The Sean McDowell Show - Demonic–Or Something Else? My Son's Chilling Encounter.

Episode Date: September 26, 2025

Today, I sit down with my 21-year-old son, Scottie, to briefly unpack a startling street conversation in New York City. While running a “Change My Mind” table at Union Square, he met a self-described Satanist who reached for tarot cards when asked about the identity of Jesus. According to my guest Steve Dabbs, author of "When Demons Surface," this was a genuine demonic encounter. We show part of the encounter, and then analyze the experience through the lens of scripture. READ: When Demons Surface: True Stories of Spiritual Warfare and What the Bible Says about Confronting the Darkness by Steve Dabbs (https://amzn.to/4pCVA2a) WEBSITE: www.SteveDabbs.org *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: @sean_mcdowell Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

Looking for a simple way to stay rooted in God's Word every day? The Daily Bible Devotion app by Salem Media gives you morning and evening devotionals designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you connected with scripture. Plus, you'll enjoy Daily Bible trivia and humor, a fun way to learn and share a smile while growing in your faith. Get the Daily Bible Devotion app for free on both iOS and Android. Start and end your day with God's Word. Search for the Daily Bible Devotion app in the App Store or Google Play Store, download it today. Did a demon surface when my son was evangelizing a Satanist in New York.

Could you tell me what the gospel is? No. What Jesus said. My name is Scotty, by the way. I'm first going to bring on my 21-year-old son to briefly discuss what happened. He tells me that he's a self-proclaimed Satanist. And at this moment, I remember just praying for this man's soul. Then I will show you the clip. And then we're going to break it down with my friend Steve Dabs, a military chaplain, pastoral care counselor, an author of the important. book when demons surface. Scottie, thanks for coming on and be willing to talk about this. Thanks for having me on, Dad.

So tell us, what were you doing in New York? Because you're a student at Biola. That's a long ways from Southern California. Yes, so I had an internship this summer with the Center for Truth and Love. The head guy's name is Ben Shetler, and he invited me out to New York to do street interviews. We got to interview people, and one of the things we did was we were at Union Square Park, and we set up a change-my-mind table. So Ben sat there, and we had camera crew filming us, and the, the

question was the Bible is 100% true changed my mind and we had all types of people come flood want to talk and my job was we had another camera crew following me and I would enter like I guess you could say talk to the people who were in line and when I was talking to this guy in line this guy cuts over he introduced himself as Jason and he tells me that he's a self-proclaimed Satanist and at this moment I'm like whoa okay this is very different from just talking to somebody from New York like there's this a spiritual battle to be honest with you I'm still a little oblique as to what's going on. And I remember sitting there talking to the guy and he just, he starts speaking in another

language. He starts grunting. And at this moment, I remember just praying for this man's soul. And ultimately, like, it was the craziest thing to me was when the man didn't do anything. He just was talking. But the second that I said, Jason, do you know who Jesus is? It like was a switch in his brain. Something went off that just switched.

And I think my biggest takeaway, I would say, from the entire thing was something that your co-professor said was that say things you know that are true about Jesus. And in that moment, the time that I said Jesus, it was like the name of Jesus is so powerful. Truly is. Have you had an encounter like this ever before in your life? I've never had an encounter like this ever. And I remember even during it, I was like, oh, like that was really interesting. It wasn't really until after I watched the footage and went, oh my gosh, what just happened. That's pretty amazing.

Do you, you've had time, and this has been a few months since this happened. Do you think it was demonic? How confident are you looking back at it now? I'm really confident that it was. I remember sitting there, you know, especially after I watched it. In the moment, I remember one of the profound things that happened to me was I wasn't scared. I had the Holy Spirit with me. You know, Romans 1-16 says, you know, for I am not ashamed of the gospel.

Like, we're not supposed to be shame. There's power in the name of Jesus. And I wasn't scared. Now, watching it back, I'm like, dang, I probably should have been. Like, I put my hands on him. I don't know what could have happened. Like, I could have gotten seriously hurt. I know that the Lord was watching over me.

And had an angel next to me. So, yeah, I'm pretty convinced that that was a supernatural encounter. Well, I agree. Super proud of you for doing that, man. Thanks for coming on describing it. We're going to take a look at the clip. And then Steve Dabs is going to break it down for us. Awesome.

Okay. So I'm like, I'm trying to like understand. Could you tell me what the gospel is, what Jesus is? I got to check my map. Shit. Yeah. Um, um, I'm worried. Um, I feel like, I'm not, um, my culture is.

Sure, let me. Oh, shit. You're right here, Jason. You're right here. I'm right here. My name's Scotty, by the way. All right, please, Scotty. Steve, you had a chance to take a look at the clip. I sent it to you.

Give me your initial takeaway from viewing it. I think Scotty experienced the demonic manifestation when he shared the gospel with the Satanist. Okay, all right, let's break that down. What you mean by a demonic manifestation? And what were the signs in this case that you think that actually happened? pretty unique here because basically what scotty does he asks him two questions first he asks him about

the gospel you know what does he believe about the gospel and then uniquely he asked him what does he believe about who jesus is that's what he said and so when he asked the question the the guy who's a self-proclaiming satanist actually reached into his pockets and he referred to the tariff cards as a map Well, actually what he did, probably unbeknownst to himself, he actually employed the test of 1st John 4-1. And typically that will generate a manifestation, a demonic manifestation, because in 1st John 5 of 4 and 1, it talks about us testing the spirits to determine whether or not they are from God or not. And normally it's a test of Jesus' deity. So the Satan is what he does through the tarot cards. He tries to use those to access information from the unseen realm to answer Scotty's question.

