what if the only time I'm with this guy, he's high? Like, like, as long as he's not hurting anybody. And I'm with this guy, he's high. Like, like, as long as he's not hurting anybody. And it's not really like, you know, I mean, look at how as a society and I already address this on my podcast, I don't do any drugs. I don't drink at all. I don't just talk about the bottom line is I have friends who cannot toke

for 10 minutes. Okay. And that's, they're not hurting anybody. We had to move a long way on marijuana, you know, and I don't partake, okay. But I think it's like, finally people saw it as like the less evil thing. We had a friend in our family who had helped them deal with their cancer, you know, that weed was something that they were recommended to so it's we as a society

and probably as a church probably have some growing still to do but i my job is not to be anything but love other people and that's what i think i do really well is i love it i love other people good stuff so my audience are going sean push back on marijuana and that is a story for another time different conversation sure i want to know about Deadpool. Yeah. And here's my question for you. I, uh, when did the first Deadpool movie come out? What year was it? So that would be 2016, 2016. Okay. So almost a decade ago, I was teaching a high school Bible class. Yeah. I had a Christian school down south here in San Juan teaching it by all and Talbot. And I'm always looking for stuff that happens in culture to just get my students to think sure so I went to the board

This is a 90 minute long class period probably 12 students juniors and seniors and I just wrote on the board I said can a Christian watch Deadpool? I love this. Okay, let's go and The two sides emerged one side that was like, you know, there's sexual innuendos, there's language, there's violence and the biblical prohibitions, we should stay away from that. The other side's like, as long as somebody is not, you're not making somebody stumble,

we have certain freedom in Christ. And they just went at it and I moderated this thing for like 90 minutes. Obviously you have opinions about this, but tell me how you would answer that question and why. So I'm gonna go in a different direction, but I'm gonna go back to, actually, you know what I forgot? So this is the collection.

I bought these in their raw form, but they collected them. And this artist is why nobody has ever done a better version of the collected Bible. But these were actually sold as little square bound about yay big and they were put in Bible bookstores and our church carried them. And then they collected this and I'm telling you some of the best versions of these biblical heroes that I'm talking about. Now let's go to Samson. So you like this. You're not critical of that. This is such a beautifully. Can the camera see it? it up there so they see the picture. Now this came out in the 70s this is a collection of all these comics they were doing in the 70s. Great renditions of David, Samson, Jesus, Goliath but let's go to Samson. When I was having my kids my wife was having them I'm helping her raise them. Good clarification. Joy back off. So my wife's name having them. I'm helping her raise them. Okay. Don't, yeah, yeah. Joy, back off.

So my wife's name is Joy. I really kind of retired for about four years. But what I started doing is I said, it's time for me to read through the Bible and I read through it once and read through it immediately again. So it wasn't even in a year. I just was so consuming it.

I went to Starbucks every day, two hours every morning. And I would just write copious notes, copious notes, because I was looking at it from a different perspective. So Samson is my guy as a kid. Then you realize as an adult, and let me also just kind of, when I say I'm going in a different direction, this is in its purest form, the most R rated book we can give our kids, and we do it every day.

Okay, you give your kids an R rated book every day, Christians, okay? This is a hard R, hard R. I remember being in church, going, well I've read all these, what song of Solomon? Whoa, whoa, I remember distinctly, my point of view on that, whoa, whoa, there's sex in here, there's sex in the Bible. And afterwards, tell my buddy, you guys write songs.

Oh, man. Holy crap. There's like, okay. And you can say, but it has a different meaning. Yes, but it is. Samson is a bad guy. He is a, uh, forget his pact with the Lord. He's dishonest. He steals. He lies. He is. He breaks his covenant with everyone. He was anest. He steals. He lies. He is. He breaks his covenant with everyone. He's an adult. I'm like, wow, I really idolize this guy and he is a bit of a scoundrel. Um but he had he he was used in a powerful way and I will not tell you who had this church went at me over

Kobe Bryant during his rape trial and I said, God loves Kobe and and that's you know, I found myself at a Shaquille O'Neal fundraiser late that summer and the accusations and he was headed towards trial in one of the LA Times writers. He's now an instructor. He works at a college, but his name was J. A. Adonandi. He was on ESPN for a while. I am leaning up against him as he's waiting to go in to Shaq's mobile unit and interview him about the upcoming season.