And as a result of that, that's where you see now he's having the vocal cord problems. Now he's having consciousness loss. And then he turns around. He's actually having a conversation with an invisible entity right behind it. And so when Scotty shakes his shoulder, the guy comes to, and I believe, maybe the regional spirit that was he was having a conversation with behind him, told him he needs to get out of there. And so that's why when it comes to, he just says, okay, bye.

He just walks away. Now you said things like regional spirit. People are going, what is that? We will come back to that. But have you had any other encounters like this? Like you're speaking about this, like this is not unique. This kind of fits with the kind of encounters that we see biblical. you have personally encountered. You have a number of stories about this, three in particular

in when demons surface. Tell us two or three other encounters like this that also kind of convince you that really is a demonic manifestation taking place. Absolutely. I would say that when Scotty asked the question and the guy decided that he was going to use a terror cards to give him an answer, that triggered what we call the test of first shot 4-1. And that's probably why you saw the manifestation. Had he not done that, you probably wouldn't have seen that. So I have cases where mediums, for instance, they believe that they are being informed by a spirit guide. And if I employ the test of first shot 4-1 and they ask the spirit guide, what do they think about Jesus, they normally get a very adverse reaction from that entity. And so I've had cases of that

happening. Some of them are very bizarre to the point that, for instance, if a person believes that their loved one is coming back as a ghost and visiting them, if I have them to employ the test of 1st John 4-1, it never fails. They come back and they're like petrified. They have very bizarre experiences with these entities when they employ that test. So I believe that's exactly what happened in Scotty's case. Now, speaking of street evangelism and how I've had experiences in the past, it's not uncommon. I think I spoke one time about a young lady who was walking backwards

out of my office during a counseling session, and I asked her why. She told me that the demon in her was telling her to leave and leave now. The voice was very violent. I've had cases, I've got a colleague, a friend of my colleague in ministry, you know, pastor Anthony Shepard. They were doing evangelism in a public park one day. And so they came upon a young lady who was obviously very demonized. And so his friend decided that he was going to lay his hands on her shoulder and pray for her.

and she immediately scarred his, scarred his arm from the elbow to the wrist. And so a good example of why I don't believe in, if we know people are demonized, I don't normally lay hands on them. I do have colleagues that will do that. I try to tell them that the etymology of the start of that is actually out of the third century when they moved the ministry of exorcism under the umbrella of healing. And so now they started accompanying laying on hand. with that. But I'm quite certain that they do it carefully for those who try to utilize that as a part of their their deliverance ministry. There's another case, I'm sorry, go ahead. No, keep going. There's another case recently. I was a nonprofit organization reached out to me

because they've been having an experience with heavily demonized individuals. And so they reached out to me for support. So I made a local trip. And when I met with the person, it's interesting. I was sitting down talking with the young man and all of a sudden, he started losing consciousness as I was getting to the root of how these demons may have entered his life. And it got so bad that he actually lost consciousness, blacked out for a moment, and couldn't even remember my question. So when I look at the case with the Satan, that's exactly what you see. you see the you see him actually losing his vocal cordability you see him actually losing his consciousness and you also see him turning around and having a conversation with an invisible person

behind him that's really helpful that these are not just random encounters in random places but my son is evangelizing specifically encounter somebody who already has tarot cards in his bag identifies as a satanist asks him specifically about his beliefs related to Jesus, those are some of the factors that would cause a demon to surface. And you see these patterns in other cases similar to this one here. That's really helpful. Now, we're going to come back to how we should respond. Other takes on this, but I know some people watching this right now are saying, okay, can a Christian be demonized? Or do you take this as a sign? I mean, the guy identifies as a Satanist.

So in some ways, that's enough to say the person is not a Christ follower. But this kind of encounter, could this happen to a Christian? Could a Christian manifest a demon like this? I would say I tell people, because I know it's a controversial issue, I tell people in my research, the Bible doesn't say a Christian can't. And the early Christians said that they could. And so what I try to do is give a comprehensive answer to that in chapter 7 of my book. And if they couple that with chapter 6, the previous chapter, there's a story that I shared that is a good segue into that chapter.

And so I think that gets some good information if they look at that. Okay. So I want people to get your book. I think it's awesome. But just give us your quick take before we get there. And I realize, look, I'm a philosopher. I want to nuance things and give backtrack, and sometimes I give too long of answers for people.

But just give us a couple hooks kind of to hang on with a question of whether Christian can be demonized. I would say that, let me just say it this way, of all the people I've talked with, even one of the professors, he's a Hebrew Harvard graduate Hebrew scholar. He's one of the endorses of the book. One of the things we had to be honest about is that most of the people that come to us for help are Christians,

all professing Christians. Okay, so certainly, minimally, demons can attack Christians in different ways. And of course, all Christians are being attacked by demons through lies, right? That's one of the primary ways demonic activity takes place. Satan is a liar and a murderer. Jesus makes it clear in John 8. The real debate is about how exactly how much a demon, human can enter into the life of a believer and what exact effects they can have. That's where the

controversy comes into play. Fair enough. Okay. Now, I imagine I have a number of skeptics, atheists watch this channel, people of other faiths, and I love that. I'm super honored that all of them would watch it. Right now, they honestly probably think you and I are nuts, which if I wasn't a Christian and I was a naturalist, that would be my take if I shared that worldview. Now, as you describe, this man's actions line up with certain biblical phenomena about the reality of demons, how they manifest, what would cause a demon to manifest, with other experiences of people that you described. This is not uncommon. And yet in principle, all of these actions could be explained naturalistically. Like, it could be that he was faking it. And he saw some Christian who was doing evangelism as like, I'm going to go mess with this guy. Like, that's a possibility. Maybe he was mentally illicitly. Maybe he was mentally What would you say to a skeptic who's not convinced? I would say, is it possible that he was faking, it possible? Is it possible that he had mental illness?

It's possible. But I had a professor, he always used to say, all things are possible, but not all things are probable. Agreed. And so I would say that there are cases where things like these happen, and it looks just like what Scotty experienced in his, why he was evangelizing. Let me share a good story that may help. Well, let me, let me preface it with this. What people need to understand that the Bible talks about under the umbrella of learning,

there are three modes of learning. You got knowledge, which is the accumulation of data. You have understanding, which is experience-based. And, of course, the authors of the wisdom literature and the Bible would prefer that you gain as much experience, you know, understanding from other people's experience rather than your own. And then there's wisdom, which is having the ability to use accumulated knowledge and experience successfully and apply it successfully to life. There's just some things that people will not accept unless they personally experience it. So I understand that the audiences, whoever's watching this, they, if they have not had the

experience, then they're going to have some healthy skepticism. And that's why okay, even we see that. with Jesus himself, even the Pharisees, was skeptical with even his exorcisms. They said, hey, he's doing this by the power of Beelzebo, the prince of demons. So nevertheless, let me give you a good story. I had a young lady came to me a few months ago. And she was getting psychiatric support for bipolar disorder, anxiety, extreme depression, suicidal ideation. And looking for a simple way to stay rooted in God's word every day. The Daily Bible Devotion app by Salem Media gives you morning and evening devotionals

designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you connected with scripture. Plus, you'll enjoy Daily Bible Tribia and Humor, a fun way to learn and share a smile while growing in your faith. Get the Daily Bible Devotion app for free on both iOS and Android. Start and end your day with God's Word. Search for the Daily Bible Devotion app in the App Store or Google Play Store and download it today. For some reason, it just, wasn't working out for her. And she just said one day she was sitting up in her house and she said,

you know, I need to contact Steve Dabbs. You know, I'm very humbled when people tell me that, but I think it's God, it's God, the Holy Spirit just will pop my, you know, I don't know if it's from a YouTube video or someone else. My name, people tell me that my name just pops up sometimes. Hey, contact Steve Dabs. I believe it's a divine intervention in my, in my opinion. But at the end of the day, we're all unworthy servants striving to do our duty. And so she contacts me and we sit down and we talk. And I said, well, hey, are you willing to, are you open to the possibility that your matters could be spiritual? She said, yeah, she was pretty skeptical.

So what I did, I had her to, and I will tell, I won't mention which chapter. Sure. But I had her to read a chapter of my book that I knew would trigger if there was anything. if she was feeling with any demonic infestation, it would trigger it. So sure enough, she goes home, she reads that particular chapter. And the next day she tells me what happens to her. She says she's halfway down the page of the book when she has an instant norcalyptic spell. She has a narcoleptic spell and she opens her eyes in a vision.

and in a vision standing before her are two demons and both of them are declaring in unison that you are mine. You belong to us. And that's when she realized that her situation, although in the physical, natural realm, was manifesting as bipolar disorder, suicidal ideation, depression, anxiety, that it was spiritual. and we actually went through a series of prayers. And guess what? She no longer has bipolar disorder. She no longer has suicidal ideation. She no longer has depression.

And she no longer has anxiety. So here's a good example of how this ministry that Christ himself gave us is effective even for today. That's a helpful way to process that. I think for me when I see this story, I believe it. was a demonic encounter. Sometimes I asked myself, I was like, if I had to bet my house, yes or no, what would I do? And I bet my house on it. Now, why?

In part, because I believe the supernatural realm is real. I believe you have evidence that the Bible is true, that God exists, that there are a number of demonic encounters that are simply telling and convincing. And even angelic encounters have done a whole show separately on that. but there are certain kinds of encounters that are more evidential than others. So this encounter alone, I mean, the guy could be mentally ill. He could have been faking it. I don't know that we could ever find him and track this down and rule those out.

So I think it's evidential value is a little bit less. So I think of like near-death experiences. When people tell me they've had a near-death experience, I believe them. But some near-death experiences, when people have information, they couldn't have. They know things at a distance that were not possible in that state. There's a level of evidential value behind that. So if this guy started levitating, if he knew information about my son that he couldn't know, that would be the kind of additional information that could not almost possibly be explained naturalistically. So I think demonic activity is here. I think it's a part of a

larger case. But my take on this is we have to be cautious in terms of the evidential value from this alone. So admittedly, you and I are interpreting this through a certain Christian lens with belief of the supernatural. And quite remarkably, it matches on. So that's how I see it. I want to know what you think, Steve. One of the questions went through my mind is like, you know, why did this happen then and there? So we're going to get to that specific question. But you said something earlier that's been in the back of my mind that I've been thinking about. And you talk about some of your book, this idea of like regional demons who stationed themselves at places to interfere with divine ministry. Now, some people might be like, okay, Steve, I'm with you on demons if they believe

in God. But regional demons, what are you talking about? Are there any biblical examples of this? Oh, absolutely. We see that Daniel in Daniel chapter 6, he's praying and he gets a visit from one of the angels. And it states that your prayers have been delayed due to a war that they were having with the Prince of Persia, which was a regional demon in the area that they were doing battle with in the unseen realm. We also, in the New Testament, we see that the Apostle Paul is going and he's evangelized. And so in Acts chapter 16, he's out evangelizing, but he continues to get harassed by a psychic in the area who keeps proclaiming him as this one who brings the good news of Christ. And so he's being harassed by a psychic. And then, of course, in 1st Thessalonians chapter 2, we discovered that Paul, which is really, it even makes, it baffles theologians when they think about the fact that Paul says, I'm trying to visit, he's telling the Thessalonians, I made efforts to visit you, but Satan hindered me. And so we have biblical examples of Old and New Testament of demons actually doing their part to Himalien, hinder, disrupt, are in any way discouraged ministry.