And the Kobe stuff was everywhere. But some of my friends here at church who hate the Lakers and hate Kobe, would go at me about Kobe, what a scoundrel he was. I go, David was also a scoundrel. David, you love David, you love David. He openly lusted after Bathsheba and killed her husband. Literally, like to the point where,

and that's that great part where Nathan says, after he says, this is what I'm gonna level against this guy, and Nathan says, that guy is you. You're this awful person I'm talking about. Here's the deal. I believe that, I'm talking about. Here's a deal. I believe that I'm going to get back to the arts and you're like, but Rob, you're taking on this, this, this legacy, you know, sacred tome. Okay. It's still everything I just told you. And, and part of it really stimulated

me as a kid, all the action, all the adventure, but as adult, you go, man, these are all compromised people. They're all really rough. I was talking to my wife about Abraham the other day, and she goes, I can't stand Abraham. He lied about his wife. And I'm like, whoa, didn't know this was such a trigger. Okay, so you're like, Rob, what about Deadpool? Deadpool's a piece of entertainment,

just like a Shakespeare play you're gonna go see, or just, you know, whatever. And it is all those things. It is raunchy. The movie leaned into raunch and craziness. It's also a bit of a chaos agent. And I think it was the right movie at the right time. You never know when it's gonna hit at the right time.

But I think it shattered the model of what everybody loved. And yes, it indulges in all manner of, like I said, just raunchy material. And for me, again, as an artist, I need to be able to, whatever I'm doing, create characters that are compromised. Because otherwise there's nothing to come from, no one wants Boy Scouts. Why are they struggling?

You and I grew up with Superman and I love Superman But all I ever hear and I heard it today on another podcast because there is so much Angst about this new Superman movie there is because because he's just a Boy Scout At the end of the day He was raised by mom. Pa Kent. He was a good boy in the Midwest. And he did everything. He did. He did everything upright. He I've talked about this on my podcast. We as a society move to the anti-hero. It happened. That's right. When you go, when, when, when they were making the Godfather films. And so I watch a lot of old

seventies cop shows when I draw, cause I've seen them all. I just need noise. And you can you can hit you can tell when the Godfather hit the culture because all of the storylines in the mid the late 70s become about mobsters and mob bosses. And it's like, oh, the success of the Godfather immediately hits television and is reflected. I mean, and there is nothing but cop shows. Every network had four or five of them. So you're talking, you know, they're all reflecting because they always, they all want to cash in on what's going on. But that really was in the glorification of mobsters,

of killers. Look at Sopranos, this heralded show about a murderer. He murders people. He is a brutal mob boss who does horrible, awful, and sanctions horrible, awful, and sanctions, horrible, awful, violent acts. And they deal in drugs, and they deal in... And I never missed an episode.

And I loved it, because I saw great acting. I got... I saw great conflicts. I'm just not an advocate of all the... The only stories that we can tell are... are so pure. Sanitized. Yeah. And I'm gonna go back to this. If you're really examine what we're giving our kids, there is some real, I mean, like I said, you cannot, you cannot win an argument with me that tells me this is not our rate of material. You're not gonna. So don't try. You won't get there. It's it's it's already material and we give it to every idol

I laugh out loud because I was one of those kids. Okay Last week, I'm shocked The show called house of David is number one on Amazon when every week it's on it goes to number one It'd be like some of their best like Reacher and I saw all the pop culture sites did David really behead Goliath? I'm like, what a bunch of morons. You know this if you go to Sunday school.

You knew this when you were a kid. You knew this when you were six. Of course he beheaded him. And he carried the head around. Let's go further. And he loved the sword. David was like, yeah, I killed the giant right on. He's right here.

I have his head. The culture is going, was that something that Hollywood did? No, that's the Bible. That's R-rated. If they really, I've seen every adaptation of David. And the ones I like are the one, stay on him, sawing that head off. Don't cut away.

That is a brutal act. I agree with that. And so look, here's the deal. I believe that I just don't have a whole lot of interest in Boy Scouts. And even like Cable, the first character that I introduced, he was lying to everyone. He had mystery.

He was deceiving everyone for his, you know, primary mission. And later on, he was tremendously compromised. And then Deadpool is just a lunatic, because the experimentations drove him nuts. And so now he doesn't really have any, he doesn't have like a balanced footing in reality. And I think part of the appeal of him, and just for entertainment's sake,

I was at a Las Vegas show in 2016. Deadpool had come out and there was a lot of kids dressed like Deadpool for years. I always say the cosplayers kept Deadpool alive for the six years whether Fox decided to make this movie or not. And I'm in Las Vegas. great show, great crowd. It's kind of the end of the day and I see this mom and she is coming up with little, I just call him little Billy. Little Billy is dressed like Deadpool. And she says, you know, my son just loves Deadpool, but you know, I'll never let him see that horrible movie. And I'm like, oh great, so I'm getting a scolding

from Billy's mom. Billy is dressed like Deadpool. And I said, you know what, it's the end of the day. I'm gonna get away with this. I said, well, I'm sorry to hear that ma'am, but I just want you to know that your son is dressed as a contract killer, mercenary and a murderer.