And so those are three examples that I can think of right off my head. And I have a million questions about that. We don't need to lead into it. How could Satan hinder the Apostle Paul of all people? I don't have an answer to that. I'm writing this down because I'm starting this series on difficult Bible pastures. And I'm going to use our faculty at Talbot to answer them. Satan hinder Paul, man, I want to lean into that one.

I'm glad you gave me that. But that's sufficient to make the point that there's demons. For reasons, maybe we're not told we could guess we could piece together. And maybe this will draw out. So tell me why you think this demon surfaced at this time and at this place where my son was in New York. I think basically the guy being a self-proclaimed Satanist. And I think, again, I think what triggered it is when he sought, use the terror cards to ascertain the deity of Christ. That normally, in my experience, triggers a demonic manifestation.

So I had the guy just given an answer without using a supernatural means via the terror cards, Scott, it probably would not have had that manifestation. And so I'll give a good example. A lady came to me, she said her, her mother. was visiting her. And I said, well, actually the Bible tells us that when people die, that that the dust turns, returns to dust, the spirit returns to God who gave it. So I said, there are no such thing as ghosts. And so she was very, very angry. She was, she was adamant that, no, this was my mom. And I said, well, okay, I said, when your mom visits again,

ask her about Jesus. She said, well, I bet, you know, so we made an agreement she would do it. I think it was two days later. I mean, she was circling the chapel. And so she came in my office and I could tell she had been, she just put out a cigarette. So she was in panic mode. She said her mother visited her one again. And her mother was a very devout believer. And so the mom said, she said, she noticed that this is the third visit.

And her mother loved Jesus. And she noticed, hey, wait a minute. this is three visits my mom has not talked about Jesus. So she remembered my question, the test. She asked her mom, she said, what do you think about Jesus? And she said, all of a sudden,

her mother transfigured into something otherworldly. She said the skin peeled back from her scalp all the way to the side of, it fell on both sides of her. And she said, said what stood before her was the most hideous being that she had ever seen and it began to speak

blasphemous things about Christ. So again, I think in this particular scenario, had the Satanus just gave an answer, then you probably wouldn't have seen the manifestation. But because he inadvertently use the terror cards to ascertain and speak about the deity of Christ, I think that's what triggered that makes sense. Okay, so let's go a little bit below the surface again to see kind of what's going on here. So you talk about, and I agree with you, this is all over Colossians, that evangelism is a kind of spiritual warfare. What was going on beneath the surface, so to speak, that we can't see with our eyes or touch with our hands in that encounter? Absolutely. evangelism is an act of spiritual war.

We know this spiritually. Jesus says in Matthew 1618, he says, upon this rock, I will build my church. And this is how reason Greek, and the gates of hell shall not withstand it. A lot of English translations add against, but I think that kind of can take away from the potency of what Jesus is saying. the gates that Satan builds is he's building those gates to keep us out. And so Paul builds on this concept in 2 Corinthians 10 and 5, verses 4 and 5. He speaks about when we're evangelizing, that we're actually, he says, he says the weapons, he starts out talking about the weapons of our warfare. Now, journeying through these two verses are, it's worth the read. It's worth taking the time.

to really consider what is being said here. When we go out and we evangelize and we share the gospel, we do so in love and in peace. But in the unseen realm, it is violence going on. So basically when Jesus talks about the gates of hell not being able to withstand the marching and the advancement of his church, it's almost like we're taking a battering round

and we're knocking down the gates of hell. Paul uses the same imagery in 2 Corinthians chapter 10 versus 4 and 5 where he talks about the weapons of our warfare not being carnal. So the hint there is that the weapons he's talking about, he's talking about a weapon, and he says that not human. So what we already know from Ephesians 6 that this weapon he's talking about is the sword of the spirit, which is the, of course, Word of God. Now, and it uses it here, and the weapon is plural in 1 Corinthians 5, I mean 1st Corinthians 10, but we know that the plural, he's talking about swords, plural, that we're wielding swords. All of us have a sword. Well, we know the Bible defines itself as a sword.

Now, a lot of times when people think about sword, to think about the lone, you know, classical sword that we see in these dueling matches, but the particular Greek word actually is dagger. So when we're quoting scriptures, when we're waving our Bibles in the unseen realm, we're wielding a sword. Do you even see that in a violent way? And so notice also if you continue to go down and look at the verse, I'm just going from memory. He says the weapons of our warfare are not coronal or they're not human,

which means they're inhuman. He says, but he also says, says the weapons of our warfare. He used the same word in 1 Timothy 118, where he says, and the Greek is in the present active imperative, which is a continuous command, continue to fight the good warfare. The word warfare is Stratio, and it's when we get, it sounds similar to the word for English word for strategy. So when we're talking about evangelism, of course that entails apologetics, that apologetics in and of itself

is a strategy of spiritual warfare. And it makes sense as you logically work your way through the text. It says that we're tearing down strongholds and we're tearing down reasoning that opposes the truth. And also we're making it. And look at the word he uses.

He says we're taking this, we're confiscating. He uses the word. were captive, we're taking captive these unbiblical thoughts and we're making them bow to the obedience of Christ. So this is this is warfare language. Now one thing I want to go back is the word that's in Greek used about tearing down is used twice in the various, I think verses four and five it uses twice tearing down. And it noticed that the object of the tearing down is in some place, in some English translations, it says fortress, or I may say stronghold. Well, actually, in one lexical reading, it's a fortified prison full of captives.

So in essence, what's happening, if I can use Scotty, Scotty is standing in the scene realm. He's peacefully standing before this Satanist as a freed captive. talking to a still a person still under demonic captivity and so what's happening is in an unseen realm there's an intersection between the kingdom of light and the kingdom of darkness

and so as Scotty is speaking about the truth. Need a daily spark of hope and direction? Let the Daily Bible app from Salem Media be that spark. This free Android app delivers an uplifting verse each morning, plus reading plans, devotions, and trusted podcasts from leaders like Joyce Meyer and Rick Warren. Prefer to listen instead? The Daily Bible app reads verses, reading plans and chapters allowed handy for the headphones moment of your day. Choose from versions

like ESV, NIV, NIV, KJV, and more, and bookmark favorites to revisit later. Share inspiring messages with loved ones right from the app. Feel God's presence in every notification. Search for Daily Bible app on Google Play and begin your day with hope, purpose, and peace. Of Christ, he's waving this dagger that is threatening to the demons that are being inhabited in this Satanist. They're threatened by it. And what Scottie is trying to do, he's actually trying to free a fellow captive from the kingdom of darkness. And so demons see that as a, again, you're tearing down the way. walls or the gates of hell, what we see is peaceful in the unseen realm is violence happening.

So basically, it's no shock and surprise to me that if a person goes out and they're doing evangelism, they're sharing the gospel, they are actually doing violence in the unseen realm. Jesus confirms this when he says the gates of hell should not prevail, should not withstand his church or the advancement of his church. And with Paul, when he speaks a warfare language there, he speaks of tearing down the walls. And he uses of, and he says human reasoning. So in essence, there's a lot of spiritual warfare violence happening in the unseen realm by merely sharing in peace and love the gospel of Christ.

Of course, that's why Paul talks about in Ephesians chapter 6, just the belt and the sword and the shield of truth and faith, and that we're engaging in spiritual warfare, not against flesh and blood. A couple things for our viewers and listeners, I should have said earlier. What are your thoughts on the clip? If you heard it or if you saw it, what's your takeaway? And stay away from just attacking people. Stay away from just outlandish stuff.

Give us your honest, take advance the conversation. If you disagree, tell us why. And if you want me to bring Steve back to do a whole show on Can Christians Be Demonized? We could spend an hour plus diving into that. Also let us know we want to be helpful here. All right, Steve, let's go back to kind of what's going on below the service. That was a really helpful kind of breakdown biblically of behind the scenes in the unseen realm, as Michael Heiser would say, the spiritual warfare that's taken place.

How is the death of Jesus for sinners, relevant to what happened and to how Christians should confront the unseen realm. I love something that Paul says. He says, Christ died for sinners from whom he was a chief, he was a chief sinner. And so, Scotty, by evangelizing that young man, that young man had a right by virtue of the death of Christ to hear the gospel of Christ. And so Christ, the reason why he gave us the great commission to go to the world and make disciples, the intention is we have an obligation from our Lord to go and make the truth available to all. And so when I think about what Scott is, first and foremost, you have to have a caring heart to do this.

It takes a lot of risk. It takes a lot of ridicule to put yourself out there and talk about. the God of heaven and earth and how much he loves you and trying to do the best you can to convince someone of the truth of the gospel and to convince them to submit to God's Christ's Lordship. It takes a lot of love and compassion to do that. And I've been a part of street evangelism in my high school years and also while I was in college. So I know how much compassion that takes. But it is a lot of work, and it can be, it can be scary at times. But nevertheless, one of the things I encourage people to remember that no matter how harsh some of those

conversations can be, Jesus wants us there on the front lines because he loves him so much. And he says in his word, he desires that no person perishes, but that all come to repentance. All of us were sinners for whom Christ died. And therefore Christ wants us to reach. out to those captives so that they can be set free as well. Amen. And I would also add the obvious point that death has been defeated because of Christ's death and resurrection. Satan has been defeated. He's given borrowed time right now. But his authority is secondary authority to Christ's authority, which he demonstrated in his sinless, miracle working, prophecy fulfilling, raising from the dead life and ministry.

Preach. Exactly. I'm going to hold back. It's tempting to do so. One of the questions, I mean, this really, this shook up my son in different ways. This is the first kind of encounter like this for him. You talk about what's called a binding, loosing prayer to end demonic interference. So I want my son to hear this.