So maybe you think about that the next time Billy goes out dressed like Deadpool. And she was like, she gave me one of my mom's looks. Well, I never. And I'm like, well, maybe don't walk up to me and scold me, lady, while your kid's wearing the Deadpool costume, okay? And everyone has this, you know,

he's a hot topic character, right? But the movies definitely, I think they were just, I don't know where we were as a society, but that brand of humor, which you're gonna find 10 years earlier in a lot of what Jim Carrey was doing, Jim Carrey's zany, crazy humor. But at the end of the day, Sean,

when you bought New Mutants 91, he is a mercenary. Why did I become a mercenary? Because I was obsessed with bounty hunters, people who kill people for money. And so, and again, the end of the day, it's comic books. I think I mentioned to you earlier that my mom was very concerned about my obsession, but I was able to very, one of the highlights of my life, and my mom was still here on Earth.

I didn't have her, she didn't meet him, but I was so thrilled when Josh Brolin was cast as Cable, because I'm a huge fan. And I grew up watching his dad on television. Every Saturday night, he was in a show called Marcus Welby. And he was the hunky doctor alongside the old dark Marcus Welby. And every woman in America was watching

for Josh's dad, James Brolin. And so when I met Josh, and I'm on the set of Deadpool 2, I said, Josh, can I just tell you something? I said, your dad is the first time I realized that my mom may have had hots for another dude besides my dad. I'm like, my mom, like she's digging James Brolin.

Like, oh, that's not real. He's not a real doctor. That Like, oh, that's not real. He's not a real doctor. That's a lie. That's not real. Emergency, other than cop shows, there were medical dramas and there still are, right? And so I just go, when we're looking at the world of film, you know, filmed entertainment

or television, comic books, novels, you know, I remember when, I literally remember when friends here in the church were like, you can't have your son read Harry Potter. And I'm like, are you, are we really, and we're gonna go picket the Barnes and Noble because the kids are waiting in line to get the, like, do you not have better use of your time

than to go tell kids not to read about Harry? Do I believe that there's some deep message in there to turn our kids into wizards and demons I don't it's just about magic and then you're like but magic is from the devil and at that point I have to disconnect I'm not saying you do but when people that I know I get it in the religious community I go what about having some fun okay like like can we just have fun with our imaginations and imagine wizards and there's also not trolls and there's not ogres But we let our kids watch Shrek and hey, it's cool Don't get me started Sean. I've gone too far fair enough. So let me just one one pushback and then we'll move on I love the pushback that you might hard give it to me. So the Bible are rated agreed

You pointed to the example of say Sam Samson, which is in Judges. The theme of Judges, obviously, and everyone did that, which is right in their own eyes. What happens? Then you have these stories of just tragedy, of Samson clearly. In fact, two days ago, my wife and I were talking because she's been working through the Bible in the year and it's this last story of this prostitute who's raped for hours left to dead. She's found in the morning body cut up in 12 pieces sent to the tribes of Israel. That's at the end of the book kind of making the

point like if we leave God's law it's gonna lead to this. The criticism that I hear of Deadpool is like it's not just enough violence to make the moral point. The whole point is that it's gratuitous and it's over the top. It is kind of in your face. It is. So it seems like the violence is very it depicted very differently than it would be in the Bible. So make sense of that. So this is where I, whoa, totally disagree. The first illustrated Bible I was given was when I was in my aunt and uncle's wedding.

And so I'm about eight years old and they give me this giant illustrated Bible. And I found copies of these in bookstores. And the one that blew me away, and it was like a Frank Frazetta painting, is Samson and the Jawbone of an Ass. It was the most bloody depiction, cracking these Philistines with a jawbone,

you know, a bone and slaughtering them all. Apparently 500, okay? I am gonna tell you that that viscerally connected with me on a male like testosterone. Yeah, this dude is rad. But of course, when I read it, he failed God miserably. Right. And like I told you, he's a liar.