I'm going to replay this for him. So he's got, but also other people watching knowing what an early. what I do in that situation. What is a binding, losing prayer? I think a lot of, a lot of people have, have had adverse reaction to, when we talk about binding prayers, because they've seen some extreme forms of,

in some denominations where they've either overutilized it or they have not utilized it correctly. But I will say that when I, when I was writing the book, one of the things that was very clear to me in archaeological discoveries, as well as ancient prayers, binding and loosing were active, were prayers that ancient believers actively utilized in spiritual warfare. So in the case where Scotty was talking with the young man, what he could have done, if he was able to discern that he was having a demonic manifestation,

he could have used the authority of Christ and say, I bind this evil spirit from interfering with this conversation and I command you in the name of Christ Jesus to give him back the ability of his body and the use and his his his his consciousness in Jesus's name amen and actually but in most in every case I've used it it actually works wow now it's important for people to realize this is not magic magic is just like tinkering with something for some effect, it's a kind of manipulation to get an end that we desire. This is calling on the name of Jesus Christ, a person who has all authority, Colossians tells us, in heaven and an earth, all created things, which includes demons, and that includes Satan. So this isn't magic. It's actually

calling on the authority that a believer already has within them because of who Jesus is and what he did and the presence of the Holy Spirit to act now. So amazingly, this demon surfaced at the question of who is Jesus. And so calling on the name of Jesus and his authority to silence and to bind this demon is the exact counter response to it. Really, really helpful. Now, you've had a lot of evangelistic encounters like this. My son is going back out. He's trying to drag me to go to New York with him next summer. I'm like, son, I live near LA. Let's go here. He's like there's something about New York and the people there, Dad, you've got to come across the country. So I'll probably go with him. But just really for anybody, even if it's not such a dramatic place like New York,

you describe a couple encounters in your office where this happens. What practical advice you have for people who are evangelizing to keep in mind in practice before even such an encounter happens? I think there's some wisdom to Jesus sending them out at least two by two. And so I also find it interesting that there may be some semblance to a reason why Jesus, when he sent them out to evangelize, he also gave them the ability to cast out demons. And so inherent or implied even in that practice is that Jesus anticipated that when they went out to evangelize that they would have some interference from demons, or spiritual warfare.

And rightfully so, if you're thinking about the fact that the unbeliever is interesting in a Hebraith thought as well as in New Testament thought is deemed to be a captive of the kingdom of darkness.

And so if you're going in, so in essence what we're doing, we're boldly going as members or citizens of the kingdom of light, we're boldly going into the kingdom of darkness and we're confiscating and we're freeing captives. And so there's some wisdom, first, some wisdom knowing that you're going out two by two

at a minimum. And secondly, knowing that you should be aware that there's going to be, you may encounter some spiritual warfare. I find it interesting that some people are even employing this. when they go out and do university debates. They're discovering that in one case, there was a lot of ruckus happening

and people couldn't even, the Christian leader or a speaker couldn't even talk or get a word out. But they started utilizing binding, losing prayers, which are ancient prayers, and all of a sudden, they have a docile audience where typically that was not the case. And so the unfortunate thing is because we're not,

aware of the historicity and our own biblical heritage, whether that's ancient Judaism or even early church, of the concept of spiritual warfare, we're not utilizing, or should I say, let me say it differently. We're not employing new covenant benefits that have been made available to us to successfully do the Lord's work. The way you frame that is really important. We're not employing resources we have. So we're not trying to get new resources. There are certain resources we have being a new creation filled with the Holy Spirit, living in the power of the resurrection. You know, Steve, people often ask me, what's my favorite interview of all time? And I've had some incredible interviews with Progressive Christians, agnostics,

atheist Christians. But hands down, it's my dad. Like, I'm just... just so biased, been interviewing my dad. And maybe three years ago, I just asked about certain stories in his life behind the scenes that people may not know. And I forget the university, but he shared a story with me when they were outdoors to speak. I'm guessing this, probably 70s, maybe early 80s. And they were, you know, he would speak to thousands of people. And someone pulled a huge truck up behind and was just revving their engine so loud that it was disrupting. And people, couldn't hear. And my dad said, I forget the exact words, but he said something effective in the name of Jesus stop. And the engine blew up right at that moment. And like the story just spread. People were like,

dang, what just happened? You know, and that's, that kind of thing adds a certain evidential element because it's the power to do so. And right at that moment when he said that, what took some boldness on my dad's part because if you say, you know, engine stop and it doesn't, you're looking around going, uh, maybe I don't have that power. But he said it and it happened. And that was tapping into the kind of power within us, which he calls the authority of the believer. Now before we keep going, folks watching this, if you've had an encounter like this or seen an

encounter like this, tell us about it in the comments. Now, please do so respectfully. Don't name names like just for the sake of protecting. people, but if you've had an encounter like this or seen one like this, write them down. I want to go through the comments and read them. I've done a lot of videos on near-death experiences, Steve. Every time I do one, dozens and dozens and dozens of stories of people who feel like this has happened to me, I finally have a voice to share something and people aren't going

to think I'm crazy and insane. So I suspect this stuff is more common than we recognize. But I don't know that we talk about enough in Christian circles. I don't know that we talk about certainly not in our secular culture. People hide it because they think they're crazy. People will think they're crazy. And yet it's one of the most powerful significant events in their lives. So I'm glad my son had it on tape.

I'm glad we could talk about it and process it the way you're helping us here. I imagine some people right now are going, okay, we have power within us. We have the Holy Spirit, the person of Jesus. But this sounds kind of scary, Steve. I don't know that I could handle myself in that situation. It's possible some people watching this might be discouraged from sharing their faith, given that behind the scenes in the way you described it, it's like this battle with life and death and eternity at stake.

Any just final takeaways or encouragements positively for Christians from this? Absolutely. If I could add one other story, I love the one you shared about what you did add. It was a young man that reached out to me. He was having severe spiritual warfare. And so we scheduled that we were going to have a meeting early. You know, we had to match our schedules, you know, coordinate. And so we agreed that it's going to be early Saturday morning that we were going to meet.