He's a scoundrel. He steals. And at the end, when he is pushing a plow, which is a woman's job in the book of Sam, what he is ultimately doing at the end for the Philistines, in his humiliation, blinded, they cut his hair. I mean, he's really a moron. And what happened to him is completely self-inflicted, but he calls out one last time and it says even here, even at the end with all of this, the disappointment he was, he was able to

be used by the Lord. So there's the, like I've told people, even if you think this is a bunch of fairy tales and it's parables, so much wisdom and so much great. I mean, let's just go to whatever problems is, don't loan money. Don't give a loan out. You're gonna resent it. Just give them the money. Like I remember that during that early 2000, I'd go, Joy, we don't loan people money.

We just give it. Cause loans create, can create a lot of friction and resentment and that's whether we love the Bible or not, whether we believe it's real, there's great wisdom in that. just great very practical. So yes, we're talking about a comic book character Who yes inspires the same thing in many readers that that Samson did for me as a kid as an eight-year-old They love there's a reason he has guns and swords. I loaded him. Okay, all the weapons. I love the weapons

Why is Wolverine so popular? Why was the X-Men a dead franchise until a guy with six knives came out? Okay, and started impaling people and I've talked to people about this. I Put the X-Men back on the shelves as a kid It wasn't as interesting to me as the fantasy for or the Avengers Thor at a hammer cap at a shield hawk I had bows and arrows. There was a character that they haven't really done a whole lot with him, but he was called the Swordsman and he had a sword. He was on the Avengers. Everybody had weapons.

Then there's the X-Men and I call them Temple Touchers and Armcasters, and nothing more boring than Temple Touchers. Stop, Sean, stop. Wait, Gene, intervene. You stop. Iceman, make him cold. You're cold. And then Beast, jump a lot, intervene. You stop. Iceman, make him cold. You're cold. And then Beast, jump a lot.

Because you can jump. And what's Angel going to do? I'm going to flap my wings at you, baby. I'm going to flap him until you're pissed. He does nothing. Wolverine shows up, six, three and three, six, and starts impaling people. And little Robbie Liefeld's like, I love him.

I'll buy anything he's in for the rest of my life, and I have. And, you know, Hugh Jackman said to me, you know, found a Wolverine going back a long way. I'm like, yes! Like, and when you were cast, I was thrilled. I didn't care that you were six, seven, which, you know, Wolverine's supposed to be a little guy. So, look, I love the pushbacks.

We... I don't get up in the morning and aspire to be Deadpool. I don't aspire to be any of my characters. But I love writing insane, crazy, entertaining stories that are escapism. And I just know as a kid, I needed that escapism, because here's the deal. Going back whatever long we've been here,

I couldn't believe all these people died. Wait, there's no further adventures of David. There's no further, trust me, in the only bone, should I make it to heaven? Should I speak with the Lord? I'd be like, I have to have a talk with you. It's bothered me my whole life. I feel like Moses totally got screwed.

I think you hosed him so bad, so bad. I've never been able to reconcile that he had to be like, OK, you guys get to go in all watch from up here. And that they even include that in the Charlie and Ten Commandments. Right. You know, he's like, see, everybody, I'm going to die on this rock while you go get I managed you. Miserable people. And now you get to go and I get to watch.

I've never I'll never I can't reconcile that. I can't make it make sense. And you're like, and it's like one of those things like you go, this really bothers me. This one doesn't, you know, and I'm sure I'll get a great explanation and be like, this is over your head, Rob, which I'm sure there's a lot over my head. But so anyway, I love doing this. I know we've probably gone way off. But I love this. No, I'm not going to

talk about this with anybody else. So thanks for having me. Oh, my goodness. This is great great This is great. Can I ask you a couple more? Is that to wrap it up? Okay, awesome. So I I Have a podcast that this should be on we do separately. We call it think biblically. Okay It's like how do we think biblically about nursing? How do we think biblically about history? How do think biblically about art? We did one recently with one of who Tom H Helene is the head of our cinematic film department and he worked on you know a bunch of shows. My favorite one of my favorite shows of all time

Breaking Bad. Yes on that show. Huge. Talked about film. I'm curious how do we think about thinking biblically about comics and part of what we talked about before is kind of the common question like what can Christians indulge in and you have those more conservative those more libertine but even as an artist as a creator like what biblical principles help you uniquely think about this and live out as a Christian artist if that so I'm gonna lay down here my job is is to do my job to the best of my ability. Okay. When I grab a page, and the reason I have a,

cause look, I've watched artists in my field writers lose a connection because the work isn't there anymore. And you're always aware, is this good? Is this good? I've got a comic book coming out next week. I think it's one of the best comics I ever did. Because I'm constantly pushing myself. I have a method when I draw my comics.