And so I got up early that morning, fixed me a cup of coffee, waited for his phone call, didn't get it. I called, called him back. He didn't answer. And I realized then, I said, hey, I believe that I sensed that, hey, this is, I believe that this is an act of spiritual warfare where I think Satan is keeping him in a supernatural state of extreme slumber. I simply said, Lord of the name of Christ Jesus, I asked you to bind and expel any evil spirits that may be keeping this person in an extended place of slumber and loose him to awaken. with a sound mind and also with the ability to comprehend your truth today. In Christ's name, Amen. It wasn't 30 seconds. I get a phone call and the person said, I don't know what happened. I overslept. I was in deep slumber. He says, but all of a sudden, I woke up out of my sleep like instantly. And again, that's an example of utilizing an ancient. binding, losing prayer that we see practiced in the...

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Share inspiring messages with loved ones right from the app. Feel God's presence in every notification. Search for Daily Bible app on Google Play and begin your day with hope, purpose, and peace. In ancient Judaism in the early church, and verified by even archaeological discoveries. It's the timing of that, again, that's most telling like my fathers, that moves in the evidential realm. Now, of course, people would say, well, I can't confirm what happened your dad. I can't confirm the story you're telling. Fair enough, we're not laying that out here.

But there's enough stories like this of people who I trust. I mean, my dad, I don't trust anyone on the planet more than him that leans me strongly in the direction of like these things are happening. So any final just encouragements for folks moving forward practically sharing their faith and just encountering the supernatural realm? Absolutely. I think that one of the things you said, it could be scary for people. I could tell you, my experience has been the opposite. It's been exhilarating. Oh, wow. Great. When you know your new covenant rights and benefits, and you're aware of those, then it basically, you begin to employ those benefits in a way that brings glory and honor to Christ like you've never seen. case and point, we know this to be the case. You say, how can it be exhilarating?

Think about it when Jesus is talking with his disciples in Luke chapter 10. When they came back to Jesus, they didn't come back and say, oh, that was scary. Wow, I don't know if we could do this anymore. Instead, they said, wow, this is great. Man, even the demons obey us when we utilize your name. And Jesus had to tell him, hey, I know you guys are excited, high-fiving each other and, you know, maybe giving yourself toasts because you're excited about seeing how the power of my name worked to set people free and bring people into the kingdom of light. He says, but don't forget, the most important thing is that your name is written in the last book of life. Amen.

And so I would say to anyone, there's no way to get around spiritual warfare. Bible says we wrestle not against flesh and blood. He didn't say only certain people wrestled against flesh, uh, don't wrestling against flesh and blood. He says we all do. And so we're all in this spiritual war. Uh, of course, being that I have 35 years in, uh, military experience, you know, um, I would say, uh, the closer you get to the front lines, of course, you're going to have more, more combat. Uh, so I would say if you're doing street, evangelism, more likely you're going to be encountering people that are on the front lines of those spiritual warfare. Some of them are having thoughts that are not originating from them. They're being

tormented. So in those particular cases, you're going to run into people that need specialized or advanced support. Just know that in Christ, he is giving you power and authority. to utilize his name to set the captives free. And if you have questions on how to best utilize that, the fact that interesting about it, whether you understand it or not, whether you've been trained in it or not, as a believer or a citizen of the kingdom of life,

you still have this power and authority. However, you probably just need to be aware or trained and how to best utilize it. I'm reminded of Proverbs 1522. Plans fail for lack of counsel, but where there are many advisors, they succeed. So reading good books on spiritual warfare can make you aware of the rights and new covenant benefits you have and how to best exercise them. Amen to that. If people are watching, go on any more, two interviews in particular.

I recently had on Clint Arnold, who you know, Steve Dabbs, is one of my. colleagues at Talos school theology, maybe the world's expert on Ephesians and Colossians and on spiritual warfare, just wrote a whole recent second edition commentary on Colossians, which is all about the spiritual struggle. We talked about the demonic realm, the supernatural realm, Paul's unique angle. My interview with you, maybe year, year and a half ago, I think was really helpful. We leaned into the question of where do demons come from? What powers do they have? What's the evidence they exist today. How do we engage and encounter demons? That interview. And of course, your book I had you on because you are my go-to guy on this. Your book, when demon service is

excellent. I hope people will pick up a copy. But let me, kind of a final question for you. And let me kind of frame it. I'm curious if you think this experience is growing. And the reason you could have a selection effect is you said more and more people are calling you about this. But once I wrote a book on deconstruction, I started getting more questions about deconstruction. Wrote a book, an intelligent design, like years ago, started getting more questions on that. Now, for me, as I look at our culture as a whole, there's a renewed fascination in UFOs that sometimes takes on kind of a spiritual element and dynamic. We're leaning into psychedelics, new age practices. It sure seems to me there's a growth and there's some data to back this up, even within the church.

So do you think these kind of experiences are growing and do you think there's increased interest in the supernatural right now? Absolutely. I think scripturally speaking, Jesus says that in the end times, wickedness will actually increase, not decrease. So even Jesus, our Lord himself, declares that and predicts that wickedness would increase. We also warned in 1 Timothy 4 and 1, that people would fall away from the faith. And the Greek word is, I actually have the idea of hugging, embracing doctrines taught by demons.