I basically draw every page three times. And people used to make fun of me, but I draw it this small. Then I draw it this big. Then the final stage is the 11 by 7. So I'm kind of working out the kinks. I'm working out, I'm trying to make it as dynamic and fun. I may go, you know what? That shot needs to be a little bigger.

So I'm gonna make him a little bigger, okay? All this stuff that I work out. I am called to do the best with my talent. I have a talent. The biblical principles that you've spoken of have been part of my home that I built with my wife, my kids, my children. I don't believe it's my job to make comic books in any with any biblical relevance because again some some of them are going to be very compromised,

very bad people. And trust me, 20 years ago, it was the first time I had done anything remotely resembling a sex scene. And the Baptist in me was like, oh, you shouldn't be drawing this. This is bad. And that's when I'm like, this is ridiculous. I go see R-rated films with my wife. We watch adult material on HBO or whatever.

It's just, sometimes you have to just kinda shake it, but that is for somebody else. I don't have a job, no, no, no, of course it's fine. I don't have a job as a minister, but when people have asked me, and I guess through my career, I guess I spoke in such a coded way early on, people be like, are you a believer?

Do you have faith? And I'm like, yeah, yeah. And it's just easy to share. It's never been something that I have run from. And even when my career is at the most like blown up, I did a book called Prophet. And the first issue of Prophet has nothing but Bible verses he is hearing, you know,

the Bible is speaking to him the entire time. It's also very violent, comic, you know, commensurate with like I said, the stuff I love like Samson, David, Joshua. And but so I put it out there right from the beginning. And then I decided that I would do a book about an angel who fell to earth called Evangeline. And her relationship with the priest who was losing his faith. What do you do when you're losing your faith? Maybe this isn't for me.

And now an angel fell into my life and it's a beautiful angel. And I was really proud that at no point did they have any sort of romance. Even though it was obvious like she's beautiful. But it was like, I wanted to do like the moonlighting thing in my storytelling. And we, the moonlighting show where they never really got together. It was that the romance, you want it to happen, but it doesn't happen.

I didn't want to have a priest get together with an angel. I thought that would be like crossing a line. But the tension is there and the learning on both of them, because why is she here on earth? Why did she fall? And anyone who's read the Evangeline comic is they, she said, I question God's love of humanity. Why would he love these horrible people? Why are, and because of it, he's now put me amongst them. So in that way, I'm working stuff out, but I can't be guaranteed any time to have that hit the page.

But I was called to be an artist. I was given this gift. I make these comics. They entertain people. I am told by people all the time, I really enjoy your work. Well, I think they enjoy my work because I do it to the best of my ability.

I don't phone it in. I work really hard. I use the gifts that I was given in the best possible way. But, you know, and I have done, you know, there's also, we won't have time for it, but I forgot this. So I did a book called The Covenant. Oh, nice.

Because it came out about nine years ago. But remember when the Ark of the Covenant is stolen? Oh, yeah. And Eli dies, and Samuel is now the new judge. And I don't believe that there's a lot of blank areas in there. And I believe, I'm going to fill those in. I don't believe Samuel met the angry crowd who wanted

to kill him that night and said, it'll be back in a couple of weeks. Everyone just go about your business. I believed he gathered up some men and he made an attempt to get the ark back. I made that up. And again, I had to reconcile with, am I a heretic? It's that upbringing.

I'm introduced, I had a family member saying, you shouldn't be adding the Bible. It says no adding to it. I'm like, I added to it, get over it. It's fiction because I can't prove that it's real or not. But boy, it's a fun, it's a wrong. It's a great story. And I wedged it in between certain scriptures. And that was my indulgence. I didn't do that to make money. I did it because I was so obsessed with my idea of what could have happened. And when we watch stuff like House of David on Amazon, which is getting millions, I'm shocked, I'm shocked.

I actually am too. I'm shocked how many people are responding to it. But I go, they're taking a lot of liberties, but I'm like, hey, do you think they just sat around on the battlefield every day, all day, staring at the sand? No, they may have made some side hustles. They may have decided, let's try this other mission.

And you go, I'm okay with that. There's a lot of liberties taken with the material, a lot of liberties. Do I believe that Saul's wife was going to see the witch way before he saw the witch? But a friend of mine said to me, who shocked me, just complete atheist, hey, Rob, I love House of David. I'm like, you're watching?

Yeah. It's killer. I dig it. I'm like, you're watching? Yeah, it's killer, I dig it. I'm like, this is like two episodes in. I'm like, you know, eventually Saul goes to see a witch. And then the third episode, Saul's wife is going to see a witch and setting all of that groundwork for what's eventually gonna happen in subsequent seasons.

And so I go, they're taking liberties, but man, they're turning some heads while they're doing it, you know? And I'll close up with, as an artist, watching what Mel Gibson did with Passion of the Christ and his depiction of the devil, stalking Jesus all day long, stalking him. He made sure he could see him.

Like, I was like, that's an artist. He made sure he could see him like it. like I was like that's an artist he interpreted took this and he really so give us an art give us as artists like II really do believe like especially in in in faith based communities like give us a break like like let us do our let us do our thing. We're having we're we're we're entertaining um I can't wait to hear your marijuana story um you just you have to understand I mentioned this so many people in my studio were were I had at least 40 guys who were just on weed all the time and it made me laugh I just I was hysterical and and they would try and get me come on Rob

let's go this is your day you're gonna like gonna like, I'm not, I'm not. But I didn't not work with them because like that then falls into judgment. And that's silly to me, that's just silly. So I'm a bit of a wild acre and hopefully, you know, I've given you some weird stuff today. No, I love it. You said I'd be disappointed.

I'm not disappointed in that response at all. I wanted to hear your heart. Yeah. And by the way, it's interesting that we've kind of have this explicitly biblical comics on this side, and then Deadpool on this side, as if they're separate. Well, and as you know, look, the movies of Deadpool are the raunchiest. The comics don't go there. That was a... At some point, the talent, it's adaptations, you know?

They take your work and they take it in a different direction and you kind of go, this is an interesting direction to go in and actually it clearly was a relief valve for so many people who just wanted to go have this outrageous, I don't think Deadpool in 2016 works without all the MCU movies that came up to it that were kind of serious. And so my son was 15, and it was during the NBA, like,

when, you know, an NBA game, and Superman Batman was coming out. And I believe Deadpool impacted Superman Batman. It's not something I've talked about in great detail, but now there's enough time. The DC movie with Ben Affleck as Batman and Henry Cavill as Superman again, the spots that they were cutting were super serious. They were. And my son was like, Dad? He was on his beanbag watching. Is this real? Are they supposed to be like they were growling at each other other and that's six weeks after Deadpool made everybody laugh and kind of reconsider

What we think of a guy who dresses up in in red and with no superpowers other than he can heal but not aggressive like super strength and super speed and And so it really was a game changer and then it changed help me because I think Superman Batman probably may have had some levity in it at that point, but it's too late. They've shot that movie, they've locked it, it's coming out. But it definitely changed the culture. And you know what I know,

it's given people tremendous joy. And we went to my son's wedding four weeks ago today on the plane, seven year old kid couldn't stop yapping. And when he sat down in front of my wife and I, Deadpool Wolverine, Deadpool Wolverine, I can't, so excited to get to watch Deadpool. And I'm like, whoa, seven years old and they're showing him Deadpool Wolverine. I looked around at my wife and I'm like,

and I'm gonna get to watch it because it's right in front of me. He had his laptop over and all he did was talk for the two hours, our flight to Mexico, about Deadpool Wolverine. And afterwards we're all waiting off the plane. Everyone's like, what'd you think? And he's like, it was so rad.

Wolverine, they battled all these Deadpools, so many Deadpools. There was a girl Deadpool on a couch. And I'm like, I got this kid for life. He's hooked for the rest of his life. Because there's like little Billy, whose mom probably never let him wear the Deadpool costume because are you know costume because I reminded him that's a murderer he's not spider-man spider-man doesn't kill people dead bull kills

people lady so the bottom line is you know you just once the entertainment is out you can restrict it but you gotta and I'm gonna shock your audience with this one yeah well I'm sorry. Sorry, sorry. You maybe don't have guests like me. So let me share with you. I want to give you a shocker. And it kind of fits with everything

we've talked about today, especially growing up in the church with faith. With my church group, my freshman year, we got this great brand new youth pastor. Just couldn't have been the coolest guy. My freshman year, we got this great, brand new youth pastor. Just couldn't have been the coolest guy. Great hair, great looking at a young wife, that they were newlyweds,

but he just brought a different perspective. I felt like he modernized the youth element of our church at the time. And really just, he would come to the high schools, he'd take us out to lunch. He'd take us to dinner. He was really invested in us. But one day, so I'm not driving until my junior year. I'm a young, I graduated when I'm 17.