And it specifically states the doctrines are taught by demons. And then, of course, the one that really, it just really makes me scratch my head every time I read it in the book of Revelation, where in the end times that 200 million demons would be released from the abyss. So 200 million, not 200, not 200,000, 200 million. And so we anticipate just from scholarly research and just theological discussion that there's no way when you do, when you take in consideration these scriptural truths. We anticipate that demonization would actually be not only would it end.

increase, but stronger spectrum demonization would increase. And so one of your good friends, Billy Holliday, Hollowell. His book playing with fire. I read that he did an excellent job of his comprehensive approach, how people talk about minor exorcisms and major exorcisms. I think my colleagues at Freedom of Christ Ministries, they would call them advanced freedom sessions. We're now discovering that people need advanced freedom sessions. They're now needing major exorcisms. Those are increasing. Or even if people use the language of deliverance, people are needing extreme sessions of deliverance. And those are the cases that I'm actually being consulted by now people are contacting me because they're running into cases where

there are stronger spectrum demonizations, and those need now advanced sessions or care. And so we anticipate that this is only going to increase. My thing is, and I've kind of chewed on this for a while, but if I could speak to any pastor of any church, and I have a number of them that contact me as well, I would say this, I give you about three years. And if the churches do not have a spiritual warfare ministry, they're going to now have a lot of problems with their congregants. Because a lot of the people that are coming into the church now are coming out of witchcraft, Satanism, DMT,

where they're using drugs to put them in an altered state so they can communicate with agents in the on-scene realm. These things are happening. They're dabbling in supernatural practices that were long forbidden in the Bible. And that in our Western culture, we had a biblical worldview that pretty much ensured that we had clear boundaries for those prohibited activities. but now I went into Barnes and Nobles a while back. They had a copy of my book in there,

but I had to go through a whole section on witchcraft and sorcery before I can even get there. And there was countless of teenagers in there reading through spell books, witchcraft books. And I don't think I could think of in my mind as I'm saying, this young lady, this young man is going to need some help later. Because most of the people that dabbled with that, normally later down the road, one or two things happen in my experience, they either start

hearing voices that are encouraging them to join the entity in the afterlife by a suicide pack, or they start having paranormal activity that they can't resolve. And so those have been the major issues that I've dealt with and that I continue to deal with. And I still consult with pastors, psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, therapists, even other professors of theology. I've had conversations with them as of late, and they're now trying to develop a theology or should I say an ecclesiology that now speaks to this reality. Steve, how can people get a hold of you? What I don't mean is that you'll answer every single question that comes.

Maybe you do. I get dozens a day and just literally don't have the time, but I try to help as I can. But people that are saying, wait a minute, you consult. Do you have a blog or you're on social media? What's the best way for people to track and get a hold of you if they wanted you to consult or follow what you're doing? The easiest way is to just contact me on my website, which is stevedabs.org. There you. dabs.org. And then they can also reach, they can send me an email through the website. And of course,

it's important that they go through the website because whatever conversations we have, they just need to, I just need some approval and permission to have that communication, open line of communication. And I do try, I do my best to get back to everyone that reaches out to me. And I can say, even though I'm now a retired senior military chaplain, I still do about 30 sessions of pro bono counseling and consultation every month. 30 sessions. That's remarkable. Well, thanks for being available.

Thanks for speaking into this. Your book When Demon's Surface is great. You mentioned Billy Hallowell. I want people to understand there's different lanes that people approach the supernatural. So Clint Arnold, again, my colleague at Talbot, he is a. a theologian and a world-class scholar specifically studying Paul. Billy Halliwell is an investigative journalist assessing like, do we have evidence that demons are real?

What are the accounts? What do we know about demons? You're approaching this. You have a master's in divinity, so good, solid theological training, but you're a counselor working with people. You're a practitioner, which is why I asked you to come on and assess this conversation. of folks, let us know what you think. If you want further conversations, how can I help more on this podcast, on this channel, on this question?

I've taken some criticism, but I'm leaning into the supernatural amongst other things because I think it's real. I think Steve is right that it's growing in the church. It concerns me more and more belief in reincarnation, more and more practice of astrology. That concerns me. But also we're seeing in the outside world an interest in. spiritual things. And then people come to the church from that background. So let me know, what can I cover here? What guests should I have on that would genuinely be helpful to equip the church and reach the lost? Folks, make sure you hit subscribe. We've got some other shows

coming up on this and a range of interviews. I'm so tempted to tell you about the exciting shows, but I will just hold off. We have massive plans this fall and into 2026 just to grow and expand the channel in ways we haven't before to ultimately serve you. So make sure you hit subscribe. You won't want to miss an episode. If you thought about studying apologetics, we'd love to have you at Talbot School theology in our master's programs. We have full classes on kind of spiritual warfare tied to New Testament theology, and we're adding classes on afterlife apologetics to be on the cutting edge. We also have a certificate program. If you're not ready for master's, but like I'd love to learn more, you can check that out.

Steve, you're the man. Thanks for coming on. Really appreciate your attention to detail, taking the time to watch us with my son, break it down how you see it and give us some practical steps moving forward. We'll do it again. Absolutely.

Hey, thanks, y'all for having me. God bless you. You're fearfully and wonderfully made. God looks at your heart, not your gene size. Do you know the verses yet still stress over your body? Oh, I get it. I was raised in church, but I struggled with food, eating disorders, and my body for decades.

I'm Heather Creekmore, host of the Compared to You podcast, where we talk about all things body image and comparison from a biblical perspective. We get real about the pressure to focus on appearance in a culture where looks seem to matter most. Whether you're wrestling wrinkles or battling the scale, compared to who is the show for you, you'll laugh a little and be encouraged a lot. If you're ready to stop comparing and start living, visit lifeadio.com to listen and subscribe.