So I'm a young student. So I would take a bus from what year Christian down, get, catch a couple of buses, get dropped at my dad's work. And he, I'd leave with him and go home during those years that I'm not driving. And so this is probably 1983. Michael Jackson thriller. Huge deal. Right. Album is taking over the world. Number one 50 weeks, whatever it was. And we are all jamming to the Michael Jackson Eddie Van Halen track beat it and This doesn't happen anywhere else in the world. Okay, this doesn't happen anywhere else in the world But it happens at a church with uptight Christians. Okay, and

Mark coolest guy. Hey Rob, can I talk to you? He's young 20s. You know can I talk to you I Go into his office and I feel like, did I do something? Like, am I being singled out? He goes, no, no, you know, I know you're into all this stuff and you listen to a lot of modern pop music and stuff. He goes, Rob, there's this song, Beat It, right now. And you guys are, and he goes, yeah, he goes,

Rob, is it about masturbation? And I'm like, what? Like, hey, how about for the first time ever, you put that in my mind asking me, because I'm thinking really that it's about a guy who has to run away. I did not see that one coming. Beat it.

And I'm having a deep talk with maybe go easy on us, because I don't think that's where Michael Jackson is going here. I don't think so. Now, maybe I was way off, you know? Because there's a lot of music that I didn't really understand what Now, maybe I was way off, you know, because there's a lot of, there's a lot of, a lot of music that I didn't really understand. What hit me with your best shot meant that Pat Benatar was saying. I didn't understand all the sexual connotations are growing up. I just go,

that's a great song. But see what I'm telling you is, well, we have to be careful in the faith based world is, is maybe, maybe not having levity and going to be being too like, that is the last like thing I thought he was going to ask me about was Michael Jackson, Eddie Van Halen beat it in wonka wonka. And I'm like, what I brought this day gone, dude, get me out of here. This is so off. But we wander into these spaces and of judgment. And that's, I think, the biggest thing.

Like I said, I really do believe. When I have met people who are so different than me, as an adult, I thought Jesus was so boring because he wasn't killing people with a bone. And the New Testament just, oh, what a snoozefest. So much teaching. I don't want this. I want action. I want the action heroes, right? This is what a snooze fest. So much teaching. I don't want this. I want action.

I want the action heroes, right? This is what I wanted as a kid. But as an adult, you understand. And what I tell people is, let's say you don't believe in Jesus. Let's say this is all just a fairytale. What he says to the woman at the well, what he says to all of these different people

he encounters, it's about love. It's about love, love, love, love, love. Yes, there's consequences. Great. Most of those consequences are between you and your maker, okay? Those consequences come into play. Now, all of the different ways that we, like on my way here, I was listening to a podcast

and somebody used the word authentic. And the guy goes, oh, the catchphrase of the 2020s, authenticity. And I'm like, that, the catchphrase of the 2020s, authenticity. And I'm like, that guy, it is, he's, he's, we, we wander into these spaces, into these definitions. And, and, and so I understand there's, there's, there's lots of ways that faith and church can help people. And like I said, my faith calmed me at 10 and 11 years old when my entire family is having a nervous breakdown. And this is not a fun time for me.

But the reason I told you the Michael Jackson story is, I mean, that's a real story. And it's a real shock. I was shocked, like, wait, this is not what I thought we were talking about. So the bottom line is, I think we can get too carried away being just caught up in judgment and consequences. I agree.

And the more that we do share love. And now in a world, I tell my wife all the time, we weren't meant to have this much noise. We both have our iPhones. X Instagram, I interact with both of them because it's been a way for me to connect with people who like what I do and have a direct communication with them. But it's really, I always, I'm so glad we grew up when we grew up without, I would hate having to go to high school

or junior high and being insulted on social media and maybe have people with the phones being mean because kids are mean, right? So I mean, when I get up every day I'm like can I how much can I tell my kids I love them that I support their decisions. I got a kid is an actor he got into the arts you know he's doing auditions all day long he's booked some he's done some movies he's done some done some TV not what I would have

chosen for him because of the rejection and the difficulty and that the insanity that is making movies and television. But I'm gonna love him, like my dad loved me and said, you got something there kid, you should keep drawing. Well, my mom was like, that's ridiculous. You're never gonna make a living. So what you said early on, you saw, my dad was very supportive.

My mom was very skeptical and a hurdle to clear. Okay, so Sean, man, I told you I could talk. Oh, I love it. I figured that out. Listen to your podcast. You know, one quick point before we wrap up is you've kind of got on this side, like the more explicit biblical ones and Deadpool here. I actually don't think they're necessarily separated.

One of the things that I love about comics is they ask some of the big questions about good and evil. Sure. things that I love about comics is they ask some of the big questions about good and evil sure and justice and our need for a Savior and the reality of the supernatural so I think I don't think an artist has to do something explicitly Christian to have value by any sense what you said goes back to Colossians 2 3 like whatever you do do it unto the Lord. And I think that transcends our discipline. Last question, tell us what you're excited about, tell us what you're working on.

Well, you know, I'm 57, I'll be 58 soon, and I don't know that my eyes and my hand will hold up in terms of like just everybody I've ever loved in the arts, in the illustrators. The eye-hand coordination, it takes its toll, it goes. Yeah, you go, most people's greatest work isn't in their 60s. So I've kind of got this, when I'm 62, I'm done.

I'm gonna hang it up, but right now I'm rolling, I'm telling stories. I'm gonna still, I don't think people understand. I think my family understands. They're like, Dad, why are you doing comics? I don't need to do comics. I do it because I love telling illustrated stories. I love the very specific dynamics of the illustrated page, the language of panels. There's a reason why certain books land with you more than others. And it was my eyes were open to it as a young

Kid I had some great guys in the business who opened up their kind of bag of tricks to me I said Rob, it's this and this and this and I've shared as much as that as I possibly can but for me I've got a new book. It's called well, I've got an I've got a I'm revisiting young blood which launched image comics, which again, yeah image comics was as you've said, Todd and Jim, we were at the biggest earnings, most success of our entire career. And you know, we were literally each making millions of dollars at that, at that time in com from comic books and decided, why don't we reinvest in ourselves? They all had wives and families, kids. I am 24 years old, single, nothing holding me back.

I'll try anything. So I said, I'll go. I'll go first. You guys are all very, very uncertain about this, but I'll do it. Youngblood came out and was alone for three months because they had to catch up because they're like whoa Liefeld just sold a million copies of Youngblood number one what? So the 33rd anniversary of that will be April 16th. I'm going back up to the store in Los Angeles that hosted the original

Youngblood signing. Oh that's cool. And so it's really fun. I just I understand about retirement. I don't think I'll ever be retired in my mind. But as far as I can write, writing doesn't take the same as art. Art beats your hand up. I see people do digital stuff all the time and they've got all these tricks. That'll never be me.

I literally, I have to have the paper. I have to have the pen, you know, on the Bristol board. So I'm just gonna keep doing comics, Sean. It's what I love and I love giving them away. Like when these come in, these editions, I just go, oh, I have a bunch of gifts I can give away. There's nothing better than giving your art to somebody. You know, you've written books, you give books to people.

It's fun. Hey, I wrote this, read it or not. Put it on your shelf, whatever. I wrote this. It's fun sharing your expression. And comic books are my expression. You know, there's there's all sorts of stuff that I made an image that is that is that is moving ever so closer in the world of film and television.

But I don't control any of that. I don't control any of that. And that world is getting harder to navigate than ever because nobody wants to nobody wants to be wrong. They they have to have a hit, they have to test market it, test group it, and if some test market group in Arizona didn't like it, it's crazy now. The movies that we grew up loving would never get made, and aren't getting made, because it's different.

The corporations are very much navigating that. But I'll keep telling stories until I, you know, croak. So one of my favorite artists, we hired him to do an issue of Supreme. He was, his name was Kurt Swan, and he had drawn Superman for 30 years. And he, the decorated, there's a writer called Alan Moore, super critically acclaimed.

He had asked for him specifically, we hired him. He died Drawing an issue of supreme his family called us about a week later and said hey, I'm sorry My dad really loved drawing that and he died on his you know Your stuff was on his drawing table and I'm like we did not cross that line. We didn't say could you send those to us? And we all talked about in the office, wonder what those look like. But like in my mind, I tell my wife,

I would love to die at the drawing board. I would love to die at the drawing board. It would be great to be like, oh, I'm done. So yeah, no one's heard me say that. So you got a confession out of me. I hope that I die at the drawing board. Sean, thank you for having me. I hope that this was the incredible bottle of insanity

that you didn't know it was gonna be. Okay. Oh, I was hoping for this. From the moment I've listened to your podcast, I knew you not only could tell a story in comic books, but I'm like, this guy can tell a story. You understand how to draw people in and do the drama. You do a lot of good work.

So I'm grateful. I really appreciate you carving out time. Hey, thanks for tuning in. This has been such a treat. Check out the podcast Rob's Surveys to follow about twice a week, Rob posts there, the comic world, superhero world. That's one of the podcasts I listen to.

Make sure you hit subscribe here. We've got some other conversations coming up, but I would love to know what you think about this format here, a little bit longer, sitting down in person with people like Rob and other Christians in different worlds. What do you think about this? Do you want more from me in this realm?

We're trying out something new here and would love to know what you think.